Christian rock and metal can be done well, it's just not music you'd sing in church. I could imagine a song where you surrender your frustrations and anger to the Lord, or something like fighting against temptations. It's not all about rebellion
Disagree. Lots of people sing rock music in church. It doesn't have to be screamo or anything. I'd totally sing it in church... Well... Actually my voice sucks... But I'd totally be down to fail at singing it in a church lol.
I'm fine with modern Christian music despite also believing beauty is objective. My issue is that a lot of the music tends to be generic, uninspired, and a clear and obvious attempt to nab cash from Christians. Also I HEAVILY disagree with the idea that just because the origin of rock means that rock can't be mixed with Christianity. Yes it originated during the rebellious phase in Americas culture. That doesn't mean it can't be used for Christianity. Rock in and of itself isnt inherently rebellious. Its a genre. If someone said "Mix history and Metal" twenty years ago people would say is ridiculous because those two things clearly dont go together. Rock is modern and up beat while history us boring and old. yet today we have bands like Civil War and Sabaton. If someone were to use Gregorian chants to praise Satan you obviously wouldn't say it's Christian simply because Gregorian chants come from Christianity. The message can be anything at all depending on who wrote it and what they wrote.
This is my biggest gripe with contemporary worship music. Too commercial. The second gripe is it often promotes bad doctrine. You really have to trust your church body and ministerial heads to utilize it.
"The foundation that we used to uphold Now regarded as the madness of old Every alteration made to the standard of truth Is a nail in the coffin we hold We embody everything they despise Because they see us through degenerate eyes So when they cast you down as intolerant filth Stand firm, never bow to the lies" - Relentless Intolerance by Demon Hunter
I dont know if you guys know Neal Morse but he makes great Christian progressive rock, that does not sound at all generic and was the first kind of 'modern' christian music that i truly enjoyed and that easily led my heart to worship. I really mean that, his music is superb to me. If you want to check something out, i'd recommend his Album 'One'. Also if you are into metal (symphonic, black, death..) my band Sanity makes christian metal. We are veeery small though. If you want to, check out our song 'Throne'.
Just finished worshipping at my Pentacostal church. I fully agree that there's a problem, but as I'm still 17 I don't have a choice but to be here. Pray for me to find a more traditional church when I turn 18.
I’m a 20-year-old protestant trying to find a traditional church to go to in Maryland, but I live far from them and I have no car. So you might have better luck than me, my Christ be with you.
My main issue with contemporary music is the lyrics. Not only are they less nuanced, rich and meaningful, but they also seem far more individualistic in message (in general). Because of this I feel as if I cannot glorify God to the same extent due to the reduction of depth in these songs. I don’t hate contemporary music (my church uses some) I just feel like there is a much better way to worship.
The lyrics have evolved over the years. Up until the mid 1990s the overwhelming majority of the lyrics of contemporary worship music were taken straight from scripture (primarily the psalms). Since that point, it's become much more common for them to be completely made up by the writer, so the quality and depth of the lyrics depends entirely on the theological knowledge of the writer. There are some writers who do write songs with comparable depth to old hymns (Stuart Townend being the first one that comes to mind), but most of the writers these days do seem to be more musician than theologian. Also, it's worth remembering that there are a *lot* of old hymns with lyrics that are not at all nuanced, rich, and meaningful. But the passage of time does a very good job of weeding out the dross. Once the novelty aspect of a song has worn off it needs to have either good lyrics or a good tune that isn't also used for a different song with better lyrics in order for anybody to want to sing it. Without any of those things it falls out of use and into obscurity. And since it's been rare for anybody to write new hymns during the lifetime of any of the people likely to be on this channel (I can only think of two living people who have written hymns, and both of them are also prolific writers of contemporary worship music) the chances of you knowing any of them are almost zero.
like southpark pointed out… you could just take a modern lazy love song and replace “baby” “girl” or “my love” with “Jesus” and you now have a modern Christian song.
This is exactly where I am on the subject. I find that the focus is far too much on the worshipper in CCM, and that the best worship music regardless of genre is theocentric. Because of this, I don't think genre is the real problem people like Redeemed Zoomer are making it. I think given time (I'm postmill), all genres will be bent in a way toward praising Christ, and the lyrics will be the true fruit judged in the end.
I feel the same way but usually was come next to my mind is the Psalms, David and the other authors of psalms used “I” a lot. Idk they seem similar at times
Respectfully, I don’t even know what the argument is here. If I follow it goes like this: 1. Worship music should be beautiful - Please give a scriptural basis for this. I tend to agree but not everyone might. 2. Beauty is objective not subjective - once again I would agree. 3. Contemporary Christian music is not beautiful - Why do you say this? Your argument here seems to be I don’t like it thus it’s not beautiful. It seems as if you assumed that everyone would agree with you on this point. 4. Contemporary Christian music started from a hippie movement - ok who cares. Does that make it illigitimate? 5. Contemporary Christian music is effeminate and Christian music should be strong - why? No scripture is given. “Would you go to a wedding casually?” No but worship music is not a wedding. Were you baptized in a suit and tie? I would argue that a baptism is more important than worship music, but most people probably don’t get baptized in a suit and tie. 6. The vibe of contemporary Christian music is treating God casually - No it isn’t. Most contemporary Christian music is reverent and thankful. Would be helpful if you have some examples here. 7. Contemporary Christian music doesn’t capture the holiness of God - Well it is quite literally impossible to “catch the holiness of God”. If you want to argue that contemporary Christian music isn’t holy then I would disagree with you. This whole video has absolutely no scripture given and comes down to your personal beliefs and opinions on contemporary Christian music. You don’t believe it is good or holy, but the person next to you might believe it is good and holy.
I agree that concept of music itself is objectively beautiful, but I can’t wrap my head around certain music object-fully beautiful or not beautiful, because EVERYONE’s taste and perception of music is different, and is going to react differently.
Disagree with you here, brother. Modern Christian temporary music can and has been holy & powerful in my life. It CAN be “casual”, if mistreated. But so can anything. As a modern non-denom myself, I do think classic hymns could be read and appreciated more. But the Holy Spirit can draw people into truth through modern music. Love your vids tho!
@@ninjason57 I prayed devoutly to the Lord to lead me to Catholicism if he wanted me to be Catholic. Lead me to Orthodoxy if he wanted me to be Orthodox. Lead me to Islam if that were the truth. But I was lead to a small, elderly congregational church where to this day I continue to grow in my walk, in my ministry in the way. If I have subjected myself to the Lord's authority, and he has lead me here, who can question? No brother of Christ lest ye claim to be judge.
I grew up in a Pentecostal church that uses contemporary Christian music and black gospel and I disagree. There is a lot of great and beautiful gospel music that is not effeminate or anti authority. Music that emphasizes God's holiness and majesty. Especially old gospel that were constructed in the 1950s-70s. Sure there is ccm rooted in the Jesus people movement, but there is also gospel music rooted in old hymns and psalms just with more upbeat music. Not all ccm and gospel is rooted in that Jesus movement culture. A lot of black Pentecostal churches like COGIC are very much traditional with hymns, but also uses a lot of gospel music and some ccm.
I don't think contemporary worship music has a single root. The Jesus People movement happened at about the same time as the Charismatic Renewal (where the use of spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues and prophecy jumped across from the Pentecostal movement to other traditions, and also started a bunch of early "non-denominational" churches. And that movement was a major source of this music. It was the Charismatics who started up the writing of contemporary worship music in the UK, and much of this had to do with the way they tried to structure their services around Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 (particularly verses 26-33). And they found that they needed a different style of song than the traditional hymns.
Just because rock music stems from rebellion against authority, it does not mean it cannot be adopted for Christianity. One can rebel against worldly authority, especially if that worldly authority is anti-Christian. A big part of Jesus's early ministry was rebelling against the authority of Pharisees. However, I agree that the big show-effects with smoke generators and lightshows and all those flashy effects are distracting from worship and should have no place in a church, and also I agree that a lot of contemporary Christian music is of low quality. But this does not mean all are. There are some good ones out there too. And don't forget, that Bach's works were "contemporary" when he wrote them, so probably there were people in his time saying the same you are saying now, that no modern music should be used for worship.
JSB was hardcore Lutheran, yes, but I remember an anecdote I read somewhere: some fool came to tell him that Catholics were using his music at the churches, he said that it was fine as it was for praising the Lord, if Christians use it to worship God, then everything is OK.
I think the main problem with your argument is that you come from the assumption that worship music could only ever be one thing and have a singular purpose. You say that worship music should be bold and strong, and I agree in part, I think music with those qualities has a place in church and it should be present, but saying that's the *only* type of music we should have is simply way too close-minded in my opinion. When I'm at church, sometimes I need to hear a bold and empowering song, that makes me think of the glory of God, of His power over everything, of triump over evil, of His Holiness, etc. But sometimes, I also need to hear music that takes me back to those dark times in my life that Jesus saved me from: the depression, the feeling of inadequacy, of mediocrity, of being unimportant, a failure. Don't misunderstand me, it's not because I want to go back to those times, but because I want to emphasize how weak I am *without* God. What you see as 'effeminate worship' I would see as recognition of my own weakness, and how God grants me the strength to continue on, the last part of Psalm 73 comes to mind. And I do not see it as a bad thing to break down in tears before God, as a child would before their father. For these purposes, maybe a hymn would not be the best, maybe a slow, modern worship song works better. Another commenter talked about Metal music and History, how they seemingly don't go together at all, yet Sabaton is one of the more popular Metal bands in recent times, and it got many (myself included) interested in learning history. Why couldn't we apply a similar principle to Christian Music? *Why can't metal, rock or hip-hop be Christian?* The origins of those genres do not determine what they can be used for, I do not study nor am I knowledgeable about classical music styles like you, so forgive me if my comparison is flawed; but imagine I composed something in baroque style that sounded horrifying and produced feelings of despair and terror, well baroque arose from Catholics wanting to show their church as more beautiful than Protestant churches, right? So I guess my composition is Catholic, despite it not at all insipiring feelings of holiness and beauty, because that's what the origins of the genre are. I respect your opinions and your views on theology and all things Christianity, many of your videos have changed my mind about my own personal beliefs, like the one about baptism (I used to have a more baptists view, now I don't). But I think that you are way too close minded on the way that we should go about our worship and congregation. Cheers and blessings from a small town in Argentina.
Hi, non-denom here. I just got back from helping at church camp, one of our main songs was Good Plans by Red Rock Worship. It’s loud, it’s scriptural, it’s emotional, it’s beautiful, and it’s all about not knowing but fully submitting to Gods plan for us and trusting it’s better than anything. A lot of the lyrics are out of Psalms 23. A line is literally, “we submit to Your plans” shouted out, ‘rock style’. If music is given to God and the lyrics are Biblical, it’s worship. I agree a lot of music seems to be some kind of blend of contemporary and worship, trying to pass off as both (I call that the Lauren Daigle genre), but my only issue is when lyrics aren’t Biblical. I stoped halfway thru this video cause I’m used to Zoomer’s unnecessarily hot takes on some topics, but I hope he hit on this. We reclaimed the rainbow, we un-paganizad nearly all Christmas traditions, etc. Rock and raps are styles that people were taught and grown up with. If they can take what they were taught by the world, and give it to God when they come to know Him, so good.
NGL I’m not a big fan of contemporary worship music but this is a piss poor argument. What was is now “traditional” music was once considered new and radical and not considered to be fitting of being in a church. Heck, there were arguments at one point on whether to even HAVE music in church and many of these things were influenced by pagan music. Zoomer’s argument basically just comes down to “because tradition and I like it”. Criticize his contemporary worship music all you want but make good arguments.
Paganism in Western culture had been dead for centuries by the point these arguments came about (pretty much the only remnants of it being astrology, the names of certain days of the week and months of the year, and a handful of cases where worship of a local pagan god had transformed into veneration of an identically named Christian saint many centuries ago). So no, this wasn't pagan music. It was secular music.
@@stephengray1344Martin Luther, on his bid to win more people for Christ, incorporated bar music into his hymns, and that was frown upon as 'incorporating the song of drunkards'. You can still say the same today.
Love your channel, but this video is pretty irrelevant/silly. 1) There's no indication of what music is objectively beautiful in the Bible. Therefore, the entire video is subjective opinions on the music you already don't like. 2) "You can't make a modern thing traditional". Firstly traditional ≠ objectively right (I.e slavery). Secondly, I'm sure Catholics said the same thing during the reformation. Could go on but the video feels less about theology & more about you feeling in the minority about liking classical music. If you want to talk about classical music just do it, no need to wedge in objective beauty ✌️
Agreed- even as a Catholic, contemporary worship is a problem in our denomination. The a capella songs and traditional forms of the mass are infinitely more reverent and spiritually fulfilling than the charismatic, evangelical-esque contemporary forms of the mass which are becoming increasingly common.
@@Skibidivm_Latrinae Said every Christian band, ever Yeah, the only one I've been able to find that ISNT like that but still is actually Christian is Flyleaf, but they have what, 5 songs?
@@MSKofAlexandria What about Sixpence? Their music is not all very singable, or suitable for hymns, but some are. They have disbanded, but the music is still there.
I get it, if you don't like the SOUND of modern worship music, that's fine, that's your opinion. We all have different tastes in music and what we prefer, are neutral towards, or actively loathe. But I will never tell someone who has been given a gift of musical literacy or a beautiful singing voice that the music they write and sing for God is "objectively bad", or shouldn't be played and make it out to be some modern tasteless garbage or something. Think about it, all the Phil Wickham's, Brandon Lake's, Brooke Ligertwood's, Cody Carnes', of the world, etc. would you rather they use the talents and gifts they've been given to sing and perform/create secular music in the secular music industry and merely be a passive member in their congregation, or would you rather have the current paradigm, where there are these incredibly talented young believers using their position and gifts to create original music that glorifies God and spreads His Gospel through out the world? Like seriously, what is so horrendous about that that you feel the need to make a 21 minute video complaining about it? God is moving through His people and His Gospel message is being spread to parts of the world that it otherwise never would've reached had it been left to you people confined to the four walls of your liberal-hijacked mainline churches. And even if you zoom in to the local level. Every Sunday, thousands of churches across the country have worship teams that gather together and volunteer half their Sunday away to serve and glorify God while playing music together and leading a congregation in worship. For many this an important time of fellowship and a bond/connection that they don't get anywhere else. Personally, I fall into this category. I've been playing electric guitar for the last 12 years or so but ever since I started playing for the worship team at my church about 2 years ago everything changed. Playing guitar seems so much more important and impactful now and I feel incredibly grateful to be able to use the talents God has gifted me to worship Him and aid in leading the congregation in worship. All this isn't to say I don't find an importance in old hymns or historically important worship music. I do, and I think it's extremely important to preserve such music, but I feel a great amount of arrogance and condescension coming from many that are opposed to contemporary worship music. All I ask if that you get down from your high horse and see that bickering over the musical genre/style that people choose to worship to is perhaps the very least of our problems in the church in America today. And it's especially rich coming from those who are in denominations who are on the brink of self destruction due to the rejection of some of the most basic truths found in Gospels. If I had to chose between the two: a theologically dead church with dwindling attendance and progressive LGBT pastors, or a thriving church where the Gospel is being fiercely proclaimed and God is at work, but perhaps has mediocre and maybe even subpar worship services. I know which one I'm choosing... I reminded of the story of Jesus being anointed by Mary of Bethany in Mark 14. Mark 14:6-8 "'Leave her alone', Jesus said. 'Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial.'" I will never condemn or scorn a fellow believer who, in genuine sincerity and gratitude, is using the resources and talents at their disposal to give glory and honor to God in an act of worship.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 There's not many quality recordings of obscure Baroque composers, so I haven't listened to enough Torelli to properly asses his music. Although his music that I have listened to, I enjoyed. Mostly I just find his name funny (being so close to Corelli's).
