The Myth of Imperial Navy Technological Superiority
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2024
- The Galactic Empire prides itself in having one of the most powerful and advanced military forces in galactic history. Were here to explain why that is very unlikely.
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People think "military grade" means the best you can get. It doesn't. It means the cheapest you can get with it still functioning, sometimes. Maybe. Now and again.
Lowest bid contractor.
Depends on the Military actually. I think we can all agree that US Military Grade is far superior to Russian Military Grade.
It means that it meets the requirements of the contract it was procured under.
@@animeman8203the m16 was iniatilly a failure. 80 years old aks works like dream. You can tell them reds all you want but they sure know how to make them weapons.
@robertnelson4460 not even that in most cases. It normally falls short in at least one, often more ways, and is still used because it is what is there. I will admit there are certain things that aren't skipped on to the same extent, largely with air power and naval boats. But most things are the cheapest they can get, while still allowing it to work. It is not a standard of quality. It really can't be, not if you have a military of any significant size anyway.
The thing about the Empire is that they were fighting a Rebellion that was mostly usin' antiques. The LAAT, the Y-Wing, the ARC-170, the H-60, and the Z-95 Headhunter, while versatile, were obsolete. It wasn't until they got their hands on the X-Wing, the A-Wing, and the B-Wing that the Rebellion was able to do any serious damage. The TIE Fighter, on the other hand, was the Zero of the Star Wars universe: it could outperform most fighters at the time it was introduced but lost its edge as better fighters ended up being mass produced. The Star Destroyer, while a step back, was the result of doctrinal change: the Empire expected its navy to be able to end wars with a quick show of force.
I completely agree with you.
I also think the ISD was made for suppression of local systems through intimidation and was designed for planetary bombardment with its turbo lasers and TIE bombers followed up with its organic troop component.
@@Emperorvalse The ISDs were Antiques of their own. They were built at the end of the Clone Wars to deal with numerous amounts of CIS ships. Since 1 Venator could not take down 2 Munificent class dreadnoughts without sustaining a questionable degree of damage.
America that’s the show yhr force
And this was why Thrawn advocated for the Empire to field more advanced TIE Fighters, like the TIE Defender, which could, in the hands of a capable pilot, deal with X-Wings, A-Wings, B-Wings and whatever else the Rebels had in their arsenal.
I love the comparison of the tie fighter to the zero, both were infamous for turning into a ball of fire when hit
Perhaps the reason the Empire didn't advocate for planetary defense forces was because they feared that they could be utilized as separate unique planetary militias fighting with a home field advantage in what could end up being hundreds of tiny wars against the Imperials.
Yep, pretty much.
They'd do what other tyrants do. Restrict ammo for frontier forces giving only enough to resist an attack long enough for central forces to reinforce. But not enough for a rebellion to resist central forces.
When frontiers in rebellion can resupply without imperial support they can rebel successfully. That's what happened to Rome. But its wealth originated in the frontier. So when the frontier resisted payment Rome fell.
most likely munitions would have been produced in the outer rim @@dpsamu2000
@@dpsamu2000"Sorry Sir, we've spent lots of ammo in training and rehearsals, please give us more. We're not stockpiling. Pinky promise :)"
For an empire, the most valuable currency is control. A uniform force that can be shuffled around at will, answers directly and solely to central authority and has no sympathies to local populace is vastly preferable to a more cost efficient local defense force made up of local populace, from emperor's perspective.
Palpatine talking to the designers of the Imperial Star Destroyer: "No, it must be POINTY!"
That's actually almost the only thing they got right. The ideal shape of any large space combat vessel should be a tetrahedron of some sort.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 It's not a tetrahedron. It's a squished pyramid.
@stcredzero I said "almost". They got closer than anything else has.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 Okay, I'll grant close. Actually, it could also be seen as 2 tetrahedrons.
@@stcredzero One of few actual flaws of ISD was the hangar. It is because original Tector class was designed as Battlecruiseer (in navy sense). Designed to fight with enemy capital ships in skirmishes. With fighter escort provided by smaller Gladiator class, what was not meant to participate in direct combat.
Problem was that Clone Wars ended, before they enter service. With only smaller Victory (what was direct fallow up to Acclimator Assault Ship) participating in Battle over Coruscant (they swept CIS navy almost exactly after scene in movie and cartoon end).
Anyway. That meant that Tactor was not needed anymore. But empire need something more multi-purpose what could do more colonial supervision duty. Because design was almost finished and capable. They scrap Gladiator entirely (beside few ships what were already build) and relocated hangar to hull of Tector also giving it Assault Ship role (and a massive structural venerability).
As such weird hybrid was created, what in theory could do everything, but neither could do particularly well or for rational cost. Though it was a decent ship if used in close to intended role. It is why Thrawn was still using them. Empire was basically like five year old who send Battleship after random pirates.
