This Is Why Good Writers Never Write A Perfect First Draft - Jack Grapes
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- čas přidán 2. 10. 2021
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Jack Grapes is an award-winning poet, playwright, actor, teacher, and the editor and publisher of ONTHEBUS, one of the top literary journals in the country. He has won several publishing grants and Fellowships in Literature from the National Endowment for the Arts. He's also received nine Artist-in- Residence Grants from the California Arts Council to teach writing in various schools throughout Los Angeles. He is the author of 13 books of poetry, including TREES, COFFEE, AND THE EYES OF DEER, and BREAKING DOWN THE SURFACE OF THE WORLD. A spoken-word CD, Pretend, was recently issued by DePaul University. He is also author of a chapbook of poems and paintings titled AND THE RUNNING FORM, NAKED, BLAKE. His most recent publication is LUCKY FINDS, a boxed set of 50 cards that extend and parody the dynamic artistic productions of high-modernist poets such as Ezra Pound and Charles Olson. For more information on Jack's classes, please visit: jackgrapes.com/classesgeneral...
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My favorite writing quote is from Ernest Hemingway, "The first draft of anything is shit."
All the classic drafts have something I respect, though the Fourth draft is my favourite.
Or his other quote: “write drunk, edit sober.”
I don’t even know what first draft means. I do heavy editing - contrary to most expert advice - at least weekly.
That was an insanely roundabout way to say something very simple
"Poets never finished writing a poem. They only abandon it."
👍
Do poets make bad parents?
@@listenup2882 no bad fathers...make bad fathers...
@@listenup2882 very
Then you haven't read Lovecraft.
Is he literally interviewing himself?
Lol.
Well someone has to do it. This girl is terrible at it.
@@min11benja Thank you she’s driving me nuts… how can you get the word WHY wrong three fkn times.
She puts up with some shit, lol
He’s a bit of a rump.
I always think that the first draft is for getting all the ideas in some sort of order and start filling in the blanks.
I enjoy Jack Grapes’s writing tips. They’re simple yet effective. Plus, the way he explains them is a shock to my senses. Much respect!
Wow, thank you. I could not have said it better. I actually had to stop two times in one of his videos when he was talking about writing deep and I could not describe adequately why to my daughter.
Karen, your patience is astounding.
If I'm ever fortunate enough to be interviewed by you and I tell you how to do your job, feel free to throw a paper ball at my head.
Lighten up, fella. He was playing. Having fun, with his tongue in his cheek. Did you actually not realise that?
you must be a feminist.
@@rocketscience4516 watch all his other clips with her. He gives good answers but antagonizes her relentlessly. It’s kind of hard to watch
This guy has some good insight. I just want to stab my eyes out whenever I listen to him.
I remember the footage of george lucas leaving his office and proclaiming the first draft of phantom menace to be great. Yep…
He later admitted that the "first draft" was actually just the entire set of Jar Jar Binks' lines.
Top favorite series of interviews!!!👍🏽💯
Every person you interview is so special. I keep thinking I have favorites and here I am again with a new favorite! Love this guy
No-one is glad to see this guy sit next to them at the bar.
He makes things needlessly convoluted in order to show off how wise he is.
I'll give it to him, that was very witty. He proved his point of how hard it is to translate an idea to paper with that exchange with Karen. Most writers tell you that the first draft is just the foundation. (Some genius unicorns out there can write a perfect first draft but that is not the case for 99% of writers)
haha I felt some cringe in this video. haha. you did well handling this situation tho.
edit: the pay-off worked tho 😆
😂 Jack is such a ballbuster. Was it expected that he’d take control over the interview?
I hope the first part was fun for you, Karen, not frustrating AF? He's playful, he's interesting, he has a lot of wisdom - but damn, when he's on a mission to frame something a specific way, looks like there's no stopping the guy! 😆
I entered PAGE Awards this year with my 1st draft. Judges Feedback kicked me in the ass. I needed it. Re-wrote the whole thing. It is 100% different than the original. 1000 times better. Now I hired a Professional Screenplay Editor. Next year I will have 10 judges feedback from PAGE and enter 10 Screenplay Writing Contests. This is a hobby. I am a published author as well.
Karen and Jack's chemistry is perfect and very entertaining itself.
I never thought of it like that, but it's so true.
This guy is going in my book as a way to tip the main character over the edge.
