Zig-Zag vs Couloir
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- čas přidán 19. 11. 2022
- Evaluates Mallory and Irvine's potential routes and compares the Zig-Zag and Couloir routes using photos and Google Earth Pro.
Fair Use:
dalewrites.wordpress.com/2011...
Other Photos of the zig-zag:
gallery.jakenorton.com/Galler...
gallery.jakenorton.com/Galler...
gallery.jakenorton.com/Galler...
Thank you Michael Tracy. It's been a long and patient wait for this new entry. Your observations and hypotheses are clear to anyone who watches your entire video series in order.
Thanks Michael, for the lucidity. I'm baffled by the generalized reticence to consider what you're plainly saying. It's obvious: you need to sit down across from someone like Thom and discuss these points one at a time. The latest hypothesis of Thom is that Mallory, after speaking with Norton the night before, opted to take the ridge route, abandoning all prior plans. I appreciate your rigor and clarity. It's most refreshing.
I highly recommend the entire series, its crystal clear that they died on the way back from summiting. The ridge route was preposterous at that time.
Every time I tune in to listen to Thom Pollard I end up pulling my hair out. Thomas Paine once said: "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead".
@@badcampa2641 The Ridge Route was always preposterous; it's only the modern route because a certain group needs it to be seen as the obvious route in order to make their own unlikely summit believable.
@@CharlesFreckwhat I don’t get is if this couloir route was so obvious and doable why did subsequent British expeditions not take that route and succeed?
@@davidgeisler9885 The one subsequent pre-war British expedition to make summit bids made two summit attempts (both in 1933). They both attempted the couloir route. The reason they failed is they did not use oxygen. An ascent without oxygen would not be done until 1978 despite the high quality of climbers in the early years of Everest.
There is a reported oxygen-less ascent by the Chinese in 1969 who studied the teachings of Chairman Mao. As Mao had not published his teachings back in 1933, it is either from not using oxygen or not studying the teachings of Chairman Mao that they didn't make it. You can probably figure it out.
Edmund Hillary attempted the north side route and did not get above North Col. There are numerous reasons that expedition failed, and it never mapped out any clear route to the summit. Every single pre-war summit attempt took the couloir route with the possible exception of Mallory and Irvine. Of those, M&I were the only ones using oxygen. Even the 1922 attempt by Bruce and Finch was on a diagonal course towards either the zig-zag or couloir route -- absolutely no remote way they were headed towards the Second Step, much less the modern "ridge route."
As I will get into on the Chinese 1960 ascent, it appears they also used the zig-zag or couloir route to reach the top of the Second Step where they put a rope in place for the subsequent team to use. This is the most logical route for a multi-stage summit push. Have one team do the heavy climbing, back-track and drop a rope along an easier route so a fresh team can make the summit. They collected rocks up there, so one way or another we can determine if they made it. They also published photos of those rocks, so they can't use samples from 1975.
No real mystery here. Just mysteries as to why no one wants to find the truth.
It’s embarrassing that I accepted every theory Simonson, Conrad and others portray as fact. Until I started watching these videos I believed they used the modern route, Mallory borrowed a camera, stove rolled down from camp 6, the “discovered oxygen bottle” was a great discovery etc.
Omg same
It's not embarrassing, you just needed the time to inform yourself. I was up countless nights thinking about M&I climbing the 2nd Step, especially after the movie "rhe wildest dream". Nowadays I am sure they went in the direction of the Norton couloir just like everyone else at that time, even in 1933.
And even this could be wrong, but it's good to have differing viewpoints
Michael, I couldn’t wait for your zigzag video for months and today it showed up. That made the day for me. Thanks a lot for this wonderful content.
New to your channel. I am fascinated by your well documented facts presented. Thanks for sharing:)
I thoroughly enjoy these videos! Thank you, Michael, fantastic work.
Michael, your findings are simply amazing, please continue to update us with further info, so mind intriguingly beautiful
If Odell keeped writing a diary for the rest of his life it would be interesting to read them since he might write about any preasure that Norton might have done on him?
