Telling Stories with Systems
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- čas přidán 11. 05. 2015
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When you think of "interactive stories", you might think about games with branching narratives, like The Walking Dead. But a new wave of games is using systems and random content to deliver wholly unique stories, every time you play.
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance):
Life is Strange (Dontnod Entertainment, 2015)
The Wolf Among Us (Telltale Games, 2013)
The Walking Dead: Season One (Telltale Games, 2012)
80 Days (inkle, 2014)
Assassin's Creed Unity (Ubisoft Montreal, 2014)
Mass Effect 3 (Bioware, 2012)
Heavy Rain (Quantic Dream, 2010)
inFamous (Sucker Punch Productions, 2009)
BioShock Infinite (Irrational Games, 2013)
Civilization V (Firaxis Games, 2010)
XCOM: Enemy Unknown (Firaxis Games, 2012)
Crusader Kings II (Paradox, 2012)
Far Cry 4 (Ubisoft Montreal, 2014)
Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor (Monolith Productions, 2014)
Westerado: Double Barreled (Ostrich Banditos, 2015)
This War of Mine (11 bit studios, 2014)
Don't Starve (Klei Entertainment, 2013)
The Sims (Maxis, 2000)
Battlefield Hardline (Visceral Games, 2015)
BioShock (Irrational Games, 2007)
A Way Out (Hazelight, 2018)
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Naughty Dog, 2009)
Music used in this episode:
Crosses, José González (Life is Strange)
Clementine Suite (The Walking Dead)
Main Theme (The Wolf Among Us)
Elizabeth Peace (Civilization V)
The Gravewalker (Shadow of Mordor)
Theme (Westerado)
Credits (The Wolf Among Us)
Clip credits:
"Wolf Among Us Woodsman Interrogation" - Blue Sandvich
• Video
"BioShock Infinite: The Making Of" - PlayStation Access
• BioShock Infinite: The...
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BFw/ - Hry
Best thing that happened to me in Shadow of Mordor: During the last 'Free the slaves' mission, a captain walked into the area after I was almost done, and the guys I'd already freed beat him to death.
Wow, that sounds terrible.
I had something similar happen in my play through: This big meat head named Gimub the Tank had ambushed me during a mission and we ended up fighting on top of this cliff where some slaves were working. The slaves beat down their overseers and (there must have been a dozen of them) they ran over and jumped Gimub (I might have helped some). Good times.
A couple things happened to me, but I think the best was some random captain called Akoth Black-Thorn ended up being dominated by me and recruited as a bodyguard for one of my warchiefs. I didn't realize what this meant until another captain challenged my warchief, and of course the warchief brought along his bodyguards.
Essentially, the fight went like so: The other captain and my warchief kinda exchanged blows, but for some reason (despite the captain being of lower level than my warchief) the fight was looking pretty even. However, of even lower level than the opponent was Akoth. This did not stop Akoth from going up to the guy, taking this gigantic poisoned spear that he had and just skewering the guy from the gut before launching into an animation which ended with his opponent being VERY dead.
Pretty cool, right? Well, thing is, that happened several more times. I eventually opted to just make him my warchief, killed the old warchief who was pretty much useless at this point, and that's just about my best memory from the game.
This puts me in mind of a NerdCubed video I saw. He'd been challenged to survive in Space Engineers with meteor strikes maxed out, meaning there was a huge barrage every few minutes. After trying to craft on the starting platform before it was destroyed by a barrage, he tried to escape only to realise one of the large starting ships had catapulted into space, and the other crippled by a strike. He moved the crippled ship behind a meteor to protect it, and it turned into a permadeath series of trying to repair the ship and find the other ship.
That's a whole sci-fi survival thriller plot, created by tweaking a value in a sandbox game. That's what games need to capitalise on as much as possible.
I'd love to see some kind of mashup between well designed, immersive sim gameplay combined with a truly dynamic narrative
i know its been 8 years but can you give a link to that episode?
Rimworld is the best example of emergent storytelling I've seen. Well, that and Dwarf Fortress, but Rimworld's basically a user-friendly Dwarf Fortress anyway.
Rimworld is considered by the devs a storytelling game iirc
DF for sure. I haven't played it for years but I still remember the stories. Like the story of one legged, one armed militia captain - a veteran of the Undead Crocodille War...
Yeah,I'm a bit disappointed he didn't mention Rimworld
@@storm7856 becasue rimworld wasn't out then. rimworld came out in 2017 and this video was made in 2015
Super surprised not to hear Dwarf Fortress mentioned as it's basically championing this
Noble Kale it is this*
I might suspect that Dwarf Fortress does not have a big audience and so does not bring much views... Why worry about it? CZcams remuneration is based on views and in time spent on the site by user.
I really enjoy that game and would suggest a video only about it. But is a niche audience.
My thoughts exactly, Dorf Fort is a game that generates stories from the most mundane things, for example. When I was starting out trying to learn the basics, I tried to set up an underground farm. My Farmer had lots of friends but he rapidly grew upset with the engraver because he kept clearing all the mud needed for setting up the farm. Eventually the Engraver stopped and the farmer succeeded in setting up his farm. Shortly there after, my fort comes under attack by some goblins. I quickly grab a useless character, the Engraver, and make him my Militia captain. Ecstatic with his promotion, he runs to visit his good friend, the Farmer, and breaks both his legs.
This was my introduction to the law and order system.
i feel that reason why DF isnt so popular is because how complex it is. i still have no clue what is going on, i was interested but sadly couldnt quite understand (even with tutorials it was quite confusing)
For me, the reason I never managed to stick with DF wasn't because it was *complex* but because it wasn't user friendly. Complex is fine, so long as it's presented in an understandable and accessible way. I get why DF uses ASCII graphics, but the interface leaves a great deal to be desired.
