She Polled Gazans on Oct. 6. Here’s What She Found.
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- The day before Hamas’s horrific attacks in Israel, the Arab Barometer, one of the leading polling operations in the Arab world, was finishing up a survey of public opinion in Gaza (www.foreignaffairs.com/israel...) .
The result is a remarkable snapshot of how Gazans felt about Hamas and hoped the conflict with Israel would end. And what Gazans were thinking on Oct. 6 matters, now that they’re all living with the brutal consequences of what Hamas did on Oct. 7.
So I invited on the show Amaney Jamal, the dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs, and a co-founder and co-principal investigator of Arab Barometer, so she could walk me through the results.
And, it’s a complicated picture. The people of Gaza, like any other population, have diverse beliefs. But one thing is clear: Hamas was not very popular.
As Jamal and her co-author write: “The Hamas-led government may be uninterested in peace, but it is empirically wrong for Israeli political leaders to accuse all Gazans of the same.”
Mentioned:
Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research Public Opinion Poll (pcpsr.org/en/node/944)
Washington Institute Poll (www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...)
Book Recommendations:
The One State Reality (www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/...) edited by Michael Barnett, Nathan J. Brown, Marc Lynch and Shibley
Arabs and Israelis (www.bloomsbury.com/us/arabs-a...) by Abdel Monem Said Aly, Shai Feldman and Khalil Shikaki
A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (iupress.org/9780253220707/a-h...) by Mark Tessler
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
When 10/7 happened Palestinians and their supporters poured out on the streets of Europe to say "We are devastated by this attack carried out in our name on the Israeli people". Yeah, right.
That's actually what russians did, even inside Russia. There are people who live under Ukrainian bombs in Russia proper and still are moral enough that they give interviews and state that they still support Ukraine
Ukrainians living under Russian bombs in Ukraine proper, or have I taken anything wrong?@@user-rk7nf1ot4b
@@user-rk7nf1ot4bPeople living under Ukrainian bombs in Russia? Seriously...
@@Jeanne90275 not all Russia, but some cities yes
So their tacit support for 1300 deaths allows your tacit support for 10000 deaths. With that morality im gonna guess you're an Israel supporter ...
So what do you call the Palestinians who worked on Israeli side, went back to Hamas and gave them a layout of where houses and people were? I call them Hamas.
We call them a small minority
@@minnievenkaton what basis do you think that they are a small minority
@@soltantio On the basis that only around 1% of Gazans even _had_ a day-only work visa into Israel. So whatever fraction of those people helped Hamas, it was less than 1%.
You run an Apartheid state, and the slaves rebel every now and then. That's human nature.
@pmurnion I'm not Jewish but you assume because all ""victims " are right about their struggle. I noticed you didn't mention who was the Palestinian ruler from the past...waiting
The fact that Palestinians don’t like their governments doesn’t mean they can’t hate Israel at the same time. Their dissatisfaction may be more about the fact that their governments haven’t done enough against Israel.
Obviously, that's your belief. One which would only deepen and prolong the conflict, cause even more destruction of Gaza and the West Bank and lead to greater death and suffering for Palestinians. Interesting. What are the UP sides to your hate?
Totally the same with ruZZians, that might flee from mobilization (Ukrainians, at least men are deprived of that privilege) and hate Ukrainians from abroad, arranging rallies, and propagate their imperialist, chauvinistic views
Basically you're saying that when combined, Fatah, Hamas and Marwan Barghouti, all terrorist incidentally, Palestinians unilaterally want a terrorist regime in charge.
That was my takeaway too. Whether or not the Palestinians actually want terrorists in charge, those are their choices and those are who they pick. So it didn't really sound any better to me.
Thanks for the summary. Maybe I don't need to bother watching it
Maybe they think of them as freedom fighters?
@@SO-SOgood Yeah. Real freedom fighters don't rape women and butcher children. Disgusting!
@@SO-SOgoodfreedom fighters fight the state. Not families.
As a Israeli it was so refreshing listening to a Palestinian not trying to undermine the sadistic atrocities and our humanity, while defending her people.
For me, the new line of friends and enemies will be drawn upon basic human values. Not nationality, religion or political affiliation. In that regard, the speaker is my friend.
It is very interesting to hear you say that. But just to give you a different perspective, and I hope a neutral one, I am Australian and used to run a cafe/cafes in northern India (Rishikesh, Dharmashala, Manali in 2014-16). As you probably know the largest number of tourists there are Israelis, most of whom have just finished their service and come and spend months/years there. I became friends with many of them, who were mostly awesome. But I was absolutely shocked at the way they talked about Arabs/Palestinians. It really felt like they were talking about sub humans. The words Palestinian and Terrorist were used interchangeably or as one. It was quite confronting. I do understand most had just finished their service, so have gone through quite a lot. Now I will be honest and say all the few Palestinians I have met have grown up overseas, and its pretty obvious that Oct 7 showed many dont have much respect for Israeli life either. But it was so obvious that there is so much hate and distrust on both sides, I really dont know how it will get resolved. I dont know maybe I just expected more from the Israelis who seemed much more like me than every other way.
@@stevenponte6655wow am neither too. I've been to Israel a few times. What i came to see is Israelis and Palestinians are not meant to meet. There are what Israel calls Arabs but are Palestinian Israeli nationals(beats me why they don't allow them their identity) walls, checkpoints, separate roads etc means interactions is almost nil. Both Israelis and Palestinians politicians,media, education system etc dehumanise,blame while both love using the victim card Israelis Holocaust and Palestinians occupation etc.
