Why I Left Lordship Salvation (PART ONE) | Theocast
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2021
- Pastor Jon Moffitt explains his journey into Lordship Salvation and how he left this theological understanding after diving deeper into the Reformed Faith. He explains some of the theological pitfalls Lordship falls into and how the reformed confessions share scriptural insight into our understanding of how God regenerates sinners. Jon is a graduate of the Master's seminary and now Pastors Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, TN (gracereformed.org)
A Critique of Lordship Salvation (Part 1) • A Critique of Lordship...
A Critique of Lordship Salvation (Part 2) • A Critique of Lordship...
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#lordship #lordshipsalvation #reformedtheology
Lordship Salvation made me a terrible person. Grace Salvation made me graceful to others!
When Christ gave the rich young ruler the “law” to obey, it was because he asked what he could “do” to gain salvation. He must obey the Law perfectly, and continually. Which of course no man can do, which is why we need a Savior.
Totally , he said good master , Jesus respond: why you call me good there is no good but one, and that is God ,,,,,, that’s the tip.
Your theology is flawed, Jesus does not tell us to do anything he does not also give us the power to do. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples to show his power to sanctify, but he expects us to keep his Commandments. If you do not keep his Commandments, you do not love him. (John 14:21)
@@sbhgamen1671
No, that was Jesus responding to a man who did not know he was the Messiah. God does not want mindless acknowledgement.
Messiah _is_ indeed good (since Messiah is God) and that proves the fallacy of your comment.
No, sorry. That isn't the reason. He says plainly after the rich young ruler left that its hard for a rich man to enter heaven. He even said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Jesus wasn't showing the man how the law is impossible to keep. Jesus was literally showing him the way of salvation. He told Him to follow Him. Luke 6:46 explains very well that Jesus expects his followers to obey His commands
@Adam H If you hate submission to Jesus, then that only shows you are NOT a child of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is so helpful. Thank you! I had a similar journey!
Thank you for this video it has really helped me
“I’m not who I ought to be, but hallelujah, I’m not who i was.” Voddie Baucham
You realise this quote is pro-Lordship Salvation, right?
@@JakeRuzi
"He that does not keep my Commandments does not love me." -- Jesus
Oops.
@@PETERJOHN101 Actually, it’s
‘If you love me, keep my commandments’. But yes, I agree with this 100%.
@@JakeRuzi If there’s been no change you haven’t been regenerated by the Spirit.
@@triggerwarning2982 Yepp, that’s true
I'm thankful for Lordship salvation. It caused me to be become so utterly beaten down and tired of the Christian life that I ditched mainstream fundamentalism and began to actually enjoy the Christian life.
Same !!!
Yes yes of course! "Enjoy the Christian life", just like Jesus did, ehh? Yes sir, Jesus was really enjoying his Christian life, wasn't he? I mean, even the great apostle Paul enjoyed his Christian life so much, HE WAS MURDERED FOR IT!
@@ifeetz7612
Indeed.
“And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.”
- 1 Corinthians 2:3
The joy of the Lord is our strength. That's different than enjoying your Christian life.
Enjoying your Christian life can be interpreted as enjoying your best life now such as Joel Osteen promotes.
The difficulty about writing and about the written word is that it is subject to so many interpretations and misrepresentations.
We don't have the immediacy of Christ's presence to answer our questions and to clarify his meaning.
With all writing,--even as with these comments, is we lack the person's tone of voice, their inflections, and even facial expressions to give us more understanding of their words.
But back to enjoying your Christian Life. The apostle Paul and Silas were singing songs of praise (I assume joyfully) while being locked and chained in a dungeon
Love you guys and what you guys are doing with this ministry. Viva la reformation
Thank you!
so excited to listen to this!!! my church told me i need to listen to this because ive been coming hard against this lately
Thank you for this message. You spoke directly to where I came from, the anxiety and introspection trying to figure out if my emotions and thoughts were correct. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, since we are now reconciled, shall be saved by his life! Praise God!
@@ThomasCranmer1959 what's your point?
@@ThomasCranmer1959 You're quoting scripture but you're not saying what you're saying. Be forthright. If you think Jude 4 is Theocast then say it. Because I think many people are going to take your comment that way. Perhaps you don't want to say it because you don't want to have to defend it?
@@ThomasCranmer1959 Thanks for the scriptures and for being more forthright in your views.
I used to attend a church and... there was a group of women there who started the whole self-inspection thing. I left shortly after that - although I didn't completely understand it, i knew looking INSIDE isn't looking at HIM. And in MY opinion, they were trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit.
I think I did this, believing I was being Biblical. Everything was turned inward to see if we were really obeying Christ, down to the minutiae. Not so much what Christ did for us. One woman quit the Bible study. She said it was too hard. It was a verse by verse study of Mark, but the questions I was given to ask were designed to be guilt producing. I agree-this was taking the place of the Holy Spirit. It had the effect of robbing some people of their assurance.
I have found this very helpful. Thank you.
I’m really enjoying this channel. Glad God brought me here. New subscriber.❤
This is beautiful Pastor Jon! Your journey is EXACTLY what I experienced! From obsessing over my own fruit and falling into despair (and consequently open sin)because of self examination, to peace, rest , and joy in the finished work of Christ! Thank you!
“I’m weary with my former toil
Here I will sit and rest a while,
Under the shadow I will be
Of Jesus Christ the apple tree.”
Thank you!
It’s almost like OCD obsessing about it all. It’s really terrible. Sometimes you hear preaching and think 🤔 I’m saved. And then you hear preaching and think yikes!
@@ladyesther that is really true!
Agreed!
This self-absorption or obsession triggers the flesh (aka self-effort). Romans 7 speaks about the destructive nature of self effort.
@@JhutaNabi good point!
The lord led me out of calvinism and it took a while for all the presuppositions that i was holding on to to actually leave , then i was able to see the text for what it truly said and not what i was making it say because of my presupposed
Theology that was instilled in my mind, i now live a better christian life without all the condemnation i was putting on myself through false teachings. I now have peace and Joy looking to Jesus as my
Savior and what he has done for me.
If you were putting condemnation on yourself it was due to a misunderstanding of Calvinism. If understood properly, the sovereignty of God in salvation is the most freeing truth one can imagine.
@@tsarkluaf197Actually, if you understood Calvinism, you should be scared to death.
@@tsarkluaf197 how can it be "freeing" when u have no idea if u are chosen or not? both Piper and Sproul affirmed that they cannot know for sure if the were "elect" until they die
@@tsarkluaf197If Calvinism is true then you have nothing to worry about. Either you are elected unto salvation or elected unto damnation and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So, if it is true, nothing matters. Just do what you do because it is all determined. Love your neighbour or hate them it doesn’t matter because what ever you do is determined.
@@darrenmaki7806 that’s not Calvinism, that’s determinism. I believe in human responsibility and God’s sovereignty.
Excellent 👍
Amen, so you have left lordship, those stories make my day, you are a walking miracle, Amen
Leaving Lordship is death
@@chrisanok9283 good luck with that 😆
On that perfect standard ,,, we say who could be saved, but Jesus said for man it is imposible but for God everything is possible. Glory to Jesus
Nobody is arguing for perfection. Paul said he had not attained it. I don't imagine anyone else can. That is far from living in sin.
