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13B Rotary Rich VS Lean AFR's | Our FD RX7 Project | Ep 2 [
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- What's the difference between tuning a rotary engine and a piston engine? Why does it have an extra spark plug?
In this latest update of the FD3S Mazda RX7 project which comes after the recent release of our Adaprtonic rotary tuning content, Andre explains.
Should you run a rich or lean air-fuel ratio (AFR), and what risk does that pose to your exhaust gas (EGT) and engine temperatures? Where in the map can you find some fuel economy and what gains can be had by tuning the leading and trailing spark plugs are also covered along with some ramp runs on the dyno to demonstrate first hand the results.
0:00 - Adaptronic In, Brap Brap
0:25 - Rotary Myths
0:57 - Project Recap
1:54 - Different, Different, But Still The Same?
2:25 - Fuelling - Run Em Rich
3:48 - Economy vs EGT
4:31 - High Boost
5:35 - AFR Targets - Road vs Race
7:44 - Ignition Timing
8:41 - Twin Spark Plugs
10:27 - Why Is There A Trailing Plug?
11:34 - Trailing Split Table
13:06 - Trailing Plug Tuning Example
15:18 - If in Doubt...
15:25 - Main Ignition Map
20:58 - Worth Optimising, But Be Safe
22:37 - When to STOP Chasing Horsepower
23:11 - Still The Same 10 Step Process
26:14 - Ramp Run
28:22 - 2nd Run, Leaning It Out
29:03 - Take Away
29:45 - Learn Yourself
32:17 - Free LIVE Lesson
Want to learn how to tune EFI? Start here instantly, and for free: bit.ly/EngineT...
Website: www.hpacademy.com
Contact: support@hpacademy.com
Merch shop: bit.ly/MerchHPA
#highperformanceacademy #learntotune #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #turblown #vinnyfab #fd3s #3dprinting
![Our FD RX7 Project | Ep 1 [OFF THE RECORD]](/img/n.gif)
The Adaptronic Rotary tuning Worked Example is LIVE! If you already own the Standalone Tuning course it's yours for FREE. If not, what are you waiting for? Get the course and from there any future examples added will be yours for free too 😉- bit.ly/Rotary101 - Taz.
For someone who self tunes my own rotary's, this info is GOLD. THX for posting. 👊
I dont even have a rotary, still watched whole video, very informative
Cheers Glen, glad you found it interesting too :) - Taz.
So cool to see the igniton sweep test done on a rotary, have been curious what it would look like for a while. Cheers for the awesome content!
Cheers for watching Anders! More to come :) - Taz.
Ive been tuning rotaries for 10 years and my one tip to piston tuners is always use boost to make power,leave ignition map well alone regarding chasing numbers.
If you find det using ignition timing it’s probably too late.i use the same handful of ignition maps for all cars.and just pull timing on heavily ported cars.
What's the max timing I should run on a 13b stock port 6 port turbo with 9.7 compression at 7-10psi on 93 octane?
Been waiting for years to see the adaptronic worked example - thanks so much for keeping on expanding these courses!
Beautifully done, Andre. Looking forward to our discussion later on. Now you've seen the drawbacks of the Adaptronic unit first-hand.
Cracks me up that you rip on the adaptronic everywhere. Must be some bad blood between you and Andy haha. Having said that, I switched from adaptronic Modular to Haltech Elite and never looked back 👍. Haltech is a much more polished product and has great support for rotaries now. Not sure why hpa stuck with the Modular for this series.
@@dawggpie absolutely. It's a Beta-level product that wasn't complete before being sold by the boatload. The company was all marketing. Andy and Mark are fantastic at Adaptronic. It's not the staff, it's the LACK of organization of the company in itself. Few people wearing too many hats. When it comes to basic operation, these ECUs are just fine beyond some oddities and continued failed MAP sensors. Tuning every single day and making the community a better is what it's all about...
@@RGHTBrainDesignDrive maybe true, but they deserve credit for being long time supporters of the rotary community back when the only real ecu choice was the 90s tech PowerFC. The industry has come a long way in recent years with much better products now which is why it made sense for Andy's engineering talent to merge up with the resources of haltech. 👍
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR MORE ROTARY CONTENT!!! Keep it coming!
This video was cool. I’m still fooling around with my rx7 and a haltech e8. Thanks!
Absolutely amazing video, so much information!
loved it keep it up!
Cheers!!
