Close Up Interview of Tom Holzel Discussing Mallory and Irvine and Other Topics
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- čas přidán 2. 02. 2021
- The section involving Mallory and Irvine starts at 8:30. Vito Cetta filmed this video in 2003. If you like this video, you will probably like this one as well: • Tom Holzel's Search fo...
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Absolutley incredible interview!!
This is a excellent interview, smart man , engages well in tough conversation
Fascinating to listen to this man. He's a great story-teller. Thanks for this video.
At 16:16, the reason he didn't get approval from China to be on the expedition has nothing to do with French pride. The Chinese do not want anyone up on the mountain investigating anything that might call into question their 1960 first-summit claim for that route.
Absolutely right! And wth that side being closed , 2020, 2021, 2022, and probably closed in 2023?Makes you wonder? If that drone footage found something, ( body ) and the Chinese, know about it, you can bet, its scoured ( cleaned) for sure, before the north side is opened!
Never heard of this man. What interesting background he has, and what great storyteller he is. I hope he’s still around.
Without Holzel's pushing the matter, the Mallory and Irvine story of the last ~ 50 years would have been vastly different. Hats off to him.
Amazing stories and how wonderful to hear you tell it in your own words. I love the sense of wonder and mystery and adventure. Thank you for sharing!
Fascinating man!
Wow... Great interview!
Great video. What a fascinating character
Oh, man. What a great listen. A nailbiter.. tough life. Vielen danke, freund!
Really interesting observation and investigation would like to know where young Irvine is to bring a close to this part of the history of climbing Everest. You can only admire their spirit and bravery in climbing Everest in those very early days. Great British spirit of adventure
Terrific!
I think they fell from the same rope. If two climbers are roped and one falls, the other will get pulled off on pretty much the same fall line. Irvine looked heavier, so he probably fell the longer distance and maybe over the first drop below George. It’s a pesky little thing that gravity is, even at that height. The only other scenario would be if Sandy gave his oxygen to George, claiming to be tired and waited at the bottom of the second step. I would follow the fall line from the slabs on the ridge down to and past Mallory. The camera may have fallen out of his vest pocket on the way down, 50-50 proposition.
Remember, they were using a cotton rope ... Compared to today's ropes, it would have been just about useless. Thx
Irvine being larger needed more oxygen to feed his body, and would have consumed it faster that smaller and nimble Mallory. Mallory must have been walking in front of Irvine leading him, but not noticing lack of oxygen must have been making his younger mate delirious and walk vaguely. If he would have been behind him he would have noticed Sandy's letting go off his piolet and pick it up and realize his state. Sandy was going too out off it. Also they went around the steps by the Norton lower route used by the expedition earlier, to the zig-zag cut to the pyramid or first step platform top under it. If Sandy lost footing and started rolling down the slope, George walking in front may not have noticed fast enough to stabilize his fall stopping it, before accelerating being heavier and getting dragged himself. Thus why the rope marks kinda torn on his rib cage...but these could been effect from the falling, once their rope got caught somewhere and the jerk it caused at faster speed stop, where they dangled until it snapped who knows how long after, when both were just dead weight and their corpses just kept rolling. Neither was alive to cut it. It wasn't cut, and it wasn't just cotton as so many people are ill informed on how pro-climbers have been doing their expeditions since the 1840's, long decades before the Everest team they were part, carefully chosen with what best equipment was available in the Age. These people were World class climbers of the best few dozens in the World, not matched until decades after by many more. Many keep liking (prefer even) putting them even lower down AS IF Amateurs, lol just because their sports clubs were socially part of Gents clubs, and these are imagined to have been just for playing Golfers used only to walk on greens venturing in side trips as Himalayas, imagining perversely or naively that those seriously dedicated and experienced alpinists didn't know what they were doing or could use and what was useless. Their clothes, however fully organic except rubber products were of the best quality for the rough climate and their ropes had silk thread in. I would have personally used lighter and warmer Kashmere for clothing or at least some inner layers, but this one gets wet easier and dries slower than oily tweed as they used. There has been a documentary made where 2 modern climbers tested old equipment replicas those Mountaineers used before synthetic materials became better manufactured and capable short before 1960, and they went up to high altitudes climb over the tree line and all Life-zone and found them to be not just pretty viable in comparison but quite comfortable on function, with even physical