What a perspective on first draft! Blew my mind!
wonderful interview
this applies to basically everything. love it.
please interview him again.
Really? This whole interview was very hard to watch. This man thinks he’s running this whole thing.😊
I watched it again to get the joke and to absorb what he said.
The conclusion at the end is eye opening.
Drafts are like awaiting window opportunities for more ideas! Perfect👍
I really like his teaching and will check out the book but seriously the first few minutes of this video with him requiring her to recite a stupid joke drove me crazy.
This entire meeting could have been an email.
In one of the interviews they started this conversation and she said "Well I'm not gonna ask that question, I'm gonna ask a different question...." And I searched for other interviews but never found the conclusion. Finally it shows up in my feed. Thank you so much for posting. I could listen to this guy all day.
Love what you are doing here.
I feel like I can learn a lot from this guy
We took the long way to get to his point, but it was worth it. Especially since right now I’m finishing a first draft that I’m trying too hard to make perfect. Thanks for the video
Took a bit to get there but this was actually a really good answer, especially for your viewers who don’t know if they’re good writers yet. He actually answered the question I was looking for
This is great!
Great insight from Jack
Man i always feel so sorry for Karen 💀 but i love the way Jack explains his stuff and these videos are just so great
id feel so embarrassed to keep getting my lines wrong
@@Z5Z5Z5 especially when your line is the word “Why”? And you blow it 3 times. 🙆🏻
@@KarmasAbutch that was not her line though. He’s not interviewing himself and she had other questions to get into.
The first half was *hilarious*. I almost fell off my chair, laughing so hard. Now I understand ROTFL. On the one hand I wonder if that part wasn't all choreographed, but then again it all looked so natural (especially from Karen).
On the serious side, what Jack says in this and in the preceding video is absolute gold, all of it. His answer to "why?" brings to mind the Dunning-Kruger effect, where someone who is utterly incompetent to assess their own work is bound to think that it's the greatest thing ever created, whereas someone who is "that good" is critical of their own creation and can see where improvements might make the work even better (subjective, of course).
So many great quotes to live by in that short 30-ish minutes total.
I died laughing.
But yeah it's like of course the first draft is gonna need a rewrite because that's the purpose of a first draft. I used to do debating and we had to write out all our arguments by hand for both the proposition AND the opposition. That's when my hatred for writing started. And every revision had to be done by hand too. So I guess I'm used to the idea that a first draft is not meant to be perfect. But I do understand that there are some people who think a story is just supposed to flow out like water from a jug and come out perfectly first time and I think that's probably because they've fetishized the writing process based on some Hollywood trope. In real life writing is annoying and takes way more time than you think it would.
.....Great advice, however as a visual artist, one CAN over work a piece. Thank you once again, PEACE, and God bless.
People, particularly photographers, often say that, but I wonder whether they aren't good enough to see and rectify the problem. Or perhaps they don't know their destination.
I love how she didn’t edit all that out
Thank you sir
"This is not the best soup I ever made but this will do." THAT stuck with me.
The first 3 minutes was like a having a fkking stroke. This woman’s patients is from the gods
Insightful as always, thank you! I finished writing my first feature this past week. Film Courage helped me stay on the right path plus be motivated. I’m now editing this first draft, but it’s ended shorter than I anticipated at 64 pages. I’m thinking maybe it’s too fast paced or needs something more. Any advice for this? Would love to hear if you have any tips or other videos for someone like me. Thank you very much Karen :D
If it is fast paced, then I take it this it is an action plot. Try slowling it down a little by adding some slower scenes into the mix.
6:30 I had thr opportunity to talk to a couple of playwrights who adapted our professor's book into a Broadway play and they said something similar: "A play is never finished, its just abandoned."
They said they were still revising the script the day before the performance.
It gave me confidence to finish my stories instead of trying to work on them all the time
There was a British TV series, Broadchurch. The writer had an alternative finale in case the original leaked. The actors never saw a script until they had to learn it,
Wow. Very good point. If you’re good you’ll see where it can get better and execute
You might _believe_ it's a perfect draft, working nonstop can make you enamored with it. You might not even be writing "the novel" anymore, now it is "this draft". Changes start to seem damaging to the novel while you secretly protect the draft. I'd always want to check my work after at least a short break or morning after if I was about to make it public in any way.
