Tips for Central Dust Collection
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 4. 10. 2017
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Once youâve invested in a dust collector for your shop and are considering setting it up as a central system, be sure you educate yourself about the best practices for piping the system in. This video will go a long way toward helping you keep your system efficient.
Itâs in the details:
Creating an efficient central dust collection system is all about the little things. Youâve got to pay attention to the small details to get the system to do what you want it to do. What type of fittings should you buy? Can plumbing fittings be substituted for dust collection fittings? Should you seal the joints? Where should you use flex hose instead of rigid pipe? What type of flex pipe is best? Whatâs the best way to reduce the diameter of the pipe? This video provides answers to these questions, and will help you make your system efficient.
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Elbows, Tâs and Yâs:
Woodworkers often use the wrong fittings, and this adversely affects their dust control system. Elbows need to be the correct radius, based on the diameter of the pipe theyâre connected to. Tâs arenât great, Yâs are a better choice. The video explains why.
More tips:
If youâre looking for more help on installing a central dust collection system, and keeping it efficient, have a look at Paul Mayerâs article that provides a simple approach for dust collection ducting.
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More info:
For more information on Laguna dust collectors and Laguna cyclone dust collectors visit www.lagunatools.com or www.lagunacleanair.com or www.lagunatools.ca
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Just wanna say, I'm in the HVAC industry, its a pet peeve of mine how people turn elbows to "45 degree" elbows by only turning the two ends. This ends up making a sharp 45 turn, you are infact making it an even smaller radius by doing so.
The trick is to turn all the seams of each gore of the elbow together. The closer they get together the straighter the elbow gets.
This makes the Elbow have a much more efficient and smooth turn, rather than a sharp 45 turn.
I hope that makes sense.
The best tips which I have found in the internet! Well done! Thank you for your patience and excellent explanation for every bit of components selected and used! Hats off and woudl be great to see you again with other tips! Nithi from Germany
Just getting ready to install a dust collection system. Thanks for all this accumulated knowledge. I have a smaller system in one garage bay, so will use the metal hvac stuff.
Of all the dust collection videos on CZcams, this was the most informative for me! Thank you!
Thanks so much!
Oh man I love how you explain stuff. Loved the on ramp analogy. Thanks for the lessons.
I have the Laguna 1 1/2HP 2 stage Dust Collector and it's Awesome one really nice feature is how easy it is to empty your barrel, performance is incredible.
Good for a 400 sq foot shop?
Sean Henry Definitely thatâs about what I have for shop space.
Sean Henry Let me know if you need help in your shop, over the years Iâve made some really bad decisions on some the tools I bought lol. Take Care and you can always reach out.
Just as a talking point it is recommended that you have a minimum of 24â of straight pipe coming off the dust collector intake prior to any fittings because in a cyclone system the fitting too close to the intake will cause turbulence and reduce effectiveness of the cyclonic effect
very handy video. thanks for sharing
So glad I watched this before putting mine together
Excellent video.. very informative!!
very helpful, thank you!
Thanks good information and explanation
Great information thank you.
This was amazing
Thanks! I learned so much!
good presentation, many a truth presented.
Great video thanks
Check your local HVAC supplier as they may have thicker gauge pipes for the same price or better than the equivalent PVC. I did and my total cost was a decent bit cheaper than the PVC at the local home centers. They even had 5" pipes which were perfect for my Super Dust Deputy.
Thin-wall sewer and drain (SD) PVC is readily available, lightweight (kind of), cheap, and effective. And long-radius bends and wyes are available, though usually by special order (next day at my plumbing supplier). I use the Super Dust Deputy with 5 inch inlet. SD PVC has no 5 inch fittings that I know of and I almost reduced to 4 inch, but decided to increase to 6 inch for my main runs. Simply amazing what that does for airflow! I use aluminum blast gates with the PVC pipe, and with constant use for a couple of years have seen no evidence of static buildup.
I think mines use that.
Thanks a lot !
Thank you very much.
