The Problem of Gil-galad's Parentage | The Red Book | Episode 10
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- The Red Book Podcast ran for 12 episodes. This is the tenth episode. J.R.R. Tolkien's legacy is his Legendarium; decades worth of material we can read across books published during his life and after his death. The scope of the Legendarium is enormous but it is not perfect and complete. Inconsistencies exist, as do revisions and multiple versions of history. The High King Gil-galad is one victim of these changes Tolkien made over the years. Who is his father? A simple question can provide multiple answers. This episode is my exploration and explanation of the issues surrounding his parentage.
► Chapters:
00:00 - The Red Book Podcast Introduction
00:55 - The Problem of Gil-galad's Parentage
02:12 - The History of Gil-galad
04:19 - Tolkien's Final Word
07:00 - A Descendant of Fëanor
07:54 - Inglor, Finrod, Felagund?
09:25 - Felagund's Changing History
11:18 - Interlude
11:50 - The Son of Fingon & The Edited Silmarillion
13:14 - The Kingship of the Noldor
14:33 - Canon and a Complete Narrative
16:44 - A Summary
17:46 - Artist Credits & Future Topic
18:24 - The Red Book Podcast Outro
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Episode 10 was originally about my thoughts on the "canon" of Middle-earth. I ended up writing a large section about Gil-galad and decided to just dedicate the entire episode to his parentage. My thoughts on canon will still be a future episode but I hope you enjoyed this one!
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Loved this video. Every other video I have seen on this topic just showed and/or explained the problem through the use of family trees. I think everyone comes to the same conclusion, but I had a slightly sour taste in my mouth about accepting Gil-galad as the son Orodreth. After this video, I am sure he is and now I accept that as being the "lore," not canon.😅
I think it is important to view Tolkien's works as mythology. Mythologies often have multiple versions of events. Some versions are more mainstream than others but they all exist. It's ok for there to be facts and events that are not hard set into stone whether that is by intent or mistake on the authors part. With such a deep legendarium as Tolkien has I think a few hiccups make the mythology feel more real.
Right! Was Apollo or Helios god of the sun?
The answer is yes and that’s only the beginning… where and when were they considered so?
Different regions, different times, different historians/record keepers and their biases all informed these concepts we’ve inherited. Cults replaced or absorbed other cults and evolved. As today, no one always agreed with each other and unlike today, there was not widespread literacy or modern communication.
Tolkien’s standard literary works are attempts by the author to synthesize and make more conventionally cohesive “eons” of storytelling.
Indeed. I think thats a mistake a lot of modern audiences fall into, because of Marvel and other crap.
Another great discussion on Gil-Galad's lineage. I remember Tolkien Untangled did a ~53 min video a few months ago on the different versions of Gil-Galad's parentage and how the different versions might and might not fit into the narative, but its up every person to decide with what version people might go with. I personally would agree with Christopher's view that it should have been left ambiguous to prevent some of the problems each version might have on the narative.
You make a most important point in the last couple of minutes of this podcast: The sum total of of JRR Tolkien's writings span his whole adult life - some 60 years worth of material. He changed his mind many times and wrote more than one version of certain events in many cases. Other characters, Tom Bombadil most famously, he deliberately wrote no origin story of, wanting them to remain as mysterious as possible. It is important to remember that The Legendarium is a work of fiction. None of these people or the events in the stories ever actually happened, so while it might be nice to think that everything in the stories could be consistant, if only JRR Tolkien was still alive and still able to sort out and fill in the blanks and uncertainties, we are lucky to have his incredible universe to read about, at all. In my opionion, all of the writing in the legendarium is "canonical", if JRR wote it, or if Christopher wrote it and it doesn't contradict his father's material.
The debate about canon in Tolkien's works is something that I really enjoy. Such debate reminds me of historians debating on what really happend during the times of ancient civilizations.
It makes it more mythological to me but I'd never talk about the canon of Greek Myth. It ruins it a bit!
Something I wrote a couple decades ago:
This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters.
