Mallory & Irvine: Two and a Half Ice Axes
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- čas přidán 6. 04. 2022
- Review of circumstantial evidence and the ice axe found on Mount Everest in 1933. The axe was originally thought to be George Mallory's and then thought to be Andrew "Sandy" Irvine's. A review of the marks and Irvine's other ice axe shows it is equally likely to be Mallory's or Irvine's.
The Watch video is still coming.
Pages:
www.courthousenews.com/the-ax...
www.simonandschuster.com/auth...
Comments are limited to those who actively participated in the channel previously. I do not have time to moderate these comments and new people can participate once the "Watch" video comes out. There will be two more smaller ones and then I expect to release the "Watch" video -- which may be split into two videos.
Great -- thanks (!)
Moderate the comments?
Why?
I don't bother with my channel.
You have a good community; we can police ourselves. You just concentrate upon your marvellous research and wonderful, interesting channel 🍀
We are all new to the channel at some point. But you make excellent content. I am curious as to what type of comments are being left here that causes a need for that. 😔 sad
Thank you, Michael. I'm afraid I'd have been convinced by the photo of the similarly-marked axe and swagger stick. Your tenacity in examining each piece of evidence so thoroughly is admirable.
Hell yeah dude. A new Mike Tracy video is a good way to wind down the day.
This is the mystery that just keeps on giving... Much love to you Michael Tracey for all your hard work and concise non biased information!
Tracy IS biased, he clearly favors facts over feelings.
@david schneide Your other comments that used the "C" word were removed by CZcams. Your avatar is fairly distinct, and I noticed your comments just disappear. This has been fairly common in the channel when discussing a particular Asian country.
@@michaeltracy2356 I appreciate your response, and I really enjoy your detailed analyses. My comments are personally retracted, I figure they make it to your inbox, so good enough. ;) no need for a random reply a year from now. Be well, keep up the good work...and I look forward to YOUR 4k drone footage over the mystery hotspots.
This is infuriating,No images from the drone that could answer some questions,
I'm glad you have the patience and ambition to keep sifting through anything and everything about what happened to Mallory and Irvine,The 1999 expedition and try to separate the bullcrap from fact.
As much interest as I have about this
I wouldn't get very far digging around, The disinformation, and expedition games being played would send my temper to the stratosphere.
Good work Mr.Tracy thank you for your time and effort,I look forward to more videos from you.
I guess the real question then is - to who’s best interest does the miss information serve?
Michael this series of videos continues to be really well presented and thought out. I appreciate the work you are doing on this.
I’ve been increasingly interested in your research into this issue. I personally don’t participate in mountaineering but I love watching videos and reading peoples accounts. Your analysis and thought provoking words on this particular subject have essentially confirmed what I’ve thought for awhile now. That Mallory and Irvine made the summit. Love the videos man please keep them coming.
Thanks for all the videos Michael! I have found myself super interested in the topic and your videos have been lovely!
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos.
Thanks for the book rec, Michael. Already looking forward to your next video and your review of Into the Silence in particular.
Been following this investigative series since the beginning and it’s well put together. Michael is a lawyer after all. One day we will know the truth or at least be able to reasonably deduce it. The work is fascinating. Here’s to finding Sandy Irvine someday!
Same here. Greath research with no bias, just facts.
If you look at the location of the axe found above Mallorys body, and the fact that his ankle was broken, the rope was cut, he was below the path he was supposed to be following, then can we also deduce that Mallory fell. And if Mallory fell, then maybe Irvine fell even further? How steep is the slope, how far could he have fallen?
@@expelledfromthematrix3220 From what I have heard, down from GM's body is a drop to the glacier floor etc. You fall here and you are going a long ways down.