Just for information: Electrical supply houses have PVC in different diameters and schedules all with sweep fittings that are perfect for dust collection. You even get a choice of long sweeps or short ones. A nice system of different types of hangers that fit perfectly also makes for a professional installation. It is my experience that you better be packing a fat wallet before you even venture inside a HVAC facility! The other thing to keep in mind is the conduit fittings sweep or otherwise mate up with PVC that is available in your other outlets. You can also use a heat gun to judiciously apply heat and bend PVC without fittings. The frustrating part is trying to get adapters that actually fit different manufacturers as they all seem to make completely different fittings. Different sizes, some tapered, different tapers etc. etc. Take care. Doug
George, Very informative. Where were you a year ago? LOL! I would also add that tape for ducts is now available which is a metal foil. The issue with the optimum spiral pipe is the cost. And large pvc elbows ( beyond 4 inches) are very expensive in comparison. By the way nice cyclone. LOL! The cyclone too has a lot of physics behind it. In HVAC blowing air is different from sucking air. There are a lot of erroneous CZcams videos, and like yours some very good ones.
I have a small question
When using spiral ducting, do U need to use foil tape where the pipes connect or is it a tight enough seal to not need it
Instead of caulking the gores on the HVAC adjustable bends use foil tape it seals and if you need to change and angle remove the tape, other wise you may have burned an adjustable bend.
Seek out local HVAC suppliers I have a Supper Dust Deputy that has a 5 inch port. I found 5 foot lengths of 24 gauge HVAC pipe for $5.00 each Home Depot wanted $7.57. The bends / adjustable ones at HD $8.00 five inch. Local HVAC supplier $1.98 each.
5 inch PVC can be found at well driller supply houses but I have not found reasonable priced fittings in West Texas or any where else.
I always stay large as long as I canâŠgreat tip!
Hi.. Great video. Any idea where I can purchase clear 4" flex hose with the smooth interior? I keep finding hoses with interior ridges. Thanks!
Hi Steve. I've never seen it with perfectly smooth interior walls, but there are
degrees of smoothness. I use this stuff and find that it works well and
is economical. amzn.to/2SKwSMB
If you want the smoothest possible product, I'd check with these
guys as they carry a bunch of options. They also have great metal blast
gates that I've been using for years. www.blastgateco.com/Flex-Hose.php
Can this be used for bodo or filler type of dust.
Please can you tell me what type and model of filter is for cement or concrete dust. when doing a polish. thanks
Best option is to use the standard thin gauged cheap pipe and install a clog gate for lack of a better term that would automatically open if the flow is restricted past a certain point thereby preventing the pipe from collapsing.
There is an implied theme in your video and many of the comments below, that bigger pipe is better. More CFM s (cubic feet per minute) of airflow... but I beg to differ. In dust collection one must be concerned with velocity of air moving through the pipes and at the entrance to the pipes. The "capture velocity" at the tool end of the dust collection system must high enough to capture the dust and the velocity inside the pipe must be high enough to keep the dust particles suspended in the air and moving to the point of collection. The pipe size needs to match the fan. For example, a 6" pipe on a system using a small shop vac will not work well due to low air velocity.
Jack Gutschenritter true, but that math is factored in by whoever builds the Dust Collection unit. In this case, Laguna knows that an 8â tube is best, therefore, thereâs an 8â opening.
I'm tempted to use a cyclone for the big shavings and then simply do away with the collection bag on my dust collector and hook up the output from the motor direct to ducting and vent it all outside through the wall - like a horizontal dust chimney. Its VERY windy where I live almost every day of the year - I'd be surprised if a speck ever hit the ground on my property and we're rural and remote. You think that's viable?
i was planning the same thing in my shop, for the same reasons. nobody around the exit of the air outside the shop for a hundred yards, and it tends to be wet. Would seem to be quieter, cheaper, more compact, and easier. I do not make sawdust more than 30 days a year anyway
Yours is a reasonable plan. An appropriately sized cyclone will separate all but trace amounts of sawdust, so direct venting wouldn't be a problem (unless it's against some sort of code in your jurisdiction).
A bigger downside of your plan if you heat and/or cool your shop is that any conditioned air will be exhausted along with trace dust...and rapidly!
Do you have any suggestion on how to make my iVac switch work with my Laguna Pflex1?
Where did you get those big dust collector
I have a small shop with a wet dry vacuum. Can I use the hvac piping for my approximately 24 ft run plus drops?i feel as though my wet dry has much better air flow than my 2hp Reliant 820 which is set with original dust bags.
