The Best Primer I’ve Heard on Israeli-Palestinian Peace Efforts
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- It is too early to talk about a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. With the trauma of Oct. 7 still fresh for the Israeli public and with the ongoing devastation in Gaza, any talk of conflict-ending solutions is cruel fantasy.
But it wasn’t always. Peace efforts in the Middle East have been tried over and over again. It is not a history without breakthroughs. There was a time when a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt would have been unthinkable. But that agreement lives alongside a long list of collapsed negotiations. Why?
I wanted to have someone on the show who could help me read this checkered history. Aaron David Miller is a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the author of “The Much Too Promised Land: America’s Elusive Search for Arab-Israeli Peace (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) .” Few people have been as intimately involved in the many Middle East peace processes as Miller. He’s a decades-long veteran of the State Department who has touched peace negotiations under the Reagan, the Clinton and both Bush administrations. His book is the best I’ve read on the peace processes and what went wrong.
In this conversation, we explore the frustrating, uneven history of Arab-Israeli peace efforts, Miller’s hard-won insights about the reality of peace negotiations and the idiosyncratic personalities who have most influenced the prospects for peace in the Middle East.
Book Recommendations:
The Peace Puzzle (www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/...) by Daniel C. Kurtzer, Scott B. Lasensky, William B. Quandt, Steven L. Spiegel and Shibley Telhami
Arabs and Israelis (www.bloomsbury.com/us/arabs-a...) by Abdel Monem Said Aly, Shai Feldman and Khalil Shikaki
The Missing Peace (us.macmillan.com/books/978037...) by Dennis Ross
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Rollin Hu. Mixing by Jeff Geld, with Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. Archival clips from A.P. Archive, CBS, C-SPAN and NBC.
I am almost 70 and have made several attempts to grasp the labyrinthine ins and outs of this conflict. After Oct 7th I was determined to wrestle this thing to the ground. Your thoughtful and careful discussion of the various efforts by numerous U. S. administration's to broker peace in that region has brought me full circle. I am sad beyond description with the inevitable ( and frequently arrived at) conclusion that peace in that region is unlikely to happen in my lifetime...if ever.
The Europeans have always had a ‘Jewish Problem’ throughout their history. They tried various types of isolation and extermination including ghetto establishments, pogroms, and the holocaust. Muslims never had. Jews lived freely in Palestine, Istanbul, Baghdad, Cairo, Morocco and other places for centuries. They actually flourished in Muslim Spain. Then in the late 19th centuries ideas like religious separation, liberal assimilation, socialism, communism, and others emerged. Zionism was their latest version. The same religious fanatics that persecuted the Jews throughout history began supporting Zionism. They don’t want the Jews to live amongst them. Zionists led by Theodore Hertzel held their First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland in 1897 and later British foreign secretary Balfoure made his infamous declaration in 1917, both with the same objective of solving this ‘Jewish Problem. That is how this colonial, imperial and now apartheid enterprise began.
@@bsahmed1A very articulate but sick and polluted expression of your hatred of Jews. Ah yes, if only the Jews lived under Muslim rule again as second class citizens and their occcational slaughter by us nice Muslims, they would be fine. Never Again! means you & that too. Its 5784 on the Jewish Calendar and WE ARE STILL HERE.
@@bsahmed1 It looks like you do not have google
Im just gonna quote something here:
"At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews and christians were inferior to muslims since they were Dhimmis (none muslim). changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).(8)
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.(10)
By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:
The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11)
The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN over partition in 1947. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world.
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen.(13) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
The antisemitism in the world had no basis. The jews never tried to overthrow governments nor acted in violence against their hosting countries.
Unlike the palestinians (as the PLO) that cause major civil wars in every country they were in - Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Egypt). This is why no arab country is willing to help them or take them in. Their only arab friends are the ones that commit far worst ethnical cleansing, mass murders and human rights violation than israel like Syria, Qatar, Turkey or Iran.
Arab violence against the jews existed dozens of years before Israel even existed. since 1850 until 1947 there was massive immigration of both jews (about 600,000 jews immigrated) and arabs (more than 1,000,000 immigrated) into palestine. both bought land completely legaly and no one was deported or kicked out of anywhere. if the jews are considered "colonialists" because how they settled in palestin, than the arabs are MORE colonialists because they did the same thing, but in greater numebrs.
But since the jews claimed they wish to have a jewish state in the area, and as mentioned above, there was alrealy a lot of hate against the Dhimmis in the arab world, and the muslims perception was that jews must never ever rule muslims, but only the other way around, the arabs acted in violence for decades before the israeli state ever came to be with the sole purpose to never let a jewish state arise. This motive ran through every single action the palestinian arabs ever done since the 19'th century until today. No wish for peace because pease means they need to accept a jewish state and they wish to destroy the jewish state more than they wish to have a state of their own.
In israel there is no hatered against palestinians or muslims as they are an integral part of israel's society (20% of israel) and they enjoy the same rights as any jew, including in the ability to vote and learn in universities etc. The problem is with the violence that comes from the West Bank and Gaza. It just so happens that the violent people are arabs (Palestinians) but it's not BECAUSE they are arabs. The borders are there to protect Israel and the borders did not exist until the violence rose (mostly by Hamas) in the 80's.
Read Shlomo Ben-Ami's latest book "Prophets Without Honor" for a detailed recounting of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process from the start of Oslo through John Kerry's failed and ill-conceived mediation attempt during the Obama administration.
Nonsensical diatribe 42:00 there is no counteroffer because the so called "maximalist" demands are already the bare minimum, they quite literallly only ask 22% of their historic territory and the commentators have the gall to call this outrageous and try to haggle some more.
I stopped listening once he said Henry Kissinger deserved the Nobel Peace Prize.
Completely shocked at that too! No mention of his treason against the Johnson administration that derailed peace talks in Vietnam? His role in bombing Cambodia? What he did in Chile? Cannot believe they discussed him in such an ahistorical way.
Uh, yeah, since Kissinger has been branded a War Criminal in certain circles.
Haha, it's actually _worse_ since they were referring to Carter's awarding of the prize _only_ (but it's good to know this was picked up on by others since I only realized this _after_ they brought it up ambiguously juxtaposing Carter/Kissinger's supposedly distinct approach and had to do a double take since...they both got the award...lol? - mentioned @ 9:30 - revealing what a farce the prize actually is and, as it turns out, has always been).
