More Power, More Problems? | 650HP SR20VE Swap | SR86 EP 8 [
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- Why are we making more power? No seriously...
In this build update, Andre runs through what was sorted in the aftermath of our cooling issue that really did the core damage before we even made it to round one of the South Island Endurance Series along with some track testing at Highlands Motorsport Park before the second round.
At this stage, we have had the car wrapped in @EarnestCo branding by Doctor B Signage over a weekend while the head was away allowing for minimal downtime and our Davies Craig electric water pump has been installed with some slight complications which Andre explains the solution to.
The EGT and some other sensors have been prioritised with the plans for aero taking a back seat in favour of getting the small things done instead, but when it's all said and done we once again find ourselves only ready to test the day before it's time to pack up the car once again.
Most interestingly the car is producing more power at the same boost levels, and more than just a bit which is unexpected given the minimal changes we have made not warranting it. Also discussed are some of the decisions around spark plugs, valvetrain upgrade for peace of mind and what else was done to get the SR20VET back up and running.
0:00 - Intro
0:46 - Recap
1:20 - Piston Replacement
2:12 - Engine Machine - Re-Hone, Deck
2:48 - Head Replacement
3:04 - Valve Upgrade
3:22 - Head Work & Fitment
3:48 - Davies Craig Electric Water Pump
5:03 - Data System Completion
6:38 - Coolant Pressure Sensor Faux Pas
7:28 - Garrett Turbo Replacement
8:48 - New #Earnest Wrap
9:42 - Electric Water Pump Control Issue
11:42 - Control Solution
12:06 - Results
12:50 - Spark Plugs
13:53 - More Power
15:40 - Back Together, Track Testing
16:20 - Last Chance Testing
18:11 - In-Car With Gentleman Driver Ben
20:05 - Outro
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#highperformanceacademy #sr86 #engineswap #build #sr20conversion #learntotune #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #gt86 #endurancebuild - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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The amount of work poured into the small details is astounding!
BTW love how Ben high five the shifter :D
the car is looking good! the new wrap is awesome
Cheers mate! - Taz.
Andre you've all done a great job getting everything together. Hope all goes well for all of you.
@@magicianmukoro6807 thanks for the reply but I am not interested.
20VE for yuh money.. can't wait to see u guys out on the track and see what she does 😁✌️
What a gorgeous track setting....
Car's really looking good. Praying all goes well
good job guys !
Good luck and have fun guys!
Stoked to see it's working out better this time around! Car looks really nice too, the red lights are growing on me a little bit. Sounds great and looks fast too. Hope the racing goes well!
Looks great in white! Good luck with the race.
Glad to see you got it sorted and excited to see how this fares against the competition. Wish I could find 2x P11 heads for $1000!
Individual cylinder live monitoring to that depth, gotta love technology
New look is fantastic!
Chur! - Taz.
The new look is awesome🤘 wishing that the new livery will wash the curse away🙏
Great job, I am getting ready to finish up my S14 SR20 and get it tuned. Running old Greddy TD06 set up. Hope things go good for me as they did for you!
With the added horsepower showing up, could that be to the fact of the new piston and change in geometry? Or do you think the head gasket issue was already beginnings to be an issue(just not enough to physically see it) during the dyno run? Either way, more powerful engine is always a good thing. Cheers, good luck and stay safe.
Chur Chur boys...
Love the new look!
Giraffes at a racetrack! Now I've seen everything lol
Good choice of running the EWP.
I've got the pump myself and eliminated the mechanical pump.
But I've got their controller so Its pretty much plug n play.
Good work guys! More power due to new parts working well AND lower ambient temperatures? Good luck in your race season!
It was colder on the dyno but the dyno also corrects for ambient temp and pressure so realistically that shouldn't cause much of a difference - Andre
Nice same color as my FRS
Maybe you could use a fuel pump pwm speed controller for your water pump ?
Sure that require more work as you would need 2 outputs instead of 1 (1 power, 1PWM control), but I think it would be a lot more flexible than the ON / OFF option.
