[Discussion] What is the Future of Path of Exile (1)?
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- #Pathofexile2 #exilecon #pathofexile
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Discussion Timestamps
00:00-1:07 Discussion Introduction
1:08-12:47 What categories are in limbo now?
12:48-21:18 POE 1 doesn't need to become "more like POE 2" now
21:19-28:47 Can we have peak POE 1 back?
28:48-33:57 POE 1 MUST be distinct from POE 2
33:58-38:09 A list of all the POE 1 nerfs to bring back
38:10-45:11 What does POE 1 look like while waiting for POE 2?
45:12-50:19 Is POE 1 just waiting to die now?
50:20-52:52 Modes of playing POE 1?
52:53-56:26 Discussion Questions
Forum Posts of interest:
POLL: Did Exilecon increase or decrease your overall hype for POE and POE 2?
www.pathofexil...
What happened to One Game - Two Campaigns?
www.pathofexil...
Since POE1 is now its own thing can we have all this back ?
www.pathofexil...
People who have nothing to do with PoE actively argue against PoE1
www.pathofexil...
POE 2 Ruthless mode
www.pathofexil...
Chris Wilson and Neon answers some burning questions
www.pathofexil...
The simple truth about Poe1 and Poe2
www.pathofexil... - Hry
Regarding PoE2's endgame: they have said they will be carrying over some of the existing PoE 1 league mechanics (maybe Legion, Ritual, and others, for example) into the PoE2 atlas. So they will be somewhat bootstrapping their way into having a decent amount of content, not be starting completely fresh. I do wonder if they will continue to add in successful PoE 1 leagues going forward though, and in general, to what extent the teams will cross-pollinate ideas between the games.
I recommend looking at Subtractem's interview with Chris & Mark post-Exilecon. They don't go into this too much, but Chris does make some reassuring noises in this direction.
I did watch, and at this point, there is almost nothing GGG can say to build back trust. We need actions, not words, to demonstrate that the words they have said will actually be done.
Personally i think they shouldn't put too much effort into porting leagues as a lot is baggage for the current poe, hopefully they cherrypick the good ones 🤞🤞
On a real life level GGG has a huge team working on POE 2. After release they either start a new title, fire a bunch of talent or put say 1/3 onto POE 1. This is almost optimistic that they could support both games, even to having new endgames every 18 months.
Hey im on the interwebs! 😂 but love the points you make. GGG has more to answer now than they did before exilecon. Since im not so sure that "ggg will just figure it out"
On the copium 'after PoE 2 is released, there will be more dev resources sluiced back to PoE 1!' -- this would be very unusual in business. Once you gut the support for a product or product line once, you shift manpower back only if the successor was a failure and you have to go back to selling your old product because the market just doesn't like the new one. Usually you'd want to keep the old line in maintenance mode, and nudge your customers towards the new line, so that you can pull the plug on the old one once and for all, the sooner, the better. And keeping the CEO himself as the lead dev, as is the case here, means that no employee has to live with being the caretaker of a dying product, but gets to work with and show his or her abilities in making the new revenue maker. That keeps the employees looking forward and having positive rewards in front of them -- there's not much glory to be earned in helming a product with more-or-less explicit internal expiration date.
So I would definitely not count on GGG not moving resources on to the next game after they aren't needed in PoE 2 any more. What's the rationale in moving devs back to PoE1? So that it can compete better with their new flagship? It would be self-defeating to do anything to make PoE 1 look better at and around the time PoE 2 releases, which could be, say, the next 2-3 years?
New discussion video hype
I think the s*** hit the fan a couple of years ago, remember when Chris had to write that he would personally approve of league content going forward. I guess that is when almost all company resources went to POE 2.
Kinda real life too, they get to leave "Standard" behind, leave the pre purchased unique/ div cards etc behind, opening up the design space to remove div cards from the game and eliminate old uniques that players purchased.
Also with the split the one thing I wish they would do is just revert PoE1 back towards Ritual league. (Or even before metamorph with the 10x HP rebalance patch but thats a pipe dream)
Jonathan was asked about when the separate games decision was made and it was apparently only a few months after the first exilecon. (which makes all the trash patches even worse in hindsight because they already knew what they were doing was contradictory.)