If we're being cynically suspicious of the contrived rhetorical utility of the NYT here in "manufacturing consent" for US empire, mentioning both would pretty much _necessarily_ undermine mentioning it all, as you've (and slm11848 with some elaboration - also check out Operation Condor, Operation Gladio in Europe with Aldo Moro's assassination, claimed by his widow to have been threatened by Kissinger personally immediately before if Moro followed through with tepid acceptance of the communist party into parliament promised after their proportional electoral wins not seen since immediately post-WWII; and the Italian "years of lead" as a whole, which is illuminating as to other aspects of our "strategy of tension", namely NATO as a political cudgel/protection racket over Europe - also massively indicts and reveals the duplicity of the also mentioned James Baker in his promise to a negligently panglossian Gorbachev to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" to get Germany "reunified" and consolidate US power, also unsurprisingly later involved with ENRON, etc. but I clearly digress lol...) pointed out.
As a slight aside to further emphasize basically all of these contradictions/lib apologia masquerading as some sort of "nuance" in a supposedly complicated of impossible geopolitical quandary, Nobel Peace Prize also given to Menachem Begin, who not only founded Netanyahu's lakud party, but its predecessor the so-called "freedom party" which in a letter to the very same NYT that puts out this podcast, Einstein, along with 28 other prominent members of the Jewish community, wrote that the then-current political party led by Begin was _“a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties.”_ (one can google this to read the rest).
I mean all of this can be explained and subsequently understood fairly easily with any understanding of historical _continuity_ (historical materialism), despite the deluge of contrived complexity to (consciously or unwittingly) create the illusion otherwise: from its very beginnings, political Zionism was a colonial-settler project (much like the US, displacing the native populations; think trail of tears, "manifest destiny", etc.), initially a bulwark for the British Empire backed by Rothschild oil money and utilized post-WWII to exert colonial pressure like tempering Nasser's Egypt for control over the Suez canal and obviously oil (leading to so-called "Suez crisis", muslim brotherhood paramilitary formed under Nasser in fact the factional precursor to Hamas) and following the 6-day war redirects its allegiance toward emerging US hegemony (secured with Bretton-Woods international financial system, US dollar as "world reserve currency" with unilateral control over IMF/World Bank), serving as a forward military base for the US empire in the "middle east" (West Asia)...hence the complete denial/absolution of an _actually occurring_ unexaggerated and unambiguous genocide backed to the hilt with US ordinance/support with flagrant disregard of uh...literally the entire world (as clearly observable in UN votes past and recent) occurring right now, an inevitable outcome observable throughout the entirety of this consistent continuous colonial project...
Or as Lenin succinctly yet accurately summed it up in 1903: _“This Zionist idea is absolutely false and essentially reactionary.”_
@@slm11484 Speaking of the Johnson administration, if unfamiliar check out the uh..."incident" of the USS Liberty (intelligence gathering ship sunk by IDF in 6-day-war, killing ~30 US sailors, Johnson excuses/buries the entire event). Hey how about that previous guy pushing back tepidly on Ben Gurion/the entirety of neocolonial imperial domination masquerading as "decolonialization" (e.g. Lumumba in Congo, Sukarno in Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.)...what ever happened to that guy...?
(Spoiler to not be pointlessly facetious: it's JFK of course, head exploded...lol...?)
@@Bisquick Speaking of whom, guess who just passed away?
Thank you for this thoughtful discussion. Sadly I came out more depressed as well. I would also like to thanks all those who commented for your thoughtful and respectful comments. They are by far the best I have seen on youtube. It give me hope we can have a conversation online without descending into chaos.
"The main problem is that instead of healing the past injuries, people are using past injuries in order to justify inflicting more injuries. And this, you know as a historian, this is the curse of history, that people try to save the past instead of saving the future. We cannot go back to the past and correct the wrongs which were done in previous years or previous decades, we need to look to the future." - Yuval Noah Harrari
Spoken like a true colonizer
@@John-mu2js Spoken like a true Russian bot.
@@John-mu2jsillustrating his point
The problem is that if Israel doesn't try to address the problems that it created with the 1948 Nakba and 1967 War and 75 years of occupation and apartheid, it is hard for Palestinians to have decent lives, and there will be no peace.
The problem has always been that it's not the problems Israel has created but the very existence of Israel that Palestinians have never accepted, right back to the original Peel Commission proposals in 1937 giving the Palestinians 80 per cent-plus of the land, which they rejected. But Israel now could/should offer a genuine partnership in developing a flourishing economy in the West Bank, like a mini Marshall Plan for Palestine, coupled with reining in the settlements, that might encourage the Palestinians to see the benefits of a peace deal
Ezra has been the most consistently helpful, levelheaded show - with a genuine attempt at being unbiased on the topic since Oct 7th.
I love how people who are extremely liberal on every other issue in America love to generalize and stereotype Palestinians.
Please share your truth.
Miller is correct to point out that the US is unduly partisan in favor of the Israelis, what is missed is that *even he* has difficulty factoring the dignity & humanity of the Palestinian cause into this analysis in its proper place.
I’d offer this blind spot has everything to do with the fact contemporary America has never dealt with the dispossession & degradation of Native American life.
The settler-colonial template manifests itself all over this conflict, it is beyond frustrating that such an obvious fact is never addressed when diving into the issue. The mental model has never been updated.
Which is why the US & by extension the English speaking ‘west’ are *incapable* of playing anything other than a co-belligerent role in the conflict. This will be true as long as the US’s political establishment and its actors avoid truth & reconciliation vis a vis the conditions of life and the absence of rights for indigenous nations in the western hemisphere.
It is impossible to negotiate peace while committed to upholding rights including the right to self determination and defence for one party while maintaining de facto dominance and subjugation over the other.
The US has been treating the Palestinian side like savage children instead of a sovereign nation *entitled to parity of esteem.*
Let’s be honest about *where that instinct comes* from and *the work it is still doing* in 2023.
This needed to be said. Thank-you!
Thank you!
I think it has more to do with one side, Israel, being western, modern and democratic, and the other being the opposite : conservative, uneducated, underdeveloped. The Palestinians are considered, somewhat, the black sheep of the region : another point westerners don't get is the Middle East, particularly Arab, mentality : and Palestinians have not endeared themselves to their Arab brothers and sisters, so naturally, the west is going to find it challenging dealing with them. Factor in these decades of destruction on a young mind (Gaza has a largely under 18 population) and it's hard to see where brutality stops and negotiations begin. Perhaps, as Thomas Sowell mentioned, "There are no solutions, only trade- offs".
Five minutes after I added a thoughtful comment, it was deleted. Given this disappointing censorship, I won’t bother rewriting it or ever commenting here again.
My comment which provided historical facts was also deleted. Seems like a theme.