Hi Gordon,
It is not likely that you will get satisfactory collection through duct runs that are that long using a shop vac.
Thanks,
Paul
WoodWorkers Guild of America Video Membership
I need some, my garage's air is too full of dust for my allergies.
I prefer galvanized HVAC tubing especially in the current market... 6ft of 6" Galvanized snap lock tube is about $2.15 per foot where 6" PVC pipe is $4 to $6 per foot, plus you have to either already have copper wire for grounding, or buy copper wire to ground it. Pricing is a bit closer together for 4" PVC Vs. Galvanized, but the galvanized is still winning out right now. While PVC long sweep fittings are perfect for dust collection, you can find galvanized fittings built almost identical to dust collection fittings.
Of course it's the fittings where things start to show promise with galvanized... 6" PVC wye (has more of an angle than a tee fitting) about $70 Vs. "Full flow" galvanized wye $30. 6" PVC long elbow $60 for a shorter one, $120+ for longer one, Vs. $24 (with tax & shipping to my house) for 6" galvanized long elbow which is about 1/2 way between the shorter & longer PVC long elbows... If you stick with galvanized fittings for most everything, then switch to steel spring wire wrapped expandable hose for machine connection, you don't have to worry about grounding.
Of course with Galvanized, you do have to seal all seams with mastic, and foil tape to ensure no leaks.
Can you put this into a home furnace system? Right before the intake. Knock most dust to the ground then let the rest run through the furnace filter? I know when you impede a furnace it loses efficiency but perhaps things could be sized for that in mind?
I purchased the Nordfab piping designed specifically for my shop. I found two issues on my install; first , when i use the clamps to put the system together I almost have to stand on the clamps to get them to close, not at all what I see on various videos. I see you on a ladder using just one hand to snap them closed. Second once I cut the piping to make a shorter run to fit my space the "nipple" does not fit into the next run of pipe, its 7 inch going to 7 inch. The videos show the piping just sliding into the next piece, what am I missing?
Rich, unfortunately, our experts haven't worked with this product. We suggest contacting Nordfab directly to see if they have any advice for you. If you have any questions, send us a message. Thanks!
A better option over silicone caulk is silicone tape. It is stretchy and only sticks to itself so you can wrap it around any joint to seal it completely, and easily remove the tape to take a joint apart for redesigning your system or clearing a clog.
Since PVC is an insulator, how does adding a copper grounding wire ground the entire system? Since PVC doesn't conduct electricity, It will only dissipate static in the area of the pipe where it makes contact, which is only a tiny section of the pipe. If wire is on the inside, the outside has no means to dissipate static build up and vice versa. It seems like static will continue to build throughout the rest of the system. In theory if you wanted to ground a PVC system you would have to wrap the entire pipe (inside and out) in copper wire or foil tape before grounding would serve any benefit.
What are your thoughts?
Iâve never understood how anyone could believe that you can effectively âground â an insulatorâŠâŠ.
I forgot to mention look for HVAC Fabrication shops, I wanted a 5 inch X 4 inch tapered Wye with a 3 inch side port. This will be used for a 5 inch main plenum reduced to 4 inches via a 1 foot taper that goes to the bottom of my Table saw for D.C. The 3 inch goes to the overhead of the TS for D.C. $ 30.00. Think outside of the BoX!
I'm little confused on your statements about grounding on the flex pipe. The metal wire giving it rigidity isn't exposed within the pipe itself, it's contained within the plastic/flexible sheathing. If it's inside an insulator and the static is accumulating inside the pipe, what is the point of grounding that wire? It's similar to people who are run wire along the outside of their PVC to ground it. It does absolutely no more than I'm seeing this would, unless I'm missing something.
You arenât missing anything. It is impossible to ground PVC, as it is a near perfect insulator.
@@Aethid Might want to use bare copper 14 AWG wire.. Easy to obtain.
Can you elaborate on the PVC grounding?
Hello,
You would run a copper wire through your ducting, connecting it to your tool on one end and your dust collector on the other. The theory is that this will capture the static and send it to ground at the tools.
