Balanced Recoil AK-107 / Kalashnikov SR-1: Is It Any Good?
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 07. 2022
- utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
One of the really interesting variations on the AK to come out of Russian military development and testing is the balanced-recoil system, as exemplified on the military AK-107 and the commercial Kalashnikov SR-1 rifles. Contrary to common assumption, this is not a system to counteract to recoil created by the bullet leaving the barrel. Instead, it is intended to counteract the movement of the rifle caused by the bolt slamming into he rear of the receiver and into the chamber. These two events are what cause most of the movement in a 5.56mm or 5.45mm AK, not the minimal recoil of the actual bullet.
The AK-107 is the military iteration of this system, and the SR-1 is the semiauto competition rifle version, and they both use the identical counter-balanced mechanism. Basically, the gas port vents both forward and backward, pushing on two separate pistons. One moved backwards, connected to the bolt carrier, and the other moves forwards to balance the momentum of the other. The two are connected by a sort of trolley with two gear wheels which ensure the two pistons remain synchronized. This system is relatively complex to disassemble, and the Russian military opted not to adopt it.
Kalashnikov Concern then released a semiauto version called the SR-1, specifically tailored to the IPSC-style rifle competition market. It uses a plastic lower and AR-type magazines, and has a crossbolt type safety instead of the standard AK safety. It also has a very effective three-port muzzle brake. In practice, it is actually this muzzle brake which contributes the most to the flat-shooting nature of the SR-1. The counter-balanced system does work as intended, but the improvement it provides is really on par with competition-style improvements made to AR rifles - and at the cost of significantly increased weight and complexity.
The SR-1 was a commercial flop for Kalashnikov, with only one production run being made, and subject to substantial QC problems. The rifles have been discontinued, and only a small number got out into the European civilian market.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
This is a surprisingly simple system. I was expecting some weights and wires like on an AN-94 but this is just a regular AK but with a counterweight on top that travels the opposite direction of the bolt.
It's such a creative system to have in a gun.
Edit thanks for 100 likes idk what likes do on a CZcams reply but it's nice to know that someone appreciates how interesting this gun is.
which is sick
I feel as though the mass of the forward moving portion us nowhere near enough to do the job. It should be equal or more to the bolt mass, not substantially less mass.
@@MachinistJohn agreed
Also almost useless in semiauto.
Kalashnikov Exec: "How we make rifle less jumpy?"
Kalashnikov Engineer: looks at steering rack of nearby Lada. "I got idea..."
soviet rack and pinion is best engineering in the world, comrade
Exec - "Stop looking at Lana's rack. That's not helping."
American military: make my rifle more jumpy!
SIG execs: looks at the 120mm tank ammo for pressure levels
@@mpopenker Hahahahahaha!
@@mpopenker Priceless.
At the end Ian makes a very important remark - you can get same results with an AR with lightened bolt carrier and carefully adjusted gas system.. which means very low reliability under actual combat condition (not on the range).
Balanced action was invented for controllable automatic fire under military conditions, where you cannot cheat by using lighter bolt groups and minimal gas drive power. Unfortunately, its actual advantage in performance when used in automatic rifles such as SA-006 or AEK-971 was rather small (like 10-15%) compared to the AK-74, and simply not worth the trouble in a military issue rifle.
That's the entire problem right there though; people that think military rifles should or could be adopted for civilian use. The military has weapons with large magazines, long barrels, full-auto capability for a reason. Any civilian who thinks that they too need these things is a moron and should never be allowed near any type of weapon, be it rifle, handgun, crossbow, lawndart, anything.
Who are you to determine someone else's needs? If you follow your logic, no civilian needs a gun at all. Stop falling into the anti gun trap. It's not about need, need is subjective. The people of Ukraine NEED all of those things right now.
@@MrBottlecapBill curious as to what spurious reason you’d have cited if not for having that war as a strawman?
@@minimaltrace Ah yes, the distinct military weapon characteristic of *checks notes* "A long barrel"
@@MrBottlecapBill Not exactly true, at least not yet. The Ukrainian Military already has auto weapons at their disposal, and they are sticking by the Geneva Conventions by not allowing civillians to fight as unregular fighters. Even foreign volunteers are being incorporated into the Ukrainian Army.
Grip Clamp C ™ spotted. [Thumbnail]
Side note: To add to military adaptation concerns, I wonder if the complex recoil-mitigating system also has a negative effect on it's accuracy too? I can imagine a rickety recoil mitigation system ON THE BARREL having some kind of effect on harmonics.
when you visit Slovenia you will be able to try it. Greetings from Slovenia
I wonder if it can have a positive effect on full auto accuracy, as the force that bends the barrel is equalized by second piston.
Интересное предположение. С другой стороны, с появлением второго поршня, изгибающий момент на стволе при выстреле, появлявшийся при давлении газов из газового блока на один газовый поршень, здесь будет отсутствовать, т.к. газы теперь давят на оба поршня расположенных оппозитно.
But the only place the balanced recoil system touches the barrel is at the gas port, which is in the same place as a standard AK.
@@ph_pork0 АК-107 погубило еще быстрый износ оружие при использовании подствольного гранатомета. Да и в целом это мертворожденный проект, он провалился еще при СССР не просто так.
As someone with a physics background, i really appreciated that you started with a very clear description of the essential physics.