What if the rock/metal is rebelling against a degenerate culture? Take straight edge punk for example Also, as a life long metalhead, I can say that metal/rock/punk is more about individuality than simply rebellion, once the scene starts to tyranize it's members about who they're allowed to be, it begins to contradict itself
@@dillanjohnson6797 This, I noticed that most Christian rock is about going against modern sinful culture, rebelling against a society who pushed anti-biblical values and lifestyles which are normal nowadays
If you consider worship to be like water in a bottle, and hymns are a typical bottle size, and contemporary style songs are like a square “figi” bottle. What matters inside is the water. It matters NOT which shape of bottle the water comes in, but rather the water’s purity. I’ll agree that there are contemporary artists who tinge the “water” with showmanship, and turn it into a performance for a show rather than worship. But modern-style worship music is still worship. If it glorifies God and celebrates Christ as the son of God who died for our sins, and proclaims his name, then it’s worship. Because hymns and “traditional” worship songs have only been around for a few centuries, and were written using music theory conventions of the time. They didn’t have the instruments , technology, and music knowledge that we have today. So, the Christians of today are absolutely allowed to offer praise and worship in a modern style unto the Lord, so long as He is in the center of the praise.
Heavy metal music is *objectively* beautiful. You ask anyone what the best version of Carol of the Bells is, and they’ll all tell you that the Trans-Siberian Orchestra version is the best one.
I think it always comes down to why the music is being made. Wasn’t there that Christian rock band that was disbanded because their lead singer came out and said he was an atheist the entire time? Or am I misremembering. Digressing, it’s the: are they making music to glorify God or are they making music because they had a deadline to put a single out by midnight Friday?
@@redeemedzoomer6053Objectively sucks in quality, yes but still objectively good in spirit. God will listen to the purest of hearts regardless if they are intellectually and artistically capable of producing high quality music. Trust me, I agree the works of CCM pale in comparison to Bach and Handel (I have a music degree and am a published composer) but the intent of the music does matter an awful lot when performing it for worship.
@@redeemedzoomer6053I agree, though I think what always gets left out of this discussion is the different purposes of music. Some songs are for thoughtful meditation or worship, some are for energized dancing and increasing joy, some are for mourning and expression of sorrow or angst, etc. And all these are good purposes that should be pursued. But CCM so often focuses on increasing joy to the exclusion of all other purposes (on top of being painfully uninspired). Meanwhile traditional hymns often can't/don't express complexities of emotion as well as rock/pop/indie can (at least in my experience). That's why my favorite band is half•alive, which is a Christian band that doesn't 'sound Christian' but the lyrics are Christian when you stop to think about them, just like some of twenty-one pilots's songs
For Today has a song called Open Eyes which is basically about rebelling against the devil by submitting to Christ, and I think it totally works. Genres and their themes evolve, and I just don’t see how you can maintain that nowadays rock = rebellion against all authority. It’s so much broader than that
My mom is actually the music director at our Catholic Church, so she is in charge of choosing which music is played at Mass. I think she usually goes 50/50 with traditional and newer songs. All the songs that she can choose from are pre-approved for Catholic Mass by the same company that provides our hymnals. Each of the five hymns that she chooses from each Mass has a role (I actually wrote an essay about this for school) and she spends a fair amount of time deciding with hymns are good for each week. She also likes songs that are fun to play and sound pretty, because honestly who doesn’t. But I believe just because a song is fun and new doesn’t automatically make it contemporary. There are several songs that follow the same melody (it is because of this that I am sick of Ode To Joy) but have different words and different meanings. And there are older traditional songs that kinda make me wanna get up and dance. Catholic music isn’t the best, but when your the daughter of a music director, it’s pretty interesting.
I don’t know what to think this, I was raised in an Hispanic Pentecostal church and music was always lively. It took me a while to get use to the music in the UMC church I began to attend my 20s. In my view worshipping God should have a restriction on musical genres. I believe God will accept any form of worship that is fully dedicated to him. I prefer both lively and traditional. Also worship music genre is not only determined by denomination but also by culture, I’m from Puerto Rico and I’ve visited and seen Pentecostal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, and Adventist churches worship in lively music, old hymns but in a modern worship style. Worship differs by cultures. I might be in the minority in this but I think both are good in the eyes and ears of God. Now if rock n roll is from rebellious origins, what is Protestants? We rebelled against the authority of Rome, in a way Protestants are rockers, 😂.
I get the argument that church isn’t supposed to feel like a concert - with smoke machines and flashing lights, but in the end we all worship God in our own way. Some choose traditional methods like hymns and repeated prayers, while others choose to praise with a microphone and an electric piano keyboard. I believe that God doesn’t love one way and hate the other. We’re told that true worship is how we live out our lives and how we conduct ourselves - all according to the Bible.
I teach at a McMegachurch school that features a handful of K-love bops over the course of a school year. In my LCMS parish we sing every verse of 10-12 hymns weekly. There's more theological depth in one Mass than my students have heard in their entire life.
I haven’t made much progress in the video yet but as a Catholic I don’t think modern praise and worship has a place in the mass but praise and worship nights/adoration? I love it there!
I find no issue with newer styles of worship just like I don't find issues with the older styles. Of course I am not saying everything is a go when it comes to worship, but everyone has a different song that their soul sings in worship of the Lord, it shouldn't really matter what style it is, as long as it is worship.
i happened to go to the corner store without my phone and listened the radio. It was set at some Christian station and the song was one of the most horrible generic pop songs I had ever heard, just with lyrics praising God. I guess its a better message than most modern pop music but it still is bad for the spiritual soul to listen to it.
Been loooooong looking forward to a video like this. Lack of fundamental beauty in praise and worship songs is something I've felt for a long time, but not been able to really articulate. Thanks for making this!
NGL I’m not a big fan of contemporary worship music but this is a piss poor argument. What was is now “traditional” music was once considered new and radical and not considered to be fitting of being in a church. Heck, there were arguments at one point on whether to even HAVE music in church and many of these things were influenced by pagan music. Zoomer’s argument basically just comes down to “because tradition and I like it”. Criticize his contemporary worship music all you want but make good arguments.
Thank God for this video, I was wanting a whole video dedicated to this topic. My almost 50 years old mother loves contemporary christian music and I love traditional hymns and she calls me old fashioned for that.
Worship music/singing is meant to praise God and edifty the church. This is done primarily through the lyrics. Lyrics should be true, glorify God, and be understandable to the singers/listeners (bare minimum in the language of the hearers). It is also helpful if the lyrics are easy to remember, rhymeing and music help with this. Music should aid in remembering and hearing the lyrics, music that makes it hard to understand the lyrics hurts the songs ability to edify the listeners.
The purpose of worship is to glorify God, submmit ourselves to Him. And this is best signified by solemnity, so we should have solemn musics, solemn architecture, solemn clothing and art etc. The moment we set appart to worship God is a solemn moment and deserves to be treated as such
How does your view fit with passages like Psalm 33:1, Psalm 63:3, Psalm 100:2, and Psalm 145:7 that tell us to sing joyful songs to God? I find that it's very difficult to sing joyfully whilst also being solemn.
@@stephengray1344 I doubt the priests were singing euphoric songs while doing their rituals at the Temple. Yes, we must be joyful, but there is a moment for everything
@@igorlopes7589 you've made zero points with zero scriptural backings in your reply. The reply above gave scriptures, either elaborate on them or bring out some scriptures too. The bible doesn't care about your feelings or what you just think.
@@igorlopes7589 sorry, you just sound like you have a personal vendetta against anything pentecostal. Not saying you can't be critical, pentecostal surely has lots of flaws, but yours sounds more like an agenda and hinders you from bringing up any scriptural points one can actually learn from.
Hi Zoomer, Catholic youth minister here. I have proper music education, and background in performing, teaching and applying both contemporary music (that we use for our youth groups and parish renewal communities) and traditional liturgical hymns and psalms that we use for Masses. I think your view is oversimplifying something that goes way deeper and needs a more careful and charitable assessment. Let me briefly address just a few points of contention that you've made: 1. "Rock music was made for rebellion against authority, so contemporary Christian music that comes from rock roots can't be used in the Christian context". First of all, this is a genetic fallacy. I know you mention later in the video that you're not trying to make one, but just mentioning it, doesn't undo your clear use of it in this video. It should go without saying, that all of the music we now see as traditional and "classical" was once upon a time a total novelty that surely sounded out of place in the Churches and was coming to us from the outside. What the Church originally inherited was Jewish hymns and psalms that 1st century Christians were singing in their house meetings. Everything else comes from the outside, or is something totally new and alien that was invented from scratch. You're saying your argument isn't genetic fallacy, because contemporary Christian music is still about rebellion, but that is demonstrably false. There is plenty of contemporary Christian music that reflects proper theology of submission in the lyrics through and through. Hillsong's "I surrender" comes to mind, but there are countless thousands of examples. This argument doesn't work on any level. 2. "Jesus culture movement invented contemporary Church music, and they were trying to invent something that sounded unlike Church, on purpose" I think you'd need to back up claims like those. It's true Jesus movement was unorthodox, but accusing them of being anti-church, by design? And these tendencies being reflected in their worship? This can't simply be assumed. If you're trying to say they were simply inventing a completely new musical style for worship without blueprint of the earlier classical music, we're going back to the genetic fallacy, and to the fact that all of our "classical" music, was once a whole new idea that someone just came up with. I don't think there's any "objective" argument you've made here proving to us all contemporary Christian music is inherently anti-church like. It is more dynamic and engaging than most classical music, but I don't think you've properly built your case to claim this is an "anti-church" feature of music. There certainly are, and always have been, plenty of very engaging, emotional, and dynamic classical pieces that have been used in Lutheran, Anglican and my Catholic churches for ages. Just the fact that MOST classical pieces are more calm, stoic and provoking contemplation rather than emotions, doesn't make those rare, more dynamic pieces anti-church in nature. If anything, you're protesting the general "vibe" of each style here more than anything else, and that is truly subjective critique, something you were saying you're trying to avoid. There are many modern worship songs that have very classical, stoic, even dramatic vibe to them. There have always been classical pieces that have been more dynamic. This is a difference of emphasis, and that can't be final for our discernment process here. 3. "Contemporary music is too feminine." This, I have to disagree with even more than the previous two. Take my word for it when I tell you, that vast majority of contemporary Christian songs have been written and composed by MALE solo singers and reflect their thoughts and feelings through and through. It's also confusing to me, why would you say contemporary music reflects rebellion while it should be all about submission - with one breath, and than claim contemporary music is too feminine with the other, when submission is distinctly female attribute in the traditional Christian family model and tradition more generally. Contemporary Christian songs are even technically written to only reach high enough notes for the male voices to manage, making them more engaging for men in general. Meanwhile, vast majority of songs for traditional choir that I teach my students, have the leading soprano voice. This means, lay people sitting in our pews, would not be even capable of singing and engaging in these pieces at all, because they wouldn't be capable of reaching those tunes, or even coming close. If you're trying to say that contemporary Christian music talks too much about our emotions, than once again, this is faulty logic. There are countless psalms in the Bible that talk specifically about emotions. David, the warrior king with the heart aligned with the mind of God - how could he, of all people write too much about emotions? And much of the contemporary songs I know are quoting psalms, word by word at that. It's fine to not like contemporary style. But you've got to back it up a lil better if you wanna claim your arguments are objective, and grounds to "throwing out" a whole genre of beautiful songs that were made to glorify God. There's place for BOTH in our Churches.
CCM is really good at “feeling” rich and deep, when it almost always is shallow. The emotional response I feel singing Psalm 85 or the third verse of “It Is Well” is far better than anything I felt from charismatic worship.
Large portions of traditional worship music are also shallow. However those songs are the ones that fell out of use decades or centuries ago. And despite contemporary worship music moving away from using Biblical passages for their lyrics during the 1990s there are still significant portions of it which are deep and meaningful (something like Stuart Tonwend's "In Christ Alone, for example). And when it comes to charismatic worship, the songs should be being used primarily as a corporate response to whatever prophecies, interpretations of tongues, or other contributions have been brought. If the worship isn't being led by use of the gifts then it isn't charismatic in any meaningful sense.
So, what people are stating right now about new Christian music, is not about an objection to non-traditional stylistic features but it is a critique on the (at times lack there of) biblical and sound doctrine? - I would also like there to be a resurgence of Biblical doctrinally sound Contemporary Christian Music/CCM (this exists but we need more). Although reading the Bible (Word of God) is the true way to learn to follow God’s teachings, and preaching is a way to reach others into accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but hymns/songs are part of worshiping God - songs can contain a lot of Biblically sound messages (that has a lot of information kinda similar to a sermon) than can help with evangelism (it has worked before with old and new hymns, but many modern hymns of today need some work on actively and precisely teaching biblically sound doctrine that both worships God, reminds us of God’s teach, and reaches unbelievers. If content of the lyrics rather than stylistic features/genre is the case, it’s a (relatively) valid criticism; but when it comes to stylistic features: so long as the contents of the song is biblical, the stylistic features/genre is clear/audible, and it does not become a stumbling block to those within the specific congregation/setting (e.g. trying to not unsettle older people/people who grew up singing old traditional-style hymns), I don’t mind if we Christians (Evangelical Christians) use modern musical stylistic features. If stylistic features had been a problem, we would have had hymns of Ecclesiastical Latin Chant music like the Roman Catholics of old, like the Orthodox who still use non-vernacular styles of music/liturgical languages like Koine Greek, Syriac and Aramaic, Ge’ez, Coptic, Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, Old Georgian, etc. that have little-to-no native speakers - or the New Testament would have been written in Biblical Hebrew (Jewish liturgical language) rather than Koine Greek which was the lingua franca of the time, the Protestant Reformation dealing with using the vernacular would have been moot, the use of other cultural music tradition would be frowned upon, and we would probably have still been using Jewish musical styles if we weren’t allowed to use our own musical styles rooted in our cultural traditions while stil maintaining theological conservatism/Biblical orthodoxy in the contents of the hymns’ lyrics (FYI/General Statement to All: the “traditional hymns” or “traditional sacred music” that many of us know them as in the United States/Western World are only traditional to those locations and once were the same stylistic features used in secular music in centuries past - think secular sea shanty music, English folk music, etc. -, while others around the world have their own traditional styles but keep the same biblically orthodox teachings of true Christianity). But if a certain musical style is too distracting or becomes uncomfortable, it should be limited to certain settings or not be used in corporate worship as determined through discernment; although we have liberty in this matter - we should also strive to not be a stumbling block to others.
I do agree to an extent, but I’m not entirely sure it’s fair to say an entire genre or style of music fails to capture the holiness of God while this other style does because of a few reasons, 1. I don’t think anything on this earth that we create can even come close to capturing the holiness of God and 2. I think you can’t judge and entire genre or style of music I think you need to take by a case by case basis. The proof of this is that there isn’t 1 genre or style of music where every song in that style is good. Every style has good and bad songs. HOWEVER I do think it is very true that some modern churches and music treat God casually. I don’t think you need to have a strict dress code at a church, but you should have the church understand the idea that church is very serious and you should treat it as such. You shouldn’t judge someone who comes to church who may only own the shirt on their back because they aren’t wearing a 3 piece suit. Either way, I think zoomer is on to something and I do think is a good take if a little extreme
i would like to start by saying - Go to or stay at a church the Lord guides you to. Now i can agree that Bethel and contemporary worship music has a major problem, for they are money first and they focus on the money aspect, and not the God aspect of music. I recently had the opportunity to join Petra on tour, and i can tell you that when it comes to opening bands, it has never been more evident to me that a band can pretend to be christian, say the right stuff, sing something connected to the Bible, and have no anointing or blessing from God. alternatively there are many bands and songs that can be simplistic, but are blessed and anointed, and have the Spirit present when played and listened to. Now i have to say I hadn't heard of Petra before i was asked as part of a prayer ministry to join the group on tour, however just hearing them play, their heart for God, and their sound theology while the Spirit moves heavily is the most amazing experience I've had musically. we also had some amazing opening bands like Hope's Creed, the Martell Brothers, and Gabriel Marchuk (if you like 21 pilots you'll like him) that are filled and blessed with God's anointing. All in all, the problem with modern music is contemporary sounds driven by Mammon (the spirit of greed, comfort, etc.) that works to put the church to sleep. We must as a body work to accept and bless those that God anoints and stop accepting music that the Spirit does not participate with. Test the theology and the spirit of the music you listen to and worship with. God be with you brothers and sisters in Christ
also Zoomer if you read this listen to some Petra, as they are the epitome of good Christian rock. i agree a lot of Christian rock is meh, but Petra was the real breakthrough of Christian rock because it fully submits to God and is theologically sound not that they are good for worship in a service, however our listening music is also important to have as Christ centered
This argument overlooks the fact that the blending of sacred and secular divides has been happening long before the rise of popular worship music. Lutheran hymn ‘Herzlich tut mich verlangen’ uses the tune from secular love song ‘Mein G’mut ist mir verwirret’ and Luther writes In the preface to the Wittenberg Gesangbuch ‘These, are set for four voices for no other reason than that I wished that the young might have something to rid them of their love ditties and wanton songs.’ Bach also on occassion would use tunes from popular music as the melodies in his hymns. Popular music idioms is not only a substititute for secular culture (e.g. Contemporary Christian Music Rock, Pop, Rap, Metal) but is also used as a tool to make the songs more accesible to the congregation for them to sing along to rather than learn new styles of music. Also there are some bad hymns out there. Many hymns at the end of the 19th Century were too difficult / uncomfortable to sing for the congregation. Many modern hymns are heavily influenced by Vaughan Villiams the composer of The English Hymnal and Songs of Praise who adapted these 'broken' hymns and made them suitable for church - he was an athiest.