@@expelledfromthematrix3220 Mallory fell, personally I think he passed out from exhaustion, 20+ hours at altitude after sleeping, no oxygen in hours and hours coming down from the summit, he nodded, overcorrected when he caught himself, and fell over the side of the yellow band. Mallory had been sleeping horribly for weeks, undoubtedly he was exhausted, and he may have actually been injured earlier on the descent. It would've been hell on poor Andrew Irvine, a fucking warrior who never gets the due credit and respect he deserves, kid in all likelihood stood atop Everest with hardly a notch in his mountaineering belt. I also believe Irvine did his job, belayed, but it was no use, Mallory fell free and the rope snapped against something as they tumbled, or it snapped against Sandy himself, in that event, injuring him, pulling him from the ice axe location to a shelf that is hard to get to, or he simply wound up on a shelf trying to go after his companion, which you damn well know he would have, even if it meant his own life, he was the type, I think everyone on that trip sorta knew that about Sandy...he was highly cherished among those far older and more experienced gentry & mountaineers.
Gripping. Every single word is is valuable and your narration style is succinct and direct, yet light and easy to follow. I’m glued to this entire series. Thanx for all your hard work, Michael!
I always look forward to a new Michael Tracy video! Great detective work all round 👍
Thank you for this information, Michael. So easy when reading up for the first time to be misled by 'accepted history'. You're consistently the voice of reason with this!
Another fantastic video, and well laid out argument and evidence.
Thank you Michael, always informative.
I love the reference to the himalayan yeti dropping the ice axe.
My favorite CZcams notification. Love the work
Michael!!! The Chinese algorithm quit recommending your videos but now I get to binge like 5 🥰
Thanks for all your hard work, research and insight.
I've just viewed "Lost on Everest" and i found it all rather disingenuous.
Perhaps i don't know what I'm talking about but if they were really there with the intent of searching for Irvine, they would've had no interest in summiting and wasting valuable time, energy, resources and health.
It seemed more like they were just on a commercial expedition and had a look around for five minutes on the way down. The Sherpa didn't even seem like he'd been informed of their intentions, unless it was staged.
If they were really there to look for Irvine, it all could've been carried out with far more effort, efficiency and strategy, than there appeared to be on this documentary.
Agree. The lack of care taken to "exhume" present and photograph his body is astounding.
Yes it seemed that way to me too
Must have missed this, so a very nice surprise when it popped up. I do really enjoy this series. Looking forward to Galileo!
Fantastic series of videos Michael who do justice to Mallory and Irving with Facts and not their own assumptions to publicise their climbs like some have done.
Why would Sandy have had a swagger stick? He wasn't in the army and it was seen as extremely 'bad form' to carry the accoutrements of one of the King Emperor's Commissioned Officers without holding such a Commission. Someone of Sandy's age, just missing out on the slaughter of WW1, would have been doubly sensitive around any hint that he was stealing valour.
I'm anticipating the upcoming videos! My hope is that you'll be able to get back up there in a low snow year. Maybe a couple more times! Very curious about the Nat Geo drone footage... what is the problem over there?
Watching your interesting video and was suprised when you mentioned Marco Siffredi! Currently laying in bed about 10 meters from his childhood home. His parents are my neighbours! Hello from chamonix
Michael, I have been watching several of your videos of late and although I generally find the delivery and narration a bit dry, I find the factual analysis and commentary you provide to be significantly better than most. I watched a recent video of an interview of Synnott by Pollard where Mark theorized that the Chinese moved the body and went so far as to suggest that no further searched for Irvine were necessary. I found many of their conclusions to be nothing more than speculation and conjecture constructed from anecdotal evidence, none of which is conclusive or supported by any physical evidence. I enjoy your research and perspective and look forward to more of your work. thanks
Looking forward to the review of The third Pole!
Great video im always gonna be happy to hear about Mallory and Irvine
Yesss!!!! A video!
Yet another great video! There can be only one certainty if Michael Tracy has been gone a while; some new angle has been discovered!
3:24 It is quite suspect that the most recent expedition, with so much publicity, was virtually completely erased. Maybe such a seemingly pointless expedition, exclusively covering ground already searched, shrouded in secrecy about the full details, is too much for them to keep scrutiny away from. Better now to point attention away from it, and pretend it was nothing but a failed search. My only question is why they felt it was necessary to shore up the lies with a new expedition? It suggests that others, such as yourself, were getting a bit too close to uncovering something for comfort in 2019.