@@northerncousin7862 My comment included historical facts, as well, facts that added missing context.
The best yet, by far. Thanks
I wish he considered further Ezra's question about whether Arafat ever had the institutional authority to actually negotiate. It was kind of dismissed as "If Arafat couldnt then no-one could", but I felt that wasnt answering the question.
What if *at that time*, the Palestinian authority structures were too new, power was not consolidated enough, for any Palestinian leader to successfully negotiate and have their public follow. But with time, patience, and nurturing of institutions, it may have been possible to get there in the future. That looked a lot more possible in the 90's than now, if only they hadnt rushed.
That being said, the point Miller moved onto about the nature and psychology of Arafat was very worthwhile. Not to knock Arafat for this specifically, just to understand this man was raised in a completely different environment than everyone around him at those negotiations, spent his life in a state of opposition and rebellion and managing militant politics. That could shape anyone in deep ways and make them behave in ways we find hard to understand.
Precisely my thoughts. While I support Israel's right to exist, the relentless toll on civilian life is gut wrenching. You have two societies that are diametrically opposed, yet need to find a workable solution since both are neighbours.
Thank you Ezra for your selection of guests and your own insights. Im a 77 year old USA Vietnam Vet, and you are the best ive heard to date.
I do like Ezra. I don't like the companies Ezra started, I don't like the reporting they do at all, but I've always found Ezra very rational and reasonable.
Vietnam is a fascinating story for understanding chronic conflict. The story (from the arrival of the Chinese in 111 BC to the ejection of the Americans in 1975) is remarkable. The story of Jews, Christians and Muslims in Palestine is also remarkable. The Jewish presence in Canaan to ejection after the Bar Kokba Revolt. The slow transformation of Palestine to Christianity and then Islam in the first millennium of our era. The upheavals of the Crusades then Zionism in the last century and more. All with the backdrop of unfolding history over 5,000 years. And prehistory over two million years.
These themes are worth study and understanding. They highlight the human condition and human progress.
@@jonathanhandy6504 we weren't " ejected" The sad fact is that we never should have been there in the first place, but the military industrial complex had to use up all the conventional weapons that we had stockpiled so they could sell the taxpayers more. JFK was hit because he did not want us in there. Johnson was easily bought off. Dwight D Eisenhower warned us about the MIC, but nobody listened. When you spend over 900BN a year on weapons of war, you have to use them somewhere, or somebody's gonna ask why. Our roads are a wreck, as are our bridges, people can't afford to feed their families, Veterans are dying in the streets, and 22 a day commit Suicide, yet we have over 750 bases around the world. We are still in Japan and Germany after defeating them in 1945. I could go on, but what would be the point. Oh, and we have all the oil we need right here, but we have a brain dead backward moron in the white house that cannot put two words together, let alone a cognitive thought.
Kerry was also very openly frustrated with the Israelis.
What I find lacking often in these sort of discussions is the Palestinian narrative with regards to the Nakba which according to this particular narrative is the cause of all the sufferings of the Palestinian people? That the existence of the modern State of Israel came into being with the displacement of many Arabs who have lived on that land before the modern State of Israel was established?
I am not pro or against both sides, I simply wish to understand the arguments from both sides as I am genuinely curious.
Some information to consider : yes, many Arabs fled in 1948, encouraged by the governments of the surrounding Arab countries (read the memoirs of the then Syrian president at the time who admits this). There were also a similar number of Jews who fled from Morocco, Turkey, Iraq etc. The UN only funded the Palestinians, and these same Palestinians have continued to live as refugees in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon to this day.
What also needs understanding is the Arab Middle East is a largely tribal region and the Palestinians are viewed as instigators in the region (see the history of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon).
Great discussion.. yet totally depressing
Is it possible that, instead of negotiating with A PERSON on the Palestinian side, is it time to partner with Palestinian groups, collectives, organizations, coalitions?
Listening to this experienced and credentialed diplomat, was both eye opening and heartbreaking. Here a man I consider decent and committed to creating “peace” can’t see how his tribal allegiance to the Jewish state prevented peace from happening. He repeats the line about “the US has a special relationship with Israel” as if this sentiment was a divine directive widely shared by Americans. Nope, my friend. Your affection for Israel is not universal and asking Americans to continue funding an immoral occupation and bear witness to do much bloodshed is wrong. The Palestinians have been duped by these erudite “peacekeepers” who did their best to appear neutral, but the results speak for themselves. As an American, I simply can’t forgive the consequences of a peace process that was designed to benefit one party.
This is a misreading of American very significant efforts to build connections and services for the Arab communities in the region. Egypt has certainly benefitted from American largesse for decades.
Jordan under Hussein was one if the first countries along to realise Israel was here to stay.
They didnt touch on a very sensitive topic. Is Islam compatable or capable of democracy and sustaining democratic institutions and stability in a Palistinian state?
Excellent discussion. I learnt so much, with much more to think about. Thanks for the book suggestions.
it's good to listen, but not to blindly believe anything wihtout further investigations
A lot was said about the formalities and issues surrounding the negotiations. Nothing much was said about the actually substance of the negotiations.
It's also helpful to remember what else happened in 1993... February: Ramzi Youssef, World Trade Center attack.
I honestly just want to know one thing and so far I haven't gotten an answer so I'm hoping that someone in these comments, who for the most part seem to be knowledgeable and fair. Or at least open minded and willing to allow people to have a differing pov which is becoming more and more difficult to find in the last few years. My question is, why exactly is the US government so fanatically standing with the Israeli government and the absolutely obvious genocide that the IDF is committing at the orders of Benjamin Netanyahu? If any other country in the Middle East were breaking just one of the international laws that the Israeli government has or literally threw the Geneva Convention out of the window having zero regard for the UN and even less respect for the nation leaders that make up the United Nations, the US would have dropped an atomic bomb on it by October 9th! Does the Israeli government have something on the US that BN is holding over our governments metaphorical head? I really don't understand why Biden, in the midst of a presidential election cycle knowing that the vast majority of people who voted for him in the first place, already wanted him gone because he promised he would only be a one term president and we didn't want him for any longer than that, we knew he was the only person who could get trump out and that's ALL we wanted. Now not only is he running again but he's basically pledging the United States allegiance to Netanyahu and the Israeli government and people knowing that democrats are disgusted by the fact that BN has not even once claimed that he wanted anything less than the removal of the Palestinians from all of the land that they claim is theirs because "God said so" please someone help me understand why the president of what's supposed to be the most powerful country in the world is letting BN run roughshod over our country and the United Nations!?!? ❤
There are many factors that impact why the US is reacting this way. One key factor that I would point to is the influence of pro-Israel lobby groups on the US government. They provide significant campaign funding, political donations, and hold a vested interest in influencing foreign policy in a extreme pro-Israel direction. There are many pro-Israel lobby groups that are very active in American politics but the biggest ones are run by zionist evangelicals (e.g., Christians United for Israel) and zionist Jewish Americans (e.g., American Israel Public Affairs Committee aka AIPAC). Additionally, larger lobby groups such as weapons industry lobbyists (e.g., Lockheed Martin, Raytheon Technlogies, etc.) have an even greater reach and influence. The US is the biggest weapons exporter in the world and Israel is one of its biggest buyers so ensuring the continued demand for American weapons in Israel would definitely be in their interest. In my opinion, t's all very heartbreaking and shameful.
