Operation Barbarossa - The German Plans to Lose the War - WW2 Special
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- The planning for Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, took nearly a year and went through a variety of scenarios. The basic plan was finalized in December 1940, and that month General Friedrich Paulus ran a series of war games to test its feasibility. Today we'll look at his conclusions.
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Written and Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson, Bodo Rittenauer
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Yeah how could anyone dare offend Big Brother CZcams...
Pretty sure that link goes nowhere...
Have you tried switching some sentences in the text around?
@@SergeantAradir Can't access timeghost website at all.
Wow, we've got a live one here...
The more I hear about the subject the more the question goes from “Why the Germans failed” to “How did they even manage to get that far”
It's my perception that they 'got that far' because in contrast to the seasoned German Army, the Red Army (except in the Far East) was at peacetime strength, significantly lacked trained and/or experienced officers/NCOs because of the purge and expansion, was in the middle of reorganization after the Winter War (the new rifle division TO&E was dated April '41), lacked the trained specialists and equipment which allow combined arms to function effectively, lacked vehicles to tow artillery (tractors were to be appropriated from the locals), a lot of the AFV lacked both maintenance and effective means of tactical communication, and the Germans pretty much seized control of the air on day one which not only allowed disruption of supplies and reinforcements, but also lifted the fog of battle for the Germans via aerial recon. As fate had it, the Germans picked the 'opportune moment' to attack.
Russia always trades land and then wins on attrition. Russian generals always retreat to Moscow line and by that time the enemy wants to go home. Napoleon even captured Moscow and still lost on attrition.
Prof. David Staehl has conducted all the modern research on Operation Barbarossa, you should read his book.
@@stevebarrett9357 It was less an opportune moment and more of the soviets just not doing anything about it. They had done nothing to prepare for an invasion despite the military buildup on their border. There were also several other signs that were simply ignored. Honestly the Germans kind of deserved to win at that point but as always when fighting Russia... you have to think ahead. Like...a lot ahead. And follow logistics. Which the Germans did none of.
I do not agree that the soviets had done nothing. They had substantial forces (at least on paper) stationed in the three special military districts. With the loss of the proponents of offensive warfare from the purges, Svechin's strategy of defensive attrition seems evident in their order of battle with mechanized forces further back from the border to launch counterattacks. In the first half of June, the Soviets were moving more divisions into this area from other military districts to form new armies as a second echelon on the Dvina-Dnepr line. The 1939 TOE for the rifle division was simply unrealizable as a tactical formation so the Soviets created a new TOE in 1940 which gave way to yet another in 1941 to make the rifle division more streamlined and viable from lessons learned in the Winter War. They had abolished the 'large' tank formations in 1939, then tried to recreate new ones in 1940 to duplicate what the Germans had and stationed many of them in the west. They were also attempting to move the elements of the Stalin line on the old Polish border to the new Curzon line border. It's my perception that the Soviets were doing a great deal to prepare. Of all the opponents the Wehrmacht faced prior to 1942, the Red Army was the weakest because of the reasons I mentioned previously, but it was large enough to stave off the complete disaster and loss of will to fight that afflicted other countries Germany had fought up to that time.
So...
Important Person makes Plan
Important Person tells Underling to study Plan
Underling says Plan is flawed
Important Person ignores Underling
Plan turns out to be flawed
Seems oddly familiar, doesn't it.
You're supposed to agree with me and then take the fall when it goes awry!
Honestly, you can't find good help these days...
Arrogance? Germans? No!
And: Important person blames underling for failure
Important Person has to flee to Argentina.
Imagine being able to predict problems of shortcomings before the war, doing an arguably good job during the war and then being seen as a very bad general for many years after the war, while your Boss made many more mistakes and goes to the US to write down the history of the eastern front. Big yikes.
A by-product of the Cold War. Paulus was captured and a prisoner in the USSR, then lived in East Germany. Whereas Halder gave his version of events to American and British military personnel and later historians.
@André Luis And dem winterz
Well, Paulus was a excellent staff General, that fact that he took over the 6th army after Reichenau was promoted (and also died in a heartattack soon after) was a waste of a good staff general that was not used to command troops, the highest amount of men Paulus had commanded before the 6th army was a battalion. The 6th army could have used a more experienced commander but hindsight is 20/20. A more experienced commander of the 6th army might have not helped anyways, being tied down to what Hitler ordered. I agree with your statement though, Halder got to chance to write himself in a better light, Halder was also probably helped after the war by how his relationship with Hitler soured during the war, and him getting arrested by the gestapo.
@@Broheim1 From all I have read on Stalingrad an also from TIKs Battlestorm Series I do not see too many errors of Paulus honestly. The one thing he always got criticized for the most is basically surviving the war, from a military point of view one can not really argue against his decisions without using hindsight and dismissing certain restrictions, plausible consequences or other factors.
Luckily the perceptions of many parts of WW2 are now changing though. Because similar things occurred all over the place.
This is a great example of how "winners write history" is stupid. Not Even close to true
Halder: plan good you bad
Paulus: your plan sucks
4 years after ww2
Halder: Paulus bad very bad me good
Seems like some of the German senior officers did not abide by the old axiom, "Amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics."
To be fair logistics had not played a huge role in the war so far. When fighting in France and Greece the Wehrmacht had been pretty close to its sources of supply and the roads were excellent. Logistics only start becoming a problem when there is a great distance or an obstacle like the Channel or the Mediterranien between the forces and their supply-source. So the german officers up to that point never really had to worry about supply - and being used to the well maintained and extensive roads in Europe some of them probably couldn't imagine that there were countries were the roads were few and not even usable during the rainy times.
@@gildor8866 So, basically, they weren't using their famous German brains.
@@gildor8866 But they had just gone through the Balkans and had Road and Rail issues. Did they think it would be better in Russia?
@@ellsworth1956 The "just" part is the problem here, the war in the balkans was only two months before barbarossa started. Not enough time for the experiences to be properly analyzed and incoperated into the battleplan. And delaying Barbarossa was not an option because of road-conditions. Also the problems encountered Balkans were not on the same scale as they would be in russia.