The Stanley Parable really made a cool choice selection process, which set you on completely different path.
The downside of this is that the "story" was really short and the game was designed to find what really was going on by playing multiple times.
Great game, non-the-less.
I reckon that was the point of the Stanley Parable. It was all about how the choices you make in video games are token and meaningless, motivated merely by a desire to finish all the endings rather than to affect an outcome, and that the only choice you have is whether to play the game or quit and do something else. That game made a lot of the points in this video pretty brilliantly
@@landlockedcroat1554 bruh could you really not bring yourself to write out the word "to"
@@chugiron4698 it would've taken "too" long 2 type "to"
This is why I find Tabletop RPGs so engaging and addictive. Having another human being act as the computer for your game, every possible action may be attempted to create some seriously unique stories.
I absolutely agree.
After starting with D&D I actually lost interest in tons of games that did the story choice stories because it just can't measure with D&D.
Doing it via an actual mechanical system though is very cool and might give something that has a lot of worth alongside linear narratives and D&D.
This is thread necromancy, but that was my thought while watching this video: the genre that does this even better than video games (today) is tabletops.
I think that tabletop anecdotes are usually more entertaining to the group that experienced them than outsiders. I believe the reason is that they remember how it felt natural and could have played out differently, but didn't. The stories themselves are rarely as nuanced as a book or even television - but the fact that they emerged unexpectedly in the narrative interactions between players and the world creates the interest and attachment to them. That's why we treasure our tabletop stories so much: to those who experienced them at the table, they're almost real life events.
agreed
So interesting, a whole new way to see narratives even beyond whether it's DnD (which I play) or video games
I think that Dwarf Fortress is probably the master of Civilization style dynamic stories.
I am gearing up to get into that, but it is kind of intimidating!
@@verlandes1 there's always Rimworld, which I believe is basically a prettier and less complex Dwarf Fortress (I never played DF so i can't really tell), also it has a ton of mods on the Steam workshop. Definitly worth checking out.
@@ezg420 thank's, will do!
@@verlandes1 definitely check out Rimworld. But be careful, I've played into the very very very wee hours... leaving myself 3 hours sleep to deal with real-life
I think you have to set apart the narrative of an aski(?) game, to a video game.. It would be like comparing the graphics. The complexity of the narrative, and adaptability, are literally incomparable because they don't use the same system.
If you are left to imagine what things look like, you'll have a much more personalised experience. Like when books are turned into films and the protagonist doesn't look anything like what I had in my head..
I'll answer the question at 6:00 with a quote from Extra Punctuation:
"Meanwhile, I have very strong memories of what I was getting up to outside of the story, when I was messing around with the rather lovely 'Orc hierarchy' feature that defines the game. At various points throughout the campaign the game simply instructs you to sort out the local Warchiefs and leaves you to do it however you wish, and I appreciated that opportunity very much. I'd make a point of taking out each Warchief's bodyguards with elaborate plans that exploited their randomly-assigned weaknesses, partly to make the final Warchief assault easier, partly to imagine them feeling the noose tightening around their big sweaty necks.
Later on, though, the game grants you the ability to brainwash Orcs, and they stay brainwashed even when you're not around, allowing you to insert agents into the Orc hierarchy that can be activated at any time in battle, Manchurian Candidate style. And I remember very clearly what I got up to with that: it allowed me to forge the legend of Khosh the Drunk. I had created him in a sense -- he had been Random Orc #57 during a difficult fight earlier on, and had landed a lucky killing blow on me, which granted him immediate ascension to the low rank of named captains.
For a while, he was something of a bugbear. I made a point of going after captains who had killed me, because _nemo me impune lacessit_ and all that jazz, but my first attempt failed thanks to his unexpectedly big entourage and he gained even more power. Things turned around on my second attempt, when I went to interfere with a duel he was having. I watched, unseen, to see which direction the duel would take, but Khosh realized he was in over his head quicker than I thought. His health reduced sharply, he became fearful and fled, losing the duel. While his opponent and the audience remained where they were to cheer and make like victorious football hooligans, Khosh ran blubbering into the wilderness, where I was able to catch up to him, grab him around the scruff of his neck and brainwash his fat arse.
Khosh became my man on the inside. His humiliating defeat in the duel had reduced his stature somewhat, so I helped him out with a couple of hunting missions to build his power back up, which I remember in my head as a sort of montage of me massacring zombies while Khosh bumbles about in the background, to the tune of Push It To The Limit from the Scarface soundtrack.
I successfully inserted Khosh into the entourage of the Warchief I was targeting, and through him, was able to kill or turn to my side all the other bodyguards. The time had finally come to strike this Warchief off the list. So I made my way to his stronghold and lured him out by killing and brainwashing my way through his low-level underlings.
But this is where the second act twist comes around. While the Warchief's official entourage was thoroughly Manchurianed, ready to be turned and start stabbing him up with a snap of my fingers in what would have been a rather marvelous "Trapped? Ha ha, you fool, 'tis I who has trapped you" moment. But what I didn't realize was that there were two powerful captains in the stronghold that I hadn't brainwashed, who weren't officially part of the entourage but were hanging around for, I dunno, a cribbage tournament.
What should have been a swift and painless stabdown turned into a messy prolonged melee battle, but in the end, the triumph was Team Yahtzee's. The Warchief died at my hands, and one of his brainwashed bodyguards took his place. Not Khosh, though. Khosh lay dead, killed by one of the rogue captains, although he'd been able to reduce the guy's health enough that avenging his death was little more than a trivial moment of cleanup in the battle's aftermath. But I was genuinely sad. Khosh was dead, having sacrificing himself to keep a difficult opponent occupied so that I could concentrate on the main target. Was this truly the same orc who'd fled blubbering from a duel, moments before I'd taken him under my wing? He'd had a true arc with a heroic end, leaving aside that whole 'forcibly rewriting his free will' business.
