FN's Individual Weapon System in .264 LICC
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- čas přidán 11. 03. 2023
- At SHOT Show 2023 we got our first look at the Individual Weapon System, chambered in .264 Lightweight Intermediate Caliber Cartridge (LICC) - a round developed from .264 USA. Developed by FN America in response to a requirement from the Irregular Warfare Technology Support Directorate the new rifle looks to address many of the same questions as the US Army's Next Generation Squad Weapon programme.
I spoke to FN at SHOT Show and I've dug up the original IWS requirements so this video represents everything we know about the ISW at the moment. Sadly the rifle was behind glass at the show so we couldn't handle the weapon and the lighting wasn't ideal for filming but we got a decent look.
Be sure to check out our accompanying article for this video here -
armourersbench.com/2023/03/12...
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Hope you enjoy the video guys, it's an interesting development but it'll be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses it once it's been through testing. This is as deep a dive as I could do with the information available. Thanks for watching!
Accompanying article (with sources) here: armourersbench.com/2023/03/12/fns-individual-weapon-system-in-264-usa/ - Thanks, Matt
Nice to meet you today Matt, great video as always!
@@snailfarmer thank you, a pleasure to meet you and chat too!
Appreciate your coverage. This cartridge would be cool in an AR-15 receiver set with a larger mag well like the POF Revolution/Rogue, or Ruger SFAR.
Keep the receiver set small and clean, configure it out from there.
Looks like a 6.5 creedmore.
This looks like a far more logical answer for replacing the AR for the entirety of the military, instead of the 6.8x51. I wonder though, why didn't they chamber it in the 6mmARC since it has quite an impressive performance for up to 1000m. I guess future videos will reveal the 6.5x43 capabilities
The point of NGSW program wasn't to have 1000 meter range like a DMR. The point of the program was to give more barrier and armor defeating capabilities and address the difficenies of 5.56 which is it's pretty anemic range. Battle rifles are making a comeback because they have gotten pretty light relatively speaking. M7 is 12lbs fully loaded with a suppressor, 20 round magazine, LPVO, LAM, and a sling. Where as a traditional battle rifle with all of these features would weigh well north of 14-15 lbs.
6mm arc is too light for general purpose usage, that wanted something that would give better capabilities for general purpose as well as defeat body armor more effectively.
Why would you chamber is in 6mm arc, when if they want a 6.5mm .243 round you can chamber it in 6.5 x 38 which has been repeatedly proven to outperform 308 and battle rifles from an ar-15 platform plus has the advance of being lighter, less burdensome, and you can carry more of it.
even seeing the results of the 6.8x51 vs. the ar-16msized .277 Wolverine 6.8 round, it baffles me why the corrupt and un innovative, stagnated, mentally atrophied U.S. military wouldn’t go with the .277 6.8x39 rounds which could be used ina ngsw program or be used in backwards compatible ability with both ngsw and current ar-15 by placing the bullet within the appropriate cartridge for each system , and have the ability to use the 6.8x39 package in Al ar-15s with their current bolt and magazines at full capacity with a simple barrel change.
why create a new program for developing a whole new “medium sized” round and system around it?
but that would be too efficient for the u.s. military and not enough money could be spent and circulated around with their crony’s and the businesses they have stock or invested in.
@@Mithradates_of_Los_Angeles thats a lot of words to tell us you didn't read the requirements of the NGSW program. The whole point was to provide more range, controllable full auto fire, mount a suppressor, defeat Chinese and Russian level III+ ceramic armor, have and overall length no greater than 30 inches, fire a 140gr bullet at no less than 3,000fps and to share a common round with the Squad Automatic Weapon. 6.5 grendel is an excellent long range bench rest caliber for short action rifles however it's been trialed by numerous military and law enforcement agencies who all decided to opt for a .308 or 6.5 creedmoor rifle. Simply put reliable 6.5 grendel magazines don't exist and in AR-15 rifles you have the nasty habit of extractor failure and bolt breakage like the 7.62x39 AR's. 6.5 grendel doesn't meet any of the armies requirements. The simple reality is to get more range and more power you need a battle rifle caliber and battle rifles of today are a far cry from the old school battle rifles and are quite lightweight the SCAR-H and HK417 are good examples of this. Partially the reason the completely M7 rifle is so heavy isn't because of the rifle but because of the other systems attached to it like the suppressor, optic and PEQ box.
Everyone loves the idea of the 6.5lbs trim AR but it's effectively impossible to have all of the modern force multipliers on a rifle weighing less than 8.5lbs unloaded.
@@Mithradates_of_Los_Angelesit’s a complex military industrial complex
Thanks much for this. Excellent info. THIS is what the U.S. military needs: 6.5x43 with .473 case head with a 115gr hybrid ogive projectile in a 2.50" cartridge overall length. This is what the 6.5 Grendel and the 6mm ARC have been leading to, though they've been cleverly designed for the constraints of being able to double-stack within AR15 magazine dimensions. Make a magazine ever so slightly wider and .25" longer and we're off to the races with this new 6.5x43 cartridge.