Love it
"Make the sr86 great again" now that's a cause i can get behind!!!!
Sounds great , Hella solid state relays , rated to 30 amps and pwm able , using one to control Dbw on a supercharger bypass
Yes that would work and the MoTeC DHB is essentially just a nicely packaged solid state relay. For now the solution we're using seems to be pretty solid so I'm not sure we need to complicate things further by changing it - Andre
Brilliant! It looks not only looks fast but quute stable. Some cars look like a handful but I'm imagining its quite confidence inspiring and makes you feel able to push its limits. I am biased though SR20VE FTW..
Actually for the moment it's lacking a little grip in the rear end compared to the old setup. This is primarily because we've raised the spring rate significantly to cope with the aero (which we obviously don't have just yet). So for the moment it's quite loose which isn't overly confidence inspiring but it's definitely manageable - Andre
New levels, new devils.
Projected plugs probably mechanically advanced the timing a bit, water pump is probably quite a bit more effecient, but that's still a big jump
As Andre mentioned he was expecting some increase, but not quite this much at such low boost settings. Certainly not unhappy about it though 🤘 - Taz.
The car is fast! I like it! Sr20 on E85 normal makes little over 600hp between 20-24psi so that car is pretty happy!
Yes it's making very good power for the boost level and turbo size! - Andre
Loved This Video, Loved the New Look (by the door on the fender that little Oval could be black where the logo sits lol), Man it's crazy to see how much more power the car is making from an AR 1.0x to .8xx, that's insane and dope lol. @9:58 As to the Electric water pump RE to the wiring courses It did come to mind what if you guys used a relay then i thought nah could a regular relay handle that, it would need to be special wouldn't it & then BOOM you mention a motec relay @10:50 just for that use hahah (Solid state relay hmm nice, are there any webinars on those versus traditional?) . This is dope lol I'd love to visit over there some day man.
Keep up the great content, looking forward to the progress of this car & future HPA videos
shout out to the team who made it all possible 💪
Just to be clear, the change in AR is almost certainly not responsible for the gain in power, and as stated in the video, if anything we would have expected to lose a little top end. There have been a number of minor changes made but none really explain the size of the power gain. That MoTeC DHB really is just a nicely packaged solid state relay - Andre
22hrs until this upload? Awesome, that means 22 more hours working on DOCILE Andre. 😛
#Day180OfContinuousPeerPressureOnAndre
' *cracks whip* ' - Taz.
@@hpa101 He can sleep when he's dead. 😂
Might not be far off if we work him too hard haha - Taz.
@@MafiaboysWorld check out the community page on Sunday, will be a post there that you will be happy to see mate - Taz.
Needless to say, the car looks great.
Diff. oil temp. is most likely due to reaching the torque limit of the unit.
Hope the bugger don't let you down
We actually found an issue with the diff cooling pump. The current draw increased dramatically and then spiked to the point the PMU shut it down. With the diff pump not operating the temps climbed pretty quickly - Andre
@@hpa101 glad it happened in testing, fingers crossed for the next race! :)
Great to see this monster back up and ripping! Interesting bit about the power gains with the new head. Is it possible that the new valve job is flowing that much better than the old setup? The only other thing I could imagine making that much of a power difference is if the mechanical camshaft timing was off a tooth the last time around. Though knowing your attention to detail when building engines I doubt that would have happened. Good luck with your upcoming race meeting!
Im using the same water pump on my VET that gave me over cooling. I ended up using a 3D PWM table using radiator outlet temp as an axis.
Excuse me for not understanding. Does this make the pump run at variable speeds?
Do you have an Instagram?
The PMU didn't like running it PWM and they don't have a solid state relay on hand
What a beast. Makes my wife’s GT86 look a bit Nancy 😂
👍🏼
For the water. Pump I run a Airomotive fuel pump speed controler works good 👍
That's a nice solution! - Andre
Run the pump on the pmu at low temps and a second feed straight from a ecu controlled relay for high draw output effectively bypassing the pmu ,
Extra power , problem in the first cylinder on the dyno last time but didn’t fully show up , show the 2 graphs please
Compression change from the new pistons could be a contributing factor to the increased power?
