As Paul Harrell would say, "The lube I use is the one I use based on my education, experience, different people have different experiences and that lends them to use different lubes and mine may not be one of them".
That statement is not necessarily true. The only thing I lube different is neck sizing vs. full length sizing. And some people don't even use lube neck sizing. I use a dry lube. I use spray lube for full length sizing which is home made of lanolin and alcohol. You don't need multiple lubes for sizing if you are using a good lube anyway. Some lube sucks like bees wax and is more prone to crease cases at the neck if too much lube is on neck or shoulder. Fact is you don't need lube on neck or shoulder. If one wipes it clean with their fingers before resizing you shouldn't crease a case.
When they said they "seasoned" the die with Imperial Sizing Die Wax, I had a vision of seasoning a cast iron pan with heat and oil. Great video as usual. To flatten the bottom of the MDT, an Arca rail might work.
"To flatten the bottom of MDT, an Arca rail might work"; to help a $600 chassis fit better, put a $200 rail to bolt on to it. Not poking at anyone, but for the prices on these chassis, they should provide a bag of misc shims, spacers, rails, ect to truly fit the shooter/shooting type. Edit: Looks like Arca has come down in price, between $80-220
Same for my 30-06. I cross referenced to Hodgedon and Barnes, and Sierra was towards the low of both. I called Hodgedon and they double checked Sierra, but the data now was similar to the others I saw. Turns out they went conservative in their 5th manual, but the 6th was right on. I'm guessing they didn't really test the loads in their previous manual. 😂
Another great video! Johnny, we found that R#26 loves hot primers, CCI 250 is at the top of our list and CCI 450 in SMall primer cases along with the Tula Mag small rifle. Thank you for making this fine video!
Ever consider making a hand held induction annealer? A few videos on her show how to make one for about $200 or less and an hour of work or less, with precision timing to 0.01 seconds. If a dumb grunt like me can do it, anyone can. I think you'd have fun with it, and it'd give you another annealer for an annealing methods comparison video 😋
Looking forward to seeing some Long range heavies. I’ve been following your channel now for quite a few years. Glad to see you got into 6.5 PRC. I just got one before the whole damn world went bananas. Ammo prices are finally coming back down a bit. But they’re still high enough to have me looking into getting setup to load for it. All the best and thanks for all you do!
Same here, haven't found anyone that went in depth from powder charge weight, to bullet weight, to seating depth, to crimp strength and showing us how that translates to speed and accuracy on paper and how the brass reacts. Now if only primers and powder becomes more readily available. Bought lyman aa8 turret and plan on just reloading everything instead of buying factory ammo with the exception of 22 ammo.
Unless you are a small volume shooter I strongly suggest getting a progressive press. I shoot high volume and can slam out 559 rounds an hour vs his 50 he probably does.
When you start looking at either higher velocities or heavier bullets, you might consider changing the bolt head to one of the Pacific Tool and Die bolt heads. That means that you have to redo the headspace on the gun, but the difference between the two is night and day. The PTD bolt heads are machined from billet, while after looking at the OEM Savage bolt heads, I'm pretty convinced that they are investment cast, with the absolute minimum of machining done to them. I don't know that for sure, but that's what they look like to me. But it should minimize the primer cratering. I'm a devotee of those 140 grain Hornady bullets, they are also what shoot best in my RPR. I bought a box of the new Berger 153.5 Hybrid Target bullets. I think they're too heavy for the Creedmoor, but they might be just what the doctor ordered for PRC.
Bought Hornady 6.5 Creedmore dies a year or two ago. The resizing die was full of grit. I assume from their manufacturing process. Maybe I could have fixed it but I sent it back. Came back very quickly in fairly good shape. I haven’t used it in some time but I think it still scratches the case slightly. The best die set I have came from Whidden Gun Works. They chambered my gun and their die reamer is coordinated with their chambering reamer. It is just right.
Those groups look typical of RL26. I love the powder! I use it for .270 and 6.5 CR and it adds an extra 100-300 fps so it's fantastic for hunting, but... it's not as accurate as other powders. I figure I sacrifice 1/4-1/2 inch in my groups by using it, but it can transform both calibers from deer calibers to elk calibers.
I haven't been reloading for long, so I feel bad even piping up here. I'm going to assume that "seasoned" means that the die is cleaned and lubed with the sizing wax. It sounds trivial, but in my experience, dies come coated in whatever residues are left over from their manufacture. If the cutting fluids used in-process are emulsified vegetable oil mixtures, then the coating left on the die would then be a thin lacquer of oxidized (polymerized) oil. I've played around with lots of "alternative" case lubes, and learned a few obvious-in-hindsight lessons. Vegetable oils (e.g. linseed oil, citronella) might seem like they'd work, but their dried residues will aggressively cause sticking. Swabbing the die out often won't remove anything, since the residue is a poorly-soluble solid lacquer. Lubing over it generally doesn't help much unless you use a heavy lube. It takes a significant effort to remove, just as it would take a lot of work to remove a linseed oil finish or baked-on cooking oils. Once I figured that out, I've paid extra attention to cleaning and re-lubing new dies. Just a thought.