Zoomer, I think you're misunderstanding contemporary worship. The electric guitar is a symbol of Christ's energizing presence. The worship-band is a symbol of the angelic choir. The skinny jeans are a symbol of God's indelible grace. The fog machine is a symbol of the Holy Spirit's omnipresence, produces incense, and recreates the setting of Mount Horeb. When the pastor uses speakers, it's the Father speaking with a thunderous voice. The casual clothes that are brought symbolize the filthy rags that constitute our works.
I may need to do a response video. For a critique of contemporary worship music, there wasn’t a lot of critique of the music itself or the lyrics, which I was shocked since many people claim that modern contemporary worship music is bad because the lyrics are too vague and uninspired (which I feel is an unfair generalization). You say it doesn’t capture the holiness of God, yet I’ve encountered the holiness of God through contemporary worship music. I also wouldn’t call it effeminate either. As an aspiring worship leader I have a very passionate and strong voice and have felt extreme strength and masculinity in contemporary worship. Over all, I think you’re objectively wrong. I’d say many contemporary worship songs are objectively beautiful. This isn’t my personal subjective opinion, but a fact. For someone emphasizing the truth of objective value and beauty, I find it ironic you haven’t actually mentioned real measurable problems with the music itself, and have only made completely untrue statements and mentioned origins of that style that aren’t at all relevant. (And the idea Christian rock or metal can’t exist is preposterous and best). Overall, this seems like a subjective opinion piece rather than an objective overview of contemporary worship. It just seems like you don’t like the music. Which is fine. Not everyone will like objectively beautiful art or understand every style. But, for a video meant to speak on objectivity and condemn those who ignore objective beauty, which I agree with, you haven’t actually done that yourself and have instead come to the objectively wrong conclusion the CCM is bad.
RZ, can you actually give us definitions and concrete examples of what is and isn't objectively beautiful worship music? I have my own problems with many moden worship bands and songs, but none of this rant was backed up with scripture. And if you're claiming some sort of objective standard to beauty in terms of style of music, you absolute need to back that up with something. Anything really. I studied Bach chorals at school, and as clever and theoretically perfect they are (by their own rules) I really don't find them beautiful, I find them dull for the most part. On the same note, what makes JS Bach "objectively" the best composer of worship music? How can something like that be quantified? I can't stand the vast majority of modern worship music, but equally so many of the old hyms have the exact same problems for me. They're boring and repetitive. Their melodies sound like nursery rhymes. So many of the melodies, harmonies and accompaniment sound more or less the same. So many of the lyrics are simply not suitable for people living in the 21st century because language has changed. The organ (in my very subjective opinion) is probably the most boring instrument to ever exist. It takes a ridiculously talented organist to make me excited about a piece of organ music. I understand it's not the church's job to change to suit the world, but people have to understand what they are singing, and if they are bored stiff of the style in which they are singing, are they really worshipping together? why not spice it up a little? After all, that's what Bach did in his day.
I have the same issues with this video. I don’t see anything in Scripture that would be against CCM and the challenge with saying something is objectively bad is there needs to be a clearly stated standard for what is objectively good, and then explain why a certain thing does not meet that standard. God is the objective standard for what is good, true, and beautiful. My question is, how does CCM largely not meet that standard? Also, is the standard based on the quality of the music or the intent in which the music is written for? Or is it both, and why? These are the things RZ needs to clarify, I think. That being said, this is essentially an opinion video so I don’t think it was his intention to give a Bible-based take. It’s just what he thinks.
@@Basedorthodoxchad CCM would also be praising God! ☺️ Tradition ≠ Good, just as Contemporary ≠ Bad, or viceversa. Both styles of music are welcome in the church! God loves you, my brother in Christ ❤️
I am a big fan of traditional protestant hymns, but being a small-ish rural church, we don't have access to a beautiful pipe organ -- we have a 1970s-era electric organ that just sounds dated and tired -- and it's difficult to find anyone who can even play that thing. I'd much rather find a way of doing contemporary arrangements of classic hymns with acoustic guitar, etc, akin to what the Norton Hall Band does. The theology and poetry of these songs have power. I get the appeals to classic beauty, but their is nothing classical nor beautiful about a 50-year-old Yamaha organ on its last leg.
Having written a number of traditional-styled hymns myself, I'd additionally note that hymns encapsulate more actual theology than CCM typically does. I am admittedly rather salty over having my music passed over for CCM, fwiw.
Beauty is Christian by definition, there shouldn't be a distinction between a Radiohead song that is true and a ccm song. Though there is a place for that, but not in church. Good examples of modern "Christian" bands are: Strahan Topher Daniels - empty graves Dirt poor robins My Epic Christians need to get past u2 and switch foot, and Dave Matthews. That's like there only reference point. Learn from led Zeppelin, but don't follow them. St Basil wrote a treatise on how to read the pagan texts.
So, what people are stating right now about new Christian music, is not about an objection to non-traditional stylistic features but it is a critique on the (at times lack there of) biblical and sound doctrine? - I would also like there to be a resurgence of Biblical doctrinally sound Contemporary Christian Music/CCM (this exists but we need more). Although reading the Bible (Word of God) is the true way to learn to follow God’s teachings, and preaching is a way to reach others into accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but hymns/songs are part of worshiping God - songs can contain a lot of Biblically sound messages (that has a lot of information kinda similar to a sermon) than can help with evangelism (it has worked before with old and new hymns, but many modern hymns of today need some work on actively and precisely teaching biblically sound doctrine that both worships God, reminds us of God’s teach, and reaches unbelievers. If content of the lyrics rather than stylistic features/genre is the case, it’s a (relatively) valid criticism; but when it comes to stylistic features: so long as the contents of the song is biblical, the stylistic features/genre is clear/audible, and it does not become a stumbling block to those within the specific congregation/setting (e.g. trying to not unsettle older people/people who grew up singing old traditional-style hymns), I don’t mind if we Christians (Evangelical Christians) use modern musical stylistic features. If stylistic features had been a problem, we would have had hymns of Ecclesiastical Latin Chant music like the Roman Catholics of old, like the Orthodox who still use non-vernacular styles of music/liturgical languages like Koine Greek, Syriac and Aramaic, Ge’ez, Coptic, Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, Old Georgian, etc. that have little-to-no native speakers - or the New Testament would have been written in Biblical Hebrew (Jewish liturgical language) rather than Koine Greek which was the lingua franca of the time, the Protestant Reformation dealing with using the vernacular would have been moot, the use of other cultural music tradition would be frowned upon, and we would probably have still been using Jewish musical styles if we weren’t allowed to use our own musical styles rooted in our cultural traditions while stil maintaining theological conservatism/Biblical orthodoxy in the contents of the hymns’ lyrics (FYI/General Statement to All: the “traditional hymns” or “traditional sacred music” that many of us know them as in the United States/Western World are only traditional to those locations and once were the same stylistic features used in secular music in centuries past - think secular sea shanty music, English folk music, etc. -, while others around the world have their own traditional styles but keep the same biblically orthodox teachings of true Christianity). But if a certain musical style is too distracting or becomes uncomfortable, it should be limited to certain settings or not be used in corporate worship as determined through discernment; although we have liberty in this matter - we should also strive to not be a stumbling block to others.
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck Still not got them all recorded at suitable quality for publication unfortunately, but when I do I think I'll probably upload them to CZcams itself.
I used to think as you do. But I began to realize that while it didn't appeal to me, it did appeal to a good number of my brothers and sisters in Christ. What I personally saw as corny and repeatative was also moving the hearts and souls of others to sing out earnest praise to God. As it is written: "For the one who is not against us is for us." So while I still find CCM to be cheesy and repeatative, I follow along with my siblings in Christ to the best of my ability as we sing praise and worship unto him.
I just wanted to ask, what actually counts as contemporary worship? Because I go to a PCA church but the type of music seems alright according to what you are talking about
Christian metal seems to tend toward lyrics that do rebel, however instead of rebellion against a physical authority, it is rebellion against the ways of the world and rebellion against self and the temptation of sin.
Lol I find it funny that Orthodoxy already jumped on the whole punk/metal thing with the whole Death to the World - The Last True Rebellion thing, complete with skulls and dark clothes
It's called Soldiers Under Command by Stryper, Zoomer. Enjoy the rabbit hole I made for you. Now, I agree, during worship, stick to the hymns. Just wanted to drop this little bomb on you.
Not a Christian but regarding rock could you not argue that submitting to the authority of god is rebelling against the secular culture and therefore rock is compatible with Christianity
"so what do you do for a living?" "i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses i write modern worship choruses"
My Anglican church in England has traditional hymns in the first service and more contemporary in the second service. I know what you mean about the hymns being beautiful, Amazing Grace is a wonderful worship song, and there certainly are some contemporary songs that are just bad songs. But there are others that are great worship songs. The lyrics are very moving and focussed on God's love and glory and I really don't think the Lord is upset by these songs
Your discussion about evangelicals being casual and mainlines being more traditional and sacred is so true, and it's even true in weddings. The evangelical Christian couples will have their wedding in a barn with their own made-up wedding vows and a chick playing acoustic guitar and singing a Hillsong song as the bride walks down the aisle. A mainline couple will get married in a church with the traditional vows and a hymn on the organ for the processional. And the traditional wedding is so much more beautiful.
Love what you’re doing Redeemed Zoomer! Here’s a thought… In Genesis 1, God created humanity, blessed them, and said “be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it.” People often take that to mean that God blessed us to “make babies!” Which it does, but it also means that God blessed us to make art, culture, build cities, and just be creative! It seems to me, the objective good does not reside in a certain genre of music, but is in the creative act of making things. Keep up the good work RZ! I love to see more of us young Christians with passion for Jesus and his church.
Strange take here, I like contemporary Christian music and hymns. I think they both have value in different ways. The church I attend and serve at is conservative, non denominational, and worships with traditional style music and hymns.
I think it’s also good to remember when Christianity develops in various countries with new believers, they are going to worship in a manner that suits their cultural context.
@@nickthegreat4957 Well, if you're going to be doing that, make sure you don't act like what you're criticizing. Make sure you aren't on your phone all the time, stay off ticktock, read physical books, pay with cash, don't use your phone for everything, don't download corporate apps on your phone, and don't use weird colloquialisms when you talk. I have kids that are Gen Alpha, but from what I've seen of their friends there isn't a discernable difference between Gen Z and Alpha. Same bad parenting, same bad habits and tendencies in both generations. I don't let my kids have phones, and I don't let them use colloquialisms. I also make my older son spend an hour each day reading from a physical book. You have to be like that.
my guy, I love you but rock and Christianity absolutely go very well together. Ever heard of Flyleaf and Lacey Sturm especially? It's some of the most amazing music and is overtly Christian. Also, Let go by Set for the fall is literally a Christian metal song about letting to and wanting God to take over
I actually have an issue with the objective beauty argument cuz unless you try and argue that there is no subjective beauty, everyone does agree that there is some level of objectivity in music (eg. in vs out of tune/time)
I'm curious what you would say to someone like my brother, he doesn't like music (which is strange considering my dad has a degree in music; and my mom, sister, and I all love to sing), and he probably wouldn't say any music is beautiful.
my takeaway was "it better be traditional church or it isn't effective church" none of the early church had bach's hymns or fancy clothes. you made a massive point on objective truth then turned around at the end to say that it didn't matter if non-traditional churches used contemporary worship music or not. that confused me, because up to that point i had felt like that was the whole point of the video. reading matthew 15:1-9 led me to think. "why do you transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?" i am not trying to say that traditional church is bad for its traditions, but i can't stand by saying modern worship music is bad worship music by criticizing its musical structure. it is music made to worship the Lord. "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." i have no hate for this channel. i have strongly agreed with other videos from redeemedzoomer. but this one overstepped it a little with the fallacy saying that christian rock is rebellious because it emerged from rebellious places. that is like saying you have an italian accent because you are eating spaghetti (i am hungry now.) it is saying that because you are partaking in something, that you have some of the same intention as those who started it, and that that is an irrevocable reality; like a stain you can't remove. but just saying, is there a stain God can't remove? and i am also not trying to say i do not have any issues with modern worship either. but saying that it is bad because it doesn't have a rhythmic choir piece singing psalms is not an objective fact. saying that because worship music is modern then everyone knows it has to suck, be complex, and ugly is subjective. me personally: not a massive classical music listener. i don't throw on chorales when i want to be near God, because they are not exactly my taste. i think any worship music by people that are focusing on worshiping God for who he is and what he has done is objectively beautiful, but not because of the music. the main thing is that worship music is beautiful because we are hearing a child of God express their love of the Creator. it doesn't have to be the same music for everyone. we don't have to enforce one kind of music on people when even though the heart may be beautiful, the music may frankly just not be enjoyable to all. that, i think, is my main issue with this video; that the focus is more on the music than the Lord. i do not agree with this video, but that is ok. zoomer, you have stated your opinion, which, even though i do not view it as correct, is your opinion. i have reached my opinion through studying the word and my personal experience with worship of my Lord and savior. i cannot deny you validity or freedom of speech because with hope, you reached your opinion the same way. thanks for putting your time into this video. no, really! i appreciate that you are willing to stand for your opinion. your video made me think, and not a lot of videos do that these days. (and i did like your build.) have a good day |:)
Quite frankly, the lack of objective beauty is why I was convinced that the more orthodox churches had more truth than prots. God is the source of beauty so it makes sense that the more beautiful a church is on average the closer to god they are.
Hello Zoomer, i am having a bit of trouble finding a good Reformed/Presbyterian church in my area. I looked on the Historic Church map and the Operation Reconquista map and there are no churches near me. So what do you think i should do? Great video BTW
With your comment on Schoenberg in mind, what do you think of axis tonality such as Bartók or Quartal and Quintal harmony such as Mathias and Messiaen to an extent?
The only ways that worship is mentioned in the Bible is sacrifice and kneeling/falling to the ground in adoration and thanksgiving. Worship is adoring or sacrificing to God. All these other things peoooe point to to justify emotionalism based concert and dancing praise do not use the words worship or point to how those people acted in the temple or in the presence of the ark. If you want figure out if something is worship or not ask yourself. “Since God cannot Worship as he is the premier being. God can sing praise to people or generate other people or honor other people why he cannot do is worship other people. Also the mass is the perfection of true worship.
I do believe that worship can be dancing and singing, because that is also part of praising the Lord. But certain things do not belong in weekly church liturgy. As Paul said, the gatherings should be proper and orderly managed. I do not agree with songs that do not even mention, God, Christ or scripture at all. Or songs that are not properly chosen to match the message and scripture. You are not worshipping, you are vibing with your emotions.
To add to this, I would mention the fruit. CCM is basically a way to get recognised as “anointed” (ie talented with charisma). CCM is about album sales, tours, and personalities and “fans”. How does any of that glorify God? Or are we just using the name of God to make a career for ourselves?
Leaving this comment now though I don't have time to watch rn. One thing that seems missing from modern CCM that was overflowing in the late 80s and into the 90s was a sense of overwhelming joy from writing a song for the Lord *in the song for the Lord.* A song I've been unable to get enough of lately is "When Justice Rolls Down" by Michael Pearce Donley. He's a relative nobody, just writing a song about how great his God is, and how amazing it is that he's perfectly just. That joy is missing from CCM, as everything gets published to make money.
There does seem to have been a notable change in contemporary worship music that happened in the 90s. That was the period when the lyrics went from being mostly taken straight from scripture to being mostly made up by the songwriter. It's also interesting that the recordings of songs from major Christian conferences in the 1980s (at least in the UK), they are basically recording the congregation singing. But at the end of the 80s/beginning of the 90s, they are basically recording the band, with the congregation being relegated to essentially a backing singer.