Sadly Palestinians under occupation have almost no basic rights, no hope and Israel's military, economic and political superiority is so vast that Palestinians feel they are doomed
@@Klopp2543 Hi, I'm an Israeli and I'm not sure I understand your comment (or at least part of it). Palestinians are Arabs, Lebanese are also Arabs. Arab is an ethnicity which includes in it all of the Arab nationals - Including Palestinian. When an Arab is of Israeli national he's an Israeli Arab. Sure, some may refer to themselves also as Palestinian but I do not see how it is an issue, I believe using the word Arabs is to not confuse them with Palestinians who are not Israeli - such as those from the West Bank / Gaza. Israeli Arabs\Israeli Palestinians have no issues whatsoever such as the ones you've described. They don't have their own separate roads etc, there are Israeli Arab judges, police officers, and even IDF soldiers. Those from the West bank on the other hand have these issues you've suggested, but this is always the case when you're not in peace and\or you do not trust your neighbor to not come and try kill you, as they do from time to time. People at war always dehumanize each other. It's just human nature. Ukrainians dehumanize Russians. Russians dehumanize Ukrainians. Most of the non-Israeli Arabs dehumanize Jews. Whites dehumanize blacks. Blacks dehumanize whites. It's just human nature. I agree that the occupation in the west bank makes Palestinian lives there hard, but even if there was no occupation of the west bank - it doesn't mean Palestinians could come and go as they please since they are not Israeli. There would still be boarder checks etc, they would still have their own roads, and there would still be walls to prevent infiltrators so that everything will go through boarder checks. Of course both people wants peace to just live their lives (of course there are idiots and extremists on both sides), but there is no trust between Israelis and Palestinians, and this is a bad loop I don't see a way out of.
@@stevenponte6655 Were those Israelis discussing Israeli Arabs or non-Israeli Arabs. Israelis Arabs are 20% of the Israel and are free and equal citizens in nearly all respects. They have equality of opportunity and serve in every labor endeavor from government to medical to technology as well as most of the taxi drivers. So, I suspect the young Israelis are equally afraid of Palestinian terrorists among those many (50%+) of Palestinians who want all Jews dead and party as well when Americans are dead.
Dude. you are not Israeli. and on top of it you're wrong. Israel will win
lol "ONLY 20% of palestinians prefer armed resistance to co-existance". And on other surveys it's as high as 60%...
She's implying there are at least hundreds of thousands and up to millions of palestinians who support violence more than peace and that Israel should take the first step by reducing it's security. This interview is wild.
Gaslighting at its finest
If its 60% of people, we are talking about more than one million people. But also under what circumstances are they answering the questions? Do they know about freedoms? Do they know what it is to live in a democracy? Then, there’s not much you can expect from these people. They are broken. Both physically and spiritually.
which other surveys? Do you have links? I'm not being a smart-ass - I genuinely want to see them.....
@@cpaul9269Have a look at "The Ask" experiment. It's a verbal interview. Most palestians say they support Hamas and very, very few privately say they want peace & 2 states.
The problem is the aggressive 20%. Germany only had 35% Nazis, and look at the evil and destruction they caused.
Why not poll on how many Palestinians believe Israel should exist. How many believe that the families of martyrs should be taken care. As long as the Palestinian people as a whole support attacks against Israel as was demonstrated by the demonstrations world wide in celebration of the original attacks by Hamas they do bear responsibility and it is no longer a generalization that they as a people are responsible.
Israelis also support the occupation of Palestinians by and large, and even celebrated and watched with popcorn the sniping of unarmed protestors. So this sentiment goes both ways, stop putting all the pressure on the far weaker side, as if the Israeli citizenry is so enlightened and magnanimous
It's a very small component of Israeli society that does that, far-right ultra-orthodox. They are fanatics. It's a far greater percentage of the Palestinian population. And plenty of Israelis criticize their government.
It is awfully presumptuous of you to say that the pro-Palestinian protestors are "celebrating" the Hamas attacks. And wrong for most of them. Most of us are protesting the way Israel is reacting.
@@DjinnandTonik They aren't. but you have Israelis that actually promote peace. Hamas murderd a whole 10% of an Israeli mostly Jewish organization that was bringing Gazan children for advanced cancer treatment in Israeli hospitals. the best sentiment from Palestinians I've seen is that they're tired of the conflict but would still vote to get rid of Israel.
@@BadAssElf810 so did you leave the protest when they started chanting "from the river to the sea"?
food survey:In the UK if those lacking food in the last month will have significantly RISEN since 2021. Gaza has a high rate of unemployment, compared with the jobless in other countries theyre far less at risk of hunger than others in war torn countries. less than 2 hours flight away Yemenis die of starvation in their thousands. Wheres the energy & protests about THAT🤬
You mentioned the antisemitic parts of the right but didn't mention the antisemitic parts of the so called left who are currently a lot louder and concerning.
They are not generally antisemitic, though. They condemn the settlements and the apartheid status quo, but they do not condemn the Jewish people as a whole, nor do they say that Israel has no right to exist. Quite the contrary, actually.
Just because you condemn an unjust act does not mean you condemn every person or political representation of the persons who are responsible for these injustices.
You need to be mindful that anti-Zionism =\= anti-semitism
@@kristalkristal2506 not as a whole. Only that every person in Israel is somebody who moved from US with the main purpose of stealing land from Palestinians.
It's worse than saying I'm not against Jewish people I'm against Jewish bankers
Do not confuse Zionism with Judaism.
Several rabbis have stated clearly that Zionism itself is anti-Judaic and anti-Semitic.
@@user-rk7nf1ot4b Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying.
She is naive or a liar. The Palestinians never accepted the right of Israel to exist.
There are no "both sides" in responsibility for the murder, rape, torture and kidnapping of 1400 civilians. This guy is so hateful against Israelis it's painful to hear him say what he does.
Yeah he talks as if Hamas has no agency over their own actions.
Hey im jewish and lets not pretend Israel hasnt done the same shit ok please
@satiricgames2129 they have literally not done anything like Oct 7th. They have never mass raped, tortured or kidnapped innocent civilians. Stop trying to two-side this story, your claim of your identity doesn't back anything about your argument.
@@satiricgames2129Seriously, you weirdo, WTF are you talking about??
Everywhere I look, I see instances of "NIMBY-ism". Communities object to having so many things built near them, be they wind farms, nuclear or other waste dumps, homeless shelters, safe injection sites, airports, power lines, skyscrapers, and a host of other things they see as negatively affecting their lives. In my city we even saw objections from the Chinese community against the building of a funeral home, because it would purportedly bring "bad luck" to the nearby residential area. So I can't for the life of me understand why Gazans are not absolutely FURIOUS that Hamas has situated their many military installations and weapons caches in residential areas and civic facilities and literally *invited* the destruction and civilian horrors we see. Sadly, while Israelis can express their own fury towards the Netanyahu coalition at the polls, Gazans cannot do the same for Hamas, which seems to be a military junta that rejects being deposed. But perhaps they don't see far enough to acknowledge that Hamas really did this to them.
