The MISANDRY Paradox
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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Ep 208 | @FinntasticMrFox joins the fellas to discuss the concept of 'MISANDRY'
0:00 Preview
4:27 Can MEN talk about WOMEN’s issues?
8:56 Is MISANDRY real?
49:33 IT'S A RED FLAG: if they sell drugs??
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Please do bring Finn back for the inevitable conversation of the loneliness topic. Thank you all for the talk in this video 🙏🏽
I hope they do that episode soon, I really want to hear their takes on it.
Oh absolutely yes
Finn fr was like “oh no, I dropped my feminist literature books 💪”
A theory I have come to after doing reading and research is that patriarchy operates as a misogynistic and misandrist system and it is also antagonistic to children. Patriarchy operates as a system that dehumanizes people to feed the systems that keep civilization going at the expense of individuals and their humanity. While I do believe the brunt of patriarchy is felt most by women & girls how it operates as a system that feeds capitalism & truly only fully benefits men at the top of the socioeconomic ladder at the expense of everyone else also dehumanizes men by stripping them of their humanity as well for example men being cannon fodder in proxy wars. However as a woman who focuses on the issues that women and girls face & centers that unapologetically I think men should center their issues that these systems give them & take issue with the powers that be rather than expecting women to center their issues above womens issues.
Most feminist are women (at least for now). So if you really believe that feminism is a movement for equality for all genders, then it is also your (aka women's) responsibility as much as it is men's to address male discrimination.
Yes, men should take the majority of the responsibility on men's issues, no one denies that. The issue comes when you have this "us vs. them" mentality and somehow immediately assume that men asking women to join the fight = ignoring women's issues.
If you want to bring more men (and women) to the left, then you need to understand that that mentality has to go.
Exactly, patriarchy isn't a one trick pony. It promotes one type of masculine and feminine expression, and crushes all other. It just hates more kinds of femininity than the kinds of masculinity it hates.
What you call påatriarchy, educated people call financial/industrial elites. The problem is you shifted the term from gender neutral to male, with all the BS that comes with that implication. Women effectively played into the divide and conquer tactic by segregating the natural solidarity between men and women. Women and mens relations have never been farther apart.
I could say that society large operates on a gynocentric mindset, which could easily be grounds for calling it a matriarchy. Wouldnt that be fair aswell? Buzzwords are convenient. Maybe I will start calling it a matriarchy. Just to give women a sense of how ridiculous they sound to men.
I'm a man that read this and let out a Ric Flair "woo!" Agree totally.
My opinion: misandry seems to be a contentious topic in leftist spaces due to the concept conflicting with people’s ideas of man/women dynamics. They tend to have a dichotomous way of analyzing men and women and it goes as far certain people merely presenting the relationship as adversarial. You don’t even have to say “misandry” for people to get riled up about men’s issues. My opinion is that misandry is real and harmful but also invisible
'misandry' isn't invisible and it was outlined as a concept decades ago by feminists but people don't like to hear that the way patriarchy reasserts itself is harmful to men and that's what the true meaning of 'toxic masculinity' is. people don't engage with that because they are scared of feminism itself or the word feminism or what they think feminism is.
@@incogneat0901When I said it’s invisible I meant people probably haven’t thought about the bigotry they’re displaying
The fact that maleness is an intersection of oppress is constantly missed when people talk about intersectional feminism
what do you mean?
I think this is a very interesting conversation. From my perspective as a woman, patriarchy makes it all of our problem. It’s not any one individual man or woman or enby person, it’s the system. I see the value of using misandry to acknowledge the pain of men as unique. But I think it loses utility when it comes to solutions. I think it implies that women are the enemy instead of systems, and you can see this in how MRAs use the term online.
I also love how Josh goes back to the definition. Take murder as an example. Men get murdered more but it’s usually men doing the murdering. So it’s not necessarily a hatred of men, but a performance of masculinity that includes enacting violence on other people. This affects women and enby people due to things like assault stats, but it also affects men in terms of murder. At the end of the day, the perpetrators is patriarchy that insists that violence is part of the masculine identity, not a hate for men intrinsically.
Just some thoughts.
Ooop Finn just said this lol. I just typed it tho so I’m still posting.
Edit: added gender inclusive terms even though I probably didn’t do a great job. Apologies in advance.
Agree wholeheartedly that they are focused on keeping misandry from being the opposite side of the coin of misogyny, which is colloquially how it’s used…but they aren’t equivalent. And exactly this point - are men being murdered because they are men or is there other modifiers that are more significant at times AND are they victims, like non-men, of performative masculinity.
It reminds me when people argue that black on black crime is worse than systemic racism and police brutality. But are black people killing black people out of racism or are their modifiers there more necessary in addition to just black - class struggles, organized crime, etc. It doesn’t mean class issues and organized crime aren’t worth fighting, they just aren’t the same thing as purely systemic racism.
I agree
Perhaps it is because men are *acceptable targets of violence* as decreed by society.
You can see this in rates of state sanctioned violence and punishment, and even in the commentary of criminal elements themselves who broadly espouse the idea victimizing women is considered 'low' behavior on par with victimizing children.
I believe the term you would use is 'Internalized Misandry', as these men operate with the mindset that men are inherently less worthy of protection and consideration than women or children.
Patriarchy isn't a thing
Thank god Alvin is back.
Praise be to Allah
No thank the Patriarchy! 😂
For real, I paused the video to have my own little rant, hit play and he said the same thing 😂
Inshallah !!
I felt this wholeheartedly 😂😂
I'm at 40min, so idk if they say this, but I think something they are missing here is that the term 'misandry' (as Josh defined it very helpfully) is specifically calling out the *hatred* of men (or otherwise prejudice).
But MANY of those things they lined out: higher rate of murdered men, higher rate of male loneliness, men being unable to express their feelings, etc is NOT because men hate men (per se)... its because many men (and many women) in a systematic way are trying to put men into a very specific box. Thus why, to Alvin's point, patriarchy is a better word for this phenomena.
Misandry Does exist, but it does not describe these aforementioned symptoms. Patriarchy does, specifically through the expectation of (toxic) masculinity. HOWEVER, at the same time, the *solution* is not about prejudice, its about being able to be more open and (LOL, Josh said it right I was typing) to be Fully Human! Not just some ideal of a 'provider' or 'strong man' or whatever.