@@JimiSurvivor even worse Paul said,)
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:21-25)
@@JimiSurvivor My point is not to promote sin, sin is bad. But to open the door to the Father that is on faith in Jesus Christ not by turning from sin. There is a lot of people that will drink until they die, they should be told the hope that’s in Jesus Christ, not until you quit drinking you can’t be saved.
@@sbhgamen1671
So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:21-25)
What are you saying this verse means?
@@sbhgamen1671
It sounds like you do not believe Christians can be delivered from the power of sin but that we must be in bondage to it forever. That is not what the NT teaches. One of Christ's reasons for dying was to free us from sin to serve Him.
Romans 6:17-18 But thanks be to God that, though you ONCE were SLAVES to sin, you wholeheartedly OBEYED the form of teaching to which you were committed.18 You have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become SLAVES to righteousness.
As far as Romans 7:21-25 is concerned, Paul was talking about what it was like when he was an (unsaved) CARNAL man trying to keep God's law. He also explains WHY he could not keep the law:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold as a slave to sin (Romans 7:21-25)
Thanks for sharing that Pastor Jon. Not that I ascribe to Lordship Salvation,I do wonder deep within if I missed it somewhere,as I pray 5 days a week in the mornings before work and yet miss on the weekend,also missed reading the Bible at times due to the business of life and other things;but it’s all in the finished work of Christ,He’s our perfection.
Our God does not keep score with these external things. It’s about our hearts toward Him, not checking boxes, as we all tend to lean toward. Also, on the weekends,you can “flash pray.”
amen... thanks brother
This was good 👍
I found this helpful! You should live stream sometimes
Thanks! Working on it
Jon: Thanks as a "Reformed" Pastor for your honest, biblical and courageous presentaion. You have a tremendous opportinity to speak into the pitfalls of this persuasion that can be way more effective than those that may not be wholly Calvinistic in their soteriology, like myself. You've indentified the major areas of Biblical truth with the spiritual and practical deficiences this error has brought. It's hurting the Church and causing undo division by those that hold this error so rigidly, that if questioned or cautioned, charge that we actually don't believe the Gospel. They are suspicious of every profession and are obsessed with an evangelism to the saved, who they beleive on the main, arent saved. The Scriptures warn us of such inquisitons: Matt 13:24-30 (parable of the wheat and the tares); James 4:11. Are there apostates in the Church? Are there false professions? Certainly there are but I must let God, the all knowing and perfect judge, deal with that which I have no right or authority to judge or know. Jesus warns us that in our persuit of inquisition for authenticity I can end up doing great harm to true believers and even myself as His servant. This will be a great resource to share with my fellow Christians who are caught up in this confussion. Thanks again!!!
Reformed doctrine is just as false as Antinomian "free grace" Neither existed for centuries after the Apostles
why do u still call urself servant we are no longer servants but sons of god there that makes us heirs to god galatians 4:7
Romans 4 is very clear on this! God Bless!
Great message. It's so easy to fall into this doctrine and it's dangerous.
(Despite my knitpicky critiques) This is a good teaching. I like how he spots the SUBJECTIVISM of L.S.
L.S. isn't DEPENDENCE.
Thank you!! I need the reminder. Your very good at explaining this, praise God I left Lordship salvation and Jesus showed me true freedom looking at him
So now you are "free" from the "bondage" of serving Christ?
A. In the Upper Room (after Judas left) Jesus told the disciples:
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
Notice that he says HIS commands and not the commands of Moses. His commands reach down into our motives.
B. The connection between love for Christ and obedience to Him is a recurring theme in the apostle John’s writings:
“This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands” (1 John 5:2-3).
C. When Paul described the Roman's salvation experience he expressed it as offering themselves to Him as obedient slaves:
17 But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly OBEYED the form of teaching to which you were committed.18 You HAVE BEEN SET FREE from sin and have become SLAVES to righteousness.…
(Romans 6:16-18)
And 1 John 3:22-23 says,
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment, That we should BELIEVE on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
I believe the other person was speaking of being free from the bondage of sin, not Christ smh!
There is ONLY one way in which we can be saved, which is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.
The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the Gospel.
We read the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Romans 3:20 is clear where we read,
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO FLESH be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 No, but some people are deceived into thinking that it is. Otherwise Paul would not have felt the need to remind believers that antinomianism is not the gospel. John had to make the same point to the Gnostics in his letter.
@@ThomasCranmer1959
(1). First of all, I am not an Arminian. As for your idea that "death" means that our wills are is paralyzed and INCAPABLE of choosing Christ, this is a misapplication of the metaphor. "Dead" does not mean inoperable nor did it indicate that the corruption was necessarily Total. The corruption of the Antediluvians was described as a process that took place over hundreds of years.
(2) When Adam fell do you remember God ever saying to him that, from now on, neither he nor any of his children would be able to submit to God's will? The image of God in him was certainly MARRED but not completely obliterated.
(3). DEAD is a term indicating alienation from the life of God.
Many, even under the Old Covenant, "walked with God" However, since then, God has commanded everyone to repent
@@ThomasCranmer1959
Arminias believed total depravity, that is in TOTAL INABILITY. I do not and neither did the Ante-Nicene fathers before Augustine. Paul said:
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the POWER of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17 For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”…
(Romans 1:16)
There is also the Holy Spirit who was sent to "convict" men of their sin particularly the sin of unbelief.
❤ excellent
I needed to hear that. My whole life I have been looking at what I’ve done and haven’t done to gain salvation. I cry out to god and say I can’t do what you ask I’m broken idk what to do everything I do is wrong but it’s not about me it’s about Jesus and what he did for us. I ask for prayers that I figure it out before it’s to late
MacArthur has so much to answer for. Preaching lordship salvation and suffering for the Lord while enjoying three mansions with swimming pools and tennis courts.
That's not even true
Macarthur´s eschatology will lead many to take the mark of the beast, to worship his image and the number of his name. Which Macarthur says you can do and still be "saved".
The "lord" of Calvinism is Lucifer.
@@lespaul382 Yes. And "lordship salvation" is relinquishing your soul to Baal, their god.
@@psalm2764 You familiar with John macarthurs Masters University in Isreal?
Amazing!!!Thanku Jesus! I can relate to you 100% I'm so grateful that God brought you guys together to create Theocast. I listen to it as I hold my newborn and I have such peace. I was dead n now I'm alive! All glory to God NOT me!
@messenger ministries Good grief
Amen brother 🙏
Thank you for sharing this. I stopped listening to certain pastors/preachers because having started by faith I found myself being lead into legalism. I never read The Gospel according to Jesus but I did read The Gospel under Siege. I think of 3 paths legalism, Faith, license. Stay on the straight path don’t rear off to the right or left.
We hear so much about "fruit" and "evidence" that it i s easy to fall into Galatian error. I got to the point where if I didn't let someone merge in traffic I wondered if I was "really" a Christian. I missed so many years of peace & assurance!
