This was one of the few books my bishop wanted me to read to fulfill my repentance in my teens. I lied and said I had. He believed me. That's when I realized they don't have decernment.
Same experience. Was given the book by my bishop and parents. Said I read it. Never did. Heard about how absolutely fucked up the book was and thought it was divine providence that I didn’t read that shit lol.
@@johnhorner1969 haha :) it probably would have made my exit go alot faster, had I read it. Talking to the bishop about sexual sin, as a teenager, was already so uncomfortable.
I realized they didn't have decernment when I was a fresh faced youth because they said I had such a bright testimony but then when I got diagnosed with depression and started expressing myself differently than before they stopped saying it even though my testimony was still as strong (then)
I realized they didn't have to gift of decernment when I would go for interviews and be told I was so faithful when I had been reading gay fanfiction until 2 in the morning the night before
My BYU roommate married a man who didn’t kiss her at all until they were sealed. His ambition was to be an apostle. Didn’t take long for her to realize he was nuts.
My dad used to call that book, "It's a Miracle If You're Forgiven". I used to call it, "No Miracle. No Forgiveness." It was standard issue to missionaries in his day. It was illegal contraband in my mission 30 years later. Yesterday's doctrine is today's apostasy. 🤷🏻♂️
I was a distraught, ashamed young girl who confessed to my bishop that I had sex for the first time with a returned missionary. He gave me the miracle of forgiveness to help me feel better. I read it cover to cover and thought Oh My Gosh! I’m equal to a murderer?! I was devastated.
The explanation of the seriousness of fornication and adultery in the Miracle of Forgiveness is based on the scriptures and the Miracle of Forgiveness does not teach that they are as serious as murder but are next to murder in seriousness. The world does not agree and people who do not know the scriptures are shocked to learn how serious this sin is.
@@jzwillows have a very strong relationship with Jesus, despite living with my children’s father. We aren’t married and he is an atheist. The only thing Jesus has ever asked, by his own admission, was love one another. “This commandment (singular) I give to you, love God and love one another”. Anyone can have a relationship with Jesus. Sex, masturbation, and alcohol or coffee use does not affect that. The only thing that does is the lack of love for others.
I was also a Kimble fan. I had solidarity with him as a short, soft-spoken man. He gave me hope that I could be something cool like a prophet. But now I just see him for a what he is... a small man. I've turned out so much cooler than a prophet.
My dad gave this to me when I told my parents I watched porn. Luckily i got super bored in the first chapter. Once i left the church, and i read it out of curiosity. It would've ruined my innocent teen bi heart who was already really suicidal. I felt awful for having such strong sexual feelings for as long as i can remember. I know it was because numerous csa by a multitude of people.
This book has haunted me for years. I felt like I might as well give up because I am never going to be forgiven to the point that I hoped the church wasn’t true. I was afraid to die and deal with everyone being able to watch my life like a movie. I’m so glad that I have seen the light!! 2020 was good for something. I’m 49 now and need therapy to deal with the loss I feel for wasted years that I could have been happy and enjoying this life.
It's hard to look forward, trust me I know, but there's so much more to come. You can have better relationships now, better friends, more fulfilling hobbies, and the peace that comes by living your life how you want rather than the way you were told to live. You can be happy; imagine all the people who don't find themselves where you are, miserable their whole life and then just dead. You have the chance to break the chain.
I was given this book by a female church member at 20 years old in 1988 while I was recovering from cancer surgery and the birth of my oldest son. Mormons know nothing of personal boundaries smh That book was the first on the pyre when I torched my cult stuff. Peace.
@@jbrabec6811 i was simultaneously dealing with Thyroid Cancer and an out of wedlock baby...did no one think to send me to counseling? And i don't mean the lds version of laycounselors, but an actual trama therapist. There is such a thing as Hypothyroid Psychosis and my life WAS a mess. The Relief Society probably thought this book would cure me, go figure. My own mother doesn't see anything wrong with any of it. That was one catalyst for my leaving, the absolute cluelessness.
Omg one of my mission comps blamed me for sinning and that is what caused him to have a wet dream. Lol. Yeah I was super naive. Was he dreaming about me lol. He was cute so hehe eh
I knew that any book given to me by my mother would be toxic. I was given it because of sex before marriage. I was treated so badly that I actually believed I was not worthy.
Barbara, what's gross to me is i would have expected a piece of trash book like this from my mother, but it was some random church member lady that i barely even knew. I never cracked the cover BECAUSE I WAS A 20 YEAR OLD RECOVERING FROM CANCER SURGERY and didn't want to be bored to death after just surviving cancer. Now that i know what was actually written, i'm glad i didn't read it in such a vulnerable state. the audacity of these general authorities and church member dupes that push this garbage.
I am so glad I was not a Mormon. I wouldve grown up thinking I was "ruined" since I was 2 years old. I can not even comprehend how that would have panned out in a Mormon community. Those poor kids.