The empire out there specialising planets like a Stellaris player.
not just planets whole sectors. i at least hope i am not the only one reforming sectors, reassigning planets and mass assigning governers for the respective roles the sector/plantes have to serve
@@deathtrooper7760How do you do that? I thought sectors are now automatically generated around the sector capital.
@@Michi-vg2kk you can manually adjust them, adding and removing systems. you should be able to do that from the sctor capital planet interface. they reintroduced this option with astral planes or some time around it. it came at the same time as the option to instal planetary goveners ontop of the sector ones. I used it primarly to min max the mineral and alloy output from former machine worlds i conqured.
Stellaris rewards specialization because planet-to-planet transport is essentially free and each planet can easily produce just one thing, importing all the rest. In SW it can be inferred that inter-sector transit is likewise very cheap.
The Imperial Navy was geared for big targets but, they forgot the painful lessons of the GAR: don't ignore a well directed fighter squadron or two.
That isn't what the Clone Wars taught, though.
I’ll disagree with you VERY slightly. It’s geared towards appearing a big target that’s too big to assault but the second you figure out how to take one down they’re finished
@@Historyandlegends789 This isn't even vaguely accurate, though.
@@Historyandlegends789 that is another thing, they wanted to project fear but left openings.
The _Imperial_-class was built to win the fleet combats of the Clone Wars, and we have every indication they would have done exactly that. Anything short of the _Providence_-class dreadnoughts would have been immediately run over, and even they couldn't go toe to toe with an ISD. The thing is, ISDs weren't fighting the Clone Wars, and nothing was trying to go toe to toe with them.
Sorry Alan but I feel the need to correct you on a point. The Chinese Navy has not surpassed the US Navy in terms of total ship tonnage, but rather in terms of numbers. In 2022 China’s Navy is recorded at 2,400,000 tonnes vs the US Navy at 4,635,628 tonnes. The important thing to take away is that the US isn’t counting every canoe and kayak as a naval vessel to artificially inflate its numbers compared to the well established US fleets.
I'm glad someone else caught this👍
And China keep these ships in the range of their anti-surface/anti-air umbrella. While US ships are scattered by handfuls.
Came to say this. The tonnage gap is enormous.
@@Anon33467 yes. But also those China's small ships are anti-ship missiles armed ones who doesn't need waste tonnage for fuel, accommodation and food/spares stores, unlike US's.
Yeah, USA has super carriers...and China has military aerodromes, and anti-missile batteries, and anti-ship/surface missiles batteries, anti-air missile batteries, coverage of radars, and etc., and etc., while on the land in their homeland.
Their Navies are built for different tasks. US's is for projection of force, China's for annihilation of hostiles near China.
@@AKUJIVALDO that is irrelevant to my post
Let's not forget that Thrawn recognized the deficiency in the Imperial Navy assets and pushed his TIE Defender program, which had shields, hyperdrive, and heavy weaponary unlike the typical TIE fighter. Unfortunately for the empire, Palpatine put all his eggs in one basket the Death Star.
Vader did the same and arguably have more success (while Defender was amazing, it was prohibitively expansive). Problem was that Emperor has its pet Death Star program, what siphoned all money.
LOL TIE FIGHTAR AM NO SHELDS.
How much did shields matter in A New Hope again? Go on, I'm waiting.
@zephyr8072 If the TIE fighters that chased Luke had sheilds, they would be able to take the shots from The Millennium Falcon and maybe kill Luke, preventing the Death Star from exploding.
@@zephyr8072 It depend. A-Wing pilots commonly remove shields to get better performance. But basic TIE was straight obsolete, being overrun by a bombers! Generally they were equivalents of Z-95 and slightly better then V-Wing.
Using Squadrons (game) as example. A-Wing and Interceptor pairing is accurate. A-Wing has token shield and was faster. When Interceptor has better weapons and was more agile. BUT!
Actual equivalent of X-Wing during that period was TIE/AG Aggressor. What was way more capable TIE variant, with missiles (LN has none!) and turret. While it didn't have a shield, turret could easily compensate this flaw. They use LN in game only for nostalgia reason, as it simply could not compete with X-wing.
Tie Bomber was straight obsolete! It was designed only for ground attack and it could not effectively attack target in space. Its use in the game is for the nostalgia reasons (at least Y-Wing was still useful, especially with after market modifications). What Should be in the game is TIE/CA Punisher (Interdictor in Legends) What have massively upgunned weapon platform. What could in fact deliver massive punishment to anything in space and in fact did have potent shield!
I remind that both are in new canon and were used in that period!
@@StevenRamos248 As side note. TIE/LN variants from Vader Fist, were actually heavily upgraded. They in fact did have shields and hyper-drives, as they were part of Advance Program. Though of course they were not as good as later dedicated variants. Kylo use one of those fighters. So it was not a plot hole.
I learn more about economics and politics from Generation Tech than I do from my actual college
Count yourself fortunate.
@@TheGoddamnBacon how bad?