@stephengray1344 that's crazy that I've never put that fine a point on it. So many live recordings now are made to "sound perfect," instead of capture the sound of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ singing to God. Man... how far we've fallen as a church.
I think there is a serious flaw that often pops up when discussing the concept of objective beauty. I agree on it in general there is objective beauty. But what we need to ask is: can we as humans fully grasp that objectivity. God can deem what is beautiful, but can we as humans understand the limit of a subjective experience of beauty and true pure beauty? And regarding the origins of music: tons of classical pieces were ordered to be made by kings and societal elites that commites countless attrocities, maybe we should let the pieces that honor god speak for themselves.
Good video but i recommend you work on your arguments for why traditional music is objectively beautiful. You demonstrated why you believe objective truth, goodness, and beauty exist, but then you said "everyone knows modern art sucks" and "no one can listen to a bach corale and think its not beautiful" - these statements can't prove that traditional music/art falls into the category of objective beauty while modern art/music falls outside it
I used to attend a once was southern Baptist denomination that had it's issues at its core and spent a serious amount of time trying to please the small congregation in the worship department because the older peeps liked only hymns literally, but then there was the younger kids mid thirties and under who liked modern hymns/rock music then there was the third category of the long time worship member who was essentially his own worship team and preferred more modernish music but maybe more like 80s 90s and early Chris Tommlin and Don Moen? (Forgot how spell his name) styled music and the church board just let him do what he wanted to appease him and the mixed part of the congregation who liked the one man worship team. And then there was the pastor who liked music from the 70s because of how the lyrics were beautiful and captured what he felt was lost in Modern music, so he had us sing "give thanks with a grateful heart" every Thanks giving and "they will know we are Christians by out love, by our love" which sreamed "hippie" to me. Some people felt more adamanly than others that the style of music the wanted was needed every sunday more than others. The compromise was each week they would cycle between modern, hymns, and one man worship team. (He did have people help with worship some weeks but it was mostly just him) and because some people felt more strongly than others it did cause people to change things up by attending other churches. In short the lesson here is do not let what kind of music become a thorn in the side of everyone involved, because it can be a distraction and petty. I'm sure there is a good way to compromise, like maybe sing more modern hyms, sing more a capella, and hymns mainly because most people already know how to sing most hymns, mainly because the tunes are repeatative, and for me personally I find that to be the most helpful when learing a new song. Or maybe like some small bible churches do, like one ive been to, and find music that is God centered because how well you actually worship on stage doesn't matter as mush as the inward intent to sing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in your hearts" a quote from colossians Which was used as an explanation to encourage the small congration to practice and do their best because all they have usually is acoustic guitar players, a piano, and singers usually. They did have a nice blend of hymns and modern music as long as it was christ centered and theologically sound because becoming more high church to some degree for many people runs the risk of including unnecessary fluff in to the hearts and minds of the church goers at that church, who have to remain bible centered because they are the only church around and don't want people to feel like that have to conform to a specific denomination. They have more visitors in the summer time and feel as if not picking what may seem to them as a box is more inclusive because they don't know every summer who the new people from any given place will be. I now attend a Non denomination church and the alluring thing about that is that it is the most appealing for people who don't know what they are looking for in a more traditional church yet and because they can be less intimidated by a low church. They do have good sermons and it can feel like a conference with music, mostly Shane and Shane and sometimes a hymn (or they do thing where they ding a few verses from a hymn in the middle of the contemporary song ) and then a little Tasha Lenard Cobss. But maybe the congregation and are people who are not ready to or know really if they should go to a higher church so to speak. I find the issue of dressing for church to be potentially vain, because for many people where I am, dressing up is sometimes looking semi formal down to neat but casual, but feel free to go the full nine yards "if you feel led" (something saud that is potentially thrown around to much) mostly because lower churches don't want to pressure people into thinking that the outer appearance is a main focus out of respect for the people who can only afford what they already have at the present. Also because people have the personal conviction of "man sees the outward appearance and God sees the heart" a reference from the book of Samuel when Samuel is looking for a King, and that example I've heard many times. I do remember a verse about how true worshipers worship in spirit, but that is not a an excuse to be casual. Though the churches I've attended are low church, they do preach to show they reverence, respect, and fear towards God and Christ because they have ultimately have authority and thus its not always "Jesus is yo bestie" and not always "Jesus is God,King, and High Priest forever in the oder of Melchizedek and you know nothing about how to be on the bottom of the food chain so say nothing unless spoken to" It was more both, but with respect. Ex "I am your friend but also your commander in chief" ("so don't bother voting because Alaska only gets two electorial votes" "and " But our citizenship is in heaven and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.") That's my experience with church music and clothing. Obviously come as you are, but also you are still invited to the wedding feast so dress appropriately, lest you be "tossed outside, into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" so dress literally with the behavior of a humble and contrite heart bearing all fruits of the spirit because those are your wedding cloths just as must as wearing the literall cotton,denim,linen,polyester is clothing.
czcams.com/users/liveJBGbIjX3jX4?si=fPUyk5LVt2qMFapt This is Victory Boyd, who sings literally and reads anything from the Bible Gospel style, in true American fashion, and then Also sang a hymn, but with a modern tune, a good example of a compromise, while still singing with the obvious intent to be some one who "must worship in spirit and in truth" Not to say I will see a Heavy Metal worship service or the whole Beautiful Eulogy rap album sung in a non denomination church anytime soon, because I won't. But they still try to sing music that most people will know like new worshipers in the faith. Should they do better and make it a more formal for the wedding? Yes, but some low churches do already, though not to everyone's perspective.
czcams.com/video/YGgymPGviGE/video.htmlsi=yE1UyHt8XixkZKn4 Also this is a good explanation as to why it is wise to be selective to a reasonable degree about what you sing about.
As a 20 year old who has spent the last 6 years of my life serving my church and my college through leading contemporary music, I really do appreciate the push back. It is helpful to understand the reasons why there are pushback. I don’t agree with everything presented in this argument but I think that it points to a lot of truths. I agree that all truth, goodness, and beauty comes from God and therefore objective. I also understand that there is a lot of bad contemporary Christian music. From what I understand though, worship music is meant to glorify God. That is what makes it beautiful. There are multiple ways to glorify God through worship music: 1. The words that are spoken should be truths about God and his relationship to his people. 2. The music should be beautiful (if it sounds bad, don’t use it😂) 3. The people leading worship are offering up their years of practicing and training as “insufficient gifts to feed a crowd” (from the liturgy book, Every Moment Holy). 4) The congregation is joining a whole body of believers from all generations and all cultures in worshiping God. Based off of these requirements, I don’t see any reason for contemporary Christian worship music to be less glorifying objectively. I don’t really see an argument in your video that shows why this music is less beautiful from a biblical perspective. I understand the historical argument against it (which I will wrestle with) but I don’t see a biblical warrant to throw out contemporary worship music for the sole reason that it is not in a traditional hymn style. I do agree that traditional hymns can be safer to use because they have stood the test of time (therefore making them better at my 1st and 4th aspect of beauty). This doesn’t mean that contemporary worship music always has bad theology or bad music. For example, I think Shane and Shane have done an amazing job taking psalms and traditional hymns and making them beautiful through arrangement for a band. I also think that CityALight has been writing songs that are lyrically beautiful and musically beautiful. I’d love to hear what you have to think abt this! I really do appreciate the pushback and you have gotten me to think very hard about this subject!
So beauty is objective... but, also, our experience of beauty is subjective... So, how do you bridge the gap between your subjective experience of beauty and objective beauty that isn't appealing to your subjective experience?
The number one issue I have with contemporary music is how it has terrible theological value, half the songs fall under the category of which I call "self-help gospel" the lyrics in this section basically boil down to: "you're perfect the way you are, you don't have to change anything, God loves you the way you are." which is just simply wrong. The other half is just completely meaningless. It's fluff, air, pop music with a Jesus sticker slapped on. These songs have no value or substance, they do not instill any lessons or greater understanding of scripture, Christ's lessons or God's plan upon the listener, it's just: "hey, God exits and he's pretty cool" and that's it, and while it's not wrong, I didn't need a mediocre poprock song to tell me that.
I go to a newer church (about 10-15 years old) in a big city. We aren’t affiliated with any denomination, but our theology is between Baptist and Reformed. We have a small worship team that often varies by week, and we play/sing a combination of traditional songs and more contemporary songs like by the Gettys. The church doesn’t feel anything like a concert, instead focusing on congregation singing. I really like what we do and see it as integrating the best of contemporary music in a more reverent style with the songs that have been around for hundreds of years. On the other hand, my grandmother goes to a contemporary Baptist church in a medium sized town in-state. She absolutely loves the contemporary music played there. I went with a friend to a Phil Wickham concert at my friend’s church (of course, a concert is a whole different thing). I think there is a lot of value in contemporary music, but the way it’s done in many churches is less reverent than it should be. P.S. I’m a pianist (among other things), so I’m at least somewhat familiar with what you talked about. Fun fact: chorales are often arranged for concert bands for warm ups and exercises (I’ve never seen a Bach chorale which would probably be harder, but one I see a lot is It Is Well). I mostly agree with what you said about modern music: atonal music and series are weird. I do like music that uses a lot of chromaticism well (like Rachmaninoff and Chopin) and even more unconventional, semi-atonal music (like Prokofiev and Bartok can be), but taking atonality as far as Schoenberg and Berg did is just weird and stops having any positive emotional effect imo.
Bach is an incredible artist. On his death bed he left this world believing that he his art failed to reach its appropriate standard and that he failed God in this regard. And this is coming from one of the greatest composers of all time. Imagine if contemporary Christian artists had this same vision and integrity to their art. The church would be a different place.
As a Christian who is also a musician its very odd to hear people fundamentally misunderstand what music is. Its also very alienating. What's the actual objective with music in worship? I understand if your congregation can't support types of music due to size or venue constraints, but there is a very physical element to all music that is inspired from emotion. The reason a 5th sounds nice to you is due to a literal mathematic relationship between the frequencies. The reason 120BPM feels fast or better yet *feels slow* is all a consequence of literal phenomena. Its all music theory! Dissonance, timbre, and repetition are just characteristics of music, and its all just seemingly lost on the lay person. Fundamentally strawmanned by people who, don't just fail to understand it, but fail to *care to* understand it. Reminds me of people who play off science as being some creation of atheisism. You don't represent Christians well when you say things like this; its founded in ignorance. Our god is not mundane or incapable of understanding a deeper meaning of our music. Focus on the content not the characteristics. There is hard science and math behind why music sounds the way it does. To say there is that level of objectivity in beauty (specifically in art?) will make me demand you answer what constitutes an objectively good fraction or frequency? At what point does the dissonance between several instruments become too much and how can we measure it? I think it goes without saying but none of this is particularly aimed at someone just an observation that I have made.
As a french protestant, i'm surround by catholics, and it's hard to find a protestant church with good music.... That really hurt me, 'cause i'm musician too
Respectfully, this is the one of the most absurd, pretentious takes I have ever heard. If the music is designed to praise God then it doesn’t matter what it sounds like (genre-wise)
I agree with Zoomer's views on objective beauty just not the particular argument he is making on how we ought to apply it when it comes to worship music. I do agree with the sense of dissatisfaction that underlies his argument when it comes to contemporary music in that there is much to be critical of how people have used it even up until this day and age. It is honestly discouraging to see all the mistakes contemporary artists have made when writing these songs that many still use even in spite of its at times obvious flaws. However, we serve a God who is greater than us and yet still merciful. He ain't gonna strike us dead because we were striking the drums a little too vigorously. Lol 🥁😂 I do think worship leaders need to be cautious about what songs they do allow and judge whether the songs we sing/play are setting ourselves apart enough from the culture that we often borrow from. I do think churches may also need to offer different worship services to people who feel that contemporary music is just not for them, so they don't have to feel ashamed about what they sing/play during worship. Often i have been to churches where the traditionalist approach to worship takes place in the 1st service while contemporary is relegated to the 2nd service. This helps to mitigate causing each of our brothers/sisters in Christ who may stumble over what constitutes as true worship with each other. Multiple options is just better, imo. However, i do think no one should be judged if they want to worship at a church that only offers one mode and not the other. In the end, we are all under God's grace if we truly believe. And God's light will shine into our lives to correct any bad theology we may develop or already have at some point in our spiritual faith journeys. So just be nice to people. That is what worship is truly about, ultimately. 😇
What is happening with the pink sheep thing? Like I’m confused with the whole thing. It is a joke? it is commentary on evangelicals? Or it is all for real?
I grew up Orthodox & sang the same songs every week. They didn’t mean much after 15 years-just rote memorization. (Sadly) Moved to Vegas and found Jesus and worship music that is beautiful- I download current and/or contemporary songs that actually have very deep biblical meanings. Have you listened to “No Longer Slaves” or Tremble or Throne Room? Really deep. Also, “come as you are” is not what you wear- it’s how you are physically, mentally, spiritually- church is a hospital and we all are sinners who need Jesus to save us. Jesus looks at the heart, not the physical presence. CCV music from Phoenix has some great & spiritual songs.
You had bread in your inventory why are you eating carrots i cannot focus on the topic
"man does not live on bread alone"
@@obijuan__ amen
@@obijuan__”I am the bread of life”
Jesus ate bread but not.. c-c-carrots 🤮
@@obijuan__ Legend...
Saving the bread for communion
Christian rock and metal can be done well, it's just not music you'd sing in church. I could imagine a song where you surrender your frustrations and anger to the Lord, or something like fighting against temptations. It's not all about rebellion
Lesser Gods by Demon Hunter is my favorite Christian metal song
I agree, I love Christian metal but it's definitely not something I'd want in church. In church, I want actual worship music
Disagree. Lots of people sing rock music in church. It doesn't have to be screamo or anything. I'd totally sing it in church...
Well... Actually my voice sucks... But I'd totally be down to fail at singing it in a church lol.
@@anth636 Madness by Citizens and Saints. Its not a metal song at all though.
Pariah by For Today is a very heavy screamo song about martyrdom and it goes super hard. But obviously not something you’d play in church lol
As a Christian metal enjoyer, I agree that hymns should be used in church.
I'm a simple guy. I like hymns in church, Christian metal in the car and CCM in the trash
@@AeroTimYT Based.
Ah another Demon Hunter enjoyer
@@AeroTimYTw take
What are good christian metal band?
I'm fine with modern Christian music despite also believing beauty is objective.
My issue is that a lot of the music tends to be generic, uninspired, and a clear and obvious attempt to nab cash from Christians.
Also I HEAVILY disagree with the idea that just because the origin of rock means that rock can't be mixed with Christianity. Yes it originated during the rebellious phase in Americas culture. That doesn't mean it can't be used for Christianity. Rock in and of itself isnt inherently rebellious. Its a genre. If someone said "Mix history and Metal" twenty years ago people would say is ridiculous because those two things clearly dont go together. Rock is modern and up beat while history us boring and old. yet today we have bands like Civil War and Sabaton. If someone were to use Gregorian chants to praise Satan you obviously wouldn't say it's Christian simply because Gregorian chants come from Christianity. The message can be anything at all depending on who wrote it and what they wrote.
Same thar part caught me off guard
This is my biggest gripe with contemporary worship music. Too commercial. The second gripe is it often promotes bad doctrine. You really have to trust your church body and ministerial heads to utilize it.
"The foundation that we used to uphold
Now regarded as the madness of old
Every alteration made to the standard of truth
Is a nail in the coffin we hold
We embody everything they despise
Because they see us through degenerate eyes
So when they cast you down as intolerant filth
Stand firm, never bow to the lies"
- Relentless Intolerance by Demon Hunter
I dont know if you guys know Neal Morse but he makes great Christian progressive rock, that does not sound at all generic and was the first kind of 'modern' christian music that i truly enjoyed and that easily led my heart to worship. I really mean that, his music is superb to me. If you want to check something out, i'd recommend his Album 'One'.
Also if you are into metal (symphonic, black, death..) my band Sanity makes christian metal. We are veeery small though. If you want to, check out our song 'Throne'.
Pianos were once considered vulgar because they were played in bars.
Just finished worshipping at my Pentacostal church. I fully agree that there's a problem, but as I'm still 17 I don't have a choice but to be here. Pray for me to find a more traditional church when I turn 18.