Pretty much. People usually underestimate how much the Wehrmacht and its leadership actually bought into the same ideology as the more hardline Nazi-organisations. "Triumph of the will", the idea that any obstacle can be overcome with sufficient determination, was a central tenet and it came from the militarism that was widespread in German society and the ideology of the Freikorps that rampaged through the country after WW1.
Are you guys ever going to do an episode about food that the soldiers ate during World War II?
I also want to see the food
That would be awesome
Yes. And how did it differ from the vel fed Americans to the Japanese or the Chinese
During Stalingrad, enemy air.
I want to eat their food
Germans:the soviets won't retreat beyond dnieper- dvina river,they would protect the production centre
The soviets:*Retreat beyond that river,and move their production centre all the way to urals.
Germans: scheibe
Same thing I was thinking
LOOOOOOOOOOOL
Reality is, the Soviets DID fight west of the Dvina-Dniepr line and most of their forces here were destroyed. Only remnants escaped. It went all according to the plan. What the Germans didn't forsee was the 7+ million soldiers the Soviets mobilized in 1941 on top of the 5,5 millions the Red Army already had in June.
Germans: *surprised pikachu face*
@@RouGeZH What they also didn't foresee that the Red Army soldiers would put up a bitter fight and actually destroy loads of German manpower and equipment even before the winter came.
Would really enjoy watching Indy and crew cover the Napoleonic Wars in this format.
Lets get this to top comment
Coalition Wars 1792 - 1815 by week by week....
@@Knihti1 they can do month by month
@@Knihti1 Will be the longest running CZcams thing probably
They should cover the Seven Years War, which many see as a practice 1st World War due battles across several continents
So Operation Barbarossa was in fact just a huge experiment to test how accurate their war games were. Impressive!
underrated comment
@@buddermonger2000 *Inteligent no?*
@@canthi109 quite
"field" studies
"We have to fight without remorse or quarter."
"Why are they resisting so hard?"
Paulus playing Hearts of Iron 0.001.
A real fool, haha, he knew they would lose and commanded the defeat
@@freefall9832 Did you watch the video? He concluded that victory was highly unlikely.
@@ivvan497 exactly
Haha, awesome, you made my day XD
And yet he only gets to be a level 1 general in HOI4.
I'm sure Paulus's completely accurate warnings in the face of leadership that doesn't want what he says to be true will have absolutely no bad consequences for him during the Barbarossa operations ...
Paulus was a good, perhaps even superb staff officer. As a field commander he was not up to much.
@@stevekaczynski3793 That is rather harsh. He was asked to do the impossible.
As we say in German: "It can not be what must not be."
Admitting that the invasion is impossible is not an option.
@@jamestheotherone742 Yes, but there are indications he was overly influenced by some of his subordinate generals, and also lacked any ability to stand up to Hitler. My perception of Paulus is he was intelligent, visible in his work as a staff officer, but lacked strength of character.
@@stevekaczynski3793 A major general does not "stand up to Hitler". He doesn't even do that to his commanders, he salutes smartly and obeys or else he finds himself out of a job or worse. Paulus had a hell of a lot more of the good kind of character than most of his fellow officers.
Has the WW2 team considered doing a special on the IJA/IJN rivalry? It’s hard to overstate just how dysfunctional their relationship was.
I think that will come later when Japan does a thing that shall not be named not to spoil and their navy becomes way more important
Rn they need to focus on army
@@ArenBerberian Maybe they'll have a bigger role in the future, like fighting the Soviets with the Germans?
You mean as to why the Japanese Army built 20 submarines? That rivalry has it's origins in Japan's 600 year long series of civil wars.
@@Gronk79 It's not just submarines. The IJA operated aircraft carriers and air wings independent of the IJN. Not to mention they spent the 1930's bickering who gets to be in power and how much monry they get annually...
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Everyone knows a Navy is more strategically important
Sounds like Paulus looked at a map with distance markers. While Halder imagined kilometers as meters.
Stalingrad was just a couple of inches away… on the map
Very intresting. I always tell my friends that the german invasion of Russia was a major problem for the logistics for them. They don't agree with me and say it was the winter because the Germans invaded in the winter. At that point I don't even know what to say. But I digress, good video keep up the good work.
The famous winter of June-July 1941
Can't blame em cuz most documentaries conclude it was General Winter that stopped the Germans, though they aren't entirely wrong since Rasputitsa was one of the catalysts for the logistic problems for the Germans.
Both the Frenchs in 1812 and the Germans in 1941 invaded in the middle of the summer for the explicit purpose of avoiding the winter
Soviet will be defeated by November. Christmas at the latest.
Well they are partially right and wrong. Yes the winter was brutal in 41 and the Germans did not anticipate fighting the war into the winter so winter equipment was never issued to the soldiers. But at the same time, German logistics were subpar at best, as the reliance on foot and horses drastically slowed the rate of supplies reaching the front.
That title didn't leave much to the imagination. It's still July 1941 - we don't know how this is going to pan out!
This isn't part of the real time recounting of the WW2. This is a special retrospective showing that Barbarosa was doomed to fail from the start. This give Indy and company the ability to compare and contrast what was planned versus what actually happened in the upcoming weeks of the war. Plus it's not like nobody knows how it turned out, no spoiler warnings needed.
@@ryanmedina5090 who knows? maybe the Germans will find a way to win.
@@ziggytheassassin5835 only if they reach the AA line or maybe not even
@@morisco56 Germany will win but will later get pushed out by the West Russian Revolutionary Front
@@ryanmedina5090 Of course I know that. It's a joke.
It would be interesting to see a special episode on the exact nature of wargames belligerent nations used, and the conclusions these nations drew from them. For example, I recall reading of Soviet wargames where Zhukov, playing as the Germans, actually achieved greater success than Germans did historically and Stalin wanting to avoid this outcome is one of the reasons for so much unprepared forces being committed during the early stages of the war. Or that tactical wargames being used to figure out German u-boat wolf pack tactics were a major contributor to Allied victory in the Battle of the Atlantic.
The channel Invicta has quite a few videos on wargaming if you're interested.