I want to know the answer to your very key question too..
Another topic, it seems to me that Biden is leaning on BN very hard!!!! After all, he is not head of ally Israel but USofA.
How about I move into your house and after a few years I take over your home but grant you the use of 22% of it as long as I hold the keys to the house. If you're okay with that we have a deal.
Outstanding interview
Hi Ezra and Aaron. Since you both know Thomas Friedman very well perhaps you could ask him about this episode described in his NYT article "Foreign Affairs; Forgive and Forget" on August 11, 1998:
"In May, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met with the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat in London, presented them with a carefully balanced U.S. peace plan and told them each they had until the next week to say yes. If they did, the President himself would oversee the opening of final-status talks between them. If they said no, reporters were told, the U.S. would make clear publicly its plan and who was blocking it. Mr. Arafat said yes, Mr. Netanyahu said no."
Please ask Tom: did this happen or not?
A question: unless I somehow missed it, there was no mention of a crucial issue for the Palestinians that was iso clearly a major component of Palestinian requirements. Why was it absent in this discussion?
which crucial issue? he mentions different issues that were components of Palestinian requirements
Right of return
@@judithm.2399seems like the discussion was more centered around the actual willingness to make proposals for peace, regardless of how close the actual proposals were to making peace. he says that there’s no way the palestinians could have accepted the proposals they were given, but the main transgression was the lack of willingness to make a counter offer and the structural failings of the system of leadership on the palestinian side. we can assume right of return is part of what made those agreements difficult for the palestinian leaders
From what I understand: like it or not, right of return has always been a non-starter for Israel. First, because the descendants of the 750,000 people who left threaten a Jewish majority in Israel (you have to remember that many of the fleeing Arabs in '48 ended up in other countries, not just Gaza/W. Bank. Second, because Israelis are justifiably nervous about allowing enemies of their state to reside within their borders.
Is there anything that I'm missing about this that would make right of return a plausible reality?
@@andywrenoldsIt sounded from the interview that Israel was unwilling to accept a right of return either to Israeli territory or to any future Palestinian territory. The first part makes sense for your argument, but I wonder if the second ever got talked about. I imagine neither side would find this compromise palatable. However, it seems a reasonable assumption that any future Palestinian state would have enough autonomy over its immigration laws that it could allow displaced Palestinians into its borders.
History of these peace efforts still gives hope that it is one day achievable but de-historicizing the conflict, as in it all just began on 10/7 & dismissing the Palestinian narrative is not going to lead to it nor is an absence of honest broker.
Surprisingly, often from the ashes may rise moments allowing for tough decisions. Yet, sadly, America’s chapter in history being able to usher peace in this conflict is over!
Great interview! At 43:39 Aaron David Miller said: “the Palestinian claim that we have to settle for only 22%, when in fact we wanted all of historic Palestine. So any departure from that 22% we won't accept. But the reality is there was no counter offer.”
I’m not clear, which side offered 22% and which side wanted “all of historic Palestine”?
Ezra: Respectfully I urge you to read Slator's "Mytholgogies Without End", in which he takes you through the actual history of each of the respective milestone negotiations and contrasts that with the Israeli narrative of each. I think you would fine it illuminating. There was never a moment, even under Rabin, where a critical mass of Israelis were prepared to accept a viable Palestinian state.
I apologize for the typos.
if you care.... lookup this video and then you will know how accurate what you wrote was
Two-State Solution Debate | Gideon Levy | Proposition
look up my comment if u care about my opinion
... the truth is )))antisemitic(((
I completely agree. Jerome Slater's book is one of the best I've read.
The so-called "peace process" was never more than just a scam to neuter the Palestinian leadership and ossify the occupation. Israeli settlement building in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem -- and the dispossession of Palestinians in these areas -- has been unrelenting in the past 30 years.
Keep up the great analysis and interviews.
Appreciate this interview very much. All the most insightful questions are asked and the lack of any real hope to any solution is not in the realm of possibility, for the foreseeable future. A change in leadership in Israel is definitely step #1, in the shorter term. A legitimate Palestinian leadership is the most intractable part of this dilemma.
Please be aware that Netanyahu has publicly stated that he would never accept a two-state solution. He has also gone on record supporting Hamas as the means to separate the Palestinians as part of his strategy to make peace negotiations impossible. Palestinians are an occupied people and are entitled to resist, even with violence if necssary, under international law. Israel has convinced the world the world that the Palestinians are the problem when it is in fact Israel's uncompromising occupation. See mattsteinle2182 below.
What I'm hearing is that the world is expecting something from Palestinians that they are not able to deliver because of the way things are in Palestine (with spokespeople maybe not being mandated to truly negociate because the population is not necessarily behind them, etc) and if that's the case, then how does the world justify still expecting that any negociations will be fruitful. Is the world not guilty of expecting something that will never happen while people are dying? At what point do people try to find some other way of resolving this? Unless there is some effort in that direction, people will keep dying, pretty much for nothing since it seems impossible that things will change. It all seems so futile and pointless. People care more about possessions and the way they are perceived than they do about human lives.
Any more U.S. is no longer the mediator because the U.S. was a participant in the crime that Israel committed against Gaza civilians and children. It has to be others. Palestinian has to be a state with its own sovereign free to their own decision, defense, and law. Israel has to g return the land that the settlers stole illegally or become Palestinian because that land must be a Palestinian state and finally to give freedom to those children and civilians incarcerated by the Israel military.
Thank you Ezra and guest for this part of the important history.
Assuming you had all the prerequisites you say are necessary, I'd like to know what a two state solution would look like. Netanyahu promoted and facilated support for Hamas as a part of his strategy to defeat Palestinian statehood. Within the past week, he has reminded Israelis that he is their best deterrent to Palestinian statehood. Even with Netanyahu gone, I see no evidence that Israel supports Palestinian statehood. Why does your commentary seem to rest on the assumption that Israel would ever support Palestinian statehood?