Glad you found it interesting! Thanks for watching.
I think the reality of combat is that such a cartridge is still too heavy to chamber in an individual weapon. FN's "Lightweight" individual weapon is already 10 lbs fully outfitted. It may give outstanding performance, but that's better served in a machinegun. Imagine a M240B that's shorter and 30% lighter, carrying 30% more rounds, rather than an m4 that's 30% heavier and carrying 30% less rounds. Keeping the case head smaller does wonders for reducing the bolt thrust and size of the receiver, too.
@@theHSPCprojectit's still vastly superior to 5.56 in every way besides capacity and weight. It's a tradeoff that's worth it.
I really want to see this compared to a SIG MCX Spear.
Overall, I kinda like the look of it. Something refreshing from the AR-15 form and style.
the spear is actual trash. its objectively a bad gun. i have a video on it on my channel. the scar is a better rifle in every measurable way and even at that, the caliber choice just makes absolutely no sense in either gun. a soldier does not need to be nerfed on capacity by 33% and +5lbs for the same loadout.
@@maximusjoseppi5904 heard the barrels don't last very long at all on em.
This is the cartridge I think we should have used in the US. I prefer .264/6.5mm over 6.8 and using SIG's new bi-metal, high-pressure case tech (which this has) makes this "6.5 Grendel super" caliber even more useful because it can be used in a much smaller weapon system. I run a 6.5 Grendel as a mountain deer rifle here in the PNW US and its devastating on deer which means it would be even more deadly against 2-legged creatures espescially with the higher projectile velocities this round will generate. I love it. I hope the ammo comes to market some day.
This is similar in case design to SIGs, only that the entire case is steel. Still gets the same pressures, around 80k. Increase the velocity by 250-300 fps, so a 125 grain round should be going about 2700, had the 109 should be going 2850.
Yup. This makes much more sense than 6.8x51 or 7.62 NATO. Will be excellent in LMGs and DMRs.
The receiver set needs to be smaller though for the carbines and rifles.
@@LRRPFco52
I agree. Solves the weight issue, as well
15 grams a round vs 12 for 5.56 and 22 for 6.8
So you've only used a different 6.5 and have absolutely no experience with the 6.8 you're talking about. How exactly is your opinion on the ammo here valid in the slightest?
You don't get to prefer here since you've got experience with neither round you're talking about.
@@ProtesttheAntagonist
How do we not know much about it? It's been covered very thoroughly the past few years. It's a good battle rifle and GPMG round, and a bit so good carbine round.
If we mass issued the M7, you'd see a return of 9mm SMGs
I think this weapon could outperform the much hyped SIG MCX spear 6.8. I have always felt a bit doubtful about the SIG Spear 6.8 due to the fact that everyone who has fired and made a video about it, was using training ammo with lower pressure and that no one has actually fired the military ammo which has a much higher pressure.
Way too bulky might as well give everyone a SCAR Heavy
Alabama Arsenal has tested both ammunition types side by side.
Just lower the MCX spear to 6.5 grendel and it'll be more even.
@@off6848 everyone that's held it has said it feels far better than it looks
Just adopt AK101
this is pretty much the only video for this thing, or at least the most thorough video currently. I wish we could have seen more.
So do I! Hopefully in the future we might see more of it and even perhaps internals.
Bloody hell those cartridges look incredibly like .280 British.
Agreed 💯
@juint modern day flashback FAL tribute.
@juint long live the king long live uk
Might as well be. 280 british was literally the future and everyone saw it but America just wanted to strong arm everyone else and made us use 308
@@biddinge8898 revisiting the old Skool.
That muzzle brake looks interesting. Would be nice to see on the market as another offering (in various Caliber options) for OSS/Huxwrx suppressor owners.
Thanks for this detailed and well-sourced overview! I find FN's choice of gas system particularly interesting; hopefully they release details on the internals.
Thank you! Glad you found it interesting. I think we'll see more at future expos like SOFIC, DSEI & AUSA.
Would be interesting to see how close it is to FNC. Kind of sounds like it modernized.
the .264 USA round is a true intermediate cartridge as opposite to the .277 fury which is just a necked down .308 with all the bulkiness that comes with it.
the .264 has every of its dimensions set to be inbetween (case lenght, overall lenght, base diameter, neck diameter...etc). even the specific magazine has an inbetween sizing, weight and ammo capacity.
that should have been the way to go to merge ar15 and ar308 worlds into a do-it-all plateform.
This is just 6.5 Grendel but with a slightly longer cartridge case for higher velocites.
105-120gr 6.5mm bullet, 6.5x43mm cartridge dimensions. 2800(!)FPS 105gr OTM from 11.5" carbine specified velocities.
Do you think this means the US army is having second thoughts about the XM5? I actually hope so because this seems like a superior rifle & cartridge.
I'm not convinced by the XM7 (though I do like the XM250) but I would be really surprised if the US Army moved away from 6.8 at this point. They have put a lot of money and credibility into it now. Not to say its impossible but this is an interesting parallel effort, perhaps it'll see some less general adoption.