Misandry exists primarily as a sort of reactionary mindset people have towards the traumas of patriarchy. Its when people (primarily women, but also men, enbies, etc) say things like 'fuck men' or 'all men are stupid' or 'men are violent' or whatever. But that almost Never actually results in material harm against men. Even the very few times a men may be harmed by a misandrist, its a rounding error compared to the vast majority of women harmed by misogynistic men.
Something that is Much more harmful to men is the ideals of masculinity that a lot of people hold men to in expectation to hold up the patriarchal system.
Examples of this is when parents belittle their sons for crying or playing with dolls or doing anything 'girly'. They dont this because of prejudice or hate, thus its not misandry. They do this because of the patriarchal idea of masculinity (ie they should be 'strong' and 'manly'). THIS is what creates men who are so alienated from their own humanity that they cant make lasting friendships or solve conflict non-violently, or deal with their emotions in a healthy way.
Of course women and enbies and so on play a part in this. It won't help At All if they perpetuate these issues through misandry, but ultimately, the misandry is just a consequence of the larger issue of patriarchy. They see countless men who are alienated from their own humanity, and thus develop a misandrist mindset. Thus why its so important to recognize that the problem does not start or stop with misandry.
And, to push this one step further, I believe the problem does not start or stop with patriarchy either! I think the core all of these issues lies with hierarchy. The idea that certain people should have more power then others. This inherently creates pretty much every single problem.
Its precisely due to hierarchy that patriarchy was created in the first place. It was men in power that realized they could maintain their power by making other men believe they all should have more power. Even though most men DO NOT benefit (much) from patriarchy, since many Believe they do or should, they refuse to recognize it as an issue. And yes, there are plenty of women in power who also support this precisely because they too benefit from being the rich man's wife, for instance... but that does not mean the women are solely at fault.
This is all a simplification of a problem that is several thousand years old and spans most of humanity, so no doubt there are far more complexities then I have covered in this already long comment, but yeah... I think we need to recognize the full scope of these problems if we ever wish to really solve them.
I hope Finn comes back soon. This episode really blew by too quickly, and I was riveted. The loneliness conversation really has to happen.
11:04 I love that Alvin made this distinction. I've been using the phrase "working definition vs dictionary definition" but he summed it up perfectly. People be so dense about stuff like that
My favorite example, and it's even shown in this video--is how most men have an out-group bias towards women, and most women have an in-group bias towards themselves and other women. When something happens to the outie squad, it's their own fault, when something happens to the innie squad, everyone joins together to create enormous sweeping systematic and societal changes to put in place golden parachutes and nets for every last one of them. All at the expense of working class men, but yea, whatever, "they probably deserved it," right..?
I swear sometimes Eddy has a different opinion from the group just for the sake of being a contrarian so much so that he starts to confuse himself. Thank god for Alvin
I'm AFAB and i want to hear you talk about solo female travel! I've never heard anyone discuss it in detail before and I have a lot of opinions on the safety/reality of it, especially for vanlife. A lot of these issues apply to men too!
Misandry is real. It just has very minimal implications since all major pillars of civilization (religion, politics, academia, capitalism, culture, etc) are rooted in masculinity/men being more dominant.
Basically, women CAN hate men, but society was not structured for those feelings to matter or be that harmful. It is valid to be concerned about it, nonetheless. Men have feelings, too.
I'm reminded of one of the conversations that they had with the Suburban Boys and an analogy used. How society interacts with women is like a house burning down and how society sometimes interacts with men is like a tree burning down. Both are bad, but the house should probably receive priority.
If there is any threat with misandry as a larger issue, it's that things won't get better on a personal level. Misandry is unlikely to become an institutional ill like misogyny is, but people's intimate relationships are going to suffer. Think of how many marriages and partnerships have probably ended due to internalized misogyny; throwing in misandry will just make people even more miserable, hating each other for merely existing, let alone any individual-specific grievances.
I disagree with the idea that society was structured a certain way therefore those feelings can’t be that harmful. It’s easy to say that since you’re not the direct target of those feelings to know how harmful it is to an average men. Which is odd because you say men have feelings but you dismiss the idea of them being that harmful to men’s feelings by gauging it with your own barometer rather than ask what men actually feel about this and let the explain it. Also just because society is structured a certain way doesn’t mean that they can’t restructured by another force. The force doesn’t need absolute power to restructure all of society just enough to influence like media and educational institutions. Basically female characters being a replacement for male characters with a female skin and universities influence what spaces are deemed worthy.
@@hexgp I think you misread or I didn’t word the sentence well enough. Society is not structured for misandry to be harmful to the way it functions, despite it being harmful to men emotionally. I hope I worded it better.
Even in the instances you exemplified- from my vantage point, it more-so indicates that Hollywood is so unwilling to risk energy on original female stories that they’d rather just pass down a male story/character to a female audience because they still believe masculinity is more interesting to watch. That was always my interpretation of this pattern.
I haven’t been to university in about a decade. So, I’m out of the loop on how they operate these days. But I’ll take your word for it.
@@LoneWulf278 I can agree that society is not structured for functional to be misandrist or misogynist. Regarding the original female stories point it’s fair to say Hollywood is on the fence trying original stories in general not just female original stories. That’s why they continue and make sequels and change male characters to female characters because they don’t wanna take risk and see what works. But regarding media, it’s also news stories and what is featured or discussed on mainstream platforms. That’s not going to be an issue in the near future though since online media is more influential than traditional media. I say near future because traditional media is still consumed by older generations.
@@TheMagnanimousMany Based on your comment society protects and values women more than men. So how does that translate to misogyny? If society hates women then why does it prioritize women's safety and needs over men's?
I love when all three of you are there with a guest. 🙌🏽
I think you can't appreciate the social dominance of patriarchy without understanding that it first subjugates men to its will under the guise of a toxic fraternity THEN it uses its manipulated unity to dominate minority ethnic groups, women, and unaccepted men. This is also why I think the trans question is not a threat to patriarchy.
misandry and patriarchy go hand in hand
everyone was spittin in this one
really coulda listened to all of y'all for another 2 hrs on these topics.