I am truly obsessed with this event. Thank you Michael
Great video, gives alot to think about. My hope is that one day someone finds some evidence that M&I took the couloir route or zig zag route. I think if they really did take the ridge route someone would have found an oxygen bottle, the packs, or some other evidence of them climbing it.
While I hope someone does find some evidence, I also hope that person does not work for the Chinese government.
@@michaeltracy2356 Zing! Would be funny if it weren’t so sadly true.
Great to hear from you again. Thank you for your diligence, it's appreciated and refreshing, to say the least.
The zig zag route seems like the only way they could have reached a point above the Third Step in time to be visible to O'Dell when he said he saw them.
Brilliant. Can't wait for next video. Love your humour.
Your research, and devoted energy! Has definitely shined heavy , on Mallory's route! There is no doubt, this is the way! It all makes sense! And with his notes! Kind of wish Odell was still here, so you could of conversed with him!
great series thanks for spending the time investigating.
Great video. Thanks for making it. I don't think them dying proved they made the summit but it highly suggests they pushed beyond safe limits and either got there or got darn close. Then came down in the dark totally exhausted and cold.
To me, there was no way Mallory would not have pushed beyond Norton's previous high mark. Especially considering he was on oxygen. Any true climber in Mallory's position that day would have made sure they beat Norton's record.
It is just part of human psychology and that mountain that very very few people get "darn close" and turn around. And while this does not "prove" they made the summit, hopefully whomever finds Irvine can take the time to search his pockets for summit rocks so we can have a better idea of what happened.
@@michaeltracy2356 Agree 100%
Mallory , remains for me the most significant climber
What we need is one or more brave souls who try to follow that route.
I have thought about one of the major pieces of evidence that you mentioned, Michael, in a previous video on why Mallory and Irvine did successfully make the summit. That being that they died, most likely on decent, and I think that might be a point to elaborate on further. Namely, what the physical and mental condition a climber would be in on the decent having turned around early versus one who pushed to the summit and how, if they reach the summit, it contributed to the accident that killed them.
🥵 more content
13:39 This photo is a great example of how perspectives change from different views of the mountain. From where this photo was taken from, it would appear that those climbers would have had a SIGNIFICANTLY easier time just waking around to their right. If that was actually the case, I think it’s obvious that they would choose the easier path.
If they started back from the summit late in the afternoon, and Mallory was worried about descending by the same route, does that mean he would have tried to stay closer to the ridge except skirting below the lower edges of the third step and maybe then cutting back to a lower level before reaching the Second Step?
Hello Michael,
glad to see the work is progressing. After I dug myself through so many quotes, old articles and reports, laying out my reasoning and seeing that none of it seemed to convince my "opponent", I must admit, that I kind of dropped the whole topic. Too much investment of time for nothing.
Nice to see that we both don't like the "person X was up there, so person X can judge what is possible at every other moment in time"-argument. It's not convincing. The conditions during the specifc climbs play a much larger role, than the persisting conditions (steepnes of the slopes, obstacles), cause whether something is a problem or a serious obstacle, vastly relies on the conditions specific to the different climbs.(snow, footwear, starting point)
If putting it out like that doesn't convince, then what will? And we are only talking about the question on "whether a zig zag route is POSSIBLE" and not even whether it is what happened, nor any further conclusions ... And we aren't even talking about people having financial or other interests in claiming otherwise.
Is even the smallest portion of Rashomon too stronk?
I think in fairness, Michael has progressed beyond just whether the route is possible to it being a key pillar of the theory that they summitted. I accept the route itself in in debate however for both camps as I understand the route drives the conclusion about whether they summitted. I think because both sides of the debate agree that they could not have made it going via the ridge due to the second step obstacle.
So it follows that to support a theory that they summited they need to have taken one of couloir routes.
happy to be corrected on any of this.