Genuine question: I hear repeated as a truism that “the international community has been silent re: the Palestinians.” I find this confusing. If we take the example of just the UN: UNWRA was created uniquely and specifically to lend international support and funnel aid to the Palestinian people. It is such an unusually visible conflict that in the last year, the UN condemned Israel 15 times for human rights violations re: Palestinians. To give us a sense of scale, the UN condemned Iran 1 time. The UN is just one case in point of an extremely vocal international community that is at the very least pro-Palestinian.
agreed completely
I think "silence" is really about action. Sure UN have voiced concerns but nothing has changed. In fact it has become worse (ie more settlements, more bombs/missiles in Gaza etc.). That is what I think they mean.
@@stevenponte6655 also, as for silence, see the UN Women and CEDAW’s total silence on the planned and systemic rape of Hamas’s Oct. 7 victims-to the extent that they even learned phrases ahead of time in Hebrew like “take off your pants.” That is silence that directly enables further SA of current hostages.
@@saraleigh5336 I wasnt saying i agreed or disagreed. You asked a question, and I answered it with respect to what I thought the "silence" is referring to.
@@stevenponte6655 yes, I realize that and genuinely appreciate the answer. I think you pointed to an interesting angle about what constitutes action. I apologize if my tone translated as strident to you. Thank you for taking the time to engage!
The primary cause the collapse of the Oslo accords was a horrific terror campaign by Hamas in the 90s, sponsored already then by Iran.
No, Camp David was the turning point. Jamal is wrong - the PA did have a chance at a state, and they said "no" at Camp David. Arafat couldn't do it. Jamal is wrong - you can't just say "let's have another meeting" after you turn down the best deal that is politically possible. That descision bright down an israeli government, brought Sharon into power, and caused a hard reset on the whole process. The Hamas landslide 6 years later was the nail in the coffin.
do you fucking know what oslo accords are? why would a occupied country will accept them?
Correct.
And the primary cause for the founding of Israel was a Zionist terror campaign in the 1940s.
😂😂 No mention of the political assassination of Rabin I see. Never a shred of accountability for Israel. The people who called for his killing rule over Israel now. If Northern Ireland were as bloodthirsty as you they’d never have seen peace.
She's erroneously talking about Israeli occupation. There are no Israelis living in Gaza
Right, they police AND SEAL the perimeter by an air, land and sea blockade of the Strip. Meanwhile, they are also colonizing-terrorizing the West Bank.
20% of Palestinians WROTE IN armed conflict I'd imagine at least double that would have supported if you didn't try to frame the poll to bring out what you wanted....
You seem to willfully ignore the facts. All evidence indicates it's much more likely that 20% of Palestinians are furious because their own family members were killed by Israeli apartheid & violence. The wider view is that MOST (not just 20% of) Palestinians have been harmed by Israel. So given these two, it looks like very few Palestinians harmed by Israel still want to harm Israel.
Pay attention to @26:42. I hope you begin to see human beings as human beings, who JUST want to live their lives with families.
@keep-ukraine-free528 i think your point is unrelated to the comment you're responding to
I feel like she's giving tge rosy picture of what is really going on.
My take was a little different. I felt she was trying very hard NOT to put blame on any one side and putting responsibility on both sides. A fair assessment in my view. She was looking at the 'big picture' rather than pointing out individual acts of terror by either side.
she def decided to skip very improant details to suit her agenda
The discussion of political process hides the simple reality that when you look at a world map of war, corruption, and terrorist acts you are looking most closely map of islam. We just don't talk about how the Saudis killed over 100,000 yemenites, because it's just what those people do sometimes and none of our business?
Ezra, you mention, "one intention i have for my coverage here, is to hold true the humanity and complexity of both sides. Except for some truly lost parts of the left or the anti semitic parts of the right." How do you rightly condemn anti semitism from the right for what it is yet write off anti semitism from the left as merely being lost? Especially today in your country, in your local universities, that it is from the far left that we are seeing some of the most widespread instances of antisemitism that we haven't long seen in this country, at least in my life time. How do you not condemn this for what it is?
Well at least through Vox he has been part of it. In his guise as an even handed and balanced voice he has promoted very insidiously skewed and misleading critiques of Israel that are currently being debunked by Israelis - it was very eye opening to learn this. I don't have the links but you can search on CZcams.
czcams.com/video/P8bkqqvoGpc/video.html
@@vc5243 you know, I think it ultimately boils down to a grave mistake being committed in the west. Stop the mental gymnastics and know who your allies are because your enemies keenly know what they want to do to you
Ahud Olmert had predicted back then that Abbas's refusal to the best offer Israelis could put on the table, will be the crash of the Israeli left. And that's exactly what happened. The Israelis went as far as they could go, and that hadn't been enough. On their last meeting Olmert had told Abbas that it might take 50 years (if ever) to get a better offer from an Israeli leader.
Bear in mind that the offer was not rejected outright. Abbas needed time to study it. Whenever someone pressures you into sign8ng something without giving you a chance to look at the fine print what would your reaction be. That’s why the trope of say “Well the Palestinians rejected our offers” is so disingenuous. Nonetheless it was the best offer they would get but that doesn’t mean it was a good or fair one.
@@user-rv2zj8zu5b well, they also rejected the Peel proposal in 1937 which called for 75% of the Palestine territory being devoted to the Palestinian Arabs. Part of the issue is that the offer generally has gotten worse with time because the Palestinians along with Arab nations have attacked Israel in 1948 and 1967. They lost those wars and wars have consequences, often including the loss of land. Yet, the Palestinians and their supporters have tried to turn the story around and make themselves the victims even though they started wars of extermination (their words) against the Jewish state and its people. It seems more like they reject the presence of Israel than any particular offer.