As an engineer, allow me to clarify why this system doesn't work. Newtons 3rd law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Forcing the countermass forward pushes the rifle with an equal force in the opposite direction. F_right - F_left = 0. Nothing is achieved. The ONLY thing this system does is change how the recoil force is distributed during the firing cycle. The total force your shoulder feels when firing a round is the same, regardless of whether a countermass is on the rifle or not. Your shoulder still has to resist the same force that the bullet experiences when being forced out of the barrel. F_bullet = F_shoulder
This system only changes how quickly the bolt opens and thus how many percent of the total recoil force is transferred into your shoulder through the gears pivot points when the bolt is accelerating backwards and how many percent is transferred when the bolt hits the back of the receiver. The heavier the countermass - the bigger percentage of the recoil force is transferred in the beginning of the recoil cycle.
In summary, this system only changes the recoil impulse from one bigger jolt when the bolt hits the back, to a slighlty more drawn out, slightly weaker, more long lasting jolt. But the TOTAL force your shoulder must resist is still the same, and a firing cycle is so quick that you should barely be able to tell any difference. You still feel the exact same counterforce of one bullet going out of the barrel regardless.
The tradeoff is: big force over short time, or small force over long time.
A way better way than this of achieving a less jerky recoil, is to just use a regular bolt with a very long travel and a spring that slows it down completely, before it hits the back of the receiver, like in the Ultimax 100.
There is no cheating the laws of physics, you can't "redirect" a force without a counterforce.
Back in the 1970s and 1980s, the German Diana company used a very similar system to make 'recoil-less' spring/air target air rifles and air pistols. (In the UK, these were sold under the 'Original' brand name, because another vendor had licensed the 'Diana' trademark.)
Here the point was not to mask the recoil of an 8 grain .177 pellet travelling at around 600 ft/s but to compensate for mechanical disturbance caused by the otherwise conventional piston and spring mechanism.
As such these systems worked tolerably well. However most serious competitors preferred air weapons based on pre-compressed CO2 or single stroke pneumatic mechanisms, or the Feinwerkbau system, which used a damped recoil buffer to absorb the disturbances caused by a conventional spring/air mechanism.
@@jakburk I'd say this system cannot change the recoil impulse from the combination of the projectile and gas momentum released on firing. But conservation of momentum only requires that the impulse is unchanged. The magnitude of the forces involved and the timing of when they act and for how long can be changed by this sort of system. As most shooters will not have access to this kind of exotic hardware, a roughly similar comparison can be made by firing any given cartridge in both a semiauto and a mechanical repeater (or single shot). For the most valid demonstration, the two firearms should have the same mass and the same barrel length.
@@derekp2674 I agree 100%. Well written. I tried to put it a bit more in laymans terms, but you are 100% correct.
@@jakburk The point of the mechanism isn't about negating recoil itself (clearly, it's impossible), but rather neutralizing the torque directed upwards (due to the barrel not being in line with the contact point between the rifle's butt and the shooter's shoulder).
I guess this system makes more difference in full auto, as it was intended, I've seen a video of AK-107 being fired, and that was really impressive - almost holding still. It was shot by one of Russian IPSIC amateur shooters, specialised in shotguns.
Was the brake on that one as well? That would make sense
You can also see it in action on Vickers Tactical.
You mean that propaganda video?
It doesn't matter Gun Jesus has spoken.
Idiots denying reality in comment are amusing. One said gun god spoken (LOL) another one things its somehow propaganda video. We all seen results, it works, and its better than pimp competition AR15, its simply not worth it.
I think the recoil system probably makes more sense in full auto. It's a fairly complex design but they did a pretty good job at making it as elegant as they could.
This system makes sense for semi auto.
All of the recoil is felt immediately as the bullet leaves the gun allowing you to get back on target faster than if the gun jerked when the bolt hits the front and back of the receiver. A constant recoil system would be better for full auto
The mechanics of it alone make no sense. Not worth the hassle. It has to be too well synchronised to work
The recoil caused by the bolt stopping is overstated to the point it seems he thinks it causes the majority of the recoil which if true would mean a single shot rifle would have less recoil than a semi but we know the opposite is true. Moving mass can result in near zero recoil, the Browning recoil less shotgun proves that using a spring loaded action that is moving forward when the gun fires.
@@CCW1911 the bolt hitting the back isn't what created the recoil. Recoil energy is transferred to the bolt and is released in a sudden jolt when it hits the back of the receiver. I do agree that it seems over stated, especially when a lot of the recoil is transferred through the locking lugs.
@@CCW1911 I know that the recoil got significantly worse when I put a 3mm thick buffer into my PSL, because the bolt carrier was hitting the end of the receiver at higher speed. And that was after I put an extra power recoil spring in it.
From my observations, it appears the Russian engineers almost maxed out the muzzle-brake efficiency & added the recoil system to further reduce recoil in a rifle that was meant to be a commercial "assembly line" product whereas other weapons with similar recoil mitigating characteristics require a gunsmith to hand-tune the system. Not bad Russian engineers! Bravo!
a lot of people say the Soviets and Russians like to make something cheap and simple. so they forgot that the ak 47 entered production in 1948 3 years after the 2nd world ever. America still uses the m1 garand. and the new m14 will come out 9 years from now in 1957
if it was tuned to the muzzle device with it's mass anyway, it's a bit unfair to say that the muzzle device does most of the work. it's like saying that the air cleaner does most of the work on an engine that was tuned with it being there.
Us americans designed a ball point pen for space. Gotta make jobs somehow
Yes..because you do not want dust from a pencil anywhere in a spacecraft...@@piotrplewa1889
@@piotrplewa1889that's kind of an urban legend. NASA also used pencils, the pressurised Fischer pen was independently developed and eventually used by both nasa and the Russians.