@@davidgeisler9885 " I think because both sides of the debate agree that they could not have made it going via the ridge due to the second step obstacle."
Not at all IMO; modern climbers have rated the technical portion of the second step as a ~5.7, well within Mallory's veritable abilities. The last bluff face is known to be conquerable via a courte-échelle as done by the Chinese in 1960 pre-ladder.
Certainly not a "given", since Irvine was less experienced and no evidence of a fixed rope for brining the second man up the bluff remained.
Either/any theory has a bit of interpretation to it until we get definitive evidence, but I have always leaned towards it being within their ability. Interesting to se this resurgence of the couloir route, on the other hand.
Climbers may check at the bottom and in the area of the zig-zag route for evidence of bottles or equipment and also directly above Mallory's body to look for Irvine...
What will be revealed on June 8th, 2024 ?.......The 100th Anniversary of the Mallory and Irvine summit push.
Great video Michael, Mallory and Irvine might had done some zig-zag in the couloir and higher. On steep snow slope it is way more secure to zig-zag your way up and it help going down.
Michael in all your search did you find some information if John Noel had been abble to took a photo of M&I high on the mountain June 8, 1924.
They made it to the summit and it count since they had to foot on the summit but sadly they where not able to envoy it for a long period of time like Hillary and Norgay.
Just hope that somebody will publish a photo June 8, 2024.
I've seen the thumbnail a few times and assumed it was a "dating strategy/street game" video and didn’t click on it. Ha ha, it's a great Everest video. Enjoyed
merci to mention marco siffredi ! njoylife
Sad that we will likely never know the answer to any of this. Is it likely that Sandy and Mallory fell together? If they did wouldn’t it make sense that Sandy’s body would’ve traveled a little further down than Mallory considering weight difference? Seems like if Mallory had fallen just a little further he would’ve went off a step edge and way further down. Have they tried looking directly below where Mallory’s body was found or is it too step?
steep*
Good questions. Easy to solve with a drone. Drone was there in 2019 with low snow and the images should answer your questions as well as many many more. And yet, although stating the photos would be released in the Nat Geo museum exhibit, that exhibit has come and gone and no photos. I reached out to Nat Geo -- nothing. People have been asking for those photos now for a while and have been given excuse after excuse as to why they can't be shown the the public.
So, you should see that there is a little more going on than "well, did you think of xxxx." Chances are, people did think of xxx but the ones that looked into it will not share their photos. It is not just the drone photos. Try getting photos from below the ice axe location -- same crickets.
I have photos from 2018 -- it is covered from snow. And despite two separate teams, one with a permitted drone, no high resolution photos have been released and not a single photo that is useful to answer legitimate search questions has been released.
Still hoping you do a commentary on Irvine. Mallory was found with rope tangled around him. Were they tied together? If Mallory fell, did Irvine fall further? Maybe the most likely place to find Irvine is at the bottom of the mountain?
I suggested a while back that Irvine pulled them both off the mountain, Mallory coming to a rest where he did, but Irvine rocketing down the whole face like a meteor. We would find Irvine in about another 50 years, when he is released by the glacier.
@@bolshoefeodor6536
I think the evidence seems to point to this too. It would be interesting to know how long the rope was, that was attached to, and tangled on Mallory, and if it ran off down hill, from where Mallory was found.
I just made this same comment lol. Sandy was heavier so it makes sense he would fall a little further down. And when you look at where Mallory was found it seems like if he had fallen just a little further he would’ve went off a step edge. Seems very possible his body is directly below where Mallory was found. Who knows how far down though
To be fair, I think one of the biggest bits of evidence they summitted is the fact they fell.
If they had succumbed to alt sickness they would have been found just sat down
Your videos are so refreshing. Another fellow's site always spouts politics and how he doesn't like conflicting views. For a hippie, he lacks open thinking.
Cheers
Michael, Welcome back.