Just looking to start tuning mine, your video was great. Keep up the good work
Started with Haltech F2 then F3 in 1992. Then later PFC. Lot of cars, lot of sore throat weeks.
Rotary content! Thanks HPA appreciate you remembering us on the dark side.
Another fantastic video. You are a legend!
Good knowledge there aye. I have a series 3 RX-7 and the rear plate recently cracked in the usual spot. Due to detonation I believe. Thankfully it looks like there is no other damage!
Might try and upgrade the old microtech LT8S to a new Link I think aye🤙🏼🤙🏼. With plenty of safety features haha
this video is amazing thank you guys for the awesome content! I'm looking into different ecu options right now for my fd and this adaptronic software looks really appealing for significantly less than a haltech
The knowledge drop here is awesome :D
Ahhh-ha! I have been waiting for this rotary goodness. Sincerely, the pissed kiwi rooster at Goodwood 2019
Side note: I have been badgering the top lad Mr. Whitley to gauge his interest in casting semi-PP manifold runners for a fly-by wire setup - collaboration for unique channel content?
Hey Stuart! It was nice-ish to meet you. 😘 We will always listen to a collaboration pitch, but only very rarely does everything work out. Cheers - Ben
Must have been a punishing experience for you gents! Understandable. Winter + Covid lockdown....will model up on SolidWorks and check the feasibility before jumping the gun. Loving how your content is developing - Stu
Great info as always Andre!
Great video!
Awesome video as usual 👍
If someone has removed the OMP and premixing the fuel, does this require a different tuning strategy?
No it doesn’t
The fuel and ignition targets don't differ if that's what you want to know - Andre
Fantastic video . Loving the content.
Much appreciated!
I wish someone would experiment with plasma injection ignition on rotary engines. It seems like it could be a key to seriously bumping the thermal efficiency of a rotary.
Could you go more into detail about this ?
@@AnnoyedSquid A small chamber with ports separates the combustion chamber from the spark plug which is filled with a rich mixture. When the spark plug fires its energy as well as fuel burn in the small chamber, it turns to a high pressure plasma which sprays out the ports as jets into the main combustion chamber, covering most of the area and simultaneously igniting the whole mixture at once.
A conventional single or single/trailing spark causes a flame front that takes time to propagate and has to fit into the period of time during the expansion cycle to extract the most energy.
A rotary has a particularly long burn due to the shape of its combustion chamber, as well as much less wiggle room for advanced ignition timing. So a rotary under more then light load typically sees half of it its combustion event go out the exhaust without extracting work.
My hypothesis is that due to the nature of plasma injection significantly compressing combustion cycle event, that particularly in a rotary, much more energy as work would be extracted by the rotor.
czcams.com/video/n6Eutw0WU3U/video.html
Absolutely fantastic content. Thank you for the well produced and concise video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Absolutely bitchen content thank you so very much !!
Got to remember with a rotary engine it takes 3 revolutions to complete the 4 stroke cycle. Meaning it takes more time to complete each cycle compared to 2 revolutions for a piston. Timing is based on degrees, not time. Combustion is based on time not degrees
I was about to say no, it takes only one rotation, but then I realised that it only achieves one shaft rotation per revolution by using three different faces. Something interesting to think about.
So pumped about the rotary content! Already watched all the worked example content in the practical tuning course. (100% recommend this course, along with EFI fundamentals!) My only issue is the Adaptronic makes it so all the work with the staged injection is done automatically but that’s not the case for all ECU’s. The rotary is a perfect example to go further into this, any plans to do so?
Haltech have an update in the testing phase to run fully automatic staging if that happens to be your ecu, exciting stuff! I struggled with lean outs for a while during staging but finally got it nailed. Road tuning defs makes the job harder
@@And3rs88 unfortunately I’m one of very few rotary guys using AEM Infinity. I haven’t had an issue yet, but I’ve only started tuning the low load areas so far.
Brilliant video 👌
Glad you enjoyed it
If you aren't able to rely on knock-ears to find your upper timing limit, what strategy would you recommend to increase timing from lowish basemap levels at high loads? As obviously we can't do the same torque dynoing to find our knock limit as we can in the vacuum areas like you displayed.
Do you use EGT as a the reference and just leave timing alone once you reach a safe level?
Torque production. If more timing doesn't give more torque go back to the least timing that gave closet to the most torque.
@@jarlnieminen4307 don't think that strategy will work at higher loads. You'll detonate before hitting peak torque depending on fuel type and load.
