What is Betrayal Blindness? With Dr. Jennifer Freyd | Season 2; Ep 18
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2023
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Legendary researcher Dr. Jennifer Freyd, who has dedicated her life to understanding betrayal, reveals what you need to know about abuse, lies, toxic behavior and how to tell if you have “betrayal blindness.”
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Guest Bio:
Jennifer J. Freyd, PhD, is a researcher, author, activist, and speaker. Freyd is the Founder and President of the Center for Institutional Courage, Professor Emerit of Psychology at the University of Oregon, and Adjunct Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences in the School of Medicine, Stanford University. Freyd is a widely published scholar known for her theories of betrayal trauma, institutional betrayal, institutional courage, and DARVO. Freyd is the author of the Harvard Press award-winning book Betrayal Trauma: The Logic of Forgetting Childhood Abuse. Her book Blind to Betrayal, co-authored with Pamela J. Birrell, was published in English with seven translations. Freyd has received numerous awards including being selected for the 2021 Christine Blasey Ford Woman of Courage Award by the Association for Women in Psychology.
Guest Information:
Website: www.jjfreyd.com/
Twitter: @jjfreydcourage
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.
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This video explains my childhood so well. I had to betray myself to survive my narcissistic family system.
😊😊😊
Same. Both of my parents are narcissist but my father was physically abusing and my mother „only“ emotionally.
Long story short I ignored my mothers betrayal and mental games to have at least some sort of safety. 😢
I used to believe my mom was sooo funny. Deadpan funny. I actually wanted to be a comedian because I was so inspired by how deadpan funny my mom was.
It wasn’t until after she passed and I started talking to people about how funny she was and NOT ONE person thought she was funny that I started to realize those mean, “funny” jokes weren’t jokes at all and just my mom being cruel.
In a way I appreciate my minds ability to protect me from the cruelty of my mother.
I’m sorry you grew up in a cruel environment. It’s so hard to look back and see how we had to heap on extra abuse to survive the abuse we got from others. ❤❤
You are not alone. I did the same thing.
I can identify with what you say. I am sorry you also had to experience this.
I'm a very strong and powerful person, but a long relationship with a narcissist can really knock you down and keep you there.
so true, I am sorry
Nothing can keep you there indefinitely but being knocked down is their goal ❤
@@user-db5oo8ee6s As long as I was with him it kept me there. I finally got the courage and intelligence to walk away. My life is better now.
Canl
Betrayal blindness is also a surviving trauma response .
I loved the message at 26 minutes. So many of us beat ourselves up and see ourselves as damaged to explain why we stayed, but I love this positive message that it is the best thing about a human that makes us stay. The ability and desire to love.
Omg I love this comment so much! 🤍🪶
💛💛💛
Yes me too -- that gave me a different and healthier perspective. I love someone. They can use that against me. It doesn't mean loving was wrong.
Yes, the one idea that helped me, a few months ago when I felt so betrayed, and ashamed of not having realised what was going on sooner, was the thought that I shouldn't regret having tried so hard and for sooo long to love my PARENTS, and make the relationship work with them, and essentially trying to help THEM grow up.
I got that after watching a previous episode of this podcast. It's so helpful to ALWAYS figure out how to see yourself as a valuable and normal person.
@@lalique2817if we are still under the spell of toxic people or toxic childhoods then we fall victim to loving the wrong people over and over again I'm a scapegoat and I had to learn I see the world through the lens of a scapegoat so I find myself in a scapegoat situation almost everywhere I go
I fall under intimate relationship betrayal and trauma. Betrayal blindness is something I need to delve deeper in. I will say though, some of the betrayal such as unfamiliar women on fb and the love hearts he gave them - I saw, I exclaimed my discontent and I expressed the inappropriateness of it in clear and certain terms. However, I learned in counseling right after discovery of infidelity when my whole world stopped moving (six years ago), is that I didn’t set boundaries nor demand any accountability for changed behavior. Thank God I don’t blame myself for that. You wanna know why not? Because if a man has to be told what is good and right when married to a woman for over 30 years, there was NOTHING I could have dreamed of doing on my own to right the ship.
Agree.
Beautifully said
Y t.5⁵⅘
Alot to think about,
Agree it takes two, let them go, I did
The family scapegoat would be an excellent example of this.
Definitely. But if I might add, the other sibblings also, most of the time.
I was a scapegoat to a lot of my family members. Yet I can also attest that turning around midlife, and realising one parent has been grooming you all along, only to get emotional support in return and maneuver you against other people... it does not feel good. Even if there have been a lot of gifts and praise to go with it (instead of agressivity for the scapegoat), you are not free and you are not your own person, and when you realise that, you're pretty disgusted with yourself and helpless for a while... time to go no contact and make amends where you can!
@@dansasap why does the scapegoat need to make amends?
@@dansasapyeah I was wondering what you mean by scapegoat making amends
@justathought274 A careful read of that comment changes it completely. I think that this comment is written from the POV of a sibling who is groomed and manipulated to "go along with" the sick script of the parent orchestrating this whole dynamic. I think that the person making the comment is who needs to seek forgiveness from the slighted sibling but that person was used as a tool in the family dynamics to affect the parent's plan... Does that make sense?
Yes, AMEN!!!
