Mallory & Irvine: The Plan
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- čas přidán 29. 04. 2022
- Discusses George Mallory's detailed plan to climb Mount Everest in 1924.
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This channel is the textbook definition of a hidden gem.
I am relatively new to the deep details of the 1924 expedition and all the controversies, But there is no doubt in my mind you are the most eloquent, carefull, and interesting researcher on the entire subject. Thank you for all your efforts. I look forward to every one of your videos
I'm still amazed your channel has not been discovered yet. Fantastic stuff!
It's got nearly a million views, which is pretty damn good for a specialist channel that requires it's audience to have half a brain and the ability for lateral thought.
One of the best video on your channel, Michael; the ending gave me chills. Now I’m really looking forward for the watch video! Maybe I’m a bit naive but, I still like to believe, that someday we’ll have undeniable proof that Mallory and Irvine did summit on that day. And then, one of umanity’s greatest archivements will be backdated of almost 30 years.
I agree..wouldn’t it be something to discover they had summited and were on their descent when their accidents happened
Mallory's own family stated that they would rather Hillary have the accomplishment since making it back alive is part of it.
@@Bill-rb9ki That is bullshit whether his descendants said that or not, climbing the highest mountain on Earth is reaching the summit which is what they did in 1924. If you want to talk about successfully descending alive that's great but it's not the same thing. Mallory and Irvine were the first to climb the mountain, so they should "have the accomplishment" which is one of the most famous achievements in the history of mankind.
@@Bill-rb9ki making it back is everything. It doesn’t really count if you die on the decent with most climbers.
Whether one likes it or not, if M/I summited, then they were the first, whether or not they made it back alive. It simply does not depend on your beliefs or hopes or dreams or opinions. You can say it's not a real summit if they didn't make it back alive, and many, perhaps most, would agree. But if they summited first, it was an achievement whether you agree with that statement or not. I acknowledge that Hillary/Tenzing were first summiting and surviving; and that it was a great achievement.
Thank You Mr Tracy for bringing people to a new level of understanding with regards to what the truth is
Can we take a moment to appreciate that George fucking Mallory fell into a crevasse and caught himself with a one handed ice axe swing
I found you last week, subscribed immediately, and binge watched all of your videos. Thank you for creating such well researched and interesting content!
Fantastic as always, Michael. If ever I'm discussing this with anyone, I always point to your evidence collection.
Please do not create any new threads discussing the Pollard/Synnott interview about the "diplomat". There are several already, and the issues have been fairly well discussed. If you have something new to add, please comment in an existing thread, as new threads will be deleted.
By this point, subscribers should be able to easily spot the issues with the article and the interview and identify the techniques they are using.
As an update, Green Boots has reappeared. Again using time travel technology: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots
If you are new to this channel, it is highly recommended that you watch all the videos prior to commenting.
After every video I keep thinking, there's no further way to solidify the acceptance of Mallory's and Irvine's summit success, but you did it again. I don't know how clarity about Mallory's determination and "under-the-covers" planning can't de-calcify layers of assumptive historical narrative, but I think you're right in stating that history will not get re-written.
As a cultural evolutionist, I'd hazard a guess that this "narrative over facts / history does not get re-written" meme will become very "sticky" with respect to Mallory (over time) . The light you've shon on things can't help but create a counter-establishment narrative. While I'd like to believe what has now gotten cleared up will produce historical accuracy, I wonder if Mallory will soon turn into a counter-culture figure head - a leverageable caricature of modern cancel culture dynamics retroactively embodied.
Absolutely great work on this series. I appreciate your clarity, accuracy, and tell--it-like-is approach. It couldn't be a better fit for the narrative space this historical correction requires (and will necessarily create).
Lmao what drivel
Nice overview and video. I love this story and have read as many books as I could find on this. Someone will find Irvine some day. I hope I'm still around when we find out they submitted. Makes me want to get back out to the mountains bad. Thanks!
Fantastic analysis as always Michael - evidence based decision making makes the points you present much more compelling to believe. Thank you!
I agree with your final statement that history will never be rewritten. It may be a meaningless fact, but your work exposes the incredible hypocrisies. lies and hubris that human beings present. Good luck and thanks.
The historian seeks for the truth not for a cause or glory but because it is there.
Thank you for that. It’s important.
I enjoy all of these videos. They really made it, didn’t they? And came so close to making it back. Their story should be told as close to the truth as possible.
The snow goggles and the 'altitude pipe' suit Mallory quite well!
Mr Tracy’s meticulous research has for me established that Mallory and Irvine reached the summit in 1924. Thank you Mr Tracy for your brilliant work of mountaineering historiography.
Professor Akmal Hussain
You have taken an unreasoned giant step I believe.
Yes. MT is seeking definitive evidence and has yet to find it.
Charles Bruce was an extraordinary man. His life story is worth a book on its own. A passionate front line Colonel of a Gurkha Regiment, he would wrestle his own soldiers and after retirement initiated projects in Nepal and Tibet for veteran families. He was severely wounded in the legs during WW1, to the extent that he was told he wouldn't walk again, he ignored this advice and took up mountaineering as part of his self imposed rehabilitation.
I believe Mallory made it to the summit. Irvine is still up there somewhere. There is no way I believe the Chinese found then carried Irvines body off that mountain. He would be like a one ton block of ice. They had nothing to gain by doing that. The Chinese probably did find Irvine and left him exactly where they found him. I doubt a body, that’s been frozen to that mountain for over 90 years, was chiseled out and carried down. He’s up there somewhere. By the way, your videos are awesome and very informative. I’ve been obsessed with Mallory and Irvine for many years. Everything I’ve learned about those two men tells me that, at the very least, Mallory made the summit.
I also believe they made it to the summit.