Depends on what you’re doing in college and what your media diet consists of but there’s plenty of people on CZcams who approach things in the world from a material analysis/ political pov
Should watch TIKhistory, or the Foundation for Economic Education "FEE." TIKhistory's critics often mock him by saying "Stick to Tanks" he replies by "Stick to Banks." Because economics is often the driving force for national decisions like wars etc.
Allen loves this stuff. A true nerd
Tofu dregs buildings, tofu dregs star destroyers.
Did you mean Luke could just sneezed and destroyed the Galactic empire?
@@ashipthattriestobotheryou4759 Typically you wouldn't expect a couple of fighter proton torpedoes to completely obliterate a small moon, yet here we are.
Considering the TIE fighter was developed in the early years of the Empire, it is almost as antiquated as the newest Clone Wars starfighters.
12:22 Um actually, icebreakers use nuclear because it means that they don’t have to have marine diesel shipped to them for resupplies. They can use other means of getting water (distilleries) and get food shipped via helicopter.
🤓
My father and uncle were first generation Nuclear Navy employees at Newport News Shipbuilding. Rickover hand picked at least many of employees at both NN and Groton, CT for initial construction duties, down to the welders, fitters, molders, etc. Several cousins and myself were 2nd Gen. 4th Gen of my family are now employees. Its exacting work and one underrated aspect is the high degree of quality control Rickover insisted upon, from reactor containment structures to the enlisted personnel heads. My father grumbled about Rickover’s hyper attention to detail, but he was overseeing the creation of not just new vessels but a culture of high expectations.
The Empire would have been a force to be reckoned with if it hadn't been ruled by the Sith. A lot of the dysfunction was due to so many unqualified but loyal members in very important positions.
The Empire was already the largest and most powerful military force in the history of the galaxy, lul.
@@papapalps2415lasted 20 years comparing to the other empires he is right if palpatine wasn’t hell bent on people fearing him it woulda been greater
@@papapalps2415and I doubt it was Valkorion Empire was far more powerful if only he didn’t decide on fighting both sith n Jedi
@@karltimmer3261 The Empire lasted 'only' 20 years because Palpatine was killed at the eleventh hour in a last second betrayal by his right hand man/the literal Chosen One in a moment prophesied about for millenia, and was likely THE single most significant event in galactic history as a whole. Trying to dismiss all the context behind it is cute, but it isn't going to work.
As for the Eternal Empire; you are, factually, wrong. The number of statements declaring the Galactic Empire was the largest and most powerful military force are likely somewhere in the double digits. If you wish to prove otherwise, then you will be doing so.
Hubris destroys.
I've toured and and have done business at NPN Ship Yard. Even got the "blindfolded" escort to a top secret area once. At the time the Gerald R. Ford was being manufactured and parts of it were moving into the drydock. Crazy impressive.
Inb4 china tries to get in contact with you after seeing this comment, opsec finna go crazy
One small correction. The Gerald R. Ford has 2 nuclear reactors working in tandem
Technically the Death Star was a two of a kind project XD
Well, without the first Death Star, the second would have also been a long-term project. All of the supply lines and R&D already existed from the first. That's how in three years one could practically operational.
Palpatine is a sith. They dont do well in a position of leadership. They do well in taking leadership, but once they get it they always fail at keeping it. Its ironic...
And that is because writers write that way. After all, you can't make more books or movies when the literal super-human takes power in the biggest and most powerful star state in reality. Nothing can stop him/her anymore...unless some BS excuses are involved.
@@AKUJIVALDO Yes, but even in this vision a sense of excessive supposed omnipotence is losing them. They become overconfident.
@@janmos5178 except only overconfidence of Palps was for some "unknown" reason(AKA author's BS) believing that Vader will always do his bidding, going so far as to kill his son...after going off the rails to protect Padme...his son's mother. Yeah...
So in the end it is always author's BS.
@@AKUJIVALDO The idea that Palpatine had 'no reason' to be arrogant in regards to the control he had over Vader, despite the fact that Vader was an obedient dog that obeyed his every whim, knowingly or unknowingly, for literally almost his entire life, and has been specifically cultivated and conditioned by him for most of said life to be said loyal attack dog, to the point Vader willingly betrayed all of his morals and principles to save his life, is hysterically funny. Palpatine made one, singular mistake in the entire franchise, and it was trusting he had enough control over Vader to keep him in line for the few seconds it would take to fry the boy. Big whoop.
Hello there Generation tech, I just want you to know your one of my favorite long time Star Wars CZcams channels and I appreciate all the things you do
I second this ❤
General Kenobi
I'm pretty sure that is not the reason why icebreakers have nuclear reactors, it's for the power to break through the ice and the power to run the ship even if they are stuck in the ice. Legally if a company overloads it's ships reactor on purpose they would be in a huge amount of trouble. My father was part of the Defense Atomic Support Agency which later became the Department of Energy and started as the Manhattan Project and I can guarantee you that.
I wouldn't necessarily call the arming of civilian ships to be a new strategy. European nations used to press merchant vessels into their navies during times of war up until the 18th-19th century.