This was very interesting about Arafat that his worse case scenario, i.e.being a martyr, was a more attractive option than any settlement with Israel, regardless of the give aways. Good question! How do you negotiate with a martyr? You can’t meaning you certainly can not negotiate with Hamas who are all about being martyrs! Just build a bigger fortified wall and leave negotiations about existing Gaza to Egypt, absent Israel and US. Israel needs to stop settlements in West Bank though. 🙏✌️
The kibbutzim don’t want any deal. They want land and more land and more land
Where are you getting this BS? Not true
@@hilashamon7739 i24 interviews with kibbutz member in Northern sector, about Oct 10-15? However no one can blame any particular person or group for the totality of the situation. Regardless as to whether I’m mistaken or not, a kinda uncompromising attitude that it took to persevere in the past conditions doesn’t seem irrational. Secondly older people get into mental ruts. The whole society is in chaos. I’ve got to admit my religious group “owes something to Israel”. However the Netanyahu (misp.?) gov has taken the whole society to a crazy dark place. This must be part of God’s plan, to make all of us suffer for our collective sins lol.
Free hostage peace
What happened to the ceasefire that was in effect on the morning of October 7 until Hamas broke it?
The problem is not just Palestinians but the rest of the Arab world, For Arabs Palestine signifies a lighting rod around which they rally the Ummah or Muslim unity against the autocratic rulers of their countries. Nationalism is a foreign concept for them, it is a battle of holy land not some artificial "state".
Too simplistic 😢
i am from there and what you wrote is one of the most ignorant things about arab countries. if you want me to explain why i can gladly.
Oh dear, you a misunderstanding of Arab nationalism. You need to read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom perhaps as an easy way to learn about the political aspirations of the Arabs of Palestine and Syria.
The GCC countries (Arab Gulf) are ready to get on with the new world and they want to do business with Israeli companies. Let Israel have its own country and move on.
Sounds like something Sam harris would say.
I am glad someone is focusing on the lack of leadership in the region, particularly on the Palestinian side. This has been an under-discussed element of the whole conflict. The method of the Palestinian cause has resulted in ever more diminishing returns and if there isn't a change in strategy soon, it will be lost completely.
In Gaza, the Palestinians are living in a concentration camp. In the West Bank they are living in a strictly controlled apartheid bantustans (government officials from Israel went to South Africa during apartheid times there to learn how to keep a majority population in check through the creation of bantustans).
Mr Klein, I commend you for one of the best podcasts with a historic inside perspective of over three decades of negotiations between Israel and Palestinian representatives.
Israeli American scholar Omer Bartov ( czcams.com/video/TBaf3LpNJeQ/video.html ) one among many experts, suggests the solution to decades and decades of d..th and suffering, is a confederation which would mean that there would be two fully sovereign states: a Jewish State and a Palestinian State and they would be along the borders of the 1967 green line. Key point in the confederation is they would make a distinction between residency and citizenship... lots of fresh thinking in a confederacy.
I haven't seen any better solution than forever d..th and brute oppression - a forever war between 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians.
I forgot to add this above:
Josef Avesar, an Israeli attorney, has an excellent discussion on the structure of a Israeli-Paletinian confederacy and its benefits. This peace solution won't be easy, but is certainly better than the status quo.
Find it by using the term 'Josef Avesar The Israeli-Palestinian Confederation Proposal'.
I too watched Omer Bartov 's youtube interview and reference to the two state confederation model and my response was that for the first time in many, many years, I felt hopeful--in a realistic,, practical way. In my subsequent search (Google Scholar) I discovered academic papers have been written on this topic for more than 10 years. There are so many components of this model that accommodate many structural aspects of the current situation which most people I have spoken to mention as reasons to explain their sense of hopelessness. I strongly encourage folks to check it out!
@@chrisd2896 Thank you for this reference! I think this is a model well worth considering and pursuing.
"The only difference between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is that Hamas wants to destroy us here and now, and the PA wants to do it in stages," said Netanyahu.
17:04 // !😳 did he just say "Vulcan mind meld"?! 🖖🤓 26:34 // !!! "... in a galaxy, far, far away..." !! (He's such a nerd!
You want peace? Tell Israel to get out of the occupied territories and recognize the Palestinian state.
What a wonderful interview! Thank you, Aaron David Miller!
Could also be better called the Israeli-Palestinian "Land" Process
Someone, it might have even been on this podcast, said that this entire thing REALLY is just two nationalist movements vying for the same piece of land.
When you think about it like that the entire thing becomes so absurd.
Hello Ezra..nice work..all the problerm its Jerusalim..and will not stop till we find a solution.i dont belive Islam have desire to deal eather christian Even they both are not older then jewish hebrew..Palestin have they land .if they like to be..good neughboor they have to stop deal with any fundamental group terrorist..good gest.thx🎉💙💙💙happy hollydays your family..agapi.
It never occurs to you both that the deal offered to Arafat simply was not a fair deal and that what he was asking for more than reasonable. To simply define it as part of the Palestinian narrative is completely unfair and playing into the Israeli narrative.
The problem is that you ignore that even the UN partition was not fair. It was 61% of the Palestinian territory to the Jews who made up 33% of the population and only legally owned 6-7% of the territory. That was a very unfair division of Palestine. In that light the 22% of the territory that Arafat asked for was highly reasonable.
To an outsider Arafat does not seem unreasonable at all. By the way Hamas has already changed its constitution.
It was simply not a level playing field. Anything agreed upon at the time would have only been on Israel's terms. This would have entailed not having Jerusalem as the capitol of the Palestinian state and no right of return for any of the Palestinians who were driven out in 1948.
3:30 Kissinger
Imagine trusting someone named Ezra Klein who works for the New York Times. It’s like a ZOG sandwich
War criminal
It’s like when you propose $200k for a house being offered at $500k, there is no counteroffer because the other side is upset at the .lowballing
But the owner really wants to sell the house (or so they claim) and there is only one bidder so a counteroffer is the only logical option in this scenario. The only reason you wouldn’t counteroffer is if the owner didn’t actually want to sell the house in the first place (which the bidder suspects is the case, hence the lowball.)
Its more like one side demands the other side to suicide for "peace", and is not ready to accept any other price.
If you keep coming to a negotiating table, keep declining any offer, never counter-offer and in the end come out with nothing...