@@dawggpie that's not how it works. Detonation destroys torque you will stop getting good increases in power before Detonation occurs. Also the hole point of listening for knock doesn't safeguard you against Detonation it just tells you when to turn back. Set timing the way shown in the video under boost stop adding timing as soon as it platoes theres no need to keep going until you go past the optimal timing curve. Perhaps there's an equation that could be applied as a guide to how far you can pushing the incremental changes to chase those few extra numbers.
👌👌👌
I just realised the rear wiper with no sunroof. Thats a first for me.
i need that dyno man!😅
I just watched the full course. Why don’t you use the “trace” function (T on keyboard) in the fuel map instead of logging each ramp run?
The trace function will show where you've been in the maps which is valuable, however the trace function alone won't tell you the rest of the information you need such as the target vs measured lambda. If you're using a lambda plot on your dyno then yes, the trace function would be sufficient though. It just depends how you want to use the software - Andre
@@hpa101 it actually does show the measured lambda vs target as well as the percent it’s off by. I’d you click on a cell that the trace has gone through. It’s a very small green fine print at the top of the fuel map window
excellent content. what consideration would you have when tuning with OMP removed and only running premix in the gas.
You would have to be careful since it reduces the effective octane of your fuel, so perhaps pull away a few more degrees of timing at high load? Other than that, premix doesn’t do anything in particular that the OMP pumping normal motor oil into your engine doesn’t do, so it should still be largely the same.
Will you have any tuning introductions for FuelTech ECU or do you think it carries over pretty well to Fuel tech and haltech? Thanks!
We are doing FuelTech with this car next, BUT, I think what is already there using the Adaptronic (and Link ECU in the members lessons) and a rotary platform are going to help you with either your FuelTech or Haltech already to be honest - Taz.
Just while I'm here too, picked the car up from the painters yesterday, just had the wing painted and fitted, looks mint - Taz.
👌👍🍺
I believe most tuning mistakes are from tuners that turn rotaries too much like a piston engine. There are a lot of idiots out there and you got to be careful
You're pretty much spot on - Too much timing and too lean is a recipe for a short life expectancy from any rotary engine - Andre
I still think it's magic.
Where's the microtech?? 😥 the only thing holding me back from purchasing this course. Good to see rotary tuning going in now rotary tuning with microtech. The standard combo
most of these platforms have all the same premise
👍👍💪💪🏍🏍
any plans to go through adaptronic's manifold heat soak temp correction?
Yes, we'llk cover this ion detail in a members webinar at some point, along with the transient enrichment strategy - Andre
What thermo sensors do you guys use?
nice
maybe KW Academy instead of HP?
it stands for high performance academy, not horse power academy lol
"Hi, I'm Andre from the Kigh Werformance Academy." Not sure I'm feelin it Gerad 😉 - Taz.
What happens if you go lean enough to reduce engine temperature like you can for say lean burn cruising like some factory piston engines.
In a rotary engine you'd struggle to get reliable combustion if you tried running on the lean side of stoich - Andre
@@hpa101 what causes that issue? Is it having the spark plug recessed? Perhaps rotors would benefit from direct injection sharing the same recess as the spark plug.
@@hpa101 I have personally experienced this on my rx8. I leaned back the idle to 15.6 afr and also tried light cruising using this AFR. The egt's did not spike up at all, same 800-820C, same sensor same everything but the afr. Timing remained the same at ~30degrees. I have not pushed past 15.6, it was just an experiment not worth destroying an engine for.
Ngl when i heard your voice i thought you were an Australian that was high
Brap brap homies
How true are the unreliability memes of the brap machine?
Only as true as backyard builds. There are plenty of 1st gens (SA/FB) RX7s and older rx5/3's with hundreds of thousands of kms/miles on original engines.
They are just more sensitive to poor maintenance, heh...
@@FukU2222 Don't be so sure, I've seen HEAPS of rotor combos get destroyed just by poor tuning, from reputable engine shops. It's only as good as the person who has the knowledge. That's why places like PAC Performance, South Coast Rotary, ProMaz and a few other shops have great reputations. 👍
Makes sense..seem too many car guys who save up and afford a car then maintenance becomes an issue...especially for the young boys like me 😅😅😅
@@DhavalDedhia The main problem is people see a car, want it, then don't know how to do anything to it or maintain it because the mechanics are so difficult to them. It's not just young, old people feel the same in areas. Like a guy who grows up on carburettors then has to learn how to patch an ECU loom in, it's like witchcraft to them. 😁👍