It seems that Orodreth is the son of Finarfin (who was earlier named Finrod), third son (and fifth child) of Finwe, up through 1958. He appears as such in the 'Annals of Aman' (HoME 10), the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)' (HoME 10 and 11), and the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11). These were initially written in ca. 1950-1952. Corrections and emendations were made to these manuscripts and amanuensis typescripts, including these changes, were made in 1958. Finarfin in these typescripts is still called Finrod and his son Finrod Felagund is named Inglor. Later JRRT begins to emend these typescripts with changes including the names of Finrod and Inglor to Finarfin and Finrod and indications of the removal of Orodreth from among Finarfin's children. Finarfin is named Arafinwe in the earlier versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' which are dated to 1958 or earlier. The first unaltered appearance of the name: Finarfin (or Finarphin) is in the later versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' and the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)' dated to 1959 (or later); while Finrod (for previously Inglor) is in the 'Athrabeth' also dated to 1959 (or later). In the 'Elessar' essay (UT) Galadriel refers to herself as the last of Finrod's children, and names Angrod, Aegnor and Felagund as the others but fails to mention Orodreth, who CT notes was removed and placed a generation down.
Gil-galad first appears as a Feanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937. In the original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell, HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a descendant of Feanor (which ties in with the original FNII). On an 'isolated' sheet associated with (III) version Gil-galad is said to be son of 'Fin...' where the writing is illegible (CT notes that the fourth letter is _possibly_ an 'r' but the name is definitely not Finrod), this is struck out and 'Inglor?' is written in, this possibly dates to 1939 or early 1940 (HoME VII). Though marked with a query this agrees with the (III) version which has Gil-galad as son of Felagund seemingly through its association with the new ending to the Fall of Numenor II which was revised at the time of the writing of the third version of the Council of Elrond. In an early alteration to the Quenta Silmarillion text of HoME V, Felagund is mentioned as having a wife (Meril) and their son is Gil-galad. In the T3 version of the Tale of Years (of the Second Age) Gil-galad is the son of Felagund and this is also the case with 'Of the Rings of Power'. 'RoP' was extant (in versions) by 1948 (L. 115), while the 'T3' version is no later than August of '50 and was likely written in 1949 (PoME).
At this point it seems that we have Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (or rather Finrod) through 1958. Gil-galad is a Feanorian from ca. 1937 through ca. 1939. Gil-galad is the son of Finrod (or rather Inglor) Felagund from ca. 1940 until ca. 1949.
In the Grey Annals it is said that Felagund had no wife and this is consistent with Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta Silmarillion. That Felagund had no wife is maintained up until Dec. 1959.
In a 'pencilled note' on the amanuensis typescript of the Grey Annals Fingon is noted as the father of Gil-galad.
In a note (likely dated to Dec. 1959) to the genealogies (Finrod) Felagund is again given a son, Artanaro Rhodothir, otherwise known as Orodreth father of Finduilas. Later JRRT noted that Finrod had no child and had left his wife in Aman. At this point Orodreth is now made the son of Angrod (and renamed Artaresto) (PoME).
Now referring back to the 'Elessar' essay which must date from the time before 'Inglor' became 'Finrod' as Finrod (ie Finarfin) is Galadriel's father but after or about the time Orodreth is made her nephew. That would tend to date the Elessar essay to late 1959 or 1960 (which may indicate that the 'Athrabeth' should be dated into 1960 as it seems that name Finrod was not given to Inglor until after Orodreth had been removed as his brother).
In 'Aldarion and Erendis' Gil-galad is named 'Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin'. In UT CT dates this work to 1965, though in PoME he says this might be dated to 1960. JRRT notes this work as 'nearly complete' in September of 1965 (L. 276). It seems that this must be later than the 'Elessar' story (as Finarfin is used for Finrod). But it is not impossible that Finarfin maintained the name Finrod for a time as well before it was decided that Felagund should receive it. Gil-galad is also called Finellach the 'Description of the Island of Numenor'.
It is not noted what parentage Gil-galad had as 'Finellach', though CT notes this preceded by some time the making of Gil-galad into the son of Orodreth, which happened in August of 1965 when 'scribbled at great speed' a note, suggesting that Gil-galad (here named Rodnor/Artanaro) should be the son Orodreth (Artaresto), son of Angrod, was written.