5:30 It's a good thing you're out here doing the work for the rest of us, I'd always happily accepted that it was Irvine's Ice Axe. I assumed it was initialled or something, not just some marks of unconfirmed origins. Even with skepticism, it's easy to be lenient and assume "well, they can't have lied about *everything*". Apparently, no, they can have lied about everything.
11:40 I love that Wyn Harris knew the importance of marking the original location they found it precisely by leaving his own axe behind (though going on to use the artefact you just discovered might be questionable). Harris doing a lot better and being a lot more professional then the 1999 expedition (regarding the oxygen bottle).
Much like the movie recommendation last time, I'll be sure to check out this book! While I fully believe in the concept, it's always good to be exposed to more works about it. I'll see what I can dig up regarding Liesl Clark, though I'm not entirely sure where to start. A blog perhaps? We shall see. Looking forward, as always, to the Watch video, and all the others that will come first.
I checked out Liesl Clark - “independent film maker, working with National Geographic” and turned back…
Yes to everything you just said.
I think we are going to have to try a bit harder to find Liesl Clark's opinion on the expedition than reading her Buy Nothing book. There is no mention of Everest or Mallory in the Index although I do see some merit in reading the book anyway. A few simple clicks on the internet to reveal the truth ... really? I found her dispatches on the Lost on Everest pbs website and her responses to readers' questions but I don't have the analytical mind of a lawyer to understand what is in plain sight to Michael Tracy. Maybe other sources are available. Please share if you find any!
@@lisatitirangi I had a quick look online and was unable to find anything but maybe there is something out there.
Great video, thank you very much !
If Mallory was found in the 70s and his location was shared in 96, do you think the party members tampered with or searched the body themselves? Pockets can be shredded and altimeters can be smashed by great falls, but do we think they had human help? Also, was there any follow up video covering Liesl Clark's work? I'm having trouble finding it if so, and also can't find anything externally referencing her work on the Mallory expedition beyond a mention in various biographies on sites like Simon and Schuster or NOVA.
Thank You Mr Tracy
Thank you very much for your thorough research. I would like to add that in that in Ruttledge's account of Wyn Harris "finding" Irvine's axe that there are plenty of instances of "poetic license" whereby a story is made more interesting and sales promoted. I think this is one of them. Such acts of license are, in my view, standard in in biographies and autobiographies. Reader beware!
Very interesting and logical, as always.
I am a long time Everest enthusiast and have been following the Mallory and Irvine saga since I was a young girl. I enjoy your videos Mr. Tracy and thank you for producing them. I have one observation on this video about the skull fracture that perhaps can be elaborated on by others. It is your belief, reflected in this video, that Mallory did not have any perimortem holes in his head. Any holes in George Mallory's head would have been postmortem from the ice axes and crampons of his discoverers in 1999. My observation is this: one of the discoverers states that he saw blood (Wade Davis book). Blood could still be preserved in a frozen body and is indicative of a perimortem wound. That is, a wound made at or around the time of death. Though it does not indicate George Mallory's state of consciousness at the time of his death, it does indicate that your conclusion about ice axes and crampons is faulty and needs revision. Common sense dictates that Mallory probably received head wounds during his fall, but does not preclude the wounds being from his own equipment. Is there any other testimony from the discoverers that indicate blood found on the body? Are there additional sources to look at for this particular issue. I have read most of the material that you use for your presentations and I don't remember seeing any more testimony about the blood, other than what is in the Wade Davis book. There's so much great information on this channel!
The problem is that the person who saw the blood also saw the hole on the head on the left hand side of the head in one account and the right hand side in different accounts. There is no accurate description of how much blood there was, and Trotsky shows that such an injury would be accompanied by a lot of blood.
There is also the problem that the person who saw the blood also saw a note in Mallory's pockets that was never reported before, never disclosed, and appears to not exist. He also reported searching pockets on Mallory while he was thousands of feet below at Advanced Base Camp. Thus simply stating "some person" saw blood is of little value without point out that the same person saw the hole moving from one side of his head to the other, has mile long arms, and can see notes that no other person on the planet can see. Rather than accepting such ridiculous statements, you might consider the possibility that this person is not a reliable witness.