Come to Rome, God bless :)
Do NOT.⬆️
I’m a 20-year-old protestant trying to find a traditional church to go to in Maryland, but I live far from them and I have no car. So you might have better luck than me, my Christ be with you.
I am literally in the exact same situation as you, Marcus the Moose (Marcus the moose was the edit)
Why is this the same situation I’m in
You lost thousands of people at bashing chocolate-covered brocolli.
Maybe even millions
My main issue with contemporary music is the lyrics. Not only are they less nuanced, rich and meaningful, but they also seem far more individualistic in message (in general). Because of this I feel as if I cannot glorify God to the same extent due to the reduction of depth in these songs.
I don’t hate contemporary music (my church uses some) I just feel like there is a much better way to worship.
The lyrics have evolved over the years. Up until the mid 1990s the overwhelming majority of the lyrics of contemporary worship music were taken straight from scripture (primarily the psalms). Since that point, it's become much more common for them to be completely made up by the writer, so the quality and depth of the lyrics depends entirely on the theological knowledge of the writer. There are some writers who do write songs with comparable depth to old hymns (Stuart Townend being the first one that comes to mind), but most of the writers these days do seem to be more musician than theologian.
Also, it's worth remembering that there are a *lot* of old hymns with lyrics that are not at all nuanced, rich, and meaningful. But the passage of time does a very good job of weeding out the dross. Once the novelty aspect of a song has worn off it needs to have either good lyrics or a good tune that isn't also used for a different song with better lyrics in order for anybody to want to sing it. Without any of those things it falls out of use and into obscurity. And since it's been rare for anybody to write new hymns during the lifetime of any of the people likely to be on this channel (I can only think of two living people who have written hymns, and both of them are also prolific writers of contemporary worship music) the chances of you knowing any of them are almost zero.
like southpark pointed out… you could just take a modern lazy love song and replace “baby” “girl” or “my love” with “Jesus” and you now have a modern Christian song.
This is exactly where I am on the subject. I find that the focus is far too much on the worshipper in CCM, and that the best worship music regardless of genre is theocentric.
Because of this, I don't think genre is the real problem people like Redeemed Zoomer are making it. I think given time (I'm postmill), all genres will be bent in a way toward praising Christ, and the lyrics will be the true fruit judged in the end.
Both. It is both. If you've ever heard a rocked out version of Holy, Holy, Holy then you'll know that it is more that just the lyrics.
I feel the same way but usually was come next to my mind is the Psalms, David and the other authors of psalms used “I” a lot. Idk they seem similar at times
Respectfully, I don’t even know what the argument is here. If I follow it goes like this:
1. Worship music should be beautiful - Please give a scriptural basis for this. I tend to agree but not everyone might.
2. Beauty is objective not subjective - once again I would agree.
3. Contemporary Christian music is not beautiful - Why do you say this? Your argument here seems to be I don’t like it thus it’s not beautiful. It seems as if you assumed that everyone would agree with you on this point.
4. Contemporary Christian music started from a hippie movement - ok who cares. Does that make it illigitimate?
5. Contemporary Christian music is effeminate and Christian music should be strong - why? No scripture is given. “Would you go to a wedding casually?” No but worship music is not a wedding. Were you baptized in a suit and tie? I would argue that a baptism is more important than worship music, but most people probably don’t get baptized in a suit and tie.
6. The vibe of contemporary Christian music is treating God casually - No it isn’t. Most contemporary Christian music is reverent and thankful. Would be helpful if you have some examples here.
7. Contemporary Christian music doesn’t capture the holiness of God - Well it is quite literally impossible to “catch the holiness of God”. If you want to argue that contemporary Christian music isn’t holy then I would disagree with you.
This whole video has absolutely no scripture given and comes down to your personal beliefs and opinions on contemporary Christian music. You don’t believe it is good or holy, but the person next to you might believe it is good and holy.
I agree that concept of music itself is objectively beautiful, but I can’t wrap my head around certain music object-fully beautiful or not beautiful, because EVERYONE’s taste and perception of music is different, and is going to react differently.
💯 Agree
He has a good point tho. Concert worship is effeminate
@@Orthosplode-nx8mz What?
@merlumbien It is tho. Also why would I want to pray in a place that’s loud. I won’t be able to focus!
Disagree with you here, brother.
Modern Christian temporary music can and has been holy & powerful in my life. It CAN be “casual”, if mistreated. But so can anything.
As a modern non-denom myself, I do think classic hymns could be read and appreciated more.
But the Holy Spirit can draw people into truth through modern music.
Love your vids tho!
7:13 "I WANT TO SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY!" -Redeemed "Rockhead" Zoomer, 2024
AS LONG AS IT'S THE AUTHORITY I CHOOSE!
This but unironically ✝️☦️
@@ninjason57
I prayed devoutly to the Lord to lead me to Catholicism if he wanted me to be Catholic.
Lead me to Orthodoxy if he wanted me to be Orthodox.
Lead me to Islam if that were the truth.
But I was lead to a small, elderly congregational church where to this day I continue to grow in my walk, in my ministry in the way.
If I have subjected myself to the Lord's authority, and he has lead me here, who can question? No brother of Christ lest ye claim to be judge.
@@kriegjaeger For a second I thought this was the lyrics of a hard rock or heavy metal song about a guy desperately wanting to find the truth
@danshakuimo goes that hard huh? Haha
I grew up in a Pentecostal church that uses contemporary Christian music and black gospel and I disagree. There is a lot of great and beautiful gospel music that is not effeminate or anti authority. Music that emphasizes God's holiness and majesty. Especially old gospel that were constructed in the 1950s-70s. Sure there is ccm rooted in the Jesus people movement, but there is also gospel music rooted in old hymns and psalms just with more upbeat music. Not all ccm and gospel is rooted in that Jesus movement culture. A lot of black Pentecostal churches like COGIC are very much traditional with hymns, but also uses a lot of gospel music and some ccm.
I don't think contemporary worship music has a single root. The Jesus People movement happened at about the same time as the Charismatic Renewal (where the use of spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues and prophecy jumped across from the Pentecostal movement to other traditions, and also started a bunch of early "non-denominational" churches. And that movement was a major source of this music. It was the Charismatics who started up the writing of contemporary worship music in the UK, and much of this had to do with the way they tried to structure their services around Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 (particularly verses 26-33). And they found that they needed a different style of song than the traditional hymns.
Just because rock music stems from rebellion against authority, it does not mean it cannot be adopted for Christianity. One can rebel against worldly authority, especially if that worldly authority is anti-Christian. A big part of Jesus's early ministry was rebelling against the authority of Pharisees.
However, I agree that the big show-effects with smoke generators and lightshows and all those flashy effects are distracting from worship and should have no place in a church, and also I agree that a lot of contemporary Christian music is of low quality. But this does not mean all are. There are some good ones out there too.
And don't forget, that Bach's works were "contemporary" when he wrote them, so probably there were people in his time saying the same you are saying now, that no modern music should be used for worship.
JSB was hardcore Lutheran, yes, but I remember an anecdote I read somewhere: some fool came to tell him that Catholics were using his music at the churches, he said that it was fine as it was for praising the Lord, if Christians use it to worship God, then everything is OK.
I think the main problem with your argument is that you come from the assumption that worship music could only ever be one thing and have a singular purpose.
You say that worship music should be bold and strong, and I agree in part, I think music with those qualities has a place in church and it should be present, but saying that's the *only* type of music we should have is simply way too close-minded in my opinion.
When I'm at church, sometimes I need to hear a bold and empowering song, that makes me think of the glory of God, of His power over everything, of triump over evil, of His Holiness, etc. But sometimes, I also need to hear music that takes me back to those dark times in my life that Jesus saved me from: the depression, the feeling of inadequacy, of mediocrity, of being unimportant, a failure. Don't misunderstand me, it's not because I want to go back to those times, but because I want to emphasize how weak I am *without* God.
What you see as 'effeminate worship' I would see as recognition of my own weakness, and how God grants me the strength to continue on, the last part of Psalm 73 comes to mind. And I do not see it as a bad thing to break down in tears before God, as a child would before their father.
For these purposes, maybe a hymn would not be the best, maybe a slow, modern worship song works better. Another commenter talked about Metal music and History, how they seemingly don't go together at all, yet Sabaton is one of the more popular Metal bands in recent times, and it got many (myself included) interested in learning history.
Why couldn't we apply a similar principle to Christian Music? *Why can't metal, rock or hip-hop be Christian?*
The origins of those genres do not determine what they can be used for, I do not study nor am I knowledgeable about classical music styles like you, so forgive me if my comparison is flawed; but imagine I composed something in baroque style that sounded horrifying and produced feelings of despair and terror, well baroque arose from Catholics wanting to show their church as more beautiful than Protestant churches, right? So I guess my composition is Catholic, despite it not at all insipiring feelings of holiness and beauty, because that's what the origins of the genre are.
I respect your opinions and your views on theology and all things Christianity, many of your videos have changed my mind about my own personal beliefs, like the one about baptism (I used to have a more baptists view, now I don't). But I think that you are way too close minded on the way that we should go about our worship and congregation.
Cheers and blessings from a small town in Argentina.
Well said.
Amen
Hi, non-denom here. I just got back from helping at church camp, one of our main songs was Good Plans by Red Rock Worship. It’s loud, it’s scriptural, it’s emotional, it’s beautiful, and it’s all about not knowing but fully submitting to Gods plan for us and trusting it’s better than anything. A lot of the lyrics are out of Psalms 23. A line is literally, “we submit to Your plans” shouted out, ‘rock style’.
If music is given to God and the lyrics are Biblical, it’s worship. I agree a lot of music seems to be some kind of blend of contemporary and worship, trying to pass off as both (I call that the Lauren Daigle genre), but my only issue is when lyrics aren’t Biblical. I stoped halfway thru this video cause I’m used to Zoomer’s unnecessarily hot takes on some topics, but I hope he hit on this.
We reclaimed the rainbow, we un-paganizad nearly all Christmas traditions, etc. Rock and raps are styles that people were taught and grown up with. If they can take what they were taught by the world, and give it to God when they come to know Him, so good.
NGL I’m not a big fan of contemporary worship music but this is a piss poor argument. What was is now “traditional” music was once considered new and radical and not considered to be fitting of being in a church. Heck, there were arguments at one point on whether to even HAVE music in church and many of these things were influenced by pagan music. Zoomer’s argument basically just comes down to “because tradition and I like it”. Criticize his contemporary worship music all you want but make good arguments.
Paganism in Western culture had been dead for centuries by the point these arguments came about (pretty much the only remnants of it being astrology, the names of certain days of the week and months of the year, and a handful of cases where worship of a local pagan god had transformed into veneration of an identically named Christian saint many centuries ago). So no, this wasn't pagan music. It was secular music.
@@stephengray1344Martin Luther, on his bid to win more people for Christ, incorporated bar music into his hymns, and that was frown upon as 'incorporating the song of drunkards'.
You can still say the same today.
Love your channel, but this video is pretty irrelevant/silly.
1) There's no indication of what music is objectively beautiful in the Bible. Therefore, the entire video is subjective opinions on the music you already don't like.
2) "You can't make a modern thing traditional". Firstly traditional ≠ objectively right (I.e slavery). Secondly, I'm sure Catholics said the same thing during the reformation.
Could go on but the video feels less about theology & more about you feeling in the minority about liking classical music.
If you want to talk about classical music just do it, no need to wedge in objective beauty ✌️
Agree. Some pretty garbage takes in that vid
Agreed- even as a Catholic, contemporary worship is a problem in our denomination. The a capella songs and traditional forms of the mass are infinitely more reverent and spiritually fulfilling than the charismatic, evangelical-esque contemporary forms of the mass which are becoming increasingly common.
Jesús Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus IIIIIII looooove youuu ohhhhh Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus
@@Skibidivm_Latrinae Said every Christian band, ever
Yeah, the only one I've been able to find that ISNT like that but still is actually Christian is Flyleaf, but they have what, 5 songs?
@@MSKofAlexandriatry Skillet and if you like heavier stuff try Antestor
RC here also, and I agree with you about the traditional music vs. the crapola pop-hymns too often used today 100%.
@@MSKofAlexandria What about Sixpence? Their music is not all very singable, or suitable for hymns, but some are.
They have disbanded, but the music is still there.
"Christian Rock sounds like chocolate covered broccoli."
-Redeemed Zoomer
I get it, if you don't like the SOUND of modern worship music, that's fine, that's your opinion. We all have different tastes in music and what we prefer, are neutral towards, or actively loathe. But I will never tell someone who has been given a gift of musical literacy or a beautiful singing voice that the music they write and sing for God is "objectively bad", or shouldn't be played and make it out to be some modern tasteless garbage or something.
Think about it, all the Phil Wickham's, Brandon Lake's, Brooke Ligertwood's, Cody Carnes', of the world, etc. would you rather they use the talents and gifts they've been given to sing and perform/create secular music in the secular music industry and merely be a passive member in their congregation, or would you rather have the current paradigm, where there are these incredibly talented young believers using their position and gifts to create original music that glorifies God and spreads His Gospel through out the world? Like seriously, what is so horrendous about that that you feel the need to make a 21 minute video complaining about it? God is moving through His people and His Gospel message is being spread to parts of the world that it otherwise never would've reached had it been left to you people confined to the four walls of your liberal-hijacked mainline churches.
And even if you zoom in to the local level. Every Sunday, thousands of churches across the country have worship teams that gather together and volunteer half their Sunday away to serve and glorify God while playing music together and leading a congregation in worship. For many this an important time of fellowship and a bond/connection that they don't get anywhere else. Personally, I fall into this category. I've been playing electric guitar for the last 12 years or so but ever since I started playing for the worship team at my church about 2 years ago everything changed. Playing guitar seems so much more important and impactful now and I feel incredibly grateful to be able to use the talents God has gifted me to worship Him and aid in leading the congregation in worship.
All this isn't to say I don't find an importance in old hymns or historically important worship music. I do, and I think it's extremely important to preserve such music, but I feel a great amount of arrogance and condescension coming from many that are opposed to contemporary worship music. All I ask if that you get down from your high horse and see that bickering over the musical genre/style that people choose to worship to is perhaps the very least of our problems in the church in America today. And it's especially rich coming from those who are in denominations who are on the brink of self destruction due to the rejection of some of the most basic truths found in Gospels. If I had to chose between the two: a theologically dead church with dwindling attendance and progressive LGBT pastors, or a thriving church where the Gospel is being fiercely proclaimed and God is at work, but perhaps has mediocre and maybe even subpar worship services. I know which one I'm choosing...
I reminded of the story of Jesus being anointed by Mary of Bethany in Mark 14. Mark 14:6-8 "'Leave her alone', Jesus said. 'Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial.'"
I will never condemn or scorn a fellow believer who, in genuine sincerity and gratitude, is using the resources and talents at their disposal to give glory and honor to God in an act of worship.
As a wise man once said "You're not making Christianity better. You're just making rock and roll worse."
Took me too long to find this comment
Woah, I was not expecting Torelli to be mentioned.
Based Torelli enjoyer??
@@redeemedzoomer6053 There's not many quality recordings of obscure Baroque composers, so I haven't listened to enough Torelli to properly asses his music. Although his music that I have listened to, I enjoyed. Mostly I just find his name funny (being so close to Corelli's).
@redeemedzoomer6053 listen to the color green by rich mullins!!! Objectively beautiful CCM.
What if the rock/metal is rebelling against a degenerate culture? Take straight edge punk for example
Also, as a life long metalhead, I can say that metal/rock/punk is more about individuality than simply rebellion, once the scene starts to tyranize it's members about who they're allowed to be, it begins to contradict itself
Twisted Sister literally made a metal song that’s explicitly anti-hell
@@dillanjohnson6797 This, I noticed that most Christian rock is about going against modern sinful culture, rebelling against a society who pushed anti-biblical values and lifestyles which are normal nowadays
Exactly, true punk rock now would be conservative and Christian
@@bruhmingo sadly there's still an aura of hostility towards those beliefs in the scene
"i WANNA SUB-MITT TO AUTHORRITYYY"
If you consider worship to be like water in a bottle, and hymns are a typical bottle size, and contemporary style songs are like a square “figi” bottle. What matters inside is the water. It matters NOT which shape of bottle the water comes in, but rather the water’s purity.