I called out my abusive ex- about something he'd done that I found a betrayal. He flipped it around on me and said that no one is perfect and that by bringing it up that I was being abusive to HIM. I remember thinking that was DARVO.
I'm so glad I left him.
Good girl glad you got away
Yay! Another escapee! Congratulations!
Opening subject to the many many who experienced without full comprehension but now delving deeply into this previously little acknowledged subject.
My mother has told me THOSE EXACT WORDS. My god
Self blame is also an attempt to take back a sense of control. ‘I can’t change them but I can change me’ so I go to crazy lengths to satisfy the demands in the hope that the pain will ease.
It’s only when you suddenly realise that no matter how hard you try they will still find something to hurt you, that you wake up and call it. And that takes years.
Especially for kids with a narcissistic mother, the idea of depending on someone who hates you is unbearable. So, in order to survive, children prefer believing is their fault, that way if they struggle to be better they will be ok. That's how children get anxious or maybe avoidant or disorganized attachment style that you have the tendency to repeat in the future unconsciously.
Wow, thank you so much for this comment. It helps me see something destructive I have been doing to myself, as in "I can't change them but I can change me." Trying to effect this kind of change (to please others) has tied me in knots my whole life. Of course, I have heard this information before, but suddenly it makes sense. In so many ways.
@@lalique2817 it was an aha moment for me too and the start of a new way of thinking about myself and the way I expect others to treat me.
Changing oneself, or the way one sees the world around one, and lets external events affect one or not, is at the root of so many religions and 'philosophies', including Epicurianism, Stoicism etc. I often try to show that a line should be drawn by saying: 'OK, you can choose not to let yourself be affected by the fact that your brother is beating you up and raping you... but he also does it to other kids at school... and when he grows into a powerful adult, he will do it to his own children if he has any, or to other people's children, and vulnerable children including orphans, refugees, kids in foster care... Should they all learn not to be affected by what happens to them... which gives him a free pass to carry on with his behaviour, which, by the way, falls under the remit of the Penal Code?'
Took me decades. It’s not lost on me now, I was actually right on target about my family clear back in my childhood. Aware nothing available there for me, so from early school age on I looked outside family for all my needs. Of course I was scapegoated for my “selfish” bad disloyal behavior. In early adulthood I felt I should try to be better and work on myself. I valued and wanted connections with people including family. So spent years reaching out attempting to create caring connections. I showed up and helped out, unconditionally supported, listened to, advocated for, organized events etc etc to no avail. They inevitably repeated devalue discard cycles which were so confusing and painful. I initially tried explaining myself trying to be understood. Little acknowledgement. I then walked on eggshells keeping quiet accepting breadcrumbs until I could no longer take the stonewalling, triangulation, smear campaigns, blame, isolation, criticism, stiff arm. They had taken what benefited them, while continuing to complain, ignore, compete with, try to dominate and treat me generally with disrespect. Any reaching out met with avoidance, disdain or suspicion for my efforts. Also snide attacks and accusations for my desire to engage. At times cold contempt🥶.
Why I believed these people would/could finally accept and welcome me, treating me in any way that would feel good given our family history, was surprising to me. I finally see the pattern which I had been so blind to. I physically felt the betrayals over and over. But assumed I bore at least partial responsibility for how I was treated. It’s painful to realize and to grieve what never was or ever will be in my family. I no longer engage. Not one single inquiry from anyone in my entire extended family. Normal abnormal behavior from these people. Past time to let them all go and move on 😢. Advice - don’t waste energy on people who cannot or will not receive you. We deserve better.
Beautiful. This is what happens when two high-quality, caring people come together. This was empowering, enlightening and hopeful.
Every Sunday, I get a latte at Starbucks and sit in a quiet place alone- to listen to the newest episode on your podcast. It's like going into my secret place to unlock the crazy confusion of my life. This particular episode with Dr. Freyd was one I will listen to again and again- so it really sinks in. It hit home.
This is a powerful validation against victim's shame and who looks at them as foolish.
When you are a child betrayal blindness may be the only way to cope in a neglectful home. Bad thing is, as an adult in neglectful relationships it continues. Thank you so much for talking about this! ❤
I read this book approximately seven years ago and it changed my life. My first betrayal was my mother who was physically and mentally ill and an alcoholic. She was emotionally and psychologically abusive and I never felt safe around her. The second was my father. He never lived with me due to a divorce but when I was approximately nine, he disappeared from my life for a decade. Being betrayed by both of my parents set the stage for me to attract friends, boyfriends and even a husband who betrayed me. But just last month, I had the courage to leave a corporate position due to the racism, classism and sexism I experienced. And I had the courage to tell them what I experienced before I left. I am so proud of the emotional healing I have experienced due to books like Blind to Betrayal and podcasts like this one. If anyone has experienced emotional abuse and you are on the fence about getting the book, get it! The two of you together are awesome. I would love to see additional podcasts from the two of you. May God continue to bless and keep the both of you.
BRAVO to you for speaking the truth about why you left your job! That took guts, and may help make things better for the next person. You are a hero! 👏👏👏
I hope your next chapter is full wealth, health, and much joy! 😀❤
Thank you for sharing this 🙏🏽
You need to work on your personal relationships and not use this, out of context, to bolster your leftist victim mentality.
@@terrannyberg4687 TROLLING NOTED and immediately filed in mental delete folder. Byeee!