@@hebl47 I had previously seen their video on US Navy College wargaming facilities but didn't know there was more. Thanks for suggestion.
Intresting, is there any link for those who want to read ore? :)
Part of the interest is seeing wargaming that was just plain wrong. Gamelin had for years been regularly wargaming a German invasion - including through the Ardennes. His games told him they could never do it in enough speed and concentration to force the Meuse before their defeat on the Dyle exposed their flank ..
And IJN's wargame of Midway went poorly (they lost 2 carriers right off the bat) until a referee overruled the die roll.
Friedrich Paulus was no scarecrow. He rose to high rank on Merit and adequately commanded his forces in battle. Now we know how elaborately he gamed the scenario predicting the outcome of Operation Barbarossa.
ya
you know, it’s really hard to find new information about ww2. im a huge history nerd and i often feel like i’ve seen and heard all the material there is. but your insight into the war games and planning of barbarossa was a true revelation! so much new info! thank you for sharing !!!!!
i often find a lot of the planning information for the war, strategy and so on, is often under reported. any more info on this would be greatly appreciated !!
@ROSEGOLD I really like his work and I’m sure you would also like that of mark Felton
Yeah, I'm going to have to second checking out Mark Felton Productions.
Guy is probably the best source for interesting historical coverage of WW2...
yes mark felton! of course i know of him! he’s definitely an incredible source of unseen ww2 stuff. you should watch his video on “ hitlers speaking voice”. turns out not much footage exists of hitler speaking normally , not yelling or exaggerating. this video has great new insight ! there’s a small clip of adolfo actually smiling and laughing while addressing some troops and a delegation. mind boggling and jarring. this devil was also human.
I would be wary about using Mark Felton for education. I used to enjoy his videos too but I found out that he’s not as accurate or truthful as he should be. Here’s a post I found outlining some of the issues with his content involving plagiarism of entire scripts and lack of fact checking.
Mark Felton Productions Plagiarizes Some of His Videos, Historical Inaccuracies and All
I know these posts about CZcamsrs often get very heated with fans often rushing to defend the subject of them. Knowing this I want to start by saying I don't have it out for Mark Felton, I'm not a fan of his content and have seen enough inaccuracies come out of his video mill to decide they're not for me, but I don't want to "take him down" or anything like that. If people like his stuff and still do after reading this more power to you. But all of us on here want to see good accurate historical works being put out into the world and want to consume the same, and before anyone goes and assumes everything he puts out is accurate, they should at least understand what they're getting into before they take what he says at face value.
So I don’t know if this is something too many people are aware of, but popular CZcams channel “Mark Felton Productions” has stolen at least three of his scripts for his videos almost verbatim from other authors on forums. Some of you may be familiar with his video “The Tiger Tank That Wouldn’t Die” where he puts Tiger 231 from heavy Tank Battalion 503 at Kursk and claims it’s engagement where it survived over 200 hits happened there. It didn’t, it's not well enough known but the village where this happened was about 200km away from Kursk at Ssemernikovo on the outskirts of Rostov-on-Don on 11 February. Heavy Battalion 503's records survived the war and have been published, the actual report by Leutnant Zabel (easy to find if searched for) that he reads mentions where it happened and he didn’t bother to check if this was anywhere near Kursk or if the date lined up with the battle. Because pretty much everything involving an early war Tiger is attributed to Kursk and every picture of the famous peppered tiger is captioned Kursk, when I saw this video I wasn't surprised at this being mistakenly repeated, and although really lazy for a “Professional Historian”, I let it go and moved on with life noting to avoid the channel in the future. A few months later though in a Facebook group I'm in with some German armor enthusiasts and historians I trust, this video came up and they claimed the whole thing was stolen almost line for line from an Axis History Forum post they saw a few years ago that they remembered specifically because it had the exact same mistakes (A post by . I didn't really pay it much mind because the tank does have it’s story repeated incorrectly placing it at Kursk often by sources that often look really reliable, but then I ran into this. Apparently he's done this before, and after some digging out of curiosity, he apparently has another video titled “Panzer Unit Still Serving After German Defeat - Denmark 1945” the bulk of the script was lifted from yet another blog post. (source 1) Another of his German armor videos “Jagdtiger Ambush - Ardennes 1944” is completely incorrect as well, there were no Jagdtigers in the Ardennes, and although I haven’t seen any evidence of direct theft like I have for the other two, given the pattern I would bet all his Patreon earnings he stole that too. The same stories in history are covered by a lot of people, but I'm beginning to understand how he makes videos so fast. Unlike real authors who credit other authors and sources they use to create their work, he just finds posts, articles, etc and lifts them with minimal changes and adds footage. In some of the posts and comments I've seen talking about him doing this, they also mention that many of the photos he uses in his videos are lifted right from the articles as well, many coming from the author’s private collections, showing where the rarer visuals for videos come from. Normally I wouldn't worry about this kind of thing with a CZcamsr, it's very lazy, especially for someone who takes every opportunity in the descriptions of all his pages to remind you that he is a published historian with his books being turned into movies and has appeared in multiple documentaries. But it’s exactly that part of it that bothers me. He’s convinced half a million subscribers that he is the most professional and trustworthy CZcams Historian currently making videos by mentioning his credentials. And that’s been the main argument I’ve seen from his fans as to why he is one of the better ones, that he has a PhD and is published. But PhD or not he’s a fraud, and now we know how he’s managed to be such a high output video factory, he steals his content and turns it into videos with half the work already done for him, that he doesn’t even bother to double check and see if it’s accurate. Certainly not every video is stolen, I’m sure most aren’t, but if he’s going to call himself a serious published historian, he should at least hold himself to the basic standard of reliability and not poaching other’s work, correct or incorrect as it may be.
These are the posts pointed to in the group “Tiger Tanks” on Facebook with many very knowledgeable members that drew my attention to this. Search “Mark Felton” in the group to go down the rabbit hole I did and if you don’t believe me go look for yourself and draw your own conclusion. They point out inaccuracies in many more videos than the three I mention here. Basically, most of his videos to do with German Armor have the same problem of repeating the propaganda ministry, and not the Historians studying the events. Specific source to the article stolen from below.