Just always interesting to see how much the muzzle device actually makes a difference.
@LabRat Knatz People's reading comprehension has gotten worse by the year after the internet became mainstream. Especially the youth nowadays need emojis in their messages to convey the context of how that message is to be interpreted; they just can't read between the lines. This is not directed towards Laughing Man, just something I've noted and felt was related to the conversation.
@@alkestos Oh please stop with this age old myth. There are so many more people using words now than any other time in history. So yes you'll see more bad comprehension, but a net increase as more people read and use words daily. Also language changes and emojis are just another way of conveying information using symbols, which is what letters are.
People have been saying variations of what you just did forever and it's so boring to see. "kids these days blah blah". 😡😡😡👴
"Using telephones will destroy the art of letter writing" etc etc.
Yes
Even the AKM style which is just part of the barrel cut away helps a lot.
There is an old US study when army tried M16 agains ak-74. Normal stock M16 and than m16 with ak-74 muzzle brake mounted. As to be expected 2nd variant shown quite significant improvement in full auto
I’ve been wanting Ian to break down the AK 107 balanced recoil system since Vickers Tactical did their video on it a few years ago.
I've been waiting since I played Arma 2.
Larry makes anything seem to shoot like this lol
@@dashingdave2665 idk m8 that M14 looked like a handful.
You triggered a memory. Yes! Mr. Vickers spotlighted this one, and for reasons, I never followed it up with my own research.
Now on combat approved detail video. Welcome to the future
Really appreciate you taking the muzzle break off for a comparison, I was curious about that myself.
I have read that the Chinese Type 81 was designed with a longer receiver so the extra travel time would reduce the force of the BCG hitting the back of the receiver, to make the weapon handle at full auto better then the equivalent AK. Would love to see Ian come up to a vendor in Canada that has the correct licensing to use large capacity magazines and have Ian shoot the Type 81. He could do a video on the Canadian AR180 based rifles at the same time, like the WK180-C Gen 2, WS-MCR, Crusader Sentinel, and TSE/Sterling R18MK2.
That would result in a lower firerate, no?
@@sibidinakaran4757apparently not cause the type 81 shoots abt 100RPM faster than the AKM
That's interesting. My guess is that it is because the Type 81 is a short-stroke piston design, and therefore has a lighter BCG that can cycle more quickly despite the longer receiver length.@@thesand8580
I have a massive soft spot for balanced recoil AKs because it was an explanation of the mechanics of them that actually got me into understanding normal AKs at the same time which kicked off my big gun phase that led to me actually having (some of) an idea of how automatic guns actually work, which I had been a little hazy on for years.
I basically only own a gun because of this one
Grip clamp C™ in the thumbnail indicates style and class.
I was looking for anyone commenting on that .. glad to see someone else noticed!
...and he has dangerously high levels of both.
Larry Vickers had a great video on a similar rifle in 5.45. His video was more action while yours shown the inner workings of the system. Very interesting system.
I have a SR-1 and got so many problems. The ammo doesn't feed well and the muzzle break fell off one time because they didn't tighten it. Its a great gun to shoot (when the system works)
Perfect candidate for the Elbonian commandos. With that muzzle brake, you can definitely see and hear them coming!
Bonus, can just drill it out with average elbonian hand drill too
This was meant to happen, we should start a charity to help arm them with these
@LabRat Knatz whoosh
Those QC problems would also help the sabotaging effort.
Far too common of a caliber. I had the same thought but decided they need an unnecessarily obscure cartridge. .20 Practical or .243 LBC would fill that role nicely.
@@johnanon6938 Not entirely. They will 3D print them in PLA. As long as they don’t shoot too many rounds they won’t burst into flames. Accuracy matters!
It has to be the most AR looking AK out there
Just no.....
I mean, have you seen a Galil ACE Gen 2? If a rifle deserves the title of forbidden love child of Kalashinikov and Stoner, it would be it.
It was born an AK but identifies as an AR!
I suggest you to look up Mk47 Mutant
Looks a lot like the Galil ACE in 5.56x45.
I would be really interested to see that exact compensator on a comparable weapon without the extra internals, see if it's maybe a case of the total effect being greater than the sum.
I feel like they could've gotten 80-90% of the "improvements" this rifle offered from a combination of that compensator and lengthening the receiver a few centimeters to keep the bolt from bottoming out.
I hope, one day Ian will make "Korobov TKB-022PM at the range" a reality.
Theres absolutely no way. I'm waiting for a reproduction. o_o
the political situation for this undertaking is currently hopeless.
As someone who can read Russian on native level there's nothing that is harder to read than "cyrillified" english words, actually makes my brain explode ,lol
It seems like every generation has to come up with a new transliteration scheme. Chinese and Arabic have the same issue.
When I had to write my name in russian the first time, I was like "That doesn't make sense, ewww! Why can't I call myself with another name like Boris instead?"
It's the same for Arabic, it's harder for me to read "western" proper names or brands written in Arabic script than Arabic words 😅
I've been wanting to see the insides of one of these for SO LONG!!! I've also wanted to see whether or not the balanced recoil system is something that actually reduces recoil or if it was the actual muzzle break. Great video!
To truly minimize the effects of recoil on muzzle climb, you need to
1. Reduce the weight of the moving mass (carrier and bolt assembly) to an absolute minimum while making the static portions of the rifle as heavy as feasibly possible. This reduction in the change of momentum will minimize the amount of energy that the shooter's shoulder needs to absorb.