But why you don’t understand the CCP’s motivation for covering this up makes me think you need to do more historical research
It's nice to see when comments are not turned off. Thanks for not being a dick
Somehow I had completely missed or not remembered Everest Beyond the Limit. After watching Season 1 and 2 it gave my non-climber brain something to reference and remember. After that show, your theories on Mallory’s route REALLY make sense. Thanks for clearing that. I’ll say this, Tim Medvetz really pissed off Russel Brice. Tim’s summit fever ever further proves Mallory could have been gripped by the same feverish desire to keep going. Fascinating.
Yay (!) "The Watch" prequel . . . part 17.
Great video, thanks !
Man the more I watched your videos and then saw the video that you linked of those climbers finding Mallory, the more I was freaked out at what those climbers did with.his body. I understand they thought they were doing a fallen climber a favor by burying him but this would've been the first climber on Everest and the controversy and mystery surrounding Mallory, they shouldve left things alone and.called proper authorities.
No one asked there to be a forensic pathologist at 27,000ft (not the actual altitude). No one asked them to go find Mallory. They chose to do so. What they didn't. have was any type of plan for what they did when they found him. Dave Hahn says so in an interview. What they did not do is take photographs and get someone qualified on the phone. Instead, they used their phone to fax in a photo of the body to print in newspaper as they were paid for the picture.
They then went back 2 week later and dug up the body. Also, without having consulted anyone. Not the family, not a forensic examiner. No one.
Now, there are some photos and video that could shed light on Mallory and Irvine's climb. They refuse to release these. They could blur out any "sensitive" sections. But they don't release the photos. and they have taken to scrubbing the photos they did release from the internet.
There are many valid criticisms of what they did -- even Thom Pollard called the team a bunch of liars and deceivers. Conrad Anker was very apologetic for what they had done. However, no one that I know of that is any type of legitimate commentator on this subject has criticized them from not bringing a pathologist to altitude. Not sure where you heard that, but you might talk to Thom Pollard about why he thinks the entire team was full of liars and deceivers before you go propping them up.
czcams.com/video/NRbhT4eQXxY/video.html. Starts about the 36 minute mark.
Now, that is some legitimate criticism of the 1999 team. I would be interested in your comments on what real people are actually saying about the 1999 team, not a straw man argument about pathologists.
@@michaeltracy2356 Actually I was thinking of forensic archaeologists as being qualified to dig up a body of this magnitude. I am a regular Joe who is not a climber but has become fascinated with the 8,000 meter peaks. Thanks for your insight
Another fascinating.and thought provoking video, thanks very much! Please tell us more about the book? Hardcover, photos? I'd like a signed copy please. Will go straight into my British Expedition library, right next to Shackleton 👍
I love the commentary on the modernity of the expedition. The hobnail boots are focused on probably because of all the climbing gear used back then, they are probably the thing that most current climbers would balk at. In fairness, walking on things like concrete, tile, other smooth hard surfaces can be a bit challenging in hobnails.
It's amazing when watching all the Mallory and Irvine Everest documentaries, just how little of this real documented information is ever utilised or even mentioned.
Are they terrible at their jobs or just completely and utterly disingenuous?
If you were just a casual viewer of these documentaries, you would have absolutely no idea about 90% of what really did and what likely did occur.
I agree with this - I’ve looked into this casually in and out over the last 5-8 years - this is the most in depth and evidence based set of analysis that I have seen - in retrospect most of the other stuff I had seen is mostly “opinions” of modern climbers on what could and couldn’t have been done - as Michael points out very well there are typically 2-3 things wrong with this approach 1) they are often underestimating the abilities of the climbers vs modern climbers 2) basing their perspective off how the mountain is climbed now and assumed routes 3) not utilizing the actual detailed letters, times, & accounts - or a mix of all of the above
Mostly what I have seen is an Everest version of the Oswald shooting - basically asking a expert to look at the situation and see if they think it’s possible or try to replicate themselves - this would make sense if we had a lack of all of this detailed info - but we don’t - so yes it’s frustrating this details are not taken into account at all
Most people have no idea how to research, parse historical data, just blah blah blah enough for hits on CZcams.
Brilliant research. The details are fascinating. Thank you Michael Tracy. Please let me know when you book is coming out and it’s name
Mr. Tracy: The 100 year anniversary is still 2 years away. But (thinking ahead) here's an idea to consider, please. What about your hosting a live podcast on the day to commemorate the ascent minute by minute -- "as it happened", so to speak (?) If you'd promote such an event in advance . . . you could maybe arrange to have knowledgeable guests. Make it one big anniversary party. I'd consider supporting something like that financially . . . as I daresay others might.
Nah, June 2024, I'll be too busy editing the Watch video.
@@michaeltracy2356 Watch video is the final redpill
Great research. Thank you. Personally, I believe he made it
Very informative info on an early ascent attempt of Everest. CZcams single handedly bringing back the use of the word "however". I never heard the word used as much as in CZcams documentary style videos.
And "however" should be used as a conjunction, and not to begin a sentence.
Bravo.
They most probably made it to the summit via the third step they only reached at 12.50, the zig zag path should have delayed them and so they got down late, walking slowly after the sunset but with the help of the moonlight managed to make slow progress. They were about to attained Camp 6 (at probably less than 1 hour from it) when one of them slipped, draging down the other with him, the rope broke on a rock. Mallory fell to where he was found while Irvine either fell the whole face down or got stuck, badly wounded between the iceaxe and Mallory...?
Fascinating investigation. Thanks a lot Mister Tracy!
Yeah, that's the gist of it.
@@michaeltracy2356 "Mallory's body was apparently found in 1999. That expedition was apparently expecting to find Irvine's body, which had apparently been seen by a previous expedition from a certain country. But it now appears that Irving's body might have been removed by that certain country, to preserve the appearance that it was the first to summit Everest from the Tibetan side". So to speak . . .