Article “Panzer Unit Still Serving After German Defeat - Denmark 1945” was stolen from: www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/copy-cat-mark-felton-productions-photos-and-articl-t319725.html?fbclid=IwAR00fOSOK9T46ra4BdmXHhCKTJ0tRjhlm0Qqc_f4r805ALxaXTUJczFcy94
Debunk of “Jagdtiger Ambush - Ardennes 1944”: www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/jagdtigers-in-the-bulge-mark-felton-did-it-again-t320547.html?fbclid=IwAR2idt8WVNmfX4r23pUmsJO7WwoZ35GSr1y6xFMQguW_X60FD_UdDBirtD0
By Reddit user u/Ostfront2wegondie2
Prof. David Staehl has completed changed the narrative on Operation Barbarossa, you need to read his books, this is where the video is sourcing its information from.
It's interesting to learn that not only many folks in the German chain of command were ideologically blinded (Just kick in the door and the whole structure will come crashing down.) but there were actually those who spoke up with strategic analysis backing their arguments.
The outcome was, that it is not possible to take Russia. But they all knew, they had to try anyway, because if there was a chance, then in 1941, when the Sowjet army was weakend by Stalins "cleanup" and they could be overwhelmed by surprise. Waiting would have made the Sowjets stronger and the inevitable would be even less promising for the sake of Germany.
why does indy keep implying that germany may lose the war, its virtually impossible at this point
I don't know till now they have not lost a single battle.
Surya prakash Actually, they had failed to win the Battle of Britain. That was crucial as it meant from that point onwards Germany were faced with having to fight on many fronts including having to defend against a relentless bombing campaign that was levelling its cities and industrial infrastructure.
@@dougie1943 Well doesn't matter, I'm sure Germany army will be at home by Christmas.
Not according to Hitler. He says he HAS to smash Russia before the US gets dragged into the war, as Germany does not have enough raw materials to outlast a US-Britain-Russia combination (I wonder if we will see that alliance in this war?).
There seems more than a hint of desperation about Barbarossa..
@@kenoliver8913 And then he declared war on USA when it hd been proven that Americans will only even declare war on Japan because Japan totally attacked American Hawaii first. Smart move, mein fujrer, real smart move.
And at the end of the day, Paulus was the most reasonable german general lol
That Paulus guy seems to know what he's doing. I'm sure his story ends well
For him personaly it ended just fine, not so much for his troops...
Well he did survive and outlive most of his colleagues, quite a feat under the circumstances.
“I won’t kill myself for that corporal” said Paulus.
Thanks for the history documentaries. It is puzzling that Franz Halder was not sent to prison for the balance of his life. Once again good on ya mates.
ya he was guilty
German Generals: “yeah, it looks pretty impossible”
Hitler: “great, lets do it”.
The miscalculation about how the Russians would react are also the cause for the defeat of Napoleon,his original plan for the invasion of Russia is to defeat the 1st Russian army under the command of Barclay de toly,while his southern army under the command of Eugene,his stepson,would pin the the Russian 2nd army under the command of Pyotr Bagration,after Napoleon destroy the Russian 1st army,he would swing south and destroy the Russian 2nd army.
His plan is on the assumption that the Russians won't retreat much further,because he thinks that the Russians wouldn't want to expose their cities such as Minsk,Vilnius,Smolensk and Moscow to destruction,He was wrong,in the end the Russians retreat as far as Moscow and using scorched earth policy, exposing the Grande armee into harsh summer ridden with desease, and stretching their supply lines,in the end the Russians decided to give battle at Borodino,despite tactically won that battle,it was a strategic loss to Napoleon,he loss a lot of his remaining soldier and officer at that battle and he didn't manage to destroy the Russian army,his original goals.
The Germans are basically doing the same,they underestimate the capability of the soviet union,their plan simply relied on the imminent collapse of the soviet union,they never thought that the soviet union would have the capability to move their industries to urals,they never thought that the soviets would be able to retreat and regroup.
Just like what indy said in the Great War channel, everything that can go wrong,will go wrong.
Germans also underestimated the speed of soviet mobilisation - in 1941 they formed something about 300 divisions, and troops were rapidly moving to the frontlines.
They didn't think .....
Personally, I think that Germany could've defeated the USSR, but the Nazi's couldn't. Remember, Imperial Germany defeated Russia, they forced her to cede large swathes of territory and knocked her out of the war, mainly due to internal strife. The problem is that the Nazi's had little intention of doing that. They sought to wipe out the Slavs entirely. This left them pushing millions of people who, otherwise would've been loyal allies, into the arms of the Soviets who they hated. I think a scenario where the Germans win is a war where they assert the independence of Ukraine, the Baltic States, Belarus, and the Caucusus such as Chechnya or Armenia. The USSR collapsed due to internal strife, as did the Russian Empire. Instead of utilizing that, the Germans purposefully gave the Soviets a cause they could rally all of their people behind, even those who hated them.
Its almost like invading an adversary with seemingly endless territory to retreat to isnt the smartest move
There was a comment made by a civilian in the USSR in an earlier video, where they were shocked that the Red Army's strategy is the same as that in the Napoleonic Wars. Retreat, scorched earth, and delay the invasion all the way back to Moscow, and exposing the civilians to the brutality of the invaders.
Paulus is really underrated general, only being remembered for Stalingrad.
Just on a side note these Operation Barbarossa videos have opened up my eyes. I always presumed it was plane sailing till the Germans got to Stalingrad and even if it was going badly for the germans, it would at least be a couple of months into the war and maybe with weather changes and not straight away.
True. For example, they mentioned in the last episode that German losses were already in excess of 100,000 not even a month into the operation. Even with the element of surprise, it really isn’t easy going.
It always appears easy after the fact. Looking at it in detail, you can see the Germans were giving it every bit of strength they had just to get to where they were and with many mishaps occurring along the way.