@@jonathanbein5559 Israel has occupied the West Bank for 55 years. And then they built settlements. Even the evil Nazi German reich didn’t get that treatment. Building settlements p truly indicated that Israel had no real desire for peace.
To acquesce to the inevitability of repeated existential attacks on Israel in the service of making a distinction that can, if Israel is to defend itself, only be dealt with after the threat is dismantled, is misguided, illogical and totally misses the point.
IDF is fighting Hamas on a 2nd front: it wishes to minimize civilian casualties while Hamas wishes to maximize Gazan death counts.
czcams.com/users/liveLfCUyHJdgxo?si=EfVB6hFXQfet3WwM
This is repeatedly ignored - yet central. I have learned it is called “lawfare.” Attack, retreat behind human shields, ensuring western public outrage over high casualty rates. It’s a feature, not a bug. And international law has not caught up with the complexity of confronting it. They merely play their part by being outraged. And blaming the forces who have the impossible task of fighting it.
I would be curious to see the same exact poll conducted immediately post Oct 7. I think that would be very telling of public sentiment.
Considering we saw thousands of them cheering in the streets, they seemed very supportive
@@scarletsletter4466 Thanks for telling us misinformation & fake videos easily fooled you. Ask yourself: "why?"
@Santirata You don't understand polls. They ask specific questions -- in a specific context. If you ask the same question in very different contexts, you CAN'T compare them (the contexts differ too much). "Before 10/7" and "After 10/7" are very different contexts -- so the data would show different worlds. Today's context has Israel's brutality against MOSTLY ordinary innocent Palestinians, children, families - it starving them, denying medicines, etc. A new poll would implicitly reflect unjust Israeli violence.
@@keep-ukraine-free528 So you are claiming the videos posted by Hamas, showing the celebrations in Gaza were faked?
Let me guess, it was a US and Israel joint conspiracy theory??
@@keep-ukraine-free528 fake videos? faked by who? These are well documented facts.
Very disappointing that they elide the religious aspect of the hatred motivating this conflict. They minimize the religious support among Gazans for the attack. They pretend this is just some kind of political dispute and religion on both sides has little to do with the violence. I would have thought Ezra would be better than this.
Agreed. I feel like everyone also seems to overlook the Palestinian civil fighting between Fatah and Hamas during the takeover of Gaza. Hundreds of people died.. like it never happened. That's not normal democratic process.. that's a mindset. They're talking like these are normal political parties.
@leoraac I completely agree with you both. Can't believe this discussion completely glossed over the fact that for these Hamas extremists, this is a jihad they're waging. Calling them political freedom fighters is not the full truth. Call them what they are: religious terrorists. That's why they're perfectly fine brutalizing their enemies and sacrificing their own innocents because in their effed up minds, this is how they turn them into martyrs and get into paradise. Such a disservice to not have touched on this point. And in this regard, Sam Harris is much more truthful and direct in his discussion. Ezra tries too hard to be nice and not to offend thus sacrificing the 100% truth for "balance."
Conveniently, don’t let the facts confuse you.
Sorry, when she said "We are shocked we are devastated about what happened she lost me. We are shocked, we are horrified for you. We will stand with you. But what platform will allow for that exchange?" She lost my belief.
THIS PLATFORM WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!
And dozens more.
Where are the Muslims expressing those feelings? They are very few and far between. The reality is the Muslim world far beyond Gaza celebrates what happened.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is naive about her own religion. I'm generous.
As an Israeli the situation is a nightmare come true. I’ve opposed Netanyahu, on the basis of his lousy character and policies, for years and knew that something terrible was coming. I didn’t know what and never thought it would be this bad.
On the general issue, I understand how much Palestinians been disenfranchised. But not why their leaders have been supported and enabled by the west and other Arab countries. Their only hope would have been intervention to help them. But the prejudices against israel were so great they attacked israel, not the proper target, the corrupt Palestinian elite in both Gaza and the West Bank
You really have no idea , do you .
The entire world helps Israel . Including the Arab regimes and the PA
As long as Israel keeps ignoring the humanity of Palestinians this will happen
This Ezra dude needs to talk to Max Blumenthal. He explains what the Oct 07 was about . Israel killed the majority of the civilians .
To Israel it does not matter . Its pride was scratched . Israel needs to understand that the action of Hamas was legitimate and lawful. But some of its actions towards Israeli civilians are war crimes . But compare this to the IDF , Hamas is Santa Clause
As a goyim living in Britain I can claim no equivalence of experience with Israelis. Britain does not suffer the same level of terrorism and violence ( yet, touch wood). As to WHY crackpot Middle Eastern tyrants and terrorists who plainly threaten all of us get such rave fan reviews? It is because our higher education institutions are 100% owned by Marxist intellectuals. English literature, English history, books, stories, Shakespeare, all that dusty, harmless, dreamy old stuff is ground zero for an utterly hostile and utterly evil assault on any possibility of goodwill between anybody. One might more safely send one’s children to a HAMAS training camp than an English literature degree in Oxford.
Always blaming Israel. Never taking responibillity. 1600 people died by suicide bombings inside Israel.
Vlad Vexler, a British philosopher with a fascinating international background, often talks about the necessity of all parties to acknowledge some degree of responsibility for the actions of their state or community. He usually talks of this in the context of the Russian citizenry's responsibility for the Ukraine war, even those Russians who speak out against the war, but the same principle certainly also applies to the current war between Israel and Gaza today. I admit, I've never understood this view of responsibility so well as I did when listening to this podcast. Until the people on both sides acknowledge even the bare minimum of responsibility, for a situation, it will be difficult or even impossible to get out of this cycle of violence. This applies to both Gazan and Israeli citizen, the Arab/Muslim states, the US, Russia, Turkey and the global south.
It's also important to not conflate the idea of responsibility with blame. Blame is an important concept but can be used to try to shift responsibility entirely from one party to another. The need to acknowledging responsibility can never be completely washed away by blaming others.
There are those who are obviously much more responsible then others but unless we all acknowledge some degree of responsibility and resolve the situation must be fixed, those who do not make this acknowledgement of responsibility act at best as a massive block of inertia impeding the necessary actions to come to a better solution.