Or how would they account for individuals suffering through mental illness, PTSD & brain development abnormalities? What is the proper measurement scale of sound mind vs guilt?
@@jaysonb.6669 I suffer from a serious mental illness. Continuing daily prayer kept me from committing suicide. Every day I would renew my mind in the word
@@JimiSurvivor That's wonderful. Praise God! But just remember that as long as you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior by FAITH, through his grace you will be saved. ✝💖
@@jaysonb.6669 I stayed close to the word because I was desperate.
That is legalism. The fruit of the Spirit is what we are called upon to produce and every one of them lead away from bondage increase our quality of life Think about some we find difficult, like longsuffering, which has to do with being able to long withstand provocation. If we have it we will not react when people and circumstances tempt us to blow up. That is an advatage
I would love to see more folks get the revelation of saving grace . This is a huge topic debated in Christendom and we just keep praying for people to get free from this religious false gospel . God bless
Is doing the will of God the false religious gospel?
@@JimiSurvivor the will of God is explicitly stated in John 6:29 “this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent”
@@phineas8532
Of course God wants us to believe so we can be saved. However there is an obstacle within us that is our own self-delusion.
18 They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the IGNORANCE that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts (Ephesians 4:18).
The human heart is resistant to the light because it pierces the veil of self delusion This barrier must be overcome by the operation of the word and the Spirit:
Repentance is the souls response to seeing its sin.
30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands ALL PEOPLE everywhere to repent.
(Acts 17:30)
Unless we KNOW we are sinners we will not reach out to the Savior in faith. As Jesus said, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
(Mark 2:17)
@@JimiSurvivor there are no obstacles to believing or having had faith just once in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is the only precondition to everlasting salvation. Jesus’ gospel is easy: Matthew 11:30 “for my yoke is easy and my burden is light”
@@phineas8532 There are no obstacles as far as God is concerned. The only "obstacle" to taking his yoke is our rebellion. However the fact that Christ has a "yoke" tells is that we must submit to Him and obey Him. That is what the yoke meant:
Here, read it in Jeremiah:
1 At the beginning of the reign of Zedekiaha son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD said to me: “Make for yourself a YOKE out of leather straps and put it on your neck. 3 Send word to the kings of Edom, Moab, Ammon, Tyre, and Sidon through the envoys who have come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 Give them a message from the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, to relay to their masters:
(Jeremiah 27:1-4)
5 By My great power and outstretched arm, I made the earth and the men and beasts on the face of it, and I give it to whom I please. 6 So now I have placed all these lands UNDER THE AUTHORITY of My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. I have even made the beasts of the field subject to him. 7 All nations WILL SERVE HIM...8As for the nation or kingdom that does not SERVE Nebuchadnezzar...I will punish that nation by sword and famine and plague...
(Jeremiah 27:5-8)
Christ does not force His yoke on us but He does command US to TAKE it but the yoke represents obedience. It is not heavy because the Holy Spirit helps us to do what He says
AMEN!!!! I have always believed your explanation is what "Lordship Salvation" is....Didn't know there was different point of views on this. I also live in Spring Hill. I may visit your church!
I'd be very happy if this podcast episode was an hour or two long 😁
““But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?”
Luke 6:46 NKJV
Cause I’m a free gracer Lord
Sanctification is a life-long process. We get refined as we go, as we walk with Him and abide in His Word.
We obey God because he saved us and Loves us! God isn't impersonal. He is our Father and he loves us like Sons. This ain't some dark false god that wants you to work for your Faith!
@@Loislikes Amen!❤️
(1)It's not are love for Jesus or God that saves us. It's are belief and trust in Jesus that saves us. These are two different things. AFTER we are saved we receive the holy spirit then we better understand the love God and Jesus has for us
God for sacrificing his son
And Jesus for willingly suffering everything he did for the whole world to be saved. (2)By understanding this we love, we then love them back in return and start to keep the commandments.
(3)A saved christains heart can become hardened by thier own sin, persecutions, afflictions and ect
They are still saved it's just their hearts have become hard and mabye even overcharged
Are love is not what saves us, are belief in Jesus alone is what saves us. It's should be a natural reaction to Jesus's sacrifice to love him and keep his commandments but it's not an inevitablity
(1) John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(1)John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(2)Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(2)Ephesians 3:16-19 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
(3)Hebrews 3:12-13 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(This is an exhortation for saved brethren, using the illustration of Israel)
(3)Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Salvation cannot be faith and works. IT CAN ONLY BE FAITH ALONE
(Faith = Salvation)
(faith + works = damnation)
Galatians 3:2-4 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
I came out of the charismatic movement which was a lot of prophecies which were all false and a lot of not reading the Bible now I read the Bible my salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
Amen!
Not introspection, but extrospection - Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 12:2, Roman’s 5:17, 6:14, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21. Jesus IS the new creation within us believers. Keep on looking to Jesus!
When God convicted me of my sin and convinced be that I was a lost church member, it broke my heart. I didn't think God would or could love and forgive a hypocrite sinner like me. When I truly understood that God really did love me, according to the Bible, I called on Him. I Believed God. I fell in love with Him. He became my Lord and Saviour.
He's always been your Lord. He becomes your Savior when you put your trust in Him.
Iv'e been spending some time watching opposite points of view on this topic and It doesn't seem that someone believing in 'Lordship Salvation' would recognize your explanation of it.
I appreciate the explaination of your point of view and I will be watching part 2, but it seems there are points both sides are in agreement on that you don't realize.
Would encourage looking into book by Horton Christ the Lord
W video guys
amen amen
I am so grateful that I am no longer following Calvinist preachers. In fact, I should not be following any men at all. I should follow Jesus and his word. ❤ The topic should not be controversial. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works of any kind. Woe to any preacher that complicates Gods free gift. 🎁
I agree with what you said, but if a man is confessionally Calvinist, they won’t be teaching this Lordship stuff
The first point about being a sinner and a saint is not against Lordship Salvation(at least as espoused by people like Macarthur, Washer, etc.) They willingly admit that the saint is still a sinner and can fall far but that they will be waging war, and if they aren't doing that, though they may be saved, we cannot have any assurance that they are. This is directly what John talks about in 1 John and forgetting this takes away the (godly) fear and trembling the Christian is suppose to have toward making their call and election sure. This goes into the second point which was questioning your own intentions and others is a clear biblical teaching(though one must focus on the log in their eye on the individual issues so as to not be a hypocrite for judging when they themselves are guilty) of "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." Also justification is in Jesus who is outside but for assurance you must look at and test yourself to the word of God and so it is an outside standard that is looked at in you personally and again most main proponents do not claim it has to be a lot of works but that there are at least some. Go read the 18th Chapter of Westminster(which your Baptist confession bastardized) and it will clearly agree with Lordship salvation. Finally, the perfection argument is actually a strawman, you are talking about justification and then putting that rule across to assurances. Believing you are justified without any fruit is vain. So I can absolutely say that I am justified by the perfect life, death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that I have assurance through what He has wrought in me and by the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit and say as my forefathers did, "This infallible assurance doth NOT so belong to the ESSENCE OF FAITH, but that a TRUE BELIEVER MAY WAIT LONG, AND CONFLICT WITH MANY DIFFICULTIES BEFORE HE BE PARTAKER OF IT: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness." and "True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair." Your argument showed extremely careless strawmen toward the subject(at least as espoused by the main proponents) which shows foolishness toward the subject even when you claim to have a good knowledge of it, so I would implore you to repent of your careless speech which falsely painted our brethren, along with your wrong understanding of our forefathers words in their confessions(since the 2LCF section is the same as the WCF) by confusing salvation and assurance thereof(which is commonly pointed out by Macarthur, Paul Washer, etc.) Looking at the average pastor who might word it wrong and muddle the understanding does not mean that the men who have clearly propounded the doctrine have. Long Live the Lord Jesus Christ and May He Receive the Full Reward of His Suffering.
