Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical? Where did they come from? (Part One) | Theocast
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- Are spiritual disciplines biblical? Which disciplines are the most important? Where do we find in the bible the most common spiritual disciplines? Who are the significant writers on this subject? In part one of this series, Jon Moffitt will help you with a simple overview of what spiritual disciplines are, where they came from, and the historic reformed faith. We will examine the writings of Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, and Don Whitney.
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So good! Thanks, Jon. It is extremely revealing of the depth of our depravity when you see a new believer, zealous to live and serve within the rest they have received in Christ, being drawn away from resting in Christ’s finished work (by Christians!) and loaded with a new set of laws not prescribed by the Scriptures. Sinful man, yea even the redeemed sinner, wants the glory any way he can try to obtain it. And Christian leaders seem to prey on the excitement of baby believers…
As a pastor, what would you tell a new believer who zealously asks, “Now that I’m saved, what can I do next?”
Great question! Ephesians 4. Stay committed to church, learn to love your brothers and sisters, and focus on resting in Christ while you help others find this rest.
BROOOO THANK YOU FOR ASKING THIS QUESTION ❤❤❤
Thank you for the review. It was very helpful, especially for someone who did not have these "disciplines" as part of their tradition or spiritual development. In fundamentalism I think it was suggested that things like Bible reading and prayer would almost guarantee spiritual growth and sanctification (nouthetic counseling does this), but these things were not labeled "disciplines" per se. Even those things, while good, are not the ordinary means of grace when we do them in isolation. We've lost the corporate nature of growth in Word and Sacrament. Grateful for this episode and looking forward to the next.
Excellent subject! I am looking forward towards the next couple of weeks on this topic.
Thanks!!!
This is somewhat confusing. There are many scripture that exhort effort, (such as "make every effort to be Holy" Heb 12:14). One can barely turn a page in the NT without reading a few exhortations to DO things. The impression I walk away with is how much I still need to do etc which certainly doesn't inspire rest to be honest. However my conclusion is that its an issue of training and sanctification, not salvation. My understanding is salvation itself is a standalone 'transaction' that's quite apart from the next step which is a life long process of sanctification and discipline. I think the issue is when these things become confused and entangled. And that easily happens if I read the scriptures because at face value I often read "works requirements" followed by warnings etc
My understanding of the disciplines that are promoted are things one can do to promote spiritual growth as opposed to not doing anything and being idle in a sense. I read Heb 11:6 ".... He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" and James 4:8 "draw near to God and He'll draw near to you" as encouragements toward discipline?
We will be covering this question in our last video, Reformed view of Sanctification compared to Spiritual Disciplines
I think you're right on that the spiritual disciplines don't provide salvation, but don't reformed churches also have pastors and sermons and worship, prayer and other consistent practices? There's a natural gravitation inside of man toward discipline and routine on some level.
I would argue that the Holy Spirit is spontaneous and can and does move whenever it wants, both inside and outside of practices, but some practices tend toward certain results. Grateful prayer tends to focus the mind on the positive and faith. Prayer for others focuses the mind on being other-centered. Reading the Bible tends to produce insight.
But because of this gravitation toward discipline and routine, when Christians gather on a social or organized level, sometimes those collective practices lead to great things, and other times, they exploit.
I guess my main concern with the spiritual disciplines is that we shouldn't beat others over the head with them in regards to our private lives, but also that, when we gather, whatever we practice should be done with more democracy and/or unanimity as well as more spontaneity when appropriate, both to avoid abuse and to increase investment by all involved.
Very interesting. Love this topic
Thanks!
Just to understand. So you're against spiritual discipline but agree with means of grace e.g. Prayer, Bible reading and studying, fellowship and evangelism?
1 Timothy 4:7
Luke 13:24
Luke 9:23
Philippians 2:12
1 Corinthians 9:27
Matthew 5:29
Romans 15:30
I wonder what these verses are about, I only recognize the Philippians one.
Also, idk if you're protestant or Catholic (as if that's the only way to categorize, but if for this conversation, it should suffice), but I wonder if you're also wondering why the division between Catholics and protestant for what happened in error in the past. Not to dismiss, but there were plenty of disagreement in church history both biblical and extra scriptural that didn't resolve in remaining separated... What do you think how long will this tribalism go on? Do you sense that this disagreement is out of tribalism as well?
It would be interesting to hear more about the Lollards and other groups pre-reformation as well.
Frankly, the idea of "spiritual disciplines," as commonly taught in churches, sounds more like Gnosticism than Christianity.
What work did you quote of D.A. Carson?
Found it! D.A. Carson, Spiritual Disciplines, Editorial. Themelios Volume 36, No. 3, November 2011.
If you read the confession on 16:2 it speaks on following God’s commands. I don’t think this is right.
Chapter 15:3 it says perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life…obedience…
I don’t understand why you can’t argue that list from Scripture.