As I understand it, Paul had to have been married at least at one point because he was once a member of the Sanhedrin, and one of their requirements was that you be married. It has been theorized that he was possibly widowed or even divorced (gasp)! My daughter and I believe that he was very probably "ace" (asexual). That is why he recommended his position ("gift") to others. It does simplify a lot of things -- even if it doesn't seem like much "fun"! It probably wasn't much "fun" for his wife, however!
When I was a teen I was told to read this book by my bishop after it was found out that my cousin had be molestating me for years. What a great way to treat a victim to tell them they committed a sin as bad as murder for being a victim.
So creepy how they can't even say the actual words and have to censor anything sexual by using vague references and euphemisms. Shows how utterly uncomfortable they are with the whole thing.
The concept of free agency is so odd when I watch videos like this. This book in particular is SO stifling, you’re not allowed to make decisions for yourself, not really, because we are all so dumb and sinful that we need to be directed to make the right choice in EVERYTHING we do. How is that free agency? A book and religion that totes “this is the only way, the one true way, everything is else is wrong”, has essentially made all the choices for you. Follow the prophet. Hold to the rod. Read scriptures daily. Listen to the spirit. I could go on. We are essentially trained to submit and trust anyone but ourselves. And when you don’t live up, and no one does because we’re human, the “consequences” that accompany shame and guilt (needless shame and guilt, mind you) are damaging! So glad I got out. I’m happier than I’ve ever been.
Overheard an incredibly critical conversation about this book at BYU the other day, among people I’m pretty sure are actual believers (admittedly hope they’re not). It seems like the damage still being done by this book is more legacy and among the older generation, I’m legitimately hopeful that most of my peers are firmly opposed to almost everything Kimball said
One of my good friend carried this book with him on mission and that was a little over 2 years ago. But it was said to be a banned book that missionaries are not encouraged to read in our mission. So it’s still out there causing damage but hopefully not as much
There is a theory that Paul might have been gay. Paul suggested that all sex separated people from God, and that if people couldn't manage to be celibate then it would be best to have sex within the bonds of marriage. That said, Paul also expressed a lot of self loathing, and since there were also some aversive things about sex, some have suggested that maybe Paul was gay, and struggling with accepting himself as he was. It's just a theory, but it is interesting.
There are some very gay story in the bible :D My example would be Jonathan and David. Like - Jonathan said to David, he loves him like he loves his own heart. David said after Jonathan's death, that his love was for him better and more important than the love of any woman. And we know, that David was a womanizer (so at least he was bi or something else). Jonathan gave everything up for David even while he had the birth right to the throne, and he also gave up his protection for David. When they said goodbye to each other, they not only renewed their proposals to each other, but they cried and kissed each other. And since in that time crying not seemed to be manly, and they were supposed to be as manly as possible this also is a sign, that this was a very deep love between them.
Paul had a thing for gay bdsm and that’s why he talks bout bondage nd master slave relations. The crucifixion narrative gave him a resurrection thinking about Jesus tied up.
He was also in a messianic death cult. Why get attached to anything when God will have his kingdom on Earth any day now. Just you wait. It's certainly happening. SOON! I PROMISE! And then Jesus got murdered and that was it. Instead of saying they were wrong and Jesus (if he even existed) wasn't the son of God, they doubled down and left this mess. Don't get involved in death cults kids. They all end badly.
The church has a very hateful and aggressive stance towards same sex relations because of their own guilt. The biggest open secret in the church is how many downlows are in very high positions. Those that speak with the most hatred are those that are the most repressed and guilt ridden elderly men.
The more I learn about how other people absorbed religion as children, the more I realize that I had the opposite of scrupulosity! I wonder if there is a word for that?? I have vivid memories of sitting in Church at a young age each week, beginning around 8, thinking how everything the people were saying was just complete trash. I played the role of the religious kid. I said and did the right things, but it felt like I was playing pretend. I never realized until the last year or 2 that others actually believed all of this stuff so deeply and I feel terrible that I didn't express my doubts to my church friends because I feel like I might have helped some of them feel less traumatized by the experience. Either way I'm very grateful to creators like you guys who are being vulnerable and exposing the issues in religion!
Trauma and shame from reading it as a teen? Yeah, that applies to me. Looks like on my most recent read through of it, which was not long before I left the church, I stopped on page 236.