2. Design the system to utilize constant recoil (where the bolt rearward motion of the bolt is overcome by the mainspring and it never actually impacts the rear of the receiver). This eliminates any sharp impact and replaces it with a long, gentle push.
3. Utilize an optimized cartridge, gas port, and mainspring combination so that the absolute minimum amount of energy is sapped from the system to achieve extraction, ejection, overcome magazine friction, and chamber the next round. The mainspring still pushes on the gun and shooter's shoulder during the cycling of the bolt; designing the system to use the absolute minimum amount of cycling energy will directly reduce the felt recoil to an equivalent minimum.
4. Locate the bore directly inline with the shooter's shoulder. Even AR shooters raise the bore above this optimal arrangement by placing the toe of the stock on the shoulder instead of the heel. Raising the bore above the contact point on the shoulder creates a pivoting moment when the rearward recoil is absorbed, resulting in the barrel axis rising relative to the initial aiming point. When the rifle chambers, the forward impact of the bolt is not resisted by a moment-creating offset, so the rifle tends to lurch forward off of the shoulder on the new, raised axis.
Doing those 4 would result in an entirely impractical, goofy-looking rifle with the cheek rest about 4" above the bore, and the sight line another ~2-3" above that. It would only function correctly with very specifically loaded ammunition and possibly even custom, low-friction magazines to cope for that weak mainspring... the plus side would be an absolute minimum in felt recoil and zero muzzle climb. Essentially, you'd be designing a semi-automatic benchrest rifle
I did 1 and 3 to a .223 AK, and achieved 3 with a rubber buffer instead of constant recoil. Very fast trigger fingers is a reason why you would not want constant recoil in a IPSC-rifle.
That AK has less recoil than the SR1 and weights much less. And it looks pretty much like a normal AK... kind of..
See you make great points, but the reason why that isn't possible is the same reason why competition / range shooters carefully tune their gas blocks and bolt weights and spring tensions, but militaries don't. In combat conditions, the slightest bit of dirt on a bolt assembly, or rifle wear and tear, or slightly different pressured rounds, etc. etc. - all of this combined with a hairpin margin for error in a tuned system like that, would inevitably result in a feed issue or gun jam. It's a lot safer to have more energy passed through to the bolt assembly than necessary just to make sure the gun cycles despite any conditions.
Now, what this rifle is doing, is passing the same excess energy into two separate bolts, so that even if there are wear issues, both bolts still go the full length of travel, and theoretically, both the forward and backward recoil impulses on the rising and falling actions of the bolt are delivered in perfect synchronisation. This eliminates all recoil due to the bolt assembly at the cost of a heavier gun, maintainence issues, cost issues, and potentially performance issues due to the need to extract more gas to drive two bolts, although you can simply lighten the bolts.
The only recoil this system is compensating for is the recoil that might throw a shooter off target / temporarily make them go off their sights, which impacts the accuracy of the second shot more so than the recoil of the bullet itself.
Now if you really wanted to eliminate recoil, you move the barrel, bolt assembly, trigger group, and stock onto one axis. This means that recoil is now simply forward and back. The only reason we say recoil makes the gun rise up is because the backwards recoiling motion of the bolt acts on a rotating pivot - your hand on the gun - creating torque. Now, like you said, if the stock is directly in line with the recoiling body, now you eliminate that bounciness of the recoil. If the stock is in line with the barrel and the bolt, you've eliminated all vertical recoil.
I feel like the spirit of the AN-94 lives on in this rifle.
Because it does. AK-107, AEK-971 and AN-94 (the names that time could be different though) were a competitors in "Abakan" program. They are alternative approaches to the same mission. And AK-107 has lost the trials. The only reason of its revival was a hope for commercial sales.
where pulley?
The AN-94 is a vastly different design. This uses counter balance system, the AN has a double feed system to fire two rounds one after the other to put two rounds on target with one trigger pull and reduce barrel drift on follow ups.
@@Frumious_Jabberwocky it doesn't, they are very different designs
@@MrGreghome it's not the same design
For the few that are aware, well played Ian. I was looking for the inverted c clamp throughout the whole video, but it just wasn't there :( got me bamboozled there
Inverted c clamp?
@@brighamruud5090 a way of holding the handguard czcams.com/video/Tm56ZmHiCHY/video.html
It’s Grip Clamp C ! !
The goofy way Ian is holding the rifle in the video thumbnail.
@@thompson1353 it's a reference to Polenar Tactical
It's hardly surprising that the balance mass doesn't seem to do a huge amount, as it appears to weigh a fraction of what the bolt carrier weighs.
On some level it has to. If they weigh the same or contain the same amount of energy the bolt will stop moving. It needs a directional bias to function or at least that's my non expert opinion.
@@MrBottlecapBill It doesn't need a bias - there's energy entering the system through the gas ports. Try picturing one barrel with two gas ports drilled side by side powering two actions side by side - there's no reason for that not to work, is there? Now turn one around, and it still works. The only thing those gears do is keep it nicely in sync.
My best guess is they've kept the counterweight light as they can leave most of the work to that muzzle brake, and a heavier counterweight means a heavier rifle. It's also unlikely they'd fit a heavy enough counterweight into a more or less standard AK receiver, at least not without using tungsten weights.
Depends on the speed it moves. Newton No2 . Force = Mass x aceleration. so it can weigh less if it takes off faster. The 3 laws of motion Newton devised all work together.
@@51WCDodge but it doesn’t move faster. It’s being driven by the same gears as the bolt carrier
@@discerningscoundrel3055 they could have significantly lightened the AK bolt carrier and made the balance heavier.