Do you think, in hindsight, Mallory and Co would've benefited from climbing highter in 1922 (only in daylight), seen as they weren't "exhausted", just for a recce to gain a greater understanding of the mountain and any possible future issues or was there little to gain from this because Mallory could see all he needed to from his vantage point and it was better to be sensible and head back, as they indeed did?
Their plan was to return for a third attempt. So, at the time, the idea was to conserve strength and make one final push. That final push killed the 7 Sherpa. So, probably better had they done it your way, but that is just 20-20 hindsight.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks, Michael.
Someone needs to climb the Zig-Zag Route. Then we'll know it's difficulty. Needless to say, for anyone at the head of the Norton Couloir it isn't the obvious way out of there.
Didnt Mallory smoke ? im interested in how many smokers have made the top ? its got to be as big a challenge as taking a harder route , i think there should be a smokers roll of honour recognising this achievement
That’s like every Italian and Asian climber, lol.
👍👍+👍
Hi @Michael Tracy
I came across this video which has a photo apparently showing two climbers on a snow slope beneth the 3rd step!
If I understand correctly, that is at the top of the zig-zag route and no other two climbers have attempted it. (The australians took the gully).
czcams.com/video/PwDfE5H9eAs/video.html
It does seem to be from Odell's perspective....Do you think its real?
Is the angle correct for Odell? Did he have a camera on him? Did he take any other photos from that place?
Would the photo have been left unpublished as it contradicted the expedition line of Mallory no being seen at the third step?
I ran the image through google images but didn't find a match. And I contacted the person who posted it.
Thanks!
It seems to be taken a little high than where Odell would have been. Odell did not report taking any photographs above North Col, and likely he left his camera at North Col.
However, it does capture what Odell could have seen and I just see it as some artist's impression of the event.
But there are not a lot of published photos from that angle and altitude, so it would interesting to know who took it. Let us know what you find out!
New to your theories here: So you think that Mallory and Irvine Skipped the second step and took a variation Couloir gully route? Then made the summit at dusk, and then an accident happened on the descent in the dark coming back the same route?
That's the gist of it. There are videos explaining each aspect of it. I sort of view the Second Step as a like an Aristotelian theory of the planets. Popular for years, but not worth discussing any more.
Michael tracey if they were not on the ridge. How did the ice axe get on the ridge. I do agree with you that they summited.
This channel really isn't about me telling people all the answers. Start with a very basic question: What makes you think the ice axe was on the "ridge?"
To skip a bunch of back and forth, it is simple. The ice axe was not on the ridge. The person who found it said it was not on the ridge. The book about the 1933 expedition that found it said it was not on the ridge. So, that leaves just one important question: Why do YOU think it was on the ridge? And when you answer that question honestly, much of the "mystery" will make sense.
@@michaeltracy2356I’d honestly say the ancient Greeks probably had a better and more reasonable understanding of the planets than whatever is surrounding M+I’s summit attempt.
I personally believe they did summit, I really can’t see any evidence they didn’t and dying on the mountain doesn’t necessarily say anything against it. A skilled/experienced climber and a pretty strong guy with good oxygen rig skills and expertise would have better chances than anyone in the early 20th century. Irvine wasn’t an expert climber, and even an expert would be challenged. But, we know Mallory would take a reasonable route and had the skill, we know they had and were caching oxygen, and we know that the “storm” was likely no such thing. Taking Odell’s sighting as the Third Step… they were just 500 feet or so below the summit. And Odell’s sighting absolutely sounds like the third step, and seeing your video on it, he also believed they summited. I’m inclined to believe him on that and to agree as well. Summit fever may well have overtaken the both of them and they were so close I can’t see them turning back without summiting. The weather seemed good, they had daylight left, and they had the equipment. We know they turned back eventually as Mallory’s body was found much lower. They were going up when spotted, and turning back between there and the summit feels so unlikely given the seemingly favorable conditions, skill, and equipment. Coming down, on the other hand… I feel they had to have summited and suffered a tragic accident on the way down.
I don’t know if Irvine’s body will truly answer the question, but I hope it does if we find it.