Pardon my perspective, as I understand that I am, rather, sophomoric in this regard; however, I believe that the focus on attacking and capturing major cities was the primary flaw in both Operations Sea Lion and Barbarossa. For Sea Lion, the Germans began attacking major cities, including London, instead of maintaining a concerted effort against strategic military targets such as radar bases, airfields, production facilities, etc., which allowed the British to maintain a high level of aerial strength and, ultimately, win the Battle of Britain. For Barbarossa, the focus should have been on securing the land leading to and including the Caucasus, allowing them to fully secure the oil fields, solidify supply lines, and construct closer airfields for aerial protection. Fully securing this area would have been incredibly devastating to the Soviet Union, greatly diminishing their capacity to launch and sustain major operations, and allowing the Germans to, then, focus on attacking and securing other strategic points, such as Leningrad and Moscow.
The focus on securing all three objectives at once greatly limited their capacity to secure either objective, culminating in their failure to complete and hold each area of operation. What is with this emphasis on capturing a capital or major city? Sure, it *_may_* constitute a demoralizing affect on the enemy, but as seen in the American War of 1812, the command and leadership structure simply moves to another area and continues to coordinate its military response. Nothing was achieved other than the bragging rights of being able to say, "we captured Washington and burned the White House." No, forces moved out of the area, reorganized, and prepared for a counterattack. Simply capturing a Capital serves no strategic value; this only occurs if you remove or greatly diminish the enemy's capacity to respond. This is what occurred following the strong commitment to capture Leningrad and Moscow, as the strategic value of securing the Balkans had not been fully achieved. This, in my estimation, is what doomed the operation from the beginning, but again, I'm just a random viewer learning as we go.
Great series! Been enjoying you guys for years. Keep up the great work!
This sounds so much like you're paraphrasing Sun Tsu here who said something along the lines of "It's best to attack the enemy strategy, then their alliances, then their troops in the field, then their cities. A direct attack on a city is wasteful." I agree with you by the way. Your plan could deprive the Soviet Union of lands that, as you put it 'greatly diminishing their capacity to launch and sustain major operations' that is, operations of strategic importance against allies of Germany and in turn, reduce the strategic options of the Soviet Union to zero. This would also secure vital resources for Germany. But they would fail in carrying it out, as this plan requires the establishment of a certain degree of political independence in the area's conquered. Even the occupation of Russia during WW1 is preferable than what the Third Reich did.
Finally, I am curious. Your 'capital' argument sounds similar to Eisenhowers argument not to drive on Berlin, don't you think?
I think you may be thinking about the Caucasus which the germans attempted to take in 1942. But I still disagree with your argument. Because of the distances in Russia and poor roads the only way to move forces at speed is by rail, the railways connects the major cities and as such you need to capture said cities to control the railways, plus that is where industry is concentrated. Ultimately in a land war the best way of distrupting an enemy's ability to attack is to capture the major cities or destroy the enemy as he tries to prevent you from doing that.
Ezine Anderson I am sure you are right in what you say, but bragging rights are the most important consideration of all
- in the CZcams comments section!
You are forgetting one thing..Capitals are historically the major industrial centres and communication hubs of a country..All the roads and railroads of the Soviet Union were connected to and at Moscow( it is even shown in the map of this video)..capturing it would severely cripple the ability of the Soviets to produce and transport everything..from food, oil to reinforcements. That's why, for example, Hitler divided Army Group South in 1942(because following the original plan to drive to Voronezh and then to the oilfields was a logistical impossibility) and capturing the Volga was so important at Fall Blau.
This is real life, not a Total War, Company of Heroes or Men of War game that you can march cross-country not caring about logistics, losing men to atrittion and ignoring roads/railroads.
@@sfugid and Moscow has in that time almost 50% all USSR industry, take Moscow, and USSR are crippled
That was one of the best reviews I've seen of the German plans/options for Barbarossa. General Guderian also pushed for a capture of Leningrad in 1941 with lesser objectives in the center and south. With Leningrad in their posession, the logistical constraints of the campaign would be reduced significantly since heavy shipping could be introduced directly to German supply depots set up in Leningrad.
Pretty much all of the Gary Grigsby (War in the East) PC game players agree with that Leningrad 1st strategy!
Of course this presumes that the Royal Navy and remains of the Soviet Navy just sit back and let that happen.
Look at a map of Russia. the distance to Moscow from Leningrad is the same as it is from Minsk.
Only part of the German problem was transportation, the other was supply, specifically of food and fuel. You get none of that from a Northern campaign. What was the point of the Russian adventure again?
Leningrad first throws out the possibility of a quick war that defeats the Red Army in the field and forces a capitulation.
I seem to recall in Guderian's Panzer Leader that he said he wanted Moscow and described having a meeting with Hitler to argue his point. Although forbidden to broach the subject by his superiors, he said he managed to anyway but was turned down by Hitler in favor of turning north with PzGr3 to help take Leningrad and South with PzGr2 to help take the Ukraine. I've never heard of or read where Guderian favored capturing Leningrad.
@@jamestheotherone742 the royal navy wouldn't be able to get to leningrad because not only will it have to go threwn Denmark but will have to pass alongside the german coastline. It will be destroyed. Leningrad seems like the best option because it allows for total Baltic domination and supply. Plus linking up with the fins
@@ivanvoronov3871 The RN didn't need to get to Leningrad, they just needed to deny the German's any shipping to it. The German's wouldn't dominate the Baltic, they would be trapped in it.
Hitler had to cajole Mannerheim to do anything more recapture their lost territory. They would not have contributed much.
LOL. The Pripet marshes.
"Get out of here Stalker!"
:D There had to be some old german veterans pricking their ears in the 1980s when they suddenly heard about Pripyat and Chernobyl again
Thank you for making a complex and dry issue like logistics interesting and understandable. This is a thorough historical enquiry that I am enjoying immensely. I can’t wait for each new episode so I ended up repeatedly checking CZcams for the next instalment. Brilliant.
A month into the invasion now and slowly resistance is building up
Goal of the north: encircle the Baltics and capture Leningrad
Goal of the South: get the resources in the Ukraine
Goal of the Centre: go as far east as possible
Let's see what happens
I've been reading about this war for 13 years now and still new things come up that surprise me.
Thank you man. I like your narration. Great lesson. Perfect AUDIO.