Could not take this discussion seriously after you spoke of Kissinger as a peacemaker. That man has so much blood on his hands from countries spanning the globe. This conversation is what happens when two people unaffected by the war crimes of the United States and other western imperialists get together and discuss the atrocities endured by the global south. Totally dispassionate and lacking in human empathy.
I would like a simple answer to a question that is intimately germane to this situation. Why are we (the USA) stuck in the middle of negotiation in a matter that was clearly and completely the doing of Great Britain? They caused this, let them fix it!
I think the US uses Israel as a de facto military base in the region. Israel serves as a proxy for the West.. a foothold in the middle east.
Also, Israel protects the so-called Holy Sites for Western Christian nations.
Probably because having a strong ally in the Middle East serves US interests there. I think Biden said at some point (a long time ago) that if an Israel did not exist, an Israel would have to be created. Also, probably germane, the US has the largest jewish population outside of Israel. Those two factors mean that Israel is top on the US's foreign aid list (about tripling the next country on the list), which gives the US unique leverage in the conflict.
Because colonizers are going to colonize. White skin just takes what it wants especially if they are stealing from the indigenous people.
No
Absolutely Best deep dive podcast on the pre-history of the Israel-Palestine story is: Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. It’s like Dan Carlin’s hardcore history but…better
Could Palestinians populate an ''autonomous region'' of Israel?
The Israelis would love to corral Palestinians into a reservation or bantustan. The Palestinians, understandably, do not want that.
ohbullshit.
why doesn't 2 state solution work??? I am apolled that "you" claim it doesn't work.
There is lots of good analysis on that available online. A couple of points - land is too small, any Palestinian state would be too fragmented and nonviable for a healthy state, extreme mistrust... I can go on. Old doddering men like Biden and Abbas still entertain the idea. A confederacy would work much better if people are willing to think out of the box.
Palestinians will never let go of the pipe dream that they should rule over all the land of current Israel, in the Palestinian territories, that’s why they can’t except the deal, they’ve been told since birth if they just keep holding on, they’ll get it all eventually
There is no trust on either side for it.
Israelis fear an independent Palestinian state suddenly becoming a missile silo for Iran and/or other terroristic activities.
It's a lot hard to invade an area when it's an actual state with international recognition.
On the flip side, the Palestinians hold on to the belief all of Israel and Palestinian territory belongs to them and that they should never accept anything less.
The right of return
That's a non starter.
It's not a legal right. It's from one section of a multi-part UN general assembly resolution. The arabs rejected the resolution at the time but somehow swear that that one section applies in perpetuity...
My question is why was it not brought up in this presentation--the legality or illegality of it is not my focus. I am aware it was an issue that was put forward by Palestinians in talks with Israel. I 'm wondering what kind of role it played, if any, in the failure of peace talks along the way. @@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216
Again... In a confederacy of Jewish and Palestinian sovereign states, the right of return won't be an issue. See post above for detail.
A lot of tough issues to address: borders, illegal settlers, the status of Jerusalem and holy sites, right of return, and perhaps most importantly the growing hatred of the other on both sides due to decades of bloodshed.
I still believe that a peaceful resolution of the conflict is possible, but there has to be a strong intervention from the international community, especially from the U.S., to force Israel, the much stronger side, to accept a viable, territorially contiguous, and sovereign Palestinian state. Right now, it appears that the far right has taken Israeli society hostage, pushing for Greater Israel from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea at the expense of Palestinians. Hamas, of course, wants the same thing on the other side of the equation but I believe it would be easier to deal with them given the power dynamics.
There is no way you are going to bully the Israeli public to accept a national suicide and to create the conditions for another 7 october on a wider scale.
NO WAY.
One of the major reasons Israel occupies the territories it does is due to geography. The Judaea mountains overlook Tel Aviv and the Golan Heights has advantage over almost all of Israel. My hot take is , eventually, the Israeli demands may change and they’ll offer lowland in exchange for Judaea and Samaria.
@@harrypmaythe lowlands as in the Negev desert or where exactly? Will it be contiguous,viable as a state?
What about Palestinians having the west bank and be demilitarized something like the Arab initiative?
@@harrypmayCorrect. The Jordan is the only source of Israel's water, and Israel will never agree to Lebanon taking pot shots at Israel from the Golan Heights. Palestinian mentality over the years has endeared them neither to Israel nor their Arab brothers and sisters... the Palestinians cannot expect the world to support and give in to their demands if they themselves don't clean up their act, starting with accepting Israel as their neighbour and stop wishing for Israel's annihilation .
1967 borders
1967 are an impossibility, Jordan does not want to take Judea and Samaria on the "west bank" and Egypt does not want to take Gaza.
@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 I have never heard Egyptians or Jordanians say that once but maybe you know better. Could you provide a source for your claim?
Israel holds all the cards and the choice is theirs: Rhodiesia or South Africa
Israel has no need, will or capability to implement the Destructive, Brutal and Racist methods or/and resolutions of South-Africa or Rhodiesia.
South Africa was better as an apartheid nation.
@@ericcook7622 SA Its still is an aparthide nation: the racial quotas, racial preferences and other racial discriminations are there, just the skin-color was flipped.
@@ericcook7622 yes, but it peacefully transitioned away from apartheid where as Rhodiesia had apartheid violently overthrown
@@ericcook7622 I bet it isn't for the black population?
As much as I love his mind and talks I feel a hair of biased for Israel.
Ehud Barak offered the most that Palestinians will ever *get in reality* in the future.
There is not just one “American Jewish Community” in terms of political views. Many Jewish Americans love Carter.
Yup. Many zionists have the bad habit of lumping all Jews into a monolith - some even falsely equating Judaism with zionism. There is a huge international Jewish community opposed to this ethno-nationalist political ideology created in the 19th century.
Not many Americans love carter, and they have shown their strong displeasure quite clearly.
@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 I suspect it’s more a question of whether they’re Right or Left rather than Jewish or non-Jewish.
@@petercohen5563 Seems to me the figures show that Jimmy droped the ball for everyone, no matter who they are.
He lost second term in the biggest land-slide ever, and is still considred one of the worst presidents by many, all this could not have been done by the right alone.
Carter was an exceptional human being. He spent his post presidency working tirelessly for peace around the globe and physically worked with Habitat for humanity. He made mistakes, but he owned those mistakes and never blamed his advisers.
Could you please remove the distracting music? Thanks!
This is an extremely complex and complicated issue.
It's a religious issue - not about land or politics. It's about power, egos, domination, jealousy, envy and absolute control.