It is amazing how unreliable “facts” stated by the 1999 team are. Thom Pollard has a PHOTO of Mallory’s watch showing a time of 1:25. However alleged Everest expert Jochen Hemmleb says he believes Odell’s sighting was at the second step because he claims Mallory’s watch stopped at 12:51 because it broke being wedged in a crack there.
Alleged Everest expert Conrad anchor claims Mallory’s watch stopped at 5:21 in a Wildest Dream trailer for Atlantic productions indicating they had an accident after turning back thwarted from a successful ascent. For people who doubt a conspiracy of some sort, how can getting a MAJOR fact this wrong after years and being corrected with photographic evidence still fall under good faith mistakes?
That is a very good question. Perhaps it is a question of telling yourself over and over again that the watch stopped at "x" time makes it a fact. There has been a lot of that going on over the years.
Not a climber but I do know how to do historical research and have read a lot about modern investigation. The 1st Witness Statements are usually the most accurate. I stopped this video without know who said what or when but I'm willing to bet the 1st statements made by witnesses and closest in time to the event are likely the most accurate statements.
Yeah, all those "first statements" are covered in The Last Step But One. Kind of the big theory or this channel is that Odell's (the witness) "first statement" is correct. So, not sure what you are going on about. A video about the "first statement" is called "The Last Step But One." But the "First statement" was written down and it takes about 1 minute to cover -- is pretty simple, and doesn't really explain all the details you need to understand. But if you just want the "first statement," then this "mystery" is pretty darn easy.
@@michaeltracy2356 You were talking about people finding random statements 50 years later as proof for their theory. I should have clarified why I was responding. I think I stepped into a conflict I have no desire to engage. I just find the topic of Mallory/Irving interesting.
It is always a good idea to look at what was first said. Unfortunately, what was thought to have been "first said" about the incident for years was Odell's written account in the newspaper. It turns out, this was not the first account. His first account was a dispatch sent down to Norton -- which seems to have been first destroyed by Norton and then altered in the reported version. This destruction and falsification was not known until after about 50 years later when Norton's diary was published and he mentions the dispatch. This is all covered in the Norton and Odell Dispatches video.
Since then, charlatans continue to use the incorrect "first statement" as the actual first statement, knowing people will likely not investigate the issue. Charlatans also use a variety of other deliberately false statements in a similar manner. This entire series of videos is about what was indeed first said, why it is likely accurate, and observing that there is a rather concerted effort to distort this story for what appears to be a variety of different reasons -- egos, incompetence, Chinese nationalism, speaking engagements, books, movies, CZcams views, etc.
But, if you do indeed keep your analysis to just what was indeed first said about the climb, the entire thing is very simple and no "mystery" at all.
@@michaeltracy2356 I'm going to watch the dispatch video. I just find all this fascinating but I noticed a lot of the videos and articles regurgitate the same stories which have become truth with no solid evidence. There wasn't a lot of new research/thinking on the topic. Looking for a different perspective is what brought me to your channel.
Is there anything we can do to help out an expedition to the mountain to search for evidence?
The North side of the mountain has been closed to non-Chinese since 2020. It is not clear when it will re-open. Also very unlikely Chinese will allow any searches to take place.
The current focus is on getting the drone footage from 2019 released, but that is not going anywhere either. Exactly why the drone photos can't be released remains unclear, but I suspect it begins with a C and ends with a "hina".
@@michaeltracy2356 Have you reached out to attempt an in-person interview with any of the 1999 searchers?
They need to be confronted with some of these contradictions in person when they have no choice but to respond.
Also, are you concerned about the Chinese removing evidence from the mountain? Apparently Mallory’s body was “missing” last time someone tried to find it? I’m only vaguely recalling this, my main concern is about what they’d do if they found Irvine.
@@michaeltracy2356 Maybe another drone search would be faster? I have a DJI you'd be welcome to. I understand obtaining a drone is not the logjam here, but happy to help in any way whatsoever.