Or put the balance weight in front of the front trunnion, over the barrel.
The top-cover that actually wedge-locks in place to maintain zero seems the most significantly *functional-improvement* in that rifle.
The balanced-action seems pretty well-engineered--to a sharp limit: With *that* system, _why_ is the bolt-carrier _hitting the back of the receiver?_ If it were _continuous-recoil_ then it would not need the muzzle-brake.
You need a muzzle break because you don't want the propellant gas acting like rocket exhaust. Your understanding of physics is... Well not great.
Because the muzzle brake mitigates the actual physical recoil by redirecting some gas?
But yeah, a constant/continuous long recoil action probably would've spread the force over time without being that complex
Would like to see this on a 7.62 by 39 version. 556 does not really need it as much.
Yea but you do competition in 556 not 762.
Larger calibers would make the recoil system even less effective though.
@@TimtheWinzard isnt it just a matter of making the counter weight bigger to match the mass of the bolt?
@LabRat Knatz Yea in 300BO would be good.
@@magamike1800 nope - bigger cartridge means much more recoil is from gases and bullet itself not the bolt.
As an owner of one of these (who wanted to show it to you at FB 2022 XD) I agree 100% with this review. But the biggest dealbreaker with this rifle is actually that the topcover does not hold zero well. I had to build a little block that tentions the rail to the front trunnion to fix that issue.
So yeah, super interesting collectors piece, but an AR will be better in basically every way.
When I saw that I thought "oh, they're putting it on the dust cover, neat. That's very brave of them, I wonder what they did to fix it in place?". And then it seemed to me like it was less secure than one of the Finnish guns.
@@TheFanatical1 I think this can be a fairly secure design for a rail mount. But they simply don't have the capability to manufacture the guns with close enough tolerances to pull it actually off.
That's what I was thinking when I saw Ian take the optic with the top cover. Isn't this meant for sporting purposes? Kinda pain in the ass, having to re-zero the gun after cleaning.
@@pirig-gal mine actually does return to zero. But it only does it because of my self made retentioning block. Without it I can move the rail up and down in the front with just two fingers.
Awesome video, I’ve been wanting to hear more about this rifle and this was very thorough! :D
Since the vickers video on the ak-107 i fell in love with this weapon, thanks for doing another contribution to it!
I would have loved Ian to go to Russia's Kalashnikov Factory... However as of the Happenings around the world is currently. My wished may not come true for the next many years to come.
Would really love to see a video on the TKB's the AEK's the AK-12's ( which is getting some heat on social media currently ) and other cool rifles! :)
Well... perhaps under new management..
Considering the "happenings around the world currently", it is difficult not to wish for the Kalashnikov factory to burn to the ground, along with the rest of Russia's weapon production facilities.
@@MegaAdeny no lol the world needs ak
@@MegaAdeny lol, why exactly ? for cleaning up the mess the West did in ukraine by placing nazis in power, filling the sons of politicians with cash (like joe biden's own son www.youtube .com/watch?v=vCSF3reVr10), etc
while ukraine killed nearly twenty thousand people mostly of russian descent no one bat an eye.
and the west failed at multiple points to prevent this war.
@@MegaAdeny That’s like saying VolksWagen shouldn’t exist because Hitler decided german people should have affordable german cars
Bless you Ian. You bring us what we might not otherwise understand or appreciate. This channel is pure learning and enjoyment, Thank you.
thank you Ian for another great video! always love to learn something new
Thank you for this video, I've been waiting a long time to hear your opinion and explanation of the inner workings of this rifle. Ever since I heard of its inception and possible military adoption back in 2013.
Time to create "guns with gears inside" playlist.
Gears of war for you
I'm so glad you finally got your hands on one of these! Fascinating design; totally obvious why the Russians didn't want it as a military arm (it's not as complex as the mechanism in the Textron NGSW, but there are obviously a million things that would go wrong with that in the field).
Great to see an in depth video on this rifle. That little part under the trigger is not for the safety, it is present on all AK-100 rifles and TR-3, it is an overtravel stop that they for some reason decided to make as a separate part that can rattle inside the receiver.
Very cool. Thanks for posting this! I love AKs, but have never looked into these in detail.
The better test would be by first blocking the gas port (to eliminate all bolt travel) and comprare it with stanndard AK74 and then with SR1
I think the better test would be test it with both ends of the gas block, blocked (ie as a straight pull bolt action) to get a full impression of the round being fired, then blocked as you said, but without the counter balance system in, to test against a more traditional AK, then with the counterbalance system in but not functioning, to see what the added mass adds, then fully working, ideally with the rifle butt against a load cell, but that's all too much for someone to set up for a reasonable short overview of the rifle, but it would be interesting to see... polenar tactical, you know you really really want to do some science?
I suspect doing so would highlight the fact that overall reduction in mass of the bolt carrier, and piston rod is actually the secret sauce that helps reduce felt recoil in this AK series.
@@ArgosySpecOps maybe, maybe the key is an AUG style recoil spring ahead of the bold, thats has a variable compression, the ones that go from easy to hard, i can't remember what they're called, to do more to slow down the bolt before it hits, hells maybe even a second recoil spring to slow the bolt down when closing, softer than the main recoil spring
I have been waiting for this for ages.
From Larry Vickers’ video I would guess the value add for this system is mostly in FA. Which makes sense.