True love changes everything. If it's not about love for God first then our brother as self...we are forever lost. It's not about works at all. It's about loving God so much that you seek to know Him fully and follow Him more whole heartedly because He is so beautiful to give so much and we give so little back in return until we understand that He IS Love. He died that we might live with Him ... we die to self that we may live for Him and His good will because He IS worthy
Do YOU know him fully?
@@HarpsDad22 God will be my judge
As long as good works are needed to authenticate a so-called "true" faith (as your confession says), one simply has to be introspective. There's no escape.
Amen thank you for sharing your thoughts good stuff here ... My only disagreement is that progressive sanctification often puts people under the same mental bondage that lordship salvation often does... You said that one's own personal obedience can increase one's assurance.. I'm not sure how that would play out since our salvation is completely independent of our own righteousness and obedience and good works and the world is filled with people with a false assurance because of that same criteria.. God bless you hope your day is good..
The sanctification the believer endures is "Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of truth' II Thess 2:13. Sanctification is not sinning less, but believing the TRUTH! John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth"
@@brianc81 Amen.. Hebrews 10:10 ( And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.) I beleive it...!
@Janaina RibeiroThis video I made on that subject and those verses If you love me keep my commandments.. This should clear up your confusion..
God bless...
czcams.com/video/0HM-ZI5Rths/video.html
@Janaina Ribeiro Unfortunately I can tell from your comment you are very confused and bought into the modern day pop culture Christianity church system here's a video that I did on that very subject on how the fruit of the Spirit is born...
God bless...
czcams.com/video/gmnZTbErciU/video.html
@Janaina Ribeiro Obedience is BELIEVING the Gospel. We cannot please God in the flesh. Santification is belief of TRUTH. John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
Bible says test yourself, there should be a transformation of your spirit thru the Holy Spirit witch will change you life to overcome sin. We strive to be as holy as we can, persistence to the end. The goal to be like Christ 💯🙏
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
You can strive all you like to be “Christ-like” and still end up in hell. The moment you make a “commitment” to be like Christ-like, you are putting yourself under the law, and removing grace.
There is a reason why Jesus says “Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden. For I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Salvation is through faith in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Period. End of story. It is not achieved by “holy living”. That’s what Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and Hinduism teach.
If you read that entire context, you will see that Paul is being sarcastic. They were listening to the false teachers who were telling them that Paul wasn't a legitimate apostle. So, he was telling them that if they were questioning whether he was legit, they should question whether they are legit, because it was his preaching of the Gospel that they believed. Basically, by questioning whether Paul was legit, they were questioning his message! After he tells them to examine their own selves, he tells them that the evidence is that they have Christ living in them. And, if Christ lives in them because they believed the Gospel he preached, then it would stand to reason that they should recognize that Christ was living in Paul also. If you read it in context, Paul's entire point is that anyone who has the Holy Spirit living in them should never have to question whether they are "in the faith." The Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is the "seal of the promise" of eternal life, and the guarantee of the promise of eternal life. Once sealed, always sealed. The Bible also says that whoever is born of the Spirit is born of incorruptible seed that lasts forever.
I left the heresy of Lordship Salvation when I was presented the gospel.
I’ve watched up to 3:00 and had a thought on your comment that what you were taught ‘wasn’t always’ aligning with scripture. Based on what followed that, “conviction of sin,” “self examination,” “desiring to evangelize enough?” Are all Scriptural. What you just described was 1) working out your faith with fear and trembling (2 Cor 7:15, Psalm 2:11, Phil 2:12), 2) examining yourself to see if you’re in the faith (1 Cor 13:5), and 3) the call to the Great Commission (Matt 28:19), respectively.
What a wonderful explanation of the Gospel!
G race
O vercame
S in
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In John the disciples asked the Lord what works they must do [to be saved and be His]. He said the only work they must do is to believe in Him.
If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart the Father raised Him from the dead you will be saved. Romans 10:9
Well you see. In john 6 we only believe. But in romans, we must also confess. So where do we find the complete gospel since these are only portions of the whole truth?? From Jesus. We must repent
Here is the same gospel as Jesus described it in slightly different terms:
23 Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone wants to COME AFTER ME, he must DENY HIMSELF and take up his CROSS daily and FOLLOW ME. 24 For whoever wants to SAVE his life will LOSE it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will SAVE it.…
(Luke 9:21-24)
Jesus was speaking about SAVING our lives (or souls), "coming after Him" following and obeying Him as sheep hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him. Of course they BELIEVE in and TRUST the Shepherd. Following Him is an act of trust. It is not a mark of "deeper life" It is about living...period. No one is alive spiritually who has not taken this step
@JimiSurvivor then explain why roman 10:9 says all we have to do is believe in Jesus.
Isn't following him and believing he is Lord the same
Works is not the same thing as being obedient...This is where people get confused.." Works " is thinking that things like circumcision, animal sacrifice, burnt offerings etc. will get you saved, which it will not.
I’m reformer leaning. Thirsty. I’m not quite sure exactly what he’s saying but what I’ve come to terms with is I’m filthy rags no matter what, my obedience to “the law” is out of love and gratitude for the finished work of Jesus. I can never earn anything! I’m clothed in righteousness due to Christ alone. Is this the message he’s saying? Please be kind.
Lordship Salvation confuses discipleship and salvation. Even their idea of Discipleship is off because they never had faith in what Jesus did to begin with, that is why they supplement it with works.
I’m not going to convert someone and not disciple them. We are commanded to make disciples, not momentary converts.
@@saltlight7487 Why don't you read what Jesus said about becoming HIS disciple - have you forsaken everything? Your girl there? Your cell phone? All the worldly possessions you have ? Do you hate your mother and father ? No? Than you cannot be his disciple. You have no clue what you're talking about with all due respect. There are no disciples of Jesus now, we worship in the spirit. Go search how many times you see the word disciple in the books after Acts. Here's a hint, it rhymes with hero.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 I’ve forsaken what he has asked me to, as he reveals it. So far it has been sins that He has called me to forsake. Is that crazy to you? It is easy to follow Jesus bc he lives within me. So I don’t have to worry about being homeless or abandoning my family to follow Jesus. He is inside me. If these things become a problem he will reveal that to me. There ARE disciples. You don’t need to see a wording in the book of Acts for something to be biblical.