It's a difficult concept to get your head around but no less true. The Palestinians may have no sense of agency but by accepting at least the minimal sense of responsibility is to take that first step needed to regain that agency. Same for Israeli citizens, each Muslim and Jew, and for each of us here today.
Best comment here, and for all conflits. Sad that only like comesvfrom me, quite typical when an intelligent person speaks. Not all are to blame, but all agressor state's citizens are responsible to a degree. Responsibility get things moving.
@@dannydetonator Thanks, Danny. I wasn't sure if I was expressing the concept clearly enough. Thanks for taking the time to let me know that I at least came close.
Well sure, but the problem seems to be that once your society is overtaken by radical Islamists, speaking out can get you executed. It's a strong argument for not ever letting it happen in the first place. Unless you can speak, how can you take responsibility meaningfully?
I've felt very similar since the beginning. I've yet to see an official on either side make even the vaguest reference to their side having to take responsibility or atone for anything.
Excellent comment. Couldn't agree more.
Well done Ezra, you guys are bringing light not heat to these questions and that's exactly what we need, especially at this moment
That palestinians didn't agree with Hamas politics concerning corruption, doesn't mean, they didn't agree on the Hama terror towards Israel.
Israel is to blame for the failure of the peace process, while the Palestinians did everything to support it. Including terrorist attacks.
Ezra, I really would appreciate to hear someone from Palestine who gives us insights into the matter without prejudice.
Such a biased comment. Why do you assume the professor/pollster is prejudiced? Did the truth pinch you? You missed the truth:
The truth that she clearly said is that corruption is "just another layer" of injustice that Palestinians suffer. She said Palestinians see Hamas is dictatorial, & it arrests Palestinians. She very clearly said "Palestinians don't support Hamas." Please pay attention.
Seems like you’re the one with the closed mind. Stupid people everywhere!
…Palestinians did everything to support it, including terrorist attacks?
Loved this podcast. Thank you.
Loved listening to this interview. What a great way to refocus everyone on the commonalities and on hope. Thank you!
I really appreciate the resource cites in the written remarks under the content. This was a good use of my time. Thank you.
At 8:56 and multiple times after that she says Israel Occupation. What occupation? Israel pulled out in 2006.
Ezra, just wondering if you have ever spent any time in Israel, or lived there?
amazing interview!
Brillant discussion. Thanks for the insights! ❤
Ezra: thank you for this island of humanity & rationality. I appreciate -- savor! -- the opportunity to hear your discussions with people who, like Professor Jamal, are knowledgeable, thoughtful, sane & humane. 🙏🖖🏻
In the first 3 minutes you already say something that demonstrates your utter lack of understanding. Israel’s weakness, with regards to the threats to its existence, isn’t that it loses its moral restraint. In fact, it’s completely the other way around. If you would understand the Middle East and the actors there, you would see that trying to uphold noble western values (that your own country only started to uphold after it became an empire and eliminated all threats to its existence) is the whole reason that these attacks happened in the first place.
Then for some reason you completely ignore that the survey reveals that the vast majority of the Gazan’s support terrorism and the ideas of wiping out all Jews from the area (because that is who they said they would vote for and support), and somehow continue to talk about it as if it reveals the opposite. Not to mention that it’s implied that Fatah hold an opposite position to Hamas when it comes to killing Israeli civilians, which they really don’t (Fatah are the people who also committed hundreds of suicide bombings and terrorists attacks against Israeli civilians)…
To clarify, I’m not saying that Israel should abandon. It’s moral western values, but to say that it is its weakness is simply demonstrably not correct.
Yet only 41% of Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006. 34% voted for the Palestinian Authority. Thus 25% weren't sufficiently motivated to vote for Hamas or anyone else. That means 2/3 of the population were not enthusiastic about Hamas.
Given the facts you state about the reality of the region, and thus the need to abandon certain Western values, it seems that Israelis will never "feel safe" there. Ironic since that is something they say they need and are entitled to and they chose to be there.
In 2006 the reaction to knowing that 66% of Gazans were not with Hamas, the Israelis could have targeted Hamas in more efficient ways(through intelligence, etc.) and offered Gazans more freedom, aid, and good will gestures to help that 66% to grow. Yet they reacted with more sanctions. 17 years later Gazans are angrier, more desperate and more vulnerable to supporting Hamas or similar movements.
And let's not forget that Israel has continued taking land from Palestinians illegally throughout these years. These also can be seen as inhumane actions. If you want your enemy to stand down, then you have to also and stop taking land and imposing more sanctions. That said there will be uncooperative elements who will continue expressing their hatred through terrorism and subjugation on both sides, but over time this approach may bring peace. Israel will never be able to eliminate all the hostile Arab elements in their region; it is simply impossible. Both sides need to accept that any peace effort will o:asionally be violated by rogue actors and extremists. It seems to me Israel has always reacted to these with out-of-proportion responses.
@@BadAssElf810 and yet, both Hamas and the Palestinian authority support Terrorism against Israel. It's official policy for the Palestinian authority to give money to families of terrorists who murdered Israeli civilians.
Besides, militant resistance can still be moral. targeting random Israelis absolutely isn't. those are plain terror attacks and nothing more. they could have always just targeted the settlements with harassment. you're talking as if they have no agency over their own morals in how they resist. screw off. you're dishonest.
@@BadAssElf810 I did not say that there is a need to abandon western values, I just said that the misinterpretation of what is Israel’s weakness demonstrates the utter lack of understanding of the situation and the middle east in general by the speaker. As is your point about supposed stealing land which has nothing to do with the reality of the actions of Hamas and the response to them. The “sanctions” on Gaza started because of the terrorism picking up and in order to stop hamas from acquiring rockets and bombs and not the other way around. It’s just better, to use the westerns left language, that white folks coming from a far place have some humility and acknowledgment that they simply lack fundamental understanding of the regions and its inhabitants and stop applying western Christian logic to the situation. But then again, I guess that if one can take the fact that hamas won the elections, and twist it to say that they don’t have the majorities support, while ignoring recent polling that the majority agree with Hamases actions and path against Israel, then there isn’t much point in explaining the nuances because most likely the truth won’t change one’s conviction.