Hope this helps,
Jean
Woodworkers Guild of America Video Membership
OK lets hold on a bit here. All the talk about efficiency is fine and true and Id worry about it if I was building a wind tunnel for an airplane. Yes all the science is the same but the flow loss is a cube root function of the air flow velocity and mass. The types of vacuum systems woodworkers typically use the air flowrate and mach number are low. Fundamentally for a hobbiest in a garage worrying over max vacuum system efficiency is likely polishing a cannon ball. If I was trying to optimize a multi-person shop that had multiple cutting machines running at the same time, to attempt to minimize the number of vacuum machines I had to buy then my answer might and probably would be different. For those of us that just move a flex hose around as we go from machine to machine a 16 ft, 4" dia hose is more than adequate, just keep the kinks out as much as you can. For those of you that are more semi-permanent 4" diameter piping with 3 or 4 elbows between the vacuum and the machine is perfectly adequate. The idea is to clear the dust, it isn't to get max vacuum system efficiency. Grounding is nice, again if I was running a multi-person shop with multi-machines operating Id worry about it. In my world of a hobbiest in a garage, static electricity on the plastic flexhose is all about the annoyance at having to periodically dust the hose off (wet cloth works well).Not mentioned in this, is the fact that most of the fittings elbows, tees, that we hobbiest commonly use are based on ODs and IDs of schedule 20 pipe. I live in California, I've also been to a few big box stores in Washington state and quite frankly schedule 20 pvc doesn't exist, everything is schedule 40 and doesn't work with any of the fittings, that are commonly used in woodworking. I'm told that the reason is that 4" schedule 20 was used in waste systems and the building codes been changed to schedule 40. Not sure if that's true but I do know that it doesn't appear to be possible to buy schedule 20 pvc in California, perhaps in the San Joaquin valley where irrigation systems are prevalent it may exist. What might be nice is if (a) someone did a video on alternatives because I doubt seriously the machine manufacturers are going to change their exhaust port diameters and (b) whoever manufactures the fittings came up with an adapter from 4" schedule 40 to schedule 20 machine port. I get really tired of duct-taping fittings.
Check into the DIY heat formed PVC transitions out of regular pipe. Several good ones on the Tube.
is metal tape air tight?
I was hoping you would touch more on grounding. How do I transfer the ground from the inside of my pvc to the outside and do I need to ground it to a 6' deep spike as someone has suggested? They're the same ones that are grounding PVC on the outside. HELP! I don't want to burn down my workshop.
If I use the 4" HVAC metal duct pipe do I still need to add a ground wire? I am using my HF dust collector in my powder coating business.
Hi Dave. No. If you use metal pipe there's no need to add ground wire. Thanks- Paul
@@Wwgoa Thank you.
Heyy what about the Angle of that tee
can the machine only purge when it stops?
Hello Mathew,
Yes, you would need to stop the machine to empty the barrel or clean the filter.
Hope this helps,
Paul
WoodWorkers Guild of America Video Membership
How do you do the math to know what size ducting to use for optimal suction and efficiency for the motor. I have a harbor freight 2hp dust collector. It has a 4â inlet. I want to buy a Oneida super dust deputy, but they offer it in a 4â,5â,&6â cyclone. Which one is best? So if I could do the math on unit to duct size I could figure out any arrangement. Can someone help direct me in the right direction?!?!?
I am working on this right now with my HF. I bought the 4â and 4â HVAC snaplock piping just because I have a small garage shop and everything is straightforward rather than reducing 5â or 6â down to 4â at each machine/gate. Says its good for 2hp or less. I am still installing but in hindsight the 5â improves airflow and then you use 5â ducting and taper it down...I just didnât want to purchase all of those reducers. Havenât tested yet, but its coming along with many visits to the hardware store to get all set up correctly
My main reason for asking is Oneida offer the 5â,6â separate and cost only for the cyclone. The 4â they sell makes you have to buy a whole kit and thatâs like 250 bucks or so and I donât want the kit, I just want the cyclone because I want to be able to have the custom set up I want and not this small container they sell that I will never use and itâs a waste of my money
Hi Jon. If the dust collection has a 4" inlet, I would go with the 4" option from Oneida. I can't think of any reason to go with a larger opening than that as you're not going to improve CFM by opening up wider than the dust collector's inlet.