In the Elessar essay Celebrimbor is noted as a jewel smith of Gondolin, though in a note JRRT wrote against that essay he says it would be better to make Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor (PoME). This happened with the Second Edition of RotK (1966). JRRT noted in one of his copies of this edition that Celebrimbor had grown to love Finrod and his (unnamed) wife while dwelling as a refugee in Nargothrond.
In the 1968 Shibboleth of Feanor, Orodreth is noted as 'Artaher' the son of Angarato (Angrod) and Eldalote. Gil-galad (Ereinion) is referred to with the Finarfinians and in a footnote is said to be the son of Artaher.
Orodreth is son of Finarfin until (it seems) 1959. Towards the end of 1959 he is made the son of Finrod Felagund. But this is then emended to the son of Angrod, since Finrod had no wife. However in an undated note on a 1966 copy of RotK Finrod is said to have a wife (in Nargothrond). In the Shibboleth there is no mention of his having a wife. Through the 1950's Gil-galad was no longer Finrod's son as Finrod had no wife, and he was noted as the son of Fingon on the 1958 typescript. Gil-galad returns to being a Finarfinian in the '60's (possibly as late as 1965 or as early as 1960). But who was his father considered to be in the Aldarion and Erendis essay, before he was made the son of Orodreth? We only have him being of the 'House of Finarfin'. When was the note made on the Second Edition of RotK that suggests Finrod did have a wife in exile? What was Gil-galad's lineage when he was descended from Feanor?
17:20ish - "I put no stock in what is apparently 'canon' or 'true' when we have so many versions or 'traditions' as I like to call them. Is the Legendarium a mythology - a complex collection of various writings and histories from decades of creative input?" - I am going to save this verbatim and use it every time someone invokes 'canon' with respect to Tolkien's legendarium; it is just perfect.
I'll wheel it out again when I do the actual canon episode. I have a feeling that episode will just be me ranting for 25 minutes or something...
I think Gil-Galad as a character, should have remained of unknown parentage and mostly a 2nd Age character, he comes in at the lowest point of the Noldar in the First Age, and builds them up in the early 2nd age and mitigates their and all Elven decline until the end of the 2nd age while giving the next major ruler, the Lord of Rivendale, the time, training and familiarity with the tools to see the Elfs into and through the 3rd age. He's, like his Elendril, a uniquely 2nd Age character and trying to connect him to the... well mine field that this the family of Fimwe has done him a massive disservice. As for the story, as the Silmarillion is presented to the most cohesive version we have I'd say Christopher made the best of all bad decisions to make Gil-Galad the son of Fingon. But this is a mythology, and if any study of myth can teach us, there are always more than 2 versions
While I understand your perspective, you seem to overlook the importance of lineage in this matter. Gil Galad being the High King of the Noldor means he had to have inherited it from a previous king and family line, which makes his lineage actually very important. It can’t just be left unstated or to have him not connected at all with the mess of a family from the first age, because then he wouldn’t be a valid or rightful High King.
Really appreciate the reminder of the nature of mythology. It makes it more fun to dive back into the legendarium. Great episode, as always!
Loved this Steven, the debate and the doubt helps to make the legendarium seem genuinely collected and written from many sources. These sources appear as often spoken not written, appear genuinely very old, these things lead to confusion and inconsistency. That confusion and inconsistency is one of the most brilliant parts of the work. I agree with you Steven, though not worthy of disdain the canon is one possible cross section from a vast mountain of ideas. I do not mean that we can make up our own, but we surely can, nay must choose to believe the version we choose to believe. Thank you as ever for your thoughtful ideas.
Thank you so much for making my Sunday morning so much fun 👍🍁
Very welcome, hope you enjoyed :)
Thank you for not overlooking the contribution of Guy Gavriel Kay, who is one of my favorite fantasy authors in his own right. 👍
It's a shame that he seems to slip under the radar when it comes to The Silmarillion. It may have ended up being closer to what we get in HoMe volumes than a full book in its own right if CT did all of it on his own - maybe!