@@inteliov If you condemn terrorism then you need to also condemn practices that create terrorism. Israel has engaged in practices that breed terrorists for decades.
Only 41% of Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006. 34% voted for the PLA. 25% didn't vote. Terrorism increased after Israel's extreme Right wing sabotaged every tentaive peace deal too. (BB has bragged about his part in this.) Then during the great March of Return (2018-19)peaceful unarmed protestors were picked off by israeli snipers - most protesters were hundreds of yards away from the fence posing no threat to the fence or to any person. You can see this for yourself in the documentary Gaza Fights for Freedom. These are actions that incite terrorist backlash.
After the 2006 election when 66% of Gazans did not vote for Hamas Israel could have worked to increase that number. Instead BB brags about how it is important to support Hamas financially and in other ways.
Even if Gazans got the peace deal they want tomorrow it is almost for certain that there will be individuals who will occasionally commit terrorist or hate crimes against Israelis because they still desire vengeance. And there will be israelis who will continue to
sometimes commit hateful acts against some Palestinians. Nothing is achieved by using them as an excuse to commit collective punishment and undermine peace deals.
If Israel succeeds tomorrow in executing every member of Hamas there will be new extremist Palestinians that they have created in the process. This is all truth too. Yet they claim they want to "feel safe."
There is nothing Western or Christian about these facts. They are just facts.
One hostage got away, but the "innocent civilians" captured him a brought him back
Palestinians have had and still have an above their geo-political weight to bring peace if they choose it... But the majority want "from the river to sea", where Israel and the Jews that live there should be made to disappear... More than any other obstacle, including the Settlers, the Shas party, and the current right-wing government that has exploited the Palestinian lack of support for the two-state solution, it is the not-so-secret desire held by the majority of Palestinians to fulfill a prophesized downfall of Jews in Israel. PLO leader Arafat knew this and backed out of the best chance for a two-state offer given to the Palestinian people. If and when the Palestinians truly want peace, no settlement in the West Bank nor anywhere else will be safe from the Israeli bulldozers. But as Golda Meir stated, "When the Palestinians begin to love their children even more than their hatred of Jews. There will be a chance for peace".
18:39 no no no every time there were terrorism. EVERY TIME YOU CAN'T JUST "FORGET" THIS
Very helpful.
The claim that if just both side take responsibility, then everything will be fine? There are bullies and there are enablers of bullies.
lol
The explanation of Palestinians not being responsible for Hamas continuing for decades is feeble.
It is difficult to deal with Hamas but not impossible.
There is a reason Palestinians have been kicked out of every other neighboring country.
Palestinians needs to come to grips with how they interact with others.
@@ruthhenry9577damn thats crazy, Palestinians still need to accept that Israel isnt gonna disappear and they have to coexist if they ever want the blockade or occupation to end
@@ruthhenry9577 never said "ALL Palestinians" are Hamas. Just that Palestinians as a whole need to accept the basic reality of the situation if they want anything to change.
@jamesbennett5430 Exactly!
Thank you, Ezra, for this highly informative discussion. Keep up the good work.
informative my ass! information from a zionist is by definition a lie!
Is Hamas or Israel the warden of the open air prison… this guest seems to say it is Hamas.
There was no occupation by Israel of Gaza prior to October 7
The problem is that Hamas is located under Palestinian land and it is very difficult to imagine it in vacuum.
need to make periodic survey as results from previous survey change. good luck BUT i really hope something good can still come out of this hopeless situation. hoping against hope,...
What I've been most shocked by in all this chaos is that Israelis and Palestinians call each other monsters apparently all the time even when they are Gen Z. But there are also people on both sides who talk about getting along with their neighbors.
and they are here in the United States right now
Why do people keep acting like islam and its culture has nothing to do with this? They're literally fighting under it's banner.
do you accept that zionist do this horrific theft under judaisms name? you don't right? because you are not capable
Generally informative but the fact that you didn't include an Arab supremacist 1 state solution in your polling when this is the ruling party's (Hamas) goal, shows that there were some beliefs that you weren't interested in seeing.
Could you write the name of the book re commendation
Ideas for Gaza End Game. Use digital technology to gather identities of refugees wanting to accept nonviolent solutions to this territorial conflict. On the ground volunteers offering aid and asking for volunteers to invite individuals to register as nonviolent problem solvers.
Benefit for registering nonviolent, future housing in a secure highrise building to be built in the Gaza area. Create a ten year Homestead program giving nonviolent citizens the opportunity to own a home, actually take title vs renting. Rise and Repeat.
A rather good idea, though I see many problems in it's implementation. And I wonder, too, how many takers there would be? My understanding is that the Palestinian people want THEIR lands/homes back, no equivalents or trading land in one area for another.
This lightly and carefully tip-toes around the poll that showed the majority of Palestinians are not only anti-semitic but pro-genocidal.
Thank you Ezra. You are a truly exceptional human. We need more like you.
Compromise is never a feature of “movements.”
A one-state solution is not viable because of demographics. What about a three state solution where each of the two statelets is made up of emirates like the UAE? This is a natural model of governance for the Middle East.
Then why were Gazans celebrating Oct. 7?
Amaley Jamal is a true professional. As a very capable and intelligent Palestinian-American, she brings a lot of saneness to the Israel/Palestine conflict. I recommend people listen to other interviews she does on YT. Former US Ambassador Daniel Kurster is part of Amaley's team at Princeton. He has been involved in peace negotiation talks between Israel and Palestine; IMO he brings a lot of great qualities to this topic and has written a book on these negotiations. They bring more context and details to the discussion which is very helpful for students and the general public to get a better understanding of the history and current situation. Amaley puts a more human face on Palestinians. Anyone with a heart should be crying out for both the Israelis and Palestinians.
16:00
there was in 2013-14 talk under bibi govermant that end cause Fatah(PLO's Ten Point Program , Johannesburg speech) joind with hamas in Unity Government
I wish those who rally against Jews on American campuses bothered to listen to Professor Jamal and those who call for Israel's continued annexation of Palestinian lands listen to Ezra Klein.
this victim mentality of Palestinians is embarrassing! There is no other group in the entire world receiving only a fraction of the help, money and support what Palestinians get. And the nonsense of occupation when Israel left Gaza almost 20 years ago.