@@TheArmourersBench To be fair, the U.S. Army has had so many failed attempts at replacing 5.56x45mm weapons over the past 3-4 decades that another failure wouldn't mean much more money or credibility lost. Also, back at The Firearm Blog, Nathaniel F had a few dozen articles about all the intermediate calibers, old and new, and explained how, at least in his opinion, 5.56x45mm made much more sense than all the heavier calibers being proposed nowadays. A heavier caliber to "overmatch" the enemy only makes sense if there are the optics and the training to take advantage of that, and he made a pretty convincing argument that training was lacking.
IMO, the best approach is to first get better optics to raise the effective range. Then decide in the remaining weight budget if it's worth getting a heavier caliber. The Vortex XM157 fire control system is one hell of an optics/aiming laser/ballistics computer package, but it's still fairly heavy, so there isn't that much weight budget left for a standard assault rifle. For a DMR, sniper rifle or medium machine gun, the XM157 makes a lot of sense though.
@@TheArmourersBench I could honestly see it going either way. Like the commenter above already stated, The US Army has done an about face on the M4 & 5.56 more than once, so there’s definitely a precedent for at least one more cancelled project. By the same token, the US Army is also known for doubling down on a bad rifle design & cartridge i.e. the M14 & 7.62 x 51.
I wouldn’t be surprised if JSOC, or SOCOM as a whole, bucked Big Army & adopted the FN project instead.
I don't think I'd be too shocked by something like that either. We shall see!
From what i'm hearing the army is having doubts but that's not related to the new FN rifle.
Love the looks of everything about this rifle.
Been waiting for a video on this rifle since I first saw it.
Yes, not much out there on it is there. Thanks for watching!
Looks very interesting!
I have something exactly like this in bolt action. Has a 264 bullet tip and a short fat casing just like this guy.
I honestly believe that this is 6.5 cartridge is what what the 6.8 should have been. The rifle is also pretty interesting.
Honestly my only problem with it might be the the HK style of charging handle. If anything needs to be changed it’s likely that, make it more like the AR-15’s charging handle.
Also note that not only was this designed after FN was knocked out of the NGSW program but it also shares some clear DNA with the MRGG rifle that was meant for NGSW, meaning this was likely built upon that and is built as a successor to the SCAR. It has the same trigger as the MRGG and the same left handed mag release, as well as the same pistol grip. I’d wager to say a lot of the internals might look like or be exactly the same as the MRGG or the SCAR. Also it shares the same HUXWRX suppressor.
The cartridge in this system is not designed to do the same things the 6.8x51 will do when fully implemented. The M7 is more of a companion arm for the M250 than the M250 is the companion Squad Automatic to the main arm. Ultimately this is about the possibilities of potentially taking the 6.8x51 up to 100,000 Maximum PSI, loading it with a tungsten penetrator that is around 5.56 diameter or larger inside a lighter bullet jacket, and deploying the two firearms against a threat that collected intelligence gives reasonable expectation of enhanced ballistic protection.
In most circumstances (as long as collected intel back it up) the Infantry, Medic, Cav, and Combat Eng, that will actually have these two weapons will just be deployed with a General purpose round at 80,000psi, likely using a 6.8 sized M80A1/M855A1 style of projectile.
Thanks for reporting on this. Looking forward to it going into serial production.
Thanks for watching!
The cartridges look similar to the 6.5 Creedmoor with an aluminium case.
Good Recoil mitigation and accuracy is on everybody's wishlist at the moment.
😎
Very interesting, thank you like always!
Cheers
mate
Glad you enjoyed it mate, thanks!
@@TheArmourersBench As Always, Mom told me always try to learn from the best!
Have a nice week
I like the look of it. FN makes some cool mil contract guns
Cool video thanks.
Thank you! Thanks for watching.
This looks very promising.
Ooohhhhhh... pretty.
I'd take that over an M5 any day
So a true high pressure grendel.. I've said since day 1 of the M5 release that the steel case head technology should have went into the small frame ar.. This is a delightful example.
Well, this isn't really a small frame, mini action rifle, it exists in that liminal space between small frame and large frame weapons previously occupied by the .280 Brit and .264 USA.
@@ostiariusalpha 6.5 x 43 based on .264 USA. Its pretty much a spicy grendel. Appears as if the bigger mags are in order to use longer projectiles. Case taper looks a little straighter too based on limited angles here. Best of all worlds IMHO
I love my 6.5 Grendel. Always wondered what a little more capacity in a similar cartridge could do.
@@mattfleming86 The present 6.5mm LICC is to .264 USA, like 6.5 Creedmoor is to .260 Remington: a shorter case with a sharper shoulder angle, allowing for longer bullets. Comparing it to the Grendel (which is my own go-to AR-15 hunting round) is a bit odd, but I suppose you could call it a Grendel Magnum.