I have Redding Type S full length dies from spring 2021. I also had serious problems with stuck cases. I also had the common issue where my sizing die wasn't sizing the brass enough. I used a dremel and polishing bit to clean up the inside of the die and I switched from Imperial Wax to the RCBS lube. To address the die not sizing my brass enough to fix in my Howa 1500's chamber, I had to machine approximately 0.020" off the bottom of the die. Now I set the die up to do a shoulder bump and it works pretty well. Before then, my die would go all the way down to the shell holder but still not size the brass enough to fit. The joys of a brand new cartridge.
Try a 3” wide front bag and a 3” X 6” steel plate attached to the hand guard with MLock screws. Yes, it’s heavy and bulky but it will steady the rifle for load development. I couldn’t see the rest’s feet but if they aren’t dug into the table, put the rest on some rubber feet or mat so it can’t move in recoil. Try fine-tuning elevation adjustment with the rear rest foot screw. Put a level on the scope. These are all benchrest techniques but you need to use them to eliminate some inconsistencies during load development. Love your videos and learn something every time.
I did notice that when checking your bullet after getting your measurement with your gauge you measured t the tip that is where the inconsistency was in the measurement bullets are seldom consistent in length. After getting that length measurement your consistency of the seater should be off of the comparator for the bullet somewhere near the ogive where the bullet should give you a more consistent measurement. That is near the point of contact with the riffling. I am sure it was just a slip we all make them from time to time. I do enjoy your videos. You do things a bit differently than I do but I learn a lot from watching them all the same. We all seem to do what works for us.
I use nosler brass on my 6.5prc and have similar issue with the brass not sizing consistently. Had 2 with a slight crack in the neck to when it was new.had better luck with Hornady brass.
Some barrels love/hate different bullets. I propose a short test of various bullet weights, some 90 varmageddons, 120 Sierras and Gold dots, whatever you have left in stock from the 6.5 Grendel just to see where the love is.
Very nice video Johnny! I have hopefully good video idea, that you might find interesting. I am a mainly 223 bolt gun hunter/shooter, and I've read many hours about the inherent lack of accuracy of any FMJBT bullets in general. I still use them at the range because of price, with not much accuracy. It would be great to compare for example common 223 55 or 62grain FMJs and closed base SP,HPBT bullets, using the same loads, COAL, etc. To show if really any closed base bullet is more accurate than the FMJ type. Many say that the cheapest Hornady Spire points are more accurate than FMJs at any given time and/or powder combo.
I've found measuring to ogive rather than overall length is more accurate. Those tips can be deformed a little, that's why your first measurement was long... Great vid. I'm looking at getting a 6.5prc so these are super informative...
The Mighty Armory dies are very smooth out of the box. Glad to see the Redding is working out I would think Redding would have a better looking die inside that Lee seems like you Lee has a smoother finish
I've been using Outers Choke & Gun Grease for sizing lube. I've never had much luck with spray on lubes or thin oil type lubes. I even used Lucas synthetic red & tacky bearing grease with good results because it has really no smell. But nothing beats the Outers, it is a pain to hand apply to each case but with tough sticking brass it works great!
I went to machining school awhile back. I bet the initial poor fit and finish with your die could've been due to their boring bar having a chipped carbide insert. But just barely chipped, so the insert looked and sounded normal enough, but the inside of the die was rough and too tight. Chipping an insert will get you every time, I swear lol
I know what you're talking about with finding the lands on a new rifle. I think it's from the free bore area where there is what I call ghost lands, where the chamber reamer left faint traces of the lands and groves when it was cut. And the bullet will sometimes pick these up and give you weird readings. And throat erosion gets rid of it after some firings. That's my theory.
I had a problem with Nosler brass with the 28 Nosler cartridge. I had purchased 200 Atlas brass, loaded 50 up and shot some excellent 3 shot groups all under moa and most under .25. Wanted more brass but only Nosler brass was in stock so I got that. Loaded them, fired some more 3 shot groups and they looked like I’d fired buckshot. Started checking and measured the neck thickness with a ball micrometer and found up to four thousandths difference in the neck wall thickness. QC seems to be nonexistent in Nosler brass. Turned the necks but at the same time Peterson brass became available so the Nosler brass was retired. Peterson brass shot just as well as the Atlas brass did. I won’t be buying any Nosler brass for any of my rifles.
I had the same trouble with that RCBS case lube in a brand new Wilson die. Had to send it off and had it repaired as it left the die with galled brass and deep gouges. I threw that RCBS lube in the trash and went to alcohol/lanolin and never had enouther problem.
Anchor brake does the job of reducing recoil with magnum calibers. I use one with my .338 Lapua Magnum and there’s a significant difference. Definitely louder but not loud like a naked muzzle.
Johnny, get a flex hone in 800 grit for each case diameter range (.223, 308, magnum) and they leave a perfect surface finish for sizing. They will leave a nice fine crosshatch that holds lube but doesn’t change the size of your dies.
Really enjoy your videos Johnny. I had a Bartlien sporter B barrel installed on vanguard s2 30-06 and dove right into reloading spent over 2k on equipment. When trying to measure bullet jump to the lands, using hornady 165gr sst, modified case and hornady o.a.l gauge I couldn't get consistent numbers know matter how many times I measured. When you said that new barrels can be difficult to get consistent numbers it really sheds light on the inconsistency in the measured numbers. Thanks for that.