Don't touch your work. Let it sit for awhile. Then, upon reflecting on it, and re-reading it, flaws will eventually start to become fairly obvious. And you will proceed to change, modify and improve the "perfect draft".
Happened to me, I'm about to throw out most of the 40,000 words I had done of my first attempt at a novel, which started as fanfiction, and evolved into more.
Because I'm over those ideas that I have left behind, see their flaws, and I already have their superior replacements ready.
@mirceazaharia2094 Right. And I'm sure it's going to be a lot better now, I was never sorry for adding a few more iterations at least. I think this applies to almost any type of project, by the way. I've re-written a lot of code, for example, and sometimes it amazed just how big of an improvement it was, doing a second pass over a mostly-materialized idea, rather than building it up from scratch as I go. Even have a few specific functions that I've been randomly re-writing every now and then for maybe more than a decade.
The only thing one has to look out for is a re-writing loop... but I think that's mostly reserved for perfectionists, and those have to be vigilant about all sorts of pitfalls anyway. I've seen more rushed or half-baked projects that were released because the author already wanted to do something new, than projects endlessly stuck in re-writing loops.
Good luck by the way!
There a compliment that appy so well to Jack Grapes. The guy is a teacher.
Yes. Absolutely!
Alright! Jack Grapes is one of my favorites!
Once again, Grapes nails what it means to be a writer! Nothing we ever do can be perfect and writing is no exception. The perfect first draft didn't happen to Shakespeare, Keates, Wodehouse, Dickens or any other great writer, so it sure ain't gonna happen to me or you! If we get really lucky, little bits here and there can be perfect - but then there are all those other bits in between that need reworking and polishing.
Note to self - get off YT and finish that story outline for that perfect movie script that is due in a couple of month's time!
I’m digging Jack Grapes!
thankyou very much
You are most welcome
Has he written anything that's been produced?
Why? You want to discredit his knowledge?
I'm sure there are a ton of Hollywood screen writers who learned from teachers and mentors that didn't have a Hollywood resume loaded with screen plays that were produced. The idea that you can only learn from someone who has movies made is ridiculous. Just like there are a ton of actor famous actors who learned from people who weren't big Hollywood actors themselves. Teaching is it's own unique skill set different from doing.
@@jimmorrison9287 You read a lot into my question.
Can’t believe how you were attacked for asking an honest question lol.
I was annoyed for about 4:45 then I was damn he’s got me lol
same here, you're wondering what he's driving at and then around 4:30 he gets ya. Glad I stuck with him.
I guess he doesn’t give a great first interview either 😂
Oh my god. He is so good. So good. Sooooo good. And thank you for asking him (why) 😃
That got weird.
I like rewriting. My favourite music is Stravinsky's _Rewrite of Spring._
Thanks, now I understand why a human are not the best creature in the world.
He said what exactly knew but sometimes you need to listen from someone else just to believe that 'I am not alone'
Plus he must be good teacher and I liked all your videos anyway...FC 🥰🥰🥰
This was like interviewing David Brent
This guy is not only esoteric, he's a philosopher as well.😊
I love this guys humor. 😆
Yeah! You asked the question!
This is an object lesson in the generational competency gap when it comes to creativity, analytical thinking and good writing. Something has gone wrong with the generations born after about 1970 - maybe earlier.
Karen is the best interviewer in my opinion 😅💯
Jack❤️
4:15 Dont know whatcha don't know👌👌👌
I wrote a story a couple years ago and sent the first draft to a pro-paying market with minimal edits.
After a long time of not hearing anything, I came back to it. It was a mess. I workshopped it and workshopped it until it was the story I'd meant to write, or as close as I could make it.
About a week later I got an email saying they were accepting the original draft for publication.
Did I write a perfect first draft? Absolutely not. This is just a lesson in the strange serendipity that exists between what a writer expects of themselves and what an editor reads. In that weird well, magic happens.
Couldn't share the same room for more than a minute. Might even jump out the window.
Tbh I think he's my least favorite I've seen so far. He talks a lot and says very little. I prefer straight and to-the-point teachers who explain succinctly. I find all his clips very annoying to get through.
He's got excellent points to make... he just finds the most annoying way of explaining them in these videos.
@@cluckendip He honestly tries to make us speed up the video or something lol
@@corpsefoot758 i watch in 2x speed already so i don't mind haha
Yeah this was the hardest video to listen to. And a little cringe. But he’s got good info. Just gotta be patient with it. Lol
He comes across trying to sound like his the smartest person in the world, when it takes him hours to just get to a simple point.