This was an incredibly strong bit of storytelling, and the fact that it was unscripted, and generated by random game mechanics, makes it all the more significant. It's the same trick Animal Crossing uses: get the player invested by giving them something utterly unique to them. Despite being a random assembly of traits, Khosh somehow ended up being a stronger character than the protagonist of the game's actual scripted narrative. Firstly because he had flaws that he'd had to overcome (note to game writers: 'being overly determined' and 'having no qualms about killing things en masse' do not count as flaws). And secondly because he was capable of dying; he wasn't lent indestructibility by the necessities of the plot.
Even at the very end of the story, Talion doesn't get much more than the usual "NOW WE CONTINUE THE FIGHT FOREVERMORE" weak-ass conclusion to send him off with. But I couldn't have given less of a shit, because there was a new star in the sky that night. A little sweaty green one that drank too much."
...I think that put it quite well.
Two excellent comments, thanks for sharing.
I have a small one. I'm a big fan of Rimworld. When you start you can pick from a pool of 'colonists' to begin the journey. I was fortunate enough to find three starting colonists all with good stats... and they were all related. It was a father (scientist, doctor, high social but non-violent), daughter (pretty balanced all round, but an excellent brawler), and step-mother (great builder, miner and shooter). Keep in mind I hadn't used mods for this, pure accident. Game on! I couldn't wait for the story to play out. I had the perfect start
The step-mother was their 'leader' and warrior due to her great shooting and building. Dad was her right-hand as the charismatic genius of the group, greeting visitors and trade caravans, researching in his spare time. Daughter just picked plants and shit. So as the months progressed and my group picked up more people, the family were still the head of the colony, improving their stats and getting stronger. What is also interesting is that out of all the colonists, Dad was the only male. I had this idea in my head of a tribe of female warriors, lead by the Matriarch and her husband. While dad was the spokesman of the group and highly skilled otherwise, he was surrounded by women and so his social standing in the group was only guaranteed due to the strength of his wife.
One day tragedy struck and step-mum succumbed to an infection after a raid. She died. I was pretty upset and nearly restarted because she was so good but decided to continue the story.
However, the family and the colony had fractured. Dad couldn't fight, and he was depressed so spent most of his time locked away researching. Daughter was young and her skills were average, also depressed plus the relationship between her and dad was amicable at best. The death of step-mum had left a vacuum, and the family lost their position at the top.
Enter Lana, the newest colonist, excellent fighter, and well rounded everywhere else. Who best to lead this colony off this wasteland of a planet and into the stars? The problem? She was a misandrist and hated men (an actual trait in the game). Shunned by the new Queen, mourning the death of his wife, dad suffered mental break after mental break. Despite the thriving success of the colony - built on the back of his inventions - his attempts to flirt with other colonists always resulted in failure and I honestly really started to feel for him, I had a whole bunch of colonists here with imagined stories and traits, an overarching legend was being built before my eyes using the power of my mind.
I'm going to leave the story there because I typed way more than I intended, but you'll be happy to know after about five years, Lana and dad had become firm friends, and every colonist managed to escape the planet. My very first colony to manage it. The end.
I have two issues with the video (which I found really insightful).
Firstly, a distinction should be made between the stories you tell and stories you experience. XCOM and CIV have stories you tell, either to yourself or to others as you recount your experiences. On the other hand games like Senua's Sacrifice (which I'll reference again later) make you experience a story. And I feel that those two cannot be compared because they are different at many levels.
Secondly, I feel that games don't have to rely on interactivity to set themselves apart from film or literature. With a game like Senua's Sacrifice you experience a masterfully done story and atmosphere in a way completely different from film and literature because you feel the story, you are in the story, you are the story.
In short, games already give you a wholly new way to experience a story, but the problem is the stories, more often than not, are not that good.
P.S.
Great content, keep it up. :D
Even if the game makes you experience a story, if it gives you choices, it is nice when those choices have consequences.
Like Until Dawn, that can go from everyone dieing to everyone living.
I agree, especially with the last paragraph.
Sorry for the delay to those who like/need the closed captions. They're now available!
+Mark Brown Have you ever tried "King of Dragon Pass"? It mixes elements from many different types of "emergent storytelling". It has chose your own adventure style dialogue sequences where you get to pick one out of several options, but the outcome of these options depends not only on what you picked, but also on your village. You can take direct actions (like say attack another village) or a random event can happen which will improve or deteriorate your relationship with them. It mixes strategy game elements like those found in Civ and Crusader Kings (including a simpler version of the interpersonal relationships between characters) with adventure elements close to those found in Telltale games, and adds in a small dash of Dwarf Fortress. It was originally released back in 1999, but recently got an update for modern smartphones and the updated version just got a steam release.
+Noble “Dedicated Dark” Alfred Same here, dude. What is your skill emphasis right now? Coding, design, 2D Art, 3D Art, etc?
Mark Brown you basically just described emergent narrative.
So would you say you could name these stories:
- Background Story (Lore)
- Narrative Story (The written dialogues and events like cutscenes)
- Player Story (What the player actually experiences)
And everything overlaps and is intertwined, but ultimately only the player story matters, as the narrative becomes only a part of it.
You should try Istrolid, it's an RTS, where you build your own content out of parts.