“Acid Drops” “Non-alcoholic” brandy 😂 George knew how to get down. I heard there were plenty of dry zig-zags left in his coat pocket. I wonder who Simonson sold them to.
Would China even allow climbers route up Everest other than NE Ridge? The hope would be that the cached O2 bottles could be located…
I think the zig zag made a lot of sense if you really don´t know the mountain. I do no climb but I think I would choose a rout you can see from a photo from star to finish to get some references or even better,with your own eyes. The couloir rout seem too risky and tech,I would rather choose walk over visible hard surface (rocks&ice) than snow. For the ridge,It is not visible and had obvious obstacles in it so maybe not your first choice to go up,but maybe it could be obvious to go down. Zig zag route seems like little rock steps all the way up with some patch of snow,not very difficult.
Which makes me wonder if they separated after the third step and only Mallory summited. Someone in the 99 expedition did think the rope looked 'cut' in the video. Maybe Irvine found the citadel too difficult, they cut the rope so each would have some - before amicably parting ways? After summitting Mallory takes the zigzag or couloir down and Irvine takes the ridge route back? Maybe Irvine decided to take the ridge route as it looked more feasible/you were less likely to get lost, plus he could better watch out for Mallory returning below? (Xu Ting's account reports a body on the ridge ''in a very exposed area, unsafe to go further this way" about halfway between the first and second step, presumably near mushroom rock? with a 6000m drop if it falls off.)
Then Mallory takes a lower route back than we generally think here. I don't know if the couloir route would seem safer in the dark even though Mallory generally seems to have preferred rock to snow. As an armchair climber, I'd prefer to fall onto snow than rock though.
One thing that makes me think he took a much lower traverse back is the state of his body. Its only one leg break, one possible hole in his forehead and some frostbite. I'd have expected two broken legs and a broken neck and spine, dislocated shoulder etc.. Wasn't he also found near his ice axe? If he fell from somewhere near the previously found ice axe above, the one with the notches, I'd be impressed if he could hold on to his ice axe all that way - although it WAS Mallory so who knows..
I need to find out if there is something maybe 100m uphill of where his body was found that he could have slipped or slid off [see below about the glove for why I think it was more of a slide before a fall]. Having a latitude but no longitude makes that difficult though. I will review the 99 videos again. ISTR there was a large structure in the background near the body, but I might be mistaken.
Also random slight mystery. He wasn't wearing googles so it was dark, but why wasn't he wearing his fingerless gloves? The gloves mentioned, one of which might be pilfered or lost, are I guess the fingerless ones not the mittens? I cannot imagine why anyone would take their fingerless gloves off on Everest, and perhaps this is a clue to something. I even considered that he might have been answering a call of nature when disaster struck, but asking around, I'm told you wouldn't need to take fingerless gloves off for that and everything except buttoning up again could have been done with one hand. Perhaps he couldn't risk getting one glove wet, but why remove both?
Oh. Had a thought. I've done a little indoor climbing. I wouldn't want gloves if I was relying on a difficult handhold. Not even fingerless ones. I'd want to use every bit of traction I had. I don't know enough about the going on the yellow band, but I was under the impression it was more about careful walking at that point rather than clinging on like a gecko. Can anyone clue me in here? Mallory's single remaining woollen fingerless gloves cover the palm and base of the thumb according to the picture on Getty Images. That would imply to me that he was on terrain so steep he had to lean forward and use the traction of his palms.
I need a really really good contour map of the Mallory location and Google Maps isn't cutting it. Anyone know of anything?
@@paus529wow. What a well thought out comment🙏
I would be interested to know what you think happened on that day.
It's in the "Watch" video. They left 5:30am, took zig-zag, cached bottles, Odell saw them 12:50 at Third Step, summit 5:30PM, collected rocks, descent at night and fell at 1:27AM on June 9 from exhaustion, dehydration, hypoxia.