The person you trust betrays you in many ways, sad but real
Yes. I got rid of many unhealthy relationships after I wondered "why I stay." 😊
OMG...only 11 minutes in so far and I can hardly beleive how many extremely useful verbal "untanglings" of very familiar patterns I'm hearing. "Thank you" doesn't even begin to express my gratitude for this one.
I spent 16 yrs BEGGING my mom to look at and address the betrayal blindness she was under. She couldn’t do it. She refused. It was too scary for her to look at, so she stayed. But the description and definition of coercive control fits what we went thru, I’m trying to understand and be compassionate for what she also went thru. I couldn’t be blind to it all, I refused, so i was “dangerous” to my stepfather’s agenda. So I became the target of his smear campaign. Even as a child I could see what was going on and that it was wrong and abuse. But my mom was frozen.
they literally CAN NOT even in 100 years, you must have boundary and DO YOU!
Mine was the opposite, I realised at 8 there was something wrong. My dad tried to protect me,but gave in when I was 14 and enabled her,my sister was brought up to not be close to me,I tried telling friends, but nobody wanted to help or believe me. Eventually teachers realised and tried to help in their own way without getting involved, they took me to one side and told me what to do to make it easier to cope with. I left home as soon as I could at 18,my dad's response was " thanks,I've gotta put up with it now!" I'm now 54 and 9 years no contact with any of them, my mum has tried consistently to make contact using alsorts of emotional reasons and I've stayed strong and refused. A school friend told me a few years back " we all knew what your mum was like". Thanks, coulda done with that 40 years ago! 3 separate doctors told me my mum shouldn't have been let out after she was sectioned. I now feel very strong for refusing to get drawn back in.
Thank you for the reminder that my decision to love and cherish people is a good thing even when it can be used to hurt me.
Something in our bodies HAS TO FEEL WRONG at the very moment when it is about to happen. Our bodies. Thats where our attention has to rush to immediately and its a must to trust that feeling.
When you've grown up told not to trust ourselves; we end up self gas lighting in the midst of narc abuse
“A narcissistic relationship is a relationship with somebody who’s personality organization is such that they cannot be in a healthy balanced equitable relationship and they are going to betray to get their needs met.”
I fall under the FAMILY BETRAYAL. I have LOST FRIENDS,PARENTS (passed), NO SIBLINGS, No Therapists I have been don’t seem to understand. I rarely see my ex anymore. I am in the healing class but need some assistance on getting in group. SO LONELY but know there is hope.
I'm in the same boat 🚢!
I'm in the same boat, too. 😢
@@sharonblumbergs7596 It is more complex than ppl realize unless they are in your shoes. I felt stuck. I’ve been divorced over 15 yrs but continued an off and on relationship. At times there was no where else to live.
have a boundary but there are safe people, even if it is just a library book club.
So true
“People are less likely to be swayed by DARVO when they know what it is”. Unless they are also a narcissist. My narcissistic sibling used this method against me all the time and my narcissistic mother would always believe him even when it was obvious he was lying because he was the golden child. Narcissists tend to stick together and they believe their victims actually deserve the abuse being inflicted upon them. Maybe that’s how they sleep well at night.
The kingdom of darkness does not war against itself. I too have experienced this and love your comment!
Me too and I have learned that my voice has no meaning
Betrayal blindness can be systemic with every last member in that persons life being told repeatedly to love and support the person who does the betraying,
When that person who the entire society around you told you to support and love, realizes that you are naturally the aware person, and the awareness is intolerable, they devalue and discard. The devalue and discard can turn violent as well as coercive through law enforecement.
Indeed, 💯👍. I did not know what narcissism was, until after going no contact, and delving deep into trying to figure out where I went wrong in the relationship.
It was so very traumatic, and I wanted to make sure I fixed whatever it was about ME, which caused the breakdown of this relationship, to hopefully, never repeat it again.
My mother-in-law is a malignant narcissist, and I spent 18 yrs of my life, doing everything that I could think of, to gain the love and respect from her, I had assumed would be a natural response from her, towards me, being her daughter-in-law.
In the end, realizing from the beginning, I was her target, and she never had the intention of welcoming me into the role of a loving mother/daughter-in-law relationship, only using me for gain whenever she needed something.
Acting nice only long enough to gain what she wanted, then resuming the pattern of abuse.
After a little while, I recognized the "routine", not as narcissistic abuse, but as abnormal behavior patterns of abuse, and when I confronted her at the "final showdown", being told, "I NEVER accepted you, from DAY ONE!!"
Day one being 18 yrs previous.
She knew I had her number, and she was having NONE of it. She had a complete breakdown, and thoroughly evicted us from her life, THANK GOD!!
But it came with great personal and financial torment, with her holding our belongings and money earned hostage, and her trying to file an aggregious, unfounded lawsuit against my husband, as well as claiming false income with the IRS.
All things to try to ruin us financially, but to no avail, since it was all BS to begin with...which pissed her off even more. 😂
We haven't looked back, since all this was settled.
Especially, after ALL I have learned about her particular personality disorders, hell would freeze over, before I would subject my family, again, to the horrors of HER.
Trauma Bonds and cognitive dissonance seem like they are also at play in betrayal blindness. When someone intermittently kind and then emotionally abuses you… your brain has to fill in the blanks. A manipulator is a master at being two things simultaneously… both good and bad behaviors.