Mount and Blade: Warband is a game where you make your own story. It's buggy and feels like a 1st gen xbox360 title, but I found it difficult to quit, despite it's flaws and learning curve. Much like Civ, there's no real story to speak of, but you form relationships with nobles and kings, you can find a maiden to marry and either form your own kingdom and conquer the land or serve as a king's vassal or just make a good living as a manhunter. You have the option to help villagers or loot and raise their villages. There are a few options for your origin story, and what you choose affects your starting stats and how other nobles feel about you.
Aside from crushing waves of bandits and peasants with my hammer, I loved how it felt like you were really trying to make your way in this kingdom to eventually conquer it.
Love these videos, keep 'em coming!
Bill Malcolm I normally end up as a rich trader, the spice trade is surprisingly profitable.
Mount and Blade is an incredible game
I would love to see the Nemesis system in a GTA/Godfather type of game. Merging it with turf wars and takeovers in the style of Vice City Stories and The Godfather could allow you to create epic personal stories of mob wars, vendettas and the rise to the top of the criminal food chain. It would be the perfect gangster game.
I still remember Dwarf Fortress's adventure mode. I once took on a quest to locate and kill a vampire in a town. The vampire was next to the town hall when I called her out, and while I was nearly killed when she lashed out at me, the townsfolk were able to literally tear her limb from limb.
I always found that the games I really felt connected with are the ones I can create my own story in them but the ones I love are the ones that react to me as well. It makes the game feel more immersive to me and thats what i love about games. small things like HUDs that make sense for the narrative or character reactions that match what you expect.
This is so true. Every artform needs to realise it's own strength. Theatre is live and in the hands of the actors and can therefor never replace or be replaced by movies, which can jump in space and time and tell their story in the exact same way every time and are the hands of the director and can therefor never be replaced by or replace games, which are interactive and in the hands of the player.
You just made my day with this comment. Thank you.
its like those legendary dwarf fortress stories you keep hearing over the net or how this other player beat this bloodborne boss because someone rated his message
another player's experience with the game can be a worthwhile story
Feel like I lost my innocence with that Walking Dead reveal. The illusion completely worked on me, but I refused to play again because thatd journey was mine.
Styx master of shadows is the best example for this. For the whole game you can make clones and don't know why or why you are doing anything, until a massive plot twist in the middle of the game that is based on all of your abilities
I think its a little bit of a false binary but I dig where you are coming from. Like I understand how systematized games can create a personalized set up but when you say on 6:45 or so how they can create something more than "any writer can dream up" I feel that's where the false binary comes up. You are still going to need writers for these kinds of systems. Writers to make all the lines of dialogues all the character quirks that would make these systems work. It makes a lot of sense when you think about for example, how No Man's Sky is using artists, to generate "pallets" which are then randomly generated and discovered by the player. It's not a debate between writers/artists and game developers and more an understanding that writing for video games might look like something very different compared to other media. Which is also kind of your point. So cheers!
One of my favorite channels on youtube :)
I also find it interesting when videogames offer the player a linear story but tell it through mediums unavailable in film. Sort of how Limbo manages to subtly offer clues as to what is going on without so much as a word of dialogue or any cutscenes (save for one at the end which lasts about 10 seconds).
This is by far the best series on CZcams.
That FC4 clip was incredible. I wonder if it was pure coincidence, or whether the game recognizes the possibility for a crash and steers the truck to the left. Probably pure coincidence.
This is an absolutely incredible series. Very well thought out and informative, keep it up!
I really enjoy this channel. Keep up the great work!
Great stuff, as per usual. Looking forward to the next part! :)
I can see a franchise like The Elder Scrolls releasing a new game using the Nemesis system (or something like it) working independently of the narrative(s). I just can't wait to see what it looks like as it's refined!
Sorry for the disappointment you must feel waiting for the next game
So good
Why doesnt this channel have more subscribers
Love it.
Dwarf fortress is definitely the pinnacle of emergent storytelling. All you have to do is read Boatmurdered to realise that.
I like hollow knight because you almost never get the same "story" as your friend, it's not really a story but it's like the order you do the stuff in. It's really cool
You are an International treasure my friend @Game Maker's Toolkit! Genuinely, thank you so much for your insight and contribution to the next generation of artistic expression. The level of depth you reach in your videos and your exploration of systems, mechanics, and other pertinent aspects of game design are so well thought out I find myself almost compelled to take notes as I watch your videos. There just are not enough individuals approaching modern gaming and its artistic concepts as media that should be treated as educational. Your voice will undoubtedly have an impact on the betterment of this entertainment medium. We need more content creators who are competent enough to explore gaming the way you do. So again, Thank you.
I really want to know your opinion on Nier:Automata on it's linear storytelling. Because N:A story is something that CANNOT work in other media. Like in Uncharted, turning it from action to pure CG movie will still tell the story perfectly. Or in Fallout, where changing it from RPG into Telltale style game will retain almost 99% of the story and audience ability to understand it. But in N:A, switching out any game mechanic will crumble the whole story into something not understandable.
In a sense, it's like The Witcher 3 hunting quest where you understand the target's habit, story, etc from 'tracking/seeking' them, but crank up to 11.
Dynamic stories are one of the biggest features of survival games. Some of the most personal and interesting stories I've experienced come from playing DayZ.
FTL always gave me great moments, desperation and sadness
The Way of the Samurai series does this amazingly!
XCOM, three campaigns and three separate stories.
In Enemy Unknown my first sniper was Xiao Chen Ma, she had something around 90+% hit rate with her rifle. Several messy situations were solved by her taking out enemy after enemy whilst the rest of the operatives took cover or retreated. Later on when I got a psionics lab it turned out that she was also the first soldier with the gift that we could find. Suddenly her impressive record made sense, she had jedi reflexes. I only found about two other gifted soldiers so when it got close to the end she was the one that stepped up and led the counteroffensive and she was the woman who saved the earth.