Matthew 28:18-20
King James Version
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19 Go ye therefore, and teach ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have COMMANDED you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Do you have an attitude about following Jesus practically today? I am sensing a strong disbelief in you.
@UCg4WyQ1wRUdhAVLGGBUiTZg If teaching repentance of sins means teaching them to be justified by the law that is what Paul did in acts 26. Repent and do works befitting repentance. I don’t do long division and gymnastics to ignore repentance. It was preached by all the prophets, Jon the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples and Paul.
Acts 2618 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
And Jesus says to teach people to obey him. That’s what I teach, if anything. I’m not going to share a half truth with anyone.
Jesus was calling people to actually follow Him on foot when he was saying those things. Now He is where my feet are. And I obey His commandments.
I’m glad you don’t preach stuff you don’t do, but perhaps you shouldn’t preach at all if you are not above reproach.
@@saltlight7487 So this is you just proving that you are a hypocrite and unlearned - one question - do you sin? If so, then do not tell people to stop all their sin. You are preaching works salvation - Paul said you who are justified by the law are fallen from grace. According to Paul you are fallen from grace and you teach people to do something you cannot do. Get yourself a concordance and see the word repent in the Greek means to change one's mind. So it's the Jews who had to repent of their belief in Moses Law for justification, and receive Grace by faith - Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Where does Paul say to repent here? See Acts is not doctrine - it is history of the early church and the Jews who rejected Jesus having a chance to repent. They had to change their ways completely - law to grace. Paul said we are DEAD to the law - and you are seeking to be justified by it, ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
Romans 3
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.(you)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.(saved people)
See so it's clear you are trying to work for a free gift and basically insulting the spirit of grace - Hebrews 10:26 is where you are at rn. Please read the scriptures more, you are not rightly dividing the word at all, just mixing it all together.
The book of John was written to save them who believe on his name - how many times is the word repent in the book of John?
0.
Good overall analysis! Unfortunately Calvin held to an arcane doctrine of temporary faith. Also unfortunately, Reformed theologians have been the main protagonists for a complex (tripartite or bipartite) faith which ultimately adds acts of the will into the definition of faith. I recommend the excellent Letters on Theron and Aspasio by Robert Sandeman or the works of the Scotch Baptist, Archibald McLean for a more careful definition of faith.
Reformed theology teaches that God makes us willing… so it’s still an act of will following regeneration. These guys do not teach historic reformed theology.
@@classicchristianliterature That is why historic Reformed theology is not Biblical on this matter. Scripture clearly teaches that faith is a gift of God and not an act of the human will, neither pre nor post regeneration ( John 6:29, John 6:63, Rom. 9:18, Ephesians 2:8,9). Reformed theology is similar to Arminianism on this, only Reformed theology says God regenerates us, infusing us with the ability to perform “assensus” to the gospel.
@@scottgordon1303 so humans even after being given the gift of faith are not willing to believe?
@@classicchristianliterature The elect, after given the gift of faith, understand that faith is a gift and not of the human will, as Scripture proclaims and so their salvation is of the Lord alone.
@@scottgordon1303 I believe salvation is of the Lord alone. I believe in sovereign election. You did not answer my question though, and furthermore I would disagree with your answer. Not all of God’s elect have perfect doctrine (so no, not all of God’s elect understand salvation the same way you do).
My question is, after being given the gift of faith, are men willing to believe?
Pastor Jon, i appreciate your use of the Scriptures in defining salvation. Where does Lordship Salvation disagree with what you believe though? I'm referring to how Macarthur explains it, not how it is perceived.
*Trojan Horses in the Church Today - Part 2: Lordship Salvation* 👇🏼
czcams.com/video/LDDxdUxvQWY/video.html
I had the same thought. Other than saying LS is wrong and that it states you must look to your own works, those who teach LS say all the same things he said.
Free grace is the Gospel period the end
This is the grace that brings salvation. Right here!
Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2 Corinthians 13:5
"No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." -1 Corinthians 9:27
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"- Luke 6:46
This is the grace that brings salvation. Right here!
Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
This rebellious denial of the Lordship of Christ doesn’t mean you believe the gospel more than anyone. That’s false humility.
@Stress stop being a Pharisee first and foremost, looking for catch phrases and verses or steps to save you instead of submitting to Christ. Here is a Pharisee check for you:
Here is what a Pharisee is not: a person practicing and preaching/sharing the truth of Christ. Not just in words, but truth and deed.
Here is what a Pharisee actually is, and they don’t all have to happen in order for it to apply:
Someone who despises the truth of Christ.
Someone who cannot admit they need cleansing from Christ.
Someone who words things in ways to absolve themselves from obeying Christ.
Someone who asks questions as a means to try and trap godly men and women in their words.
Someone who displays themselves as godly in public but is practicing sin in their private life.
Someone who refuses to repent and submit to Christ because they think they are good.
Someone with a lot of outward religion that has nothing to do with godliness but makes them feel better.
Someone who uses Scripture dishonestly like Satan.
@Stress I have scripture references for all of those markings of a Pharisee if you want them.
@@saltlight7487 Toward the end of Paul's ministry, Paul cried out that he was indeed a Pharisee.
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
@Stress bc they didn’t stop sinning, but thought activities would save them. Basically doing everything except what Jesus says….in His name.
Also the parallel of Luke for you
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
@Stress in real life I know a fornicator who feeds homeless people, and says she believes in Jesus. Will feeding homeless people wash away her sins? No. She needs to confess and repent and do what God says instead of trying to absolve her guilt with feeding homeless people.
Christian life is not easy or difficult... it's impossible. This is one of the most important things I've ever learned when i came to a more reformed understanding. Never before did i hear the term "lordship salvation."
I still try to be the best i can in terms of prayer, sanctification, loving my neighbors, etc.
I think John MacArthur would agree with what you are saying. “Lordship Salvation” is a label that is inadequate to describe the view of salvation. Yes, we are saved by Grace. And yes, the Holy Spirit leads us to good works. And yes, when we get off track we need to look to Jesus.
The reason “LORDSHIP SALVATION” came to fore was as a counter to the ‘easy believing’ movement that told people if you say a prayer with Jesus in it and say you believe you are saved once and for all. Matthew 7 and James are texts that make it clear that not every profession of knowing Jesus and loving him is valid.
If Jesus isn't yours Lord, you aren't saved.
Jesus is already Lord! Doesn't matter if he is yours or not. Stop mixing the teachings of Discipleship into the Gospel of Salvation.
This was instrumental in driving me from Calvinism to confessional Lutheranism: I was ultimately looking to my own works and efforts, because if I wasn’t feeling love toward God all the time, or if I was even struggling with sinful desires, I might not be elect.
I look to and rest in Christ alone now. Yes, I strive to be obedient, but I do it knowing that I will still need to come to repentance at the end of each day.