I still suspect there is some technical advantages to be wrung from the Stoner 63 still. Specifically in the use of free floating weights inside the gas piston. The idea being that the weights change the sudden impact impulse of the bolt carrier’s end of travel to one more drawn out, as the weights hit the end of their travel milliseconds latter in cycle. I have often wondered if a system with a weight stabilized by two sealed gas springs inside the gun’s gas piston body could be made the function reliably. This would take peak recoil and dampen it into a pair of overlapping sine curves.
Or you use a longer/stiffer recoil spring so that the bolt carrier doesn't slam into the back of the receiver, Sullivan constant recoil system.
@@ScottKenny1978 Isn't the Sullivan constant recoil system basically the traditional AR buffer tube?
@@ArcturusOTE I don't think so. Pretty sure that the AR bolt carrier does slam into the buffer at the back of the tube, and that's not what we want to have happen.
The Stoner 63 does employ a constant recoil mechanism, I.e the bolt never slams into the back of the receiver. It slows down and gets overcome by the spring. This is not the system in a standard AR15 type rifle but such a system could be adapted if the system were properly balanced. Jim Sullivan has done just that and there is a video on the rifle and the interview with him on this channel or on InRangeTV.
@@JG54206 it is worth saying that military rifles are always over gassed, and that a rifle with a balanced gas system will not pass military trials.
Which is why you use an extra long spring in the Stoner 63/Ultimax system.
Ian, you just love anything that goes bang. 👍👍👍You should do an episode with battleship New Jersey about the felt recoil similar to this counterbalance setup. It would be a great side story to include, although I don’t think you can test the 16” guns.
Side note the constitution allows dracfinel to fire the cannon to drop the daily colors if you want to do an east coast big gun tour.
I love the idea. Hopefully some parts of it get iterated into other designs. That said, I can’t imagine trying to keep this thing lubed without gunking up…
The "best" part of an AK is that you can teach an illiterate conscript how to maintain the weapon in 30 minutes. This system? Not so much.
Nyet. AK is fine and doesn't require cleaning
Almost certainly there would be a little valve or button to completely disable the forward recoiling valve independently of the rear valve and at that point you can shrug and say "well if you drop it and it breaks, you now have a normal AK, take out all the extra shit and you'll be fine. Don't drop it."
@@mengx94 and if you believe that, then you believe that the US is not in a recession and did win in Afghanistan.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 to be fair it really doesn't require cleaning. I have a Serbian AKM and the only thing that happens if I don't clean it after multiple range days is that it gunks up to the point where I can physically feel the bolt struggling to go back into battery on my shittier mags like my Izhmash stamped spines and the occasional jam from said mags.
I've been waiting for this for so long!
Counter-balanced recoil is something to be obsessed about
The more bits to break or lose, the more will be broken or lost.
@LabRat Knatz Exactly. I know Korobov created a variant of such rifle system in 1965 called TKB-072, which was designed before the AEK, but it did not go into production, so I suppose AEK-971 is a much more iconic firearm.
@@dirkbruere Well, if a private is a dumbass he will lose or break parts no matter what.
Funny thing is that A545 which is a modernized design of AEK-971 is actually *lighter* than its competitor AK-12. And imho, it looks cooler.
@@DeyonOttervenBur Privates being dumbasses is a given.
I've been loving the interviews with Polenar Tactical. You guys should do a regular series... way too much fun.
I have always wondered what this system was comprised of. Your explanation was both simple, and yet complete. Very well done!
I have been waiting AT LEAST 14 years for this video. Ever since I learned about the BARS in the AEK-971, I'd been wanting a detailed video breakdown of the moving parts, and this video delivered. From what I can remember, where this system actually had benefits was in burst and sustained automatic fire. I remember seeing some old Russian trials demo video where they demonstrated with tracers the dispersion of full auto fire from the AEK-971 and were able to keep all rounds on man-sized targets from 50, 75, and 100 yards... I wish I could find that video again because it was fascinating.
That being said, I think the BARS becomes pointless when in a neutered semi-automatic platform, much like the Kryss Vector. Neat to have, but not very practical.
Wish you could test a full auto one. I always imagined the systems performs best in full auto.
You have one of the most important weapons-channels on CZcams. Very good stuff Sir!
This is the firearm i have been wanting a in depth look at for years now, thank you! :)
This was incredibly interesting! Mechanical recoil compensation was always a curiosity for me, and I just assumed that their non-prevalence meant that we'd just figured out it wasn't worth it. Very interesting to see you confirm it as a shooter.
Of course it's not worth it; this system works for AK-based automatic rifles because of the mass required for the cycle.
It is simpler with the AR-15 base automatic rifle. Just reduce the bolt carrier/bolt mass and you'll get similar results.
The AK-107/SR-1 is such an interesting rifle design to me. As a tinker, I wonder if the recoil system could be simplified to make it easier to take down without so much hassle. I want one so badly
Wow, Prof. Ian, Thank You for the weapon lecture. 👍
Absolutely want one,love all mechanics of firearms,but this makes me giddy,thanks Ian!
Best thing about this rifle is that sweet looking front guard.
Amazing piece of engineering. Imagine over time as the system became more simplified/reliable. The potential is there.
I think Ian demonstrated that the potential is not that great when the muzzle brake does more than the counter-balanced mechanism does.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 the recoil is not that small. Makes me wonder if it was designed properly. I suspect that it should be possible to tune it to completely cancel the recoil. Maybe they had problems with heavier counter balance part. AEK looks like more elegant system, more potentioal there.
@@tiortedrootsky is the AEK able to put a larger counterbalance by placing it below the rearward piston?