I believe the majority of my childhood was betrayal trauma. I hardly remember any of it.
When I was 38 and I left my abusive Narc ex~ I moved back home to my parents and we had two of my friends come to visit. As we were all sitting around having cheese and crackers, my mom made a comment to me about me eating them and that I wasn't walking lately. (I had gained weight in the 14 year long abusive relationship for many reasons) and my two friends took notice of the comment and side-eyed one another. Later they asked me about my moms comment to me in front of them and I honestly had NO recollection of it at *all.*
This is what I believe happened in my childhood. I completely blocked out my moms criticism (she's very critical) and my dads rage and depression as well as his narc tendencies.
I wish I could remember what had happened.....I wish I could remember the memories....
I think you can with time and healing in a safe place with a good therapist that understands complex trauma (CPTSD). It happened for me but its not easy, its another phase of grief and emotions and I think our brains dont remember to protect ourselves until we are ready.🕊
Omg i so so so feel your pain. You are not alone. Now we have to get past it somehow
When we are safe and have the capacity to process, memories will come back, slowly.
Wish you the best in your healing. Do not stress so much on the memories, you will likely rmbr as your journey of healing continues. Be good & patient with yourself too. Best wishes
@@Jess-kn8vlit’s more like the brain shut it down to not remember, but else you’re right about what you’re saying
I also think that when you are emotionally betrayed by a spouse and you are silent about it (something that stays inside the marriage), it can feel like you are betraying yourself to let anyone else know about it. When it came out, my family demanded to know why I didn't tell them what was happening. To me, since my mother was a narcissist, if I said "yes, he betrayed me" it would be confirming what she had been telling me all along. Sure enough, out it came from her. "We didn't think you should get married to him in the first place -- he seemed kinda sketchy. But we didn't want to interfere in your life. It was your choice." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Its victim shaming and blaming. I have had similar. .we didnt object to you marrying him because you wouldnt have listened to us. The classic double bind.
If you parents thought your fiance was so sketchy, they should have mentioned that to you before you married him.
I’ve been in recovery forever from my own childhood trauma. I’m very aware of what all forms of abuse looks like but I will say this . I’ve talked to many where I know abuse exists in a person’s family other than mine and if I bring it up to them they have told me “I’ve never been abused in my family “. I also notice that these ppl are psychologically abusive to ppl like myself.
I am blown away by this extremely useful discussion. 28 yrs of being stuck with a narc. I have lost myself in this toxic relationship. Thank you so much.
I wish this information had been available years ago. I've been married almost 60 yrs.
You know , my marriage was one of 63 and ended with his death. I' m still confused , you believe it ? I am a surviver.
Big hugs for all three of you. I am now nine years out f a twenty five year narcissistic relationship and during this healing process the most shocking thing was discovering that I had stayed because of a repeated pattern of my relationship with my mother. I had been totally blind to my terror of her and my childhood abuse.
It’s a slow process of healing but, if you commit to it, it is constant with occasional huge moments of the joy of freedom. It’s a relearning and such a relief.
I find the white block on the base of the mic annoying. On a small screen (phone), whatever is on it can’t be read even when it’s enlarged. For a neurodivergent viewer it makes viewing your video difficult.
But how not to become bitter and pessimistic about people in general?
With therapy I got more and more aware of all the betrayal my narcissistic mother and physically abusing father did to me that I had noticed how many other of my relationships followed the same pattern. I kind of recreated what I was knowing from childhood. When I started realizing it the whole world seamed to be full of lies and denial or betrayal and me playing a role by not noticing it or addressing it. That was a rough period and I had to nourish and built relationships which feel honest and truly safe.
Not easy.
Thank you so much for your great content!
I recently ended a relationship with a covert narcissist. I noticed that it was easier to see his hostility in the way he treated others, but not so much myself. I became aware that when I felt unworthy, I became blind to his hostility and thought everything was my fault. Self Darvo! This discussion and research is really illuminating and reinforcing of my experience! No surprise I grew up with narcissistic parents.
The group can betray you as a a whole by "not saying anything. "
This episode was so very validating and healing. Its helpful to put a name to betrayal trauma. Thank you 🙏
I was with a covert narcissist for 28 years. We've now been separated for 2 years. He got caught in year 8 by the FBI with illegal porn. He went to prison for 7 years. I went to see him every Sunday on my only day off. I don't know why I stayed with him. I suffered verbal abuse from his mother. He wanted me to live there and watch over her. I endured that for 3 years. He never once stood up for me. I felt trapped. My friend offered me a place to stay when I got a great job offer 200 miles away. I have my own apartment now and friends are coming back and reconnecting. They couldn't stand to be around him even before he went away. I never felt safe telling my family about what happened. I was really isolated.
You've got a new start now
Praise God
Betrayal blindness is a new term for me. Self-delusion is powerful. I suspect it has evolutionary benefits for survival.
It explains why it took me so long to really _see_ what my parents had done and were doing to me before I went very low contact.
I have spaced out for years in order to survive the betrayal trauma. I just want the nightmare to end. I live with my narcissistic mother and narcissistic husband. I basically married a man with similar traits as my mother.
Yes you can jump from the frying pan into the fire
But don't do what I did jump from the fire into the furnace....