I suspect in this case, seasoned means they applied lube and then heated the metal enough that the lube penetrated into the microstructure of the die metal. If you get your die a little warm, you should be able to see lubricant beading out of the metal, like sweat. This works with almost all metals, but the best example is anything that has been parkerized. If you coat a parkerized part with lubricant and heat it up, the porous parkerizing will absorb a great deal of lubricant, which will continue to sweat out of the metal every time it gets hot. Parkerized 1911s are a great example. The finish can be rendered essentially rust-proof for years by coating it with vasaline and heating it to about 180 degrees. The finish will continue to sweat out every time it gets hot for years, and until all of that lube is out, it's not going to rust. This is the same concept in play with Froglube, and the reason why they urge people using their products to completely decrease their guns before using Froglube. Froglube has a very small molecular structure and can penetrate metal very well...but it can't get in there unless the previous stuff is out. A bit of a marketing gimmick, because as long as you continue to use Froglube, it will slowly replace any other product that has infiltrated the metal...but they're not FOS. It works better with clean metal. If you don't clean it first....it just takes a little longer to season. Ballistol is also very very good at infiltrating metal, since it's just paraffin wax emulsified in mineral spirits. Once that gets into the metal, it's not unusual to see it sweating back out every time the firearm gets warm.
You may consider working on extreme spread with powder burn first then work on seating depth (tuning) at 5/1000's per change. You would need a larger sample to find the performance sweet spot.
After shooting a few different powders in the 6.5 prc and talking with others 57-58 grains seem to be the sweet spot. Data is all over the place, some I've went as much as 8 grains over. Can hit 3000 pretty easy with 147 eldm and h-1000 24" mauser m18. Hornady brass. seen some guys touching 3000 with the 156 and a 24" tube.
Thanks for the video, you are always fun to watch. An area you might want to test, or just some "food for thought" 14 min's into your video you used your trim tool. trim to length / debur / chamfer. That is a VLD chamfer tool and makes a nice ramp into the neck for seating. Does that angle not touch the bullet anymore? Is the depth of that angle the same on all brass done by hand? Is that as important as trimming to length? Just wondering bro :)
i think the discrepancy in the load manuals is from the altitude that the company's test labs are at . i have seen a lot of the same thing over the yrs . and just from where the company is at says it comes from the altitude they are located at . that is if they test at the main office . could also come from the lot number of the powder they used . i know how temp and altitude can make a load go way over max ! i worked up a true keith load for my old sw 29 44 mag . did it in the middle of a cold michigan winter . then moved to tennessee . and after a yr i got loading again . same load , same powder , same lot number of powder and same primers from the same brick of primers . loaded up 100 of them . shot the first 6 , recoil was more than i remembered ! and the group looked like a shotgun pattern . had to beat the cases out with a hammer and wooden dowl ! tried 6 more same thing ! ended up having to drop the load down 3.4 grins of powder ! it was a hot tennesse summer day i tested them temp in the low 90's . learned a lot on that hot summer day !
I feel your on a good track to keep the suppressors clean. I feel if they are "clean" they work better. It's like oil changes for a car. The car can run a long time on the same oil but if you take care of it, it will last longer. Any shotshell loading?
I’ve noticed the same data from Sierra , I really think they are covering themselves , the OAL adjustment you are doing is far less than Berger recommends they start at. .030 up to.120 jump with their bullets
Great video. I know it's been 6+ months, but I would venture to say that if you kept everything the same as you did in this video (rifle, brass, powder, projectile, front rest, etc), and seating depth of 2.930, and did a 6 shot group with your 55.5 charge, velocity of 2975, you'd have an outstanding group and low SD. Load for that 2975 velocity and post your results if you do it, please. Thanks John!
Im reloading a seekins precision havak bravo in 6.5 creedmoor. Ive tried a lee die, redding die and a lyman die and it seems like i have to use an excessive amount of force to resize my cases. Im using the imperial case lube and it seems no matter how much i put on the case it has seems to have that rough gritty feel when the case goes into the die. Im not loading anywhere near max charge on my rounds. Is there something different about the chamber of my rifle or have I had bad luck and gotten 3 bad dies? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
What about a good bipod, it would support the rotation better. I’ll make the switch this afternoon and shoot my handloads that I know shoot well and see if it changes my group size vs shooting off a front support like you. I’ll update you after.
The difference in loads in the manuals if the same projectile is used is due to their pressure test barrel everyone will be different just like every rifle is different do as you always do and watch fro pressure signs and you’ll be fine
XLR M-LOK™ Bench Rest Guide Plate Check this out for a front bag rider. I'm looking for an arca clamp to put on it so I can use the same bag rider on all my rifles.
Nice video. Nosler says their most accurate load is with Reloader 26. I do wonder though whether your accuracy would be better without a suppressor. I know people love shooting with them to cut the sound. But most experts say the group will grow a bit with a suppressor. I have a Savage Tactical 6.5 PRC, so I am watching your videos pretty closely on the 6.5 PRC. My barrel is far from broke in though. I only have 20 rounds through it. I will be looking for some Reloader 26 it's hard to find right now. I do have some Accurate Magpro on order because it was the only recommended powder available to purchase. I have been shooting some powder I have on hand with not such good results, but I am getting my cases fire formed. I plan on neck sizing fire formed cases unless it turns out that they don't eject very good after only a couple of firings.
I’ve got the savage tactical as well. It’s been shooting 0.5” groups with Norma match 143 gr. Haven’t started loading yet but I’ve got some ramshot LRT, BR2 primers and 147 gr eldm set aside. Good luck!