OMG Sam! The whole " Well...I'm already smoking weed,( and I wear this Yin&Yang ring that my friend Mariah said means "69") so...might as well take up hard drugs!" Was literally my reasoning for becoming a methamphetamine user at the age of 13! It wasnt even called meth then, it was called "crank" and it was like...this orangish-yellow heavy powder. It was so gross. I remember being scared to try it, but the stripper who was obviously very wise and successful in the eyes of the 13 year old she was offering crank to said, "Oh it's fine. Nobody has ever died from it. You're thinking of cocaine, dummy!" How foolish of me to be scared my heart might stop. But yeah, I'm like...I'm already a horrible drug user, and she just said their are no negative consequences from this shit...IT'S ON! I'M A BAD GIRL NOW! 😂 My mom caught me, too! The neighbors heard me bragging to a friend when their cordless phone accidentally transmitted our cordless phone. Of course, there was nothing she could do, so...she did absolutely nothing. At least the one positive take away is that my mom makes me look like a phenomenal parent. Hahaha. I have a 14 year old now, and I cannot even conceive of something like that happening. I always know where my kid is, where she's at, and how she's doing. She knows about my past drug use. I didnt know if I should tell her, but she's really rational and we are super close. I want her to trust her judgement and really understand why the decisions she makes are good for her or not. If she messes up, I want her to feel safe telling me so I can help her get through it. I kind of feel like if I don't use my past as a learning opportunity, then it's a waste. Might as well turn it into something positive
You two are vibrant and wonderful, I am glad you see this trap for what it is. To turn inward and become conscious is wonderful, I wish you the most of this. Blessed be 🙏
We had to get special permission from our Mission President to read this shit-storm of a book. It seemed like almost every time a missionary read it, he/she would end up confessing some benign sexual sin and be sent home. And so goes the shame-dependency cycle with the Church.
I had a copy on my mission. Made me feel horrible. Another missionary (recently converted before his mission) borrowed the book from me and immediately became unconsolably depressed (and probably in shock). After he met with the mission president, we were all discouraged from reading that book. He was fine after meeting with the president (no idea what the president told him, but he served as AP later). I held on to both the shame and cognitive dissonance from being told not to further read the words of a prophet while on my mission.
When was this? It used to be one of the four books missionaries were expected to take on their mission besides the scriptures. It is a complete collection of hot garbage. Possibly one of the worst things ever written by a supposed mouthpiece for god.
@@johnhorner1969 My mission was in 2012. It was by no means a required reading. We were only allowed to purchase books/movies from the church distribution center. In compliance of the rules and out of total missionary boredom, I think I had a copy of every church produced text and film sold in the Philippines.
I'm one of the generations which grew up with this book shoved into my face by my leaders, especially my stake president. Total jerks made that way by books and the teachings within. So glad to have it all behind me!
Lol MURDER is their only reference point for something terrible. It's because they've forced people to relinquish personal judgement in order to prevent independent thinking. I mean, I get it. If their teachings were based on empathy and progressive solutions - that would seriously complicate their ability to brainwash otherwise perfectly intelligent people. It just reminds me of when I was little, and I thought 100$ was probably the most money any one person had. 100$, man. That's...insane wealth. So whenever my mom didnt want me to get something at the store, she'd say, "Mandy, that's 100$!" 😯 oh shit! I'm sorry! I had no idea! Lol
When it comes to "all sin being equal", I had more discomfort/cognitive dissonance over coffee than I did alcohol and sex. Still working on the why; possibly because alcohol/sex were more less common so I heard more "horror" stories about drinking coffee.
Getting baked and browsing the DI was one--or two, I guess--of my favorite inexpensive college student activities. A great way to spend a winter afternoon.
I purchased this book when I joined. It didn't resonate with me and on the bookshelf for years. I can vaguely remember reading it. Church books dumped on the church doorstep about church door step 25 years ago.
This explains why over 30 years later my mom still holds guilt for getting pregnant as a teenager and why finding out that I hadn't "waited for marriage" devastated her so much. Hell's cesspool. Damn.
I was given the book so many times as a kid but I didn't read it or realize it was a passive aggressive move 😂😂 the boys in our ward weren't allowed to talk to me because I was mostly out from the time I was 11. I could hear how awful people talked about me at church and my defiant behind just was louder about it all and then I rolled in pregnant at 18 and unwed 😅 but wouldn't trade that for anything. That baby is now 14 next month and the COOLEST person to exist. So the peer pressure at church made me take a totally different route 😅
Broke but I’ve been dumping pollen on tar and double fisting trauma art and research with my system; I missed the stream but on the last one I either did ask or thought about asking about like, strange dangerous mormon resources people outside the cult would probably never encounter. thank you lovely people 🥰 I’m nevermo but you have both been so helpful with my faith crisis and developing a spirituality i can be comfortable with. Lowkey love everything you do :)
- the trauma response that I’ve heard most from csa survivors, washing yourself constantly and never feeling clean, being both actively taught and denounced as a failure by men we historically know are virulent child predators Welp
Ok, the way that Joseph story is taught, the emphasis is put on the wrong parts. The infidelity is far less important than the fact that the woman is going against Joseph's consent. Which is a reversal of what normally happens, but no less fucked for it.