When I played Enemy Within I had several options activated to make the game more difficult. And I kept losing my best operatives again and again. I had barely managed to get things under control when I visited the fishing village. Brrr. One of the primary problems was the lack of competent medics. So to my surprise the assault soldier Jana Fischer became the first proper field medic. And the best pistol shot in the organization. And unlike all before her, she didn't die. Ever. She took on 70% of the missions for wiping out EXALT and impressed me time and time again with general badassery.
So then we have the complex and intimidating prospect of XCOM 2: War of the Chosen. After the first lost mission I got two soldiers with a strong bond, Jana Kelly and Julia Muños. The former is my first ranger and she is an excellent infiltrator and assassin, in fact. She has killed the chosen Assassin twice with her sword, earning her the title Kingslayer. Muños however, is my most competent sharpshooter. And she never lets me down, with Kelly's spotting she can take out entire patrols before they spot me. And she tends to hit basically ever shot with her handgun. This duo is what I bring for every serious mission, they have never let me down.
I've always been disappointed that the Nemesis System never really caught on. It was a brilliant, well-executed idea that, if expanded upon, could have made for some amazing games.
it's because they made a patent and so now nobody can use it
haha when max was playing the guitar at the beginning I was singing the song in my head before the video started and it matched up perfectly
Great Video man
Keep up the good work
Great video. I've always been interesting in games being used to tell stories in more creative ways, so experimenting with non-linear narratives is always something that gets me interested, even if some of my favourite game stories are linear affairs (stuff like Ghost Trick in particular).
Lots of people's fond experiences with games, especially stuff such as sandbox games, comes from stumbling across or doing something that they think no or few other players have also done, so making story a part of that sensation seems like a good idea, as long as it isn't too costly.
I really love the storytelling in The Forest; almost all of it is evoked/emergent. You figure out what's going on by paying attention to what you see in the environment and players are enabled to come up with their own theories and ideas about what things mean and how they're connected.
I'd say Mount and Blade is a good example of telling a story through systems. It basically just puts you in the shoes of one character in an automated 4X game.
This was a really good video, and reminded me of a lot of my favorite games, especially Far Cry 3. Subscribed :)
I'm surprised you didn't mention Dwarf Fortress at all, I'd say it's one of the most significant games in this department.
A game I love called sunless sea does that sort of thing really well, it’s a bit of a rogue like with procedural generation and perma death, but every time a character dies you’re given a new goal, a new history, and new equipment including crew members, most of the games stories come from the islands you come across but depending on what happens you can interact with different areas in different way and I have several stories about narrowly escaping a terrible sea creature to find a safe haven, angering the wrong person or getting desperate enough to eat my crew, every time you die a new story begins and even if you go to the same places it’s still a different story depending on your supplies, what you run into and how you do things
I'm late to this, but once Crosses starts playing, I'm so hooked!
I like how stories emerge from the mechanics of Rimworld
This is so true. I absolutely love these videos.
One I found interesting was Left 4 Dead (and L4D2.) While basically linear, the enemies and items spawned differently each game, so each game played was a little different, especially so when playing coop. Each game creates its own sub-story due to the randomness of the enemies and players.
Dwarf Fortress is the godking of this type of thing. Anybody who's interested in the subject and hasn't tried it should really give it a whirl.
CardboardBlueMage yeah, this discussion is really incomplete without dwarf fortress
Is Dwarf Fortress even a game you can "give a whirl?" Because I'm interested in the subject, and I have tried to give Dwarf Fortress "a whirl," only to find that merely comprehending it in a basic sense takes literal research.
i love your videos, man.
The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series is really one of the best examples of emergent and systemic gameplay. Especially the fan mod, Call of Chernobyl. With a few mods with your base CoC game you'll be earning your first "Stalker Story" in a matter of minutes.
To me, the exciting procedurally generated stories that everyone remembers in games like Skyrim and Civilization happen too rarely and the vast majority of the time in those games is spent in situations that make for pretty boring stories. Just like how procedurally generated levels can't compare to a hand crafted one created by a talented level designer, I feel that a "systems based" story just won't be as good as one told by a good writer. Don't get me wrong, I too have fond memories of exciting situations in games like Xcom and Crusader Kings 2 but I just don't see systems based stories ever becoming the dominant mode of storytelling in games - at least not without some major technological advances.
The finale of Telltale's Walking Dead season 1 had me fighting back tears. I'm just kinda doubtful a systems based story will ever have that kind of effect on me.
Depends on how you define the term "story". Of course a linear narrative can be a lot more refined, but at the same time it blends much less with the game mechanics, which especially in the case ot TWD are just obstacles between getting another chunk of the story. In Civ on the other hand the gameplay *is* the story. To make it more intense the game would have to find what is the story about it and refine how the game is telling it without changing the mechanics. This already happens to a degree by the characterization of the fractions and the dialogue options in the diplomatic screen, but of course one could take it further, have bards sing the stories of successful battles and describing the opposite leaders reaction. He could swear eternal revenge, while the game does not has to change a bit, because there is already a parameter which calculates the dustrust. All in all I guess that way is probably more interesting in the future than trying to make a linear story branch, because a branching story hides content which has still to be created, while the interactive solution really just sits on top of the standard reactions of the game.
Civilization still feels incredibly "systemic". I sort of wonder what the impact would be there if you simply made it a bit more ambiguous how other leaders would feel about you instead of basically showing an appreciation level.
Problem with something like Skyrim is that you _can_ deviate from the path but the game clearly isn't designed for it and often just breaks.