Consider yourself rebuked for jumping over nodes! 😜 Cool video. That last group showed the most promise at first. Do you think it was trying to double group on the cusp of two nodes? Thanks for the excellent content as always.
Have you checked your firing pin protrusion on your savage? All of my savages have came with about 20 thou too much protrusion. I was getting a lot of primer cratering too until I adjusted my firing pin.
u Put an arca rail on the front or use your 3d printer to make an mlok compatible flat adapter. I bought one for my RPR that attaches to an mlok adapter and has a 3" flat for a wide front rest.
I would suggest to work an ocw test to find a stable node in your velocity instead of picking a random charge just because its your target velocity. There is no way to know that its stable the way you did it and maybe that velocity is interfering with your barrel harmonics. To find a stable velocity node you would need to shoot at least a few rounds at each charge weight to get low es and sd. Your looking for a couple charge weights with very little velocity change that are adjacent to each other
Must be nice to even have Reloader 26 powder. I have been looking for it for 2.5 years with zero success. Same for H1000. Makes my 6.5 prc pretty much useless. Probably will sell it shortly because even factory ammo is difficult to find.
I think that that is Redding-speak for "you didn't use sufficient proper lube and then you didn't do a clean stuck-case extraction". I spent a lot of money on a full length die from them once and was disappointed by it. Nowhere near a's nicely polished as Forster's dies.
It sounds like the 6.5 prc is only rifle you need, even for long range hunting out to 300 yards? Its sound i could retire my 7 mag rifle if I had a 6.5 prc rifle. Please share your thoughts.
Hope you read this. Where are you? The last video i have from you is your retirement of the 6.5 creedmoor bolt gun. Have you retired, gone to runble or what. Really miss your content!
55.0 to 55.5 is somewhere near your accuracy node based on the group at 25:25. Your last three groups showed 'splittings'. They had two distinct groups separated by a split. When harmonics leave the node, They wobble and it causes this splitting effect. I've posted this on a bunch of your videos when I see it. It's a clear indication you have left your accuracy node and went too fast. I would go back and find the accuracy node and then play around with case OAL.
I dunno if anyone has covered the difference in load data. Sierra were so low due to using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers as does Barnes they are calling for a Rem 9 1/2 Magnum Primer. Nosler and Hornady both call for Large Rifle Primers. I just don’t think Magnum primers in the PRC is really necessary? The times I have tried them due to Sierra Data calling for them I have had heavy bolt lift after the shot.
Wonder why sierra is calling for magnums. I used several different sources to load for their140tgk because I didn’t want to buy their book for 1 bullet. I settled on cci br2 and h1000 and it shoot .300” @ 100yrds. Vo is 2970fps. I fail to see wasting magnum primers when I can’t find any anywhere.
I believe that the Gun does not fit you, one thing about vertical grips, is your hand will squeeze as the rifle recoils, that would be okay, however, the pressure that is used in your hand differs from shot to shot, (It is a natural reflex everyone has) So that will affect where the barrel is pointed as the bullet travels down the barrel and exits out the muzzle. the shots will be close, However, there will be a wider one or two that ruins a group. try a straight stock and see if that improves your groups. that would be the first thing I would do before doing anything else. Good project -Dave
That barrel is a dud. Wasting components really because it's just not liking to anything so far. Really suggest grabbing a pre-fit of high quality for that action. The chassis needs just a bit of attention to make sure nothing is torqued outside of MDT spec.
Quote from Johnny's Reloading Bench which we can all live by: "I use different lubes in different situations."
As Paul Harrell would say, "The lube I use is the one I use based on my education, experience, different people have different experiences and that lends them to use different lubes and mine may not be one of them".
That statement is not necessarily true. The only thing I lube different is neck sizing vs. full length sizing. And some people don't even use lube neck sizing. I use a dry lube. I use spray lube for full length sizing which is home made of lanolin and alcohol. You don't need multiple lubes for sizing if you are using a good lube anyway. Some lube sucks like bees wax and is more prone to crease cases at the neck if too much lube is on neck or shoulder. Fact is you don't need lube on neck or shoulder. If one wipes it clean with their fingers before resizing you shouldn't crease a case.
When they said they "seasoned" the die with Imperial Sizing Die Wax, I had a vision of seasoning a cast iron pan with heat and oil. Great video as usual. To flatten the bottom of the MDT, an Arca rail might work.
"To flatten the bottom of MDT, an Arca rail might work"; to help a $600 chassis fit better, put a $200 rail to bolt on to it. Not poking at anyone, but for the prices on these chassis, they should provide a bag of misc shims, spacers, rails, ect to truly fit the shooter/shooting type. Edit: Looks like Arca has come down in price, between $80-220
@@paulharveu526 10-15 inch Universal Arca Plate and T-Nuts on an M-Lok forend will have him flattened out up front for well under $50.
Sierra’s 6.5prc data was so conservative it was worthless. Data I’ve found consistent with pressure signs was the Hornady data.
Same for my 30-06. I cross referenced to Hodgedon and Barnes, and Sierra was towards the low of both.
I called Hodgedon and they double checked Sierra, but the data now was similar to the others I saw. Turns out they went conservative in their 5th manual, but the 6th was right on.
I'm guessing they didn't really test the loads in their previous manual. 😂
Really appreciate the videos man!
