Why Was Gil-galad the Last High King? (And Elrond Was Not) - Middle-earth Explained
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- čas přidán 18. 03. 2023
- Gil-galad was perhaps the most important Elf of the Second Age of Middle-earth, for he was the High King of the Noldor. However, he never married nor had an heir, so he was the last high king. Today, we shall explore why! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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There wasn’t much point being king of a small and diminishing remnant of the Noldor. Elrond had a different role - to preserve lore and serve as a resource for all the free peoples.
Elrond was not a Noldo, above all that.
@@likac92009 If Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth, he wasn’t close to being a full-blooded Noldo either. Orodreth was was 1/4 Noldor, 1/4 Vanyar, and 1/2 Teleri. We don’t know Gil-Galad’s mother - she could be Sindar for all we know.
Elrond’s racial mix is more complicated. His great-grandparents were Turgon (1/2 Noldor, 1/2 Vanyar), Elenwe (full Vanyar), Huor (human), Rian (human), Beren (human), Luthien (1/2 Maiar, 1/2 Sindar), Galathil (full Sindar), and an unnamed Sindarin great-grandmother (mother of Nimloth).
@@DavidWesley Elves didn't decide heritage with percentages, it was patriarchal.
Idril is more than 50% Vanya by blood, but she's a Noldo because her father is.
Technically Elrond is of the House of Hador, but it depends on how Tuor and Earendil saw themselves.
Elrond he was not a Noldo - you are a Noldo when your father is one - see e.g. Galadriel - while Turgon quasi adopted Tuor and as such Earendil could technically be an "adopted Noldo" - still Earendil's patronimic was "Halfelven" and not "House of Turgon"
@@Chociewitka Where is that rule that you are a noldo if your father is one?
High King Finwe - Slain by Melkor
High King Feanor - Slain by Gothmog and multiple Balrogs.
High King Maedhros - Hung on Thangorodrim until rescued, gave up kingship thereafter
High King Fingolfin - Slain in single combat by Morgoth
High King Fingon - Had an axe buried in his brain by Gothmog, slayer of two High Kings
High King Turgon - Slain by Balrogs during the downfall of his city
Lord Celebrimbor of Ost-in-Edhil - Captured by Sauron turned into a pin cushion and then a battle standard
High King Gil-Galad - Slain by Sauron in a duel on the slopes of Mt. Doom
Being High King of the Noldor always seems to end in battle with an evil Ainur.
Maybe Elrond and Galadriel thought that fighting Balrogs and Dark Lords directly was not their cup of tea. it does appear to be part of the job requirement. No Thanks.
Finwe was King of the Noldor, not High King. The High Kingship of the Noldor only developed in Beleriand among the Exiles when the various princes formed their own realms.
Neither Feanor nor Maedhros were King of the Noldor nor High King. Feanor claimed the Kingship but this was not accepted and the most part of the Noldor would not renounce Fingolfin's kingship (a disputed kingship), while later Maedhros waived his claim (not the kingship itself) saying it was rightfully Fingolfin's:
"For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ‘If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë...".
The Silmarillion
@@Tar-Elenion Fëanor was the eldest son of Finwë, hence the kingship was rightfully his according to the customs of the Noldor. He didn't need to claim anything. It was Fingolfin who was trying to grab what was not his.
@@likac92009 >"Fëanor was the eldest son of Finwë"<
Yes.
>"hence the kingship was rightfully his according to the customs of the Noldor"<
This is likely, had Feanor not impaired his rights by threatening Fingolfin at swords point, thus getting himself banished.
But he did do that, and was thus dispossessed. And Finwe abdicated (unkinged himself), leaving Fingolfin ruling as king.
>"He didn't need to claim anything."<
Yet he literally did claim the kingship. And the most part of the Noldor refused to renounce Fingolfin.
>" It was Fingolfin who was trying to grab what was not his."<
This is referred to as the "lies of Melkor" in the texts.
@@Tar-Elenion Finwë's abdication wasn't permanent, but as long as Fëanor was banned from Tirion, if I remember well. That's why Fingolfin was only doing king's duties but he was never crowned formally. Fëanor claimed the kingship from Finwë (who was killed by Melkor at that point).
@@likac92009 Feanor was still banned. He had not been unbanned.
Tolkien says Fingolfin was king and ruled both in the narrative:
"But the Gnomes of Tun would not renounce the kingship of Fingolfin"
SoMe, The Quenta
"Yet the Noldor of Tun would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin"
LRoW, Quenta Simarillion
(Tolkien also uses 'rule' for Fingolfin in those ms.)
In MR, AAm Tolkien also uses 'rule':
"But Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Túna...".
And outside the narrative:
"These names in ' Sindarized form' are Feanor, Ingolfin and Inglor (but this not actually applied to Arafinwe who never came to Beleriand). Ingolfin arose in this way. After banishment of Feanor (& Finwe) Ingoldo became king, and took name of Finwe; but was known as Vinya Finwe or Ingoldo Finwe. From Ingoldofinwe > Ingolfin. [If Fingolfin is used at all this must be for Finwe·nolofinwe. ]"
PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR
Tolkien never says Feanor was king. Just that he claimed the kingship, and this was not accepted by the most part of the Noldor.