@@revimfadli4666 look up video "Военная приемка «Сбалансированный автомат»".
Theres disassembly of AEK and slow motion of shooting the disassembled gun. Sand and ice test with slowmo of dirty gun. Remember, that its from Zvezda tv channel, the russian military one, so they wouldnt hide any problems, of course.
The gas chamber is a ring, like on some shotguns. The forward counterbalance is a rod, and it is moving inside a tube that is the piston for the carrier. The ring gas chamber is between the front of the tube and a mushroom thing on the rod.
Carrier+counterbalance go out in one piece, like ak, much more streemlined than the ak-107.
Supposedly it passed all the testing, but the carbon from russian corrosive ammo would go everywhere and the carrier is not fully field disassemblable as i understand, so that would be a problem.
I was so exited to see you do this gun! Thank you so much. What a treat! Where is polernar tactical located out of?
The video I've been waiting for but never sure I was going to see!
I've thought about a similar thing but I believed it would work better with something like an open bolt SMG. The mass of the bolt in an Uzi or other unlocked bolt weapon makes a big difference in controllability I believe. Balancing that mass while firing would be of more benefit. Look what they tried with the KRISS for goodness sakes.
Wouldn't an open bolt lower first shot accuracy by slamming forward?
Maybe a delayed blowback action with constant/long recoil would be better?
Considering that the two are locked together, one wonders if just using a spring instead of a second gas tap and calling it a dampener would've been easier in the end
Devices exist that allow you to tune the AK gas system (KNS adjustable gas piston) and stiffer springs are available from ALG. A properly tuned AK BCG does not impact the rear trunion. A correct muzzle brake designed for a small amount of high pressure blast as from 5.45 or 5.56 will give you a cheaper, lighter weapon with nearly the same characteristics.
Probably too much force going through the gears in that case. As is, the gears only need to make up for the small difference in acceleration between bolt and counterweight, instead of transferring the full forces needed to accelerate the counterweight.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 oh for sure, I was just suggesting a halfway point between "overly complex and kind of superfluous" and "not as complex, but still kind of superfluous."
@@JosephHarner Mmm, you're probably right.
Now that I think about it like that, I wonder if the QC problems mentioned are heat treat/shearing issues on the cogs. Non-uniform increases in friction would quickly add up in terms of wear I suspect.
I think that would result in the cogs wearing out much faster since that would cause 100% of the recoil force to be transmitted through them.
I appreciate that you give a balanced opinion on this, pointing out that it makes a difference but maybe not enough of a difference to be worth it. I'd be curious to see this compared side by side to a more standard AK with the same muzzle break.
glad to finally get a new hands-on analysis of these unicorns
Nice to hear your oppinion about this rifle. I have two videos regarding the SR-1 on my channel, a Test shooting and a review. From a sporting perspective, this thing is an work of art with outstanding characteristics. But you are right, military use is not the best idea.
Would that system work better on a battlerifle?
Brilliant concept an elegant execution.
damn good video and great perspective on the balanced recoil system.
In my oppinion(as PHD Student), they analyzed the oscillation behaviour of the (old AK) rifle, and found 2~3 frequencies/harmonics which were frequency wise/geometrically so far apart that they compensated with two different mechanicsms that would work together (position an frequency). So i think the compensator and the balanced piston system were designed to work together.
I was about to comment about this. I dont believe the factory designed the gun without the effects of that specific compensator in mind.
What?
I think you give the folks at Izhmash a little to much credit.
In IPSC competition shooting most rifles are basically tuned by drilling the compensating ports larger and larger untill you get sufficient downward push. I think that is what they did here: buildt the blanced system and then added a brake/comp and tuned it to work well with those rifles.
That is how it is usually done whrn building custom rifles as well, it basically requires no math to just drill the top ports on the brake larger, remove some weight from the bolt and turn the gas down a little untill the rifle does what you want.
@@antonw-uw4ov While the technique the original poster mentioned would be optimal, I believe you are correct. Physics-based analysis of a rifle's recoil would be extremely expensive in terms of professional engineer man-hours, when compared to one or two gunsmiths with a milling machine, some round bar stock, and a couple boxes of ammo. And the analysis would probably only get a few extra percent of recoil reduction relative to the educated trial and error from the gunsmiths.
@@antonw-uw4ov for single compensators systems i would agree. but since this is a two level compensation system. It seems obvious that they understood their system of oscillating masses ( 2nd Order differential equation, but with multiple sources and maybe additional higher orders of resonance ). Not sure if they calculated and measured it or just experimented around, but the fact that they intentionally used two different systems to compensate for moving masses tells me they knew it would not work as good as only using one. To find out what they really did placing gravity sensors onto the rifle ( Arduino is fast enought ) and measuring the vibration/acceleration during the shot would be fine. I am pretty convinced that both systems were designed to damp an harmonic oscillation in combination.
Perhaps this system is tunned to different weight of a bullet or something? It is hard to imagine that they would put so much work into this idea without a solid evidence of it actually working.
You obviously have not seen many of Ian's videos of the "good idea fairy's droppings". Bad ideas with powerful sponsors can go surprisingly far. I, myself thought that this concept was most useful for a Squad Automatic Weapon. If it didn't work there, it seems odd that it would be put in a semiautomatic rifle.
It does work, it just doesn't work as well as everyone wants it to work, because that's hard. No doubt this system is a good enough compromise between weight and reliability. It could work better and be reliable but it would have to be heavier, or it could be more reliable and lighter but it doesn't work as well.