I’d be curious to know if a person can always make something better- at what point do you publish?
You will know when you get to that point. You will know that only superficial alterations can be made henceforth. Refining would achieve the same effect and the essence would not change.
He is right about almost all of this. But I disagree with the implication that writers can immediately know how to fix all of what they have just written. When you write a draft, you gradually lose perspective. You are very close to what you have written. It is very common to say, 'OK, this is pretty good. I know this might not be perfect, but it's the best I can do AT THE MOMENT'. And that natural loss of perspective is a good solid reason for that.
It's not common to think you can scroll back to the top and immediately fix everything. How and what to do does not automatically appear to you as if on a flaming pie. Creativity flows, sometimes voluminously in a draft, but typically at a trickle, afterward. For everyone that is creative.
Second drafts are rarely good enough to be final drafts, whether they happen immediately after completing a first draft or not.
In my own writing, I do fix things as I go, and I may go over something as much as 2-5 times over the next 2-5 days, and I do fix certain things. But the more I do, the more I lose perspective, and the more difficult that becomes, and perfection is then still out of reach in that moment. I don't think there are writers with superpowers that can avoid that natural loss of perspective. If there were, we'd have a lot more literature that is perfect. And no art is ever perfect.
That loss of perspective is what impedes knowing what to fix and how. The good news is that if you put the work down for a while and come back, you do that with a regained perspective, and then, you do know what needs fixing and how, or at least some of it. It might take an hour, it might take a year. But the focus returns. What it does not do is return immediately after the first draft. That is as specious an idea as is the idea that what you first wrote is perfect.
It's hilarious how much this could've been cut down. I love the knowledge though, just gotta make sure I don't skip past the nonsense too much and miss out.
The funny part is if it wasn't for Karen's question we wouldn't have that brilliant piece on genius which is what led me to this great piece too.
Oh my god dude get to the point lmaoo. The interviewer is a saint
Ja ja poor Karen 😄 I love the way he explained it. And the idea "I can make it better"♥️
Let’s go….. Jack Grapes Film 🎞 Courage
He very much has a teacher's personality.
He is so good at deliver his message 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
You’re too good because you know something better else is going to come
Well, now I feel confident... kinda.
Very clever and very true 🤣
Some parts are Kafkaesque. In a good way.
Have you ever written a perfect first draft?
Yes
No. I commented above about this. First draft to me is simply putting all the ideas I have in order and then start filling in the blanks.
It's not for me. The treatment is putting the ideas in order. The first draft is the rush of dialogue and I have no idea what the characters are going to say. They just talk to each other. After the first draft I'm done. I've never gone back to work on a second draft.
No...it can always be better...
Oh. This guy.
In 1963 I sat for an exam in geometry and trigonometry. My answers were perfect.
And then I changed something, and only got 98%.
Lookin' at you, Rian Johnson...
this is genius
Our special for tonight is word salad.
i never want to interview him.....that woman is having a hard time
Wasn't the film "Mother!" a first draft? (Cause that would explain why it was so awful)
I cant see anyone ever shooting a first draft. Even editing a film is considered another draft of the the script. I also cant imagine anyone as seasoned as Aronofsky shooting a first draft script.
Haha funny. I got what you mean. To this day the execution of the metaphor was lost on everyone!!
the first draft gets things started
a second draft reshapes
ignore daft, dour comments
they're merely sour, grapes
He waltzed her right into that joke
Oh, my god, why do I need to hear all the rehearsals?
Yo get the point! The first three minutes of this were like watching friends doing inside jokes, aka not entertaining to anyone but them
4:18 "Because, I can see where it can be better." Ok,... but what if, by constant rewrites, you make it much worse!?🤔
"...and I know how to do it."
Somebody needs to tackle Stephen King, because he's apparently doing it all wrong.
He hands his first draft to his editor and moves on to the next novel.
there's an easy way to write and a hard way, if you chose the easy way stick to your first draft.
Perfection is the enemy of success, but so is mediocracy. Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that the Dunning-Kruger syndrome is
sufficiently well represented within the ambitious/esoteric world of creative writing. Thank you for sharing this poignant examination of self-critique.
Jack doesn't happen to be a master Zen practitioner perchance?