Plus, the water pump now being electric could help.
Pretty good problem to have, making more power :)
Really impressive stuff there. I hope from now on every thing is plain sailing... your guys deserved it! One question: how did the weight and balance changed compared to the v8?
You’d be gaining a fair bit from the reduced load on the engine from changing to an electric water pump from the mechanical pump. That’s probably where you found gains on the dyno, especially considering you’re using a heap of RPM in it!
I've used many times electric water pump over oem mechanical..... yes there is a difference in horse power but NO .... 8n best case scenario you can see 8-10 whp.
Most of the times you won't see over 5whp.
They do have much bigger difference in horse power..... it's not the water pump.
yes.. but not that much power gain
Thanks guys! Just thought there would be more losses through the water pump!
I'm surprised you guys don't have a pressure transducer on the cooling system, set up with a warning when coolant pressure spikes beyond normal. Simple, easy way to know full stop whether or not cylinder pressure is making its way into the cooling system.
We did.... Unfortunately in an oversight, the positioning of the sensor (which was for ease of installation) meant it was on the suction side of the mechanical pump which in turn renders it close to useless. It's been addressed now though - Andre
@@hpa101 Ahh, that's really interesting, I'm surprised that the positive pressure still didn't overcome the suction side negative pressure
*note to self*
Great content as usual question do yo tune a variable valve lift engine eg early vtec mivec etc the same or is the overlap taken into account? Eg high exhaust temps from fuel and air going into exhaust before exhaust valve closes or is it not an issue thanks
Awesome video. Love the car and engine control setup. I did notice you had the lambda sensor pointing vertical on the turbine outlet. Shouldn't that be placed at a slight angle so as to not heat soak the sensor?
Next step is for some paddles on the steering wheel. Great videos
I don't tend to get too stressed over the sensor location as long as it's above horizontal. It's usually more driven by where we have room to mount the sensor - Andre
Well the Srve engines does originate out of fwd cars only. So maybe the flow of the water cooling jackets internally is suited to cool in a fwd layout considering the g forces in a fwd layout as well and the high revving nature and heat build up of Ve engines as i have an oringanal pulsar vzr sr16ve. The blue top pulsar vzr sr16ve head is a better head than the sr20ve black as it has larger camshafts. Could be too much heat build up at the fire wall as the cool air is forcing the hot air to the rear. Might need a release piont or duct at by the bonnet.
Nicely presented, I like the new graphics. Could you put a bigger pulley on the oem mechanical water pump to allow it to be happy at higher rpm?
Yes, that would have been another option but there are other advantages in moving to an EWP - Andre
considered running the mechanical pump and the EWP? the mechanical pump is less likely to cavitate with the EWP pressurizing it's intake and you can just run the EWP full on >5000rpm or >80c also adds some redundancy to the system.
I'm guessing the mechanical water pump was getting very inefficient up at those high rpms robbing hp. Now you have more even cylinder to cylinder temps = better ring seal. Plus very cold ambient air.
On the rite side of the head there a water port i ran a bleeder on that side fixs my air lock in the head
There should be a build post of this car on the HP Academy forum! :P
Hmm, you're actually not wrong. We were in such a rush with all this we haven't really covered it all in the best way we could. I'll see what I can whip up - Taz.
@@hpa101 This way HPA members could comment and ask any questions or discuss there. Doesn't have to be too in depth, can just be main images and videos on updates being done.
That would be awesome. Parts list etc too. Have built an sr20vet s15 track car so u guys are being my test dummies 🤣 luving the content!