Thanks for that Michael. Its nice to have someone commit to an opinion on what transpired. It can be frustrating to only keep hearing “I don’t know what happened - nobody knows, but it’s great we are all talking about it”.
Love your work - thanks for all the research and information on a fascinating subject.
Hi im not a bot
If I'm not repeating a question not previously asked, what route did *you* take?
This is great to fall asleep too!
One thing seems clear, Mallory and Irvine spend a lot of their energy before they got to the zig-zag or the couloir.
From what Ive collected, the given evidence pro ridge route contains:
IceAxe found below the first step
Climbers, like Messner, who supposedly looked at the ZigZag route, said the route doesnt seem possible
Very bad and treacherous rock
The fact that climbers tend to do irrational things in high altitude and change their minds
If I forgot anything let me know. You summed up all the evidence pro ZigZag route so I wont repeat them but ... I feel like im not getting something.
He worte in his letter what he would attempt, the route his fellow climbing partners have climbed prior.
People who were with him on this expedition.
Everyone even agrees that the second step was almost impossible to climb at the time ... why do they believe Mallory would have given it a shot, when the couloir route was his preferred way up from day 1?
Why are so many people trying to literally ignore the couloir route? What are they gaining from it?
From my perspective, the ridge route should be a very unlikely theory and the couloir route the most plausible route ...
Why is it switched around in this case? Am I missing something?
Ice axe was no where near Second Step.
@@michaeltracy2356 Im sorry, first step.
But thats their argument, that Mallory and Irvine had their accident near the first step after returning from their failed attempt on the second step
The ice axe is not really near the First Step either and its location tells us nothing about which of the routes they could have taken. The only thing it tells us is that at one point they were at or above the ice axe location. From there, they could have climbed the modern route, taken the couloir, or diverted to the zig-zag. It does rule out that they followed Norton and Somervell's exact route and N&S did not pass that location -- they passed much lower.
The ice axe itself was found by Wyn-Harris while he was on his way to the couloir and picked up on the way back from the couloir, so certainly someone taking the couloir route could have passed that location because that is what happened as a historical fact.
@@michaeltracy2356 My point stands: They use it as possible evidence for a ridge route, I looked up one example, sadly by Thom Pollard:
czcams.com/users/shortsNMuIVNqtipg
I immidiatly asked the question if it is impossible to access the couloir or zigzag route from that location ... got no answer until now, so thanks for that.
Its just one example of how weird the whole discussion is for an outsider
I'll save you a little trouble, which you will not believe. But eventually, you will figure this out on your own. Thom Pollard is not interested in a "debate" or "finding the truth" or "working this out." He has an agenda. An agenda that has been around a long time. Longer than he has been posting videos. He routinely just makes stuff up. And all of it, 100% of it, he says confirms "his" theory. Trying to "debate" or "reason" with him is pointless because he is promoting a post-truth agenda. That means he is not interested in reality. He is interested in promoting a different version of things. If enough people believe this different version, it works as a substitute for the truth. You are welcome to try to convince him, but he is much much much smarter than you. I don't mean that as an insult, nor am I patronizing Thom. It is a simple fact. He knows what is going on, and you do not.
But if you want to see what is going on, just ask yourself why he is posting Mallory and Irvine videos? When did he start? What is his theory of what happened? And why would someone that thinks they didn't make it try so hard to convince everyone else they didn't make it? Thom is just a pawn in much larger game -- a game that you cannot even phantom at this point. So, keep searching for your ice axe. But when none of it makes any sense to you, it is because you have no idea what is really going on. There is no point in asking me what is going on. If I have to explain to you, or anyone else, you will not understand it. This is something you have to learn on your own.
Michael Sir, I feel u need to stop posting videos repeatedly just to rebut the charltans, the fact is u r too convincing and have brought evidence on record in support of M&I taking the zigzag or the courlier routes....it doesn't matter what the other party thinks....the evidence needs to be presented by them....if we focus on new evidence, that effort may be worth it rather than rebuttals to all guessworks....with due respect