Since 6.5G is produced and used by Eastern countries I'd say they wanted to make sure the cartridges were not interchangeable 😉 Although the AR-15 has always been undersized to take full advantage of 6.5G, (bolt face, barrel extension, magazine well) so this makes sense, I just expected it over a decade ago similar to what LWRCI/Magpul did with the proprietary rifle/magazine setup based on the inferior 6.8SPC years ago... Oh well THIS is progress for an individual carbine, the 6.8 XM-5/M-7? Not so much... Maybe for a DMR and medium machine gun replacement at best.
Suppressor can be as thick as handguard or more when we are all using optics.
As a former Combat Engineer I would hate to lug this and it's ammo on a road March. The 5.56mm is ok better for most support service troops. The 6.8 would better for designated marksman or a machine gun round.
Given the XM7 is going to weigh over 13.5lbs I would agree. Thank for watch.
Combat Engineers, FOs, JTACs, RTOs, 1SGs, Drivers, AGs, ABs, Combat Medics, etc. all need a PDW chambered in a new compact, small caliber, high velocity cartridge that's smaller than 5.56 in length, with superior performance.
Take the 6x35mm PDW and juice it up into something like the MP7 or KAC PDW.
Whole point of ammo is to herd animals into arty fire. And cqb. And dmr. In that order. I think.
I'd like to see this on a 50 mag meltdown.
Wonder how it feeds and extracts compared to the 5.56 cart profile.
5.56 is good for 30 mags more or less on F/A w/ Medium and Govt barrel profile
@Dick Izzinya You wouldn't say that to a Nam Sapper from Hanoi.
Would like to see how this FN stacks up against the SIG M7 Spear.
77 gr OTM @ .650 b.c. @ 3900 fps.
Disposable barrels. Monolithic.
Quick detach.
77 gr FAP @ .650 b.c. @ 3900 fps.
Or heavier with .650 b.c. @ 3200.
Barrel Burn is not a big deal to me.
That ammunition is Fkn deadly lmao
very interesting
The SIG designed M7 and its 6.8x51 cartridge appears to be overkill for the average doggie. The M7 weighs in at over 8 lbs fully loaded and the 6.8X51 rated at 18 lbs free recoil. The "Fury" cartridge is the Remington 7-08 with a stainless steel base cap for higher pressures. The magazine will carry 20 rounds and each will weigh in at 1/2 pound more than a 30 round STANAG mag. I see FNs offering to be much more 'soldier friendly'; the rifle is lighter in weight, there 3 barrel lengths, it maintains the ambidextrous controls requirement on modern weapons. FN states that this rifle uses a long-stroke piston, akin to the FN CAL of the late 1970's and a three lug bolt head, like the SIG 540/550 series of rifles. The SIG offering is a Main Battle Rifle, probably most useful as a DMR; the FN IWS and the 6.5x43 LICC appears to be the individual soldiers' weapon. But the US ARMY will just keep using the M4 'til they rot out of our hands.
1:00 It was a 6.86mm round to be exact, so technically a 6.9mm round but for whatever reason they called it 6.8mm in their marketing.
They choose larger capacity cases and smaller bores which both need slower burning powders to work well and slower burning powders need long barrels to get the best efficiency. Seems like troops are using shorter barrels. larger diameter bullets will give a better bore area to case capacity ratio and be more efficient in shorter barrels. A 30 cal bullet in a 6.5x47 case is just as fast as a 308 when 16-20" barrels are used.
The .264 LICC, to the original requirements of the .264 USA that's 55.000 psi and, from a 16.7" barrel:
107 gr, 2875 fps, 2662J
123 gr, 2657 fps, 2614J
135 gr, 2527 fps, 2595J
added, from a 11.5" barrel:
108 gr, 2650 fps, 2284J
Those are about 200 Joule more than a 6.8 SPC and 600 Joule more than .300 blackout from the same barrel.
@@neutronalchemist3241 Sure they are, you're talking about a case with 42-45gr H2O capacity compared to one with a 36gr capacity and one of 19gr. I'm talking about efficiency as in J/gr of H2O capacity. I'm a wildcatter and been working with cases this size long before the AMU started designing the 264USA. Around 2012 I shortened a 6.5x47 .125" and necked it up to .277" to make the 270AR in an AR15. That was before Murray designed the 7mm UIAC, The AMU took Murrays design and changed it to the 264 and 277 USA based on the 7.62x45 Czech and later the Carcano cases. As soon as FN got involved they changed it to a 308 diameter case and it's very close to my 270AR but 6.5mm. In order to get optimum velocity they must use a slower burning powder to keep peak pressure down. Slower burning powders are not as efficient out of shorter barrels.
Looks like someone was listening when the US military asked for 6.8mm and no one could explain why not 6.5 even though it made way more sense
.26/.27CAL are devastating deer rounds. I'm not sure about in an auto.
I want!
i would like one with a 11.5 please. 7lbs is pretty heavy though
Could you do a video on the mrgg socom request that is in development/going on? Don’t see a lot of people talk about it.
Yes! I actually got better video of the MRGG! It wasn't behind glass. Thanks for watching.
@@TheArmourersBench interesting. Btw this was really informative. It’s probably the best video made about this weapon system.