Although not given the title, it seems to me that Galadriel was treated as a de facto high queen of all elves in middle earth, both by other elves and by some such as Gandalf
I think Elrond realized the position is basically cursed. Every High King dies a grisly death. Maedhros held the position only for a short time and still lost a hand.
He was, by upbringing, all that was left of the Feanorians. Perhaps because he wouldn't risk such curse onto him because of it too.
Maedhros was not High King. He yielded his claim to the Kingship, in favour of Fingolfin's claim (and Fingolfin had already been ruling as King, though Feanor disputed this after the death of Finwe).
Also, the High Kingship only developed in Beleriand when the Noldor separated into various kingdoms.
Smartest elf of all times, Elrond.
@@Tar-Elenion when Feanor died Maedhros was officially the high-king(even though whitin the hour he was captured and imprisoned) and only passed the position to Fingolfin after he his rescue a few decades later. He was a prisoner but still the official high-king, so he was the high-king in captivity for 33 years before yielding the tittle.
Their deaths weren't worses than what many non-royals elves experimented in battle, under the whips of orks in the mines or under the fire of dragons.
I never like to think too hard about these types of lotr questions. But I've always liked the thought that it was just a symptom of the dimishment of the elves in middle earth, something the remaining elves were very comfortable with.
I would also be very confortable with that if i had a place secure in paradise just one boat travel away.
@@efaristi9737 Men had that hope as well, except it was through death, not a boat ride. Although nobody could prove that the afterlife would be great.
@@richardthomas5362 For humans, no. But the Valars seems to think that Eru is benevolent (most of the time) so i guess it can't be bad.
He named Elrond vice regent and gave him Vilya. I would say the former part puts him as de facto heir. Even though Elrond never took it up, one could argue that the tradition was indeed changed.
Of course, giving Elrond the ring suggests he had a feeling he was not going to survive, but thought that Elrond would. Perhaps he did indeed have some sense of his own doom (much like Finrod), or another elf with the gift of foresight (Cirdan or Galadriel) foresaw his end. Perhaps then it had already been agreed by council that no one should take up the mantle after him for any number of reasons. My preferred would be that, whatever the outcome of the Last Alliance, they knew the time of the Noldor was over and that the eventide of the elves was upon them.
Also, by the end of the 2nd Age, there were almost no elves left who were born in Valinor, except for Galadriel... and re-embodied Glorfindel (non-royal). Some powerful Sindar and Half-elves, but maybe the culture couldn't use the term "High King" for someone who had never seen the light of the Two Trees.
Probably some unmentioned elves who serve house of Finwe.
Although not completely clear, Gil-galad was born in Beleriand in the First Age. No Trees for him; nonetheless, High King.
I agree with those saying there weren't enough Noldor left to merit a High King, or any king. If there had been, Elrond would probably have claimed the title. Great video, as always!
I always wondered why Thranduil was not a member of the White Council. He was an elven king afterall.
Probably because he was a douche no one liked.
The books tell us why
Good question. I'd like to see a video about that. I think the Silvan Elves are just more isolationist.
His policy was isolation after the battles of the Last Alliance where his father was killed.
The Sylvan elves who refused the journey to Valinor and never learned from the Valar did not contain those accounted "Wise". The Wise were Noldor who were exiled to Middle Earth or their descendants.
Excellent topic. Also here is a theory to ponder: What if Beleg lived?
Yes! While I like to think Turin’s story might have turned out better, it’s unlikely because he was already cursed by Morgoth so stuff would’ve went bad for him anyway. But if u mean what future events Beleg would’ve been involved in, I have no idea.
Gil-Galad was the last High king because the elves didn't appoint a replacement. The Noldar had diminished and the lose of the High king was the waining of their power. A mighty king with a famous spear Aeglos.
Excellent video, Gil Galad is one of my favorite elves.
Same. I literally made a npc inspired by him for my pathfinder game.
I'm pretty sure Elrond might have thought that being a High King would make this position come with a greater responsibility to lead the high elves, with that sort of authority.
excellent explained vid Yoystan and actully asked the question myself keep on rocking
It's clear to me that Elrond, having seen the fates of previous high kings, just said "aww hells naw."
Not everyone wants the responsibility, power and headaches that goes with being Number One.
Excellent video.
Maedhros to Fingolfin
"...still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë..."
In each circumstance the High Kingship passed, it passed to the eldest (eligible) male of the house. (The Feanoreans were no longer eligible having been dispossessed). This happens whether Gil-galad is of Finarfin's line or Fingolfin's. And in earlier variants where Fingon has other children.
Before Gil-galad was invented, it was Elrond who 'ruled in the west of the world'.
Well said. I like to believe that the time of the elves ended with the passing of their High King. Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel become conservators of their people in Middle Earth. With no King, Elves had the freedom to involve themselves in matters of their own choosing until the end of their days, or until their hearts were called home by the sea.
Thank you so much for your consistent content. Started getting into Tolkien a few years ago and your channel has been incredibly helpful. Looking forward to more content mellon 💚
1. Elrond didn't qualify for High King. 2. When the strength of men failed and the One Ring was not destroyed at the end of the Second Age, I think that took the wind out of Elrond's sails. If the ring were destroyed and war truly won, he may have ascended the throne to shepard the rule of Middle Earth from Elf to Man. I always felt Elrond had a sadness and resignation stemming from the Ring's continued existence and failure of Man.