You provide deeper and more detailed knowledge than I ever saw before. Thank you.
Your tie's looking really good Indy, as for the episode ... EPIC as always
BTW nice cup on the right
Kursk, uh? I'm gonna remember that name...
Why? I don't think anything will happen there at all....nope nothing at all whatsoever!
Ah, probably just a small skirmish
Yeah, just a few tanks playing hide and seek, no big deal
wow, thank you for the video adding a whole new layer of strategic analysis. greatly appreciated.
Im loving the spin you guys on putting on Barbarossa. Usually is shown as the Germans pouncing through the Russians with no problems and it was only the winter that stopped them. You’ve clearly bursted that myth. I am Curious though on the Soviet perspective, as the episodes have mostly been concentrated on the Germans problems. Is it possible to show just how bad the situation is for the soviets as well, as you’ve already hinted at that their losses are out weighing their replacements.
Been watching Indy since 1915/2015 during the Great War.
Keep up the good work!
I really love how Indy maintain the atmosphere of not knowing what's gonna happen in the future. It sure allows for suspension of disbelief. What a f-ing awesome actor you are, Mr. Neidell!
The German generals were obsessed with Moscow. If only they considered that taking the capital won't necessarily stop the Soviets from fighting. This isn't the Fall of Constantinople.
Moscow was a strategically important point even if its political value is discounted. It was the economic, administrative, and transportation hub of the Soviet State. The loss of that, even if just encircled and besieged, would have crippled Stalin's war effort.
If anything the German's did not invest enough in taking it. They spread already too few forces into taking a broad front and in reducing all of the forces and cities along the way. They only had a narrow window of time in which to deliver the knock out blow they had planned, and they missed it because a conservative strategy was chosen. Or more accurately, the wrong risky plan was picked.
No, Halder was obsessed with Moscow and the rest fell in line, because he was too powerful at that time, to be opposed without great repercussions.
Hitler got convinced somehow and then backed Halder....
@@golem5809 Moscow, as stated, was important.
The USSR was a freshly industrialized, and thus highly centralised state.
Moscow was the absolute center of its rail network, and a major production hub.
Taking it was of paramount importance.
AMAZING WORK AS ALWAYS!
Absolutely quality video Indy... My compliments
This was excellent. The one thing that wasn't mentioned is oil, or fuel for the mechanized spearheads.
Also not mentioned is that 80 percent of the Ostheer was motorized infantry traveling east on foot with horse-drawn carts.
Oilfields were not the primary objective in 1941 as the Wehrmacht's requirements for it were relatively low (because most of it was horse drawn) and the Romanian ones were out of range for British bombers. They became the objective in 1942 and after of course as both of these changed.
To say that there is a lot going on with this tie would be quite the understatement... I'm going to give this one a 4/5
Absolutely love the content guys.
thank you for releasing this on my birthday. Thank you for your continuous work and dedication
Is it true that Adolf Hitler said, after finding out the Soviets had more tanks than initially thought, 'If I'd known that I wouldn't had invaded."? Great work, WWII. Wunderbar.
In a talk with the Finnish chief Mannerheim recorded without his knowledge he mentioned something of the sort.
That's a bold strategy cotton, let's see if it pays off for them
Really great episode about the pre planings of the invasion I had not heard of before
This Barbarossa specials are great... Keep up the good work
16 seconds from release (apparently) so the fastest I started watching a video from its release.
Extremely interesting to learn about the wargames! In effect you could argue that the war for the Germans was lost after the dec '40 conclusion by Paulus. Kinda ironic that he was the one defeated at Stalingrad.
He was given that assignment essentially as a punishment for being right, since the battle's outcome was largely already decided.
They had some very good analysts
Thank you for a comprehensive synopsis of all the planning that went into Operation Barbarossa. Although completely familiar with the final plan, I hadn't researched all the various submissions that had been presented. The more I hear and read of Paulus, the more my opinion of him changes, from the "simple" loser at Stalingrad. You guys are just so exhaustive in your research and subsequent framing of this epic conflict. There's just so much more to come....and your series just keeps getting better. Take this Monty Python quote as a supreme compliment. My brain hurts.
"Amateurs think tactic; professionals think logistics."
Said by a marine general.
Not only logistics, also politics and economics. Clausewitz dedicated not only over the half of "Vom Kriege" to logistics, but also teached that war is the continuation of politics with different means. Economics are needed to fund and produce what logistics have to feed to the army. So we have the three fundaments of war: politics, economics and logistics.
Different version: laymen study tactics, amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics.
1:18 wait wait wait wait. Was this guy's name really Feierabend? That is the best German name I have heard in my life xD
in German "Feierabend" is used with the meaning of "call it a day" (because it is no use to do ti or go on)
should have been the leitmotiv for the whole war
Excellent video.
Very nice work
Capture of Moscow wouldn't change much... Polish-Lithuanians did that in XVII century, then Napoleon did that in XIX century... In both situations fresh Russian armies came from inner territory....