Thank you!!
Canada could use this as a replacement to the C8
Alright Magpul....Give us our 6.5 Grendel magazines already!
Now that SIG trash got dumped, there might be room for a proper M4/M16 replacement to be developed.
I couldn't agree more!
This already looks way better than the new M7 in 6.8/
I want a XM-5/XM-7 in that Caliber.
6.5mm bullet with a long stroke gas piston and dedicated supressor sounds like a potentially very overgassed system. I'm really curious how this will end up, seems rather innovative even compared to XM7
with those oss cans the pressure increase is aroudn 5% or less, wont be enough to cause too much added wear
Flow through suppressor and adjustable gas
The US Should use three primary small arms platforms. The m7 m250 and a rifle like this. Less recoil then a 6.8x51 but easier to shoot and carry more ammo.
.264 LICC is that basically hot rodded 6.5 grendel?
No, they changed the diameter of the case so now it is 3mm shorter than a 6.5x47, same case diameter so it will work in AR10s and AR10 pmags.
Excellent and detailed information on a most advanced rifle system. Created for Canada and the US. Many European countries as well as asian will be interested.
Glad you found it informative! Thanks for watching
Hey r u sure that left side bolt release isn't the mag release? Seems if the LS bolt release was ambi, it would be l
put above the mage release on that side..
Great video as always! I reckon it's piston not DI? Also I'm very very curious about the ballistics. Seems a better fit than the sig fury, Seems to serve many of the same functions but seems much heavier, almost lmg style
I'm not sure, hopefully we will find out more about it and I'll get to take a further look at it in the future.
Yes, definitely a piston system. Thanks for watching!
@@TheArmourersBench the bolt release is by the trigger and completely ambidextrous as it’s duplicated on both sides. It looks a lot better than the current AR-15 style bolt release that requires two motions of putting in the magazine and hitting the bolt release to load the rifle, and instead you just put the magazine in and hit the bolt release with your thumb.
US Marines new rifles of NGSW-S
I wonder how it compairs to 6 5 Grendel and the 6 ARC
300fps faster
This makes more sence to me, if the US army really is looking to replace all it's M4s than the SIG XM5/XM7
Agreed.
Odd to settle on a 6.5 mm cartridge which at first glance looks a bit inferior ballistics wise compared to 6.8 mm new standard round.
Perhaps they considered 6.8 is a little too hot and harsh in terms of recoil for their purposes.
Then I'm actually curious why they made a new cartridge from scratch by apparently cutting down a .308 case and squeezing it down to .264 when the could have used the 6.5 Lapua specs. Steel case ammo isn't such an innovative idea. I'm actually surprised why in the West they didn't try making cases out of steel earlier. Soviet ammo had it for a long time.
Can someone answer me a question?
Is it possible to develop a new caliber that is roughly a little bigger than the 556 but capable of carrying 30 rounds in the magzine without significant weight increase, but being better for defeating armor, having better ballistics but being a gun that is good for CQB
In theory, yes. Take 5.56 as a base. Make the case a bit wider and slightly longer, increase the bullet diameter, and load it to a high pressure. Give the bullet a hardened steel or tungsten tip.
I doubt any intermediate cartridge could defeat level 4 armor, even with tungsten, but it could very likely defeat level 3 armor and decently tough cover. I honestly don't know why the military hasn't looked at a slim, more powerful intermediate cartridge and instead went to rifle and fatter intermediate cartridges.
@@ftfxhailstorm2916 I can understand the M7 as a dedicated DMR or jungle rifle, but for CQB and urban areas it boggles my mind.
How does this round stack up against the 6mm ARC in terms of ballistic performance?
This round is very similar to 6.5 grendel
This round has the same pressure as 6.8x51, so it's going much faster than conventional brass 6mm ARC and Grendel.
image at 1:18 looks mildly disturbing lol
the Grendel was always the right choice
Interesting. Did this system compete in the NGSW trials?
No, I believe FN submitted an iteration of the FN HAMR and a belt fed (either a Minimi or an Evolys). This seems to be more of a parallel development.
@@TheArmourersBench I have heard and read a bunch about reducing cartridge weight with a poly/metallic hybrid but stainless steel seams simpler without having another component to fail. Also IMO the location of the bolt release is fantastic. Although I personally would struggle to relearn its location. Thanks for sharing. im going to go check out your page.
@@scothayes9220 agree, it's a smart position for it. Interested to know what the rear lever is for. Thank you, lots of videos on absolutely all sorts!
@@TheArmourersBench The Evolys was what FN originally intended for NGSW from what i remember.
I'm a little confused. I thought sig won the contract for the NGSW, why is FN (and a few others from what I've seen) throwing their hat into the ring? Is this for special operations?
Separate, but similar, programme. Outlined who for in the video. Not regular Army though. Thanks for watching!
This is what the m5 program should have been.... This blows it away.
Could not agree more, it's disappointing how the army passed this up
The 6.8×51 is great for DMR's and LMG's but not for a basic infantry rifle. Honestly, I don't see it ever replacing 5.56×45. This looks promising but I'm not convinced it's enough of an improvement to make the switch worth it.