Didn’t Jesus practice solitude?
Didn’t Jesus fast?
Didn’t he live simply?
The irony friend is some of those monastic ideals is what became widespread in protestantism, such as simplistic decor in the churches, no art... That was left behind in Catholicism in the name of not breaking the second commandment, "iconoclasm" in a word.
Both sides have reparations to make for sure, and neither are completely correct in history. Let God be true and every man a liar.
I'm with you by the way, spiritual disciplines are a must in our part of sanctification, none of it being fruitful without the holy Spirit ofc!
Agreed @jonathancollins1099
It's possible to undertake these disciplines and rest in Christ (and not see them as means of salvation lol).
How would you respond if you've been attending a Reformed Baptist church for four years, but now you are starting to see that spiritutal formation is endorsed and practiced by your pastor?
Our ladies group at church is reading "The Spiritual Disciplines Handbook" by Adele Calhoun, and something did not sit right. Coming from a charismatic background it just made me wanna puke! So I started looking into it and was introduced to the spiritual formation movement. My husband and I thought, "This must be some kind of mistake!"
He had a meeting with our pastor only to find he completely endorses this, carries Foster books in our church bookstore, and even has the leadership team practice lectio divina in meetings! He completely dismissed our concerns and said we just need to trust him more, basically. My husband said we will have no part in this whatsoever.
We love our church family and this is something we never would have suspected was creeping around and endorsed!
How would you go about leading your family in this conundrum?
Listen, I’ve watched your podcasts for months now. I love you guys. I think you guys are truly Christian you guys are really helping a lot of Christians out with their legalism and pietism. But as a Luthern , I have to disagree with this teaching on this podcast. That is not the Luthern teaching on discipline. As Luthern , we believe that sanctification is completely cooperative and there is spiritual disciplines that need to take place.
if we go to the scriptures, we see 1 Timothy 4:8. Here, Paul compares physical training for an athlete with spiritual training for godliness. He states that physical conditioning is of some importance, but is less important than a godly life. The reason godliness is more important than physical fitness is due to its eternal value. I would agree that discipline is not a work to earn salvation, but it is still a good work through the grace of God for the practice and training in righteousness within the context of sanctification. If I am wrong please let know but that’s what I heard.
Willard NEVER says “It will produce godliness, it will sanctify you.” He says, “…Jesus was a master of life in the spirit. He showed that spiritual strength is not manifested by great and extensive practice of the spiritual disciplines, but by little need to practice them and still maintain full spiritual life. To have misunderstood this point was the fundamental and devastating error of Christian asceticism in the western church from the desert fathers up to the time of the reformation. Yet we look Closely and continually at Jesus, we do not lose sight of this one fundamental, crucial point, the activities constituting the disciplines have no value in themselves. Spiritual life is not fasting, prayer, frugal living, and so forth. Rather, it is the effective and full enjoyment of active love of God and humankind it all the daily rounds of normal existence where we are placed.” The Spirit of the Disciplines pages 137-8
Willard goes on, “The spiritually advanced person is not the one who engages in lots of disciplines, any more than the good child is the one who receives lots of instruction or punishment. People who think that they spiritually superior because they make a practice of a discipline such as fasting or silence or frugality are entirely missing the point.”
Thanks for sharing this quote. I was raised Catholic, and I am a bit sensitive to avoid practices and improper doctrines I was taught then. But we shouldn't throw out all the discipline because some people misuse it. Dying to self and keeping under the body are biblical teachings, after all.
What do we do with the numerous things commanded by Paul and Christ OUTSIDE of the Word, sacrament and prayer (e.g. giving, righteous living, fasting, restoring the sinning brother back to Christ etc)? I fear your view of what's Biblical might be omitting things which the Bible commands in favour of your "traditions"
Also.....do the authors you've reviewed ACTUALLY say that these disciplines ADD to salvation?
I wanna note the mention you made of buddhism and its similarity eith christian spiritual disciplines (or however way you phrased it), i wouldn't let that be the litmus test for if something is good or bad.
The devil has sent many things in the timeline to deceive believers to take what is good is bad. These comparisons is partially why mormonism is still alive (not to do that thing which i said not to do, but just to paint the picture! I hope it was a fruitful mention!) Many dismiss christianity bc of the similarities it has to other religions or beliefs, but that doesnt make them true! Let God be true and every man a liar! This idea is why some completely disassociate eith yoga (those who didnt even interact with it spiritual sense!)
Simply direct everything to Christ bc thats where all things will go anyways, that will be the firey judgement fof all of us, saved or unsaved (for saved, out works will be tested, we ourselves will be saved still)
Psalm 1.2 is about meditation (a spiritual discipline). Was that from Catholicism or Buddhism? 1 thes 5.17 says pray (a spiritual discipline) without ceasing. Was Paul quoting Catholicism or Buddhism? Jesus said, "When you fast..." Same question... Sigh... Yes, the disciplines can be misused and treated as an end unto themselves, but you can't say that Spiritual Disciplines are un-Biblical or from another source... People misuse Baptism... is it wrong when done right? Communion? Assembly? Be really careful with your wording...