Its funny, but I feel like the confusion regarding Gil-Galad's parentage actually works within the frame narrative. After all, given all that was going on from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears to the War of Wrath, loremasters could be forgiven for mistaking his lineage. That said, Orodreth does make more sense from a strict geneological standpoint....but even if Fingon were his father, Gil Galad's very young age at the time of Fingon's death would probably have seen the High Kingship passing to Turgon, albeit temporarily, until Gil Galad came of age....a moot point given the Fall of Gondolin & death of Turgon.
I fancy this concept
Playing Lotro and running throughout Western Gondor whilst listening to this is amazing
A good example of excluded material in the published Silmarillion that i personally enjoy is the characters of Makar and Meássä. The Valar who apparently supported Melko (Melko) in his discord, but pursued Melko after the darkening of Valinor. Interesting characters who's province is conflict and war which isn't really an archetype we see in the later writings.
great stuff!
Love these conversations ❤
I agree with you about Gil-Galad; and this conception does appear to have been the definitive version since another piece of writing corroborating it found its way into the 'Nature of Middle-Earth', edited by Carl Hostetter. In Part II, Chapt. IV - Hair - Tolkien writes "...As in the name *Gil-Galad* 'star of radiance' given to Finwain, last High-king of the Eldar, because of the radiance of his silver hair..." Which indicates the Sindarin influence of his lineage.
Another pertinent question is who was Gil-Galad's designated heir, since he apparently didn't marry himself (which itself is strange since M-E was at peace for the first part of the 2nd Age)? Personally, I always thought it was Elrond - as he was made Gil-Galad's Herald - which is a role traditionally reserved for a kinsman. There is also the fact that Elrond was the last living male descendant of Finwë left in Middle-Earth after the fall of Gil-Galad (through his father Earendil, son of Idril, daughter of Turgon). I asked the same question to GirlNextGondor and her take on it was that at this stage, there weren't enough Eldar left in M-E to maintain a kingdom, thus, if it was considered and offered, Elrond most likely declined. What do you think?
I also side with the Orodreth version and since 'Nature of Middle-Earth', the silver hair underline that even stronger.
Now about Gil-Galad not being married I do not find that strange. Maedhros, Amrod, Amras, Fingon, Finrod, Celebrimbor and maybe Celegorm (not positively stated) didnt marry. A pretty high procentage.
@@skjold224 In The Nature of Middle-Earth there is text that essentially says Elves seldom had children during times of strife so that they might not even marry does not seem surprising. The centuries of the War of the Jewels were filled with war and strife so that explains much. I'd think Gil-Galad must have had another reason but, at least as far as I know, Tolkien never wrote about it.
@@istari0 I agree about that they seldom had children duing strife (or while travelling as they often stopped on the road from Cuivienen), but since Curufin, Maglor, Caranthir had wives (Curufins wife cannot count as she was left in Aman) then I cant see a clear rule here. Also Orodreth and Aranwë married a Sinda in Beleriand. Personally I see it as "most" didnt want to bring children into "such a world", but many did.
" "...As in the name Gil-Galad 'star of radiance' given to Finwain, last High-king of the Eldar, because of the radiance of his silver hair..." Which indicates the Sindarin influence of his lineage."
Not necessarily the Sindarin (as the Sindar were generally dark-haired) influence. It could come from Amanyarin Teleri (whence the silver in Galadriel's hair "she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver" (Letter 348), "for its gold was touched by some memory of the star-like silver of her mother" (Shibboleth).
Note also that in LQS "Miriel was the name of his mother. Silver was her hair and dark were her eyes...", (though in Hair, her hair is said to be dark).
(The note in the 'Hair' chapter of Nature does not actually seem to be part of the 1959 writings that form the base of that chapter, rather it is from a decade later "This is a convenient place to give a late (1969) typescript note found elsewhere amongst Tolkien’s linguistic papers:").