Personally I can't imagine that that strategy would work well in this day and age. The sailors might have training on the weapons but they won't necessarily have military training and discipline. So during a real engagement they might be more hindrance than help.
Actually, that was still done in WW1 and WW2, to provide convoy excorts.
Armed merchant vessels have been a thing since wind powered navy
Nobody said that the reclaimed ships need to be manned by their original crews. It's a better idea to fill them with navy seamen
Was 'the icebreaker nuclear reactors are designed to overload so the crew doesn't starve to death (and they can kill themselves quickly) if they get stuck' a joke?
lol!
I love the thumbnail photo. The cutaway pics never convey just how big or how many decks a ship that large would have filled with personnel and various spaces.
The TIE Fighter was perhaps the most egregious example of the Navy’s misplaced priorities that led to stagnation & finally defeat.
The lack of even basic shields ensured a future where very few experienced pilots would survive to train the new recruits or go on to become aces. It also encapsulated the Empire’s arrogant belief that it could somehow endlessly absorb losses in the event of a true conflict, a belief the Rebellion soon proved to be gravely mistaken.
By contrast, the Rebel’s resource & pilot scarcity saw them prioritize keeping said fighters & pilots alive as best they could. This simple strategy based in pragmatism truly paid off in the long term as, unlike their Imperial counterparts, a mistake wasn’t always fatal & could be built upon to grow them into a seasoned veteran.
A great example of this is Wedge Antilles. Had he lacked shields during the Death Star trench run, Vader’s shots would likely have destroyed rather than damaged him. Instead, he survived & went on to become the Alliance’s top pilot who caused immeasurable damage to the Empire simply because he had the ability to survive a mistake his Imperial counterparts could not.
Who knows how many Wedge Antilles might have risen through the Empire’s ranks & had the chance to distinguish themselves only to have their potential prematurely snuffed out simply because the Empire didn’t place their survival at a higher priority?
"....and finally defeat..."
Fighter quality, or lack thereof, isn't what defeated the Empire, though. I urge you to actually consider watching ROTJ, it really is quite good.
"The lack of even basic shields ensured a future where very few experienced pilots would survive to train..."
This is nonsense, though, because based off literally almost every piece of visual media in existence, fighter-grade shielding doesn't seem to meaningfully affect survival in combat, nor does this make much of any sense regardless, seeing how the Empire was primarily built for internal policing and peace keeping enforcement. Very, very few pilots would see much combat regardless. And from an alternate perspective; what TIE pilots DO survive heavy combat (even if the idea that being unshielded=TEEHH SUCCKKZZ was entertained) are going to be god-like, and easily relative to even the Rebel's best. Which is...hm, uh, exactly what we see in ANH? UH-OH.
"It also encapsulated the Empire's arrogant belief that it could somehow endlessly absord losses in the event if a true conflict..."
Fucking lul what? I don't even know where to start here. Should it be that the idea that the pre-Endor Galactic Civil War being a 'true conflict' is fucking delusonally insane and utterly detached from the source material? Or the idea that the Empire COULDNT absorb whatever relatively miniscule losses it usually took? Or perhaps most amusingly, that the Empire COULDNT take the loss of a few fucking TIE's, despite heing a government that can shit out planet vaporizing battlemoons in total secrecy?
"Had he lacked shields during the Death Star trench run, Vader's shots likely would have destroyed him..."
So have you just never watched ANH, or...?
I see it as one of those problems that the Empire could never solve without not being an empire: imperial doctrine demanded TIE pilots be dependent on their home ship, otherwise rebel pilots could easily defect and fly away with them if they had the ability to work independently.
@@oscaranderson5719 Something the empire could have done if they wanted was have small "carrier" transports without all the long term facilities, like an upscaled transport ring for an entire squadron. I think Star Wars Rebels showed some cases of the empire fielding less than an ISD. The loss of apparently difficult to train crew & pilots seems a bigger oversight though if they had to fight a full scale war.
@@SyncViews they could, and smaller ships did exist, but the smaller they made them the easier it would be for a crew to defect with them. the nebulon-b actually did have a hangar to deploy fighters and it got nicked constantly.
ah, not to say your assessment isn’t correct- I 100% agree with it- I just see it as realistic that an evil empire would jump to the obvious short-term solution when facing an insurgency.
I love your content and nuanced approach to all these deep, socio-political issues. I never fail to learn something or see a new point of view when I watch your videos. Thanks for being you 🙂🙂🙂
The issue with the Outer Rim was one that could be solved with a tax break. Basically give a small tax break to all citizens who have children and they can get this break over and over again with each child. You will see a population EXPLOSION in the Outer Rim and with the now big and heavy population you can recruit a defense force, build industry and more.
This a literal child's solution to economic, infrastructural and societal issues. Like, I geniunely think this is an idea I recall being floated by teenagers back in high school during group projects. Although amusingly, it also seems to be a policy of many third world countries in RL. Which shows what I am saying wonderfully, lmfao.