@25:40 I would add some other observations. It seems like men don’t have a strong shared adversity that is anywhere near the shared history of women. There’s an air of nobility and romanticism attached to a long struggle, especially in a time where there’s currency in social justice or marginalization in certain spaces. The conversation around misandry when it isn’t really appropriate just seems like a way for those men to cash in on some kind of experience that could bring them together, even if they don’t have a strong case for the word. It sounds like a more virtuous unifying conversation than the shared history of power.
There's no shared history of women.
White women raping and abusing black people has no shared history with black women.
You know, you may have a point there. I've always felt a deep kinship, or at least a deep empathy, with men as an amab and presently a gender sideways masc presenting person (insofar as my physical body goes.). In recent years I've felt a deep confusion why it seems like there's a lot of men who can't see the way I do how this system is bullshit and we'd be better off and happier standing together in rejection and open contempt of it to tear it all the fuck down to splints and build our happiness and freedom from the ashes. It could be that my experience as a queer gender nonconformist doesn't gel with the perspective of straight men since I have more experience with oppression and thus more opportunity to see the adversity against me. I'm well aware it's a commonly sold lie that men become strong, powerful, true men through struggle and strife and pushing through it without complaint as a real man does, but I guess I'd just like to think that it's so obviously a crock of horse shit that I like to think most men wouldn't accept that crap so readily without challenge, but maybe more do than I realize/I'd like to admit. But maybe it's easier for me to see past the lies if I recognize the system wasn't for me in the first place, well imo it's not for anyone anymore these days except the rich and powerful at the top, but I'm aware it's still technically less for "us" than it is a straight, white dude.
@@gregvs.theworld451 Yeah. A lot of these types of guys aren’t looking forward to joining larger social/economic justice developments nor are they trying to help dismantle anything. This conversation is often just a way to intercept challengers in order to maintain the status quo. It’s hard filtering through actual good faith discussions of men’s issues because it is very polluted with status quo proponents.
@@LoneWulf278 To be fair (speaking here from an American perspective so if you're not American you may feel differently, though I think this is more a core tenant of Capitalism.), we do live in a hyper individualist culture that tries to sell us on getting by on our own merits and vilifying the concepts of needing help from or leaning on social support nets or the government for policy to help everybody, as well as dehumanizing anybody who doesn't succeed, regardless of the reasons why. That's not specifically a male socialization problem, most people are guilty of thinking that way until they unlearn the messaging, but I'm sure it certainly contributes to the idea among men that it's fruitless and silly to stand together in social and economic movements demanding change, because we're sold that that's just whining about wanting other people's wealth instead of just getting it ourselves. Of course we know that's not true, but capitalism loves it when people buy that line and fight against people who reject it.
@@gregvs.theworld451 Exactly! And because men see their gender most represented among elites, they are more prone to thinking they have the same potential. They end up thinking that “just” becoming wealthy is a better use of their time and energy than building community *against* the wealthy. 🤦♀️
It’s hard to talk about anything that’s against men cuz everyone just goes “well it’s patriarchy’s fault so shut up”. Like individual feelings are still valid, I was only born 27 years ago, I didn’t invent patriarchy myself. I get that women go through hell but individuals do too, so it really feels like as a man you shouldn’t even feel a type of way about anything cuz it always just boils down to “your a man so patriarchy is your fault so you shouldn’t complain about anything”
In this episode that really wasn’t said and there are many people who don’t perpetuate that narrative while still being feminists / allies to feminism. Men’s liberation movement is a great example. Of course there will always be traumatized people who don’t want to hear men ever, and that’s because they haven’t dealt with their trauma imo.
Its patriarchy isn’t to shut it down, it’s to open up the dialogue and connect the dots because attempting to speak about “misandry” while not addressing patriarchy is unproductive imo. If I present an issue that’s personal to me and someone else points out that issue is actually systemic and there’s large populations of people actively fighting it, I don’t feel my issue is non-existent but bigger than me and I join the group that’s fighting it.
Men are half the world's population. If people can just dismiss, mock, ignore, and deny that half the world is affected by widespread and nuanced societal biases then what ground is there to be gained?
How can half the people on Earth be unworthy of consideration when it comes to their own unique struggles and predjudices?
Oh, I know. Just blame literally everything on some omnipotent force called "patriarchy" so you don't have to look inward and acknowledge other people have shit going on too.
Acknowledging male issues, discussing them and treating them seriously WITHOUT just playing the unironic "bootstraps" game is not ignoring or denying women's issues. Nor is it misogyny.
Yea I’ve been getting that energy for awhile now like there’s not enough nuance in the discussion of how men and women contribute to patriarchy then how it then works in minority communities.
As a black man you just gotta accept you a villain then move accordingly
@@WillieEarlSonI feel so much this as a trans man raised in a dysfunctional home who was never treated like a chick.
"You sell drugs?" Golden😂
You dating Griselda like it's nothing tho🤣🤣🤣🤣
34:20 This made me grin so hard, loved seeing yall lose it over that
Joshs statement on treating each other as human then taking that outword was beautifully said.
Great conversation yall 👏🏿
Yup because I could've stayed all night and laid in it. But, I was young and dumb and left. Then where would n*ggas be?🎯
The argument that misandry doesn't count as systemic if it's not being done by women seems very weird to me. "Systemic" here means baked into the society that everyone -- men, women, and nonbinary folk -- is born into and contributes to. Meaning that misandry can be enacted by men against other men and it's still systemic.
But also, the idea that a systemic issue caused by patriarchy is uniquely up to men to solve because "we created it" is also very weird. What man alive today "created" patriarchy? And don't women and nonbinary folk also contribute to and bolster cultural gender roles and power dynamics that are rooted in patriarchy? Because if the answer to that first question is "none", and to the second question is "yes", then why should it be exclusively on men to "solve" patriarchy? Oddly enough, that seems to attribute a sort of hyperagency to men that seems perfectly in line with the (false) claims of patriarchy (that men are the creators of and maintainers of culture as we know it, and that all societal power ultimately stems from and belongs to them).
They can’t give those allowances for some reason. 💁🏽♂️
I agree, it’s the same shit I be arguing with some feminist online as well.
It seems off to me that this system of patriarchy as we know wasn’t something black men help create here. While i get we have some very few benefits from being a man in America we do deal with misandry from multiple groups.