Just watch what people do, not what they say. When the North reopens, watch how many of these people return to look for a body they insist is not there.
Great video content.
I would suggest you sort the EQ out on you mic as there is too much bass.
I'm listening on headphones and its a bit boomy.
Need to run the narration through a high pass filter or EQ out some low end. Difficult to understand on large speakers because it's so bass-y.
Mate, I love your videos, but I just wish the audio wasn't always so low. I have to have it up almost all the way and so everytime I get an ad I get deafened.
How long was the piece of rope that was tied to Mallory? If it was short then he cut it. If it was long then Irvine cut it.
Michael, What are your thoughts on where other bottles would have been cached or discarded, and would potential locations, if intact, constitute more compelling evidence for a successful summit than high point rocks?
This is an extremely advanced subject and I am glossing over it for now. I am going with the accounts of Firstbrook and Hahn that 2 bottles were found around the exit cracks.
Exactly what this means I'll get into later. I suspect the second bottle is about to be "found" out on the North face. Nothing about the oxygen bottles is what it seems, and it is probably best to just let that part develop out over the next 2 years.
And if some climbers could follow their estimated path, they may also find bottles, apparatus, other clues
...
@@michaeltracy2356 Michael,
Thank you for answering my prior questions, I had one more topic I wanted to ask about:
With regards to time.
Can we assume that Odell’s and Mallory were using the same time zone? Being a hobbiest photographer I have put June 8th 1924 into several apps that show sun and moon positions etc.. Depending on what time is used Odell’s sighting would correspond with the sun passing overhead and also a shift in shadows from his position.
I know his account states he saw two figures silhouetted, and you place a high weight on his account, and as someone that has been there roughly the same times of year. From those locations and topography is it possible that shifting shadows could create that sort of visual mirage?
Also, If I understand these times correctly Mallory would have had around 3 hours of daylight left and 3 hours of very weak moonlight if he reached the summit right at 4. Would that put him to the potential fall location shortly after the last bit of moonlight was lost?
Thank you for the discussion, I greatly enjoy your channel.
I don't think your timezones are accurate, but I'll get into that, but as stated here, sunrise was 513AM sunset 7:08PM MoonSet 11:23PM. So, if there were seen at 12:50PM by Odell, they have 6 hours and 18 minutes until sunset and over 10 hours until moonset. These times will be critical in the upcoming Watch video, and I suggest just waiting until that comes out as it is sort time -- just days.
👍👍
Is it possible then that it was Mallory's 'deception' that influenced the fact some other members of the party immediately set to work making sure that a possible summit would be discounted? Regarding the immediate confusion thrown upon the 12:50 sighting. Did Norton feel cheated, and dislike that Mallory had snuck in one last climb? Perhaps he felt he could've pushed harder for the summit had he known Mallory was going to make an attempt? I know last time I asked about motive, Michael said he didn't believe it had anything to do with the use of oxygen, as there was already a distinction for oxygen vs. non-oxygen climbs. And I remember Michael didn't seem convinced Norton was particularly concerned about maintaining his personal height record, which based on Odell's sighting, should have been given to Mallory after 1924.
One of the things I have observed while researching about Malllory and Irvine is that everyone is trying their best to prove that they didn't reach the summit.
But I have more trust on your knowledge than theirs. What is your final answer about whether they reached or not. And also if somehow it is proved that they reached the summit will hillary and norgay still be considered first or the history books will change or not?
The explanation of their climb will be in the Watch video, but it is hardly a mystery. I won't get into it here because the Watch video will be out shortly.
As for the history books, I would be more worried about them being updated to say that Wang Fu-chou and the 1960 team were the first to make the summit.
@@michaeltracy2356 What?
Are you suggesting that hillary and tenzing were not the first?
@@ashishmishra9223 I'll save you a bunch of searching through the older comments on other videos...
It was stated in The Third Pole that China may not recognize the 1953 summit. The Chinese government and the United States government have a long history of collaborating against their common enemies. (For instance, they were allies during WWII). Once you realize who the common enemy of the United States government and the Chinese government is today, most of the world will start to make sense, including my comment above.
For those not familiar, you should read the following, as it is probably the most important thing you will ever read: history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v18/d124
@@michaeltracy2356 It is scary to think that by disregarding the '24 and '53 climbs the '60 and '63 climbs were the first by their respective routes and thus the 2 countries mentioned would stand to gain by this. It does however seem to me a very small gain of national pride for such an elaborate web of cover-ups and misinformation. From reading the linked agenda it would seem the nation's in consideration maybe see it as some large drawn out game, with a smaller element of pride also up for grabs... Who knows?
The only way in which this theory links to modern times and not some dystopian cold war pissing contest is that the '63 climbs were sponsored by nat geo. With them encompassing most of the western misinformation, the majority of the rest comes from the Klingons, who haven't seen a regime change since any of this took place. The Klingons do have their fingers in a great many pies so wouldn't surprise me if one of them was nat geo, and thus could stop them releasing drone footage, publishing misinformation, so on and so forth, to what end...
... As long as those interested on Kronos believe the '60 climb was first?
@@michaeltracy2356 Thank you for bringing the transcript to me. Mao was astonishingly prescient, and Kissinger did well to joust with him. The US will not go out of its way to embarrass China with any assertion of 1960 fakery. Current events in Ukraine will weaken China's competitors, and China always plays a long game. China's support for Russia will prolong the war, and China will benefit from its investment.
Congratulations on your promotion within the Federation.
A new Mark Synnott interview was posted on Thom Pollard’s YT channel The Happiness Quotient. I’m still waiting for my library to get an audiobook copy of Mark’s book, so I can’t know for sure if there is any new info covered in the interview that isn’t already in the book, but it’s still an interesting listen for the regulars that keep up with Michael’s continuing coverage of this topic. Even though the opinions held by the various folks involved can be vastly different at times I still think it’s good to hear the opposing sides even as I tend to agree with the evidence presented here by Michael.