I did not need to go either to Calvinism, "Confessional Lutheranism, or to Antinomian free grace to escape fear. The Holy Spirit and His perfect love casts out all. God's expectations for us are not unreasonable especially when we consider we have the power of the indwelling Spirit to help us overcome temptation
@@JimiSurvivor It does not matter if you can live a great life to God's standards once you are saved though. If you think you can live up to the standard, even with the Holy Spirit, then give it a go, you will fail within minutes, as God sees the imagination of our hearts and they are sin. We are hidden in Christ for this reason, he sees no sin, he sees his son.
@@04Redeemed
Christ died so He could cleanse our hearts so that we could be inhabited by the Spirit. He did this so that we would have the power to live as He wants us to. This is exactly what the “new covenant in His Blood” was intended to accomplish.
I will give you a NEW HEART and put a NEW SPIRIT within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and you will keep My judgments and DO THEM…
(Ezekiel 36:26-27)
The promise of the new covenant was that the wellspring of our motives (our heart) would be replaced and that God's Spirit would no longer be with us but in us. This arrangement would enable us to walk in obedience.
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Apparently, you have been taught that His plan was utter failure. According to your own words no one, not even one who has the Holy Spirit "can exist even for even a minute without sin." If this were true then the New Covenant does not truly TAKE AWAY sin or dethrone sin from ruling the heart and mind. Instead, the blood only COVERS sin like a coat of paint or like the sacrifices under the Law which only covered sin but never took it away.
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Rather than CRUCIFY sin God renders Himself BLIND to it. If this were so God would never be able to rebuke us for our sins since they would be invisible to Him. However, when we look at the Book of Revelation we see Jesus Himself rebuking believers. How could He rebuke them if He could not see their sin
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Also when Paul spoke of the effects of the gospel in a person’s life he did not speak as if it were a mere book-keeping trick whereby God HIDES sin. Paul saw the gospel change people so that they NO LONGER lived in their sinful lifestyles:
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9 Do you not know that the wicked WILL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
The moral and spiritual change brought about in their salvation experience was evident in their lives and served as proof that they had been born again. Those who continued to be wicked or who later returned to it "will not inherit the Kingdom"
Luther was instrumental in executing thousands of Anabaptists for the "crime" of Baptizing repentant adults. What does that say about him?
"Why I left Lordship salvation" = telling people that they can be saved without Jesus. "YOU ARE MY FRIENDS IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDS" and "WHY DO YOU CALL ME LORD, BUT DON'T DO WHAT I SAY"? We do not need mere men to tell us what the bible is really saying, we just need to read it!
Hi from the netherlands, I'm just reading books of j.i. Packer which you will find interesting and say the same thing; books: knowing God and Keep in step with the spirit 😉
You characterization of Lordship Salvation seems to be a bit of a straw man. Jesus does indeed say take up your cross and die to self. However, the constant self examination you are talking about is legalism and works based righteous. I have never heard people like MacArthur advocate that view. That would be the Papists.
So are you saved by picking up a cross and dying to self? Or is that the result of one who has been saved and empowered by the Spirit to do so. We have two full episodes as well for this topic
I think you should watch this video it will help clear up your misconception about picking up your cross. czcams.com/video/3ZNnnmnb2Ig/video.html
We did an entire episode explaining the historical and theological meaning here czcams.com/video/0lUSPTkWMUI/video.html
John MacArthur teaches Works, that is what 'Lordship Salvation' is...Pre-packaged Roman Catholicism that has infiltrated Calvinism (aka the doctrines of GRACE) and it's so called teachers. Salvation is by GRACE and FAITH alone (Which God grants to the believer) and there is nothing else added to it, otherwise it becomes WORKS. Paul is pretty clear that Works and GRACE don't mix (Romans 11:6), which is why he said "and NOT of ourselves' (Ephesians 2:8-9), otherwise we would have something to boast. MacAuthur would declare a believer unsaved based on their 'actions' or 'works' , which leads to self preservation in Salvation.
@@brianc81 You should read Ephesians 2:10 as well. Works are the result of justification (not the other way around to be clear). MacArthur is pushing back against cheap grace, antinomianism.
We don’t look at our works to say this is why we are saved. We look at our works and say this is evidence that God saved us. Most blessed God our Lord Jesus Christ. Faith without work is dead!!!!!!
Works Is not a proof of our salvation, works is a response to our salvation.
I personally have come to the conclusion that Lordship Salvation is one of the many "Counter Reformation" tactics of the Roman Catholic Church. It make salvation sound like grace when it is in reality by works.
Thanks so much Pastor Jon Moffitt for your exposition of biblical theology on the errors of lordship salvation. I was so blessed listening to you.
I have a question what would separate your teaching on sanctification from someone like Steven Anderson?
I can relate to a lot of what you said and I came out of it and ended up confessional Lutheran. One question I have for those who are Calvinist/Calvinist leaning: Calvin emphasized the 3rd use of the law and, by doing so, led to the idea of lordship salvation. How do you guys view the 3 uses of the Law?
We have several video on this on our channel
Wow Jon Moffit. You have some hits and misses in this video. Today I will just leave you with this: Don't confuse Justification and Salvation. Salvation is a process, justification is a place along the path of Salvation.
What you have told at minute 1.05 is excactly what I think.
"Justification by faith alone but that faith has to be justified by works in order to prove our Justification"
= Lordship Salvation
Does any man here not believe that there is a sanctification process that takes time, when a seed is planted does the farmer see his field fully grown the next day ? X
Yes! You are exactly right! I agree 100%!!!
8:45 "Believers should pursue obedience and love." No, it's that believers love and obey, not that they "should." You really need to discern the imperative/indicative distinction.
You speak of love like it's a law to obey. Love is a belief in your heart that someone is precious and important, not the RESULTING labors.
So where would you place repentance in the order of salvation?
Funny thing most Calvinists tend to be Lordship Salvationists.
I’m neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist.
Lordship salvation is not a Calvinist belief. It primarily exists in Baptist circles because it is a general Baptist belief, not Calvinist. You aren't going to see Presbyterians holding to it for example.
I came across this quote from Paul Washer the other day (I’m a fairly new Christian). Very little rubs me up the wrong way, but this did. It feels legalistic.
“Avoid trivial pursuits. You are a child of God, destined for glory, and called to do great things in His Name. Do not waste your life on hobbies, sports, and other recreational pursuits. Do not throw away the precious moments of your life on entertainment, movies, and video games. Though some of these things can properly have a 'small place' in the Christian’s life, we must be careful not to give undue attention to temporal and fruitless activities. Do not waste your life. Employ the time of your youth in developing the character and skills necessary to be a useful servant of God.”
I can see both sides of this. 1) its unrealistic expectations! and 2) its main point is really, the last line.
But still, knowing Jesus in relationship is what's truly key. As He leads and guides you - as a shepherd with his sheep - He will develop/build your character :)
Absolutely and amen!
Paul Washer is my favorite pastor, but I will admit he can be over the top a bit sometimes… sometimes Paul can say some things that flirt with being legalistic. But I think he governs his life extremely limiting his Christian freedoms so that he can give himself the best chance to remain zealous in the Lord. So sometimes u gotta just look past what PW is talking about lol and live your life a bit… but I grew up listening to PW a lot so listening to these guys on this channel from pretty much an almost free grace approach is kinda nerve-wrecking a lot of times to me
@@Muzicboy3you believe in calvinism?