@@michaeltracy2356 They could be an unreliable witness. What you also dismiss is the fact that shimmying under a body makes the body a mirror image, and therefore both reports could be true. The wound could be on Mallory's left but on the person seeing it's right. I am pointing these out because they are logical flaws in your argument. In order to tighten your argument you need to consider multiple possible conclusions and how they can be refuted, then address those refutations. This video only does that partially.
No, they cannot both be correct. You have a right hand and a left hand. If I look at you, your hands to not switch sides.
He also had no ability to "search" the pockets he claimed. His arms are not 1 mile long. So, it is not possible that statement is correct.
You are welcome to believe what you want, but cannot spread disinformation here. You are the one that didn't include all the facts in your statement, You are the one that didn't research anything and then make an excuse that it could be a mirror image. Did you talk to him? Did you ask if if that is why there are various reports? Or did you just speculate that it might be the case?
Given that you were either unaware of this inconsistent statements or were deliberately being disingenuous, I find it difficult to believe that you spoke with him about this issue in the last 24 hours. So, if you have actual information to offer, please do. But if you are just speculating about it, you are not adding anything and just wasting all our time.
Is it possible Irvine made a successful arrest and died after crawling some distance? I was Looking at pics of the broken rope found tied to Mallory’s body and wondering how much strain would be required to snap it-or was it cut by a rock, and if so, how much strain would be required (again)? It seems that a significant speed and/or direction differential accounts for the severing of the rope. Perhaps this also accounts for Irvine’s final resting place being undiscovered to date.
Irvine was likely seen by Xu Jing in 1960 and my photo of from 2013 shows something that could be a body in a location consistent with Xu Jing's route. Thus, I would say "unconfirmed" rather than "undiscovered." If the location turns up nothing, then back to "undiscovered."
A team searched that area in 2019. Initially, they denied searching that area and there is no mention of it in the television show documenting their search. Years later, they publish a map that shows they did search the area, but refuse to release any photos -- despite publicly saying they would.
There is also some pending announcement about Irvine. The details at this point are vague and it could be a nothing burger. But best to revisit this in about a month and see what has come out.
Why would he limit comments? *Gets to the end of the video* Oh damnnnnnnn. I'll definitely be interested in the next video, I can believe it, at one point Conrad said on video he thought about keeping the discovery to himself and not telling anyone. So even in his own admittance, the thought was there. Figuring out they made it to the top and not sharing that fact falls in the same realm of possibilities.
Thanks Michael
I'm not sure if I missed it but I'm curious about Captain Noels photo from base camp, 1924, (the one pinpointing the locations at a later date) do we know if this photo was taken before or after Mallory & Irvine went missing? Apologies if you've said.
I don't think Noel took any photos after June 8 from basecamp. But the Bentley Beatham photo was taken June 8, 1924 at sunset which is exactly when they were either climbing or already dead, so that photo shows the exact condition of the weather, snow on the mountain, etc that day. Numerous other photos from that day also exist, so we know exactly what the weather was like -- no huge "storm".
I don't think Andrew Irvine is dead at that point because I strongly believe your correct in your video and where 'his final resting' place' is and my vision (unlike Odell's) isn't great anymore but I can't see anything is there at that point, so I'm wondering where you personally think they may have possibly been the time that photo was taken?
I have found Thom Pollard's account incredibly detailed as well he has been very gracious with his time in research and his replying to so many common people that inquire about George Mallory and Sand Ervin. Over the years I have really come to appreciate Thom's continuing efforts into one of history's greatest mysteries in large part due to his honesty and being so humble in the regards to this part of history.
Your programmer should program you to spell the names properly. "Sand Ervin" is a sure sign you are a bot. That Thom, or someone on Thom's behalf, needs to resort to using bots to enhance his image is pathetic.
@@michaeltracy2356 with that tone and way of speaking down on others, I'm wondering what you have against Thom and his investigations?
The numerous videos come a large number of criticisms of the "investigation" -- little of which was done by Thom. Most of the criticism relate to the people who were actually there on May 1 or who found the oxygen bottle on May 17 -- Thom also not there for that. Try watching the videos and understanding what they are saying and it will answer your question.
Great video! I love the humor at 3:18 I have plenty taken with snow... it is very white!