The time of the Elves was ending in Middle Earth and the fact that there was no heir after Gil-Galad emphasized that point.
Hey! "Men of the west". Hopefully you see this. I've watched tons of your videos and they are great. Thanks for all the Content and stories.
One thing to keep in mind, there is still a High King of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death. Finarfin, Galadriel's father, remained in Valinor, and was High King of the Noldor in Valinor.
Maybe king. The High Kingship was an Exilic thing, with the separation into various Noldorin kingdoms.
@Brian Stuart Exactly, and since the elves were almost all returning to Valinor, I think that's the main reason they didn't designate someone else.
Fantastic video. Love your analysis here 🧝♂️
Nice work dude thanks
Your knowledge alone is impressive; your delivery and THE ART are always so fine!
I can't recall if it happens this way in the books, but your mention of Galadriel desiring to be Queen at some stage in the past makes a lot of sense with what she says during her test (when Frodo offers her the ring). The ring may have offered her the power to take a position she may have felt was hers by right, but denied to her by old traditions - with this reading it was by mastering her darkest desire for power in the face of old wounds or perceived injustices that she passed the test. Just an idea, would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on it!
I think you got it. For the elves, it was a matter of tradition and honoring one's memory. I also feel like Tolkien was vague about how the elves viewed power. It is different than humans. As for Gil-Galad not marrying and having an heir, I feel like there was no one for him to fall in love with, or wherever he was in love with, was in Valinor (Either by sailing west or was killed). And since elves can live forever, he decided to wait.
Great video!
Great segment. I always wanted to know this answer.
I think that there were a couple of reasons Gil-galad was never succeeded. By the end of the SA most Elvish dwellings were constituted by mingled folk (Noldor/Green Elves/Silvan/etc), and many of the other Elvish folk were wary of Noldor rule (ie, Nimrodel). But more importantly, I'd suggest that after the fall of Morgoth, the Kingship of the Noldor had become unimportant. The Kingship of the Noldor in ME was so intertwined with the fate of the Silmarils that once they were lost Gil-galad's reign as king was mostly symbolic. That's probably why he reigned for so long without a successor.
Nimrodel was worried by Sindarin rule.
Sindar always loved Noldorin rule. See Turgon, Fingon and Gil-Galad cases.
Upon the departure of the bearers of the Three Rings at the dawn of the Fourth Age, the line of the High-elven kings, including the High Kings of the Noldor, was alone preserved in the descendants of Elros and Elrond.
The Silmarillion explicitly states that females do not inherit the throne. In the story of the Origins of Maeglin it is stated that he was anxious to go to Gondolin in part because Turgon had no heir, despite having a daughter Idril. Its implied that Maeglin thought he might make a claim as son of Turgon's sister though so maybe it could be passed down the female line, but not TO a female.
Last High King of the Noldor (in Middle-Earth). Isn't the High King of ALL the elves still the Vanyar King Elf Ingwë? In Valinor?
It's possible that I'm wrong. But the last time I thought I was wrong, it turns out I was mistaken.
I reckon you're correct.
Agreed.
Happy Sunday 😊🎉
My personal theory was when asked if he wanted the crown he went no not just no but hell no being high king gets you killed and proceeds to list every high king and how they died usually horrifically then the last and elros found the loophole to that by choosing the path of mortality which is even scarier though
"Lord Elrond, you are by right the new high king of the-"
"No."
"But Lord Elrond, the crown-"
"Cast it into the fire."
"My Lord?"
"Destroy it!"
My personal head-canon keeps with the original Silmarillion publishment that Gil-galad was the son of Fingon. I always imagined, what with the lack of further details at the time, that Gil-galad was simply too young to inherit the kingship from his father during a time of war so it passed to Turgon.
By the end of the War of Wrath & the start of the Second Age a period of peace occurred which allowed a relatively older Gil-galad to inherit the throne with the wisdom of other great elves to help guide & support him such as Galadriel, Cirdan, & a young Elrond.
Maybe Gil-Galad had some wisdom or foresight into his role in middle earth, kind of like Finrod did. So instead of marrying and continuing the diminishing line of the high elven kings, he knew that his job was to just preserve and protect what was already there. This is also probably the same reasoning Elrond had in deciding not to take the throne. They both guarded the ages they lived in, and prepared the way for future ones.
I mean they can all logically be reborn and most elves were probably like "eh, thats enough of that." Lol
My belief is that not only the succession laws only allowed men in the male-line to succeed (and there was none left in middle-earth), but is also quite probably that most surviving Noldorin departed Middle-earth after the death of Gil-galad, thus emptying the pressure of needing a high-king. After all, they could have easily adopted another lesser king as many did with Galadriel and other elves.
It's strange thematically because it would have made a lot more sense if he'd had a wife and child who had perished during the first age and he was simply awaiting their return from the Halls of Mandos. That would explain both why he never (re-)married or had an Heir, whilst still be in-keeping with the character.
Tolkien probably died before he could work that out.