Well, he does say in the interview that the entire search that the book is based on was a "wild goose chase," so yeah, that is sort of a biggee that isn't in the book. (14:24 "I think I can say with a fair amount of certainty that we were on a complete wild goose chase and that [] we risked our lives for no reason." )
If you really look at what they actually say and not what is, "Oh, this might be true and someone should look into it." You will see they are saying the exact same things I am. It seems Pollard is saying the new "consensus" is that they did not take the ridge and Synnott is fairly certain Irvine was never in the "Holzel slot."
So much of what they do seems "post-truth" to me. That is, they deliberately are telling you some of their own information is false. And the example above is entirely post-truth.
The guy comes right out and says that everything in his book was based on a "wild goose chase." I use the phrase "charlatan," but feel that is merely a matter of semantics. The "post-truth" part is that Synnott is not the charlatan. He is saying, "Hey, look, even me, a professional climber got taken in by a charlatan and was sent on a wild goose chase where my cameraman nearly got killed (that part is in the book)." So, the lesson is -- don't fall for charlatans.
I firmly believe that Synnott is much smarter than he acts in that video and he is really doing a major service. I don't have any problem with the way he does it, but it works a lot better if there is someone else that can point out what is going on.
To break it down, Synnott says he was just taken in by a charlatan that nearly cost him his life. I'll get into this in the Watch video as the part about the cameraman's fall is very relevant. In essence, if you want to know everything there is to know about Mallory and Irvine, just read the section about the camera man's fall. Its on p.362. Everything you need to know is on that page.
Back to the video.. so, he says he just risked his life based on a bogus story about a camera. And then he tells you... a bogus story about a camera. If you can't see what he is doing, and you really think he believes the second bogus story about the camera, then I know a Nigerian Prince that wishes to sell you a bridge using bitcoin.
@@michaeltracy2356 "Mark Synnott adds a bunch of information to the mystery of Mallory and Irvine, but does so in a subtle method that is necessary in the post-truth era we live in.
For instance, he starts by praising the 1999 search team for finding Mallory's body -- which is the conventional narrative which everyone expects. He then proceeds to systematically take apart everything you thought you knew about the incident. He provides a detailed and gruesome account of how Mallory's body was ripped from the ice causing the searchers to choke on the dust of the disintegrating remains. He describes in chilling detail how one climber crawls underneaths Mallory's body to stroke his face with his hand and possibly inventing, from thin air, one of the major mysteries surrounding Mallory's death. And he goes further to dismantle nearly everything you thought you knew about this mystery.
Synnott also sets up a larger allegory for his own search out to the "Holzel" slot to illustrate a point about Mallory's climb. It is a very subtle point, but Synnott does not provide any photos of his excursion to the slot, and people have been curious as to whether he actually made it all the way there. But that is just the point Synnott is trying to make. Do you really need a photo to know what happened?
The books answers a lot of questions, but for every one it answers, it poses two or three more. Most importantly, it illustrates how to convey information in the post-truth world. If you are a Mallory and Irvine fan, this book is a must read. If you are not really familiar with the 1924 expedition, it provides enough background and signal points to follow along, and a couple simple searches on the internet can explain why he goes into such detail on seemingly trivial points.
This is a thinking person's book. If you think it is just about some people climbing a mountain, you are missing the real story".
Yes, I suppose I should have not said "everything" in the book was based on the wild goose chase. Instead, "everything relating to the search." There is still a lot of good stuff in the book.
I'll have a review of it out shortly... you know, after the "Watch."
Hopefully I’ll be able to track down an audio copy of the book before then. Only way I can make it through books in a reasonable amount of time nowadays is in audio form. Podcasts have ruined me in that regard.
I often wonder what kind of pressure Nat Geo and other sponsors put on guys like Synnott or Anker in these situations, especially now that Disney is in the driver’s seat of the Nat Geo media empire. Are they bound by a contract to keep certain things out of the public eye? There doesn’t seem to be any good reason that the drone footage is under lock and key nor how they basically ignored big parts of the exped in that museum exhibit. I’m not trying to get all conspiratorial, especially about Mark, as he seems genuinely frustrated with some of the bullshit he’s had to put up with over the years doing the research and I just get a sense that he’s a good person thats honest and trying to do the best that he can with the constraints put on him, whether that’s Disney or the CCP.
Speaking of how they praise 1999 exped then tear it apart, I wonder how much of that is difficult for them to approach since their friends and long time colleagues are involved in the bungled events in 99. It’s a small world and it’s hard to talk shit on the record about things people you know and like have done that you disagree with.
Apologies if this has been asked previously, I've not exhaustively read thru the comments.. has there been any subsequent attempts on the zig-zag route? if so were any comparative ascent times recorded?
It was probably climbed in 2014. Any climb of that route will be stealth and not reported, as the Chinese will not permit the route. You can see the tracks in the snow from 2014, but no one reported climbing it --- must have been the Yeti.
it would be interesting if that yeti were to make an anonymous condition report for the route.. also.. Wyn Harris, Wager & Smythe all ended up traversing over to the Couloir, did any of them ever make any notes/comment on the zig-zag route? Would they have known about that option?
The 1933 team knew about the zig-zag route and thought it too difficult. I'll get into this in a video, but they were at 28000ft and found everything too difficult. For instance, they did not make it to the base of the Second Step in order to take a good look at it -- because they felt even getting to the base of the Second Step was too difficult. You can't see the headwall from below, so they would have no idea about the impossibility from up close until they got to the base.
However, today, getting to the base of the Second Step is considered easy and certainly the Chinese in 1960 got there with little difficulty. Thus, reports from 1933 about the "impossibility" of various routes are likely overstated and were caused by them not using oxygen. Without oxygen, any route at 28000 is going to seem "impossible."