I have never once doubted Mallory was first. But I have also always felt that to say you’ve climbed a mountain includes the trip back to the bottom. But have no dog bats Mallory got the first view from the top.
Need to get Bartek Bargiel up there with a drone. He didn’t seem to have any qualms about flying drones right up against the ground on K2 and Broad Peak.
Excited to see your interest in Mt Everest history, EC!
If there's the will, you can just fly them in from Nepal, when the conditions are right.
@@TheSaxon. my thought exactly. China doesn’t even have their spies at the north base camp this year so it would be easy to do.
TY 🙏🙏
Obviously, the credibility of the person telling you the information and analyzation is just as important as the information itself.
The point of these videos is that it is not that important. Much like in mathematics, you do not believe the Pythagorean Theorem because you trust Pythogorus. You believe it because it is presented to you in such a way that you can work through and prove it yourself. Thus, whomever is telling you the information about the properties of a right triangle at its sides is largely irrelevant.
In today's post-truth world, you should not trust anything you find online. If the presenter cannot explain it to you and allow you to verify the information yourself or make it easy for others to verify it, then you should just move along as you are probably being manipulated.
I wish you would turn the volume up so I don't have to wear headphones to hear you. Otherwise, great video!
Michael Tracy as always is meticulous in his research and brilliant in his analysis
I just started to learn about this. My question is do you think the Chinese found anything on Irving and if so do you think they took it and if they moved Irvings body? Due to what china was like in that time era.
I would encourage you to look deeper into this. Why are the people telling the story about the Chinese finding Irvine? Who are they? Didn't one of them just say his book is being translated into Chinese?
Maybe the Chinese are a little smarter than you think they are. Perhaps rather than mucking up some film, burying a body, or throwing it down the mountain -- none of which would help them in the least, they go after the story of Mallory and Irvine and make sure that their version of the story -- the one in which they didn't make it, is the one that is being told.
Look at the people telling the recent story about the Chinese finding Irvine. They all say Mallory and Irvine didn't make it and they don't want other people looking for Irvine. Think about who might really want these two things: (1) they didn't make it and (2) please stop looking. If those sound like goals of the CCP, it is likely because those have been their goals for the past 20 years. From there, just follow the money -- it's not that difficult.
And, curiously, Synnott, Pollard, etc. all say the Chinese made it to the summit in 1960 -- a very questionable proposition which has yet to be conclusively proven. Far more likely Mallory and Irvine made it than the 1960 Chinese. Just follow the money and you will see the CCP is getting a two for one deal.
Why is having a drone on your Everest excursion a point of contention? It occurs to me that having excellent and multiple examples of drone footage would, at the very least, possibly provide information that could make climbing less lethal. Like if it saved 1 life it would be a good idea.
Something I'm not clear on. So Pollard literally climbs under the body of Mallory and sees a wound above the left eye. If they didn't flip him over, who took the photo that supposedly appeared in The Sun causing all the "outrage" prior? What photo? Who took it? When? I've never seen any photo.
The hole moves from the left to the right in different tellings of the story, but Pollard was not there on May 1 when Mallory was re-discovered by the Americans. Mallory's body was initially found by the Chinese in 1975 and re-discovered by the Americans on May 1, 1999 at which point it was buried and no one had crawled underneath. Pollard and Poltiz went to the grave on May 16, 1999 and dug it up. It is at that point that Pollard crawled underneath. According to Mark Sinnott, the body was propped up with an ice axe.
If you want a photo, Jake Norton will sell you one for $4.95: gallery.jakenorton.com/Galleries/Everest-Expeditions/Everest-1999/i-53dNHM9/A
The one published in The Sun was taken by Dave Hahn, but it was similar to the ones Jake is selling online.
No photos of Mallory's face have been published, but there is a report that Pollard photographed the face. When asked directly about this, Pollard stated he would not answer whether he photographed the face or not.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thank you.
Babe wake up! new Mt. Everest lore just dropped!
I always wondered what happend to the rest of the oxygenbottles they had with them? AND what happend to the carrying device for the oxygen that I guess Mallory would have had on him. Since all those items are metal they should still be somewhere on the mountain.