As to what justified it, I'll skip the mumbo jumbo he served and say it outright: over-scope. It's literally the most rookie mistake of gamedev. In the midst of the development of an expansion that ended up unmanageable and too different to deliver it as a patch. Leaving them with two choices: cut the excess fat or make it standalone.
Ironically it is like powercreep, since it is also called featurecreep. For a company who's striving to work against the powercreep they implemented, it is quite the funny situation they've put themselves into.
About the pressure around trial of the ancestors, and the PoE2 hype train too now that I think about it, I think it is somewhat planned in reaction to D4 fiasco and the mass migration of new 'exiles' that will come with it. It feels like they're counting on a playerbase renewal/replacement, from that influx of people who probably weren't that much into arpgs before but commited 70$ into the purchase of D4, being utterly disappointed and giving this f2p game a try.
The numbers of this new league start will be a testament to the validity of this strategy.
About the overall slowed down pace and nerfed power, I think it was Mark (neon) who spoke about it in the post-exilecon interview with subtractem, he explained that currently they are inherently limited in introducing further scaling because they're already close to integer variables maximum value. (they actually already are, bosses reach the 2B hp through delve scaling but that's beside the point)
He mentioned an interesting example, the dot cap people have been hiting these past few leagues was actually already reached few leagues ago and they apparently reworked the system a bit(I don't remember reading anything about it in patchnotes), but people still found a way to reach it soon after that.
So it isn't just about design philosophy, there are actual software limitations. But I wonder if it isn't just an excuse, they could find a workaround if they truly wanted to. It could be the perfect justification to impose 'The Vision'.
In my guild i was the guy who tried to keep the moral up in the past 2 years, whenver changes were made that the community was critical of. While I personally prefer the split of Poe 1 and 2, since the changes pointed towards a game being something i would like less than what poe 1 used to, but I have no trust in GGG reverting any changes. This is the what they want the game to be like and we have to deal with it. PoE has a unique zoomy style that other than maybe chronicon, no other game really allows you to achive. People might be joking about the comparison, but the reasons i play PoE are closer to vampire survivors than Dark Souls. With the current information PoE2 might replace Grim dawn or Last Epoch as a game i play when im done with the league, but it doesnt look like it will scratch the same itch.
Exilecon this year didnt help at all, since it left more questions on the table, than it answered and not in a good kind of way where im excited to play it, but in the same way i try to decipher crypic marketing speech from companies i trust less than GGG (or at least used to).
They gonna take all the good ideas into poe2 and milk poe1 for money until game dies.
Thanks for keeping it real in the current hype filled content rush.
I'm not trying to be a sourpuss or negative nancy. Just trying to share what I'm thinking and processing with all the info.
Thing is, in business, sometimes the best you can do is be vague and then, later, you can point to what you said being easily misinterpreted and that you'll try to be clearer about future communication. Which feels nasty when you're in the receiving end.
One thing not mentioned here in the video was that there as the two teams were announced, the leads of PoE 2 team were not Chris W. Now, that could mean that PoE 2 won't have gameplay like Chris W. wants: gear from gambling and drops, slow, tedious, underpowered gameplay, like you can get from a dozen other ARPGs out there. We've known for years and years that Chris W. doesn't want pseudo-deterministic crafting, and dislikes characters that are either immortal or kill mobs so fast they are functionally immortal.
This means that, if we don't think we're seeing more player power in crafting in PoE 2 at this point, if we aren't seeing more zoom-zoom, both the games could well be headed for the slow waddle and tedious chipping of hit points off mobs that other ARPGs offer. PoE 1 starts from a much higher point, but as we see from ruthless, it doesn't take too many changes to clip the wings, eh?
And we shouldn't be surprised about the direction towards the centre of ARPG market. That's what happen quite often if you start from a corner: there's no ARPGs zoomier than zoomy PoE 1. You gain no new customers from going zoomier. However, if you go towards the centre of the market, you can keep your zoom-zoom addicts while cannibalising other games.
The problem is, PoE built the player base from offering insane builds, wacky interactions, all that gear -- if you didn't craft it, you probably bought what as the second best outcome of someone else's crafting profect. Where is the tipping point where we old players stop playing? Will the new players keep buying supporter packs year after year, or hop from game to game, paying box price for D4 and playing PoE2 for free inbetween D4 seasons?
Really good points that I had not thought about in that way. Thanks for sharing!