It is interesting that corruption in the middle east is similar to corruption in many African countries. The pivotol factor that these areas have in common is it is not understood that corruption destroys the organization that provides the opportunity for corruption in the first place. It all boils down to an understanding of organizational behavior. Not much gets done by individuals Only groups of people get much done.
I disagree--groups of people get mired in bureauracracy, at least in the West.
Tribalism.
Thank you for having courage on this topic Ezra
Here I fixed your title "PROFESSOR Polled Gazans on Oct. 6. Here’s What She Found."
So in conclusion questions and no solutions, intractability is intractable.
Why aren't the Gazan people also angry at Hamas for bring this all down on the people of Gaza? They have no regard for the people of Gaza keep them in object poverty even after BILLIONS given in aide and they still support this terrorist organisation....Thing is why should it be up to a country to supply aide and help to a people that want them dead
where has all that money in aid gone? to enrich the 'leaders' and leave the people in Gaza impoverished. Check it out, folks.
Why don't you do a show studying the roots of Hamas, starting with the "Grand Mufti" and the 1921 riots against Jews?
"There were political forces that did not want peace". Now ask yourself, regarding the political forces arrayed on both sides, which side had more access to money, the USA, a military and international political influence?
The occupation is wildly asymmetric. It's getting old to hear that glaring fact continuously white washed and equivocated.
You act as if the arab world doesnt exist and have wanted to throw the jews into the sea. Ask Nasser for help
Occupation of what? It’s own borders? The West Bank settler activity is an admitted issue. But Golan Heights occupation is security related due to rockets raining down from it into Israel. As for Gaza, Egypt follows the same policies for security reasons. Except that Israel provides free water & telecomm. Egypt provides nothing. You suggest Israel should have provided freer reign to Hamas?
She should make survey on religion influance on everything. Than you will learn the truth!
Agree 💯
The Palestine have had problems with other Arab countries. None of there neighbors want them. What does that tell you? One might need to research and find the issues. If fact one of these countries kicked out over 300000 Palestines, Egypt. They are not getting along with the West either. Actions are stronger than words. Just sit back and wait and answers are clearly shown.
I am extremely sick of Palestinians trying to "both sides" this.
After October 7th, there is no second side.
Not really considering how much Bibi blew it and has for last 30 years
Before you speak. Have you ever been harassed, beaten, spat at, starved? If not then you have no clue what Palestinians have been going. You should visit Gaza and then you will speak from knowledge.
@@rommyaznaran9508 If Palestinians are acting like this because of how Israel treated them, then why were their leaders like Amin al-Husseini working directly with Adolf Hitler and the Nazis 12 years before the Nakba even happened?
If this is just a response to the cruelty of Israel and the indignity visited by its founding, why were Palestine's Founding Fathers working directly for the Nazis 12 years before Israel even existed?
The falsehoods that were spread by the pollster we're not challenged by the commentator. That is disappointing. For instance the PA & President Carter had a deal on the table that gave at least 93% concessions to the PA.
This was a very interesting interview. Your guest sounds like a nice person who is thoughtful. Nevertheless. She minimized and change the narrative for her convenience. She made statements like everyone can agree, or everyone can see, not everyone agrees with that at all, and it is not factual. she made it sound like these really did not offer many piece deals. She made it sound like absolutely all Palestinian citizens want peace. Or at least are peaceful in the right conditions. While everything that’s been going on all these years, it’s really have been butchered nonstop by terrorists. There’s a lot of stuff she left out of it. Everyone knows the Israelis just want to live in peace. If the people in the West Bank really wanted peace, it wouldn’t matter if there was one more town of Israelis or not. There was a blockade because of terrorism not for fun. The Israelis do not indiscriminately fire on citizens, and they have lost many soldiers due to them, being careful, and risking themselves rather than risk civilians. Nevertheless, when people make war with you you need to respond. There’s a lot of cop outs here. They are not acceptable. It’s the Palestinians put down their arms and said they wanted peace that would be peace.
You’re saying.. if Palestinians wanted peace, the settlements wouldn’t matter? My god.
WHAT? "The Israelis do not indiscriminately fire on citizens"?! Your LEADERS have said cause maximum destruction!!!
@@miatomiyes, that's the way peace goes. Many millions lost land in the Balkans through different generations and wars. Now there are countries that are secular democratic societies there. The difference is, terrorist groups weren't welcomed, and people were willing to give up some dirt for peace.
@@waitaminute2015 my comment to you was censored, although it was a call for peace. I'm leaving this here as a record of that fact.
8:57 there is no "Israeli occupation", they are a legitimate country & many have had relatives living there prior to 1947/48. There hasnt been a time in history that some Jewish ppl havnt lived there for thousands of years now. When the mandate was set by the Bristish all of what is Israel today, the "Palestinian" territory along with what is Jordan was all to go to the country of Israel. Israel handed over Jordan to Arabs who wanted to stay in the area, then handed over more land to the ppl that consider themselves to be Palestinians. They've lost large amounts of that land with continued attacks & continuing to deny the reality that Israel is again a legit country & the only democratic country with personal freedoms in the area. There could have long been an actual Palestine as a legit country also but every group that rises chooses to attack its would be neighboring country & loses more land & ends up in a worse situation with worse leadership with every genicidal group that comes along. A large majority of Iranians right now completely oppose their fascist theocracy right now too which is why Iranian leadership is in a panic. They're losing their ideology based grip on the public, you cant imprison or execute at least a half a million people or more for apostacy & thats around what they're looking at. After a good 1400yrs of being spread by force & kept alive by the threat of violence Iranians are past ready for it to be gone. The government only has around 20-30% support & thats not enough to keep it around for much longer therefore Irans backing these terrorist organizations with the same genocidal 7th century ideology
When the British took control after WWI, they made the mistake of putting Arab clan leaders in charge of the local arabs. These clan leaders are the origins of Hamas, Fatah, etc. They oppressed the local Arabs and also abused their religious position, claiming to be direct descendents of Mohammed, leading to an increasingly radicalized form of Islam. The British governed the Jews separately. Violence originated when the Jewish economy overtook the Arab economy around 1925, and Jews were paying higer wages for Arab fellahin labourers than these Arab clan land barons wanted to pay for farm labor. These clan leaders saw their power being eroded so they massacred all the Jews in Hebron 1929. Things deteriorated and led inevitably to the 1948 war.