I understand what you're saying. But I wholly disagree. Random generation in combination with authored content can create some extremely interesting results. Spelunly's lvl design has straight up bodied alot of other hand crafted games, while also making extremely varied content. System story telling has so much potential because of how much weight it can put on the player's choices. TWD created this disconnect for me where none of the choices felt like my own. So it was hard for me to become invested the way the game wanted me to be. I would've actually perfered the game was just a movie or a spin off comic. Considering how little agency the player is given in the game anyways
The right mix of pre-determined and player-caused story produces the best games. The original Halo trilogy has this mix (especially 2 and 3): there are many levels that you can play through 100 times and it still won't be boring. There's a lot of variables that can have a huge effect on your experience: what weapons you chose to pick up (having a sniper or a shotgun will be a completely different experience), at what point enemies detected you, the formations they took up, whether or not they decided to flank you and where from, the order in which you happened to kill certain enemies (e.g. grunts will run away when you kill elites), what vehicles happened to be destroyed and which ones stayed intact (and can then be used by you and your fellow marines). A bunch of really simple rules can produce a ton of potential outcomes
well, with XCOM and CK2 is that, given the option, a player will optimize the fun out of a game, which also optimizes the story out, instead of one soldier being lucky to have gotten out, instead, every battle is a curb-stomp, because the player took every advantage they could get,
Minecraft is Systems-based, but when you're building your tower and one well-placed shot from a skeleton knocks you to your doom, it certainly gets the adrenaline rushing and makes you want to get revenge, doesnt it?
Thank you for this video; that's very interesting.
I think a good example of what you're talking about is Space Station 13, as personal freedom to decide how the round plays out is one of the big draws of it.
Great video, as always. I'm actually making a video game and your videos give me good ideas to improve my work. "Invisible tutorial" was better than most of the books/articles/tutorials I read about this subject. Thank you, keep going !
Your videos are awesome man ..
I think its worth mentioning that designing a good narratively driven game presents its own set of challenges apart from making one who's mechanics DRIVE the narrative. Both are good, definitely, they just require a separate set of skills to implement well.
I still remember that time in skyrim when I got a giant and a mammoth to fight a dragon. Granted, that is some 'emergent' gameplay that most players have probably seen but it felt so cool at the time because even if it is common, it is still unique in how and when a player might experience it. It's just there are lots of giants and mammoths in the plains, and dragons will attack anything. Two mechanics that allow for an exciting random event at any proper time. I think there were some sabretooths involved too.
Love your content
The total war series give me a shit load of memories of grand campaigns and legendary battles. I will never forget my most impressive battle in Rome Total War. The Roman civil war kicked off and the Brutii were flanking from the north through Iuvavum, I had a very small detachment up there that was waiting for reinforcements from Pavatium. The Brutii got there before my reinforcements could, I figured I’d pull back the reinforcements and fortify Pavatium and prepare for their main attacks and just use my small detachment to just deal as much damage as I could and weaken their army as best I can to have a better chance when they moved into Italy. I was outnumbered and outclassed, I was using premarian reform units while they had early legionary cohorts. I had one full unit of Barbarian mercenaries and a mostly full unit of hoplite mercenaries, one unit of old style Roman archers, one mercenary slinger unit, two generals, three partially full units of hastati, and one ballista. I placed my ballista close to the gate but far enough to shoot over it, a bit behind them I had my slingers and behind them I had my hoplites in phalanx formation wall to wall in the Main Street of the city, the archers behind them and the rest of my main foot infantry where the street came to the main square in a concave formation. I had my two general units on the left on a smaller street so I could easily withdraw them in hopes of having them flee the battle once the enemy was engaged and preoccupied.
The Brutii busted though my walls and front gate very easily and only lost a few men to my ballista, I had the men of my ballista unit hold their ground to slow the advancing army. This next part may sound evil but whatever it’s a video game. I allowed my slingers and archers to open fire upon the enemy even though some of my ballista could be hit. My ballista soldiers held their ground pretty well surprisingly for a long time and I managed to kill a good number of Brutii with my missile units. Once my ballista routed back to the main square I had my slingers fall back with them as they were almost out of ammo. My hoplites did a fantastic job, but what do you expect with a literal spear wall in a narrow street. They killed a handful Brutii but what they mainly did was practically hold them in place while I had my archers rain fire arrows down upon the units further back to avoid hitting my own men but still demoralizing all of the enemy units.
My hoplites finally broke and fell back to the main square and I had them form up with the rest of my entire army, standard infantry and missile troops were all ready to brace the enemy attack. I had everyone working as melee units at this point. The partially encircled Brutii units at the front were actually wavering and on the verge of breaking, but the rest of the enemy army was now entirely within the city in the Main Street as a massive horde ready to just steam roll me.
At the same time I was getting ready to have my generals flee but the enemy general and two light cavalry units were attempting to flank my forces through a street close to the one I was going to flee from, I had one of my generals meet them head on while my other take another street to hit them in their flank. The general that met them head on died but his bodyguards continued to fight and the flanking attack of my other general broke the moral of all three enemy units and proceed to cut them down as they tried to run also killing the enemy general. This hurt the moral of the entire enemy army.
While this was happening my semi circle was pushed back to allow an opening on the side of the street where some Brutii were attempting to break through, but as soon as that happened my general and the dead generals cavalry came busting into the hole in my formation right into the advancing Brutii. This broke the entire frontline force of the Brutii and about 4 units began to rout. Only problem was they were being blocked by their allies in the street behind them. My cavalry slaughtered them, and the Brutii behind them saw the slaughter and routed out of fear. I kept this up all the way along the street. I had my small force just push forward and keep the momentum killing everything in their path. To the enemy, all they saw were Julii soldiers just slaughtering their men without knowing they still had the numerical advantage.