@@GoodGuyGaming3 Thank you! I'm still in the in-game guild, but not on discord, will rectify that.
The more I think about it, the more it looks like Guild Wars 1-2 situation. The old game is on maintenance mode (to this day?), but all resources are poured to the flagship product. Who wouldn't put everything on the flagship product? Especially now that PoE2 won't be held back by PoE1 legacy solutions.
And, thinking like a manager -- being moved from PoE2 back to PoE1 would be, in effect, a demotion. Demotion makes your worker lose motivation. This makes me think that PoE1 will get some 'flexi-team' that will jump in from time to time. Having Chris as PoE 'lead dev' means that, you, know, the CEO can be a dev when he wants to revisit the early days...
Well we know there will be new leagues for PoE as they themselves said leagues for PoE and PoE2 will be staggered. So this "game is going to maintenance mode" is a bit of a joke.
I want to say that I am more optimistic...but I would be saying it while still blasting in the second last week of the league with a poisonous concoction build that deletes worlds.
Watched the whole thing, going to make a couple of comments. Cannot tell you it's all going to be fine because GGG keep on saying words that do not match "the vision" which the game has been moving towards over the last few years.
I've played Poe for since the open beta, I like the current game.
All Poe needs to do is make more crazy chase items and I'll play, 4 leagues in and I still fail my obtain a mage blood project. "Gotten there nearly twice lol" it gets worse because my rule is quit mid league and if I lose I must delete the last character I made, including the items.
Made a recoup 150 life regen ring with t1 one fire and max life....it was almost mirror quantity, It was a monster and I had to delete it, because of the rules.
I think a lot of this would had felt a lot nicer if we had gotten a road map for poe 1 at exilecon or at least a hey guys we know with this split some of you will be confused with what the direction for poe 1 will hold but we are not completely sure just yet other then we want to fully support it and we plan to make a road map for the future of the game and plan to share what we are thinking by the end of next league. That would have helped a ton.
The key to a successful POE 1 will be a passionate lead who has a love for the old game. I hope they can do it, I doubt the POE 2 will be fun for me, I loved being able to farm for 5 weeks so I could buy OP gear and destroy the game. It would be great to see that come back.
I'm done :)
Thanks for your comments Paul. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and express your feelings at the moment.
poe 1 will die out slowly as poe 2 swallows up more and more players and focus shifts to supporting poe 2 more and more. they even stated that scale of poe 1 will be dialed back
The sentiment that wacojitsu and many others have about "Bring us back all the power" is understandable but a bit misguided. We have broken the damage cap in PoE in the past by stacking Poison so high the damage wraps around to 0 etc. What is it exactly that we want back? People are talking like things have always been better in the past with no regards to past problems that are now fixed. It's easy to say "bring back this and that" and it's quite understandable to wish for such things but which point of PoE development was the objectively best "stop here and we will all be happy" -moment? It doesn't exist. Even if we rollbacked all the nerfs and kept all the buffs there would still be interactions that aren't in the game just becase of items that have had a complete rework, ascendancies that have been reworked etc. The only solution to bring back an exact point in time would be a rollback, which would come at the cost of losing everything that's newer. Pointless
People are effectively asking for the game to be balanced how the community wants but there is absolutely no concensus on what the community actually wants. I can see singular things like Synthesis table and Harvest being reworked back. Or recombinators and crucible. But ascendancies, skill tree, unique items... I don't think so
They'll try to fix PoE1 where they can, but there's a lot of stuff that requires too much changes and different tradeoffs.
I think you're putting way to much weight on this "preparing for PoE2", they want to reduce power creep for many reasons.
The much better name for Ruthless is slow.
The are so many reasons for splitting PoE into two games, that I almost felt relieved when I heard about it at the Exilecon. First and foremost: moving all the assets to the new game would be a pain. But let's face it GGG wanted to release a new game that allows them to different things (less loot but more viable; less zoom zoom clear and more battle feel; etc.). Not everyone will like it and they know it. It doesn't mean that PoE 2 will be bad, far from it. But they need to introduce a grace period where people will slowly convert AND steer the game in the direction of player needs. GGG is heavy on content reuse, so I believe that they will try to get as much things done both in PoE 1 and 2 ... but they'd rather prefer to support only one game, I am sure of it. Maybe it's better to ask GGG: if PoE 1 provided the same amount of money as today but PoE 2 did twice as much, would you consider keeping PoE 1 alive? What if the rates would be 0.5*current vs 3*current?