That is so true! Now that you said that I realize that every time there was a lesson about that there was never any discussion about the fact that he was being sexually abused and that consent matters! For both men and women! Incredible.
I have a theory that most leaders of the church don't have a strong enough grasp of seggs as being consensual to understand the difference between that at SA or r*pe. Explains Potiphars wife and Alma's son corianton.
Kimball was the worst. I remember a conference where he was helped to his seat, and another man next to him would reach over once in awhile to wipe the dribble from his mouth. As this was going on, someone else stoop and read something Kimball had supposedly written the day before. Kimball was mentally gone. It was such a joke.
I remember having to write a mini book report for each chapter of this book as punishment, alongside transcribing the for strength of youth pamphlet from the very beginning to end :-/
Little children know how to forgive each other -- it's not always easy, but it's not always a herculean feat of strength, either. It's a "miracle" if you can forgive someone you really fucking hate. Pretty sure that's the breed of forgiveness this church runs on. You'll find forgiveness in the lds church where you find all the other miracles......you won't.
53:27 I love how that guy took a story about sa (because Joseph was her husband's *slave* and couldn't really consent) just into a story about how women bad and seductive. smh
Let me tell you something about this rotten, good-for-nothing book. In 2016, I was raped at BYU-Hawaii but I didn't know it. My mom told me she thought I was raped, but didn't believe her. She referred me to a bishop, who she previously informed she believed I was raped but he ignored her. This bishop had me read this evil, nonsensical book and it traumatized me more than my sexual assault. I documented my thoughts onto a journal, like my bishop requested. When I presented it to him, he accused me of only reading this book to get his endorsement to attend BYU-I, since I waited until the last moment to read it. He refused to give me my endorsement. Weeks later, he finally agreed to give it to me... but not my temple recommend. This church is not true... God is true.
@@leahtheanimationfan40 It was an extremely traumatizing experience. To answer your question, I grew up thinking rape was like someone jumping out of the bushes at night and sexually assaulting you. I never imagined it could happen by someone that I trusted and cared about. I told myself that I didn't fight back hard enough, even though I said no multiple times and resisted. Additionally, the church only taught me about the law of chastity and not about sexual assault. So, since I didn't think what happened to me was the definition of rape at the time, I thought I broke the law of chastity.
Well tanner and Sam. Visited the remodel temple in Mesa AZ today. What a great job they did. It another sunny day in the valley. As for this book, it’s a doesn’t help the church mission and not making all to come to temple some day. Keep on praying for better people to help deliver a message of hope and not be obsessed with such a champagne issues.
I read that miserable dreary thing a few months before my mission. Kimball was the prophet (profit) at the time, and I literally thought it was equal with scripture. I felt so much more unworthy and filthy after I read it than I did before. I had to mentally shove my reading of that book into a mental basement and move on. Never read it since that time, never encouraged anyone to read it and now, I mostly remember that Cain is big foot and very tall. 🦧 Years later when I attended Evergreen in Provo, we laughed about this book and what a 💩show it is.
I’d love to see you guy take in ‘Sex is like an Apple’ by Brad Wilcox. I think of it like Miracle of Forgiveness for kids… also fun fact… it was the talk that got purchased by Covenant Books, made into a ‘talk in tape’ and helped really get his name out there as a ‘youth leader/speaker.’ Seriously, just fuck whomever made that purchasing decision. The world might have otherwise been spared the last 20+ years of his ‘wisdom,’ not to mention his rising in rank through church leadership.
I know it's a lot longer but would you consider doing a video on Doctrines of Salvation? I heard some batshit things about it on my mission but don't want to read in myself
Even in mainstream Christianity the view in the 90's (and still in many places) was that if it felt too good or made you too happy then it must be wrong. But if you were miserable you must be on the right track. During my teens I literally thought that I was actually supposed to be unhappy
Christians have a thing for suffering. It's really gross. I guess when your central figure is a literal human sacrifice who was tortured and suffered your whole group outlook gets pretty warped.
I agree that the 'woman caught in adultery' shouldn't be taught as instant forgiveness from Jesus. Some people get trapped in abusive relationships because they're shamed into perpetually 'forgiving' all the garbage from the abuser on the basis of "you're a bad Christian if you don't". The "don't throw stones if there's any sin in you" being a misused tool to accomplish this. Thus, the abused plays the role of doormat and enabler. I find forgiveness, trust, judgement etc. being taught in an unhealthy way quite a lot. I can't claim to truly know what any of them are anymore, though. All I know is that they should all be measured and used in such a way to get both parties onto "the most excellent way" - whatever that may be. Forgiveness must not be permissiveness; 'repentance' should be a process of healing, growing and rehabilitation. Can that be achieved by a flagellating shame-fest? Appropriate shame equal to the wrongdoing. Fix the wound, don't jab your finger in it and poke around. *Thus endeth my rantiness for today*
I think true forgiveness is understanding that we are all the products of our genetics and experiences acting out whatever conditioning we’ve had installed in our brains up to that point, but it doesn’t mean not holding people accountable for harming others.