@@jimjoe9945 I will say I lean more towards the way the Calvinist believe vs how the Arminian believe. That’s what I’m more comfortable saying.. but you can say yes for sake of conversation
I'm new, I understand that Jesus always been Lord. As salvation is by faith through grace, as I read how Jesus not only spoke but lived a humbled servant to those who he was saving and those who apposed Him.
Also it declares to deny ourselves and those not before Jesus, which leads us through our salvation bearing the fruits of His HolyGhost.
I acknowledge I was a wretched heathen who coveted and a blasphemer in my actions.
Because we have eternal life and death has been defeated, this is something to rejoice, yet not boast in ourselves, because we bring nothing to our salvation, as we grow He adds unto us those faithful with little.
I listen to 7 Minutes of the video. And stopped because I couldn't understand anything. You had said so far.
If you have just gotten saved or you have accepted Christ 50 yrs ago. We must search the Bible for answers for yourself. Fortunately This message here is good.
Can you be Reformed while rejecting Lordship Salvation? I thought that was part of the package.
Well considering Presbyterians were Reformed before it was cool and they don't hold to Lordship Salvation, what do you think? :)
I reformed and still am free Grace.
Brothers and Sisters, God Loves you! Yes, YOU! He wants you to talk to him like a Father. We don't have to be afraid, for Jesus overcame the WORLD! HE overcame DEATH and took with him your iniquities. Don't let your hearts and faith be soured from false legalism. God wants your heart, not filthy works. The works will come, from the Love of the Spirit. We obey because we are already saved forever. We should have Joy and Light to show the world! Trust and Believe in HIM and what he did. God Bless you all!
What book(s) can I purchase to read these confessions referenced in the video?
The Bible is the best book you can ever purchase. It supercedes all of this
@@saltlight7487 of course, this obviously true. However, my question is specifically about the confessions. I am looking for literature around that specific topic as mentioned in the video. Thanks for your reply.
@@itsmejt3Since nobody else has responded, I’ll suggest the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian), London Confession (Baptist), and the Augsburg Confession (Lutheran). All of these point to Christ.
3:08 Tale as old as time: “I attended a university/seminary and they formed my theology / worldview.”
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
What does Paul mean by this if we aren't supposed to be introspective?
Paul means what he means in the clear reading of the text. The reason Theocast is confusing is because he claims that Lordship Salvation people ‘conflate Justification/Sanctification/Assurance’ but he himself does the same thing when attacking them(even though he only attacks a straw man.) The Traditional Reformed view of Justification: Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(WCF 11.2)
Sanctification: They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated[i.e. those who are justified,] having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, and really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and ressurection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the PRACTICE OF TRUE HOLINESS, without which no man shall see the Lord(WCF 13.1)
Finally, Assurance(I will give a longer reply here since this is usually what Theocast usually destroy by their bad doctrine): Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation(which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, ENDEAVORING TO WALK IN ALL GOOD CONSCIENCE BEFORE HIM, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make him ashamed.(WCF 18.1)
This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation[sanctification and growing in holiness would fall in this category], THE INWARD EVIDENCE OF THOSE GRACES UNTO WHICH THESE PROMISES ARE MADE, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.(WCF 18.2)
Thus infallible assurance DOTH NOT SO BELONG TO THE ESSENCE OF FAITH[Moffit erroneously claims otherwise], but that A TRUE BELIEVER MAY WAIT LONG, AND CONFLICT WITH MANY DIFFICULTIES, BEFORE HE BE PARTAKER OF IT: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of the ordinary means[Word and Sacraments(Baptism and Lord’s Supper)], attain thereunto. AND THEREFORE IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERYONE TO GIVE ALL DILIGENCE TO MAKE HIS CALLING AND ELECTION SURE, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness IN THE DUTIES OF OBEDIENCE, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness[Theocast does the opposite and inclines men to be loose]. (WCF 18.3)
True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some vehement tempation, by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light[Theocast base Assurance only on Justification and so view the loss of assurance as apart from these which is wrong]: yet are they never utterly destitute of the seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in meantime, they are supported from utter despair. (WCF 18.4)
To give the scriptural quotes from the confession in this would probably crash my phone so if you want to read them most websites with the Westminster Confession have them and the 2LCF does not differ on these in meaningful ways, Moffitt just never quotes the section of assurance even when 95% of his ministry is on assurance. Be careful if you continue to listen to Moffitt he is very dangerous in his views of salvation and assurance by conflating them(which I hopefully showed with the WCF) though a lot of people that comment here hate Moffitt since he is not Reformed or Arminian(and you might fall into the latter category and dislike my explanation).
@@valoraboveall5793This right here is why I am not Arminian. Too much introspection, and of the wrong kind.
What is Paul telling us to be looking for in our introspection-our works? No, that would be external. And who can judge their own motives? Only God truly knows. He is asking us to look at Whom we are believing. Do we believe Jesus is the only way to God, and that His blood cleanses us from all sin? Or have we mentally transferred that authority to ourselves, or someone else? Do we believe that, after justification, we can now work our way to total sanctification? Is there a point in this life where we can say we’ve arrived?
If we are trusting Christ alone, realizing that without His forgiveness we can never reach the perfection His Law demands, depending on Him to transform our hearts and minds, experiencing the gratitude this inspires, we will have fewer doubts when we face the inevitable trials we encounter in this world. We will cling to Him more, as He clings to us.
Jesus promises He will never leave us nor forsake us. It doesn’t say “unless we forsake Him.” We may for a season (to our own sorrow) but He keeps us in the palm of His hand.
Does this thought inspire me to walk away from my Lord and follow my fleshly desires because, in the end I’m saved anyway? No, the exact opposite. I don’t want Him to have to discipline me! Because He will, to get me to come back. I’d rather live in the assurance of His Presence, knowing that when I stray, like the Good Shepherd He is, He will nudge me back into the fold. Now I can live in the freedom He bought for me!
This what you describe at minute 10.00 is in German called : spiritual navel-gazing... And I remember very good how sad it feels.
Brother i am a former HAC student so I understand. O believe you are on the right track with your theology now. It becomes so clear reading how the Apostle Paul explains it. Id love to DM you sometime and discuss further.
What are you referring to with how “Paul explains it”?
@@-Thelordismyshepherd- Well all through the book of Hebrews it Speaks of Christ being our High Priest offering sacrifice Once for sin and doing away with the works of the law especially eye opening in Hebrews 9. And also specifically Galatians 5. I think you had mentioned it in your video. It spells it out so plain, so why do pastors try to sneak in works or a certain way of a Christian life to gage if we are truly Christians and merge it with salvation. You and I both know this leads to a whole host of problems. But the Bible is plain in it meaning if people just read and let the Holy Spirit teach you. (Key) We must seek him first
@@free0234
Would you consider yourself part of a certain denomination, or just a Bible believing, follower of Christ?