We need time to self heal before moving onto anymore intimate relationships and self-knowledge is part of the healing like these wonderful videos and Resources
Yes, I did too. The realisation when it came was shocking. I had been blind to my mother’s traits but it was my narcissistic husband’s behaviour on discard that shocked me into seeing my mother at last.
Oh my god, Dr Ramani, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw who your guest was! I first read about Dr Freyd as I was researching the so-called "false memory syndrome" and its backstory. Her work had significant impact on me, my perception on healing and my own experiences. Currently reading "Betrayal Trauma: The Logic of Forgetting Childhood Abuse", and will read "Blind to Betrayal" next. This interview is overflowing-rich in information and insights. The good you two are doing is incalculable. With all my heart, thank you.
Also, mention was made in the interview of links being included to two pdfs in the shownotes. I have not been able to find them. Will they be included? Again, thank you!
I’ve done a lot of research about “False Memory Syndrome” and Dr Freyd’s backstory and I respect and admire her so much.
As a victim of a narcissistic parent, I was so excited to see this interview.
“The person with that personality organization and motivated by power dominance control and their own insecurity plus the traits of lack of empathy entitlement.. is attempting to subjugate another person. That the other person is acting entirely in their service… that is inherently a betrayal. There’s an inherent betrayal in somebody who doesn’t treat you as an equal psychological player in a relationship.”
Predatory people who are seeking power and control will also be combative with people they deem to be easy prey and will claim the person is scared when they refuse to engage in the combative tennis match. “Only love can drive out hate.”
I had a distinctive whoosh and remained for a full year to collect evidence and strength for myself. I was able to walk away. There was a cost but not as high as I thought there would be.
Well done... that couldn't have been easy for you
Now you are building on your new life
Bless you
Thank you for this I have been betrayed my by whole family after trying to seek acceptance my whole life and putting up with mistreatment ..my regret has always been not walking away sooner the pain has caused so much damage .. but this makes me feel validated
Thank you very much to Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Jennifer Freyd for the explanation, which librated me from the finding the question WHY for my grandmother, my mother & myself. What had been haunting me was the fact that my Grandmother waited on her deadbed for days, wanting explanation from her abusive husband, who got 5 known wives after my grandma, whose rage was terrifying to his family every morning. Why didn't all of us see and leave? Yesterday, you answered for us. Thank you very much. I think many people appreciate your life - saving work as I do.
I guess because your grandma was trauma bonded and if you don't stand up or get away, you are enabling the abuser. Same with your mother and you and I think there is also a commitment to your loved ones (maybe subconscious) to not left them and help them.
That way, the learned helplessness is passed from one generation to another.
Besides, in all cultures in some degree women are supposed to cared and serve men unconditionally, otherwise you are not good. The idea of being femenine is tied with the idea of being weak, submissive and please people.
Sometimes I think that women depending on men for their survival might play a role for so many narcissistic mothers since they tried to married out of catching a good provider since their social status depended on men (their fathers first and then their husbands) and not out of love for the person.
The betrayal blindness was very strong for me
Thank you for pointing out that we are not masochistic!!!!!
Thank you so much for sharing this episode! You explained the first half of my life with my family and "friends" to a tee. I divorced my ex when I realized that I was putting up with an untenable situation of being betrayed repeatedly. I was stunned when I noticed how many of my friends exhibited that type of behavior as well. And imagine my grief and anger when I realized that my acceptance got its start by dealing with my family. Thank you for highlighting and explaining this experience in detail.
This! Friends were my chosen family, so when they turned out to be awful too, it felt like the whole world was untrustworthy. My covert narc ex-friend tried (successfully for a while) to make me feel *I* was flawed for cutting off so many people. In reality, I was just learning to do what my family had stolen from me growing up: set healthy boundaries and enforce them. Life is so much better now without all the users! 😃
@@bellaluce7088 congratulations and well done... it takes a lot to do that.
@@lynnemarylou7611 Your comment made me a little teary! All the gaslighting and shaming can be so hard to undo. I think you just helped me peel off another layer I didn't even know was still there. Thank you for your kindness. : - )❤
@@bellaluce7088 you're going to be ok... and you're moving in the right direction.
Sending you lots of love and hugs💕
@@lynnemarylou7611 And to you too.❤
I am comforted by the thought that I am capable of love while my narcissistic abusers are incapable of it. They are doomed to an internal life that is hollow.
This one hit soooo harrddd for me also; thank you for pointing out this nuanced behavior; so insidious and sneaky;
“Your love for others can be weaponized”
So we’ll said
I've lost my betrayal blinders in therapy. After the last betrayal I wish I still had them. Love is good. But there are only so many times something can be tried before accepting it isn't for you. Love included.
I experienced a deep, deep sense of betrayal when I was 15. My mother said, 'From now on he can do whatever he likes to you.' And he started clapping and cheering
❤
Eye opening and I feel better about healing. I didn't do anything wrong.
I have struggled for so long with a somewhat distant family relationship, stepping back from that relationship helps a lot, but the costs are high. This conversation helps me understand my behavior in the relationship, and it also makes me think more about the dynamic in relationships outside of the very intimate ones usually discussed on this show.
This is an extraordinary video. 2 great experts of this field explaining why narcissistic abuse victims huge pain and agony.
This is what "Love is blind" really mean.
A healthy response is to seek shelter from those you trust.
I love how you mentioned being fully empowered. It does take energy and risk. Scary.