Also i think white women are heavily understated on how much social power they carry. White women tears will get a city block sprayed
"Hyperagency" is a great way to say it. I think that's very white supremacist in origin.
Then what's the solution? Who would be responsible for destroying patriarchal systems if not men?
This is a pretty defeatist argument you're making. Yes, most individual men going about their daily lives did not create patriarchal systems, but they do uphold them or at the very least benefit from them. Hence the onis would be on them (as a group, and some cases on an individual basis) to make changes toward more equitable systems.
Just because we all uphold gender roles or contribute to them does not make us all accountable. We are indoctrinated into the same society, hence we will become actors in it until we decide not to (and do the work associated with that). Women and other non-men can contribute to patriarchy, and even benefit to an extent, but that doesn't take away the oppression they face from patriarchy.
Misandry cannot exist without misogyny, and to assert that misandry is systemic because some men are missndrists is just incorrect. Misandry is a reaction to misogyny- it cannot exist without the oppressive structures of patriarchy.
Ahh yes. Alvin is back. Just popping in to say im hype to listen to this tomorrow
In addition to race, ethnicity, and nationality. Your economic status and physical appearance also register as factors, not even just like attractiveness, but if you're of a certain size and build you're seen as a threat or as a tool for manual labor to a lot of people. You pair those experiences with in many cases having almost exclusively women above you in management positions, even if not as the top but multiple layers between you and the top, it gets easier to understand how some men are less receptive to the approach many in this current wave of feminists take.
Issue with Alvin saying “it’s not misandry, it’s patriarchy” is while true, patriarchy here acts as more of an umbrella to power imbalances and hierarchy whereas misandry has a much more specific meaning to it. It’d be like saying wanting women to have their rights taken isn’t misogyny, it’s patriarchy
YES. I think in a lot of leftist/progressive discourse online lately, and possibly irl and in academic discussion but I can't confidently speak on that, i think "patriarchy" gets bandied around as a big umbrella for the way things are, like this big conglomeration of the societal condition, when we have men correctly pointing out uniquely men's issues and fishing for or trying to build the language to describe the areas of oppression they're noticing, and only getting the unhelpful return of "well that's patriarchy".
@@gregvs.theworld451I don’t know if I think it’s actually unhelpful, because the argument isn’t “that’s patriarchy so shut up” the argument is hey yeah feminists have been talking about this for a long time and many men have been angrily defending patriarchy. We’re already on this page that these issues exist and are fighting it/ talking about it. Would you like to finally join the conversation?” They addressed it on the podcast but you will find a lot more men who are willing to get behind the fact misandry exists and a lot less men willing to fight patriarchy. But they aren’t divorced from one another. Driving that home is very important. If men want to fight against misandry, realistically what does that look like? Is it not solidarity in fighting the patriarchy? I think there’s a difference between discussion between people who are already feminists and understand how patriarchy hurts men and then how certain language can be used to skirt responsibility. Misandry is colloquially treated as a flip side of misogyny, but they aren’t the same thing, based on who takes the brunt of responsibility in dismantling it.
@@judysm95This! I think it's more like patriarchy is at the root & women are tired of hearing "but mIsaNDry!" as often as we are.
@@judysm95I don’t think it’s that misandry is treated as a flip side so much so as it’s just a thing that men know is super common but goes unaddressed. I mean, I guess some men might suggest it is as big of a problem but that’s usually not the inference. And it’s both genders responsibility to end misogyny/misandry.
@@judysm95 The issue is that all too often "that's patriarchy so shut up" is exactly what people mean when they say this kind of stuff. Because what they really mean is precisely what Alvin said in the video, which is "this is something that men created, thus it's men's responsibility to fix it"; it's basically just like "men, stop hitting yourself"'.
And the problems with that thinking are that 1) the men who created patriarchy (if it even was JUST men) are not the same men living today, so no this isn't "self-inflicted", 2) men are products of their environment and their socialization just like non-men, so they aren't just choosing to act in harmful ways in a vaccuum anymore than the non-men who uphold patriarchy do. It's like we expect men to have this hyperagency to simply go against all of their cultural programming and the realities of their material conditions in a way that we don't expect of women or nonbinary folk, purely because they're men (which ironically seems like something born from patriarchal ideas about masculinity).
This phenomenon is boiled down to a common quip you hear often in these conversations that's like "when women have issues in society, we blame society; when men have issues in society, we blame the men themselves".
Y'all need to chop these takes up so I can spam my Instagram and tik tok feed with this art! Y'all spitting food for the soul on this episode!🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Bro said it's STFU in 2024😂
My son Finn had the books READY😂😂
Alvin the "patriarchy"
Oh, new episode!
59:21 Josh wanted that sh*t to hit so bad, we ask chuckled 😂
Eddie was cooking this episode.
The majority of voters in the US are women.... women don't want women in power either lmao😂😂😂😂
29:00
Feminism's greatest strength (it's blunt focus on how femininity and women are viewed and treated) is also one of its greatest points of contention - from outside looking in, it can really look like Feminism is incapable of talking about non-femme problems without doing so in relation to itself. Many people just think Feminism is incapable of talking about men's problems without making it about women.
The fundamental problem is that Patriarchy is mistaken to be exclusively a woman problem and thus, by extension, Feminism is only for women - some go so far as to paint it as anti-men, even. As a result, many men don't feel cared about and turn to reactionary ideologies that treat themselves as the antithesis of Feminism and men's problems as distinctly separate from women's problems - sometimes to the point of being unintentionally anti-woman.
OF course, the same fire that burns your house up will give you serious burns. And while it's fair to view the damage to your home and the damage to your body as different things, it would be disingenuous to ignore that they are different expressions/results of the same root problem
To be fair, feminism did start as a movement to highlight how femininity and women are treated and viewed, and a lot of feminists still treat the movement that way. Outside of theory book where you've got to hunt for male compassion from feminist authors like Bell Hooks, so often a lot of feminist discussion online, when it does speak on men's issues, speaks about men and masculinity as if it's a ailment that affects women and how to deal with the man problem. Imo feminism has made it readily clear that as a movement, generally speaking it isn't interested in talking about men's issues with an intent to help men and men are baring up the wrong tree if we expect it to, and a lot of feminists aren't shy to make that truth abundantly clear, and not usually kindly. I've thought for awhile now that men could really use a movement that catches on like feminism that speaks to men with compassion and empathy and speaks to them in a compelling way that makes them want to ally themselves with it, that is rooted in progressive values and has a focus on dismantling harmful hierarchies to raise up men, as well as being allied with feminism, while also being a movement where men can come to the table and talk about men's problems and how to deal with them from men's perspective for men.