It's the ultimate "Spare" syndrome, the son that was not the father's favourite, and who now wants to destroy everything related to the father's favourite son,
One has to go back 4000+ years, to Abraham and his two sons, and the father of the resulting relevant religions discussed here - Judaism and Christianity (Isaac) and Islam (Ismael).
Isaac was Abraham's favourite son, and Abraham's designated heir.
Then go back to the origin of Islam, 1445 years ago, to Muhammad, how he killed many people to force others to convert to Islam, what's been happening since then (hence Islam cited as the fastest growing religion in the world - 2 billion Islamists across the world), and the ideologies of fundamentalist, radical and extremist Islamists, which is to obliterate all Jews, Israel, and all other world religions so that the world can be dominated and ruled by Sharia law.
There are placards and posters to this effect shown during the recent Pro-Palestinian marches. "Islam will dominate the world". This is not an idle threat, and not lightly said by the fundamentalists.
The 1988 Hamas Charter expresses this clearly.
Tom Holland, Jay Smith, Mordechai Kedar and others explain this quite well.
It can be argued that Abraham moved from Ur (ancient Babylon) to the land of Canaan (now Israel/Palestine), and if the Jews are the offspring of Abraham's son Isaac, then the Jews have every right to be there as well as the other offspring of the Canaanites ? Especially when one considers that it's not easy to convert to Judaism. One cannot just marry a Jew and become Jewish?
" One cannot just marry a Jew and become Jewish?" Is this a question or a statement?
Issac has nothing to do with Christianity. That’s some nutty Christian thinking you’re spouting in complete ignorance.
Mind boggling comment... like when you're having an ordinary conversation about a complex modern issue affecting everyday life of millions of people and suddenly the other person bring up the middle ages (except even more ancient) to express their people's superiority because of sibling favouritism.
How is deferring to more religious fundamentalist ideology (unless it was of the "love your enemies" or "turn the other cheek" kind of teaching) going to help, exactly?
This is NOT a religious conflict. Not by a very far stretch and you seem very confused. This is a conflict between the occupier and the occupied. It is a war between the settlers who have become oppressors and the indigenous population who have become the oppressed. Nothing more than that. Palestinians are Arab Muslims AND Christians. Religion is only very occasionally used, only as a facade when neccesary. There is simply polarized support from different religion towards different sides because people are just instinctively drawn to support the side they identify with better.
It is not and never has been a religious issue. No more than the conflict in Ireland was religious because the occupation force (the British) happened to be Protestants while the indigenous Irish were Catholic.
While Palestinians are majority Muslim, about 10-15% are Christian.
We would need a 10-year indoctrination program for both peoples for a two state agreement to work.
They aren't even ready to talk.
Israel society wants 2 states in exchange for security. There is a 75% majority for this. Only 10% of Palestinians are in favour of this. That’s your problem
@@abrooks, That isn't true. The majority of Israelis vote for parties like Likud, Tkuma, Yisrael Beiteinu and UTJ which oppose a two state solution. A Palestinian-Israeli Pulse poll conducted in July 2023 found that only 30% of Israeli Jews say that “reaching a peace agreement” should be the next step, whereas 31% of the Palestinians (29% in the West Bank and 34% in the Gaza Strip) say the same, so this is a problem on *both sides*. It is also important to keep in mind that Israelis holds the power to offer a two state solution, whereas Palestinians have to accept or reject whatever Israelis are willing to offer, which is why the world primarily blames the Israelis.
@@amosbatto3051 Remove hamas, then remove Netenyahu, and prepare to be amazed at the progress possible.
Right now, both sides are desperate, and sick of fighting&dying for survival.
It will be hard work and TMBrotherhood needs to be held at bay, but both sides are capable -one more than the other at the moment, but with the right intervention and help, it could be an amazing area of peace and prosperity.
This series has been exhausting trek into the middle of a desert, a little water and food remains, there is something on the horizon but I’m not sure if it is real or not.
It was never real, it was a chase after a mirage the whole time.
The direction that was taken was always a mistake, a delusion.
Time to go back, and devise a new direction.
The Palestinian "right of return"
It's not a legal right.
It's from one section of a multi-part UN general assembly resolution. The arabs rejected the resolution at the time but somehow swear that that one section of the entire resolution applies in perpetuity...
The self-delusion of the people who miscalculated their strategic position for an entire century straight.
ofcourse it does constitute a legal right this is why palestinian refugees are recognised as refugees by the UN. do not brush the rights of others away so others don't do the same for you.
@@philo9046 Yes, but the refugee status doesn't create a legal obligation that requires a breach of Israeli sovereignty. There is no legal right of return for them.
@@philo9046 This is a fake refugee status, there is no such a thing for anyone else, that a refugee status will pass to the next generation.
In a confederacy of Jewish and Palestinian sovereign states, the right of return won't be an issue. See post above for detail.
Jew right of return isn’t a legal right. You pigs can’t use your nutty religious lies to justify what you are doing to the Palestinians.
I have to give credit to Ezra for his coverage of this issue. I am a Sam.Harris listener but have been extremely disappointed with his views. He seems to be fanning the flames of hatred & division even more.
How Kissinger's outrageous misconduct could be overlooked in this interview kind of undoes whatever positive aspects it could have.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
one major problem which no one talks about. God's commands. The Israelis are commanded to follow the messiah. Jesus came and told them that he is the Messiah. The Israelis rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The Palestinians have accepted Jesus as the messiah. Mohammed (Peace up on him) came and told the Israelis that he is the messenger of the God. The Israelis rejected Mohammed as the messenger of the God. The Palestinians accepted Mohammed as the messenger of the God. Now the Israelis still waiting for the Messiah. The Messiah has already came and gone. The Israelis believe that the Palestinians are evil. The fact is that the Israelis are the anti Jesus the Christ.
I have a lot of compassion for the historic plight of the Jews, but it’s over. The Jews are ok now if compared to the long history of persecution. They are now a privileged class and well deserved. Why stay in Israel ? The best way to win the Palestinian conflict is to move out. The US and many other developed countries need and should welcome their immigration.
Also there is only 7 million Jews is Israel.
They’ve convinced themselves that they are natives to palestine… even though, most palestinians who are living there are native populations going ALL THE WAY BACK to the time of the roman expulsion of Jews who later converted to Christianity (although Israel has basically wiped any small Christian community that was existing like in Yaffa-a Christian palestinian town and now with bombing any and all Churche’s that existed in Gaza) .. Israel does not allow DNA tests (i.e. to check for ethnicity) for a reason.. The saddest part for me, is that the Jews have literally become what they ran away from. Its honestly so sad.
😂😅😊
We will be just fine without your pity.