@Logai74 We are all wondering that. The organizer of the 1999 expedition said 2 bottles were found somewhere on the upper mountain in 1999 by his team. But they only turned in one bottle and they have no idea where they actually found it. Perhaps as they get more money for their book deals, they will tell us more about exactly where the bottles were found. I doubt the second bottle is still on the mountain -- there is a black market for these artifacts and that is a more likely explanation for that missing bottle. The Chinese reported finding bottles above the Second Step, so those would probably be in a Chinese archive somewhere. Perhaps there are some more on the mountain, but it is humans that are creating this "mystery", not some inability to locate items.
Percy Wyn-Harris had a movie camera with him the short version is here czcams.com/video/XNiqAbyCLOI/video.html the full version is on a French website but it will only play in the UK , is the message it gives me . I will keep looking .
The one fact continually overlooked is that EVERY climber takes a flag to place on the summit. NO flag was found on the body of George Mallory, if none is found on Andrew Irvine (from Birkenhead -(roads named Mallory, Irvine and Everest are very close to Prenton Park, Tranmere Rovers ground from 1921 to date), then the only logical conclusion is that they DID reach the summit, where they would have placed the flag to commemorate the occasion.
There is no account of them taking a flag. Unlike Antarctica, the mountain is not in some unclaimed territory and reaching the top does not make it Britain's.
As far as I am aware, no one on the 1924 or 1933 teams carried a flag. Nor did Mallory ever say he was going to plant a flag on the summit. He did say numerous times he was going to collect summit rocks. So, I don't see much reason to speculate when a perfectly good method existed to determine whether he made it or not. Why the rocks were not searched for is the real mystery. Why no one can talk about the failure to search for them a lesser mystery.
Instead of a flag he wanted to leave a picture of his wife on top of the Everest. Much(!) better idea in my opinion.
Gentlemen: we have to find the photograph. After all I have learned in the last seven days 😮 only, I am convinced they made it.
And Mallory, clear and determined spirit he was, kept his promise: to put a photograph of his beloved woman on the roof of the world.
The only proof I see 🤷♂️
The feel is.... they made it!
👍👍
Any thoughts on exploring the theory that the Chinese Team (1975) actually found Irvine, recovered the camera? I am curious how much validity there is to this story and if there is any way of actually proving it. It would be a shame to have climbers risking life and limb to try an "solve" this mystery if it has already been solved. Thanks for the videos on this fascinating topic.
Imagine if they just engraved thier names on thier gear 🤯
Have you ever looked into the possibility that the three lines were marked on the ice axe in an attempt to let anyone coming up to search know that they needed help. So as it is today things in groups of three are subtle sign that someone needs help but I do not know if it was the same signal back then. I wonder if Mallory fell and irvin didn't want to end up like him so he climbed back up just a bit and left the ice ax with the three markings for help at the approximate fall line. He then went to seek out some shelter from the wind and cold as it was late in the day and getting dark. There is no doubt in my mind that it was very late because if George had fallen during the day Sandy would have still been strong and would have at the very least made an attempt to seek out help and get down the mountain.
I think that name Liesl is pronounced Lee-sul.
Probably.
@@michaeltracy2356 love your work! Watch all your videos multiple times
Both probably had the same fate as Andy Harris they fell after getting separated somehow or one fell the other had to keep going and fell pretty much the only thing that makes any sense.
How do you explain the rope?
@michaeltracy2356 he tried a glissade and cut himself free before dying of cerebral edema maybe that broken ankle did it. I'm gonna ignore the head injury because of the conflicting information.
Typically, you don't glissade on rock and it still leaves the problem of how he was utilizing a rope in this rock glissade.
More likely he was descending roped up at that location just as Norton and Somervell were descending roped up from their attempt 4 days earlier and just the way Hillary and Tenzing descended roped up almost 30 years later. The fact that there is a rope is a good indication that it was used for what ropes are typically used for in that location.
Yes that does make perfect sense
Mr Tracy?.....if only I had the funds to pay you for your time concerning the incoming system creating this so called global warming.... How perfect you would be for The job sir!
Can you trust anything said by a bunch of people suffering from oxygen deprivation and exhaustion?
LoL
Darwin was an atheist fool.
👍👍