It works but not good enough to justify a the experience - ak-107/a545 have ~15% increased hit probably in full auto from unstable firing position.
@@tsorevitch2409 Sure, but couldn't effect be increased simply by increasing counter-mass?
@@sir0herrbatka it won't really do anything except reducing the resource, increasing the weigh and cost.
Neat. I was hoping you could get ahold of one of these to check out.
Ian, again with a dinger of a video.
Thanks
Is...is that an AK-G36?
Brandon is crying into his white claw with unbridled jealousy right now.
I love the look of that handguard.
This man always uploads as soon as I start work
Ar15: Hey baby you wanna sleep with me tonight?
AK: Sure, honey! Let's get high!
*9 months later:*
Here before this blows up😁
oh dear! "fauxcyrillic" subreddit is going to have a field day with this video's thumbnail.
Love it how Ian is sporting a nice Grip Clamp C in the thumbnail.
It was made to keep barrel on target, to compensate barrel jump because of heave bolt moving, so that system just balancing weight of bolt to keep barrel on target. As AK representative said on expo.
i think this is pretty much in line with what kalashnikov tries to put out on the market nowadays. old platforms modified with tacticool features and maybe a few genuine improvements, all largely overpriced for what it is. about 2 years ago they announced the MP-155 Ultima shotgun and opened preorders for it for more than twice the price of a base model MP-155, and its basically the same receiver wrapped in heavy furniture and it has an integrated stopwatch, they couldn't get any other features on the onboard "computer" to work. also someone at kalashnikov even stole the visual design from an indie videogame company from the US. this ultima thing still hasn't been produced by the way.
Does anybody else feel like seeing the russians keeping a 70 year old steel framework on the inside of a modern attempt at a gun as a bit like trying to make a main battle tank out of a a winnebago? it has a different system on the inside and they are trying to design it to fit the packaging of yesteryear instead of packaging it properly in new parts made for this?
They will do it if somebody buys them. Russian guns are crazy but most of them are ended up in their own museum. Also they are gun factory with more factory worker than gunsmith so each gun have to follow certain template.
yeah, that's bureaucracy for you - fresh thinking is never rewarded, but punished instead. Kalashnikov become "too big to fail", and such thinking always ends in miserable failure: no competition => stagnation => total cluster-F. At this point they should have just accepted complete failure of outdated Kalashnikov system and simply switch to 5,45-chambered AR-15.
The Kalashnikov company has 70 years of working with the AK. They know exactly how an AK works, and they can make a shitload of them at the drop of a hat. Those are all very persuasive reasons to make use of the AK framework. Would Armalite ever stop using the Stoner system, if the situation were reversed? Almost certainly not. The real reason why this looks horrendous is because they're trying to sell it to people who want an AR-15, but might be convinced by an AK with some extra wrapping paper.
@@TheFanatical1 even Chinese dropped that ancient design. And Chinese army is the largest army of the world, so the costs of switching to new assault rifle are astronomically high. Only countries that still use AK are either too poor to switch (like DPRK) or too stupid (like Russia). There is no single reason for AK to be in modern army, and AK-12 failure definitely proved it.
@@jamesoprey6330 The Kalashnikov design is fundamentally very sound, and the Chinese rifle is not actually better than a well-made Kalashnikov, as is quite obvious from the videos Ian has done on it. China did not switch from a Kalashnikov design because they found a better design, they switched because they wanted a domestic design and then said "this is better".
I feel like some variation of this would work as a rate reducer/locking device for a smaller weapon, like a simpler alternative to the plunging weight in the grip of the CZ-61.
14:56
I don't know why, but I thoroughly appreciate the footage of the muzzle device being casually wrenched back on.
Have a great week 4th view
I think the Ukraine War has shown that Russia NEVER had quality control.....
Absolutely phenomenal job summarizing this rifle at the end. I am somewhat of an amateur collector of firearms as well, with an emphasis on pieces like this. I only have 2 criteria for a firearm to meet for it to land on my list: It must solve a real problem with firearms in a clever way AND it must be well thought out. It doesn't even have to work all that well. The AK-107 definitely comes close to ticking both those boxes, though, I think it probably could have been thought out a bit better and could have some of the components combined or removed entirely. Nevertheless, this is exactly the kind of thing I enjoy seeing on this channel; here's a common problem and a non-standard attempt at solving it.
Yet another great video Ian, lovely to see a rather unusual weapon like this ..... so basically this is less of a "recoilless" rifle & more a "recoil less" rifle but with most of that "LESS" being caused by the muzzle break & less by the counter-balance system. An interesting approach (sadly flawed) as you point out. Would a system such as this (beefed up) work better on a larger calibre weapon system such as 7.62mm or 9mm ?????
Sorry if these comments & question seem "stupid", I'm from the UK and so have no actual experience of "live fire" firearms.
But I love your videos & the information contained.
Please keep it up Ian.
I think Elbonia did a trial run with AK 107. Fascinating stuff. Cheers!
What a great way to start August!
I’ve been waiting for this video for years and now that I’ve seen it all it did was break my heart.💔💔💔
Very well explained thank you
Another great video, Ian!:)-John in Texas
Por cierto.
Fantástico canal.
Gracias por tu trabajo.🙂👍
So many good features that should be on the military ak, for example the bolt catch and release, the disassembly method with either a pin or a lever like this one that will secure top cover in place, option to switch sides of the charging handle
Thanks for the great content, interesting system.
Thank you Ian !
Thanks for being a engineering Nerd. love the content.
Very interesting Ian 👌
Thanks Ian!! Cool Stuff!