advantage of move, being thinner. Somebody even put into question Mallory's skills on climbing the second step [they had no need, they went under around below] not knowing the features of the mountains Mallory had climbed before were as tough as any free-climbers walls used for practice Today. It's incredible to believe the arrogance of modern high tech experts that may believe they have become better fencers, acrobats or climbers just because tech or computer analysis to see how these things get done and see rooms for improvements. Many modern runners and their high tech coaches themselves looking for gold medals and prizes, may not be even aware of the World records that without a doubt must have remained anonymously done, by many in centuries earlier when people were more natural, healthier and living almost "savagely". Even Bodybuilders or power lifters don't get in their peak to the median average of strength of our human cousins, the Neanderthals had in one forearm, or even to that of the first Cromagnon's that we came to live near them. Without the bulk, just like an skinnier Orangutan arm may trick you and those pumping up as to be less strong than theirs. Older Humans' bones density and muscle estimated needed for traction alone or in repose, proves they would have outperformed easier any pumped up lifters and gold medalist of the last decades. Healthier specimens pays. Most modern "improvements" have been done too with synthetic dopes, which the body of one genetically fit for better than average results, becomes harmed by after short term performance changes inflicted. The arrogance deep in ignorance of the modern "sportsmen" to consider all things past were worst, dumber and useless
Irvine would have not fallen because of the Rope burns and jerk marks on Mallory. It had tension and snapped. It probably caused Irvine to be slightly injured and he sat down and died
@@pendragonU I agree. I surmise Mallory ( the most experienced) was in the lead. If their air tanks were empty on the trek down both men would experience a drunken type walk, being oxygen deprived. If Irvine fell first naturally his mass would cause the rope burns on Mallory. Now who knows how long Irvine may have dangled at the end of the rope possibly frying the rope on sharp rocks before it gave way. Very plausible after Irvine fell Mallory may have tried to get to him thus falling himself . This is my theory , it may not be correct but it is plausible since no one can say differently with any accuracy.
If both fell, whose body did Wang see at 8100 m? Holzel seems to be a very interesting person, and his only "mistake" was to talk about a Russian and Eastern front in WWII for the Germans. A single statistic shows how tough things were on the Russian side. From June 22, 1941, to June 6, 1944 - both dates well known to all "students" of WWII in Europe - 85% of all German losses in material and men, was on the Eastern Front.
Hi man, i saw a video.from a guy that participated on the search from irvine recently and he said at base camp that chineses came to remove all bodies before Olympics. Do.you think that is posible? Tks Alex
I would love to hear the mechanics of the newer O2 system you invented. Is it still used today, 2022?
Why does the rope thing makes him think that they didn't make it ? What is the connection ?
Peters work is how we all know when and where Mallory’s body was discovered, yet Anker takes the credit! Are any teams going to search for Sandy in 2022? Might their camera even be near Mallory or Irvine, being flung terribly far afield, buried under tons of rubble.
As far as I know the Chinese found the camera and his body many years ago. I just listend to and interview of a climber who took up his crew to find him, of course they couldn’t. But he is just about sure that they have it. They supposedly put it up for show in a museum. He made contact with some Chinese climbers and asked them for an personal interview but by then corona hit and they shut down the airports. So, look it up. It’s very interesting to listen to him. Sorry i forgot his name but just do a google check
You spelt "rubble" wrong" sir.👍
Top climbers are extraordinary selfish people, this is what makes them survive, also when they do get to the summit and down again they do want all the glory.
A wonderful interview. You are a great story teller. Maybe also a teller of great stories? Why have you discounted the watch found on Mallory??
Good interview. Sadly as of March 2021 Andrew Irvine still has not been found and after watching Ghost in the Clouds(2019) he may never be found.
He's never been properly searched for. There's been a few half hearted "expeditions", where if you see the facts of what they did, it amounted to little more than having a wonder for half an hour off the trail. To find him, you need either blind luck or a proper committed search and a low amount of snow cover.
Plus the Sherpas don’t really like you straying from the path as it’s dangerous for them to be hanging around and waiting at such a high altitude wasting oxygen whilst another climber is diverting from the route and attempting to look. As mountaineering regulations prohibit you from climbing the mountain without an escort. The place he is thought to have fell is extremely difficult terrain to search thoroughly enough. But it would be wonderful if he was one day found 🤍
@@TheSaxon.