@@ZelphOntheShelf Ah, thanks for your reply. Very nice of you. I like your definition. I share those feelings, i think. "But for the grace of God, there go I" - wouldn't i act differently with a different upbringing and script? I've still got some way to go to fully understand forgiveness though. I used to hold the book you critiqued as a personal standard, but now find myself unpicking some of it from my personal beliefs. Thank you both, peace and love to you.
But what I noticed they don't have a problem with white male Mormons dating outside their race or marrying "Lamanites" but the white Mormon women marrying outside of their race is a problem. I've seen that first hand.
In 1976, a couple of missionary boys showed up at my house. "You boys want a beer? It's hot out." They declined. So, I hit 'em straight out. "What's this about not letting Black people in your church?" Hem, haw. They can be members. "Yeah, but they can't be priests, huh? What's the sons of Ham bullshit." They begin to get uncomfortable. I crack open another beer. "What's Spencer Kimball got against 'em? He a racist?" Um, revelator. Prophet. "C'mon, you guys! Is he a racist?" I was beginning to get perturbed. Uh, we gotta go. Yeah, see ya.
I started reading this a few months ago to hate on it/critique it/see how bad it is but then realized that was a waste of time bc it’s truly so horrible
I have an idea! You guys should do a video about remote viewing. I think maybe you guys should learn remote viewing or get someone who is very good at remote viewing to remote view to the past and see what really happened during Mormonism history and Joseph smith. Truth is stranger than fiction…
Ever since your Finnegan's Wake video, all the recent videos, visually are all "fuzzy". This is annoying watching. Can you change that at all -- get back to a better, clearer picture or somehow get a new camera? I think many of us would appreciate that!
Yes Trauma for me as a teenager/young adult. That book was awful , made me physically sick. I think that was one of the first signs for me God was not involved with the Mormon prophets . Made no sense to me any Universal intelligence would have anything like that said it's creations.
They had something like that in like the 80s or 90s. The leaders of the Church issued a statement that said only missionary position for procreative sex and was quickly ignored
When i was a little kid my pet hamster gave birth and than proceeded to eat most of her litter.. apparently that's a thing that happens in nature! Makes the "it's unnatural" argument pretty ridiculous... I've seen what's "natural" and it's not anything to aspire to 😂
i recently saw a mormon share a photo of some birds with a caption like “all nature testifies of the divine role of families.” like, those birds are polyamorous and known to kill their weak offspring….🙄🙄🙄
This was one of the few books my bishop wanted me to read to fulfill my repentance in my teens. I lied and said I had. He believed me. That's when I realized they don't have decernment.
Same experience. Was given the book by my bishop and parents. Said I read it. Never did. Heard about how absolutely fucked up the book was and thought it was divine providence that I didn’t read that shit lol.
@@johnhorner1969 haha :) it probably would have made my exit go alot faster, had I read it. Talking to the bishop about sexual sin, as a teenager, was already so uncomfortable.
@@a-ny9647 same. Fucking traumatic talking about beating off with a random 70 year old man.
I realized they didn't have decernment when I was a fresh faced youth because they said I had such a bright testimony but then when I got diagnosed with depression and started expressing myself differently than before they stopped saying it even though my testimony was still as strong (then)
I realized they didn't have to gift of decernment when I would go for interviews and be told I was so faithful when I had been reading gay fanfiction until 2 in the morning the night before
My BYU roommate married a man who didn’t kiss her at all until they were sealed. His ambition was to be an apostle. Didn’t take long for her to realize he was nuts.
Are they divorced now?
@@ChristopherSadlowski They are divorced and both remarried. He’s not an apostle, BTW, which he blames on her.
My dad used to call that book, "It's a Miracle If You're Forgiven". I used to call it, "No Miracle. No Forgiveness." It was standard issue to missionaries in his day. It was illegal contraband in my mission 30 years later. Yesterday's doctrine is today's apostasy. 🤷🏻♂️
I was a distraught, ashamed young girl who confessed to my bishop that I had sex for the first time with a returned missionary. He gave me the miracle of forgiveness to help me feel better. I read it cover to cover and thought Oh My Gosh! I’m equal to a murderer?! I was devastated.
The explanation of the seriousness of fornication and adultery in the Miracle of Forgiveness is based on the scriptures and the Miracle of Forgiveness does not teach that they are as serious as murder but are next to murder in seriousness. The world does not agree and people who do not know the scriptures are shocked to learn how serious this sin is.
@@jzwillows I found the ✨cultist✨
@@theeight-roadwanderer6286 Come unto Jesus.
If it makes you feel any better, contrary to what Mormons might have you think some guys like bad girls. We feel like we can save them.