I’ll agree that there are contemporary artists who tinge the “water” with showmanship, and turn it into a performance for a show rather than worship. But modern-style worship music is still worship. If it glorifies God and celebrates Christ as the son of God who died for our sins, and proclaims his name, then it’s worship. Because hymns and “traditional” worship songs have only been around for a few centuries, and were written using music theory conventions of the time. They didn’t have the instruments , technology, and music knowledge that we have today. So, the Christians of today are absolutely allowed to offer praise and worship in a modern style unto the Lord, so long as He is in the center of the praise.
Heavy metal music is *objectively* beautiful. You ask anyone what the best version of Carol of the Bells is, and they’ll all tell you that the Trans-Siberian Orchestra version is the best one.
I think it always comes down to why the music is being made. Wasn’t there that Christian rock band that was disbanded because their lead singer came out and said he was an atheist the entire time? Or am I misremembering. Digressing, it’s the: are they making music to glorify God or are they making music because they had a deadline to put a single out by midnight Friday?
You could have music made with the best intentions that still objectively sucks lol
@@redeemedzoomer6053Objectively sucks in quality, yes but still objectively good in spirit. God will listen to the purest of hearts regardless if they are intellectually and artistically capable of producing high quality music. Trust me, I agree the works of CCM pale in comparison to Bach and Handel (I have a music degree and am a published composer) but the intent of the music does matter an awful lot when performing it for worship.
@@redeemedzoomer6053I agree, though I think what always gets left out of this discussion is the different purposes of music. Some songs are for thoughtful meditation or worship, some are for energized dancing and increasing joy, some are for mourning and expression of sorrow or angst, etc. And all these are good purposes that should be pursued. But CCM so often focuses on increasing joy to the exclusion of all other purposes (on top of being painfully uninspired). Meanwhile traditional hymns often can't/don't express complexities of emotion as well as rock/pop/indie can (at least in my experience). That's why my favorite band is half•alive, which is a Christian band that doesn't 'sound Christian' but the lyrics are Christian when you stop to think about them, just like some of twenty-one pilots's songs
I like a triumphant tune when I tune up the temple
For Today has a song called Open Eyes which is basically about rebelling against the devil by submitting to Christ, and I think it totally works.
Genres and their themes evolve, and I just don’t see how you can maintain that nowadays rock = rebellion against all authority. It’s so much broader than that
My mom is actually the music director at our Catholic Church, so she is in charge of choosing which music is played at Mass. I think she usually goes 50/50 with traditional and newer songs. All the songs that she can choose from are pre-approved for Catholic Mass by the same company that provides our hymnals. Each of the five hymns that she chooses from each Mass has a role (I actually wrote an essay about this for school) and she spends a fair amount of time deciding with hymns are good for each week. She also likes songs that are fun to play and sound pretty, because honestly who doesn’t. But I believe just because a song is fun and new doesn’t automatically make it contemporary. There are several songs that follow the same melody (it is because of this that I am sick of Ode To Joy) but have different words and different meanings. And there are older traditional songs that kinda make me wanna get up and dance. Catholic music isn’t the best, but when your the daughter of a music director, it’s pretty interesting.
I don’t know what to think this, I was raised in an Hispanic Pentecostal church and music was always lively. It took me a while to get use to the music in the UMC church I began to attend my 20s. In my view worshipping God should have a restriction on musical genres. I believe God will accept any form of worship that is fully dedicated to him. I prefer both lively and traditional. Also worship music genre is not only determined by denomination but also by culture, I’m from Puerto Rico and I’ve visited and seen Pentecostal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, and Adventist churches worship in lively music, old hymns but in a modern worship style. Worship differs by cultures. I might be in the minority in this but I think both are good in the eyes and ears of God. Now if rock n roll is from rebellious origins, what is Protestants? We rebelled against the authority of Rome, in a way Protestants are rockers, 😂.
I get the argument that church isn’t supposed to feel like a concert - with smoke machines and flashing lights, but in the end we all worship God in our own way. Some choose traditional methods like hymns and repeated prayers, while others choose to praise with a microphone and an electric piano keyboard. I believe that God doesn’t love one way and hate the other. We’re told that true worship is how we live out our lives and how we conduct ourselves - all according to the Bible.
I am for that argument however at my Pentecostal church it does not it however is engaging and electric.
I can listen to bands like Theocracy at home on my own time. Church should have hymns.
According the to the bible you can't worship God it your own way, A Guy died it the bible for trying to do that
@@ChaceRicenadab and abihu
@@ChaceRicebecause it was specified. Was it specified for us?
I teach at a McMegachurch school that features a handful of K-love bops over the course of a school year.
In my LCMS parish we sing every verse of 10-12 hymns weekly. There's more theological depth in one Mass than my students have heard in their entire life.
I haven’t made much progress in the video yet but as a Catholic I don’t think modern praise and worship has a place in the mass but praise and worship nights/adoration? I love it there!
I find no issue with newer styles of worship just like I don't find issues with the older styles. Of course I am not saying everything is a go when it comes to worship, but everyone has a different song that their soul sings in worship of the Lord, it shouldn't really matter what style it is, as long as it is worship.
i happened to go to the corner store without my phone and listened the radio. It was set at some Christian station and the song was one of the most horrible generic pop songs I had ever heard, just with lyrics praising God. I guess its a better message than most modern pop music but it still is bad for the spiritual soul to listen to it.
Been loooooong looking forward to a video like this. Lack of fundamental beauty in praise and worship songs is something I've felt for a long time, but not been able to really articulate. Thanks for making this!
Beauty is culturally defined. According to the God of the Bible, every music genre is beautiful
Might it be better to just stick with Gregorian Chants?
@@samw7998 1- did you watch the video 2- have you any way to possibly prove that? I don't think you can.
NGL I’m not a big fan of contemporary worship music but this is a piss poor argument. What was is now “traditional” music was once considered new and radical and not considered to be fitting of being in a church. Heck, there were arguments at one point on whether to even HAVE music in church and many of these things were influenced by pagan music. Zoomer’s argument basically just comes down to “because tradition and I like it”. Criticize his contemporary worship music all you want but make good arguments.
@samw7998 where does Tue Bible say every form of music is beautiful because that's simply not true
Thank God for this video, I was wanting a whole video dedicated to this topic. My almost 50 years old mother loves contemporary christian music and I love traditional hymns and she calls me old fashioned for that.
Worship music/singing is meant to praise God and edifty the church. This is done primarily through the lyrics. Lyrics should be true, glorify God, and be understandable to the singers/listeners (bare minimum in the language of the hearers). It is also helpful if the lyrics are easy to remember, rhymeing and music help with this. Music should aid in remembering and hearing the lyrics, music that makes it hard to understand the lyrics hurts the songs ability to edify the listeners.
The purpose of worship is to glorify God, submmit ourselves to Him. And this is best signified by solemnity, so we should have solemn musics, solemn architecture, solemn clothing and art etc. The moment we set appart to worship God is a solemn moment and deserves to be treated as such
How does your view fit with passages like Psalm 33:1, Psalm 63:3, Psalm 100:2, and Psalm 145:7 that tell us to sing joyful songs to God? I find that it's very difficult to sing joyfully whilst also being solemn.
@@stephengray1344 I doubt the priests were singing euphoric songs while doing their rituals at the Temple. Yes, we must be joyful, but there is a moment for everything
@@igorlopes7589 you've made zero points with zero scriptural backings in your reply. The reply above gave scriptures, either elaborate on them or bring out some scriptures too. The bible doesn't care about your feelings or what you just think.
@@triton6771 The psalms just talk about joyful music, not about the music used at the Temple sounding like a pentecostal meeting
@@igorlopes7589 sorry, you just sound like you have a personal vendetta against anything pentecostal. Not saying you can't be critical, pentecostal surely has lots of flaws, but yours sounds more like an agenda and hinders you from bringing up any scriptural points one can actually learn from.
Hi Zoomer, Catholic youth minister here. I have proper music education, and background in performing, teaching and applying both contemporary music (that we use for our youth groups and parish renewal communities) and traditional liturgical hymns and psalms that we use for Masses. I think your view is oversimplifying something that goes way deeper and needs a more careful and charitable assessment. Let me briefly address just a few points of contention that you've made:
1. "Rock music was made for rebellion against authority, so contemporary Christian music that comes from rock roots can't be used in the Christian context". First of all, this is a genetic fallacy. I know you mention later in the video that you're not trying to make one, but just mentioning it, doesn't undo your clear use of it in this video. It should go without saying, that all of the music we now see as traditional and "classical" was once upon a time a total novelty that surely sounded out of place in the Churches and was coming to us from the outside. What the Church originally inherited was Jewish hymns and psalms that 1st century Christians were singing in their house meetings. Everything else comes from the outside, or is something totally new and alien that was invented from scratch. You're saying your argument isn't genetic fallacy, because contemporary Christian music is still about rebellion, but that is demonstrably false. There is plenty of contemporary Christian music that reflects proper theology of submission in the lyrics through and through. Hillsong's "I surrender" comes to mind, but there are countless thousands of examples. This argument doesn't work on any level.
2. "Jesus culture movement invented contemporary Church music, and they were trying to invent something that sounded unlike Church, on purpose" I think you'd need to back up claims like those. It's true Jesus movement was unorthodox, but accusing them of being anti-church, by design? And these tendencies being reflected in their worship? This can't simply be assumed. If you're trying to say they were simply inventing a completely new musical style for worship without blueprint of the earlier classical music, we're going back to the genetic fallacy, and to the fact that all of our "classical" music, was once a whole new idea that someone just came up with. I don't think there's any "objective" argument you've made here proving to us all contemporary Christian music is inherently anti-church like. It is more dynamic and engaging than most classical music, but I don't think you've properly built your case to claim this is an "anti-church" feature of music. There certainly are, and always have been, plenty of very engaging, emotional, and dynamic classical pieces that have been used in Lutheran, Anglican and my Catholic churches for ages. Just the fact that MOST classical pieces are more calm, stoic and provoking contemplation rather than emotions, doesn't make those rare, more dynamic pieces anti-church in nature. If anything, you're protesting the general "vibe" of each style here more than anything else, and that is truly subjective critique, something you were saying you're trying to avoid. There are many modern worship songs that have very classical, stoic, even dramatic vibe to them. There have always been classical pieces that have been more dynamic. This is a difference of emphasis, and that can't be final for our discernment process here.
3. "Contemporary music is too feminine." This, I have to disagree with even more than the previous two. Take my word for it when I tell you, that vast majority of contemporary Christian songs have been written and composed by MALE solo singers and reflect their thoughts and feelings through and through. It's also confusing to me, why would you say contemporary music reflects rebellion while it should be all about submission - with one breath, and than claim contemporary music is too feminine with the other, when submission is distinctly female attribute in the traditional Christian family model and tradition more generally. Contemporary Christian songs are even technically written to only reach high enough notes for the male voices to manage, making them more engaging for men in general. Meanwhile, vast majority of songs for traditional choir that I teach my students, have the leading soprano voice. This means, lay people sitting in our pews, would not be even capable of singing and engaging in these pieces at all, because they wouldn't be capable of reaching those tunes, or even coming close. If you're trying to say that contemporary Christian music talks too much about our emotions, than once again, this is faulty logic. There are countless psalms in the Bible that talk specifically about emotions. David, the warrior king with the heart aligned with the mind of God - how could he, of all people write too much about emotions? And much of the contemporary songs I know are quoting psalms, word by word at that.
It's fine to not like contemporary style. But you've got to back it up a lil better if you wanna claim your arguments are objective, and grounds to "throwing out" a whole genre of beautiful songs that were made to glorify God. There's place for BOTH in our Churches.
CCM is really good at “feeling” rich and deep, when it almost always is shallow.
The emotional response I feel singing Psalm 85 or the third verse of “It Is Well” is far better than anything I felt from charismatic worship.
Large portions of traditional worship music are also shallow. However those songs are the ones that fell out of use decades or centuries ago. And despite contemporary worship music moving away from using Biblical passages for their lyrics during the 1990s there are still significant portions of it which are deep and meaningful (something like Stuart Tonwend's "In Christ Alone, for example). And when it comes to charismatic worship, the songs should be being used primarily as a corporate response to whatever prophecies, interpretations of tongues, or other contributions have been brought. If the worship isn't being led by use of the gifts then it isn't charismatic in any meaningful sense.
So, what people are stating right now about new Christian music, is not about an objection to non-traditional stylistic features but it is a critique on the (at times lack there of) biblical and sound doctrine? - I would also like there to be a resurgence of Biblical doctrinally sound Contemporary Christian Music/CCM (this exists but we need more). Although reading the Bible (Word of God) is the true way to learn to follow God’s teachings, and preaching is a way to reach others into accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but hymns/songs are part of worshiping God - songs can contain a lot of Biblically sound messages (that has a lot of information kinda similar to a sermon) than can help with evangelism (it has worked before with old and new hymns, but many modern hymns of today need some work on actively and precisely teaching biblically sound doctrine that both worships God, reminds us of God’s teach, and reaches unbelievers.
If content of the lyrics rather than stylistic features/genre is the case, it’s a (relatively) valid criticism; but when it comes to stylistic features: so long as the contents of the song is biblical, the stylistic features/genre is clear/audible, and it does not become a stumbling block to those within the specific congregation/setting (e.g. trying to not unsettle older people/people who grew up singing old traditional-style hymns), I don’t mind if we Christians (Evangelical Christians) use modern musical stylistic features. If stylistic features had been a problem, we would have had hymns of Ecclesiastical Latin Chant music like the Roman Catholics of old, like the Orthodox who still use non-vernacular styles of music/liturgical languages like Koine Greek, Syriac and Aramaic, Ge’ez, Coptic, Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, Old Georgian, etc. that have little-to-no native speakers - or the New Testament would have been written in Biblical Hebrew (Jewish liturgical language) rather than Koine Greek which was the lingua franca of the time, the Protestant Reformation dealing with using the vernacular would have been moot, the use of other cultural music tradition would be frowned upon, and we would probably have still been using Jewish musical styles if we weren’t allowed to use our own musical styles rooted in our cultural traditions while stil maintaining theological conservatism/Biblical orthodoxy in the contents of the hymns’ lyrics (FYI/General Statement to All: the “traditional hymns” or “traditional sacred music” that many of us know them as in the United States/Western World are only traditional to those locations and once were the same stylistic features used in secular music in centuries past - think secular sea shanty music, English folk music, etc. -, while others around the world have their own traditional styles but keep the same biblically orthodox teachings of true Christianity). But if a certain musical style is too distracting or becomes uncomfortable, it should be limited to certain settings or not be used in corporate worship as determined through discernment; although we have liberty in this matter - we should also strive to not be a stumbling block to others.
I do agree to an extent, but I’m not entirely sure it’s fair to say an entire genre or style of music fails to capture the holiness of God while this other style does because of a few reasons, 1. I don’t think anything on this earth that we create can even come close to capturing the holiness of God and 2. I think you can’t judge and entire genre or style of music I think you need to take by a case by case basis. The proof of this is that there isn’t 1 genre or style of music where every song in that style is good. Every style has good and bad songs. HOWEVER I do think it is very true that some modern churches and music treat God casually. I don’t think you need to have a strict dress code at a church, but you should have the church understand the idea that church is very serious and you should treat it as such. You shouldn’t judge someone who comes to church who may only own the shirt on their back because they aren’t wearing a 3 piece suit. Either way, I think zoomer is on to something and I do think is a good take if a little extreme
i would like to start by saying - Go to or stay at a church the Lord guides you to.
Now i can agree that Bethel and contemporary worship music has a major problem, for they are money first and they focus on the money aspect, and not the God aspect of music. I recently had the opportunity to join Petra on tour, and i can tell you that when it comes to opening bands, it has never been more evident to me that a band can pretend to be christian, say the right stuff, sing something connected to the Bible, and have no anointing or blessing from God. alternatively there are many bands and songs that can be simplistic, but are blessed and anointed, and have the Spirit present when played and listened to.
Now i have to say I hadn't heard of Petra before i was asked as part of a prayer ministry to join the group on tour, however just hearing them play, their heart for God, and their sound theology while the Spirit moves heavily is the most amazing experience I've had musically. we also had some amazing opening bands like Hope's Creed, the Martell Brothers, and Gabriel Marchuk (if you like 21 pilots you'll like him) that are filled and blessed with God's anointing.
All in all, the problem with modern music is contemporary sounds driven by Mammon (the spirit of greed, comfort, etc.) that works to put the church to sleep. We must as a body work to accept and bless those that God anoints and stop accepting music that the Spirit does not participate with. Test the theology and the spirit of the music you listen to and worship with.