The most valuable video on the barbarossa campaign without a doubt....also gives some insight as to why logistics is for the professionals....the perception of the German general staff is an enigma to me and always has been. If you consider the schlieffen plan in the great war and barbarossa in the second war....both serious strategic blunders because of logistics and underestimation of enemy resistance combined with an absence of contingency plans if something were to go wrong are mistakes that cannot be overrlooked... what if Manstein had not gotten Hitlers ear before operations in the west in 40 ..... I'm amazed how many still percieve the Prussian/ German high command
I'm aware of the objective of the operation but where is the alteration considering the russian mobilization and how that surprised the general staff ... where is the adaptation during the operation... it was also considered possible that Belgium would simply grant access and after a guarantee by Great Britain none the less... I'm not going to criticize them for the carnage it was unbelievable to all countries involved but I certainly think it was just a so called upgrade to what had worked in 1870 -71...mobilize faster win at the northeastern border encircle the southern armies CHECKMATE... Moltke lost his nerve and sent just enough forces to the east to guarantee failure....I agree it was a flawed plan but the high commands adjustment only accomplished the worst possible outcome for the Germans...I'm definitely not saying it was worse than the other major powers in planning or execution and I'll even acknowledge that the course of events happened at a pace which couldn't be foreseen without being called a pessimist at the time BUT why is it considered so superior to other powers even to this day...the evidence does not support this..That's my opinion of course but look at what the schlieffen plans goals were and compared to the true situation by the fall of 14 and can only be calculated as COMPLETE FAILURE...I will however concede that the mid level officer pool were the best in the war but definitely not the high command in either war...in my humble opinion of course and I can certainly respect your opinion if you disagree....I'm not discouraged if we have to agree to disagree in fact that's the beauty of military history and why I love these videos
@CommandoDude well I suppose we'll have opposing views..I'll just say that a limited tactical achievement is not success when you have compete strategic disaster
@CommandoDude I would if the plan is to knock them out of the war...the object of war is to win and a general staff is responsible for implementing a plan to achieve that result...1914 a complete disaster for the German empire considering the expectations compared to the results and as I said in my humble opinion the heavily overrated general staff and the Kaiser are responsible.....I couldn't disagree more with anyone who said it was the soldiers at the fronts fault for the lack of success
@CommandoDude so the German plan was to deploy an overwhelming amount of their forces to the west just to take the northeastern resource and industrial areas then redeploy forces to the east to fight a two front war of attrition ?? MY APOLOGIES EVERY BOOK IVE READ ON THE MATTER HAS MADE ME IGNORANT ( excellent plan)...I mentioned the Kaiser for political reasons which contributed a great deal to defeat and should not be overlooked
@CommandoDude I will agree the central powers had opportunities to win and without American intervention could quite possibly have gotten a favorable peace but those opportunities didn't come from great planning or strategy but rather incompetence by the entente....Which is my point of the comment ....you dont hear about the advantages given by the great French and British or Russian generals but somehow the German staff were this great asset that gave poor Germany who were surrounded by enemies trying to fight with less material and manpower the only ability to win..IM NOT BUYING IT
Just awsome. I knew a bit, but this provides so much insight and information.
9:47 for an Australian perspective:
Melbourne decides to Liberate Sydney for some reason by attacking down the highway.
The armoured forces are at Canbra and Goulburn, while the regular infantry trying to support them are trying to cross the murray into Albany
@The Colonel no, I'm seeing a bunch of people that don't care about getting others sick bringing down his government from interstate
"Damn it, all our strategies don't look like they will work!"
"Eh, scheiss drauf, we'll just improvise as we go."
I think that Paulus is so good so he definitely will win a war
I have to say, Indy, that your command of languages has really helped me learn the correct pronunciations of the names and places I have been mispronouncing for, what, 60 years now?
Sort of like watching someone who knows Elvish pronounce the word and names for Tolkien's universe I always mispronounce.
OUTSTANDING JOB INDY. THANK YOU TO CHANNEL DONORS.
Paulus is the Ned Stark of Germany. He will become very powerful towards the end of this series.
Whatever you do in life make sure you never invade Russia.
More like never invade Russia from Europe.
Brilliant video, as always
We're glad you like it!
Very interesting video. Many thanks
85% of the Wehrmacht divisions in WWII was on foot, using horse-drawn vehicle to tow their heavy stuff like artillery and supplies. During WWII the Wehrmacht used ca 2,7 million horses of which at least 30% would not survive the war. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II#Germany
its kinda amazing and also tragic that paulus, the man who (spoiler warning) will defeated in Stalingrad, pretty much knew that the Wehrmacht couldn't win.
I love the roll top desk ! behind !!
One of your best videos!
David Stahel has a great book about how Barbarossa failed.
Edit: How the hell did this comment caused a war in my comment section?
@@FriedrichBarb you sure?
@@FriedrichBarb Remove UK/ USA from the equation and Stalin conquers all of Europe after beating the Nazis
Kilroy They still would need to conquer the caucasus fast
czcams.com/video/25ACv_4Sj7Q/video.html
@@FriedrichBarb You forget that more Nazis died in the battle of Stalingrad alone than in all the battles of the Western front combined... And if you want to remove the United States and Britain from the equation, then remove the Nazi allies (Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, Croats, Slovaks, Finns, Iranians, Iraqis, Dutch, Norwegians, Flemings, Belgians, Danes, Austrians, Vichy French). Wake up. Germany has no chance alone against Russia.
Germany: Logistics, HUH?
Great video!
I am catching up on my ww2 videos but hey I got a little extra Indy in the morning on the drive back home. Great interview Indy on CBC radio about baseball cominf back this year.
sounds a lot like the "we make a hole and see what happens next" that ludendorf tried last time
Or what happens to the dog once it actually catches that car.
Well, they did make their hole. Turns out Russia is bigger than France.
the saying was "kick in the door and the whole building will crumble" this time - but the same theme anyway
my aunt and god-mother asked me what i was watching just now, so i said: "a documentary about ww2"
"what? where? how?"
"on youtube. these guys are uploading a video on every week of the war as it happened over 70 years ago."
"and about which front?
"all of them"
"how can they even live from this?"
"they have like half a million subscribers and there's patre - "
"oh but how do you even know if they're correct? they could tell you anything"
[i open the description]
"here they state some of the sources, others are directly in the vide -"
[aunt/godmother storms out of the room]
i guess it's still 1985 when the internet is still an evil unknown 🙄🙄🙄 old people amirite
"they could tell you anything", your aunt is wise. The probability of that is 50/50.
Kuracyja you took olga too literally, she was joking. of course a 50/50 ratio is horrible in almost every regard except maybe if someone survives a horrible accident or cancer
@Kuracyja Sources can be different, any event or process can be written about from opposite perspectives. Thousands of books have been written about inter-war and WWII. Which ones does TG use as a source? Certain information like dates, amount of military equipment, political rallies, and cardinal points doesn't typically cause contradictions,. Meanwhile, it's only human to slip into the habit of interpreting motives, reasonings, even certain details, and my favorite, telling you what a historic figure was thinking. So when it comes to interpretation then Onetwo Threefour 's aunt is absolutely correct "they can tell you anything".
@Kuracyja No disrespect to TG but the whole eastern front is biased. Simply because it's more of a german pov than anything else.