@@jzwillows have a very strong relationship with Jesus, despite living with my children’s father. We aren’t married and he is an atheist. The only thing Jesus has ever asked, by his own admission, was love one another. “This commandment (singular) I give to you, love God and love one another”. Anyone can have a relationship with Jesus. Sex, masturbation, and alcohol or coffee use does not affect that. The only thing that does is the lack of love for others.
I was also a Kimble fan. I had solidarity with him as a short, soft-spoken man. He gave me hope that I could be something cool like a prophet. But now I just see him for a what he is... a small man. I've turned out so much cooler than a prophet.
Hell yeah you have!
Yes, and your “ priesthood authority “ is bigger than his was
My dad gave this to me when I told my parents I watched porn. Luckily i got super bored in the first chapter. Once i left the church, and i read it out of curiosity. It would've ruined my innocent teen bi heart who was already really suicidal. I felt awful for having such strong sexual feelings for as long as i can remember. I know it was because numerous csa by a multitude of people.
This book has haunted me for years. I felt like I might as well give up because I am never going to be forgiven to the point that I hoped the church wasn’t true. I was afraid to die and deal with everyone being able to watch my life like a movie. I’m so glad that I have seen the light!! 2020 was good for something. I’m 49 now and need therapy to deal with the loss I feel for wasted years that I could have been happy and enjoying this life.
I felt this. I used to pray to God why did he teach me about the gospel when I could have lived my life and then got baptized before I died
Me too… Therapy 2x a month! Ugh 😣 but I love my therapist and am seeing a lot of progress.
It's hard to look forward, trust me I know, but there's so much more to come. You can have better relationships now, better friends, more fulfilling hobbies, and the peace that comes by living your life how you want rather than the way you were told to live. You can be happy; imagine all the people who don't find themselves where you are, miserable their whole life and then just dead. You have the chance to break the chain.
I was given this book by a female church member at 20 years old in 1988 while I was recovering from cancer surgery and the birth of my oldest son.
Mormons know nothing of personal boundaries smh
That book was the first on the pyre when I torched my cult stuff.
Peace.
@@jbrabec6811 i was simultaneously dealing with Thyroid Cancer and an out of wedlock baby...did no one think to send me to counseling? And i don't mean the lds version of laycounselors, but an actual trama therapist. There is such a thing as Hypothyroid Psychosis and my life WAS a mess. The Relief Society probably thought this book would cure me, go figure. My own mother doesn't see anything wrong with any of it. That was one catalyst for my leaving, the absolute cluelessness.
Omg one of my mission comps blamed me for sinning and that is what caused him to have a wet dream. Lol. Yeah I was super naive. Was he dreaming about me lol. He was cute so hehe eh
!!!!!!
😁😊😁
Hahaha. If you would have been less attractive he wouldn’t have had wet dreams. Totally your fault dude lol. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😬😬😬😂😂😂
that's a flex lol
I had one of those about a companion….but I’m asexual
I knew that any book given to me by my mother would be toxic. I was given it because of sex before marriage. I was treated so badly that I actually believed I was not worthy.
Barbara, what's gross to me is i would have expected a piece of trash book like this from my mother, but it was some random church member lady that i barely even knew. I never cracked the cover BECAUSE I WAS A 20 YEAR OLD RECOVERING FROM CANCER SURGERY and didn't want to be bored to death after just surviving cancer. Now that i know what was actually written, i'm glad i didn't read it in such a vulnerable state. the audacity of these general authorities and church member dupes that push this garbage.
I am so glad I was not a Mormon. I wouldve grown up thinking I was "ruined" since I was 2 years old. I can not even comprehend how that would have panned out in a Mormon community. Those poor kids.
As I understand it, Paul had to have been married at least at one point because he was once a member of the Sanhedrin, and one of their requirements was that you be married. It has been theorized that he was possibly widowed or even divorced (gasp)! My daughter and I believe that he was very probably "ace" (asexual). That is why he recommended his position ("gift") to others. It does simplify a lot of things -- even if it doesn't seem like much "fun"! It probably wasn't much "fun" for his wife, however!
Little known Spence Kimball fact: "Hell's Cesspools" was the name of his secret Metal band.
90% sure that Spencer Kimball touched his little factory at least once while reading the story of Potiphar's wife. That was steamy!
His VERY little factory….
When I was a teen I was told to read this book by my bishop after it was found out that my cousin had be molestating me for years. What a great way to treat a victim to tell them they committed a sin as bad as murder for being a victim.
I’m so sorry, that’s awful. 💜💜
So creepy how they can't even say the actual words and have to censor anything sexual by using vague references and euphemisms. Shows how utterly uncomfortable they are with the whole thing.