@@hpa101 Please do! I'm working on an SR20vet swap right now so I'd love to learn from your build.
the red head lights have grown on me. I quite like them for a race car
I'm still not sold. At a glance it kind of looks like the car is going backwards 😂 - Andre
Hey Andre, Graham here that had the RS6 down in August... Does the PMU allow PID control for PWM devices? It'd be awesome if you could set a coolant set point with a 2D PID to adjust DC of the water pump to work towards that temperature set point and reduce any potential major temperature oscillations.
Hi Graham, no unfortunately the PMU doesn't provide closed loop PID control - Andre
I wouldn’t have thought it would have that much of an effect, but surely your cold snap has contributed to the power increase??
The dyno power reading is corrected for temperature and pressure, hence the effect should be negligible - Andre
Hey HPA, what changes did you make regarding bleeding the air pocket from the cylinder head? With the radiator being much lower than the head I’m guessing there is a fill/bleed point up near the head?
We modified the filler neck to lift it higher in the engine bay. We also used a vacuum bleeder to bleed up the cooling system but I believe the main change that helped us was the switch to the electric pump. It's hard to prove but we believe the mechanical pump was likely cavitating at 9k - Andre
Wasn’t the head before ported? If it was, did you guys port the replacement head?
Nope, neither head is ported - Andre
Ill do anything to get my grubby aussie hands on some rocker arms from that toasted head..... ANYTHING!
Been thinking about your cooling system problems. Perhaps the filling point(radiator cap) is lower than the tallest point on the head. Do you have an air bleed line from the highest part of the head water jacket back to a header tank that's at radiator pressure? ie like a late ford falcon 6cyl. (ensuring no air pockets in cylinder head)
It's a good suggestion but a consideration we had in mind when we designed the filler location. This does however trip up a lot of people when designing the cooling system - Andre
Hi guys, would pulsewidth modulating threw a relay work? Use the pmu to drive the relay and let the relay deal with the high current, the reduction in current should decrease the heat.
Yes, provided you're using a solid state relay, and realistically this is what a PMU/PDM is. You can't use a conventional relay at the sort of frequencies you need to run for PWM control to be effective. The MoTeC DHB I referenced in the video is essentially exactly this - A nicely packaged high current capable solid state relay (well actually two of them) - Andre
With the combustion chamber did you keep or remove the squish area on the first and second head?
It hasn't so much been removed, however it haas been what I'd. call 'blended' - Andre
At higher boost levels (higher mass air flow) you probably will reduce max power with the smaller exhaust housing, but since your not at max capacity of the turbo the smaller exhaust housing has moved to a combined compressor/turbo to higher efficiency, thus more power for that much mass air flow.
All other things being equal, for the same mass flow from the compressor wheel we will have a higher exhaust back pressure with the 0.83 vs the 1.01 AR housing so I'm not sure how this would explain a higher efficiency. I've performed plenty of dyno tests over the years where we've just switched the housing AR and the typical change in power is usually relatively minor and certainly nothing like we've seen here - Andre
@@hpa101 With the smaller AR housing moving the efficiency curve to the left, it will allow for the compressor to build it's boost with lower exhaust pressure provided the system is still operating at the left of the efficiency curve i.e. haven't reached max efficiency yet. It would be interesting to compare the exhaust manifold pressure and the turbo rpm for a given boost for both AR housings. This data would likely explain the difference.
@@syntropy3020 we ran both engines at identical pressure ratios so that's one fixed point on the compressor map. Our new engine is now making more power at the same pressure ratio which would require more mass airflow from the compressor wheel. This would move us to the right on the compressor map, not the left. Assuming that we were already beyond peak efficiency which is pretty easy to confirm from the GTX3076 GEN II compressor map, compressor efficiency would get worse, not better. But to be honest we'd be splitting hairs over a few percent and that simply doesn't explain 45 whp.
Bare in mind that as discussed we've also changed the valves, the valve seat profile, made a slight modification to the combustion chamber, and moved to a completely different piston design which has resulted in a small increase in compression ratio. The net effect of these changes would be much more likely to explain the additional power we're seeing than switching to a smaller AR turbine housing - Andre
@@hpa101 This is a copy past from a comment I added to "Christopher Cope's" comment regarding your latest Q&A video talking about this.