I won the battle losing about 3/4 of my men but I beat an enemy army almost 6 times as large. I stumped the main advancing army of the Brutii with a small outdated army. I felt like such a badass. Not only had I pulled off an impressive battle but I also crippled the enemy’s military forces tipping the favor of the war into my favor
Amazing song choice at the beginning 👌🏻
How could you not mention Dwarf Fortress?
Dick Butt Wanted to keep the video concise I reckon.
Dick Butt Or at least RimWorld?
Dick Butt Because the mechanics are some obtuse and unintuitive that it's depth might as well not exist for most people.
Dick Butt I assume he only mentioned games that he played himself.
Disthron stupid people maybe
These videos are enjoyable to see
the problem with Shadow of Mordor's nemesis system is I never really experienced it. I made an effort to kill any captain I encountered, so if one of them survived their "death" and came back scarred, I'd just be like "OK? Which one are you? I've put like 200 of you guys on spikes."
I absolutely agree. For the longest time my favorite games have been things like Elder Scrolls -- games that give me a sort of general skeleton of a universe and then just let me do whatever I want within them. I think that sense of ownership and personal attachment, and the ability to fill in a narrative in your head, ends up more than making up for how the actual content of the game can be a bit wonky or lacking.
I remember that one seemingly undefeatable uruk in shadow of Mordor. He was basically resistant to everything. It was sooo satisfying finally claiming him as my own.
I was honestly expecing some mention of Roguelikes, with their interesting stories of narrow escapes and successions due to random level layout and permadeath, or evem Fire Emblem, where permadeath means every player needs to come up with new strategies to overcome obstacles designed for a now dead character. I think you have enough extra games that you could actually make a GMTK Extra listing off more things based on this concept!
Love the storytelling in the Zero Escape games. There isn't much choice that really impacts the story overall, but the way you get there is very personal in the way it builds upon storypaths that branch out with choice. This wouldn't be possible without the interactive nature of videogames. Well, it's a visual novel thing, but Zero Escape games do it exceptionally well.
fantastic editiing
I can't wait to see the Nemesis system used in other games. Can you imagine a crime solving game based on randomly generated homicide?
Honestly, it's the most exciting system I've seen in a long while.
bad news, the bastards patented it and will sue anyone who tries to make it into hell
First thing this brings to mind are the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games, tons of personal stories from those games
Why do I like every video I see of yours? You express what so few see on the surface but many instinctively know. I especially agree with the fact that games need to embrace what sets them apart from every other medium, and that includes its stories. Preset narratives are best handled via books and film. Any narrative a game maker attempts to pull together must take into account systems that allow for true and interesting player choices. Emergent gameplay is key to the future of game stories.
ould you say becoming attached to characters and wanting them to stay alive in games such as Cannon Fodder bare a similar relevance?
Albeit not so much with the story part.
***** Have you played XCOM? I have to stop myself from loading saves when I fuck up and lose my favorite sniper, and I feel crazy guilty when I do. I've gotten attached to characters from the very first missions and gotten a sinking feeling when I have to end a turn knowing there's no way to save them. And the little details they put on each character, their medals, their national flags on their backs, their unique skillset, makes every character feel like a hard loss when you forget to cover an angle and they get fucked.
And then suddenly using a grenade to kill a sectoid doesn't feel so bad.
@@doginhoodie5519 which xcom is this? i wanna play
@@TheRandomBlackHole it's just XCOM in general. XCOM Enemy Unknown, Enemy Within, or XCOM 2. Possibly even the older games, but I wouldn't know. Those were before I found XCOM. Chimera Squad isn't exactly like the usual XCOM games since it has set characters with their own backgrounds and personalities, but you can still get attached to them.
I'd say many survival multiplayer games (and mmorpgs) already do this a lot. Been playing some Rust (yeah yeah I know) and I've gotten some really unique "stories" where me and my friend sneaked out in the night, found some guys in the process of burning down a house, killed them, got their stuff, got chased by others, and during all this a bear rabdonly stumbles out of the forrest and starts chasing us, we have to build a small makeshift shelter from the bear, still pitch black so we can't see the bear clearly but we can't turn on a light since the people chasing us would see us, we manage to kill the bear without making much sound and keep running. The next day those guys we killed finds us at our house and they demand their stuff back or else!! It's no longer a story, it's an experience. I wish there was more games where this was the gameplay (Rust has a lot of mundane farming and such so it's not all 'worthy experiences'). Another thing is the "story" being told of human nature. Of how humans interact when there's no rule of law, no consequences unless someone enforces those consequences. How much or little people trust each other, and how the "battle hardened vets" who has played the game a lot act compared to a new player. Not just that they know the mechanics of the game better, they treat people differently, a naive new player is either used to hitting everything in the game or used to other people helping them in the game, not this spectrum of "true human morality". No system, no extras, just humans interacting in a digital world, no large quests, no boss battles, just pure human interactions. Is it frustrating? Yes, like hell, but it's one of the most rewarding games I've ever played when things go my way.
Great account of the importance of systemic gameplay. You address the shortcomings of fake choices with clear examples I could have never tested myself (as I won't be playing Walking Dead twice to see if things change :)
What you describe as 5 sec narratives in Far Cry could resonate with a community by engaging in forums and chat rooms - also with persistent world where you are accountable for both your interactions with others AND with the environment.
I've just finished 4 years at University on a Bsc Hons in Games Technology. Not a single lesson or assignment covered the topics you have and I think thats a huge shame. You've taught me more on game design than my whole course and I'm really thankful for that.
You talk about shadow of Mordor so much that I am starting to think about getting it.