The concept of free agency is so odd when I watch videos like this. This book in particular is SO stifling, you’re not allowed to make decisions for yourself, not really, because we are all so dumb and sinful that we need to be directed to make the right choice in EVERYTHING we do. How is that free agency? A book and religion that totes “this is the only way, the one true way, everything is else is wrong”, has essentially made all the choices for you. Follow the prophet. Hold to the rod. Read scriptures daily. Listen to the spirit. I could go on. We are essentially trained to submit and trust anyone but ourselves. And when you don’t live up, and no one does because we’re human, the “consequences” that accompany shame and guilt (needless shame and guilt, mind you) are damaging! So glad I got out. I’m happier than I’ve ever been.
Overheard an incredibly critical conversation about this book at BYU the other day, among people I’m pretty sure are actual believers (admittedly hope they’re not). It seems like the damage still being done by this book is more legacy and among the older generation, I’m legitimately hopeful that most of my peers are firmly opposed to almost everything Kimball said
One of my good friend carried this book with him on mission and that was a little over 2 years ago. But it was said to be a banned book that missionaries are not encouraged to read in our mission. So it’s still out there causing damage but hopefully not as much
My son who just served a mission 2017-2019 in Argentina was NOT allowed to read MoF. I was super happy his MP was opposed to it.
There is a theory that Paul might have been gay. Paul suggested that all sex separated people from God, and that if people couldn't manage to be celibate then it would be best to have sex within the bonds of marriage. That said, Paul also expressed a lot of self loathing, and since there were also some aversive things about sex, some have suggested that maybe Paul was gay, and struggling with accepting himself as he was. It's just a theory, but it is interesting.
There are some very gay story in the bible :D
My example would be Jonathan and David. Like -
Jonathan said to David, he loves him like he loves his own heart. David said after Jonathan's death, that his love was for him better and more important than the love of any woman. And we know, that David was a womanizer (so at least he was bi or something else).
Jonathan gave everything up for David even while he had the birth right to the throne, and he also gave up his protection for David. When they said goodbye to each other, they not only renewed their proposals to each other, but they cried and kissed each other. And since in that time crying not seemed to be manly, and they were supposed to be as manly as possible this also is a sign, that this was a very deep love between them.
Paul had a thing for gay bdsm and that’s why he talks bout bondage nd master slave relations. The crucifixion narrative gave him a resurrection thinking about Jesus tied up.
He was also in a messianic death cult. Why get attached to anything when God will have his kingdom on Earth any day now. Just you wait. It's certainly happening. SOON! I PROMISE! And then Jesus got murdered and that was it. Instead of saying they were wrong and Jesus (if he even existed) wasn't the son of God, they doubled down and left this mess. Don't get involved in death cults kids. They all end badly.
@@blondequijote😅 hehe
The church has a very hateful and aggressive stance towards same sex relations because of their own guilt. The biggest open secret in the church is how many downlows are in very high positions. Those that speak with the most hatred are those that are the most repressed and guilt ridden elderly men.
The more I learn about how other people absorbed religion as children, the more I realize that I had the opposite of scrupulosity! I wonder if there is a word for that?? I have vivid memories of sitting in Church at a young age each week, beginning around 8, thinking how everything the people were saying was just complete trash. I played the role of the religious kid. I said and did the right things, but it felt like I was playing pretend. I never realized until the last year or 2 that others actually believed all of this stuff so deeply and I feel terrible that I didn't express my doubts to my church friends because I feel like I might have helped some of them feel less traumatized by the experience. Either way I'm very grateful to creators like you guys who are being vulnerable and exposing the issues in religion!
Probably the most “thrown in the trash” book from Deseret Book !
Trauma and shame from reading it as a teen? Yeah, that applies to me. Looks like on my most recent read through of it, which was not long before I left the church, I stopped on page 236.
Oooo I can’t wait for this one. I got it as a teen because I was a big, ol’ sinner but had undiagnosed ADHD so I never was able to really read it
OMG Sam! The whole " Well...I'm already smoking weed,( and I wear this Yin&Yang ring that my friend Mariah said means "69") so...might as well take up hard drugs!" Was literally my reasoning for becoming a methamphetamine user at the age of 13! It wasnt even called meth then, it was called "crank" and it was like...this orangish-yellow heavy powder. It was so gross. I remember being scared to try it, but the stripper who was obviously very wise and successful in the eyes of the 13 year old she was offering crank to said, "Oh it's fine. Nobody has ever died from it. You're thinking of cocaine, dummy!" How foolish of me to be scared my heart might stop. But yeah, I'm like...I'm already a horrible drug user, and she just said their are no negative consequences from this shit...IT'S ON! I'M A BAD GIRL NOW! 😂 My mom caught me, too! The neighbors heard me bragging to a friend when their cordless phone accidentally transmitted our cordless phone. Of course, there was nothing she could do, so...she did absolutely nothing. At least the one positive take away is that my mom makes me look like a phenomenal parent. Hahaha. I have a 14 year old now, and I cannot even conceive of something like that happening. I always know where my kid is, where she's at, and how she's doing. She knows about my past drug use. I didnt know if I should tell her, but she's really rational and we are super close. I want her to trust her judgement and really understand why the decisions she makes are good for her or not. If she messes up, I want her to feel safe telling me so I can help her get through it. I kind of feel like if I don't use my past as a learning opportunity, then it's a waste. Might as well turn it into something positive
You two are vibrant and wonderful, I am glad you see this trap for what it is. To turn inward and become conscious is wonderful, I wish you the most of this. Blessed be 🙏