@@papapalps2415 Fair enough those are not my fields of expertise.
Now do you actually have any suggestions or possible answers to the massive issue of a low population across a massive area that makes the building of infrastructure and the defense of said infrastructure nearly impossible due to it having not nearly enough people?
If you're here to throw shit, well bullseye, I know pretty much nothing about these sorts of things because I find the language and people typically involved in these fields aggravating at a deeply fundamental level.
Now do you actually have something constructive to say or can your contribution be summarized as "Lol ur dum!" and nothing else? Any suggestions as to how the issue of The Outer Rims may be solved?
Just like that libertarian town that got overrun by bears?
The issue of the Outer Rim would be broken by improving land infrastructure and communications. Together with work programs, affirmation programs especially on local administration and specialized education tailored to the Outer Rim's world
The benefits will come in a long time. But it will be great. The programs are meant to make every citizen more productive through expertise that is tailored to their home planets' specialty
The Outer Rim problem is not a population problem, its a produtivity problem
@@naoyanaraharjo4693 Nah. Again, it's far more complicated than 'just build infrastructure lul'. There's any countless number of powers in the galaxy, and the Rim, with a vested interest in keeping the status quo. SW very much operates like a feudal society in some aspects, namely in the massive power of certain noble families/houses, as well as the corporations. To say nothing of the Hutts, naturally.
As someone who's worked on vessels that were built in a Chinese shipyard I pity any crew who finds themselves fighting a war in one.
This is the only channel I watch every video ( since COVID) as they come out. You're awesome and both my wife and I love the lore, humor and perspective you put in your videos. Thank you Alan, please keep them coming!
You’re more likely to use all your fuel before your food on a ship. I served on a class of ship that carried 60-70 thousand litres of fuel and about 8 weeks of food (maybe 10 if you were rationed). Now we could plod along for 8 weeks at 6-8 knots on one engine and one generator. But if we went full noise in secure mode we could use our fuel in less than 72 hours
Having a reactor just means you don’t need to refuel at any point during a voyage
If you have fuel on an ice breaker you’re gonna be ok, they’re large ships with plenty of dry and frozen food that they could ration their way outta trouble. Plus having power means you can constantly make your own water with RO plants (or possibly distilling it)
But you wouldn’t ever purposely meltdown your reactor
This is what I love about this channel, it breaks down everything to where you can understand it and applies real world scenarios to it. Keep it up, Generation Tech.
Can you please make a separate channel where you talk about world history? I got so interested in what you had to say about the United States military. Listening to you makes me want to learn more about history.
Great video I love how you make videos about this and real world relation.
Quantity is a quality in as of itself, but the theory neatly ties up the mystery of how the imperials were suddenly able to leapfrog republic design in a galaxy with millennia of technological stagnation.
_just as a clarification a millennium is a thousand years and "the galaxy" meaning a system of stars, stellar remnants and gases bound together by gravity, not the entire universe_
Ordinarily i'd credit people as being familiar with such basic foundational concepts in a space based setting, but recent social media experience has shown me that star wars fans have trouble with that.
Have not seen this channel since 2019. Good to see your still cranking them out.
Almost there bro. Watching this channel grow over the years has been awesome
The Chinese navy absolutely doesn’t have more tonnage than the USN. They have more hulls, but there’s no amount of crab boats that is worth a carrier
The Empire did come out with a great variety of ships, a startling amount in such a short time really, and was able to make a lot in a lot of varieties, not just one.
The Rebellion/New Republic on the other hand struggled badly in creating and fielding fighters and capital ships and resorted more often than not to Imperial designed ships well into the Vong war and beyond.
Very interesting video and delivery. Thanks.
It's pretty curious that the main reason Palpatine became obsessed with improving the military forces of the Empire was because he was aware of the Yuuzhan Vong menace and wanted to be prepared for the inevitable invasion. That said, even though the imperials were truly powerful, there's no way they could have won without the help of the Jedi
Stormtroopers lost to teddy bears with sticks and stones of course they could not fight those aliens alone.
@@redenginnerGod I fucking hate this fanbase so much. So much blatant misinformation passed off as factual, so many random, half-recalled, butchered quotes taken out context, and so many little gems like this; wherein a quote from a sarcastic Han is passed down like holy gospel and spread via the grapevine like this, whilst ACTUAL GODDAMN QUOTES wherein Imperials and the Vong themselves admit that the Empire would have obliterated them had it been a few decades early mysteriously never appear in the collective imagination.
@@rapatacush3Watch ROTJ ploz.
This entire post is literal nonsense, though. The Empire wasn't preparing for the Vong explictly; this is based on nothing but fanon presumptions, and Imperial apologia. And per everybody from Imperials, the Vong themselves, and basic common sense, we literally know the Empire would have won against the Vong with ease, Jedi or not.