One example of a narrative told in a form unique to video games is From Software's Souls/Bloodborne series. The most interesting aspects of their story is in the Lore, which is primarily learned through item descriptions. Often, an important story element is linked to a particular item that can only be found in an optional or secret area. This utilizes game's unique use of interactive space, as well as text in item descriptions. The player becomes a sort of excavator of ruins, piecing together the lore bit by bit. What's even more brilliant is that at its best, these games interweave this process within the player-character's own narrative. As the character learns of the kingdom's past, they eventually begin to realize that they're sort of accidentally making the same mistakes that the past leaders have made. I feel that this way of conveying information to construct a story is completely rooted in game's unique ability to create interactive spaces.
A deep systemic sandbox world like GTA could be a great candidate to building a systemic and procedural narrative. If the only requirement of your branching narrative is new voice and performance capture (things that are becoming more automated and cheap), and not new regions and gameplay systems to realize the new path, I could see the economics of it all working.
You open with Jose Gonzalez? Instant thumbs up. Love the analysis still
Your videos are amazing and mindblowing for people like me who's into game design. Thank you for making them.
I think Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons is one of the best examples of telling stories with systems. It does it in a way I haven't seen in any other game (though I'm not sure if it would be as impactful the second time, if another game did the same thing for example). Every player gets the same story, sure, but the way it is conveyed is pretty genius.
I'd love to see a game that has these systemic story building mechanics, but in a world where the lore is as hidden, obtuse, and vast as the Dark Souls games. You'd get to build and experience your own story as the player while uncovering and piecing together your own perspective on the world you are in. I always found it very interesting how multiple people can play a Souls game, which have a static plot, but have very different interpretations as to what is going on in the world before and after, and even during your quest. You know exactly what is going on with your character, but the rest of the world is such a puzzle.
In my head when I played XCOM I gave every single one of my soldiers a background and defined their relationship with each other and also the commander. It was ungodly satisfying (Lots of typing) And on their epitaph when they died I had people say stuff about them (Commander, soldiers, scientists, etc.) it added alot of story that was well in my head. So I get what your saying in this.
This gives me a lot to think about, figuring out what systems could theoretically make emergent gameplay and stories, without sacrificing a linear or semi-branching narrative. If the two could be married (the Nemesis system being more of a set of side-stories), then I think there could be a LOT of fun to be had.
Best Channel Ever!
Please more videos! :D
Thanks! Got a good one coming soon, I think :D
Awesome! Looking Forward to this!
I think Detroit Become Human was one excellent example of a truly interactive written story, and I couldn't help but think about that game throughout the first half of the video 😂 wish it had come out before this video was made. it would be cool to see a video about what made that game so good... Cheers!
I love your videos!! =D
The ultimate manifestation of this idea is essentially Sburb, the game that Homestuck is about. Shame that the in-universe game itself didn't get a lot of focus after the first few acts.
hope i'll get someday to make that procedural take on this kind of game design sometime soon-ish myself ( still at prototyping :p )..just watched a talk with darkest dungeon team.. good stuff ! need to give that westerado a run too, laughed hard at uncle/quest providing sheriff shootings bit :)
Liked the video because of that beautiful Gonzales song you played from Life is Strange. Good choice.
Westerado looks amazing.
With the Walking Dead I think it was great the way they did it because it made me feel helpless. A zombie apocalypse would do just that to just about anyone, so having some things spiral out of control was great, because I felt I had just enough control over the things that mattered that I should be in charge of and that I needed to accept that sometimes, bad things happen to good people.
Well, except the ending of chapter 4. Screw that zombie hiding behind the garbage that was way too obvious and no way in hell would I fall for that trap. God damn it, Telltale
Alrighty, don’t start with Jose Gonzalez’ “Crosses” unless you want me to cry and get Nostalgic about LiS 😂
Couldn't agree more, i love all types of game stories but i think there should be more truly interactive, emerging stories in games. Ken Levine's storytelling legos sounds amazing, i hope they can pull it off.
Jesper Juul wrote a good thing about games and narrative (It's on Jesper's blog, titled: A clash between Game and Narrative). My summary can't do it justice, but the point he put forward was a game can't effectively tell a narrative because a narrative is fixed in the past and a game is interactive. In order for the game to tell the narrative we have to ignore pieces of interactivity and doing saves / loads to effectively play out the Correct story beats in order for the game to progress.
However, a single play through of a game is fixed and so you can create a narrative from that series of events after the play through. I've always reconciled this as thinking that games aren't so good at telling stories, but they can be used to create stories.
I was excited when you started mentioning these games, but in the end I knew them all! Do you have any more examples or recommendations of this "genre"?
I was quite interested in sunless sea but I don't think it will be as interesting as I expected.
Brian Walker has a great GDC-talk about his game Brogue where he discusses the narrative possibilites of system based games.
I love Magic Duels because the effects fit the 'role-play'. I can put wings on my leopard to let him fly and give my shaman a horse to make him stronger and faster. Also I can picture things: there can be a whole army heading for my planeswalker, but being wiped out by my own army.
Very interesting video, thanks Mark!
I've been playing games since the 90s and with the very limited technical resources, learned to augment games stories with my own imagination. Because of that, I sometimes feel that very strong stories in games are getting in the way. I can play games with basically zero story (like sports games like NHL and FIFA or games with very little story like Rogue Legacy and Guild of Dungeoneering or even non-story driven board games) and craft an imaginary story of my own while enjoying the basic gameplay - usually around the characters or events.
Similarly, I've seen many people tell amazing stories from games like Dwarf Fortress which is 90% created in the imagination of the player rather than by the game generated content. Expecting a system game to create the story will most often just lead to disappointment, especially until we can build AIs that can generate vast amounts of smart and engaging storylines for us.
On the other hand, I absolutely love some very linear interactive story games like Firewatch or Lifelink because they succeed in creating an immersive world and character that I feel like I'm playing me even if I can't make any real choices.