@@-Thelordismyshepherd- Well if you are referring to certain Baptist denominations that call themselves Bible Believers no. But I believe Jesus is who he says he is. I also believe in his work of Grace and Grace through faith alone nothing I can do to earn it or keep it. Also separate from Salvation the proper teachings of Discipleship that help us live in victory through him in our sanctification process
@@free0234
Question for you;
Do you still sin?
Jesus is always holding your hand as if you are a toddler, he loves you ! 🙏🏼✝️😉
Seems to be there's stricter lordship salvationists and less strict ones
Adhering to the "Saved by grace alone" or "Just believe" doctrine while throwing all the other verses out the window is a pretty gutsy move.
That would tell me that the apostle Paul was going around, preaching a gospel that goes beyond "faith alone". Paul said in Galatians 1:9 that everyone is accursed that preaches another gospel than the one he preached.
Taking only Acts 16:30-31 as the entirety of the bible would tell us that no repentance of any kind is needed for salvation.
Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
In addition, only the person asking what he needed to do to be saved would need to "believe". This infers that the rest of his household could be complete atheists, yet would be saved.
Are we having a contest to water down the Word of God until it has absolutely no effect?
If so, the entire population of earth should read ONLY Titus 3:5 and see that Jesus already saved us by His mercy and we don't have to do a single thing.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
If we take this one verse literally, without reading any other in the bible, one could come to the conclusion that:
1) They don't even need to "Believe in Jesus" to be saved, because this verse doesn't say anything about belief.
2) They don't need to hear the Word
3) They don't need to read the Word
3) No relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is needed.
4) Hell is completely empty because everyone already got saved by His "mercy".
5) Sin as much as you want to, because repentance (to turn away from sin) wasn't specifically mentioned in this verse, either.
If this is the case, then ask yourself: Why is there even a judgment of man (Revelation 20:12-15)? Why is there a Gospel? And why is there even a Bible?
It's as if we one has come to the point of saying, "Sorry God, but I'm not going to obey Your Gospel because, after all, obeying is a work."
If one is going to take the "minimalist" doctrine to the nth degree, then you should end up with something similar to the above.
Take this approach and you will eventually find out that God is NOT playing around. He will not be mocked and ignored. In flaming fire, God will take vengeance on those that do not know Him and do not obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).
The Word of God commands us to make our calling and election "sure", not "minimal" (2 Peter 1:10). It also instructs us to study the word to show ourselves approved (2 Timothy 2:15).
The best policy is to read the ENTIRE Word of God for yourself to find out what the TRUE DOCTRINE and TRUE GOSPEL really is and then OBEY that gospel. If you are genuinely seeking God on this topic, He will most definitely fill in the blanks on any questions you have. All you have to do is ask Him in sincerity.
When the disciples preached the Gospel, what did the hearers of that Gospel actually do?
1) They repented.
2) They got baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.
3) They received the Promise of the Father - The baptism of the Holy Ghost.
If a person truly BELIEVES the gospel, they will OBEY the gospel. In addition, once that individual experiences the grip of sin unravelling and being removed from their life and the POWER of the Holy Ghost living inside, they will NOT be ashamed of that gospel, even as Paul declared in Romans 1:16.
God provided the plan of salvation for all men, women and children when He was under no obligation to do so. This is the very demonstration of His grace and mercy.
Arguing against Lordship salvation is not the issue here. The real problem is that one can argue so hard against works that they take it over the edge and completely IGNORE and therefore REJECT the instructions given from the Gospel, stating that those are works as well. THIS IS DECEPTION OF THE HIGHEST ORDER.
Do yourself a HUGE favor. Don't take reckless chances with your salvation. OBEY the TRUE GOSPEL.
Wow. That was deep and well said. I agree with everything you said
your all over the place first we must understand the difference between the word repent or repentance and the words repent ""OF YOUR SINS "" THE SINGLE WORD REPENT MEANS TO CHANGE YOUR MIND!! thats it!!!!!!!! what ever words after that are what your changing your mind about , no where referring to salvation does the bible say repent of your sins , it says repent and believe the gospel , which is to say change your mind and believe what Christ has done for you , absolutely nothing to do with sin or behavior!! you add ''off your sins'' to fit your bad doctrine!!
next issue is you mix the message given to Israel with the message given to the body of Christ, and thats why your all over the place! this is the body of christ doctrine found in only pauls writings!! many mysteries were revealed to Paul only ! and he wasn't converted until after acts 9
Titus3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Romans1:17
For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “ The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:6
And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him…
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Romans 8:39
nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
colossians1:20
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
psalm103:10
He has not dealt with us according to our sins or repaid us according to our iniquities.
psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
2 corrin 5:19
For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.
then we must understand what it means to be justified and imputed the righteousness of Christ not our own!!!
@@wolfwatchers you don't understand the gospel my friend. And why did you stop Romans 8:1 short?? There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH.....
Nobody is saying we work for our salvation. We are completely forgiven once we believe. But as a result, we are transformed and we WILL have good works. We are given a new nature. We are indwelt with the spirit of God which molds us into the image of Christ. To say there is no change after salvation is the false gospel
@@heyjaja72 no ones saying there's no change we are saying its not a factor in salvation,
in order to be in christ you must believe the gospel! not change , do you believe a 11 year old can be saved?? will you see a completely transformed life !! in an 11 year old?
you get on a real slippery slope when you start measuring peoples change and or sins after they put there trust in christ its not up to us to determine whose saved if they believe the gospel their saved..!! lets say a man was a serial killer rapist and he trusted the gospel got saved now he just lies cheats and steals but the spirit has done a mighty transformation from a murdering rapist , but we only see a liar cheater and stealer and say he cant be saved he does all these things , point is we don't know , we cant judge, so we should not!
@@wolfwatchers but if what you say is true, then that means Jesus was wrong. Jesus said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit. He said we will know them by their fruit. Yet your saying we can't know either way. A man can live in open sin and rebellion but we must still believe he's saved because that man claimed he believed?? This is against scripture. Paul told the Corinth church to examine themselves when they were living in unrepentant sin.
Why doesn´t anyone make the connection between "lordship salvation", baal worship and free masonry?
Why would you believe that "no lordship salvation" is the way?
God's requirements of the saved are so much higher than what people are taught today. Too many lost people are sitting in churches today being told they are saved.
Works play no roll whatsoever in justification…but are the necessary fruit of justifying faith, which confirm our faith and our position in Christ, at the last judgement.
This was and is the historical position of the reformed church precisely because it’s biblical
“Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead by itself.”
(James 2:17 LSB)
10:20 2 Corinthians 13:5 (NKJV): 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you are disqualified.
I can’t thank you enough. I’m in the middle of “Gospel According to Jesus,” and won’t continue reading it any longer. I’m right where you described you were in your own life. We’ve been at a reformed church for 2 months coming from a Calvary Chapel background. I wanted more “seriousness” to the Christian life. The reformed church has brought us complete sense after a decades-long search. But, again, thank you for putting into words what I’m going through.
Have you read "The Gospel According to the Apostles?" That is the follow up book by Macarthur that centers more on the dynamic between justification and sanctification. For those that read only "The Gospel According to Jesus" I think will have an imbalanced view of MacArthurs views.
macarthur is a heretic