You hit on it for me, between Elrond and Galadriel, the Noldor of that age had stable homes, there wasn't as much need for a high king with two wise rulers who shared mutual respect. It has been my feeling for years that either of them could have claimed it if they wanted it, I don't think there would have been much resistance to EITHER if they were to reach out and take it, but neither saw any purpose or felt the need to put themselves among those ranks
Perhaps the effects of the Curse of Mandos lingers on the mantle of the High King of the Noldor. That may be why only High King Finarfin was able to avoid death despite fighting in the War of Wrath
I honestly just assumed that there was no direct heir, and as a result no new high monarch was chosen out of concern of sparking conflict between the remaining elven lands.
I think it boils down to Gil-Galad having never met anyone, and it being the one-thing that he failed in, in comparison to the previous Elvish Kings. It seems as though each of the Noldor High-Kings each had one major failing or flaw that contributed to their fall and that seemed to taint their legacy.
I think a lot of the answer comes down to "all of the above" more or less. I suspect Gil-Galad realized that he would die in battle, and with him most of the Noldor in Middle Earth. Thus also he eschewed wedding and having children. Perhaps a certain Elvish maiden went to Valinor to await it (we know the Eldar are by nature monogomous). I do imagine some would look askance at having a half-elven as King, also. Others might balk at Galadriel out of a sense of tradition, and also (maybe) her marriage if as seemed at least possible she married a Dark Elf.
Perhaps he had lost the desire for children as per "The Nature of Middle-Earth"? It is an intriguing question. Great video as always.
So, this might sound dumb, but I always had a bit of the idea that some elves who were important in Middle Earth chose to stay there because to return to Valinor would be to give up that importance, and become "just" who they were. Galadriel is like the queen of Lothlorien, but only in Lothlorien; that nation doesn't exist in Valinor, nor would there be other waiting thrones, longing to let these Middle Earth Lords continue their rules. I imagine in Valinor there still were a few elven nations, and these peaceful lands already had kings, who were immortal, and lived in peaceful circumstances, unexpected to due, or retire. I thought at least some might not seek to replace Gil-Galad as High King simply because they would only be doing so until their own eventual return to Aman, where they still wouldn't be kings, or as important, compared to even more aged, and esteemed, elven kings, and the Ainur above them. Anyone who would want to claim the mantle would seemingly have to be doing so proclaiming they'd never leave, and to be king over whomever else made the same decision, what few there would be, and did this little population constitute a nation? Need a High King? Respect for Gil-Galad is wonderful, and fair, but I think some others simply didn't because they knew with his passing, what would remain wouldn't constitute that nation, or that ruler, and that person could never return to Valinor, and still be that king. Elrondxs wife returned, and so I assume he always intended to follow, and others simply didn't feel they could stay the course, live up to Gil-Galad, and have a purpose as he did.
Good point. I never thought of that.
I still prefer to think Gil-galad is the son of Fingon, I'm not a fan of it the High-Kingship leaving the house of Fingolfin and also skipping Finarfin and Galadriel.
Finarfin was not in Middle-earth (the full title is High King of the Noldor in Exile).
Women don't seem to have been eligible for inheriting.
me too , it doesn't feel like that he is from house of Finarfin , he is more like Fingon and Fingolfin.
Yeah when did we decide Tolkien was wrong?!?! I don’t understand.
@@ashamael When he died before clearing up the fact that he has multiple sets of notes with contradicting information. Same with the Elfstones origins, same with if the Blue Wizards arrived in the 2nd Age or not, same with Argon actually existing or just dying before the 1st Age. Same with anything he could have changed his mind about before commiting 100% to a final draft.
So when did it come to pass that Chris Tolkien was wrong?! This is the first I’ve ever heard about Gilgalad not being Fingon’s son. It’s in the text as well as the appendix of the Silmarillion. What makes that not right?
(Not being argumentative - genuinely curious)
Tolkien had several different parentages for Gil-galad (initially Feanorean descent (father not named), then son of Finrod Felagund, then son of Fingon, then son of Orodreth). In The Silmarillion CT went with Fingon, as that was a note JRRT wrote on the Grey Annals, which CT was drawing from. Finrod Felagund would not work, as he needed to be childless, and CT thought going with the (late) changes to Orodreth would require to much of his own alteration.
CT later said he should have left Gil-galad's parentage unspecified in The Silmarillion.
Man, I wondered about this...I thought for Elrond maybe his mixed heritage *him being part Man and Maiar* has something to do with his and Galadriel, I honestly don't have a clue why!!!
Thanks for this video Mellon, it really makes me look up to see if there is any lore reason why!!! Until the Ultimate Battle, I have to wait a week *A WEEK* for the Answer: Durin's Bane VS Smaug: Who Would Win?!!! Marion Baggins Out!!!
Mixed heritage did not stop Dior.
@@Tar-Elenion But this is High King of all Elves, not king of one Place...But as I said with Galadriel, IDK!!!
@@marionbaggins Gil-galad was not High King of all Elves. He was High King of the Noldor. Thingol was King of the Sindar as well as Doriath.
Galadriel does not seem to have been 'eligible', women did not inherit the title.
In early works, before Tolkien invented Gil-galad, it was Elrond who 'ruled in the west of the world'.
Idk if someone else has already suggested this: there was still one male-line descendant of Finwe: Maglor. I don’t think there is an account of his death after casting the silmaril into the sea. Of course - not withstanding the renunciation of the throne by his brother. Here’s another along those lines: the high-kingship existed in Valinor and Middle Earth. What if a more senior Noldor was re-embodied there? Just some very speculative thoughts that can’t really be answered on what we know.