Thanks
Paul-Woodworkers Guild of America
If I have a 4" dust collection port on my dust collector, will immediately transitioning into a 6" pipe help me at all?
Hello Jeston,
Thank you for contacting us.
No, it won't help you at all. Once it is choked down to 4", that is your limiting factor. CFM won't increase on the other side of that 4" port.
If you have any other questions, please chat, email, or call Customer Service.âŻ
Sincerely,
Paul
Wood Workers Guild of America Video Membership
Good info on the larger diameter duct and its relationship with cfm...but you are wrong about gounding. It doesn't dissipate static, it only provides an additional path to ground. "static" is called that because it doesn't go anywhere (like travel down a wire)..it stays "static" so the hose itself needs to made made fom conductive resins like carbon dust or conductive urethane. The idea of groundng to do this has been debunked. Call Flexaust and ask for info on static dissipating flex duct. Surface resisivity is measured in ohms sq, hat is how yo determine if the hose s conductive or dissipating. Gounding is a whole 'nuther thing.
I've been scrounging components for a "new" system in a shop with 12' ceilings. The collector is an old 7-1/2 Hp Torit with a 10" inlet and "submicron" cartridge filters. The inlet is 10' above the floor and it seems, which is to say I Imagine, that the 10" and 8" branches ought to run nearly level across the shop. Is that correct? All of the machines are within 22' of the collector with several dedicated shop vacs pulling through cyclones for the low volume machines like drill press, 14" band saw and a well-shrouded Festool miter saw. Stepping down from 10" to 8" for a 24" planer seems reasonable but what perplexes me is necking down to 6" for a 36" bandsaw and a 24" widebelt sander. Both are antiques with 6" ports. Even worse are a 12/14" table saw and 8" jointer both with 4" ports which I intend to open up to 5" mostly because I scored some used super high grade semi-rigid, smooth-inside 5" flex hose to make the transition to wyes branching into an 8" line in a trench. It seems like the air flow won't be nearly enough once the dust laden air reaches the big tubes. Will it create enough air flow to keep the dust moving if I leave one or two floor sweeps open? What kind of gizmos should I use to assess the performance of the branches and drops I piece together? Also, I have a really old 3/4" shaper with no provision for dust collection other than a 3" port in the fence and louvers in the cabinet door. Do I need to cut into the cabinet to contain the dust? Thanks for your recommendations.
Great question! I will ask one of our experts and get back to you here.
Here is the response from Paul: These duct and DC sizes are out of my area of experience. I would suggest working with a ducting supplier to draw up a recommend configuration for your shop. As far as the shaper, I'd suggest trying it as-is first, and then opening up the cabinet if you feel that it's needed. Ultimately, I believe that I would want to have collection coming from inside that cabinet in addition to at the fence.
Paul
@@Wwgoa Well, a few years ago, when I got the Torit, I asked the Denver rep for a replacement part, I forget what for. Though they were "courteous", they basically gave me the bum's rush. In my old age I've decided not to seek the free knowledge, to impose on people, trying to make a living. What about test equipment to do my own assessments of my Frankenblower?
Hi Mark! I've sent your follow-up to Paul. Please allow 1-2 business days and I will post their response here. Thanks!
I use a Dwyer digital manometer to measure air flow on my system. That said, I had suggested was that you contact a supplier who sells ducting. They can sell you the ducts as well as a plan to lay them out with optimal air flow for your configuration, so they would be making money on the advice that they give you.
Paul
Since HVAC is also about moving air efficiently why are their fittings so inefficient? You would think they would be engineered for good air flow and at least if space dictated you would have the choice of different short radius and long radius bends. Electrical conduit (NM) does have 'sweep' fittings which work very well for air flow in a vacuum system.
As large as you can? There must be a limit. I mean a 24 inch duct wouldn't have the flow to keep the particles moving, right?
I think he means up to the size it originates at.
mfiltration nice to meet
Into your Shap
I just gave you a thumbs up to counteract the thumb down that mike susman obviously gave you. It appears he didn't even bother watching this video before commenting, or maybe he had the sound turned off.