I'll admit, while I think it's possible I am onto something in theory, I do recognize that language could come off as somewhat segregationist in the sense that it decouples the intersections of men and women's issues as though they're wholly separate when in fact there is a lot of overlapping intersection, and I know too well that a common pitfall that tends to crumble most men's movements like MRAs, MGTOWs, Manosphere, etc. before they can kick off and become big is starting with male sympathy (or at least grifting sympathy for the average man.), but then shifting blame to women or other minorities for the problems men face instead of the actual root of the problems. To that end, maybe the issue is that any movement doing this right, be it feminism or an actual progressive men's movement, would necessarily have to make men feel uncomfortable sometimes, which is a bummer since no one wants to feel uncomfortable and would prefer their feelings be spared, but perhaps part of the issue is that sparing men's feelings is sometimes incongruent with raising men and boys in society to be better. Still, I think if we could push past that, maybe insist men can get past this discomfort because we know they're strong and capable of doing so, we could have a men's movement dedicated to men that doesn't make the make mistakes of past men's movements while still speaking to men and standing in solidarity with and encouraging the standing up for marginalized voices.
Eddy was cooking here about the importance of labelling a problem -- 29:50
The conversation and comment section on the disparity of murder rates between BM and BW is highly depressing.
Western society has not been considered a pure patriarchy by definition for decades. That is, society or the government does not exclusively favor males to the exclusion of women. In fact, there are laws against such discrimination. Most of the negative effects on women attributed in modern times to patriarchy are often related to American capitalism. It promotes ambition and ruthless competition, workaholic behavior, punishes motherhood, leaves parents with very little social safety nets (such as healthcare and childcare), which often weighs more on women as the primary caregivers for toddlers. This capitalistic culture has led to a disproportionate number of individuals with narcissistic qualities in top-level management in many organizations, along with substance abuse, chronic diseases, and divorce. Additionally, heavily male-dominated professions such as those in science, engineering, and construction often command the highest salaries. However, in some cities in the US, women are starting to out-earn men due to their increasing levels of education.
There's this creator that calls men "XYs" in a derogatory way, and it always makes me cringe.
I feel like there's this reactionary sect of creators, pushing back against the red pillers, but instead of, oh I don't know, trying to bring people together? They've decided to just bash men the way (some) red pill creators bash women. It's really unfortunate.
Not trynna troll you or anything but does stuff like that genuinely bother you? I feel like the cultural climate ive seen around other men substantiates that lol
@@corduroycrook really, any rhetoric that paints a group of people with a broad brush, but especially in a negative way, bothers me. It's reductive, black and white thinking, and it sucks the humanity out of the group.
Men and women are people. Neither should be dismissed or dehumanized as a whole.
Just like Red pillers were a reactionary to Feminist media and content. People come together when they see they’re being attacked. Just like the idea of Kill all Men and media laughs of sexual assault and harassment towards men is downplayed for humor.
@@corduroycrook What justhearmeout said. Dehumanizing rhetoric effects all men. Holding that men need to fix a lot of their own issues and taking objection and offense to propaganda sold to an active audience that men are dangerous, violent evil, and not complex individuals and humans is something everyone should take issue with, but failing that men should take issue with, because who else is going to care about that?
And I fully acknowledge that this creator just is talking about may not be a big fish in the pond and that worthy of taking offense over, but I do think there is a valid concern to call out dehumanization when you see it instead of leting it fester and grow. If we claim to care about everybodies humanity, everybody includes males, white people, and cis people, obviously not to the same degree as oppressed minorities and ofc those humanities shouldn't take precedent over helping the disadvantaged.
why should it be the job of us to bring people together? why arent the redpillers tasked with stopping their bs and bring people together?
lmao loved this ep
Does bell hooks get a lot of hate relative to other feminists, or is she just more famous than the others and gets more visible hate?
It’s all patriarchy
That's not a thing
The cards are genius!!
Thank you to Alvin, I always either wholeheartedly agree with his takes or it makes me look at a topic differently and consider my position more deeply 💜 shout-out to Josh for that hilarious ‘you all know my track record on things like this’ 😂 thanks to Eddie, I laughed so hard at ‘my take is even worse than I thought’ (it was, I’m on the side of the 3 in the 3 v 1, but I respect your commitment) 🤣 thank you also to Finn, I know it’s always gonna be great if you guest star (pls do use Finn Diesel, ITS GREAT 💯)
ETA: I really do want to emphasize that Alvin’s idea of intersection being like possibly benign components getting combined is really accurate; white cis heterosexual man is also an intersection but none of those components that make up that intersection are a marginalized one; marginalization =/= intersection
55:31 I’m wheezing from laughing so hard
7:37 We know the girl in Tokyo
I remember that
The right to be recognized as a victim is a right denied to men on a gender basis
this one of those “pausing the podcast to respond to yourself because the all the hosts are missing it” episodes
What did they miss?
I swear this took me damn near 2.5 hours to get through cause I kept pausing to throw in my two cents haha.
Finn is officially a light skin KANG 👑
💀
The cards are cool as hell and the website looks dope!
Nice discussion.
I really disagree with your analysis of calling the fallout of men’s issues themselves results of patriarchy.
I think just like the guy who labeled a whole bunch of things misandry, these faulty analysis are a result of “semantic creep”; words which are capable of describing useful topics end but up being applied too broadly and use their power to describe reality. Calling all of those issues listed misandry just destroys the word.
In the same way “patriarchy” often loses its meaning when used as this catch all boogeyman to blame for everything. Being male does not mean I share anything of significance in common with the few rich or powerful men that send men to war, or to work dangerous jobs, or sentence them unfairly in court (+30% longer sentences for men than women).
Describing those systems as “patriarchy” is pointless as the line where the powerful and powerless is has nothing to do with sex.
Similarly, assuming that the male loneliness epidemic is due to men losing their privilege is also poorly thought out. Zero analysis just wave the magic want of “patriarchy” to explain it away.