Until "each side" acknowleges that it has harmed the other, progress on peace will be impaired.
The point made that it is critical for people to evaluate how much their "leaders" or envoys are really open to working towards peace is so important.
The Palestinians have started almost every war in that region even attacking Jordan and Lebanon. Who can forget the terror attacks in Munich or the various plane hijackings. There is a discernible bad actor and it is not Israel.
Imagine a sports rivals like the Red Sox and The Yankees would any fan base be willing to discuss their differences. Then remember there other teams in their division and the American League all vying for a playoff spot.
Then imagine a person front the Middle East saying that there will not be progress if they the 2 teams aren’t willing to “acknowledge each side”
it’s insulting, to think this of people that it’s the “leaders” if any country or teams leaders agreed to such things they would be axed.
It’s insulting for an America that’s been around for 225 years to impose their culture on societies that have been acting in such ways for thousands of years.
Do you live in America? This is the Middle East not Wisconsin with nice people. There are 22 Arab countries not one is a democracy. Tribal and religious affiliations are very important.
Very informative thank you
“Amaney Jamal, the dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs”
Formerly the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, but, y’know . . .
Ezra, this is a fantastic elite level interview. It really bypasses the nonsense we see on other platforms. very thoughtful, thorough and most importantly solutions-oriented.
“Elite level” = white supremacist = antisemitic
Exactly what you would expect from the New York Times. “Courage” on the level of Nevil Chamberlain
It’s so hard to get away from the Middle East chaos.
17:54 - I’ve been waiting for someone to say what must be obvious to Palestinians and for “mystifying” reasons related to the consequences of western cognitive dissonance on settler / colonial history doesn’t seem to know; take it or leave it seems natural because “we” hold all the cards.
Robert Malleys’s NYBooks essay from the Camp David era confirms that Barak’s overarching approach was to attempt to solve Oslo by skipping *any* confidence building steps the Oslo accords required. Arafat could never accept an *un-written” take it or leave offer unacceptable to the Palestinian diaspora just as Barak found unacceptable confidence building steps that he knew would knock him from power prematurely if he agreed to them. An offer with right of return off the table and settlement building growing continually was no offer at all, written or unwritten.
Clinton, the US president at the time, basically accepted Israeli take or leave it terms by betraying Arafat’s understandable request before agreeing to meet with Barak at camp David that he wouldn’t be blamed for a process, as Arafat realistically suspected, would end in failure given the absence of confidence building steps.
The Israeli power position doesn’t acknowledge open good faith and US policy for generations after James Baker designed Oslo doesn’t ratifies it.
How is it cognitive dissonance? Israel does have the leverage and therefore can say "take it or leave it". Its Palestinians refusal to accept Israel existence and that Israel will never allow for a "right of return" that is cognitive dissonance. Israel hasn't always acted in good faith but the Palestinian leadership (of all stripes) have never acted in good faith and can't seem to except that beggars can't be choosers. As long as the Palestinians say "its all or nothing", they're gonna continue to get nothing.
source: trust me bro
To say Israel did not start this war is to ignore everything that happened before October
7th...The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian
Affairs (OCHA) reported roughly 6,400 Palestinians and 300 Israelis were killed in the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict, from 2008 through September 2023, before the start of this war.
If the UN really wanted peace in the middle east why dont they give gazans refugee status?
Thanks for shedding light on Gazan public opinion and attitudes.
People should live in peace on the WB.
Listening to this interview suggests that US financial and military assistance to Israel should be hard-linked to progress towards a Two-State Solution.
Either the US Government and it's allies in Western Europe believes in the Two-State Solution, or it does not.
The current disaster in Gaza makes it clearer that the time has come for Israel's allies in the US and in the remainder of the world, to pursue other policy options.
I say this as an original signator of the Black Americans in Support of Israel (BASIC), founded by Bayard Rustin in the wake of the 1974 UN Resolution equating Zionism with Racism.
Either Israel accepts the terms of the 1948 UN Resolution recognizing ISRAEL as a member of the family of Nations, or it risks the support of its democratic allies.
Hood reporters need to leave the NYT. None of us respect it any longer
Soooo complicated if the Palestinians themselves dont even know what to make of their own government!!!
New York Times NEEDS TO PASS YOU A BONUS!
If Jews had been in Palestinian shoes they would have organized, started a political, banking and legal system, created a movie industry and a two state system. They wouldn't just sit around and throw rocks.
This is an absurd interview. You are applying expectations of rights in a 2023 west to a society that hasn't earned them. West also had rulers that gave no freedom of speech or peaceful protest. Each group in the west had to fight and spill blood to earn these rights. Americans fought a civil war for the freedom of the slaves. Bangladeshis fought a war for independence from Pakistan. Palestinians are not rising up against Hamas because better government is not an important enough cause.
Ben Gurion in 1937 said “what we want is that the whole unified land be Jewish. I’m sure the hardliners every night at bedtime say that.
Amaney Jamal, a lot of the world is learning that using concepts like Occupation and Genocide are ways anti Israel people promote their propaganda and falsehoods instead of encouraging open and honest discourse about the facts. The fact that you are a scholar and pretend don't know what these words really mean and that you resort to name calling makes your position of seeing Palestinian causes as complex less tenable. Be honest. We know these terms are false, so maybe you should do what you are asking your audience to do and use words that describe the complexities of the Israeli situation.
Amen. I’m sick of the rhetoric. I hear genocide, apartheid, or occupation I’m done. It usually comes in the midst of how it has ALWAYS been someone else’s fault. For 70+ years. I’m beginning to think the latter part is baked into Islamic chauvinism. It’s the inflexible notion of superiority.
Wondering how meaningful can be polling a population in a country ruled by a para-military regime like Hamas.
Wondering if Marwan Barghouti would be a Nelson Mandala (also in prison for decades) for Palestine.