@@Tar-Elenion Could be Eärwen true, or a combinenation of that and Orodreths wife - a ressesive gene running in the Teleri branch. Cirdan and Elu Thingol had silver hair and later Celeborn (and Olwë white), so the older Teleri (Elwë, Olwë, Nówë) had it, but with later generations it was not common though it seemed more common in the Falmari.
Well thats my current theory - a ressesive gene :)
ps. That same gene-theory can be applied to Mathan where Maedhros, Amrod and Amras had red hair (or copper). Actually this, where carrying traits, runs through all of Tolkiens works.
Great podcast.
Gil-galad was an Elven KIng... good video :)
Surely many of the problems of how Gil-galad becomes High King disappear if one leaves behind the idea of Primogeniture and goes back to older forms of Kingly inheritance.
In Charlemagne's case, the kingdom was divided.
In modern day Saudi Arabia, the heir is the oldest living descendant of Ibn Saud, the founder of Saudi Arabia.
In Irish Celtic tradition, the Chieftain, King or High King was elected from among the siblings, sons, grandsons and cousins of the previous King.
As near as I remember, by the time Gil-galad becomes High King, he is the only survivor of the sons, grandsons or great grandsons of Finwe in Middle Earth, with the possible exception of the sons of Feanor, who have given up their claim to be High King.
Yes. Going with what Maedhros said, the Kingship goes to the eldest of the house:
"‘If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë, and not the least wise.’"
Or rather eldest _eligible_ (the Feanoreans were no longer eligible, having lost their rights, and women were not eligible).
@@Tar-Elenion Oh, that would certainly set a precedent indeed.
Every time this video pops up, I read sir Galahad
Cheers Steven
I think there are certainly areas where multiple versions exist and even after analysis it's not really possible to come up with one version that is clearly better than all the others, such as the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn (or is it Teleporno?). In this particular case, I really do think his being the son of Orodreth fits better with what else Tolkien wrote even though for some reason I like the idea of his being the son of Fingon.
Videos that dive into these areas where there are conflicts among various versions of what Tolkien wrote are fascinating. I enjoy trying to figure them out and seeing if I think there is one that makes the most sense or if there isn't. At least for me, sometimes it involves picking pieces from different versions and seeing if I can fit them into a cohesive whole.
bringing Gil-Galad down a generation makes him the same generation level as Elrond - which I do like: Finwe(1) - Finarfin(2) - Angrod(3) - Orodreth(4) - Gil-Galad(5) and Elwe/Thingol(1) Beren(2) Dior(3) Earendil(4) Elrond(5) - that makes them peers, otherwise Gil-Galad would be a generation above Elrond and that would destroy their dynamic imho - of course one could count Elrond form Finwe too: Finwe(1) - Fingolfin(2) - Turgon(3) - Tuor(4) - Earendil(5) - Elrond(6) but somewhere it was written that Elrond chose to count his descent from Thingol. Gil-Galad as son of Fingon(3) would be generation (4) and so even more Elrond's senior.
“Faerie is a perilous land, and in it are pitfalls for the unwary and dungeons for the overbold...The realm of fairy-story is wide and deep and high and filled with many things: all manner of beasts and birds are found there; shoreless seas and stars uncounted; beauty that is an enchantment, and an ever-present peril; both joy and sorrow as sharp as swords. In that realm a man may, perhaps, count himself fortunate to have wandered, but its very richness and strangeness tie the tongue of a traveller who would report them. And while he is there it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gates should be shut and the keys be lost.”
― Tolkien J R R, On Fairy-Stories
Hi Red Book, I've been listening to LOTR again and I've noticed that while the Fellowship is on the river after their stay in Lothlorien there are a couple lines saying basically that they pass a number of Swans. Aragorn specifically mentions that they are black swans, but the statement "and they are black swans" always seemed a little poignant to me. Is there anything in the legendarium giving black swans specifically any significance? I know abt the Swan ships of Alqualonde but I don't think they were ever described as dark.
LOL I'm sure this is a weird question and probably nothing, but the way it's highlighted in the dialogue just makes me curious if there's more to the statement than meets the eye.
Thanks!