The social and communal infrastructures that suit the male form of building bonds and socialization (walkable towns, third places, general communities) have vanished along with decreased career opportunities. These are socio-economic issues at their core but we will only acknowledge them as so when they start affecting women negatively… and will call that patriarchy too.
Men have also had to earn certain rights such as the right to vote along with not having to fight for better work conditions etc. It’s not at all as clean cut as men were given everything they have by default.
AYE!!! This is so dope! Def gonna get this card game!!
Wicked Echo on this pod
For every person?
@@WavingtheRedFlag Everyone had their moments except Josh. Then again he didn’t talk too much so I just might not have caught it
Even if the white woman whiteness matters more than her femaleness. You would still need to explain why black men are more affected by police brutality compared to black women. If it has something to do with their blackness. If so then why aren't black women facing the same levels of violence. And if it does have something to do with their gender. Then you would've to point out misandry effecting men on a large scale too.
Edit: Or even the reason why transwomen face more pushback than trans men.
We are affected more because we face gendered violence as BM and that’s an example of it. I’ve heard many a BW divester speak to enjoying that.
@@BlackOwnedDollarswe was kings🌝🍿
@@ReshonBryant Oh okay have a good day
@@BlackOwnedDollars you too king👗
BW are most likely to be killed by police of all women in the US. As in 1/5 of all women killed by police are BW and almost all were unnamed.
So her whiteness does matter.
I think a lot of the problems with testosterone are caused by the fact that (usually cis) men like myself aren't taught to handle our testosterone properly. Hormones are much more complicated than we give them credit for, and aggressive behavior can be caused by a lack of testosterone because you are taught to...deprive yourself in certain ways, if you catch my drift. I can speak from experience in that regard.
I tried to watch but geesh WTF was that.🤐🤔
47:34-47:45 D:
I'm not sure if that's the name of his ex or an old friend or something but he sound like he really missin' Dree.
36:30
Just wanted to say this was well done. With a good mix of goofs and gaffs.
We love you Alvin!!!!
Muh-san-dree
I don’t know how much feminist literature Eddy and Josh have read but a lot of what they were saying does get addressed by feminists , they mentioned bell hooks… she is very accessible and she does address this all very compassionately like Alvin said, maybe they have read her books but if not I just think she addresses a lot of the things they were saying really well
If feels like there’s a belief that all men benefit the same from patriarchy, like it’s tiers to this thing. A white man can get away with something a black man can’t, same for other racial groups.
We live in a white mans patriarchy if we being honest.
Yea honestly this discussion should’ve been longer cause to say we caused like the problem started in 2000 is crazy
22:00 the US guardian ideally, or any other one barring the UK one. UK guardian ain't shit, if you know you know #Hogwarts
On the misandry topic, to Eddie's point, I do think there are valid male issues that often to get talked down, at least online, that are valid. I think where me sticking point is re: the term patriarchy is that I often wonder if it's a fair word to use in a system that I don't think any man living today save for maybe the oldest and richest and powerful among us, actually had a hand in creating, and even to our corporate overlords it's only up to a certain point of so many decades in history. I don't deny a lot of men's issues are at the feet of men to solve, but I think the patriarchy term makes a lot of men today feel like they're personally responsible for how things suck right now, and I'd argue a lot of men are merely born into a long running system that they're victimized under, and any negativity given to the perception of men was given to them by their forbearers, not an active choice made by most young men today. Perhaps it'd be reasonable to offer the grace that while the young men of today aren't responsible for the situation men find themselves in in society at present, it is their job to fix it, and that's not fair and we should be pissed off at our ancestors and shitty traditional values for dumping this lot unto us that we didn't make, didn't ask for, and didn't want, especially as late stage capitalism makes the success we're told to value increasingly unobtainable. I truly hope that with more conversations like this, men can take some notes from feminism and, as feminists realized how their current lot sucked and aggressively rejected and pushed back against it, so too can men have a similar unified movement. Hell, there's a lot of angry men looking for who to blame for the squalor most working class poor find themselves in, it'd be delicious to see that anger, violence, and rage pointed at traditional values, Christian religion, and the uber wealthy.
I can understand your take, but I disagree. I think the whole point of naming patriarchy as the problem is to make clear what the actual problem is. Just like with racism, sure there is prejudice against white folks for instance, but racism primarily attacks black people. Just because no white person alive *created* this system, does not mean many alive dont perpetuate it, regardless of if its conscious or not.
The first step to solve a problem is to point out you have a problem, then the next step is to find the scope of the problem.
If you have a disease, you dont just look at the symptoms (coughing, runny nose, high temp, etc) and try to solve those, you have to identify what the disease is. Is it viral? Bacterial? Cancer? Only then can you adequately go about tackling the issue.
So by pointing out that all of these factors are part of the disease that is patriarchy, we can understand that we need a different strategy and approach (ie a systemic approach) then just saying its a bunch of unrelated issues, OR just tackling the 'modern' versions of the issue.
If you have an inherited disease, that actually tells you a LOT about how to solve it. It means that you *have* to look at the historical causes (ie the mutations and environmental factors that made this disease in the first place), and see how all of that manifests today. We should keep reminding people that patriarchy IS an old issue, but it was itself created and thus can and should be destroyed.
All that being said, patriarchy continues today precisely because a Lot of people (men and women included) refuse to even recognize the issue. They think its just the 'natural order' of things,.. and/or that its not real.
They may point out a few symptoms as problematic, but refuse to see or just ignore how all those symptoms come together.
The reason feminism has been successful at getting women to this point (not without issues ofc) is because they recognized the problems they were facing were all connected and tackled it at multiple levels: voting, domestic expectations, self expression, jobs, sexuality, etc. They had/have many failures of course, but at least they keep trying to address the wider issues alongside the individual.
If men want to do the same, then we need to actually recognize that all of these issues are interrelated, that simply blaming women will not solve it, and that we actually may need to recognize when we are part of the problem (like when men dont want to father their kids, or use violence as a primary response, or see women as sexual objects, or any number of things). Again, its not that All men do these things, nor even that men may not know when they are doing these things... the problem is when men actively refuse to even consider when someone is saying they are doing these things, or when they even view these things as 'natural' and 'good' rather than problematic.