Understandable because of language barrier and the soviet archives not being free for all. But it's still biased to one side
Plenty of older viewers follow TG, don’t generalise entire age cohorts
great video
Top quality content. You did a great job, many thanks from France!
A month in and the Germans are nowhere near Moscow, Leningrad, or even Kiev.
*surprised Pikachu face*
Huh? Within a single week they were halfway to Moscow. In a month they had won an area double the size of their own country.
The Germans are making good progress a month in and have the Soviets completely unbalanced. This is still in the crucial period of the invasion, any prolonged pauses or diversion of effort would see the initiative and momentum slip away from them. Time and speed is the all essential factor here.
“Scorched Earth Policy OP pls nerf”-OKH and OKW
Edit: and they ignored the trucks and trains supplying their army, noobs.
I want that cup.
Considering that I always watch your episodes in the morning when I wake up on Saturday While I drink my coffee
same
It is interesting that Paulus came to the same conclusion about invading the USSR as did Admiral Yamamoto about a war with the United States and Great Britain: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
But HOI4 says! - Every 8 year old on Reddit
I'd be proud if 8 years old actually plays HOI4
Reddit is simply too immature to anything more that "memes“, they are a much of men child who just meet the internet
The good information is always the one hard to find
@@caorusso4926 visit askhistorians and come back.
@@CarrotConsumer a place that remove 90% of they content is simply too biased to even be consider a proper read.
The correct name at 6:45 would be "Staraya Russa". P.s. From Russia with love!
Marcks is the smart man who correctly predicted both LOCATION and TIME for the Normandy landings in 1944. (according to movie 'The Longest Day')/
Fascinating video.
Thank you.
☮
Thank you so much for your support!
@@WorldWarTwo Even to this day, you're still responding to comments in older videos❤. Who is it anwsering to this one? I am truly curious!
I always wondered what if the Germans had the knowledge about what will happen in the east... would they do something different? well it turned out that they had the knowledge.
No, France was way stronger than the Soviet Union and they beat them. They thought they were aryans and genetically superior to Slavs, they couldn’t comprehend losing a war, it’s like America couldn’t comprehend losing to Afghanistan.
@@user-fr2fm3ri3w Interesting comment and comparison. Just not sure about the "France stronger than the Soviet Union" part. By what metrics?
@@21stCenturyNomadGaming economy militarization generals army , also they were prepared and Britain mobilized its armies . Germans won by the sheer shock. Remember Britain and France owned pretty much half the world back then , literally. The Soviet Union barely was able to invade Finland, also Stalin had just finished a purge of his best generals and was meddling in the war making things worse. I am not saying Germany could have won , I’m saying it’s a miracle they got that far. And before you jump to call my anything I had literally members if my family die to nazis in Greece.
For those thinking it may be absurd to think the Soviets would be defeated in just 17 weeks, remember that Germany defeated every other country they invaded in weeks previously. Russia broke and gave up large amounts of territory in WWI and the Winter War showed the Red Army hadn't gotten that much more formidable. We look back on this and think it crazy the Germans thought they could accomplish this, but at the time the idea that Russia would break again was pretty common, not just among the Germans but with the British and Americans as well.
Russia fought for 3 years in WW1 and of course there is Napoleon's blunder. Obviously some thought it was going to be hard at evidenced by this video.
Yes the assumptions were based on poor intelligence. The Germans had no idea of the size of the Soviet armies and how many men they could bring up if they needed. Also they had no idea of the number of tanks and their productive capacity. They were warned that their logistics were good for 300 miles and after that there would be many problems. However their greatest blunder was assuming that the USSR soldiers were subhuman and the country would collapse in 12 to 16 weeks if the troops on the Weastern boarder were defeated.
@@CarrotConsumer France fought for 4 years and they were defeated in 6 weeks this time around. And the German effort was not comparable to Napoleon's. He only advanced on a narrow front and lost half his army to disease long before winter even his. The Germans had machines for supply (yes they used horses but still had trucks and planes) and attacked from the Baltic to Black Seas. Just saying "Napoleon, therefore impossible" is lazy and overlooks something that can't be measured by a straight comparison.
Paulus was right on at 8:56 they could have never reached it
Very good stuff
Ah, as usual here we have TimeGhost demolishing the Wehraboos's ideas that Germany was brilliant in every way, one video at a time!
How on earth did the germans get as far as they did?
Right i always wondered that, thay did impossible thay even had chance to win.
Soviets had more man, more tanks and better tanks in 1941, more resources, home territory, help from the allies and winter.
@@davornovosel2018 I guess the only thing the germans had on their side is the even worse planning of the soviets?
@@davornovosel2018 More men? Nope - the Germans and allies outnumbered the Russians in the west on invasion.
More tanks - yes. But remove 30% for bad maintenance or age. Better tanks - a few, but most were old or light tanks.
Help from Allies - only British until Dec 1941, and the first weapons did not arrive on the lines until around the battle for Moscow. And Russian cruder fuel clogged the few high performance Spitfire engines. The Russians did like the few Matilda's though.
@@The_Starfleet_Ensign thay had Stalin and communists, thay killed and replaced everything good Russians had, with party members. Plus probably very low moral of people and army in 1941 everybody saw Germans as liberators from Stalin, until SS started to killing innocent people and civilians.
@@tommy-er6hh Germany had only little tanks to. Best tank thay had was panzer 4 with short gun, thay put 75mm on panzer 4 letter in the war. Most of the tanks thay had was panzer 2 and 3.
Soviets had t-34 plus heavy tanks KV-1 AND 2
Germans had nothing to destroyed them, and enough Fuel for 2-3 months max.
The inability to grasp the concepts of time and distance. Americans and Canadians who have planned cross-country road trips know how long that takes, but Europeans who can easily drive across a couple countries in a day rarely can. My Russian history professor described to us a German officer's diary complaining how they'd travel across the Steppes all day to the next rise only to see another expanse of steppe to the next rise, day after day after day. He described the effects as being psychologically devastating on the Germans.
Acute observation, I’m surprised nobody responded in 3 years. Millions of Americans and Canadians can easily travel cross country.