With not all the exhaust going through the turbine i.e. some is wasted, my thoughts were that the larger housing would not be as efficient for the same low rpm speeds, thus to achieve the desired rpm for the compressor the waste gate would have to stay closed more to force more air through the turbine, thus resulting in higher exhaust manifold pressures for the large housing. It's quiet the paradox. So with the smaller housing giving lower exhaust manifold pressure for that rpm & torque required by the compressor, more power is made with the same mass air flow through the engine. I'm only speculating for this scenario as haven't studied the maps. Of course in all scenarios at higher flow (and rpm) the larger housing would be more efficient. And yes you are probably right, even if this does give more power, it probably doesn't account for all 45hp.
Note that turbine efficiency maps are different to compressor efficiency maps. Turbine efficiency maps are low on the left, and keep getting higher to right. Unfortunately Garrett don't publish their turbine efficiency maps, they just say max is 72%.
Looks like there's a lot of thrust translating through the shifter lever. Is there a mechanical connection between the lever and the mechanisms inside the transmission?
Yes, there's a mechanical connection at the base of the shifter (under neath the transmission tunnel) to the shift linkage on the gearbox - Andre
@@hpa101 Thanks for the reply. It looks to me like there might be too much thrust loading in the transmission. What sort of mounting does the powertrain have, and what might be causing that much thrust loading?
Curious how the EWP is getting along? Did you have to make anymore changes?
The car is still sitting on the hoist at this stage. There has been more ducting work and a wiring overhaul since we now how the time (the car was still OEM loom from firewall back).
We'll post up and update in the coming months once it's back on track. Current plan is to do some testing in the next 2-3 weeks then finish the aero and do some more testing then refining it all for the first race of the season I which I think is in September.
All that around producing courses too, we never stop doing that, easy as 😅 - Taz.
It's better to use 3 way valve instand of reducing coolant flow rate throu the engine block to coontrol the temperature.
By useing 3-way valve you can keep constant flow rate, which help distrubuting heat throu the block, regardless to the coolant temperature.
This is realistically only a concern during the warm up phase. On track at operating temperature, the EWP is at 100% duty - Andre
@@hpa101 Where I come from (industry), if system have to operate at 100% capacity, that's mean is not efficient enough.
I think that cooling system should to be designed to normaly operate at 70% of capacity with 30% margin for extraordynary conditions..
And the main rod bearings King performance are ok or ACL? Which you recommend? Many thanks mate!
We're using king bearings on this build. I've also previously had great results with ACL too though - Andre
High Performance Academy Many Thanks i have installed King too yesterday i hope they work well 😎👍👍
Is the new head running the stock cams or the Kelfords from the previous head?
It's running the same Kelford cams we had in the last head - Andre
Gentlemen - I was watching a previous video where Andre touches on HANS devices. I note Andre says they are a requirement for all NZ motorsports. Having never used one myself, would you boys recommend a HANS device for drag racing? Thanks for you help!
Yes, absolutely. Any form of motorsport where you could have a frontal impact would benefit from a Hans device. I used one back when i was drag racing too - Andre
Good luck! With HKS sparkplug, would the power increase again?
No, I wouldn't expect any more power with a change in plug, assuming that we're not suffering a misfire - Andre
Would you ever run antilag on a track so you don’t waste time going through/out of the corners ?
Antilag is very hard on the turbo and exhaust valves. I try not to run it where possible and you really shouldn't need it for a race track - Andre
Are the cams from the old head in the new head? Could the increase in power be from moving to an electric water pump? I'm sure thats a fair bit of mechanical load removed.
yes some power gain.. but not that much
The cams are identical. An EWP should show some gain in power but I'd guess at a few hp, not 40 + - Andre
@@hpa101 so it's still a mystery? Is there any circumstance where a vehicle can make more power before some crazy catastrophic failure or is the engine now most likely okay, just possessed with a HP hungry ghost?