Plywood rings, (1/2" baltic birch with ring width of 3/4") every two feet on long lengths of large diameter cheap steel tube will prevent collapse. Baltic birch too rich? Make the ring width greater and use inferior scrap sheet stock.
Very good video but should be 1080P or 2160P in 2017. Content was really great! :)
As an electrical engineer who has experience studying the corona effect, I feel empowered enough to state that a home shop will never produce the necessary saturation of a combustible environment within the volume of any home dust collection system to cause an explosion or fire.
In addition, in a PVC system, you will never be able to incorporate the necessary "grounding" to prevent an explosion where the appropriate saturation level exist in the system.
Simply put, you do not need to ground a PVC dust collection system. If you wish to reduce those annoying and sometimes painful static discharge on PVC systems, feel free to wrap multiple times at the most common points of contact between you and the PVC with a conductive wire and then ground that wire.
And for those that want to try to rebuttal me because they think their Googling skills make them an expert in everything; no, the corona effect is not exactly what would occur in that volume, but I am knowledgeable enough to confidently make that parallelism between the corona effect and what's necessary to create an environment where an explosion or fire can occur.
I Tig weld. Occasionally get zapped. Itâs about a thousand times worse than a dust collection zap.
But woodworkers are doing the craziest mods imaginable to their air conduit lines. Snaking lines of copper on the interior, wrapping the exterior.
Itâs amusing.
I think I will just stay with my little shop vac and move it around from tool to tool to clean up. Sure there is a static build up, but I will just live with it. I would rather deal with a 5 foot hose then a 30 ft duct work. Keep it simple.
A shop vac and a dust collector (or cyclone) are not substitutes. As you note, a shop vac is designed to clean up a mess after it has been made. A dust collector captures the fine particles of dust that would otherwise be spewed into the air. Yes, this helps prevent a mess from being made, but the real benefit is that it reduces the amount of dust that gets into your lungs. The primary benefit from a dust collector is health -- a reduction in mess is just an additional benefit. And, no, a typical dust mask is not a substitute for a dust collector, either. A typical dust mask does not capture the very fine dust that causes real damage to your lungs. A decent dust collector will filter out sub-micron particles of dust. (A respirator can be considered a substitute for a dust collector, assuming you'll wear it.)
thanks for the advice. I do have an air filter fixed to the ceiling which does clear the air for my entire shop. I do wear a mask to help also. All the protection I can have the better. Thanks again. Tim
I do wear a mask when I sand and router wood as these are the biggest producers of dust for me. What I meant about the shop vac was to place the hose a close as I can to the cutting I am doing. It serves the purpose and helps out a lot more than if I don't do it. thanks for your feed back. PS: as an ex-smoker, my lungs are already screwed up. The mask and vacuum helps me from making it worse. Take care. Tim
I actually sell and design dust collection systems for a living and would never sell or design a system using PVC piping. One reason is the elbows and teeâs are all too tight of a radius and will greatly increase your systems static pressure which will make your fan work harder and a loss of suction the further the duct runs go out. As far as static electricity issues, I would mostly be concerned with aluminum dust which can ignite and blow up during the filter cleaning cycle on a dust collector or baghouse.
@Paul Cox that may be fine but if the system doesn't have the correct mainline velocity the dust and wood chips will drop out of the air stream until it gets to the correct conveyance velocities. You can download an app that I use called duct ductcalculator that is a great tool to calculate cfm, fpm, and to calculate static pressure.
For the naysayers who deny that wood dust explosions are âa thingâ... hereâs one. www.vancouversun.com/news/sawmill+blast+went+unreported/6550344/story.html. There are a dozen more examples for wood, and hundreds if you consider other dust sources.
No one is claiming dust explosions don't happen. What doesn't happen is explosions in home workshops - unless you are running a commercial sawmill in your garage! (The article is talking about explosions in sawmills). It is highly unlikely that a small shop could generate enough dust in a duct to support an explosion.
But that happened in America Jr. Not relevant here.
You cannot ground an insulator with a single wire.
Itâs physically impossible. Insulators donât conduct current, be it down the length or around the sides till it hits a wire.
I would like to know if anyone has suffered a fire from their dust collection piping.
Just let the dust fall and sweep it up later.
Grounding the pipe is a myth.