From what I've seen I'll still be playing poe. Poe2 looks like diablo more then it does poe. Slowed down sence. I love poe because of the game play. It's annoyed me they have split the games. That's gonna split the player base up hardout. Real shame.
I think this "fragmenting the playerbase" is less of an issue. League of Legends released ARAM and thats all people play. Now Team Fight Tactics exists. Now Arena (2v2v2v2) was made but no one is worried this will fragment the LoL player base.
And yet dominion, twisted treeline got axed. I havent played lol seriously for years now but if one of those come modes will come back? Nostalgia and design you connected to have critical value.
Fragmenting the player base in league changes queue times. The "main" game of league proves the point in the opposite direction you are making. LOL has its biggest version (SR esports) and then several supported modes. LoL is a franchise as well now, not just a singular game. Fragmenting the player base in PoE splits markets, communities (guilds), and theory crafting.
@Guy_Vidal those got axe'd for the same reason as PoE battle Royale.
Waiting 10 min for a twisted treeline match only to face the same pre-made my friends and I just fought twice before. We basically joked it was a best of 3.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 I'm actually curious how massive Aram is because everyone in all of my other community discords when I hover random people "playing lol" it almost always says "in ARAM".
But I do sort of see what your saying cause I know DoTA split off from Warcraft 3 and well...we know which genre survived.
The games are really going to be competing with each other regarding league content.
Future skill/support gems will probably be shared between them unless the additions cater completely to that style of play. Otherwise, "why isnt that gem in the other game" will be common as leagues change.
I will say that i believe they will bring poe and 2 closer together until they overlap and can become one. Hopefully it doesnt become a legacy game stuck in maintenance, which is highly unlikely simply since they intend to keep adding league mechanics.
I been saying this for years now poe2 is killing poe 1 . And now this is happening . A game run by bunch of nerds they were lucky to have the success they made this far . Fake promices un finished and half backed leagues . Bad bad cheap product in general . I cant still belive the scam they pulled in a very legal way 😂😂😂 . They basically fooled us made us suffer for 4 years in the name of a better poe . Total BS if u ask me . I want to be much harsher but when u look at their competition . Its sad man . Its not about making a good game any more . Its about money now ...
There are many things I would comment on it but I will just firstly congratulate you on the series. A pleasure to watch your videos as always.
Secondly I will just state how I see things turning out for PoE 1: I think ggg will keep developing and supporting it until they feel like they converted as much of the community as they can. As time goes by I think more and more of the poe2 "haters" will decide to give it a go due to various reasons: boredom, repeated exposure to content around it, power creep coming to PoE2, etc... When GGG will come to the conclusion "everyone left in the poe1 community that hasn't yet tried poe2 never will" and poe2 is it's own thing with it's own active community, we shall find out what their poe1 retirement approach will be.
There are way too many problems and adversity ggg will have to face during the time both games are active. some of it like asking for features from poe2 to be ported to poe1 stemming from ignorance or inability/lack of desire to understand that some things are just not portable due to various limitations. Others... more nuanced. Like I can't imagine the amount of reddit rage we will get when in one release cycle PoE2 gets a super solid league and PoE1 gets something like Kalandra. There will be no way to reassure everybody that will be yelling "poe2 is getting all the cool ideas while we get variations on tormented spirits" that is not the case.
For me as a player and PoE1 enjoyer, I just hope by the time this happens that PoE2 has gained enough power creep to make me want to play it. If not... it was an amazing ride :)
P.S. Based on what ggg said (i dont know if u missed it or you don't trust them on it) they knew they have to make 2 separate games when they put together the Act 2 demo/showcase for PoE2. It was if I remember right the first question Octavian addressed to Jonathan after the day 1 main pannel presentation. As a reference (cause my memory was skewed a bit) I went back and searched when the A2 video was released and it appears it was showcased during the livestream reveal of PoE 3.14 Ultimatum. Which for me, while I do see discussions of future nerfs (cough 3.15 cough) being necesry for poe1 as its own game, the fact that they didn't communicate " hey guys here is the a2 demo also... we are getting to a way bigger scope with this shit and we are thinking that we have make an actual sequel" leaves me with the nagging question in the back of my mind "was this or that or the other really necessary or are we just lab rats in a human experiment for a product we never asked for". And that doesn't feel quite right.