And this is where it gets into history by quotation. If you want a quote where someone says the zig-zag is too difficult, you can find that. If you want a quote where they say it is possible, you can find that.
I would recommend looking at the numerous pictures of the route. As people have stated I only provide foreshortened pictures that make it look far too easy, you can look at this video: facebook.com/GranheimTormod/videos/1560605700640719/
Any rational person that looked at that video would see a climbable route. And if you think it is not climbable, you should be able to easily circle the portion of the route that is not climbable and state why it would be too difficult. I find it odd that there was some "debate" about whether Mallory could or could not climb the Second Step, and yet when presented with pictures of far easier terrain, suddenly Mallory can't climb at all.
In terms of the Yeti in 2014, I suspect that team was treasure hunters.
Searchers all know about the treasure hunters. That is why Dave Hahn was so paranoid about the body and released the photos. And yet, no one wants to talk about them.
There are people who are well financed and want absolutely no publicity at all. 2013 was a low snow year, and likely I was not the only one who got photos of the mountain. Once you have the photo, you can go back to that exact spot and pick up the item. Perhaps they just wanted to see if the route was climbable. But more likely they were there to pick something up. Climbing it with snow would tell you little to nothing about whether it could be climbed without snow. But if you have a photo and a metal detector, you can go pick up an artifact.
In 2014, an ice axe that was probably not Mallory's sold for 132,000 pounds. Certainly an oxygen bottle that was his would fetch a much higher price.
Everyone wants to talk about the Chinese when there is a giant Yeti in the room that only leaves tracks in the snow.
@@michaeltracy2356 Wonder what Mallory would think of someone skiing that spot on the mountain.
Never climbed a mountain and I'm not interested in mountain climbing. But I'm obsessed with finding irvine?
Where M&I able to melt water on their final push or were they without water?
Hi Michael, thanks for your work. Would you sit with down across from Thom Pollard in a video exchange? I tend to think that substantial progress could probably be made and some falsehoods finally be put to rest. Looking forward to your next presentation.
Sure, but I don't think that is going to happen, nor do I think it would be useful. You can already see in Pollard's comment sections that numerous people point out the blatant falsehoods in his videos, and he simply says "Oh, I am just saying what others have said and for that you should really ask so-and-so." It is not clear if he is being sincere about this or doing it as part of his "post-truth" work. That is, although the technique is childish and only fools fall for it, it is frequently used by every major corporate or government spokesperson. Is he really just calling people a bunch of fools for falling for this?
For example, there is no reason to "debate" with someone what 8000 meters is when converted to feet -- and yet he and Mark Synnott come to a very different number than I do. Is there really a debate about this? Or he is calling everyone who believes him a fool? And regardless of what he calls them, isn't anyone who believes it, by definition, a fool?
Ultimately, a key message of this channel is that you should not rely on any "expert." Not Synnott, not Wade Davis, not me. If an "expert" cannot present the information is such a way that you can understand it and understand why there is an issue or debate about it, then you should stop reading or listening to that "expert" and either find another one or conduct your own research.
I will point out that the reason I say there is a "debate" about items that seem obvious is that there is a political narrative that is trying to be told and that history is being written to appease that political narrative. This would hardly be the first time for that.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks Michael for your reply. I entirely identify with/understand your points, as i too deal with such untruthful narratives (which perpetuate what should be easily debunked attitudes which have become the official line by mere endless repitition by so called experts and armchair ecologists) in my field of work of tropical reforestation. That being said, even though I'd probably say exactly what you wrote above in your position, a conversation between the two of you would probably debunk the most blazingly untrue M&I rhetoric that a lack of discernment and attachment to things true, perpetuate ad infinitum. It's mind blowing how things so essentially false and baseless continue to reign in this world and influence policy. Thank again for your work, be well.
@@michaeltracy2356 I am unsure how ‘post truth’ it all really is on Thom’s part. I recently posted on their facebook group about the feet/meters issue, trying to call attention to it as politely as I could only for him to dodge the question. Then Jochen Hemmleb makes the same point when interviewed by Thom in a video put out around a week later and Thom honestly doesn’t seem to get it. If they are trying to protect the exact location of Mallory’s body they seem to doing a poor job of it.
I also find the increasingly anti Chinese rhetoric to be bizarre. I fully understand the chinese government’s history of human rights issues, etc…but for those on that side of this to start inventing conspiracy theories and scapegoats without actual disclosed proof seems deliberately inflammatory, at best. Also, having just watched jake norton’s series on amazon, Were they all ( jake and nat geo) on the mountain at the same time, but didn’t coordinate ?
Yes, Jake and Nat Geo were on the mountain at the same time. They did not share anything, but now Thom Pollard makes videos encouraging us to all work together. Problem is, Pollard has a key photograph of the watch that he refuses to release.
I would recommend waiting until after Watch video -- it will be out in less than a week.
As for Pollard, the question is he Jar Jar Binks, or is he Darth Jar Jar? .. czcams.com/video/8yy3q9f84EA/video.html
Love your analysis. Everything makes sense. I’m a True mountain climbing reading junkie. What I’ve noticed in 1924 there was TONS MORE SNOW ON EVEREST THAN NOW. I’m amazed on how bare Everest is of snow. It just rock in many places.
Michael I admire the research that you have done and follow your videos with interest. As a climber who has never been to the Himalayas I would not comment on any climbing points. However I do believe that Messner has dismissed the Zig Zag route as a possibility and as far as I know no one has ever summited via that route. This seems to be big problem with your argument could you please comment.
I am curious as to whether you (1) were unaware that I addressed this already or (2) thought I was unaware of what Messner said or (3) thought I was aware of it but simply chose to ignore it?