@@boomerisadog3899 apparently even just the steel core ammo from this can pierce level 4 body armor. If this has a decent range increase over .556 I’d say it’s probably better suited to the Army’s needs than the M7.
5.56 is basically a submachine gun caliber and I think a large scale war like Ukraine will prove that a return to battle rifles is needed
I remember a story of some marines in Afghanistan were pinned down by some insurgents with kar98ks they couldn’t get in range with m4 or the SAW they had on hand
@@off6848 except this isn’t a battle rifle, which makes it much better than either the XM7 and the M4. 5.56 is basically a beefed up .22, I mean that’s literally what it is. The .264 USA is extremely similar to .280 British, but it’s got better ballistics and it’s even more powerful than 7.62 NATO while being an intermediate cartridge. This is the round that the Brits originally conceived of but didn’t have the technology to make. It is the best of both worlds, it can reach out to 800 meters or greater like a battle rifle, but is best suited for typical combat distances of 150 meters to 500 meters which the .280 British was built for. It’s also a hell of a lot lighter than 7.62 NATO or 6.8x51mm. This round is better for the “general purpose round” that the British and Soviets were trying to find post WW2. Really I could see this program being selected instead of NGSW, that is if anyone other than FN are actually participating. It might’ve been hindered by COVID since it started in 2020 so it’s possible other contestants just haven’t fully developed their weapon systems but this FN rifle already looks extremely good. My only issue might be a lack of an AR-15 style charging handle compared to these more FAL styled ones but it looks like it might’ve been a compromise for allowing the rifle to be completely ambidextrous as looking from the images it looks like there is a dust cover that you can put on one side to change what side the case will exit. It’s kinda similar to what some bullpups do and it’s a simple but effective solution.
Finally they made a 6.5 in an intermediate sized platform that will work as it should. It should be at least 200fps faster than the Grendel. "Grendel killer" But shortening a 6.5x47 by 3mm doesn't make much sense, they should have just chambered it in 6.5x47.
I think the rounds would be better if the case was longer but thinner to fit more in a mag without making it too long, but even still this seems very interesting. Much better than the XM7.
Also, a version with a quad rail would be cool, just because.
i wonder wouldn't it make more sense to just get uppers for m4s and m16s in a more modern cartridge seems like a cheaper option
I guess you missed the part about the magazine needing to be a 1/4" longer with the .264 Licc. it won't fit in the m4 magwell. yeah 6arc is a good cartridge that fits.
@@jjmckay6man1 im not talking about 264 specifically, what i mean is something like 6.8 spc perhaps, or maybe a new design but something that would fit the standard ar dimension
Why would the u.s. need fn to develop this when we already have the Rob arm xcr which we already have access to that is tried and proven and more importantly far more reliable and prove ly module and adaptable to various different caliber adaptations with a proven quick change barrel system in a battle rifle and carbine that actually works and is suported(unlike the acr).
2. It has been proven rounds like the 6.5x38 grendel can and do outperform the 308 in both speed and power, so this notion that we need to upscale our service rifle/carbine and need bigger bullets and guns because that means our stuff is greater than our peer,near peer forcesis ridiculous. One of the most import. Aspects of a service rifle is size weight and menueverability, and the weight and load bearing if the ammo your carrying. Moving to a .30 ar-15 sized round that lighter and interchange with current systems makes a whole lot more sense than upscaling completely to battlemrifle ammo that is heavier, more burdening, and you can use and carry less of.
it’s not next generational, but going backwards and the U.S. military and department of defense project is going to go the way of the M-14 and be a complete failure.
the nepotism and cronyism and corruption/insider trading of the dod and U.S. military is just too extreme, and undeserving and unworthy, unninnovative corporations are getting these contracts because of back room dealing. The fact the general dynamics didn’t get the ngsw squad support rifle/ battle rifle contract and the ammo contract for their truly innovative truly “next generation” polymer ammo which fits the stipulations of the contract in every sense of the word. And this still irks me and disturbs me to this very day,
Those rounds look an awful lot like the 270/80 British. Is this an FN rifle chambered in the round originally meant for the FAL? Could this be a contender to replace L85?
Smaller bullet than the .280 British, so better external ballistics.
@@ScottKenny1978 unless you’re shooting through foliage
Lmao
@@off6848 brush busting is exaggerated at best.
Why do new systems have such tight tolerances? I can see a problem with reliability. No dust cover.
Interesting point, no cover! Thanks for watching.
Does anyone have a comparison of the weights of the various parts of this compared to the M4 and M5? I feel like that can determine if this is the best of both worlds of the M4 and M5 or if its half-assing its way between the two types and has the downsides of each.
Given it's FN it's likely very heavy. The SCAR H uses a lot more polymers in it's construction and still weighs 8lbs unloaded. This looks like it easily reaches into the 9-9.5lb range.
The M4 replacement weighs about 8 pounds empty from I’ve read. There’s also a DMR that weights around 9lbs & a CQB variant that weighs around 7lbs.