Another great video! Johnny, we found that R#26 loves hot primers, CCI 250 is at the top of our list and CCI 450 in SMall primer cases along with the Tula Mag small rifle. Thank you for making this fine video!
Keep it up pal. Love the content.
Ever consider making a hand held induction annealer? A few videos on her show how to make one for about $200 or less and an hour of work or less, with precision timing to 0.01 seconds. If a dumb grunt like me can do it, anyone can. I think you'd have fun with it, and it'd give you another annealer for an annealing methods comparison video 😋
His back , his aliveeeeee!!!!
Looking forward to seeing some Long range heavies. I’ve been following your channel now for quite a few years. Glad to see you got into 6.5 PRC. I just got one before the whole damn world went bananas. Ammo prices are finally coming back down a bit. But they’re still high enough to have me looking into getting setup to load for it. All the best and thanks for all you do!
I haven't even started reloading yet, but I absolutely love learning about the process and seeing the results you can achieve on the range.
Same here, haven't found anyone that went in depth from powder charge weight, to bullet weight, to seating depth, to crimp strength and showing us how that translates to speed and accuracy on paper and how the brass reacts. Now if only primers and powder becomes more readily available. Bought lyman aa8 turret and plan on just reloading everything instead of buying factory ammo with the exception of 22 ammo.
Johnny’s videos got me into reloading
Unless you are a small volume shooter I strongly suggest getting a progressive press. I shoot high volume and can slam out 559 rounds an hour vs his 50 he probably does.
Great stuff. Thank you Sir.
When you start looking at either higher velocities or heavier bullets, you might consider changing the bolt head to one of the Pacific Tool and Die bolt heads. That means that you have to redo the headspace on the gun, but the difference between the two is night and day. The PTD bolt heads are machined from billet, while after looking at the OEM Savage bolt heads, I'm pretty convinced that they are investment cast, with the absolute minimum of machining done to them. I don't know that for sure, but that's what they look like to me. But it should minimize the primer cratering.
I'm a devotee of those 140 grain Hornady bullets, they are also what shoot best in my RPR. I bought a box of the new Berger 153.5 Hybrid Target bullets. I think they're too heavy for the Creedmoor, but they might be just what the doctor ordered for PRC.
Glad you got it working!
Gotta say I've been very happy with Silencerco and Surefire suppressor warranty service myself.
Bought Hornady 6.5 Creedmore dies a year or two ago. The resizing die was full of grit. I assume from their manufacturing process. Maybe I could have fixed it but I sent it back. Came back very quickly in fairly good shape. I haven’t used it in some time but I think it still scratches the case slightly. The best die set I have came from Whidden Gun Works. They chambered my gun and their die reamer is coordinated with their chambering reamer. It is just right.
Those groups look typical of RL26. I love the powder! I use it for .270 and 6.5 CR and it adds an extra 100-300 fps so it's fantastic for hunting, but... it's not as accurate as other powders. I figure I sacrifice 1/4-1/2 inch in my groups by using it, but it can transform both calibers from deer calibers to elk calibers.
I haven't been reloading for long, so I feel bad even piping up here. I'm going to assume that "seasoned" means that the die is cleaned and lubed with the sizing wax. It sounds trivial, but in my experience, dies come coated in whatever residues are left over from their manufacture. If the cutting fluids used in-process are emulsified vegetable oil mixtures, then the coating left on the die would then be a thin lacquer of oxidized (polymerized) oil.
I've played around with lots of "alternative" case lubes, and learned a few obvious-in-hindsight lessons. Vegetable oils (e.g. linseed oil, citronella) might seem like they'd work, but their dried residues will aggressively cause sticking. Swabbing the die out often won't remove anything, since the residue is a poorly-soluble solid lacquer. Lubing over it generally doesn't help much unless you use a heavy lube. It takes a significant effort to remove, just as it would take a lot of work to remove a linseed oil finish or baked-on cooking oils. Once I figured that out, I've paid extra attention to cleaning and re-lubing new dies.
Just a thought.
I have Redding Type S full length dies from spring 2021. I also had serious problems with stuck cases. I also had the common issue where my sizing die wasn't sizing the brass enough. I used a dremel and polishing bit to clean up the inside of the die and I switched from Imperial Wax to the RCBS lube. To address the die not sizing my brass enough to fix in my Howa 1500's chamber, I had to machine approximately 0.020" off the bottom of the die. Now I set the die up to do a shoulder bump and it works pretty well. Before then, my die would go all the way down to the shell holder but still not size the brass enough to fit. The joys of a brand new cartridge.
Try a 3” wide front bag and a 3” X 6” steel plate attached to the hand guard with MLock screws. Yes, it’s heavy and bulky but it will steady the rifle for load development. I couldn’t see the rest’s feet but if they aren’t dug into the table, put the rest on some rubber feet or mat so it can’t move in recoil. Try fine-tuning elevation adjustment with the rear rest foot screw. Put a level on the scope. These are all benchrest techniques but you need to use them to eliminate some inconsistencies during load development. Love your videos and learn something every time.
Thank you for sharing your research
I did notice that when checking your bullet after getting your measurement with your gauge you measured t the tip that is where the inconsistency was in the measurement bullets are seldom consistent in length. After getting that length measurement your consistency of the seater should be off of the comparator for the bullet somewhere near the ogive where the bullet should give you a more consistent measurement. That is near the point of contact with the riffling. I am sure it was just a slip we all make them from time to time. I do enjoy your videos. You do things a bit differently than I do but I learn a lot from watching them all the same. We all seem to do what works for us.