This channel is not about me answering every question. I make the information available to people in an easy on non-technical format. But if you want to believe what an "expert" says just because they are able to climb extremely well, then that is up to you.
@@michaeltracy2356 Michael I seem to have given offence if that is the case I apologise and if you wish will remove the comment. The question was purely a friendly enquiry.
For what it's worth I am impressed by the arguments you have put forward and this is not an attack on you maybe the term big problem was ill chosen. I would say I am unaware that you have addressed this already. I have seen your video 'Silence of the Trolls' in which you go into detail of Messner's Route. The question however remains why both he and the Australian chose to breakout right. Certainly continuing up the couloir looked attractive to Norton or he would not have left Sommerville to attempt it if it was non-starter also as you have pointed out Smythe saw no problems with Norton's route. Mountains change and maybe since the 30's there has been a rockfall.
If there are any videos other I may have missed please let me know.
Not that important but is Geoffrey pronounced Joffrey or Jeffrey? I always thought it was the British spelling for Jeff. Good video.
Could be. I watched too much Game of Thrones.
As a Brit, I can confirm that we pronounce Geoffrey as 'Jeff- ree'.
@@michaeltracy2356 Hilarious! And I've never watched it so wouldn't know. Anyway good analogies in this video. I liked the hobnail reference too. Enough though Michael with the Rashmoni references! You don't need them. Your logic stands on its own.
How can this even be debated. Goffrey :))) isn't solely Br pronunciation... Obviously it's important.
I must have seen this video a dozen times and I still can’t understand why anyone would think that almost going vertical see the red and blue lines instead of taking a route that allows an easier climb .. even the green route eventually goes strange if you’re aiming almost straight for the summit. I’m no mountaineer but I have climbed some non death zone peaks. Those routes don’t make sense to me I must be misunderstanding something. Anyway I do enjoy your videos. Cheers!
Has anyone ever gone up the zig-zag that we know of for sure?
200 feet per hour seems very slow nowadays considering the weight of climbing gear and clothing especially using modern lightweight oxygen bottles. A friend of mine on the Nepal side carrying 2 older and heavier oxygen bottles using mainly 2 litres per minute made 400 feet per hour.
The South East Ridge route (Nepal) is steeper and has much less of a traverse. Thus, you can see faster climb times on South side. 400 vertical feet per hour is not uncommon on the SE Ridge route, but even in modern times, it is rarely seen on the NE Ridge.
Michael, as by now you are probably aware, Thom Pollard had Mr. Hemmleb on for a bit and now they are possibly considering 3 cameras?; if you can believe it, but, what I found interesting was someone posted a comment asking Thom to have you on for an interview; this is not the first- or last- time your name has been brought up in the comments-section of his videos! Thomas politely responded, shall we say, with a luke-warm, "Maybe later!" response! I don't know Mr. Pollard, but I found that reply to be less than enthusiastic and virtually a quasi- No! Is there something Mr. Pollard might be afraid of?
I am still amazed they got as far as they did with the equipment they were using…
Yeah, once you are at the summit, you can't really go any higher unless you have like a rocket ship or something.
@@michaeltracy2356 Love your subtle sarcasm Michael! I guess if the remains of a baby are eventually found on Everest, we will know that your utilization of 'Rashoman' was prophetic indeed!
It is funny how the notion persists that our modern gear is so superior to theirs in functionality. I have a waxed cotton motorcycle coat that in genuinely cold conditions is faaaaar warmer and more comfortable than my jackets made of synthetic miracle fibers. Realistically, the ropes are the main modern significant improvement. Well, that and the improved processes/procedures that come with the thousands upon thousands of summits on thousands of peaks over the last 100yrs .
@@r3beatty I agree with you a bit but honestly modern climbing gear is so much better than what the pioneers used. Nylon ropes that dont absorb water or freeze, that stretch and give a soft catch rather than break your ribs on a fall. Angled ice tools that can be used to ascend vertical and overhanging ice, crampons with vertical front points to ascend vertical and overhanging ice. Double layer supergaiter synthetic boots with stiff soles that keep your feet lovely and warm and dry, and better for kicking steps in snow. Down goose parkas and suits with goretex outer layers that are insanely warm and also waterproof. Headlamps that illuminate 100s of meters in front of you on early alpine starts. Modern climbing protection such as ice screws and belay devices to provide protection from falls. Lighter and more efficient oxygen systems that dont freeze up. All of these are also much much lighter than any of the gear Mallory made do with. Just makes his efforts (and all of the early expeditions) the more incredible. Its amazing now, routes that used to take 2/3/4 days can now be done in less than 12 hours. Climbing technology and standards has surged ahead the last 50 years or so
Sometimes I am amazed that people back then were even literate (sort
Of… their writing is so whack man) or could compose music (sort of.. baroque is no Eminem)
I don't know if I'm gonna notice anything from watching all these several times but if there is I'll probably see it. Everyone scrutinizes all the work for inconsistencies and conflicts but what about scrutinizing the inconsistencies and conflicts for inconsistencies and conflicts? LOLOL
Serious ? Michael I think the Royal Geographic saw in him the same extremities they had seen in many other serous people they had set off to their death in the last century , not just his climbing skill but the goal and his hunger for it , these people had a goal they were all willing to die doing giving him his third try is testament to their seriousness in him , British expeditions all arguably made their goals but always had no chance of physically making it home , I think they looked at the 1922 disaster and quickly realised thats the kind of lunatic risks worthy of the Royal Geographic to be honest . To go back 2 years later it shows he had Summit fever before the phrase existed and he had it bad , he must have , That exclusive club in Kensington must have been experts at recognising this seriousness , just look at the resume
I am an ardent armchair Alpinest and really enjoy your postings. I do want to offer a single criticism. In several videos and when discussing different activities of the 1924 Mallory effort you are consistently making assumptions on what or what not actions and routes that Mallory may have undertaken. Comparing 1924 to 1960 Chinese assault you rather nastily deny Mallory capable of following the Chinese upper routes as " just not possible", or similar.