@@nemisous83 apparently it weighs 7-8 pounds in the carbine configuration and 6.5-7 pounds in the CQB configuration. The DMR/Recce configuration will weigh 8-9 pounds.
So many 6-6.8mm cartridges competing right now. My money is on the 6mm Arc or this. I think the 6.8spc is done and the 277 fury might replace 7.62 but there's no way it's sticking around to replace 5.56
The 6mm ARC will not work properly in the AR15/m4 platform without major changes. If it takes a whole new rifle design why would they keep the 2.26 OAL limitation, that would be insane. The newer platforms allow loading to 2.6" at least which will kill all old cartridges based on a 2.26 limitation.
@@crashdsnowman1 It could be reasonable to keep the OAL in order to reduce the overall weight of the round, and because FN is moving to a new platform the pressure restraints of 6arc in an ar15 are probably reduced. Recoil is also something to keep in mind; the 6arc will probably always have less recoil, reducing the need for added weight to the gun for recoil compensation. I don't disagree that the 6arc in the AR platform is highly limied, but if FN is moving to a new platform and 6arc follows it, then 6arc could be made more viable, and the .264 less necessary, cutting down at least recoil and cartridge weight, if not also the weight of come components in the gun, depending on what pressures the 6arc is able to achieve in the beef-er platform.
So to make that word salad make sense to my mind:
Incresing OAL may increase cartridge weight which may not be necessary due to the increase in possible 6arc pressures facilited by moving to a new platform. By increasing the 6arc pressures the .264's gains over the 6arc may no longer be enough to justify the increase in recoil, cartridge weight, magazine width and weight, and possibly rifle weight.
I suspect that if (when) the Army decides that the .277 is dumb a large part of that conclusion will be focused on overal weight and recoil management issues, so if they compare 6arc and .264 (assuming an increased pressure 6arc) their bias may be toward the lighter round.
Now, because it could be so close I definitely would not bet anything of real worth on it, but I would still put 6arc ahead if it was in an improved platform.
It almost looks like they took a 6.5 Grendel and gave it Steroids.
I kept wondering if this may have been a revisit of the original 264 USA cartridge the AMU developed about a decade ago, but this does look like something fairly new.
Seems a lot like 6.5 Grendel, no? Will be interesting to see where this goes
Except going 300 fps faster
6.5 grendel also requires a banana mag to feed properly, this round can obviously feed from a more straight mag
@@broderman5 6.5 Grendel is about as straight a case as .223
@@broderman5 I've been using 25rd 6.5 Grendel mags since 2009. They're just like a 30rd 5.56 mag in size and shape.
@@LRRPFco52 do you have a link to that? Or a brand name? I'd love to get some, do they work properly?
Simply put this is a performance based .243 Winchester with a short cartridge with out the use of an AR-10 lower keeping the M-4/C-8 concept. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🏁🇺🇦🌞🌻💮🌸🌼🏴☠️🏹
Wow
You know it would be cool if the same technology was applied to the 5.56. You would be able to go either the SIG way and just make a more powerful 5.56, or more interestingly you could do what FN has done here and make an even smaller case while keeping the same performance.
264 win mag is my bread and butter this is miraculous. Cant wait to wrap hands around one of these.
Looks more interesting than the Sig MCX in 6.8, 6.8 just doesn't seem very practical to me. It's not going to penetrate through modern ceramic/steel body armour anyway other than soft armour so why make it so powerful in the first place?
Although I don't think it's really necassery to move away from 5.56 exactly. It could use with an update to the case and projectile though, it lacks behind more modern designs somewhat. A change in case materials would be a very good idea. This 6.5mm round would be a good update though going off the shape and the case length, it should perform very well at distances although I question if the soldier shooting it is even capable of such ranges in the first place. 800 meters is no small distance to shoot a hidden man sized target out to.
Silly take
how can you tell the 6.8x51 doesnt go through level 4 armor?
@@joemama.556 Standard lead 12.7x99 won't penetrate a mdoern ceramic body armour plate unless you fire an AP round so I highly doubt 6.8/6.5 can. 30-06 AP struggles with modern armour at very close ranges which is much more powerful than 6.8/6.5.
@@Punisher9419 if you think anyone uses solid lead projectiles in combat you are just dellusional
@@Punisher9419 also, you wont survive a 12,7 to the chest. doesnt matter if your armor stops it, its gonna turn your insides into jelly
Can't wait to see this on forgotten weapons in 5 years
Ok but only after it's adopted.
@@themorningstar4512he talked about xm weapons before, so it doesn't have to be adopted by us military
a better sig mcx spear
I wonder how long it’ll be until they make a commercial version
Dunno about the charging handle design, otherwise seems to be a solid rifle.
Charging handle looks to be an HK style. Really though it’s just a more complicated AR-15 charging handle. Then again I like where the places the bolt release.
This cartridge should be THE cartridge, replacing both 5. 56 & 7. 62.
Just having .264 LICC / .264 USA, .338 Lapua & .50 cal.