Interesting because Elrond literally has the best requirement in filling up Gil-Galad's position cosidering the fact that he and his twin brother Elros literally descended from the blood of all the Kings of Elves, Men, and a Maia Queen including the Finwe's blood who was the first High-King of Noldor Elves.
The main thing that plagues my mind is whether he comes from the house of Fingolfin or Finarfin.
House of Fingolfin. His paternal grandmother was Idril, who was Fingolfin's granddaughter.
His only relationship with Finarfin is that his great-great-grandfather was Elu Thingol, who was the uncle of Finarfin's wife.
@@lisboah But Idril and Tuor were a couple and birthed Eärendil….wouldn’t that make him brother to Gil Galad then? To Eärendil
Galadriel would have been a great high-queen, older, wiser, out ranking Gil-Galad, and Elrond by age and wisdom up the family tree. But I get why it didn't work, it could have though.
All of the Noldor high kings were killed in battle. Maybe Elrond just didn't want to test the jinx.
But they all died like badasses. Fingolfin died fighting Morgoth, Fingorn died fighting Gothmog, and Gil-galad died fighting Sauron.
The Númenorian succession system may have been derived from elven tradition, but it poses a problem for humans if humans are mortal, meaning the king dies or has no male heirs. For this reason, this system experienced its first change during the Tar-Aldarion period. But this is not a problem as elves are immortal. The idea of Galadriel or Elrond becoming High King of the Noldor is fine, but the established elven tradition is not conducive to that. It is natural that a king was not chosen upon Gil-galad's death. For the Noldor must return to the west. Had Gil-galad (the son of Fingon) not died, when he returned westward there might have been a royal internal strife with Finarfin, the High King of the Noldor in Aman.
I think its a mixture of acceptance of their own fall from power and also to make way for a High King of Men.
My opinion:
Elrond and Galadriel could became king or queen. But they became owners of two of three Celebrimbor's rings. Theese rings had power to keep something fair and beutiful of world long time lost. Some magic of old times in world that has changed during second and third age.
This devine aura helps elves of third age keep their will to stay in middle earth.
It makes their house/realm magical place where tired body, soul and mind can heal.
This is more than just title of king/queen.
But keeper of one of three elven rings has duty to hide it from Sauron.
Just like Istari had to hide their real power and origin.
King or queen cannot be unobtrusive and keep their head down. It would make Sauron clear where some rings of power can be and he could suspect some king or queen of finding the one ring maybe.
My opinion is that having one of three means to keep head down and stay hidden. But it brings much more for elves than having king or queen.
Yes, this option makes good sense to me. Having one of the Elven Rings was like it's own special calling.
@@thinkfirstt yes, it’s own special calling that they might’ve valued more at that time, and also a good reason to stay out of the spotlight that being royalty would bring in order to protect the rings!
Regarding Elrond - he was also a heir of Thingol, maybe he did not want to be traitor to either of his elvish tribes by choosing one over the other.
I like to think that Gil-Galad knew that despite his great strenght, it wouldn't be enought to defeat Sauron. A leader always have to weight between pros and cons, and choose Elrond was the best variable within the situation.
Were there any Noldor left in Lindon after the start of the Third Age?
I think there were still plenty of Noldor left in Middle-earth, though most probably lived in Rivendell rather than Lindon. Gildor and his company appear to travel back and forth across Eriador.
"You are the last of that bloodline; there is no other."
Always interesting the geo political systems of middle earth.
Given that he was an elf he must have had some insight into what the future held for himself and his people. Sometimes history calls to u for the future.
But interesting parallels between him and Elizabeth I of England. She never married, had no children, no direct heir and ended up being the last of her line. But she ruled effectively and brought about a golden age.
Perhaps he saw that the line of elven kings needed to end in order to make way for things to come in the future. If that's the case then he sacrificed much to make it happen.
No, a bunch of elves did not have children because they had thousands of years to do so. Example Maedhros and Fingon.
They would eventually fade so no need to have heirs anymore, he would be the Last King.
Don't you mean High King of the Nordorin Exiles? Finarfin was High King of the Noldor who turned back and he never died. I think by the third age, most of the Noldor had either returned to Valinor (after the War of Wrath) or been killed in the wars against Sauron, and certainly they were a far cry from the size of the host that braved the Helcaraxe.
A few comments also mentioned something similar already, but I´ll give ruling out Elrond a try: He was technically speaking not an High Elve, because he never saw the Light of Valinor. I thought the title "High King of the Noldor" implied also, that you must be a noldorian High Elve and not a Sindar. 2. He was an heir to High King Turgon only by means of his grandmother Idril, meaning here the direct male lineage was broken (although he is part of his bloodline). So for me it seems (if being a royal) he was closer to Thingol and the Sindar than to the Noldor. Because the Sindar allowed heirs through Luthien (thus female lineage). 3. The Noldor weren´t even a big thing anymore in the third age. There were no mighty Noldor Kingdoms like in the first age when a high king makes sense to give direction to all of them.