Do you use the Snap on cooling system bleeder ?
We did this time around - Andre
Would the electric water pump reduce power losses and explain some of the extra power?
Is the gains in power due to better flowing heads? I also don't quite understand if the smaller exhaust housing has anything to do with it or not.
The head is most likely the biggest contributor. There were some minor changes made to the combustion chamber shape for this head but it isn't ported. The aftermarket valves may have helped but these are still stock size - Andre
+ he said the block was decked > a hair more compression
+ the last time he didn't need to keep his head warm > air more dense
Andre, should have gone with a G30-770
There's a bunch of other turbos we could have chosen but any of them would require significant fabrication work which we didn't have time to do - Andre
To fix water pump issues all you gotta do is a pully swap bigger pully slowes the pump
Yes, that would be one solution, however there's plenty of other advantages to an EWP that made it a superior choice for us, particularly given the time frame available to work with - Andre
Send some of those cheap VE heads to me in Melbourne I can't find any here
what size tyres is this car running? hows the grip?
We're running a Michelin 27/65-18 in medium. The car is currently a little loose but we still don't have the aero obvviously. It'll still generate around 1.5 g of lateral load though so it isn't messing around - Andre
I've lost track but why didn't you put a 4g in the other can in the first place.
We got the 86 with the 1UZ already in it, the built 3UZ was late, and we had an SR20 sitting in the 350Z here pretty much ready to go.
We don't have a 4G63 ready to go here, and as a matter of fact, the 3UZ never even made it so while it has been a shit ton of work and a bit of a rollercoaster, the right choice was made as there would have been no content other than an empty engine bay otherwise haha - Taz.
BCR8ES, easy
why not use g30-770 since you have to change the turbo...
Any turbo change would have required re-fabricating a lot of the installation (the compressor cover specifically has had a lot of modifications) and we simply didn't have time - Andre
You think that water pump made that power difference?
There's no way we would attribute all of the gain to the pump. I forget the specifics but I think the multi rib belt that runs the mechanical pump can only transmit something like 10-12 hp before it slips so that kind of becomes the absolute maximum you could ever expect a mechanical pump to absorb. The reality is it's likely to be far less - Andre
This is the car gods punishing you for not putting a built EJ motor in it
I feel our punishment would be harsher if we had gone with the EJ but maybe that's just me 😂 - Andre
@@hpa101 LoL keep up the good work I'm always learning from you guys thank you!
Why didn’t you just put a two Jay-Z?
We didn't have one sitting on the shelf like we did the SR20.
A 2jz would keep us in the same class that the 1uz had us in so it was never anything we ever did or would have considered.
Due to the smaller capacity the SR20 is a lower class where this level of car can be more competitive - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/blog/why-didnt-we-just-put-a-k20-in-it-650hp-sr20ve-swap-sr86-ep-11-build/
where can i get 2 VE heads for 500NZD??? I paid near enough 800GBP for one! Seriously, I'll buy another 2 at that price, if anyone has one HMU.
Facebook marketplace and www.trademe.co.nz in New Zealand - Taz.
Just put k series in it
Send one on down mate, do you have our shipping address? ;) - Taz.
The 17'' Wedssport look so much better :(
Yea we loved the Wedsports. The wheels are actually 'borrowed' off our Racecraft 86 so we're still looking at options for wheels for this car - Andre
V8 guys: "Why would you take a V8 out for a 4 cylinder?"
Everyone Else: "4500rpm of flat power band..."
The other part that is easy to overlook is that the 2.0 turbo puts us in a lower class where we should be more competitive. Of course to be competitive we would still need to get the car to the start line... 😩- Andre
@@hpa101 Wasn't It the finish line being too far away that was the issue? ;P
It was a very unlucky issue though. Did you get the injectors tested to rule out low flow causing a lean condition?
Chicken and the egg, done is done and hopefully it's badder than ever!
That's a hard "Yeah Nah"