God be with you brothers and sisters in Christ
also Zoomer if you read this listen to some Petra, as they are the epitome of good Christian rock. i agree a lot of Christian rock is meh, but Petra was the real breakthrough of Christian rock because it fully submits to God and is theologically sound
not that they are good for worship in a service, however our listening music is also important to have as Christ centered
This argument overlooks the fact that the blending of sacred and secular divides has been happening long before the rise of popular worship music. Lutheran hymn ‘Herzlich tut mich verlangen’ uses the tune from secular love song ‘Mein G’mut ist mir verwirret’ and Luther writes In the preface to the Wittenberg Gesangbuch ‘These, are set for four voices for no other reason than that I wished that the young might have something to rid them of their love ditties and wanton songs.’ Bach also on occassion would use tunes from popular music as the melodies in his hymns. Popular music idioms is not only a substititute for secular culture (e.g. Contemporary Christian Music Rock, Pop, Rap, Metal) but is also used as a tool to make the songs more accesible to the congregation for them to sing along to rather than learn new styles of music. Also there are some bad hymns out there. Many hymns at the end of the 19th Century were too difficult / uncomfortable to sing for the congregation. Many modern hymns are heavily influenced by Vaughan Villiams the composer of The English Hymnal and Songs of Praise who adapted these 'broken' hymns and made them suitable for church - he was an athiest.
Zoomer, I think you're misunderstanding contemporary worship. The electric guitar is a symbol of Christ's energizing presence. The worship-band is a symbol of the angelic choir. The skinny jeans are a symbol of God's indelible grace. The fog machine is a symbol of the Holy Spirit's omnipresence, produces incense, and recreates the setting of Mount Horeb. When the pastor uses speakers, it's the Father speaking with a thunderous voice. The casual clothes that are brought symbolize the filthy rags that constitute our works.
I may need to do a response video. For a critique of contemporary worship music, there wasn’t a lot of critique of the music itself or the lyrics, which I was shocked since many people claim that modern contemporary worship music is bad because the lyrics are too vague and uninspired (which I feel is an unfair generalization). You say it doesn’t capture the holiness of God, yet I’ve encountered the holiness of God through contemporary worship music. I also wouldn’t call it effeminate either. As an aspiring worship leader I have a very passionate and strong voice and have felt extreme strength and masculinity in contemporary worship. Over all, I think you’re objectively wrong. I’d say many contemporary worship songs are objectively beautiful. This isn’t my personal subjective opinion, but a fact. For someone emphasizing the truth of objective value and beauty, I find it ironic you haven’t actually mentioned real measurable problems with the music itself, and have only made completely untrue statements and mentioned origins of that style that aren’t at all relevant. (And the idea Christian rock or metal can’t exist is preposterous and best). Overall, this seems like a subjective opinion piece rather than an objective overview of contemporary worship. It just seems like you don’t like the music. Which is fine. Not everyone will like objectively beautiful art or understand every style. But, for a video meant to speak on objectivity and condemn those who ignore objective beauty, which I agree with, you haven’t actually done that yourself and have instead come to the objectively wrong conclusion the CCM is bad.
This is the video you did not know that you needed!
RZ, can you actually give us definitions and concrete examples of what is and isn't objectively beautiful worship music?
I have my own problems with many moden worship bands and songs, but none of this rant was backed up with scripture. And if you're claiming some sort of objective standard to beauty in terms of style of music, you absolute need to back that up with something. Anything really.
I studied Bach chorals at school, and as clever and theoretically perfect they are (by their own rules) I really don't find them beautiful, I find them dull for the most part. On the same note, what makes JS Bach "objectively" the best composer of worship music? How can something like that be quantified?
I can't stand the vast majority of modern worship music, but equally so many of the old hyms have the exact same problems for me. They're boring and repetitive. Their melodies sound like nursery rhymes. So many of the melodies, harmonies and accompaniment sound more or less the same. So many of the lyrics are simply not suitable for people living in the 21st century because language has changed. The organ (in my very subjective opinion) is probably the most boring instrument to ever exist. It takes a ridiculously talented organist to make me excited about a piece of organ music.
I understand it's not the church's job to change to suit the world, but people have to understand what they are singing, and if they are bored stiff of the style in which they are singing, are they really worshipping together?
why not spice it up a little? After all, that's what Bach did in his day.
I have the same issues with this video. I don’t see anything in Scripture that would be against CCM and the challenge with saying something is objectively bad is there needs to be a clearly stated standard for what is objectively good, and then explain why a certain thing does not meet that standard. God is the objective standard for what is good, true, and beautiful. My question is, how does CCM largely not meet that standard? Also, is the standard based on the quality of the music or the intent in which the music is written for? Or is it both, and why? These are the things RZ needs to clarify, I think.
That being said, this is essentially an opinion video so I don’t think it was his intention to give a Bible-based take. It’s just what he thinks.
Shout to the Lord All the earth let us sing
Power and majesty Praise to the King
Mountains bow down And the sea will roar
At the sound of Your Name
What does that have to do with anything?
@@Basedorthodoxchad its never a bad thing to praise God! :)
@@user-wc1wn5rt5v Would traditional worship not be praising God? It is literally in the name worship it is worship just more ordered.
What’s funny about that song is that it’s so old most people wouldn’t even call it contemporary. I wouldn’t be surprised to find it in a hymnal.
@@Basedorthodoxchad CCM would also be praising God! ☺️ Tradition ≠ Good, just as Contemporary ≠ Bad, or viceversa. Both styles of music are welcome in the church! God loves you, my brother in Christ ❤️
Tbh the argument here does not stand up to scrutiny. None of your arguments in this matter do. Here, it’s simply just the genetic fallacy.
Is CCM more edifying than hymns or psalms?
@@hismajesty6272 CCM and hymns can be equally edifying.
I do enjoy contemporary worship, but I agree that some of it goes too far
I am a big fan of traditional protestant hymns, but being a small-ish rural church, we don't have access to a beautiful pipe organ -- we have a 1970s-era electric organ that just sounds dated and tired -- and it's difficult to find anyone who can even play that thing. I'd much rather find a way of doing contemporary arrangements of classic hymns with acoustic guitar, etc, akin to what the Norton Hall Band does. The theology and poetry of these songs have power. I get the appeals to classic beauty, but their is nothing classical nor beautiful about a 50-year-old Yamaha organ on its last leg.
Thank you, Zoomer. I’ve had this feeling as a hunch for a while, but couldn’t find a way to put it into words.
Having written a number of traditional-styled hymns myself, I'd additionally note that hymns encapsulate more actual theology than CCM typically does.
I am admittedly rather salty over having my music passed over for CCM, fwiw.
Yo is there a place where I could listen to your hymns, if they're fire I'll add em to my music playlist
Replying to be notified of this treasure trove.
Beauty is Christian by definition, there shouldn't be a distinction between a Radiohead song that is true and a ccm song. Though there is a place for that, but not in church.
Good examples of modern "Christian" bands are:
Strahan
Topher Daniels - empty graves
Dirt poor robins
My Epic
Christians need to get past u2 and switch foot, and Dave Matthews. That's like there only reference point. Learn from led Zeppelin, but don't follow them. St Basil wrote a treatise on how to read the pagan texts.
So, what people are stating right now about new Christian music, is not about an objection to non-traditional stylistic features but it is a critique on the (at times lack there of) biblical and sound doctrine? - I would also like there to be a resurgence of Biblical doctrinally sound Contemporary Christian Music/CCM (this exists but we need more). Although reading the Bible (Word of God) is the true way to learn to follow God’s teachings, and preaching is a way to reach others into accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but hymns/songs are part of worshiping God - songs can contain a lot of Biblically sound messages (that has a lot of information kinda similar to a sermon) than can help with evangelism (it has worked before with old and new hymns, but many modern hymns of today need some work on actively and precisely teaching biblically sound doctrine that both worships God, reminds us of God’s teach, and reaches unbelievers.
If content of the lyrics rather than stylistic features/genre is the case, it’s a (relatively) valid criticism; but when it comes to stylistic features: so long as the contents of the song is biblical, the stylistic features/genre is clear/audible, and it does not become a stumbling block to those within the specific congregation/setting (e.g. trying to not unsettle older people/people who grew up singing old traditional-style hymns), I don’t mind if we Christians (Evangelical Christians) use modern musical stylistic features. If stylistic features had been a problem, we would have had hymns of Ecclesiastical Latin Chant music like the Roman Catholics of old, like the Orthodox who still use non-vernacular styles of music/liturgical languages like Koine Greek, Syriac and Aramaic, Ge’ez, Coptic, Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, Old Georgian, etc. that have little-to-no native speakers - or the New Testament would have been written in Biblical Hebrew (Jewish liturgical language) rather than Koine Greek which was the lingua franca of the time, the Protestant Reformation dealing with using the vernacular would have been moot, the use of other cultural music tradition would be frowned upon, and we would probably have still been using Jewish musical styles if we weren’t allowed to use our own musical styles rooted in our cultural traditions while stil maintaining theological conservatism/Biblical orthodoxy in the contents of the hymns’ lyrics (FYI/General Statement to All: the “traditional hymns” or “traditional sacred music” that many of us know them as in the United States/Western World are only traditional to those locations and once were the same stylistic features used in secular music in centuries past - think secular sea shanty music, English folk music, etc. -, while others around the world have their own traditional styles but keep the same biblically orthodox teachings of true Christianity). But if a certain musical style is too distracting or becomes uncomfortable, it should be limited to certain settings or not be used in corporate worship as determined through discernment; although we have liberty in this matter - we should also strive to not be a stumbling block to others.
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck Still not got them all recorded at suitable quality for publication unfortunately, but when I do I think I'll probably upload them to CZcams itself.
I used to think as you do. But I began to realize that while it didn't appeal to me, it did appeal to a good number of my brothers and sisters in Christ. What I personally saw as corny and repeatative was also moving the hearts and souls of others to sing out earnest praise to God. As it is written: "For the one who is not against us is for us." So while I still find CCM to be cheesy and repeatative, I follow along with my siblings in Christ to the best of my ability as we sing praise and worship unto him.
I just wanted to ask, what actually counts as contemporary worship? Because I go to a PCA church but the type of music seems alright according to what you are talking about
Christian metal seems to tend toward lyrics that do rebel, however instead of rebellion against a physical authority, it is rebellion against the ways of the world and rebellion against self and the temptation of sin.
Lol I find it funny that Orthodoxy already jumped on the whole punk/metal thing with the whole Death to the World - The Last True Rebellion thing, complete with skulls and dark clothes
It's called Soldiers Under Command by Stryper, Zoomer. Enjoy the rabbit hole I made for you. Now, I agree, during worship, stick to the hymns. Just wanted to drop this little bomb on you.
Nice. Idk if he would like it musically but those lyrics are right up Zoomer’s alley
Idk, u make a good point with the beauty and truth point but at the same time, weren’t a lot of the old hymns we had at some point new as well?
Rock music came from black electric blues and country music, what are you saying dude
did you expect redeemed zoomer, the ultra conservative presbyterian yankee, to actually know that?
Not a Christian but regarding rock could you not argue that submitting to the authority of god is rebelling against the secular culture and therefore rock is compatible with Christianity
I was thinking this too
"so what do you do for a living?"
"i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses
i write modern worship choruses"
My Anglican church in England has traditional hymns in the first service and more contemporary in the second service.
I know what you mean about the hymns being beautiful, Amazing Grace is a wonderful worship song, and there certainly are some contemporary songs that are just bad songs.
But there are others that are great worship songs.
The lyrics are very moving and focussed on God's love and glory and I really don't think the Lord is upset by these songs
Your discussion about evangelicals being casual and mainlines being more traditional and sacred is so true, and it's even true in weddings. The evangelical Christian couples will have their wedding in a barn with their own made-up wedding vows and a chick playing acoustic guitar and singing a Hillsong song as the bride walks down the aisle. A mainline couple will get married in a church with the traditional vows and a hymn on the organ for the processional. And the traditional wedding is so much more beautiful.
Love what you’re doing Redeemed Zoomer! Here’s a thought…
In Genesis 1, God created humanity, blessed them, and said “be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it.” People often take that to mean that God blessed us to “make babies!” Which it does, but it also means that God blessed us to make art, culture, build cities, and just be creative!
It seems to me, the objective good does not reside in a certain genre of music, but is in the creative act of making things.
Keep up the good work RZ! I love to see more of us young Christians with passion for Jesus and his church.
Strange take here, I like contemporary Christian music and hymns. I think they both have value in different ways. The church I attend and serve at is conservative, non denominational, and worships with traditional style music and hymns.
I think it’s also good to remember when Christianity develops in various countries with new believers, they are going to worship in a manner that suits their cultural context.
What is your opinion on the Fortnite heresy? Some Gen Alpha believe Fortnite created the world.
Yeah, obviously skibidi toilet did
That aint no heresy thats the truth
Is Gen Z now making fun of Gen Alpha?
@@Procopius464 Yeah, we have become the new mellenials 😂
@@nickthegreat4957 Well, if you're going to be doing that, make sure you don't act like what you're criticizing. Make sure you aren't on your phone all the time, stay off ticktock, read physical books, pay with cash, don't use your phone for everything, don't download corporate apps on your phone, and don't use weird colloquialisms when you talk. I have kids that are Gen Alpha, but from what I've seen of their friends there isn't a discernable difference between Gen Z and Alpha. Same bad parenting, same bad habits and tendencies in both generations. I don't let my kids have phones, and I don't let them use colloquialisms. I also make my older son spend an hour each day reading from a physical book. You have to be like that.
my guy, I love you but rock and Christianity absolutely go very well together. Ever heard of Flyleaf and Lacey Sturm especially? It's some of the most amazing music and is overtly Christian. Also, Let go by Set for the fall is literally a Christian metal song about letting to and wanting God to take over
I actually have an issue with the objective beauty argument cuz unless you try and argue that there is no subjective beauty, everyone does agree that there is some level of objectivity in music (eg. in vs out of tune/time)
I'm curious what you would say to someone like my brother, he doesn't like music (which is strange considering my dad has a degree in music; and my mom, sister, and I all love to sing), and he probably wouldn't say any music is beautiful.
my takeaway was "it better be traditional church or it isn't effective church"
none of the early church had bach's hymns or fancy clothes.
you made a massive point on objective truth then turned around at the end to say that it didn't matter if non-traditional churches used contemporary worship music or not. that confused me, because up to that point i had felt like that was the whole point of the video.
reading matthew 15:1-9 led me to think. "why do you transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
i am not trying to say that traditional church is bad for its traditions, but i can't stand by saying modern worship music is bad worship music by criticizing its musical structure. it is music made to worship the Lord.
"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
i have no hate for this channel. i have strongly agreed with other videos from redeemedzoomer. but this one overstepped it a little with the fallacy saying that christian rock is rebellious because it emerged from rebellious places. that is like saying you have an italian accent because you are eating spaghetti (i am hungry now.) it is saying that because you are partaking in something, that you have some of the same intention as those who started it, and that that is an irrevocable reality; like a stain you can't remove. but just saying, is there a stain God can't remove?
and i am also not trying to say i do not have any issues with modern worship either. but saying that it is bad because it doesn't have a rhythmic choir piece singing psalms is not an objective fact. saying that because worship music is modern then everyone knows it has to suck, be complex, and ugly is subjective. me personally: not a massive classical music listener. i don't throw on chorales when i want to be near God, because they are not exactly my taste.
i think any worship music by people that are focusing on worshiping God for who he is and what he has done is objectively beautiful, but not because of the music.
the main thing is that worship music is beautiful because we are hearing a child of God express their love of the Creator.
it doesn't have to be the same music for everyone. we don't have to enforce one kind of music on people when even though the heart may be beautiful, the music may frankly just not be enjoyable to all. that, i think, is my main issue with this video; that the focus is more on the music than the Lord.
i do not agree with this video, but that is ok. zoomer, you have stated your opinion, which, even though i do not view it as correct, is your opinion. i have reached my opinion through studying the word and my personal experience with worship of my Lord and savior. i cannot deny you validity or freedom of speech because with hope, you reached your opinion the same way.
thanks for putting your time into this video. no, really! i appreciate that you are willing to stand for your opinion. your video made me think, and not a lot of videos do that these days.