@@redenginner sounds like something Han would have said
another problem that you didnt really touch on: the Empire was basically broke in the early days, it was why Paltpy was nationalizing everything so hard. remember, the Clone Wars drained the Old Republic coffers dry, just as it was designed to, but that also means that when the Republic was dissolved to form the Empire it inherited the same problem. Palpy literally had no money to pay for anything, so what he could not nationalize he generally just stole from the rightful owners...
This was excellent! Well researched and scripted. I thoroughly loved it. Well done and thank you.
Great cideo.Keep doing what you are doing , its never been more relevant.
Damn, that intro is so intelligent and thoughtful--there's always a bargain to be made, there's always a price to be paid even to be dictator. This whole video is crazy smart! You talking about China reminds me of organizing my Roman Empire in Total War: Rome II, where you basically have "sectors"...had a crap economy until I spent many years and 10s of thousands of gold to specialize each area, then I was UNSTOPPABLE. Love the US/China comparison and the plus and minus of both systems...and how that ties into the SW universe.
What i find funny about emprie is that during clone wars they were already at age of carriers.
And the granpa palps says screw it and goes back to battleships.
It's like modern navy deciding to abandon carriers and air superiority to go back to lumbering battleships cause they look cooler.
And the outcome being as you would expect, battleships being sunk by enemy with air superiority.
Because star wars puts an over emphasis on the capabilities of star fighters, which against large cruisers like an ISD lack the weapons to deal any meaningful damage. Even proton torpedoes lack penetration power, we can see the damage one does when it is shot from red leader and fails to go into the thermal exhaust port. It only causes superficial surface damage and this is supposed to be a fighters anti ship weapon, which mind you it's intended targets again are not cruisers but smaller corvettes and frigates. Fact of the matter is that unless a fighter is specifically equipped to deal with heavily armored and shield targets it is not going to be effective against large cruisers, only against other fighters, corvettes and frigates. The ISD is literally the pinnacle of ship of the line design philosophy having significant firepower, 60 turbo lasers and 60 ion cannons, a large complement of craft, 48 TIE ln fighters 12 TIE bombers and 12 TIE rc recon fighters, and the durability to go toe to toe with nearly any other cruiser scale ship and come out on top. Same cannot be said of the venator.
@@colinbielat8558 and it still can't shoot down bunch of fighters and gets bullied by rebels with nothing more than corvetes and a skyscrapper with engines bolted to it.
This is same lvl of stupid as WW2 battleship being sunk by somalian pirates.
And if you are going to use this battle as a reference for fighters anti ship capabilities I would like to remind you that 5min earlier SSD got destroyed by some random dude ramming it with a fighter, even concentrating forward firepower did not help.
@@xzardas541 rouge one is one of the worst star wars movies ever made, people only like it for the Vader hallway scene. Anything in that movie should even be brought up in any arguments. 120 guns on an ISD will put up a wall of fire that will either completely vaporizer a fighter or fry its electronics and focing them to continue on their trajectory until they crash into something or die from lack of oxygen.
@@colinbielat8558 I was referencing original trilogy but sure, whatever you say.
@@xzardas541we see many times that Star Destroyers had the accuracy to hit smaller targets, even though the millennium falcon was more bigger than an X-wing, the hit;miss ratio was actually pretty good, so really I’d say hitting an enemy fighter each 8 shots or so isn’t a stretch, and also what happened at endor was pure storytelling nonsense
China didn’t pass the US and overall tonnage of their navy. They passed the US and the total number of ships in the water. The US still dwarfs the Chinese Navy in total tonnage. With 4.5 million tonnes, the US has more than double that of China.
Yup. We ahve about 12 carriers. China has only 4 max
Thank you for finally giving a decisive answer to the question of "Can (insert Star Trek ship) win a fight against a Star Destroyer?". Given the available evidence, I'd say the answer is a resounding "Yes".
If a icebreaker is stuck in the ice, they just overload the reactor to die more humanely? In the middle of the Arctic Ocean?
On the topic of Newport News Aircraft Carriers, something to think about is that while there are few ships being made, they are being consistently made. With no production gaps, expertise is retained. In addition, congress usually has bought two ships at a time to reduce unit costs. Maybe the Empire should build two Death Stars for cost reduction
Dayum. I was NOT expecting a lesson on economics, government spending, and military doctrines from this vid. Thank you.
I love how all this analysis is so indepth and well curated and written and really what it boils down to is the fact that is highlighting poor world building by Lucas et al!!?
Man I love the thought that goes into these videos!
This was a very nice 😊 video I like 👍 it you always do a good job on these videos. Also I love ❤️ you Star Wars videos and your explanations you make about real life you are very good at that have a good Day Allen.
Great video and I agree 100%!
Very interesting perspective.
To quote Obi Wan: "Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." This seems fitting when comparing republic era anything, especially ships vs the empire!