No one knows, I suggest we keep an open mind, open minimally to Odell's reporting.
Mallory stated which routes he was going to climb. HIs last note confirmed that those were still his two options. As neither one was the "second step" or the "1960 route" or whatever you are referring to, it is not reasonable to assume that Mallory did something completely different than what he said and something that he himself had said was impossible just so that you can feel smart. It is difficult to believe you actually watched any of these videos and did not see the frequent references to what Mallory himself said he could do.
@@michaeltracy2356 I in no way feel smart or even consider myself a serious knowledgeable source. But my point is you offer voice of God conclusions, when you too sir do not know what happened. Yes, you well know what was forecast, but offer predictions, that are only that, your prediction. Valuable yes, infallible not hardly. Same for Chinese 1964, that you state without hesitation did not summit. Others, some even more experienced and respected longer than yourself, disagree.
My only suggestion, use it or lose it, is you preface such near-categorical statements with a touch of humility, and indicate there are counter opinions.
I do not appreciate nor need your "suggestions." I do not consider George Mallory to be the "voice of God." He is however the voice of George Mallory. And what you are doing is "taking past" my videos. You ignore what I say and then put in your own talking point. A legitimate debate requires that we agree on certain things. Perhaps you do not agree that Mallory said X or Y. You should have some reason for that belief. I do not believe Mallory climbed the ridge route because (1) he said it was impossible (2) it was impossible given his equipment, time, and Irvine as a partner, and (3) he said two other completely viable routes that he would climb and those statements were published in a book by the person he made them to.
Now, this is not a suggestion. As you are not interested in an honest conversation but simply with to feel superior offering advice. Do not post any more. Not a suggestion. You post again and I will delete it. Have a nice day and thanks for watching.
Michael, I hate to ignore your pinned instruction, but I'd love to hear your take on the Synnott Salon column, summarized in this video on Thom Pollard's channel: czcams.com/video/glMT08zmAP0/video.html&ab_channel=ThomDharmaPollard-TheHappinessQuotient
As per usual, they completely fail to discuss the summit rock samples, which is probably totally discrediting. Your response to a similar question I posed a year ago was completely convincing and I remain in your camp, but I can't help but feel disturbed that the consensus is growing around the Chinese conspiracy.
We sort of discuss this in the thread below by Eric Clapton’s Robot Pilot.
As for the consensus, keep in mind that most people do not post comments. While some people who do are well intentioned, many have their own agendas or, more than likely, are promoting someone else's agenda. I will also point out that most of those people just 2 week ago believed the version of the story were Irvine was in the "Holzel" slot until 2007 or 2008 when he was pushed down the mountain. Thus, these people will believe whatever some authority figure tells them. In this channel, I have banned enough "people" so that a legitimate discussion can take place. As a note, the most common reasons I ban people are failure to respond to a question or failure to complete a homework assignment.
The "post-truth" issue with Synnott is difficult for most people to understand, and I discuss it in the thread I just mentioned. Ultimately, the publicity that Synnott brings is far more than I can with my little channel. He makes it pretty easy to see what he is doing, but ultimately, the test is not for me.
People are being presented two views of the event using two very different approaches. If history has taught us one thing, it is that people overwhelmingly believe myths and would much sooner join a cult than be required to think on their own. But who knows, maybe this time it will be different.
Superbe ending.
I honestly think Mallory summitted and fell on the Descent in the dark He was found with his goggles off in his pocket which meant he climb for hours after he was seen Irving didn’t make it and he Was left to his death and then blew off the mountain later peace by piece. Mallory He was so close and too good of a climber not to do it
But Norton. Didn’t want an oxygen attempt and when he became incapacitated that’s when that plan ensued unbeknownst to him
So why did he choose Geoffrey bruce, because he knew it would fail??
That is certainly a reasonable inference. It is not so much that it would "fail" but that Bruce and Mallory would not even try. Wouldn't do any good to come back completely spent and then try to turn around and go back. So, the two go up, turn around extremely early and then both are fit enough for the final trip -- with Bruce gathering all the oxygen an working with the Sherpas.
When you compare this to the honest attempt of Norton and Somervell -- they both came back completely spent and had enough trouble getting down North Col let alone climbing back up it.
Very rarely will people tell you what they intend to do. Better to look at what they actually do rather than what they say they are going to do. If you look at what they actually did, the plan was to do an oxygen attempt from the start.
I can't imagine Irving slugging it through that couloir for half the day, maybe Mallory who, but now, his summit fever was fatal. If you trust Odell's sighting presumably once they reached the ridge above the second step, which I'm not sure I would, how can you possibly think Mallory dragged Irving up that incredibly steep part of the mountain? I know you have 'Rashamon'ed' Messner, but those climbs through that area were too steep. Perhaps Mallory could have done it but the likeliest scenario was they tried several ways when they were up there, Mallory tried, and tried, but turned back and fell due to fatigue. I want to believe, Mallory is one of my heroes too.
But that is exactly what Norton, Harris, and Smythe did. They tried and tried and then turned back. None had oxygen and none were roped to a partner. Why would Mallory and Irvine end up so different from all the others?
There is also just the basic time problem, and I will say this to everyone proposing their own theories. As soon as you assign a time to it, your theory will no longer work. Let's see how it works. They start at 6AM and they get to the couloir at 11AM. Ok, probably not a good time because this has them going the same speed as Norton without oxygen, but lets see where it ends up. They try and they try and they try for 5 hours straight going absolutely nowhere. Why? They are going to try up until 4PM when they are at 28000? And they know they need to turn around at 4PM. See? It doesn't work. They would stop at about 1PM because then they would know they could not make the summit. Now, they turn around at 1PM, and why exactly are they tired?