Excellent podcast! I learned so much in just one hour. I really appreciate the “takeaway” segment at the end. Love is good! Indeed it is! 😀❤
My thoughts exactly!💜💯
Agreed. Dr R’s take away clarified it all for me.
I worry I did Darvo now, never have this happened to me. Was visiting with a friend, thought it went well (know her for 40 years) and always am careful with my words, if there was ever a concern, I would bring it up. Later she called me and stated I was basically attacking her, which blew my mind, how could she think this. Get this from what I said. There was so many times in past that she hurt me, blew me off and when I told her how I felt, never sorry. I mentioned this as a "really".
Thank you for such an important topic.
This is deeply personal topic to me as someone who was existentially betrayed (under threat) in a ‘situation’ that Matt Licata (PhD of Sounds True) described as a “cosmic betrayal.”
That description of “cosmic betrayal” indicates the sweeping scope of betrayal that went clearly beyond the two main organizations that I became the “holder of secrets” for but to the vast scope of the entire non-dual space (including currently acting teachers) who colluded with my former teachers in upholding the lies and gaslighting any description by myself of the betrayal.
And the DARVO dynamic: Deny, attack, reverse the victim and offenders…an ERA of DARVO is absolutely true.
“You’re harming me in your offending statements.”
This is EXACTLY what would happen when I *finally* got up the nerve to tell people they were/are lying *directly* to me (how *hard* is it to tell someone they’re lying to you??) regarding their knowledge of my former 'spiritual' teachers and of what occurred at their hands.
SUCH a destructive pattern. It takes gaslighting and absolutely punctuates it.
I very much look forward to reading your book Dr. Freyd.
Blessings and deep gratitude for this episode, for your work, Dr. Freyd on betrayal and how it ties in so deeply to narcissism and Dr. Ramani's ongoing stellar work.
-Leslie Read
Betrayal Blindness at the workplace hits hard!
Dr. Ramani, you ARE a media person in front of the camera. You have achieved that goal !! and your culture is beautiful and rich. Thank you for sharing about your own experiences.
This is so good. We’ve called it denial. But it’s also a way we put up with abuse, betrayal, lies etc….just to be included, involved, a part of….all valid needs. But, the cost eventually is damaging anyway.
the "whoosh" for me is was the feeling that the floor beneath me just fell out
Thanks Dr. Ramani. Every word you spoke today was fraught with meaning. And as for your wonderful guest, Dr. Jennifer Freed I am on my way to buy her enlightening book. Thank you for having her.
One of the best books I’ve read so far for understanding abuse, and I’ve read a lot of books, is WHEN LOVE HURTS by Jill Cory and Karen Davis. They break out abuse into categories and then have a list of traits associated with this category that you can select. This was shocking to see how many different ways the abuse I experienced manifested. It was painful but it encapsulated my abuse perfectly.
She didn't give it up her family of origin did and many of us endured the same from the family of origin.
The betrayal at the institutional level, I have witnessed the institutional level come up with all types of lies, encourage the dealing of recreational drugs within the facility, and were very welcoming of those who chose to space out on the job,
I have witnessed very severe matters of betrayal occur at the institutional level.
This has been life-changing. I think on some level we sense this even at an early age, but don’t have the words/skill/ability to cope. Shame was my middle name. My sister is finally, after 60 years with a narcissistic stepmother who is STILL at it, is beginning to see the reality of all this, but she is on a precariously narrow ledge and could possibly slip back into it. Please pray for me to support her in this. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
I wonder if this is related to forgetting or blocking out other bad things - even trivial things. My daughter will remind me of things that happened on vacation - minor things like bad weather or someone being unpleasant - and I will remember other things about the event, but not that. I also think that this blindness is taught through gaslighting, especially when children are told that bad things didn't happen or that they misinterpreted the event or that the person who hurt them "isn't that type of person" or "wouldn't do that" or asked "What did you do to make them do that?"
The "Whoosh!" That's a keeper! Wow. This is not only why we didn't see it but why we actually thought it was normal.
I have to ask myself, when did I "WHOOSH it!" What am I whooshing now? Wow, I might be over simplifying but I can use that now! I started in childhood.
The self blame is the result of the loss of self,and also because it is true .
You recognizing that you chose to stay, you choose to be the victim,is the only way out.
A radical deep absolute honesty with your self is the pivotal moment when you can start to climb back up from this hole you allowed your self to stay in.
After a 20 year in a relationship like this and the loose of my 3 children I can say that honesty is the best policy.
Dr. Ramani I love your new look and venue! I really am amazed by this interview with Dr. Freud. It is such an eye opener. My daughter has had a 24 yr marriage full of betrayal and narcissistic abuse. Drinking, drugs, adultery and she was blind the whole time even confronted with the facts. He left her two years ago and she is still so raw with hurt. Her constant forgiveness only caused contempt on his part. Her daughter, my granddaughter, has been so harmed but I think the fog is clearing for her. I hope I get the courage to send this to them . Not sure of the timing and dont want to hurt them.
The comment around 30 minutes about maintaining status quo as I psychologically erode. I finally eroded and walked away from my elderly parents. The straw that broke the camels back was my father verbally abusing my son. I could take the rage and lashing out...but I drew the line finally when he was pulling this abuse in my family.. One of the last things I told him was that he was not going to destroy my family like he destroyed his.