(and i did like your build.) have a good day |:)
Quite frankly, the lack of objective beauty is why I was convinced that the more orthodox churches had more truth than prots. God is the source of beauty so it makes sense that the more beautiful a church is on average the closer to god they are.
Hello Zoomer, i am having a bit of trouble finding a good Reformed/Presbyterian church in my area. I looked on the Historic Church map and the Operation Reconquista map and there are no churches near me. So what do you think i should do? Great video BTW
With your comment on Schoenberg in mind, what do you think of axis tonality such as Bartók or Quartal and Quintal harmony such as Mathias and Messiaen to an extent?
The only ways that worship is mentioned in the Bible is sacrifice and kneeling/falling to the ground in adoration and thanksgiving. Worship is adoring or sacrificing to God. All these other things peoooe point to to justify emotionalism based concert and dancing praise do not use the words worship or point to how those people acted in the temple or in the presence of the ark. If you want figure out if something is worship or not ask yourself. “Since God cannot Worship as he is the premier being. God can sing praise to people or generate other people or honor other people why he cannot do is worship other people. Also the mass is the perfection of true worship.
I do believe that worship can be dancing and singing, because that is also part of praising the Lord. But certain things do not belong in weekly church liturgy. As Paul said, the gatherings should be proper and orderly managed. I do not agree with songs that do not even mention, God, Christ or scripture at all. Or songs that are not properly chosen to match the message and scripture. You are not worshipping, you are vibing with your emotions.
To add to this, I would mention the fruit. CCM is basically a way to get recognised as “anointed” (ie talented with charisma). CCM is about album sales, tours, and personalities and “fans”.
How does any of that glorify God? Or are we just using the name of God to make a career for ourselves?
This is perfect timing, I literally just got back from visiting a very contemporary non-denom church that met in a theater. The sermon was good tho
Also, a Protestant named Georg Handel wrote “Messiah” aka, the Hallelujah chorus.
Listen to “I Am” by Theocracy.
So glad to see this, that's a theologically deep, beautiful and heavy song with complex arrangement. Love theocracy.
And this is one of the reasons I like old Traditions I come from a Baptist church and I'm Burned out
Leaving this comment now though I don't have time to watch rn. One thing that seems missing from modern CCM that was overflowing in the late 80s and into the 90s was a sense of overwhelming joy from writing a song for the Lord *in the song for the Lord.*
A song I've been unable to get enough of lately is "When Justice Rolls Down" by Michael Pearce Donley. He's a relative nobody, just writing a song about how great his God is, and how amazing it is that he's perfectly just. That joy is missing from CCM, as everything gets published to make money.
There does seem to have been a notable change in contemporary worship music that happened in the 90s. That was the period when the lyrics went from being mostly taken straight from scripture to being mostly made up by the songwriter. It's also interesting that the recordings of songs from major Christian conferences in the 1980s (at least in the UK), they are basically recording the congregation singing. But at the end of the 80s/beginning of the 90s, they are basically recording the band, with the congregation being relegated to essentially a backing singer.
@stephengray1344 that's crazy that I've never put that fine a point on it. So many live recordings now are made to "sound perfect," instead of capture the sound of thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ singing to God. Man... how far we've fallen as a church.
I dont see the problem with listening to ccm because its a way to worship the lord.
I think there is a serious flaw that often pops up when discussing the concept of objective beauty. I agree on it in general there is objective beauty. But what we need to ask is: can we as humans fully grasp that objectivity. God can deem what is beautiful, but can we as humans understand the limit of a subjective experience of beauty and true pure beauty?
And regarding the origins of music: tons of classical pieces were ordered to be made by kings and societal elites that commites countless attrocities, maybe we should let the pieces that honor god speak for themselves.
Good video but i recommend you work on your arguments for why traditional music is objectively beautiful. You demonstrated why you believe objective truth, goodness, and beauty exist, but then you said "everyone knows modern art sucks" and "no one can listen to a bach corale and think its not beautiful" - these statements can't prove that traditional music/art falls into the category of objective beauty while modern art/music falls outside it
I used to attend a once was southern Baptist denomination that had it's issues at its core and spent a serious amount of time trying to please the small congregation in the worship department because the older peeps liked only hymns literally, but then there was the younger kids mid thirties and under who liked modern hymns/rock music then there was the third category of the long time worship member who was essentially his own worship team and preferred more modernish music but maybe more like 80s 90s and early Chris Tommlin and Don Moen? (Forgot how spell his name) styled music and the church board just let him do what he wanted to appease him and the mixed part of the congregation who liked the one man worship team. And then there was the pastor who liked music from the 70s because of how the lyrics were beautiful and captured what he felt was lost in Modern music, so he had us sing "give thanks with a grateful heart" every Thanks giving and "they will know we are Christians by out love, by our love" which sreamed "hippie" to me.
Some people felt more adamanly than others that the style of music the wanted was needed every sunday more than others. The compromise was each week they would cycle between modern, hymns, and one man worship team. (He did have people help with worship some weeks but it was mostly just him) and because some people felt more strongly than others it did cause people to change things up by attending other churches.
In short the lesson here is do not let what kind of music become a thorn in the side of everyone involved, because it can be a distraction and petty. I'm sure there is a good way to compromise, like maybe sing more modern hyms, sing more a capella, and hymns mainly because most people already know how to sing most hymns, mainly because the tunes are repeatative, and for me personally I find that to be the most helpful when learing a new song. Or maybe like some small bible churches do, like one ive been to, and find music that is God centered because how well you actually worship on stage doesn't matter as mush as the inward intent to sing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in your hearts" a quote from colossians
Which was used as an explanation to encourage the small congration to practice and do their best because all they have usually is acoustic guitar players, a piano, and singers usually. They did have a nice blend of hymns and modern music as long as it was christ centered and theologically sound because becoming more high church to some degree for many people runs the risk of including unnecessary fluff in to the hearts and minds of the church goers at that church, who have to remain bible centered because they are the only church around and don't want people to feel like that have to conform to a specific denomination. They have more visitors in the summer time and feel as if not picking what may seem to them as a box is more inclusive because they don't know every summer who the new people from any given place will be.
I now attend a Non denomination church and the alluring thing about that is that it is the most appealing for people who don't know what they are looking for in a more traditional church yet and because they can be less intimidated by a low church. They do have good sermons and it can feel like a conference with music, mostly Shane and Shane and sometimes a hymn (or they do thing where they ding a few verses from a hymn in the middle of the contemporary song ) and then a little Tasha Lenard Cobss. But maybe the congregation and are people who are not ready to or know really if they should go to a higher church so to speak.
I find the issue of dressing for church to be potentially vain, because for many people where I am, dressing up is sometimes looking semi formal down to neat but casual, but feel free to go the full nine yards "if you feel led" (something saud that is potentially thrown around to much) mostly because lower churches don't want to pressure people into thinking that the outer appearance is a main focus out of respect for the people who can only afford what they already have at the present. Also because people have the personal conviction of "man sees the outward appearance and God sees the heart" a reference from the book of Samuel when Samuel is looking for a King, and that example I've heard many times.
I do remember a verse about how true worshipers worship in spirit, but that is not a an excuse to be casual. Though the churches I've attended are low church, they do preach to show they reverence, respect, and fear towards God and Christ because they have ultimately have authority and thus its not always "Jesus is yo bestie" and not always "Jesus is God,King, and High Priest forever in the oder of Melchizedek and you know nothing about how to be on the bottom of the food chain so say nothing unless spoken to" It was more both, but with respect. Ex "I am your friend but also your commander in chief" ("so don't bother voting because Alaska only gets two electorial votes" "and " But our citizenship is in heaven and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.")
That's my experience with church music and clothing. Obviously come as you are, but also you are still invited to the wedding feast so dress appropriately, lest you be "tossed outside, into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" so dress literally with the behavior of a humble and contrite heart bearing all fruits of the spirit because those are your wedding cloths just as must as wearing the literall cotton,denim,linen,polyester is clothing.
czcams.com/users/liveJBGbIjX3jX4?si=fPUyk5LVt2qMFapt
This is Victory Boyd, who sings literally and reads anything from the Bible Gospel style, in true American fashion, and then Also sang a hymn, but with a modern tune, a good example of a compromise, while still singing with the obvious intent to be some one who "must worship in spirit and in truth"
Not to say I will see a Heavy Metal worship service or the whole Beautiful Eulogy rap album sung in a non denomination church anytime soon, because I won't. But they still try to sing music that most people will know like new worshipers in the faith. Should they do better and make it a more formal for the wedding? Yes, but some low churches do already, though not to everyone's perspective.
czcams.com/video/YGgymPGviGE/video.htmlsi=yE1UyHt8XixkZKn4
Also this is a good explanation as to why it is wise to be selective to a reasonable degree about what you sing about.
As a 20 year old who has spent the last 6 years of my life serving my church and my college through leading contemporary music, I really do appreciate the push back. It is helpful to understand the reasons why there are pushback. I don’t agree with everything presented in this argument but I think that it points to a lot of truths. I agree that all truth, goodness, and beauty comes from God and therefore objective. I also understand that there is a lot of bad contemporary Christian music. From what I understand though, worship music is meant to glorify God. That is what makes it beautiful. There are multiple ways to glorify God through worship music: 1. The words that are spoken should be truths about God and his relationship to his people. 2. The music should be beautiful (if it sounds bad, don’t use it😂) 3. The people leading worship are offering up their years of practicing and training as “insufficient gifts to feed a crowd” (from the liturgy book, Every Moment Holy). 4) The congregation is joining a whole body of believers from all generations and all cultures in worshiping God. Based off of these requirements, I don’t see any reason for contemporary Christian worship music to be less glorifying objectively. I don’t really see an argument in your video that shows why this music is less beautiful from a biblical perspective. I understand the historical argument against it (which I will wrestle with) but I don’t see a biblical warrant to throw out contemporary worship music for the sole reason that it is not in a traditional hymn style. I do agree that traditional hymns can be safer to use because they have stood the test of time (therefore making them better at my 1st and 4th aspect of beauty). This doesn’t mean that contemporary worship music always has bad theology or bad music. For example, I think Shane and Shane have done an amazing job taking psalms and traditional hymns and making them beautiful through arrangement for a band. I also think that CityALight has been writing songs that are lyrically beautiful and musically beautiful. I’d love to hear what you have to think abt this! I really do appreciate the pushback and you have gotten me to think very hard about this subject!
So beauty is objective... but, also, our experience of beauty is subjective...
So, how do you bridge the gap between your subjective experience of beauty and objective beauty that isn't appealing to your subjective experience?
The number one issue I have with contemporary music is how it has terrible theological value, half the songs fall under the category of which I call "self-help gospel" the lyrics in this section basically boil down to: "you're perfect the way you are, you don't have to change anything, God loves you the way you are." which is just simply wrong. The other half is just completely meaningless. It's fluff, air, pop music with a Jesus sticker slapped on. These songs have no value or substance, they do not instill any lessons or greater understanding of scripture, Christ's lessons or God's plan upon the listener, it's just: "hey, God exits and he's pretty cool" and that's it, and while it's not wrong, I didn't need a mediocre poprock song to tell me that.
I go to a newer church (about 10-15 years old) in a big city. We aren’t affiliated with any denomination, but our theology is between Baptist and Reformed. We have a small worship team that often varies by week, and we play/sing a combination of traditional songs and more contemporary songs like by the Gettys. The church doesn’t feel anything like a concert, instead focusing on congregation singing. I really like what we do and see it as integrating the best of contemporary music in a more reverent style with the songs that have been around for hundreds of years. On the other hand, my grandmother goes to a contemporary Baptist church in a medium sized town in-state. She absolutely loves the contemporary music played there. I went with a friend to a Phil Wickham concert at my friend’s church (of course, a concert is a whole different thing). I think there is a lot of value in contemporary music, but the way it’s done in many churches is less reverent than it should be.
P.S. I’m a pianist (among other things), so I’m at least somewhat familiar with what you talked about. Fun fact: chorales are often arranged for concert bands for warm ups and exercises (I’ve never seen a Bach chorale which would probably be harder, but one I see a lot is It Is Well). I mostly agree with what you said about modern music: atonal music and series are weird. I do like music that uses a lot of chromaticism well (like Rachmaninoff and Chopin) and even more unconventional, semi-atonal music (like Prokofiev and Bartok can be), but taking atonality as far as Schoenberg and Berg did is just weird and stops having any positive emotional effect imo.
very well put - Question: where would you draw a line between what is and is not considered worship?
Bach is an incredible artist. On his death bed he left this world believing that he his art failed to reach its appropriate standard and that he failed God in this regard. And this is coming from one of the greatest composers of all time.
Imagine if contemporary Christian artists had this same vision and integrity to their art. The church would be a different place.
They will never write a better worship song than amazing grace
As a Christian who is also a musician its very odd to hear people fundamentally misunderstand what music is. Its also very alienating. What's the actual objective with music in worship? I understand if your congregation can't support types of music due to size or venue constraints, but there is a very physical element to all music that is inspired from emotion. The reason a 5th sounds nice to you is due to a literal mathematic relationship between the frequencies. The reason 120BPM feels fast or better yet *feels slow* is all a consequence of literal phenomena. Its all music theory! Dissonance, timbre, and repetition are just characteristics of music, and its all just seemingly lost on the lay person. Fundamentally strawmanned by people who, don't just fail to understand it, but fail to *care to* understand it. Reminds me of people who play off science as being some creation of atheisism. You don't represent Christians well when you say things like this; its founded in ignorance. Our god is not mundane or incapable of understanding a deeper meaning of our music. Focus on the content not the characteristics. There is hard science and math behind why music sounds the way it does. To say there is that level of objectivity in beauty (specifically in art?) will make me demand you answer what constitutes an objectively good fraction or frequency? At what point does the dissonance between several instruments become too much and how can we measure it?
I think it goes without saying but none of this is particularly aimed at someone just an observation that I have made.
As a french protestant, i'm surround by catholics, and it's hard to find a protestant church with good music.... That really hurt me, 'cause i'm musician too
How about.. you participate in the making of the music?
@@juliusalbe2070 I did ! But i'm forced to deal with the other, and they don't want to hear about more traditional music
Respectfully, this is the one of the most absurd, pretentious takes I have ever heard. If the music is designed to praise God then it doesn’t matter what it sounds like (genre-wise)
He is a New Yorker so let's cut him some slack lol
Orthodox byzantine music is special ❤
I agree with Zoomer's views on objective beauty just not the particular argument he is making on how we ought to apply it when it comes to worship music. I do agree with the sense of dissatisfaction that underlies his argument when it comes to contemporary music in that there is much to be critical of how people have used it even up until this day and age. It is honestly discouraging to see all the mistakes contemporary artists have made when writing these songs that many still use even in spite of its at times obvious flaws.
However, we serve a God who is greater than us and yet still merciful. He ain't gonna strike us dead because we were striking the drums a little too vigorously. Lol 🥁😂 I do think worship leaders need to be cautious about what songs they do allow and judge whether the songs we sing/play are setting ourselves apart enough from the culture that we often borrow from.
I do think churches may also need to offer different worship services to people who feel that contemporary music is just not for them, so they don't have to feel ashamed about what they sing/play during worship. Often i have been to churches where the traditionalist approach to worship takes place in the 1st service while contemporary is relegated to the 2nd service. This helps to mitigate causing each of our brothers/sisters in Christ who may stumble over what constitutes as true worship with each other. Multiple options is just better, imo. However, i do think no one should be judged if they want to worship at a church that only offers one mode and not the other. In the end, we are all under God's grace if we truly believe. And God's light will shine into our lives to correct any bad theology we may develop or already have at some point in our spiritual faith journeys. So just be nice to people. That is what worship is truly about, ultimately. 😇
What is happening with the pink sheep thing? Like I’m confused with the whole thing. It is a joke? it is commentary on evangelicals? Or it is all for real?
I grew up Orthodox & sang the same songs every week. They didn’t mean much after 15 years-just rote memorization. (Sadly) Moved to Vegas and found Jesus and worship music that is beautiful- I download current and/or contemporary songs that actually have very deep biblical meanings. Have you listened to “No Longer Slaves” or Tremble or Throne Room? Really deep. Also, “come as you are” is not what you wear- it’s how you are physically, mentally, spiritually- church is a hospital and we all are sinners who need Jesus to save us. Jesus looks at the heart, not the physical presence. CCV music from Phoenix has some great & spiritual songs.