After writing and reading this, I am shook by how much I act, as if this was real history. Hahah :D
1:52 Why oh why is this, oh how can this be? There is a certain part of Tolkien fandom to whom the explanation for this 'strangeness' has always been a given. Tons of sad stories!
Elves simply didn’t feel the same pressures that mortals did, to find love, marry and start families. For example: Elrond didn’t visit Durin for 20 years and to him it wasn’t that long at all 😂. For mortals, if your not married with a family by 25-30 then something’s “wrong” with you…but for elves they had all the time in the world. A 500-1000 year old elf was considered very young just to put things into perspective. Had the shadow never returned I believe The high king would’ve produced an heir or at least assigned one.
I wonder if the example of Men - especially those of Gondor and Arnor, who both had succession crises, made the Elves decide the possibility of a dispute over the succession was a risk they wanted to avoid.
That’s a good point! No one else in these comments seems to have thought of that for some reason, but it’s very reasonable
My theory is that Elrond wasn't pure enough. His paternal grandparents were Tuor, a Man, and Idril, a Noldor. His maternal grandparents were Dior, the child of a Man and a half-Sindar and half-Maiar woman, and Nimloth, a Sindar. He is closer to Men and to the Sindar than to the Noldor in terms of blood.
This is just my theory though.
ITs hard to crown somebody like him when Galadriel is still around... She is a daughter of Finarfin and i think she is also the last treeborn noldor around.
@@nox5555 True.
The House of Feanor is gone. Celebrimbor was the only one left, but there was no way the Noldor would accept him.
The House of Fingolfin is gone, as well. Fingon died in battle, Turgon died during Gondolin's fall and Aredhel was killed by Eol.
In the House of Finarfin, only Galadriel is left. Finarfin is in Valinor, Finrod died protecting Beren, and both Angrod and Aegnor died after the Fourth Battle.
@@nox5555 Women don't seem to be eligible to inherit the high-kingship.
Gil-galad was half Sindarin and (and mixed Noldo, Amanyarin Teler, and Vanya)
@@lisboah The Feanoreans were dispossessed and thus ineligible in any event.
Fingolfin's house is not gone. Elrond is Fingolfin's decendant.
Would have made sense if Elrond had become the High King since he was of that line, though at the time the need of a united Leadership may have not been on anybody's' minds since they thought Sauron was defeated. Maybe some of the older and wiser elves like Galadriel could have had a claim but they may have not been interested since bad things did tend to happen to who ever was in command.
@Men of the West, despite having gone through LOTR many times, there’s still a couple of mysteries that I wonder about and would be helpful to have your insight on:
1. Sauron’s link with Gollum on his journey with Frodo: Sauron seemed to be aware of things that Gollum said and did but didn’t have any idea that Frodo had the ring. What was the nature of this connection and how was it that Sauron didn’t know that Gollum was traveling with the person who had his RING?
2. What exactly was the discrepancy that Bilbo hid in his telling of the dwarves about the ring? In the Hobbit, he hid his discovery of the ring altogether from the Dwarves until he had no choice but to confess during the battle with the spiders. But in Fellowship it is said that he still had a variation that he did not tell the dwarves. Any clues on this?
About Bilbo, the discrepancy is that he lied and told the dwarves that he won the riddle game fair and square and that Gollum willingly gave him the ring, instead of the truth that he found the ring on the floor and then kinda cheated to win the riddle game and kept the ring against Gollum’s wishes, using it to escape.
@Leo Velli, thanks for the information, I appreciate it.
Can you do a what if Elrond did become the high king after Gilgalad or what if Celebrimbor survived
the short story is that Elrond did not want to be the high king of the Noldor but chooses to remain the lord of Riverun
Being a King of the Noldor in Middle Earth was "accursed" and Elrond realised that. The Kingship was fraught with peril for as long as a Dark Lord was existing while ironically having a Dark Lord as an adversary was what kept the Noldors having a reason to stay in Middle Earth. The Silmaril problem was brought to a conclusion- the Dark Lord was brought down; the Rings of Power were made and a dark Lord successor arose; the One Ring unmade and the dark Lord thrown down for good, and, the 3 rings of power lost their power ; the Dominion of Men; no more "challenge" left for the remaining High Elves. With the loss of their power they grew tired and they all went home to be with loved ones: it would be great to know the adventures of Elladan and Elrohir( Arwen's we know of) but didn't they grow tired after the passing of Elessar and somehow made their own ship and followed their father home?
Did elrond marry celebrian in the second or third age?
Early Third Age.
I can sum this title up in one sentence "Because Elrond never claimed to be king."
Pure speculation on my part. I believe it had everything to do with the Doom of the Noldor. The High Kings of the Noldor invariably suffered the gravest responsibility of the Doom. I believe Gil-Galad wished to be the last to bear that burden, with the consent of Elrond and Galadriel.
What if Celebrimbor survived the sacking of Eregion? Please
I believe it would have been possible for either both Elrond or Galadriel to be the High King of the Elves.
3:38 Another point is that elves marry only once in their eternal life. So if Gilgalad had indeed a lover that went west or die, that explain why he never married.
3:45 Well, elves don't don't die like humans so maybe he truly thought having a heir was unnecessary? Or maybe he wanted to end his cursed lineage with himself?
I think you're might be into something when you said there was simply not enough Noldor to rule over and form a kingdom. Even the realms of Elrond and Galadriel are mostly inhabited by Sindar and Green Elves.