19:50 The Empire did plenty of the stuff you mentioned, but they just tied it to their own establishments in return. In return for social reforms, better education, housing and wages, people had to work for the Empire, either directly or indirectly.
it's important to remember the Imperial military wasn't created to fight symmetrical wars the way the Republic military was. the TIE fighter being low cost but low performance is fine when you consider it wasn't designed to come up against things like X-Wings but pirate ships and un- or lightly-armed freighters. sure when they came up against a more or less equal military force they were found wanting, but that's not what it was designed for
same thing with the stormtroopers. elite compared to most Imperial soldiers but nothing against well-trained and combat-hardened Rebel soldiers. but they weren't intended to fight other soldiers
Pulling information out of your arse; we see that Stormtroopers were Elite forces not just compared to “other troops” and we also see that TIE Fighters were able to outclass X-wings in dogfights, low performance my ass
Awesome video.
Best star wars vids on the tube by far 🙏
*Laughs in Mid-Rim Retreat, when the Imperial navy sent the Alliance running to the Outer Rim after a big Alliance offensive.*
This channel is slowly turning into space Perun power points and I’m all for it
us has tonnage advantage on china they have numbers
Yeah and most of China’s numbers advantage is fishing boats with guns on the front.
Thank you for that insightful diatribe and I mean that in a good way. This should be required watching for Canada's Government.
Good film.
"Droid fighters"...you mean...drones...(?)...hmm...
Oh, and modern nuclear powered carriers actually have 3 (Three) redundant nuclear power plants
That point about the icebreaker reacator being a suicide button? x for doubt. Source?
You know the more you look at the empire the more you see George’s analogy to the US in the vietnam war
You missed that the Ewoks were furry Vietcong?
@@jonharrison9222 no not that but I meant more the parallels between the empire and the US
I chuckled when you showed the F35, while you said when you don't have to compete you stagnate.
The F-35 program is slated to replace 3 aircraft programs (the F-16, F/A-18, and A-10) in the US military alone, for less than the combined cost of those programs, while adding stealth and datalink capabilities. It is the most advanced combat aircraft ever invented.
You want to see stagnation, go ask China how their knockoffs are doing.
Also?
That aircraft at 6:50 is not the F-35, but the F-22 - the first 5th-gen fighter, the previous title-holder for most advanced combat aircraft ever invented, and probably still the best dogfighter ever produced.
The empire's major flaw was the fact that it was trying to keep its military from being able to rebel. The fighters were not hyperspace capable and the capital ships were only meant for line of sight combat, everything was compartmentalized to prevent defections thereby rebels would be nervous about killing the innocent crew that did not want to be there and the like. This complete lack of trust lead to a fleet that was operational crippled when compared to other fleets like the GRA or CIS
Just a small nitpick at 17:00 early on the empire actually used V-wings before they switched to TIE fighters, and the V-wings had hyperdrive which made the Imperial slightly more viable
The UK has just built two super carriers.
The chinese navy has an advantage in the number of ships, not tonnage.
Very interesting video as always.
The advantage of the Star Destroyer using turbolasers ment they wouldn't run out of ammo. But it also meant most of their hull was used up by anti matter reactors.
They don't use anti-matter.
I can see some commercial uses for the death star. You could use it for mining - destroying a planet so that the valuable chunks are easier to transport. Also, if you had two death stars, you could use them to measure gravity waves.
How government departmental economics work... "We need to waste as much money as possible so it gets used up, otherwise they'll cut our budget next review."
Imagine how much better Vader’s Suit could had been if the Emperor gave a ****** about technological development.
Well Palpatine was more focused on maintaining control then ruling the galaxy well. Letting planets maintain their own local security would have been cheaper and more effective but you could not expect them to follow orders like strip mine the planet or enslave the locals which he often wanted to do. Honestly most Sith enjoy the misery of others which is why they make bad rulers. And because the quality of Imperial ships and often personal was so poor the rebel alilence and others could often defeat the Empire in small scale battles that added up over time and led to their downfall.
Agree.
In would argue that the Empire overspecialised, Star destroyers and TIE fighters might have been useful in a straight fight against another power, but they were always too large for anti piracy operations.
Great for suppressing and securing planets in full rebellion, but not for tracking down and eliminating a small number of pirates or rebels that avoided focusing their forces in that way.
Very interesting video! The comparison of the economies of Galactic Empire and the USA becomes especially apt when you remember how anti-Vietnam War the original film is.
I feel like you're forgetting that empire started in amazing position. Whole galaxy was ravaged by war, a lot of planets were barely hanging military wise as they were either mainly dependent on clone army or just lost whole army when droids has been deactivated.
Empire could go cheap but effective because they were by far the biggest player. And their army was actively siphoning military able people from planets, so no one really was left to fight wars. Only people able to afford things that could give Tie Fighters run for their money were gangs and crime lords, and those usually weren't exactly interested in owning whole planets, at least not officially.