You might watch the video again -- Mallory is hardly the "hero."
@@michaeltracy2356 I think the issue is the lack of understanding towards how these expeditions were put together and how these climbs were done. People are seemingly of the opinion that they simply climbed up the mountain and looked around hoping to find a path upwards. This is partly why the 2nd step myth persists among ordinary people. Even presented with evidence that they never intended to so much as look at that route, people think that Mallory would've gotten halfway up the mountain and gone "actually, I do want to climb the ridge route now", Ignoring the meticulous planning that went into looking for routes well in advance. They also think that summit fever means "trying to climb an impossible path for 5 hours".
Mallory with a big spliff lol , now i think you got to look at famous snowboarders to think who might have climbed Everest on cannabis , its a major handicap . maybe as bad as the Kangshung face in difficulty on what it does to confidence and determination plus wanting to sit and chill for while must be deadly , I once rolled a massive joint in a Snowstorm when i was a kid it took all the fun out of it 🤣
May I respectfully suggest you review your audio set up. Very difficult to understand you.
I heard Messener in an interview that there was no rope tht must be used by Malory and sandy to track down after sumit on the route.. he declared strightbaway tht Malaory didnt made it.
How are you pronouncing Geoffrey?
Looks like the Nepalese government now is allowing multiple helicopter trips this year to take gear up to Camp #2 so as to bypass the Khumbu Icefall and take a huge work load off the sherpas. They are also apparently bringing trash back on their return trips. I'll bet many of the sherpas aren't too happy about that as it limits their ability to make money. If any of you here are interested, Alan Arnette gives usually a weekly briefing this time of year on Everest. Arnette use to be a guide and take his own teams up to Everest and has many contacts. This time of year, being 'climbing season' on Everest, he gives a breakdown on what's going on on Everest and mountaineering in general! Here's his YT channel:(czcams.com/users/AlanArnetteClimbsvideos)
Years ago, I had a very negative experience with Alan. I won't get into it, but I'll just give the usual advice that people are not always what they seem to be.
@@michaeltracy2356 Really! Without elaborating- was it as a guide or on the mountain?
It was just an email exchange -- relating to some photos.
@@michaeltracy2356 Interesting! Thanks!
I am sure every one concerned know tht Malory by passed the second step and i have seen no snow crust around second or 1st step in any picture peovided from 1924 expedition
I wonder if they actually burned it down thug life style?
Blocking commentary on most your videos is counterproductive...
Comments are not blocked. I hold the comments so I can read them and respond to them. For people who are regulars, they can post and discuss stuff, but this is not a channel so random people can pontificate about things. If you want to interact with someone (me) who actually reads what you say and tries to respond to legitimate comments to provide useful information or directions on where to look, then that is how it works here. I also allow a lot of comments through just so other people can interact with them if it is not something I want to deal with or is just a "Hey, great job."
For the very small number of videos that have comments turned off it is because the comments on those videos were generally not productive or were out of date. I'll be condensing a lot of the old videos to bring in all the latest information and not spend time debunking theories that are generally accepted as being debunked.
May 1st, 1999 ... George Mallory's body found on Mt Everest / Chomolungma
I think the coverup of efforts made by Malory and Sandy started from the day when Malory's 2nd plan was revealed to other team members...
It seems to me that Mallory caused the death of 7 sherpas in the previous expedition through sheer selfish recklessness or incompetence. It also seems to me he didn't learn from this experience.
Yes, that is one of the points of the video. Can you apply that to anything else in life? Are there times when people kill other people and are not held accountable other than on Mount Everest?
@@michaeltracy2356 I regret I don't have more upticks to give this comment. Thank you.
16:45 Lovely reference! I always suspected that the Clinton's had something to do with it! 😅
Plus I m sure they found proof of summit when they found Malory in 99.
For me they made it via zig zag And i think some of the members of 1924 expedition members knew
His name was George Mallory,his name was George Mallory, his name was George Mallory,his name was George Mallory.
Once again, Sherpas doing all the donkey work and taking the highest risks, yet receiving the least recognition.
It is curious that people repeat this sentiment over and over when our own (western, United States, UK, EU, etc) has this belief built into its culture. I assure you, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, etc did not do the work. It is just easier to criticize some small aspect of an obscure sport rather than fixing the problems in your own house.
Pronounced Jeffrey
Michael did you went close to the Norton Couloir to see what the zig zag look like when you went to the summit Everest?
I am sure that Mallory and Irvine reach the summit and it still count but they were not alive to celebrated it like Hillary. Maybe the Chinease in 1960 or 1975 removed all proved higher in the mountain like o2 bottle and the rack.
The British Expedition of 1924 should had said that Mallory-Irvine summit and where lost in the descent.
I briefly looked for any writings or interviews that Ruth Mallory might have given on George before she died in 1942 from cancer. Can't find anything! Are you aware of anything Michael? I did notice that George and Ruth's son John Mallory is still alive today at 101 years old! Their youngest daughter Beridge died in 1953 and their oldest daughter Clare died in 2001! Interestingly enough, Clare married one Glenn Milliken, who actually designed some of the oxygen equipment used in an Everest expedition in the 50's. Glenn died when a big rock hit him while he was hiking in the mountains of Tennesee with Clare in 1947! Here is the link to the article:(file:///C:/Users/13852/Downloads/84a06ee9-7e3b-434e-aa2b-263d0ce8afff.pdf)
Yeah, I cover a little of that in the Missing Photo video and it links to a more in depth interview with Claire that has to do with Milliken, not Mallory. It also has the brief interview where she talks about the missing letter -- which is sort of a big deal, and it a shame that her story of the letter has been edited out of the mainstream narrative.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thx! I'll watch that video again!