7:00 Galadriel did wanted to be queen at first in the past and i think she could have been High Queen if she wanted to. But it is canon that after taking rulership of Lothlorien, after everything that has fallen on her family and all the tragedies that happenned, Galadriel didn't want to be queen anymore and prefered to be the Lady of the Golden Wood.
I'm waiting to ask Tolkien himself on this one.
By the end of the 2nd Age the elves were very pragmatic.
They already knew that their realm in Middle Earth was ending, and that the surviving exiles would be reintegrated back into Valinor.
It made little sense for the remaining few to crown their own High King, only for him to abdicate to the true High King.
This was especially true when their were so few exiles left, and 2 contenders for the title. Why would they create rivalries and division when it was supposed to be a time for healing and preparation for departure?
so who was gil galads parents?
I've also found myself thinking that being High King of the Noldor in Exile tends to be a death sentence. I can see why Elrond might not want the job. Plus, how many actual Noldor were there still in Middle-earth by that point? And did Elrond perhaps not want to deal with having to try to tell Galadriel what to do, which would also be tangled up with the fact he wanted to marry her daughter.
Well, his granddaughter completed the unification of all the lines by marrying Elros heir and birthing a new line of kings as the other contestants returned to valinor, followed by Thranduil's heir on a later ship.
Coud you make some what if videos
What if Elrond became the High King of the noldor
What if Finwe survived
What if Elendil survived
What if the sons of Fëanor killed Eärendil Elwing
What if celebrimbor took the one Ring
What if melkor morgoth Gifted the silmarils Tho ungoliant
What if Lord Girion killed smaug
What if Lord Azaghâl killed Glaurung
What if Sauron killed Isildur
What if Beren took All the silmarils from morgoth
What if Beleriand dident zink into the Sea
What if Bard mist his Shot and smaug survived
What if the valar Maiar captured Sauron and the rest of the balrogs after the war of wrath
Probably the other reason is that Elrond didn't want or rejected the offer (if there is) or really did not intend to rule the elves in Middle Earth. My idea is that... he really intended to go to the undying lands to be reunited with his love of his life Celebrían, and bearing the responsibility of ruling an elven kingdom in Middle Earth is probably an unwise choice.
I think that from a literary perspective, it would have been difficult to justify Isildur's refusal to heed the counsel of Elrond to destroy The One Ring at the culmination of The Last Alliance had Elrond claimed the mantle of High-King of the Noldor after Gil-Galad's death and it was an order from a King of the Elves instead of just sage advice.
It is one thing for Isildur to ignore the regent of the now dead Elven High-King (and his great uncle) and claim The One Ring for himself, quite another for him to defy the command of the Elven High-King, had Elrond claimed the throne. Tolkien likely realized that the outcome of Isildur defying the command of High-King Elrond would likely lead to a war between the Noldor and Arnor and Gondor.
Hmm while that’s an interesting perspective, I don’t think it holds water since Isildur was a man not an elf, and heir to the Kings of Numenor. He wasn’t subordinate to any elven king, not even the High King of the Noldor. There’s no reason for him to be obligated to follow such a command, and it would be unjust for the elves to wage war for such a thing.
Might be worth bringing the sundering of the Middle Earth into the thinking. Before it happened Middle Earth and Valinor were connected, so you could look upon Gil-Galad being High King of the Noldor in his great-grandfather's stead (Finarfin). With the agnatic rule on the kingship, the obvious line would be that when Turgon died it would go to Finarfin, but with Finarfin in Valinor and the Noldor under the Doom of Mandos and not allowed to return to Valinor the only surviving Elf of the House of Finarfin who is in Middle Earth in 510 F.A. and so Gil-Galad is effectively becoming High King in his great-grandfather's name, though likely would then have a conversation with his great-grandfather after the War of Wrath wherein the establishment of the 2 High Kings, one for the Noldor of Valinor and the other for the Noldor in Middle Earth, would be made more official. But Gil-Galad would likely see no necessity to having an heir as his grandfather is High King in Valinor and all the dead former High Kings are in the Halls of Mandos so even if Finarfin dies (which is likely seen as nearly impossible with him living in Valinor) there are still other High Kings there, plus they have the overall kingship of Manwe that they fall under in Valinor.
Finarfin may have been king of the Noldor in Valinor ("Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor"), but the High Kingship of the Noldor only developed in Beleriand.
sauce on the art ?
The reason Gil-galad never got married and had kids could be the same curse Legolas was struck with. An elf only loves once, if they fall for someone who loves another then they're doomed to never be with anyone.
Hmm🤔
I had always thought that the elf Frodo fell on in the Dead Marshes was Gil-Galad?
Guess not.😏
Gil-Galad died in Mordor at the gates of Barad-dûr. That elf in Dead marches was another Noldo.
Did Elrond see the light of the trees?
Do you need to see that to be a king or queen?
No and No.
Gil-galad was born in Beleriand, he had a Sindarin mother.
Elrond is and was worthy of kingship, he has proved this many times. I am a fan of your videos although the genealogical argument is a bit sketchy, saying that I do believe your point on the diminishing realms has merit. The truth maybe that Elrond was written into the Hobbit initially and then as the lore filled out that place was maintained. If the order of things was written chronologically then he would most likely be the current High King.