And why would the party with more power do this?. No one buys this oppressed/oppressor morality in reality. And if you do give up your home to a homeless person on the street since you could certainly live on rent right and he is the oppressed one.
Where are the Jews privilaged class? In the west where they are prosecuted by Islamists, their leftist Alies in adition to the Neo-Nazis and the clasical European Anti-Semitism?
Left-Splaining: When a western leftist explains away what an Arab extremist has just said.
😅
Let's give them the honor of actually listening to what they say.
You keep referring to the continued instransigence of the Palestinian leadership as "the issues" that make it complex. Your entire conversation highlights this intransigence, and yet you still spend a lot of time dancing around it. The problem is Islam. Just say it.
I don't trust MBS in the long run for this very reason ALONE.
It would be helpful if you would address how the colonialist Islamic invasion of the Middle East, with its endemic policy of subduing, conquering, or erasing anyone in its path, is the actual root of this problem.
You also avoid the question of apartheid in Islamic regimes, and the fate of the non-muslims who used to live there in peace with each other, being very diverse compared to now.
Also, what did Hamas dobto the PA in Gaza when they took over?
The Camp David talks under Clinton in a nutshell:
"If I were a Palestinian, I would have rejected Camp David as well." - Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israeli Foreign Minister in Ehud Barak's Government and Israel's chief negotiator at Camp David.
No shit, you’re supposed to reject it and counter. That’s how negotiations work.
@@Agtsmirnoff Thanks for your reply. I assume we agree that international legality should represent the bedrock for any serious discussion. Therefore our definition of "concessions" should be made relative to that yardstick rather than using either side's personal wish-list. Against that framework, ALL of the concessions had already come from the Palestinian side - among them, the acceptance of the presence of 80% of the settlers on Palestinian territory. If you reject my offer to buy your house for a dollar are you obliged to table a counter offer of a dime?
So the context for the negotiations was the expansion of the West Bank settlements which proceeded at a rapid pace. In truth, Israel was pretending to negotiate over the division of a pizza while continuing to eat it. If I have already taken up residence in your living room and start occupying your bedroom, are you obliged to table a counter offer? Because "that's how negotiations work", right?
As you may know, the Camp David process (interrupted thanks to the actions of one Ariel Sharon at al-Aqsa) came to its ultimate end at Taba in January 2001 after both sides accepted the Clinton parameters (with some reservations). The negotiations at Taba were suspended BY ISRAEL because elections were imminent and "the pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted" according to Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was Israel's foreign minister at the time. The Taba talks were suspended with the agreement to pick up after the elections. They never did and the Palestinians are stilling waiting for the phone call from Israel's peace camp.
The problem of Israeli intransigence could not have been made more clear in the elections on 6 February 2001. Sharon won with a landslide receiving 62.39 percent to Barak’s 37.61 percent. It was then that the process broke down irretrievably -- not six months earlier at Camp David.
As an Israeli, I felt disproportionate responsibility has been placed on Israel, if only for the failure to even mention the vast resources Hamas has directed towards tunnels and weapons, instead of rebuilding the enonomic foundations and creating jobs, etc.
However, the complexity and dire outlook were clearly presented.
Israel keeps creating these terrorists by continuing oppression. America is waking up and I don’t want to fund this. Only solution is stop apartheid and 2 states and no more settlements
I think the blockade might have something to do with the shit state of the Gaza economy. Not everything is Hamas' fault.
It was Israel who built the tunnels years ago.
The Curse of Abel, everyone just expects Cain to be the murderer because of course he is.
Why is Israel stealing land, killing Palestinians on the Westbank? I think many like me in the western world is not very sympathetic with Israel, Israel always blaming everyone else than themself, Israel is the aggressor since 1947, I think we now in West are much more aware how this artificial Israel happened, very very unfair towards the Indigenous Palestinians,
No peace efforts by Hamas/Palestine, just peace efforts by Israel;
good job, Ezra (heavy irony).
you gotta be kidding. As soon as I heard the name of that war criminal, I turned this pile of manure off.
@myselftik "to work towards peace, there needs to be justice" - I disagree quite strongly. Justice, as the Palestinians see it, means the restitution of their land in pre-1948 Palestine and the right of return to that land. Israel can/will not agree to that, so I see the pursuit of "justice" as the main barrier to peace. Palestinians must accept they won't get justice in order to have peace. And in fact if they pursue justice they will get neither.
What there can be, however, is some acknowledgement of that injustice by Israel, in much the same way (some of us) in Australia acknowledge Aboriginal dispossession. But Israel can't acknowledge the injustice of Palestinian dispossession as long as the claim to that land is contested, so the Palestinians must accept Israel exists and give up the right of return before Israel can acknowledge Palestinian pain.
However - and I think this is ultimately the key to peace - I believe Israel can and must offer to be a partner in building a prosperous and flourishing Palestinian society in Gaza and the West Bank, which could be seen as reparation for the loss of Palestinian land in now-Israel, and would also build trust and friendship between the two sides. An unwillingness to do this, I believe, has been Israel's real failure in this whole history.
" Israel can and must offer to be a partner in building a prosperous and flourishing Palestinian society in Gaza and the West Bank". Israel already tried. Why would palestinians want a state when they have the money of international community for being refugees plus Iranian and Quatarian money for terrorism?
Christopher Hitchens put it best. 2 peoples want to live in the same place, both believing it was promised to them by God. They despise one another. Only a 2 state solution could be the answer, and serious people on both sides are committed to making it happen. The problem is that bith sides have committed factions determined to oppose it, who possess a hard veto against it.
With all due respect, that statement could not be more wrong. I implore you to do more research on the subject. This is a conflict between the occupier and the occupied. It is a war between the settlers who have become oppressors and the indigenous population who have become the oppressed. Nothing more than that. This is NOT a religious conflict.
Christopher Hitchens is completely misinformed or outright lying. One group: the current Muslims, Christians and Sephardic Jews in Palestine lived there for thousands of years. The second group: Zionists from Europe made citizens of the Sephardim and brought in Jews from the diaspora and neighboring Middle Eastern countries. The Zionist WWII veterans used their military training and British weapons to force the indigenous people out of their homes. Some were massacred and dumped in mass graves, descendants of the survivors are living in Gaza and the West Bank.
Arafat would have been assassinated soon after he agreed to any deal with Isreal. Giving up any land once occupied by muslims is prohibited by their religion, Islam. The same is true regarding those who ask for this theocratic authoritarian concept to reform. It cant because its original precepts are cast in stone. There is no Martin Luther in Islam, there are only those that were decapitated in the attempt.