I use nosler brass on my 6.5prc and have similar issue with the brass not sizing consistently. Had 2 with a slight crack in the neck to when it was new.had better luck with Hornady brass.
Some barrels love/hate different bullets. I propose a short test of various bullet weights, some 90 varmageddons, 120 Sierras and Gold dots, whatever you have left in stock from the 6.5 Grendel just to see where the love is.
Very nice video Johnny!
I have hopefully good video idea, that you might find interesting.
I am a mainly 223 bolt gun hunter/shooter, and I've read many hours about the inherent lack of accuracy of any FMJBT bullets in general. I still use them at the range because of price, with not much accuracy.
It would be great to compare for example common 223 55 or 62grain FMJs and closed base SP,HPBT bullets, using the same loads, COAL, etc. To show if really any closed base bullet is more accurate than the FMJ type. Many say that the cheapest Hornady Spire points are more accurate than FMJs at any given time and/or powder combo.
I've found measuring to ogive rather than overall length is more accurate. Those tips can be deformed a little, that's why your first measurement was long...
Great vid. I'm looking at getting a 6.5prc so these are super informative...
The Mighty Armory dies are very smooth out of the box. Glad to see the Redding is working out I would think Redding would have a better looking die inside that Lee seems like you Lee has a smoother finish
I've been using Outers Choke & Gun Grease for sizing lube. I've never had much luck with spray on lubes or thin oil type lubes. I even used Lucas synthetic red & tacky bearing grease with good results because it has really no smell. But nothing beats the Outers, it is a pain to hand apply to each case but with tough sticking brass it works great!
I went to machining school awhile back. I bet the initial poor fit and finish with your die could've been due to their boring bar having a chipped carbide insert. But just barely chipped, so the insert looked and sounded normal enough, but the inside of the die was rough and too tight. Chipping an insert will get you every time, I swear lol
Great content as always. A little disappointing in the groups but still so much more to try.
By the time he finds a load, the barrel will be worn out.
I know what you're talking about with finding the lands on a new rifle. I think it's from the free bore area where there is what I call ghost lands, where the chamber reamer left faint traces of the lands and groves when it was cut. And the bullet will sometimes pick these up and give you weird readings. And throat erosion gets rid of it after some firings. That's my theory.
I had a problem with Nosler brass with the 28 Nosler cartridge. I had purchased 200 Atlas brass, loaded 50 up and shot some excellent 3 shot groups all under moa and most under .25. Wanted more brass but only Nosler brass was in stock so I got that. Loaded them, fired some more 3 shot groups and they looked like I’d fired buckshot. Started checking and measured the neck thickness with a ball micrometer and found up to four thousandths difference in the neck wall thickness. QC seems to be nonexistent in Nosler brass. Turned the necks but at the same time Peterson brass became available so the Nosler brass was retired. Peterson brass shot just as well as the Atlas brass did. I won’t be buying any Nosler brass for any of my rifles.
I cannot wait to see more in this series… I just bought a 6.5 PRC yesterday and I want to get started reloading. That is assuming I can find brass…
you could get the MDT Arca rail which is nice and flat for the forend...
I had the same trouble with that RCBS case lube in a brand new Wilson die. Had to send it off and had it repaired as it left the die with galled brass and deep gouges. I threw that RCBS lube in the trash and went to alcohol/lanolin and never had enouther problem.
Anchor brake does the job of reducing recoil with magnum calibers. I use one with my .338 Lapua Magnum and there’s a significant difference. Definitely louder but not loud like a naked muzzle.
Johnny, get a flex hone in 800 grit for each case diameter range (.223, 308, magnum) and they leave a perfect surface finish for sizing. They will leave a nice fine crosshatch that holds lube but doesn’t change the size of your dies.
25:41 I mean you know your community well :^)
Good catch on those outlier Nosler pieces. That would piss me off if I had loaded them and they would not chamber.
Cool
Good deal
Really enjoy your videos Johnny. I had a Bartlien sporter B barrel installed on vanguard s2 30-06 and dove right into reloading spent over 2k on equipment. When trying to measure bullet jump to the lands, using hornady 165gr sst, modified case and hornady o.a.l gauge I couldn't get consistent numbers know matter how many times I measured. When you said that new barrels can be difficult to get consistent numbers it really sheds light on the inconsistency in the measured numbers. Thanks for that.
I suspect in this case, seasoned means they applied lube and then heated the metal enough that the lube penetrated into the microstructure of the die metal. If you get your die a little warm, you should be able to see lubricant beading out of the metal, like sweat.
This works with almost all metals, but the best example is anything that has been parkerized. If you coat a parkerized part with lubricant and heat it up, the porous parkerizing will absorb a great deal of lubricant, which will continue to sweat out of the metal every time it gets hot. Parkerized 1911s are a great example. The finish can be rendered essentially rust-proof for years by coating it with vasaline and heating it to about 180 degrees. The finish will continue to sweat out every time it gets hot for years, and until all of that lube is out, it's not going to rust.
This is the same concept in play with Froglube, and the reason why they urge people using their products to completely decrease their guns before using Froglube. Froglube has a very small molecular structure and can penetrate metal very well...but it can't get in there unless the previous stuff is out. A bit of a marketing gimmick, because as long as you continue to use Froglube, it will slowly replace any other product that has infiltrated the metal...but they're not FOS. It works better with clean metal. If you don't clean it first....it just takes a little longer to season.