Elrond didn't become King because he knew the horrid fates the befell all the Kings that came before. From Finwe to Gil-Galad, every Nordorian King died in a horrible fashion.
Gil-galad’s absence of a wife makes me wonder if that character was a nod to the priest that was his mentor/father-figure, Father Morgan. I only say this because a) Catholic priests devote themselves to unmarried lives, and b) some eldest characters could be veiled respects to Tolkien’s elders from his youth. This is an off-the-wall theory, and, if it is true, I doubt that the author actually tried to make Gil-Galad a mirror of his mentor’s characteristics.
I've understood Finarfin was the High King of Noldor in Valinor so he could've taken over as most Noldor were leaving Middle-Earth. Wasn't Galadriel offered a crown already in Eregion and later in Lorien but she declined?
Finarfin may have been king of the Noldor in Valinor ("Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor"), but the High Kingship of the Noldor only developed in Beleriand.
In a version Galadriel founded Eregion but was expelled by the most powerful lord there, Celebrimbor.
The most accepted narrative is that Celebrimbor founded and she lived there and advised against Mairon, but no one listened.
Love your content, but I have to disagree that the succession custom of the Noldor is agnatic primogeniture. Maedhros' words to Fingolfin ("If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe") suggests that rule passed to the eldest [male] in the family. This probably makes sense among immortals. However, Maedhros absolutely DID change the custom by committing the High Kingship of the Noldor to the House of Fingolfin. That's why Turgon becomes High King after Fingon and why Gil-galad as (at least in the published Silmarillion canon) son of Fingon does not become High King until Turgon's death. Personally, I prefer the version where Gil-galad is son of Fingon (for lots of different reasons). In The Nature of Middle-earth, we get a birth date for Gil-galad that has him born in Aman in the Light of the Trees. And that's why I think he was the last High King of the Noldor -- he was the last of Fingolfin's descendants to have been born in the Light of the Trees, the last of the Exilic Noldor (as Tolkien called them) of that line. In this scenario, Elrond would not have been an eligible successor because he was not Calaquendi, and Galadriel would not have been an eligible successor because she was not of the House of Fingolfin (although I still think she deserved to be High Queen).
The Gil-galad born in Aman scenario seems to have been abandoned (both before and after that note, he was born in Beleriand).
Galadriel would not be Eligible because she was female. Under the scenario you ponder, Idril would have been High Queen.
Having heirs is not really something that I feel matters much to the elves. Since elves can theoretically live forever, the importance of someone to continue on your legacy is not as important as for mortal races.
It's funny, but my first thought when starting this video was that perhaps Elrond never took up the title of High King was out of honor and respect for Gil-Galad.
I think that it is strange that Gil-Galad became the High King. After Turgon's death the High Kingship should pass to Idril or Ëaerendil, which are both direct descendants of Turgon.
The way the High Kingship passed is to the eldest eligible male of the House of Finwe. The Feanoreans were dispossessed, and thus not eligible.
After the death of Turgon, Gil-galad was the eldest eligible male member surviving.
@@Tar-Elenion So why after Fëanor's death didn't kingship pass directly to Fingolfin? I know that High Kingship beggins with Fingolfin and Fëanor wasn't High King, but High Kingship practically arise from original Noldorin kingship, so I assume that rules are the same. And after Fëanor's death Maedhros, his eldest heir, became king, not Fingolfin, the eldest descendant of Finwë.
@@bedlaskybedla6361 Tolkien does not say Maedhros became king. He says Maedhros yielded his claim.
Tolkien also does not say Feanor was king.
He does say, several times, that Fingolfin was king (after Finwe 'unkinged' himself, when Feanor was banished) e.g.:
"But the Gnomes of Tun would not renounce the kingship of Fingolfin, and as two divided hosts therefore they set forth..."
SoMe, The Quenta
"Yet the Noldor of Tûn would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin; and as two divided hosts, therefore, they at length set forth upon their bitter road"
LRaoW, Quenta Silmarillion
"After banishment of Feanor (& Finwe) Ingoldo became king, and took name of Finwe; but was known as Vinya Finwe or Ingoldo Finwe. From Ingoldofinwe > Ingolfin. [If Fingolfin is used at all this must be for Finwe·nolofinwe.]"
Parma Eldalamberon 17
After the death of Finwe, Feanor claims the kingship, the most part of the Noldor do not accept Feanor's claim refusing to renounce Fingolfin who had been ruling them, e.g.:
""...and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor of Túna."
"He [Feanor] claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar."
"For though he [Feanor] had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Fëanor as king. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them."
MR, Annals of Aman
It seems to me, at this point there is a disputed kingship, with rival claimants. This dispute is not resolved until after Feanor is slain, and the princes have their council affirming Fingolfin:
"Therefore when the council came to the choosing of one to be the overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin. And even as the choice was made known, all those that heard it recalled the words of Mandos that the House of Fëanor should be called the Dispossessed for ever."
WotJ, Grey Annals
Just like the Stewards of Gondor were kings in all but name, Elrond was High King in all but name. But the Noldor were such a small group after the War of the Last Alliance and the title got no respect from the Sindar and Silvan elves. Such a title would have been left meaningless.