I know this is quite long, so I'll stop here, but in order to REALLY address the problem of patriarchy, I think we will need to address how it all comes back to Hierarchy. In my research, that is the core of the disease that spawned patriarchy and pretty much all other issues.
But that's a whole other discussion.
@@elijahclaude3413 I read your comment, and I don't really see where we disagree. Only thing I might be a little iffy on is the argument of men participating is patriarchy just by existing as men in society, feels a bit original sin-ish and maybe that's just me being emotional but something feels off about the idea of telling men they perpetuate harm towards women on some level, just by participating in the system they were born in unwillingly and playing the game to survive, unless your argument is that hierarchy raises everybody in a way that we're taught to harm others before we might find the philosophy that encourages us to consider that this society isn't right or normal or the ways things are and wake up and commit to rejecting it, to which I'm totally on board with, yes, that's what I want men, and everybody, to do. I already acknowledged some issues are at men's feet to fix, but I do wonder if the pill would go down easier for guys if there was messaging that we didn't pick and choose the cultural toxicity that a lot of men believe in i.e. abandoning their kids, using violence to get what they want and maintain power, etc., but we can recognize those things are things a lot of men are raised up by long standing hierarchies to believe and to do, and so we need men to push back and reject those ideas. I'm fully on board with being honest about intersectional hierarchies and their source to dismantle them.
@@gregvs.theworld451 I appreciate you for reading all that! Lol. I'll try to be more concise.
It seemed like you were saying we shouldn't call a spade a spade when talking about patriarchy. My disagreement was with that, because I think recognizing what patriarchy actually is will help us immensely to finally dismantle it.
I do agree with you on the thrust of many of your points though, and I was going for the latter about how patriarchy works, However I do also think that we do indeed still participate in patriarchy even passively.
I think we need to get rid of this idea of whether or not you Choose to do a bad thing to consider that a bad thing.
The same thing applies to racism and capitalism.
Most people are not consciously racist, but the system we all live in is racist and it functions through the implicit and explicit racist practices, regardless of if you're doing so purposely.
Similarly for capitalism. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism precisely because the system functions through exploitation and pretty much everything you do makes you a participant, even unwillingly.
But recognizing all of this allows you to recognize the importance of taking down the whole system rather than just trying to 'fix' a certain part of it.
I think people have trouble swallowing this pill not because it's called patriarchy or even because it fashions them as participants... I think it's simply because that's all they know and they can't imagine other alternatives.
I think in order to really make this happen, we need to recognize the scope of the issue, and stop worrying about blame, and instead invite people to imagine what better alternatives can and should look like.
There's a reason why people flock so hard to reactionaries and alpha male content, it's not because they don't blame men for their predicament (they blame men all the time by saying you're being lazy or girly or whatever, and you should look max or buy my course or whatever instead).. it's because they offer alternatives that feel viable (even though they are not, esp not in the long run).
So, we need to offer alternatives that are Actually viable.
To sum, I think we need to recognize patriarchy as a terrible, inherited disease that we all suffer from in some way. It causes many terrible symptoms, some of which are worse than others.
But it is a disease caused by the virus that is hierarchy.
So to solve it.. to cure ourselves, we must recognize and dismantle all the various tools and systems that allow for imbalances in power between different peoples.
That means recognizing when you are putting pressure on a woman you're trying to date for instance, and knowing how to take rejection gracefully.
That means not calling the cops on a man for no reason and instead having a community to fall back on where y'all can resolve disputes peacefully.
That means not allowing your male friends to act like psychos and stalk their exes or spike drinks.
That means letting your son cry and feel his emotions and talk things out.
That means being open to the idea that straight men can wear dresses and people can identify as different genders and that's okay.
So on and so forth.
I did it again with the length, lol, but I just like thinking about stuff like this 😂
@@elijahclaude3413 I appreciate the alternative perspective on the resistance towards solidarity and fighting back against the system of hierarchy. So often most progressives I talk to on this issue just chalk it up to "patriarchy benefits men and men must want it otherwise they'd join us.", which I always found kinds of reductionist, vague, and not even necessarily true is the legion of angry, listless men who don't have the success they were told they would have by following the rules is any indication. To be blunt, I've never truly bought the line. That said, I have seen and can sympathize with people either believing this is the best we've got or can get, or afraid that dismantling hierarchy will make things worse for everyone, including themselves, or as you said can't imagine alternatives and are afraid to confront the idea.
It ain't out fault but unfortunately, it IS our problem. That kind of thing?
I don't fuck with this
Eddie was cooking Alvin 💯
The misandry conversation boils down to patriarchy harms men too. Patriarchy dehumanizes men too. Systemic misandry does not exist.
But couldn’t a person say the same about misogyny? Like women not having the right to vote wasn’t due to misogyny, it’s patriarchy! That’s a weird statement
@@PinocchioDread the comparison you’re making doesn’t quite fit.
@@PinocchioDreadYes what you said was true, in fact you can do the same about anything at any time any day of the week
@@alexish8183Why doesn’t it fit?
Patriarchy harms men.
The system harms men
Prejudice against men doesn't exist.
This are conflicting statements.
I just think people need to stop comparing misogyny And misandry how about we just all come to end them both like they’re both bad sexism against women is wrong and sexism against men is wrong like nobody should be treated bad because of their gender like it’s not our fault of the way how we were born is how God made us so we just all need to come to gather as on people and just in hatred period and bring love and empathy into the world and build a world where men and women have equal rights make sure both men and women is being treated equally like that’s the whole point of making the world a better place so all this comparing it needs to stop because when we do compare It keeps shit I’m going like we just need to solve the problem and quit trying to compare to which one is worse cause they’re both bad
Yoooooo @17:20 is spot fucking on!
God the streets needed Alvin back. He's usually the person I agree with the most for sure
Misandry definitely exists and is just as big of an issue as misogyny today.
Misandry is displayed in divorce court, domestic issues, modern dating, media, and other aspects of society.
Can you be more specific?
@@laurelgardnerI mean mans gave you four examples.