Ballistol is also very very good at infiltrating metal, since it's just paraffin wax emulsified in mineral spirits. Once that gets into the metal, it's not unusual to see it sweating back out every time the firearm gets warm.
Good video, as always. Getting 2960 no pressure, 140 bergers out of my .260, 26" barrel. I see no reason to look at the prc.
You may consider working on extreme spread with powder burn first then work on seating depth (tuning) at 5/1000's per change. You would need a larger sample to find the performance sweet spot.
ARCA rail on the forend would make a good flat spot.
After shooting a few different powders in the 6.5 prc and talking with others 57-58 grains seem to be the sweet spot. Data is all over the place, some I've went as much as 8 grains over. Can hit 3000 pretty easy with 147 eldm and h-1000 24" mauser m18. Hornady brass.
seen some guys touching 3000 with the 156 and a 24" tube.
Thanks for the video, you are always fun to watch.
An area you might want to test, or just some "food for thought" 14 min's into your video you used your trim tool. trim to length / debur / chamfer.
That is a VLD chamfer tool and makes a nice ramp into the neck for seating. Does that angle not touch the bullet anymore? Is the depth of that angle the same on all brass done by hand? Is that as important as trimming to length? Just wondering bro :)
i think the discrepancy in the load manuals is from the altitude that the company's test labs are at . i have seen a lot of the same thing over the yrs . and just from where the company is at says it comes from the altitude they are located at . that is if they test at the main office . could also come from the lot number of the powder they used . i know how temp and altitude can make a load go way over max ! i worked up a true keith load for my old sw 29 44 mag . did it in the middle of a cold michigan winter . then moved to tennessee . and after a yr i got loading again . same load , same powder , same lot number of powder and same primers from the same brick of primers . loaded up 100 of them . shot the first 6 , recoil was more than i remembered ! and the group looked like a shotgun pattern . had to beat the cases out with a hammer and wooden dowl ! tried 6 more same thing ! ended up having to drop the load down 3.4 grins of powder ! it was a hot tennesse summer day i tested them temp in the low 90's . learned a lot on that hot summer day !
It would have been interesting if everything was done the same as when you got all the Stuck cases. Using the RCBS case lube.
👍👍🇺🇲 LET'S GO BRANDON
Do 7mm rem mag I want to learn more about belted resizing
I feel your on a good track to keep the suppressors clean. I feel if they are "clean" they work better. It's like oil changes for a car. The car can run a long time on the same oil but if you take care of it, it will last longer. Any shotshell loading?
I’ve noticed the same data from Sierra , I really think they are covering themselves , the OAL adjustment you are doing is far less than Berger recommends they start at.
.030 up to.120 jump with their bullets
Try a bag rider for he front end it will keep the front end of the rifle giving you a 3" wide flat front end.
Wow!
Great video. I know it's been 6+ months, but I would venture to say that if you kept everything the same as you did in this video (rifle, brass, powder, projectile, front rest, etc), and seating depth of 2.930, and did a 6 shot group with your 55.5 charge, velocity of 2975, you'd have an outstanding group and low SD. Load for that 2975 velocity and post your results if you do it, please. Thanks John!
"Seasoned" may be like with a cast iron pan (Lubed and heated) so the lube Sets and Surfaces the metal.
Dog Gone Good Bags. Gladstone OR
57.5 - 58.0 retumbo… DONT be afraid of seat it shorter, 2.830, 2.850, etc
Im reloading a seekins precision havak bravo in 6.5 creedmoor. Ive tried a lee die, redding die and a lyman die and it seems like i have to use an excessive amount of force to resize my cases. Im using the imperial case lube and it seems no matter how much i put on the case it has seems to have that rough gritty feel when the case goes into the die. Im not loading anywhere near max charge on my rounds. Is there something different about the chamber of my rifle or have I had bad luck and gotten 3 bad dies? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
What about a good bipod, it would support the rotation better. I’ll make the switch this afternoon and shoot my handloads that I know shoot well and see if it changes my group size vs shooting off a front support like you. I’ll update you after.
First Velocity was same as my 6.5x257 Robert’s AI… but the spicy end is out of reach. Mine shoots 142 SMK well.
It's hard to beat the PRC capabilities.... I'm over here recommending it for buddies doing hunting even though i know it is overkill...
The difference in loads in the manuals if the same projectile is used is due to their pressure test barrel everyone will be different just like every rifle is different do as you always do and watch fro pressure signs and you’ll be fine
XLR M-LOK™ Bench Rest Guide Plate
Check this out for a front bag rider. I'm looking for an arca clamp to put on it so I can use the same bag rider on all my rifles.
Nice video. Nosler says their most accurate load is with Reloader 26. I do wonder though whether your accuracy would be better without a suppressor. I know people love shooting with them to cut the sound. But most experts say the group will grow a bit with a suppressor. I have a Savage Tactical 6.5 PRC, so I am watching your videos pretty closely on the 6.5 PRC. My barrel is far from broke in though. I only have 20 rounds through it. I will be looking for some Reloader 26 it's hard to find right now. I do have some Accurate Magpro on order because it was the only recommended powder available to purchase. I have been shooting some powder I have on hand with not such good results, but I am getting my cases fire formed. I plan on neck sizing fire formed cases unless it turns out that they don't eject very good after only a couple of firings.