5.56 should be replaced with a shorter cartridge that has same or better performance, like 6x35 PDW stepped up in mv.
That would allow lighter, smaller magazines and a smaller weapon for:
CO
1SG
XO
RTOs
Drivers
FSO
JTAC
Commo NCO
Supply NCO
Supply clerks
PL
PSG
RTO
FO
JTAC
Rifle Squad Leader
Fire Team Leader
Grenadier
Rifleman
Weapons Squad Leader
AG
AB
Anti-Armor Weapons Specialist
The main duty positions that would benefit from a High Performance Intermediate Rifle Cartridge would be SAW Gunners and DMs.
We need an Arms Room approach for Squad Leaders and Team Leaders who could either draw the PDW carrtidge blasters, or DMRs like this.
DM Training needs to be incorporated into Infantry OSUT and NCOPD.
@@KeterMalkuth .338 Norma is in general quite similar, so yeah.
You can replace .338 Lapua with .338 Norma, but the concept is the sams
Please tell me this will be in either 6.8 or .308
its interesting but i dont think it will go anywhere
I don't see it becoming a general service arm. Thanks for watching!
This will bridge the gap on recoil without moving barrels, etc.
Question is, how much does it costs per round to have 600+ meters kill through ceramic body armor.
I can't see the US moving away from 6.8 but I can see some European countries taking a deep look into this as an option.
Canada's SOF could be using this.
That's a lot of different calibres in the order book.
Replace 7.62 NATO with this, which would improve the overall small arms footprint and capabilities for less weight and recoil.
@@LRRPFco52 this is an interim cartridge so it’s better suited to replace 5.56 which this program intends to do. The 6.8mm developed by the army is better suited to replace 7.62 NATO which they directly compared it to.
@@iterationfackshet1990 This out-performs 7.62 NATO though from a smaller case, smaller magazine.
5.56 needs a smaller case to out-perform and replace it, like something based off .221 Fireball size, for smaller weapons and mags. We don't want anything bigger than 5.56 to replace it, since most soldiers carrying 5.56 are already overburdened.
@@iterationfackshet1990 Have you seen 6x35 PDW? Cool little cartridge. Allows you to stack more mags in the same space, with similar performance from shorter barrels.
Apply the improved performance cartridge design to that and out-match 5.56 even more.
Definitely for SOF. But I wish we'd stop reusing to ar15 look.
The AR15 has the best ergonomics in the world. The AR15 is also the best design layout for further developments in rifle technology. Just the best period. The AR is king and Kalash trash has stagnated to the point of being antiquated beyond redemption. The AK12 is a charade of a modern rifle and the Fal, G3, Famas, SA80 have all fallen to the wayside, the AR has conquered all its competitors and rightfully so, Eugene Stoner and Jim Sullivan did in fact design the combat rifle of the future. Can't be troppled, the Scar failed, the ACR program failed, and the ngsw program just produced an advanced AR design in the M7 Spear. The AR15 is the best.
@@tasjan9190 Psh bring back the Sexy Xm8 look
@@VectorGhost Bahahaha the XM8 looked like a fuk'ed up fish rifle
NGSW program was just cancelled. So this might get some attention.
after Season 2, the FTAC became the new meta. i haven't unlocked Gold Camo just yet but soon. TTK is teh Meta
Imo the FTAC was great even on release, everyone just slept on it till now. Not sure what that has to do with the video though.
I see dirt stopping this rifle real soon.....
Looks like a great replacement for the m4 but you probably want to hang on to the m4's too.. kinda like a more compact 6.5 creedmoor AR-10
I wonder has there ever been a concept of a rifle that fires some sort of shot, at rifle cyclical rates ~800 rounds per minute. Why penetrate armor when you can shower their face and arms with lead. Like a full auto 762 rat shot rifle lmao
Oh yeah, the G11 used a hyperburst system which was even faster. czcams.com/video/D7ooe6OaKzM/video.html
My first impression is of a solution looking for a problem.
This will go no where , exactly how many 5.56 replacements currently available . If they did nt succeed why should this ?
This was the exact answer IWTSD requested.
Why god why?!?! Why did you keep the side charging handle? WHY?!?!
.264 americans backtracking i see. LONG LIVE THE KING . seems us brits knew something about the future and ballistics when 280 British was developed
That rifles a beaut
I wish the Army held out until this thing showed up. This looks like the 7mm NATO we should’ve had 70 years ago.
You know its an FN because its 15 different colors.
All these Big Cartridge rifles whose only purpose is to defeat contemporary rifle plates are an exercise in futility. YOU WON'T BE ABLE to pierce them and it is not worth the weight and recoil, period.
Why recreate the wheel? Just go with the 6.5 Grendel.
Or the 6.5x47mm lapua
This is 300fps faster.
Too many problems stuffing it in an AR15, It a short 6.5x47 for all practical purposes.
Eugene Stoner was one of, if not THE greatest firearms designer ever. The AR-15/18 has taken over the world!! MuuHahahaha!!
HA HA HA AR Nederland