Timing Table - Building one for Boost [Pay it Forward Garage EP3]
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- čas přidán 28. 12. 2019
- I help a subscriber work through some timing issues on his car. Lets take a look at how you build an ignition table for boost. Enjoy!
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Due to factors beyond the control of ClevorBMF, I cannot guarantee against improper use or unauthorized modifications of this information. ClevorBMF assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. Use this information at your own risk. ClevorBMF recommends safe practices when working on vehicles and or with tools seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ClevorBMF, no information contained in this video shall create any expressed or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage, or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or from the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ClevorBMF. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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Appreciate you taking time to to help others, this is what it's all about fellow MOTORHEADS....Well unless your lining up with em lmao
Agree in general with the video, especially around E85 setup which allows more timing to be added; in general most turbocharged engines running on gas are timing limited due to knock which E85 will address with a higher octane value and reducing the charge temp due to alcohol content (just remember with E85 you need to change plugs to a cooler setting).
Also, max timing should occur at max torque for a given engine.
When you say max timing should occur at max torque, then should the timing numbers remain the same throughout the remaining upper rpm ranges? or should you drop some timing as the torque drops off?
@@tripphopper3374 when you are on a dyno, you continue to increase your timing till one of two things occur. 1) you get detonation/knock as you add timing but you are still seeing an increase in torque as you where adding timing. In this case, you either need to increase octane, or reduce timing and live with it. 2) as you start increasing timing on a dyno run you start to see torque fall off but you have had no knock. Where ever the increase in timing caused a reduction of torque is an indicator of max torque for that given setup. You daily back to the best timing for a given dyno run, and I normally reduce the timing by 0.5 to 1 degree less than the best timing to allow for some cushion.
this is so helpful thank you so much ive watched countless videos and no one explains it this well
Awesome, thank you 🤘🏻🤘🏻
Really good stuff. I have been reading everything about tuner studios trying to set up my system and this was by far the best information I have found! Thanks!
That’s awesome to hear, thanks for watching! Looking for specifics to do more videos so if there’s more you’re looking for and can’t find, let me know!
Nice video brother lot of numbers 😳 it’s awesome that your helping people out.👍👊🦊
Thanks man! Hope you’re well
good video thank you, just a top tip if you press the 2 arrows in the bottom left of the X and Y axis you can change the axis scaling and then interpolate all the table values to match the new axis scaling
Nice tip, thanks!
Thanks this going to help me alot
Awesome 🤘🏻
Great information! I Just put a turbo on my mustang and I'm using the micosquirt on it. I did get it up and running by myself but, I've been going to a dyno to get the tune right but, i hardly know anything about tuning it myself so, any info you put up helps! ;-)
That’s awesome! Thanks for watching!
I had to go by kpa vs psig if u use just psi it comes out different
The conversion isn’t exact, just gets you close lol
I will study this video
I've always heard max ignition timing should be at peak engine torque and then flatline from there to max RPM... I've never heard anyone say max timing should be at max RPM.
I’d say that depends a lot on the engine combo. There’s not a one size fits all for everything
Thanks for the video, probably the first one I've actually understood on this stuff. I've got a question though, probably very foolish one but I'll go with it.
I got an idea of what retarding and advancing the timing means and what it causes, but I'm not sure how it works and what terms are used after TDC.
I tried looking at some degree timings in different engines but those diagrams are not very detailed.
For example, let's say the exhaust valves open at 10 degrees after TDC, in this case, if you move it to 8 degrees you are effectively making the vavles open sooner, right, and is this again called advancing or a different therm is used ?
I hope my explanation is not too confusing, would appreciate if someone could shed some light on it, thanks.
So that’s actually a very great question!
First off, the valves are controlled mechanically by the connection of the camshaft and crankshaft via your timing chain. These events are not adjusted with timing. These are stationary unless you have an engine with variable valve timing (but I’ll assume you don’t).
Second, adjusting your timing controls when the spark is fired. If you advance your timing, you are firing the spark as the piston is coming up the cylinder. 10 degrees advanced would mean your piston is closer to TDC than if you’re firing it at 30 degrees advance. By advancing it more, you’re effectively giving the combustion more time to take place causing a bigger explosion and in turn more power. There is of course too much advance that can cause damage to the engine.
Hopefully that helped a bit? Let me know if you have more questions!
@@BMF_Garage I understood that too, thanks !
So WOT tables as you get higher in the rev range it gets less an less timing say 26 at 5k rpm an 18 degrees timing at 7k. Would " Advancing timing" be say take the 18 an add a degree to 19 or would it actually be 17 degrees. Great channel an if anyone can answer that question I'll redline my car in your name😂 thank you guys.
Advance or adding is increasing the angle before TDC that ignition occurs. So 20 degrees is more advanced than 15 degrees.
What do people do when starting with a blank timing table ? Do you put a value at 80-100 kpa max rpm and interpolate and adjust from there ? Then if you know what idle and cruise areas like you'd adjust ? I'm all over the place with sources on learning , I've emailed cobb some question but they directed me to hp academy. Not sure if I should sign up to a forum or what.
kpa is relative to atmospheric pressure. Roughly 85 kpa is equal to gravity or static atmospheric pressure. 85 kpa is typically what you will see with the car not running, or at wide open throttle with no boost. much below 30 kps is typically representative of a vacuum situation as in the car is in gear on decel with no gas applied. Around 40 kps is typical of a crusing situation. My suggestion would be to start at 20 kpa at the bottom and work your way up to 85 kpa in 5 kpa increments. Hope that helps. If you'd like some more direct assistance, use the video description links to contact me via one of the many social media platforms I on.