Advanced maybe. quality maybe. Hit hard and painful definitely. The tech hasnt advanced much but it has become somewhat more efficient and powerful or output more power
well the empire did have advanced tech arguably one of the most advanced in all of star wars history while deathstar is one but there are many other the problem is that when it comes to dealing with the avrage soldiers but they did see this problem and later did try to improve the avrage gear and ship both in legends and cannon like the dark trooper project
the star destroyer was advanced but wasnt suited for fighting against fighters like xwings it was more suited against capital ships so they should have had more venitor like capital ships which is mutch better to deal with fighters which is what they needed against the rebels
The Dark Trooper project was originally in the old EU. And it was better developed there.
@@dylandarnell3657 i know i used it as an example of the empire trying to improve their quality in this case the troopers
"When droid fighters start strafing your apartment you are going to completely change your priorities in life and how you vote... all you care about is security"
Yeah, that right there sums up Palpatine's final steps in his rise to power. He centralized all power in the galaxy around Coruscant. Then, he made Coruscant afraid. Then, he took control of it. Wham, bam, suddenly he's the man.
Love how Alan fixed the outer rim issue in like 15 seconds lol
My man casually be turning into the Lazerpig from far far away
Speaking of The Empire, I also think that the stormtroopers air support (TIE fighters) could’ve kept the Republic V-Wing, but just slap some grey paint and the Solar panels on the wings, and get rid of the astromech, and you have a superior Tie Fighter
The V-wing was not in anyway superior to the TIE Fighters besides from having a small number of concussion missiles.
Otherwise, the TIE Fighter completely outclassed it in Speed, Maneuverability, Laser Cannon firepower, and Targeting Systems.
Late comment, but I hope you see this, Alan.
WHAT IF... the Empire did produce the Star Destroyers and TIE Fighters, but NEVER phased out the Venators and Clone Troopers? What if they mixed it all together instead. Clone Trooper program is scaled down but kept working due to the training and efficiency of clone troopers, and Venators are grouped with a single ISD, like say, 1 ISD in the Corellian Sector, and it has command of 2-4 Venators. The TIE line is all equipped with light shields and a low rangehyperdrive, but they also retain their V wings, and the Venators are refitted to handle large amounts of the TIE Line.
Feel free to rework the events of the Bad Batch a bit, which shows us how the Empire steadily removed every trade of the Old Republic even in it's first few years, the Senate being the LAST remnant of the Old Republic to be swept away.
About a third of the way into the video the word paper tiger appeared in my head before you said it at the end
The problem with the TIE fighter is the pilot. The fighter is bare-bones efficiency, the pilot is an elite graduate of one of the most Empire's most prestigious education systems, the Imperial Academy. If the TIE were an autonomous drone ship, it would be perfect.
Agreed, if there were a lot more AI ran fighter ships with the main ship controlling them, it would've saved a lot more personal. Sadly the star wars galaxy has had a few robot rebellions in the past and hates using AI for complex things. Using personal for controlling ships is a tried and true functionality, but lacking in innovation. I believe there was a Legends story where a whole space station was run by an AI and was WAY more effective then being ran by people in terms of defense.
I love this
The Empire's approach to military arrangement was reminiscent of Tokugawa Japan, in that they were trying to prioritize loyalty above efficiency. By disbanding the local defense forces, and assigning task groups from the main Imperial Navy to rotate through various sectors, it prevented the military from becoming more attached to the sector than to the Empire as a whole. That way, if they decided to re-specialize a given system against the will of the inhabitants, there was very little chance that the sector fleet would side with the locals.
There were also a few cruisers that had reactors but they were too expensive and were decommissioned. If thorium reactors are developed, they could probably be small enough to make this feasible again.
Dudes, and gals, there is a damn giant Venator Class Star Destroyer graveyard??! Zats Mega disrespectful to those splendid warships damnitt.
P.S.
Extremely glorious and educational video as always.
Its a very interesting situation where, one can be so determined to do away with everything from an era you despise for traumatic reasons, governmental reasons or what not, that you are unable to see the little truths to be found therein that could greatly aid thee in the direction ye wish to go. A mighty scroll right there.
12:26 …noted 💡✍🏿
I feel like the empire was always destined to fail and fall from day one.
The new Republic should have had a Republic rapid response fleet, supported by a superstar destroyer, that can go anywhere in the Galaxy to deal with major threats and support local defence fleets...
And a separate anti pirate fleet in the outer rim well supported on outer rim worlds
There's a myth that the Imperial Navy is technologically superior? Maybe it's just having grown up on games like Rogue Squadron, but my understanding ever since I was a child was that the Empire has inferior ships to the Rebellion (a TIE fighter for example can't stand up against an X-Wing unless there's a massive advantage in pilot skill on the part of the TIE), they just have a near-overwhelming numerical advantage (which is why the Rebellion mostly limited itself to surgical strikes and hit-and-run attacks).
Nice
Overload the reactor of the Icebreaker if you stuck in ice...
I did not see this coming :D
I once wrote a short story (for my own amusement) where a full mutany took place on a Venator. The pilots were ordered to attack civilian targets and the entire compliment "jumped" away... The Emperor decided immediately to remove jump drives from small ships and move to a Capital ships for greater command and control.