@BlackOwnedDollars I don't think u know what example means because dude didn't give examples. They don't make sense tho, because the justice system is run by males and the child support, men being run rough shod by courts in divorce court is just not true when looking at the stats. Statistically most people don't pay alimony and pay way less child support than is needed, unless it's a rich man. In domestic issues, it's also a myth because statistically guys are more likely to be aggressors in violent scenarios and the malignment of males in abuse cases is actually misogyny because it's predicated in the notion that males cannot be harmed by their intimate lartners. Example is Terry Crews and how he himself said he was more supported by women in his case. In modern dating, research literally says women are more likely to lower their standards for a male if he has healthy masculinity. That's why shows like King of Queens could exist. Because it is much more likely than a case of a less attractive woman with a more attractive man. Right now Terence Crawford is being encouraged to dump his longterm partner who also has 5 of his children, because she is less attractive, and it is not females leading that argument. In media, it's just also not true.
@@XaraK1King Of Queens is a great show, I love watching it, but let’s be for real. Women claim they’re settling and that sounds cute but where is the proof of it? What shows you that it’s the case? On the show KOQ, that is a couple who are essentially meeting each other at their own level. Carrie practices misandry all the time in demeaning Doug, yelling at him, hitting him and marginalizing him. He does the labor of love by letting her inept father stay in their house and her father causes all kinds of problems that he deals with. How is she settling? Same with Everybody Hates Raymond. He’s the major breadwinner and his wife castigates him constantly.
As far as Terence Crawford? You think his case is any different from Halle x DDG as well as Simone x Johnathan Owens? The answer is no. Women get in the internet and disrespect those men because they feel they should. They make arguments all the time to say those men aren’t good enough for those women with no proof or evidence as to how and why.
As far as media? Lol stop. The bent is always towards women and their upliftment as well as how they see things and how it should be.
Look at Maury, when the man was the father he was railroaded. The woman lies and shows he wasn’t? His desire to castigate her won’t be met with praise by Maury, but a desire to push understanding.
Doesn’t matter if the Justice System is run by males, if women still rush to use the power they believe they can use to run men through it. So yes, the brother did give you examples.
@@BlackOwnedDollars "Divorce court" is the most specific and still way too broad to do anything useful with.
I don't believe misandry exists. Misandry as per the definition is like reverse racism; it's a result of a status quo. I've never met a misandrist who didn't fit the definition without their core issue being the display/ramifications of patriarchy
But that’s the issue, while patriarchy is an umbrella, it does not nullify the ramifications it has on men and I might be reaching but this sounds like a complex of saying “misandry is just a reaction” which oozes a surface level understanding. Also the immediate juxtaposition with reverse racism only solidifies this as whataboutism
Nah it exists lol.
agreed
Ah "patriarchy" the ultimate scapegoat.
Misandry is about as real, as Black people being racist against the whytes. The power dynamics got to make sense to me, and with the way this world is set up- It ain’t making sense to me.. 🤷🏾♀️
It's because you see power dynamics as a binary rather than a network.
American Racism will put Rich Anglo Christian White Men at its center and the less of you are that the more hate you get from people who are closest to that. And everyone is programmed to do this even people who are the farthest from this center of power will hate people who are not the center.
This is how a Rich Black Man can shit on Poor White People, calling them white trash, and these people can hate on that man because he's Black.
And depending of the situation either of them can hold systemic power over the other. The rich black man using his wealth, and the poor white people using their whiteness as weapons. Most often whitnness will win over wealth but not always.
And that kind of infighting keep Rich White Anglo Christian Men at the center of the web because everyone who ain't them are too busy policing each other to unite and dislodge them.
Same goes with Patriarchy, it puts a kind of emotionally detached misogynistic manhood and a kind of submissive misogynistic femininity at it's center and will crush all other type of manhood, feminity and gender expression different from that. Tough it will prioritize crushing femininity first, but it will also crush manhood that doesn't maintain the misogyny of the system.
Hey guys, you don’t seem to be putting forth the same level of effort to making sure this is a thought provoking podcast as you were a year ago. I think that’s why the numbers are stagnant. Also, please bring Finn back to have the conversation that they came to have.
Every episode I bother to tune into, Alvin's misandry gives my eyeballs whiplash from the involuntary eyerolls.
He should just send an email blaming it on the patriarchy
It's extremely annoying.
His inability to see men as the victim of power is astonishingly misandric.
I was genuinely surprised at how callously he dealt with the issue of the male murder rate as one particular example. Like he actually brought up the "rareness" of murder as a way to downplay the severity of the disparity of men's and women's murder rates. I mean if women were the ones being murdered at 6 times the rate of men, I guarantee you wouldn't see feminists saying "ah, well it's not even that important really, because you see, murders are actually very rare".
@@yanggang7 facts.
You know what he would never say.
Black people being killed at 6 times the rate of white people isn't an issue because murder is rare.
It's such a dumb argument
😂😂😂
Thank you Alvin for being the voice of reason Misandry ISNT a thing and just a joke. It's patriarchy, and no men aren't oppressed by patriarchy either they experience consequences by willingly participating in it
thank you bc i was looking at the title of the video like 🙄 dont hype it
Men experience oppression regardless if they participate in patriarchy or not
Of course it isn’t a thing. Women by and large don’t have any power ever to do anything and whenever they do something wrong, they’re not actually doing it, it’s patriarchy.
Can women be willing participants in the patriarchy also?
@@BlackOwnedDollarsI can tell you didn’t even watch the video. They already addressed that women don’t have to have power for misandry to be real
What are the ways in which the 'Patriarchy' harms men?
Biggest has to be military conscription.
Just the pressure of public shaming for 'cowardice' leads to senseless deaths like in wars in Ukraine and Gaza
@@zainmudassir2964 that's not patriarchy, that's common sense. We wouldn't have much of a military if all the young folks went off TOGETHER.
@@martinvulu1848yeah, but my feelings🤣
@@martinvulu1848 Your statement is a classic example of misandry. All the patriarchal aspects that benefit women are discarded and not fully discussed. This causes an imbalance in the fight against patriarchy because it is hard to dismantle a system when you try to pick and choose what to keep. For example, most women are achieving financial independence equivalent or above most men, yet require that a male partner that pays most of the expenses in the home.
@@kilamoblack7532 no
This generation ends with us; women bring nothing to the table.
Let it rot
i spent a good two minutes of this very confused bc i hadn’t realized finn was trans😭 i was like sir how do you know all this who you been talking to???👀 whole time bro just has the insider knowledge bc he IS an insider and all i have to say is my brotha 🫱🏽🫲🏻