I’ve got the savage tactical as well. It’s been shooting 0.5” groups with Norma match 143 gr. Haven’t started loading yet but I’ve got some ramshot LRT, BR2 primers and 147 gr eldm set aside. Good luck!
have you tried going closer to the lands , technically , the further your bullet is traveling before it hits them - the more wonky it could get ?
You call it a sample sizing die wax, I call it pocket sized Kentucky lip balm
Consider yourself rebuked for jumping over nodes! 😜 Cool video. That last group showed the most promise at first. Do you think it was trying to double group on the cusp of two nodes? Thanks for the excellent content as always.
Have you checked your firing pin protrusion on your savage? All of my savages have came with about 20 thou too much protrusion. I was getting a lot of primer cratering too until I adjusted my firing pin.
use a eric corita tunning break will save u tons of times and get u to .5 on any gun load high for velocity then tune the barrel call it a day
u
Put an arca rail on the front or use your 3d printer to make an mlok compatible flat adapter. I bought one for my RPR that attaches to an mlok adapter and has a 3" flat for a wide front rest.
At 57gr there was slight ejection mark
Sierra 143 match always shot about .5 inch better for me than the Hornady 140 match in my 6.5 Creedmoor.
I have a Savage 110 and a 12F both crater the primers no matter what the load.
I would suggest to work an ocw test to find a stable node in your velocity instead of picking a random charge just because its your target velocity. There is no way to know that its stable the way you did it and maybe that velocity is interfering with your barrel harmonics. To find a stable velocity node you would need to shoot at least a few rounds at each charge weight to get low es and sd. Your looking for a couple charge weights with very little velocity change that are adjacent to each other
Have you considered adding external mlok weights?
ARCA rail would give you much wider profile for ur front bag
Must be nice to even have Reloader 26 powder. I have been looking for it for 2.5 years with zero success. Same for H1000. Makes my 6.5 prc pretty much useless. Probably will sell it shortly because even factory ammo is difficult to find.
Use the h1000 with the 143 grain and set it about 3 to 5k off the lans find the right node for best groop
I think that that is Redding-speak for "you didn't use sufficient proper lube and then you didn't do a clean stuck-case extraction". I spent a lot of money on a full length die from them once and was disappointed by it. Nowhere near a's nicely polished as Forster's dies.
It sounds like the 6.5 prc is only rifle you need, even for long range hunting out to 300 yards? Its sound i could retire my 7 mag rifle if I had a 6.5 prc rifle. Please share your thoughts.
Forgot… US869 works great too
Hey jrb . "Shannon ". Hope ur doing ok .
Looks like shot 1 always went right every time. Where rest tryed to group.
Hope you read this. Where are you? The last video i have from you is your retirement of the 6.5 creedmoor bolt gun. Have you retired, gone to runble or what. Really miss your content!
What r your thoughts on 6.5 prc vs 6.8 western
55.0 to 55.5 is somewhere near your accuracy node based on the group at 25:25. Your last three groups showed 'splittings'. They had two distinct groups separated by a split. When harmonics leave the node, They wobble and it causes this splitting effect. I've posted this on a bunch of your videos when I see it. It's a clear indication you have left your accuracy node and went too fast. I would go back and find the accuracy node and then play around with case OAL.
He used to use the same lube in all situations but it stared to give his wife a rash.
I dunno if anyone has covered the difference in load data. Sierra were so low due to using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers as does Barnes they are calling for a Rem 9 1/2 Magnum Primer. Nosler and Hornady both call for Large Rifle Primers. I just don’t think Magnum primers in the PRC is really necessary? The times I have tried them due to Sierra Data calling for them I have had heavy bolt lift after the shot.
Wonder why sierra is calling for magnums. I used several different sources to load for their140tgk because I didn’t want to buy their book for 1 bullet. I settled on cci br2 and h1000 and it shoot .300” @ 100yrds. Vo is 2970fps. I fail to see wasting magnum primers when I can’t find any anywhere.
Buy a Remington or Winchester Rifle that will tighten your groups
Put an ARCA Rail on the stock. 😉
I believe that the Gun does not fit you, one thing about vertical grips, is your hand will squeeze as the rifle recoils, that would be okay, however, the pressure that is used in your hand differs from shot to shot, (It is a natural reflex everyone has) So that will affect where the barrel is pointed as the bullet travels down the barrel and exits out the muzzle. the shots will be close, However, there will be a wider one or two that ruins a group. try a straight stock and see if that improves your groups. that would be the first thing I would do before doing anything else. Good project -Dave
Those seating depth increments seem pretty large. I think you might be jumping nodes ;)
That barrel is a dud. Wasting components really because it's just not liking to anything so far. Really suggest grabbing a pre-fit of high quality for that action. The chassis needs just a bit of attention to make sure nothing is torqued outside of MDT spec.
I would try 54,7 grains.
sooo why are you full length sizing and not just neck sizing? All the brass came from the same rifle correct?
Reloader 26 is impossible to find
Johnny are you revisiting 6.5prc at some point?
Berger 153.5 or 156 eol over N565
Fitting pin hole to large. I hag same problem with a 308
Get an ARCA RAIL for the front of that gun
Get an AMP annealer, you definitely shoot enough to justify it😉