This was a weird, unhelpful video (unless someone thought that disciplines make one acceptable to God). I doubt most viewers came to it thinking that. I certainly and wasn’t looking for a lecture on faith alone.
I’m sorry but it is wrong to say the discipline of reading your Bible is not in the Bible. Are confessions more biblical than the spiritual disciplines?
Confessions are simply that, a confession of what one believes. It’s a statement of faith. That’s all. Spiritual disciplines were design to promise spiritual growth.
@@THEOCAST Thanks for getting back to me! My reason for bringing that up is because it can appear that you quote from confessions with almost as much authority as from the scriptures. I don't mean for that to come across as confrontational as I do believe you are very sincere and appreciate your desire to protect sola fide. However, when it comes to making bold statements like some spiritual disciplines like reading the Bible are not biblical, I do feel this must be challenged and debated with scripture alone. For example, Hebrews (particularly chapter 12) and 2 Timothy would imply the opposite of what you boldly propose- in particular 3:15 onwards, which among other things tells us the scriptures can make us wise for salvation and can train us in righteousness- who wouldn't want that! Isn't actively consuming God's Word worth seriously pursuing and promoting? As a humble and loving observation, it can appear that you downplay the importance of reading scripture. It's good to make a distinction that these things do not save us, however, it would be great to see you encourage reading the scriptures and actively seeking God through abiding in His Word and denying the flesh as much as you oppose legalism. God bless you.
Spiritual disciplines absolutely promote spiritual growth. They are simply biblical practices - like reading or studying or memorizing scripture. The Bible says to exercise yourself to Godliness. The Bible says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Not work FOR our salvation.) And James talks about works after we are saved. And of course, during the whole process, God will bless us and gift us with incite and discernment and stronger faith.
The Bible tells us to not be a novice. As though that is command how does one become not a novice? Generally when we are learning a trade or a sport or whatever, we are a novice until we learn more about it. That comes by practice. Without practice and study our growth would be stunted.
@@Scary_Sary I think you nailed right in the head. I can't understand why anyone, specially from the _Reformed_ perspective, would claim that reading the Bible is not biblical. Sure, we can't find a passage that says "read your Bible", but it is inferred. Just like you don't see a passage that says "don't do ØnlyPhans", but it is obvious we should stay away from that.
I have noticed that Theocast is dancing too close with _Free Grace_ and that worries me because in their efforts to not sound legalistic, they end up leaving out clear parts of scripture.
I dont knw. But if paul washer tells me so, then it is.
If we are sanctified simply by believing then how do we grow in the Lord?
By abiding in the Vine, the branches aren’t the source of life.
But what does it mean to abide in the vine? What does that look like? I asked how we grow in the Lord? What does growing in the Lord mean to you and, as I asked already, what does abiding mean and how does that generate growth?
@@ransche1 when I think of “abide,” I think of rest, trust, and believe. As far as growth, for the believer, our sanctification was promised before we were born (Romans 8). If you are heavy laden and have no peace, Christ bids you to come (Matthew 11). Do you know Jesus? Have you placed your faith in him? Jesus said, “I come to seek and save the lost.” I encourage you to cry out to the Lord, he will answer! Scripture says, all who call upon the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved. I am praying for you.
I appreciate your prayers, but I am a saved man. My question is simply concerning spiritual growth. For instance, abiding in Christ will not teach us the Bible. Abiding in Christ does not develop us spiritually.
Also, you didn’t answer my question. All you did was direct me to a whole chapter, that doesn’t cover what I asked, and then you witnessed to me.
I understand that God keeps us. But sanctification is a process of learning and growing and developing a relationship. Learning the Bible is one of the best ways to grow in the Lord. It teaches us about the God who saved us and the process of continuing on Him while we abide in Him.
Calvanism is unbiblical
You use the London Baptist Confession and the shorter catechism as sources of proof for something and then quote a Bible verse express it. The same as you accuse the teachers of the disciplines as doing. You read that focusing on the disciplines is idolatry, but the way the Calvinists focus on their theology is a much worse example of idolatry.
You said that people look at the disciplines and see something off, but how many theologians look at reformed theology see that as false doctrine.
What does faith without works is dead mean? What does it mean exercise yourself to godliness? These are two examples of working through our sanctification. Work out our salvation in fear and trembling. The fact that your reformed theology contradicts these bible doctrines shows that you are teaching false doctrine.
Have fun with your salvation by works. Lol.
Work based salvation will not save you
@@corbinbrosneck790why do you immediately imply that the original commentator was trying to earn salvation? He was talking about Spirit Growth, not Justification.
_Free Grace theology_ has really messed up a lot of people...