Interesting question actually. There's no discussion within the Legendarium itself about Black Swans but they can definitely be viewed symbolically. Swans themselves symbolise royalty but Black Swans symbolise rarity and uniqueness. For a long time they were thought of as legend or myth, apt when we think of the figure of Aragorn and his destiny. Black is also the colour of Gondor's royalty. It starts to come together when you think of it like that. A rare and royal symbol associated with a rare and royal figure.
@@TheRedBook Ahh perfect! Thank you very much! You're right, that does blend together quite nicely. Appreciate the answer!
I always took it as that Aragorn thought they may have been spying for Sauron. Usually, black animals are associated to Sauron throughout the story. The day after, if I remember correctly, Legolas shoots a Nazgûl.
Steven, I have some objections regarding the claim that the line of royal Noldorin succession would be an argument against the practicability of Gil-Galad being Fingon's son. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no information in the legendarium stating that the Elves practised male primogeniture. They are supposed to live forever, meaning that Fëanor did not grow up with the prospects of ever inheriting a title.
I would suppose that the line of succession was free of any tradition but pragmatic in nature: the oldest and strongest male survivor would continue the reign. In our own history, it occured quite frequently that the (younger or older) brother of a king passed would become the next king, not the previous king's son. Male primogeniture is a narcisstic concept anyway, so I see the possibility that most Noldor simply did not care for the establishment of a royal dynasty when a royal house would suffice.
Basically, I think the royal succession is not indicative of Gil-Galad's place in the family tree in the first place.
It is true that the concepts of inheritance and legacy would not mean a lot to a race of immortal beings...
Can't wait for the "Canon" video!😁🙏
Hey Steven another great episode as always 😎🙌. I don’t know if you tackle this subject already or not but was wondering if you made a video about what tolkien meant when he refers to the “void” ? . Like when Morgoth was looking the flame imperishable he spent quite sometime in the void .. what kind of state is that .. and then at the end of the war of wrath he’s banished and cast out of the world and place back in the void
I haven't made that yet. It's come up a few times in comments on other videos. It's on my list for the Q & A series - explaining the void, timeless halls, arda, ea. It will be a video eventually :)
While it is a know inconsistency , I’ve not seen it debated much tbh. I’ve seen far more the “ wings of the balrog “ debated . “ How much maiagenes did Luthien inherit “ debated . Or “ when does the first age actually begins “.
I would say that the canon of Tolkiens Middle earth would be what he had finished when he died. LOTR and the Hobbit. Considering how much LOTR changed during its writing and how many things are contradicting themself beyond that I view that as the basis of what could have been if Tolkien had lived a hundred or a thousand years longer. Fun in it own way but nothing of substance.
Are you planning on streaming again soon?
Yes
Please don't take this as a slight of any kind but I do love the sheer esotericism of this topic.
Yes, it certainly is. I talk about it as some big controversy but I'm sure many watching may never have known there were any issues with Gil-galad's history at all. An interesting topic though, even if obscure :D
Gil Galad's personality (what little he has, heh) is far more similar to Orodreth's than to Fingon's, too. He's a careful leader like Orodreth, not a bold one like Fingon.
Trying to watch them in order lol
Tolkien making Gil-galad the son of Orodreth why did he change Orodreth from son of Finarfin (via Angrod) to his grandson? What exactly was the reason for this change? Could it be that Gil-galad's father was chosen as Fingon, because it was foreseen that this transition of the title of High King in Middle-earth (from the House of Fingolfin to the House of Finarfin) would cause internal strife in the Noldor society? Or does this have something to do with the concept of succession in the Noldor tradition?
Well, we know why the High Kingship was transferred from the House of Fëanor to the House of Fingolfin but what event would have triggered a transfer to the House of Finarfin?
@@istari0 It triggers the absence of heirs in the Fingolfin household. What is simpler than that?
@@TarMody Never mind, I misunderstood you the first time I read your post.
You? You're a member of the Gil-galad, son of Fingon discipleship? Well, **I** am a member of the Gil-galad, son of Orodreth discipleship, Reformed! You heretic!!!
Me? No. I say he's the Son of Orodreth.