Normally I would be dropping a base map in and adjust from there Mr. Time
Is this the same concept with nitrous? Say I’m spraying 150 shot would I pull the full 6 degrees from where it comes on at 3500 to where It shuts off at with the window switch at 5700 rpm
To be safe, yes. Then you could add it back in a degree at a time if you get it on a dyno and verify it’s not hurting anything. Better safe than sorry!
Do you have a video on how to make the crank time less for a faster start? An example having a 4 sec cranking then run. To a somewhat instant start
Not specifically, but I can do that. It’s basically getting your air fuel on startup set properly. Adjusting cranking pulse and air.
Someones video said there is a wall wetting setting where it injects Dering the prim cycle..
But I couldn't find it. I also have the free version. I'm using the analyze on the log viewer. It takes for ever and it makes big changes.
Yeah, wall wetting is typically always used. Once key is turned on it’ll prime the system and stay injectors once. Usually no need to change that unless it’s not doing it. The cranking pulse is most important in my opinion for quick startup.
@@BMF_Garage is there any way I can message you?
Either here or via email brooks@bmfautomation.com
I take it this is for a turbo setup? How would it differ for a supercharged ignition map?
I wouldn’t do much different with the map for a supercharger. Really just depends on the type of blower and how much power you want to make. Generally you can take some timing away down low to mitigate the instant torque and make traction better.
@@BMF_Garage I'm running an Eaton m45 Mini supercharger in my 1.6 Miata. Making 11psi.
so much timing ..damm.. I run mine on 26 - 27 deg NA ..this must be the bad gasoline we have here in CostaRica ..if I go higher, engine starts to ping ..but decked block 0.001, Flat top pistons with 58cc chambers heads.. ??!
Higher compression it sounds like.. aluminum heads?
@@BMF_Garage yes...
@@Diondo26 Yeah, lower timing, higher compression and gasoline makes sense for the lower timing.
Twin Turbo csb Vems Efi i am new starter i am a carborator gai!!!Problem eith The Crank Trigger.Mapping problem To reach in the idel. When I When I give Hard trottel to lean Lamda 17.0 thats tou Lean.!!! We have trobel with The Crank Trigger tou strong signal.THE ECU DONT LIKE THAT.WAITING NEW KABEL COMING SOON..sorry spell like hell!!!
This is for a K20 with normal pump gas?
Yeah, good rule of thumb for most vehicles
Ι have turbo my BMW 318i e46 ,i m working 8 psi with 10:1 compression ratio and i retard all the ignition map 8 degrees ,my in the revolution of engine i have about 8 degrees and 15 degrees at the top , is very linear and smooth my afr is at 11.3-11 at the top ,but i feel need some advance , what do you say?
Best thing to do is put it on a dyno so you can see the results of changing timing. If it doesn’t pick up and power when you advance the timing, go back to where it was.
Mano me ajuda por favor ..
Timing seams way to high under boost to me.
Really just depends on the combination. I run 22-28 degrees up top with 20 psi of boost on E85 with 8.5:1 compression
@@BMF_Garagemaybe good to clarify this is for e85 in the video. This amount of timing under boost is dangerous for pump gas
@ghj1502 the video is about how to build a timing table not a copy paste table to use. Every combo is different and has different needs based on parts used. If people aren’t smart enough to use this information in the way it was intended, I can’t do anything about that. This is exactly why there’s a disclaimer in the description of all my videos.
Hi o have a mustang 351 Windsor with a gt80mm turbo can u please help me with a timing table I’m using an Accel gen 7
I can make suggestions for sure but I don’t have software to do anything with those. Ideally I’d like to know more about an engine combo… compression, bore, stroke etc…. NA, I’d expect to see about 32 degrees timing at 6k rpm and about 24 at 2400 rpm with a linear slope between the two.. take away a degree of timing for every point of boost you add as you go up the table.
It’s always best practice to test your results on a dyno and verify your timing by looking at the plugs after a pull.
I agree yet my map is up to 7k rpm 16x16 table the motor is standard compression 9.5 upper part is tfs aluminum street heat heads 580 cam 280 probe industries manifold 4 inch old design victor je intake Efi 160 lb injectors I basically need a timing map so I can drive the car to the dyno not to boost just to drive n/a
I appreciate your help I followed u on afr and I got that pretty good cause of ur videos
@@tonymontana4349 18 degrees at idle, 24-26 cruising, 32-34 up to 7k under no boost, and take away timing above ambient air pressure to be safe. You should be able to edit the table yourself with those numbers and get it driving really well. Those are the numbers I’m using
The part that you have timing going from high to lo towards the ended g and in the middle range u have higher timing in other words can I use that exact table and be able to drive the car
I know this is an old video, but why so much timing at cranking and idle?
Cranking parameters would correct your first row, but 19deg idle seems high?
19 is lower than the timing it came with lol really just depends on your engine. Most small block fords are happy right around 17-19 degrees at idle
my old audi loves 19-21deg at idle. don’t know why but it just keeps purrin
example, let's say we found 14 degree of timing is best number in high load at 200 kpa from 4500 RPM to 7000 RPM. For the rest below of each cells does it mean we need to add more advance all way down..?????
As we all know that as the RPM increase we need to advance the timing, conversely as load or air flow increase, we need to retard the ignition advance.
Waiting to someone answer 🙂…..
I'm confused all around, too many numbers
Definitely a lot of numbers... overwhelming at first but stick with it and it gets easier
@@BMF_Garage I don't even know where to start. I'm at 36 degrees all across the board lol
Definitely don’t want that lol you’ll get into issues with that much timing everywhere
@@BMF_Garage thats why I need help lol. Its carb
So how’s your timing controlled? You have an msd box or something?
Gaydar confirmed. Milli Vanilli