This is the best episode, and possibly Dr Ramani's best video that I've ever watched (and I've seen quite a few!). I could relate to every single thing. Thank you for your amazing work
I am a mature ,well informed, emotionally healthy man who experienced this within my marriage . I did not want to see or believe that my mate purposely ,malevolently chose to behave abusively and also chose infidelity . I was in complete shock and experienced a freeze .
You had mentioned a questionnaire and a handout about DARVO. I did not see it. Would appreciate a link. Many thanks for all you do. You have helped to give me the language to better understand what is underneath so many of the relationships that were not healthy.
I can’t find it either
My ex husband was great before we got married. There were some mild red flags, but I did not even know what a red flag was at the age of 19. However, once we were married, he became a different person, subtly.
I see the same pattern happening with his new wife. It has triggered some pretty intense anxiety in me.
I cannot come straight out and tell her what to watch for. I have to keep the relationship with him as calm as possible since I have to deal with him regularly about the care of our special needs daughter. I worry for his current wife.
I was married to him for 29 years. I constantly wonder how I failed to see it for what it was while I was married to him. I would ask people around me all the time if there was something wrong with me. My therapist believes he is a COVERT narcissist. I was, and still get, confused all the time with the chaos he throws my life into.
Thank you for your podcasts. I love the new format on you tube. It has been so enlightening. I am learning and recognizing the abuse in my story more and more. I have been studying this for 4 years since my divorce. I am surprised that I keep seeing more abusive behaviors that I missed ... dismissed as him just being a jerk, rigid, crabby. You name it, I had an excuse for his behavior.
I am an educated, intelligent, successful woman that couldn't see the truth. How does anyone get through this in tact. He broke me, but it took 29 years to do it.
You may ask why I stayed so long. There were a lot of lies I told myself. I used betrayal blindness. Most of all, my religion kept me trying. I wish someone had enlightened me earlier and given me a pep talk about eternal marriage that shouldn't be so eternal.
What I really pick up is a wonderful compassionate heart...
Now you need to guard it and take care of it
Stay close to God and let the Holy Spirit Guide you and comfort you.
The religious stuff was just churchianity
And people speaking christianese
You're going to be ok and you are going to be able to help others.
Sending you lots of love hugs and prayers
Thank you Dr. Ramani. This video was a deluge of validation for us survivors. Blessing to both of you leaders in this space. I'm so grateful for both of your work and for this channel.
This behaviour is learned helplessness. If a person keeps allowing others to hurt them, they are responsible for being victimised. People must see their original actual victimisation had nothing to do with their worth. Use your agency. Loving someone unhealthy is never right.
What an amazing collection of interviews you created on this channel, Dr Ramani. One more insightful than the other. These focused on a particular topic as well as the interviews of the individual perspective of survivors of trauma. So deeply moving and relatable. Thank you and everyone that shares a piece of their heart. The healing transpires in bits and waves to all of us depending on the angle we find ourselves intersecting with them. Thank you ❤
I just wish I had discovered betrayal blindness years ago! So thankful now!
I really liked her point that when someone in a family system can't use betrayal blindness, it puts them in extreme danger. I've seen and experienced this multiple times. The person who sees and tells the truth is relentlessly attacked, threatened, harmed, and eventually kicked out or abandoned. It can be life threatening. There are people and families who will kill to keep their false image intact.
My ex used to have an expression, "deny everything and countercharge". This seems to be like an short form of DARVO, and ironically in retrospect he was often the perpetrator of this tactic.
Betrayal blindness, this is so informative.❤
It was a survival skill my whole life.
Now I'm 68, facing this, very humbling.
I have been advised by a visiting nurse soon after my daughter was born (1976) not to speak to her in Hebrew because she will not do well at school as most Indian children are having problems communicating with the teachers.
Of course I have listened and my children missed out big time. Apparently this was not the only misguided advice I have received.
I’m sorry that happened. I think having a second language is an amazing talent/gift. Don’t be too hard on yourself though. Being a parent and doing a great job of raising children can also be your personal talent/achievement and I mean that sincerely.🇨🇦🌸
This is incredible. It helps me understand my dad staying with my mom. She is horrible, I married a richer, more charming more intellectual version of her. I want a relationship with my dad that is pure of heart but an enabler. Thank you. It will be tough but doable with this new mindset. I divorced my husband after 20 yrs. I almost lost myself. 4 yrs out and teenagers in the mix. Thank you Dr ramani for the support and information. It has been a profound help.
6:38
Confronting the betrayal can cut even deeper into the existing wounds. Narcissists will gaslight, lie and darvo. What I feel the most harmful mentally is: twisting reality or plain out lie about it. It takes away the ability to protect yourself. When I tried to "fix" my reality, short out truth and confront *myself* of what maybe was my "wishful thinking", I thought I maybe reading things into something that is not that significant, I just pushed myself deeper into the schism of facts and unattested reality.
I think to know facts that are important for your survival, for your decision making process to choose the right action is evolutionarily prioritized, and it has a very heavy toll neurologically when these processes are messed with. These are literally "can break your brain".
(Side note: in the movie Gaslight, the state of the woman)
Maybe it is a defense mechanism for some not to deal with something soo heavy that would break their "system how the world works and how some people are". Surviving by being overly naive in the opposite to breaking in the heaviness and pain reality.