Feet on the ground searches haven't been extensive but they have discovered alot more in the search area than just Mallorys body over the years. The search conducted by the NatGeo expedition last year, was alot more thorough than the documentary of the expedition presented. They flew a drone up as high as 28,300ft and it scoured the 1924 route and area that Irvine is suspected to be discovered therein.
Do you have any idea where others could watch "Ghost in the Clouds?"
It's called "The Ghosts Above" (sheesh!) and it's on CZcams.
I am curious about whether Mallory’s body showed signs of trauma from the oxygen system being pulled off in the fall. If not then it may possibly show that the fall occurred after the oxygen had been used up and discarded possibly on the decent.
There wasnt. it does indeed appear they have used the oxygen and discard even their harnesses. Mallory knew they would not need it past camp six going at lower altitudes. They could use some of the bottles there to sleep and recover overnight, but descend without them to safer altitudes next day descent
His clip for his oxygen tube was in his pocket. Seems he ran out, discarded his tank and secured his clip. So he must’ve ran out
I’ve got one for ya: my adoptive dad’s father was a Jewish junior commissioned officer, defected in ‘37 to England, then the US, served WW2 and Korea, retired a MG!! Hell of a story
I don’t know how he can jump to ‘they didn’t make it’ from rope burns around GM’s waist. From Odell’s position, he put them far further West. So from that location they were either returning from the summit or were returning short of the summit. Either way no conclusion can be deduced from ‘rope burns’.
Why would he say that the rope burns found on Mallory were evidence that they didn't make it to the top. I don't see the connection.
The topic of Mallory and Irvine starts at 8:28
Sadly Holzel didn’t get any of it right but he does get credit for sparking the topic.
Also, why exactly would the fact that Mallory was found with a broken rope around his waist make one think that it is now overwhelmingly unlikely that they made the summit? How does that follow?
It is evidence of very little except a broken rope around his waist. Michael Tracey draws good conclusions on YT.
Wow! This is a true Renaissance Man talking…
I think they die t want to show the exact locations to the public as people will try to go there.
if a foreign country did not return the camera, that is just wrong.
Holzel and Salkeld's book is excellent, and Michael Tracy's YT clips are a good counter. I am inclined to accept they reached the summit. They had time and were seen at the foot of the final 3rd step "going strongly for the summit" by Odell at 12.50 p.m, some good distance beyond the area where the body was found so it is reasonable to accept they were returning to that altitude. Ruth Mallory's photo was not with other documents found on Mallory's body, and he had said he would leave it at the summit. They were probably descending in the dark. I accept that this is circumstantial evidence but it is evidence.
They didn't have time, it's well established that they were running late and is one of the strong points to suggest that they didn't make it.
As far as Odell's account of having seen them and their location the only narrative that people repeat is the rosy one, the fact is throughout his life Odell kept changing and was vague about where he saw them, I don't think he saw them at all and believe that he made it up which explains that, I think he was afraid if they'd have gone back with yet another grim story about a failed attempt that didn't even get close along with even more death's that the people who fund those kinds of endeavors would have pulled the plug on further expeditions, those guy's had to compete for funding with people who wanted to fly the Atlantic solo nonstop, set altitude records in balloons and aircraft, find the sources of some of the greatest rivers in the world and go on archeological digs in Egypt and I think he was worried that the organizations like Royal Geographic Society and the other's that fund those expeditions wouldn't want to spend more money on another failed attempt, without making up having seen them the report to the people who funded all this would have been "Norton tried it one day and hit an impassable spot and turned back then several days later Mallory and Irvine left camp never to be seen again", that would have made what, two British attempts in a row in three years that failed and had death's? Yea, I think he believed if he went back saying that he saw Mallory and Irvine go up and over a place with no problem that Norton made the mistake of trying to go around and were motoring right along with success at their fingertips when the clouds covered them up and the only thing that possibly could have stopped them, a storm, unfortunately rose up and did, that story also leaves open the possibility that they did summit but were unfortunately caught in a storm and just didn't make it back down.