I feel really disconnected from this whole discussion. In my view poe 1 is in the best state it has ever been in. If you look at player numbers it is the highest it has ever been. This narrative that poe 1 isn't as good as it was before is just coming out from a loud minority because i don't see the evidence anywhere that the game quality or popularity is down as i pointed before it is the opposite.
Yup, and that's a fair take. I recognize I may be in the minority, but there are some of us who delight in zoom zoom big rewards that have been much of the ganeplay from years gone by. My opinion doesn't matter in any way any more or less than anyone else. I'm just amazed at how many people who have played PoE and enjoyed the game from 2016-2021 see current PoE (and the direction of PoE 2) as anything similar.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 i sympathize with people feeling they are losing the game they like and that they are not being heard, but unfortunately this is the nature of live service games. They always change , can't stay the same forever and sometimes the direction will not be to some people's liking . It sucks to be over ruled because obviously the game is getting more popular reaffirming the direction they are going in. The only way they will reserve direction is if the numbers reflect the dissatisfaction not just forum posts.
Too true. Very well said. I appreciate our conversation on the topic today!
The more I think about the split, the more sense it makes, but the more I hate it.
Ggg-tencent studio has only one game, which isn't standard in the industry. But from the player perspective I do find it scummy that they invested so much resources people gave them for a different product they promised.
Saying PoE2 is just like Ruthless makes no sense to me.
Ruthless artificially slows down players and reduces player power without changing anything else. Of course most players are not gonna like that.
While in PoE2, the enemies, the environments, the whole game is designed around the player being a bit slower, its a completely different thing.
PVP In poe was fun
when the league got boring you could do a special build for pvp and go to the arena to torment other players)
Well im afraid i whont like poe 2 im a zoomer even tho im a boomer i what back to buffed winterorb and bv days not in to The ruthless part
Oh man, I miss some good Ole Winter Orb shenanigans
is it a bad thing if poe1 dies in a few years? Nothing lasts forever and change can be a scary thing but tbh PoE2 looks quite fun and up to date game.
Not bad for anyone who adapts and enjoys PoE 2. Just bad for those of us who have enjoyed PoE and won't or don't enjoy the direction of the game currently.
I ask, but why? Do we need to go kylo Ren, kill the past bury it.
Runescape/wow.classic/D2R have shown that you can honor legacy games and just let people play them in peace. Even Microsoft buying out Activision, one of the first things they did was turn back on all the legacy CoD servers again.
GGG went downhill after tencent. Who could have tought.
This is not discussion.
24:39 How can you ask that question about trust? It's now confirmed they came to conclusion developing things they want to develop as 2nd campaign under the same engine is impossible and they needed to redo a lot of things. It's obvious that during game design, things change. For real, what is this take?
27:22 Where does it leave PoE 1? There is enough time gap between both campaigns to fill with content. Both games will be developed.
I don't know what's the point of this video. To serve as proxy for complaints from people wanting to play Diablo?
Surely this video has a lot of negatives in it. Just simplify things like this: Now we have PoE 1 for zoom zoom, PoE 2 for dark soul + challenging gameplay. As for the split, they promised that at the end of PoE 2 development we will have impactful content for PoE 1 again. This is a huge win for everyone.
I thought a bit about the effects on trading on PoE 1. Initially, I think less people in PoE 1 means we dont have a much-active trading in the trading site, but if we look at this in a different way, suppose that PoE 2 does not exist, if people dont like the league, trading will be the same because no one plays it.
Again, now we have both games, many contents to play and enjoy. Why judge it so hard when you even havenet play it, am I right friends?
@@phinguyen6399 Let these games exist and lets not mind them. Just get rid of fusings from PoE 1 and suddenly the world will become better place.
I have zero desire to play Diablo. Been playing and enjoying PoE since 2013, and playing it as my main game from 2016-2022. Thank you for your comment. Cheers mate.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 You and a few of people in the internet are covering PoE news, and that's a blessing for PoE community.
This PoE 2 announcement really put people into confusion, but I think we should give our Devs time for the answers because they promised us whole new end game and a bunch of goodies. More negatives means more damage to the PoE community, especially when nothing is in the clear ( more than the splitting thing ). D4 opened an opportunity, GGG will know what to do with it.
Let us be patient~