I was ready to pay with pain for truth, but I got more pain and more mess.
1:00:03 changing expectations and building a safer, more loving world where abuse is not made permissable and where abusers can't hide behind excuses. Where the victims are not blamed, responsibility falls on the perpetrators and the systems that are enabling these actions are questioned: what a wonderful, wonderful new world ❣️ Where people can grow into their potential, where healthy boundaries regulate those who have problem regulating themselves.
1:03:08
1:08:46
I think between people who are not even related, don't even know each other very well and they only share one thing in common: being the member of humanity and the desire to be a decent human: betrayal can happen. Betrayal when we find excuses for abusers and deny the rights of the one who was/is suffering from actions that was/is not of her own making. Betrayal when we don't admit to fix our parts of that abuse and deny the reality what had happened, deny the information needed to process the truth, deny the right to one's own life. The person who disempower others because of interest and other gains are not the one who belongs to the group: decent human beings.
18:50
and a red flag about the character of the person
My ex-wife never really helped me when I asked her to. In retrospect, I realize now she expected me to bend over backwards for her. This is what I consider to be betrayal (there were other levels of betrayal, but this was what really stands out; the US vs. I thinking).
For example, in situations where I needed her to help me evaluate personalities before entering into business agreements, which had long-term repercussions, she consistently bowed out of using her personality assessment skills every time I asked for her help. She would also say she supported me, but only in situations where she agreed with what I wanted to do. If I suggested something that was contrary to her world view (selling t-shirts online, for instance), she would outright reject the idea of doing something differently because she didn't accept that it was a viable path towards a successful future in her mind. But then would turn around and manipulate me by saying she supported me despite the congruent attitude.
Thank you both for this truly helpful discussion of betrayal blindness. Illuminating, insightful, and very validating on many levels. ❤❤
I always overlooked my Overt Narc Dad as an enabling abuser to my more covert mother who was too difficult to bear. My dad was my "buddy" but I now remember him standing idly by and agreeing with her abuse. It was severe and I often repress things that are too difficult or ugly even to this day when I hear bad things. For instance I will have to re watch something if the subject was too difficult or the words hurt me to hear them said to someone else let's say , like the other day I saw someone call their wife some ugly name. Now I have a great husband so that did not resonate but hearing someone call another something just wrong well, I remember it was horrible and I filed it away. When retelling the horror I witnessed, I could not recall the exact word this husband said to his wife. Stuff like that. I file it away! I do not like that I do that as I would like to be able to recall on demand anything I want to. I'm working on it!
Yeah I understand I also shelve things as well
Don't worry all will be unlocked little by little in portions that we can deal with
However I do understand how frustrating it can be at times
I get loss of facial recognition at times
You’ve no idea how grateful I am for this video. I’m happy and smiling this morning now that I know that’s it’s okay to love and not shame myself for the betrayal I endured from a narcissistic relationship for 5 years. The sun is shining on me today. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I admire you both!
Betrayal blindness is a necessary coping strategy to tamper down the cognitive dissonance that arises when there is a fundamental gap between the perception that one is being abused, is not loved or safe, within a relationship that is actually operationally defined by being protective, loving and safe- to see this disparity requires either addressing the betrayal and receiving a response that confirms the shared values and commitments undergirding our understanding of reality or we must recognize that relationship and reality is not as we have perceived it. That sea change is enormously jarring and dangerously binding when you are actually dependent on that power disparity is not exploited.
Thank you for this interview I wish that you could do several more with her. I have so many questions. While none of this is new and experienced in my entire 45 years, putting language on it that I've heard you speak before but having clear definitions has been extremely helpful. It's something I'm going to have to sit with Andre listen to multiple times. Can't wait to read her book
This was the most in-depth, insightful, and self-building skill set for me. Two beautiful souls sharing their wisdom. Thank you.
It is so disturbing to recall my family experiences of trying over and over to be seen and heard by each of my family members. It was so destructive. Eventually, I stopped trying. It was empowering, but the deep pain of grief inevitably followed. This pain helped me understand why I had been in denial all my life.
Great talk, thank you!
My ex was abusive the entire relationship, dating and during marriage, but it started out with “minor” things, and I shrugged it off thinking I was making too big of a deal. As years went by, marriage, children, a house, he betrayed me with bigger things and STILL I talked myself into forgiving him and he’ll “change”. I was in my 20s the entire time we were together and toward age 30, I finally got the courage to say enough and left.
Best decision of my life.
Dr. Ramani, I’m a therapist. I presented to a couple what I observed as the behaviors of one partner who has manipulated, isolated, and neglected to share in the care of young children to an extent that the victim getting sicker every day both mentally and physically. The victim sees it, but views themselves as incapable of taking any action to save themselves. I’m afraid they won’t come back. I hope the seeds I planted will lead to them getting help to exit the situation, but I don’t think I will be able to intervene beyond this point. I’ve worked with the couple for several months. I would love to hear your thoughts. The couple really fits what this video is talking about.
When love and manipulation exist at the same time, it is the nature of human associative mind that love has to be manipulative.
Excellent interview. I think it would be so helpful to the world if Dr. Ramani and Dr Freyd would develop a group counseling program for therapist to head for victims of betrayal blindness and narcissistic abuse.
This helped me immensely. Ty, Dr. Freyd & Dr. Ramani ♡
Wow. This was fantastic! thank you