Something that people never bring up since Mallory's body has been discovered is where's his pack and oxygen bottles? That probably solves the mystery of where the camera would be, everyone just assumes it's with Irvine because it wasn't found on Mallory but no one ever brings up that it could have been in his pack, which obviously blew off his back when he fell, he went vertical about 70 feet before hitting the slope he slid further down, when he hit at the bottom of that 70 foot drop the straps on his pack snapped at the same time his leg broke and it went tumbling down the mountain, and Mallory is who the Chinese climber saw, the one that told the Japanese climber, everyone keeps thinking he saw Irvine because of the very sleeping position this guy suggests he was supposedly found in with his hands together and under one side of his head, I don't think the Chinese guy meant he was literally in that position, he simply gestured that way because it's the universal sign language way of describing someone who looks like they're sleeping, he very well could have been talking about Mallory who easily could have appeared to him looking like he was in a common enough sleeping position that we've all been in at times, as far as Irvine's body I don't think he had control over his fall like Mallory did who was obviously digging in with his fingers while sliding down the slope where he was found, I think Irvine tumbled all the way down the mountain and he's buried under many feet of ice in the glacier at the bottom, he'll never be found.
The fact that they are dead means they probably made it, statistically, one does not turn around short of the summit to die on the descent.
Extracting actionable info from data...that’s what we do as researchers ....and why intelligence agencies like us...
That oxygen system story is incredible. Could it be true?
It doesn't suggest they didn't make it. Because he fell shows he fell on the way down. So don't say they didn't make it because of a fall.
It's virtually impossible they made it. Still an amazing historic event.
@@EA-gl9oi
odell in a dispatch to basecamp the very next day described the last position he saw them as "at the final step before the pyramid" at 12:50.
they did not climb the second step, mallory himself said he wouldnt, they took the norton route as everybody else did and came up below the third step where odell saw them. this puts them on a timeline to reach the summit before mallorys cut of time at 16:00.
mallorys goggles were in his pockets indicating he fell in the dark coming down. should they have turned around at the first or second step, they would have somehow wasted 4-5 hours doing nothing and while rested and in good shape, in full daylight, before the bad weather, fell almost immediately after turning around on a fairly easy part of the route.
@@EA-gl9oi sez you?
@@ralphbooger4756 QAA
@@EA-gl9oi why was it impossible? The last sighting says they were going strong close to the summit. Mallory‘s body had his snow goggles in his pocket, meaning it was dark. The time difference strongly suggested they had summited and were on their way down in the dark.
Mallory was taking a medication that most likely impaired his vision and judgment.
I'm not sure why Tom believes it is almost certain that they did not make it due to the fall. Most people fail and fall on the way back down when tired, and in M&I's case likely dark. It seems to me more likely that it was a fall on the return than on the way up.
Agreed. I don’t understand how rope abrasions, bruising in his waist area could indicate falling on the ascent, not the descent?
I agree, Mallory’s snow goggles were found in his pocket, suggesting it was dark, indicating a return from the summit.
@@drstrangelove4998 No. The timeline established means they were returning after having turned around.
Great storyteller, maybe too good. I am starting to wonder how much is true and how much is embellishment. He sure loves taking credit for things and seems to have a convenient excuse for why things don’t pan out
I would suggest that is rather unfavorable. Holzel is THE PERSON who sparked interest in the whole Mallory-Irvine problem in the 70s. His general thinking was very much along the right lines, and if the New Yorker (New York Times ?) ran away with his story, should be easily confirmed. Latest ideas in 23/24, suggest that Irvine's body is no longer on the mountain - wouldn't surprise me, the question being when was the body removed? As early as late 70s, or three decades later. Holzel is careless on some details. Makalu is the fifth highest mountain in the world, Everest, K2, Kanchenjunga, Lhotse, then Makalu. A question that has bugged me for many years is why three of the five highest peaks lie so close together geographically. And that too in the middle section of the Himalayas. K2 in the Karakoram, and Kanchenjunga almost at the eastern end - close to the two points where the Indian Plate made hard contact with the Asian mainland around 50 m.y. ago?
My question is , how do we now mallory fell first...could it be posible Irvine fall around the great cavass..coulnt mallory been the one that jad to use his axe to cut the rope..from what i understand the rope around him had snapped or was cut close to mallorys body..please comment with opinions i love the mallory irvine mystery