1. This looks like it was filmed in the 1990’s
2. Tanner got some Anthony Kiedis vibes going on.
This book was first published in '69. This guy had fucking on his mind 24/7.
OB SESSED
We had to get special permission from our Mission President to read this shit-storm of a book. It seemed like almost every time a missionary read it, he/she would end up confessing some benign sexual sin and be sent home. And so goes the shame-dependency cycle with the Church.
!!!!
I had a copy on my mission. Made me feel horrible. Another missionary (recently converted before his mission) borrowed the book from me and immediately became unconsolably depressed (and probably in shock). After he met with the mission president, we were all discouraged from reading that book. He was fine after meeting with the president (no idea what the president told him, but he served as AP later). I held on to both the shame and cognitive dissonance from being told not to further read the words of a prophet while on my mission.
When was this? It used to be one of the four books missionaries were expected to take on their mission besides the scriptures. It is a complete collection of hot garbage. Possibly one of the worst things ever written by a supposed mouthpiece for god.
@@johnhorner1969 It was in 2014/2015. I am so sorry for everyone who was basically required to read it.
@@johnhorner1969 My mission was in 2012. It was by no means a required reading. We were only allowed to purchase books/movies from the church distribution center. In compliance of the rules and out of total missionary boredom, I think I had a copy of every church produced text and film sold in the Philippines.
I'm one of the generations which grew up with this book shoved into my face by my leaders, especially my stake president. Total jerks made that way by books and the teachings within. So glad to have it all behind me!
Hey guys great stream. Love you both!!
Sam’s whole outfit makes this high quality 😩👌
Excellent, keep up the good work
Lol MURDER is their only reference point for something terrible. It's because they've forced people to relinquish personal judgement in order to prevent independent thinking. I mean, I get it. If their teachings were based on empathy and progressive solutions - that would seriously complicate their ability to brainwash otherwise perfectly intelligent people.
It just reminds me of when I was little, and I thought 100$ was probably the most money any one person had. 100$, man. That's...insane wealth. So whenever my mom didnt want me to get something at the store, she'd say, "Mandy, that's 100$!" 😯 oh shit! I'm sorry! I had no idea! Lol
When it comes to "all sin being equal", I had more discomfort/cognitive dissonance over coffee than I did alcohol and sex. Still working on the why; possibly because alcohol/sex were more less common so I heard more "horror" stories about drinking coffee.
Getting baked and browsing the DI was one--or two, I guess--of my favorite inexpensive college student activities. A great way to spend a winter afternoon.
Tanner your impression of Spencer is so damn funny, Sam you catch the mysoginy in this stuff so fast! Keep it up! Love you guys!
Not me getting a prayer and Bible devotional app ad on this video. LMAO
I took it for granted but I gotta say you guys are really good at doing live.
that’s so sweet! thanks. we will keep doing them 😊
I was told I HAD to read it in order to be able to go on a mission!!!
An hour of you two to help me get ready for class?! Happy Wednesday to me😊
I purchased this book when I joined. It didn't resonate with me and on the bookshelf for years. I can vaguely remember reading it. Church books dumped on the church doorstep about church door step 25 years ago.
This explains why over 30 years later my mom still holds guilt for getting pregnant as a teenager and why finding out that I hadn't "waited for marriage" devastated her so much. Hell's cesspool. Damn.
'holds guilt' on you for getting pregnant as a teenager or for herself for getting pregnant as a teenager?
@@clarkthompson1585 Both really. But I got pregnant *after* marriage.
You guys make me laugh! Love your content and snarky comments. : D
I was given the book so many times as a kid but I didn't read it or realize it was a passive aggressive move 😂😂 the boys in our ward weren't allowed to talk to me because I was mostly out from the time I was 11. I could hear how awful people talked about me at church and my defiant behind just was louder about it all and then I rolled in pregnant at 18 and unwed 😅 but wouldn't trade that for anything. That baby is now 14 next month and the COOLEST person to exist. So the peer pressure at church made me take a totally different route 😅
Awesome. Been waiting for this. Thank you. 🙂Also can't wait for fun of Jonny Lingo. 😆
I used to feel so guilty for not reading this book because I hated reading 😂 now I'm infinitely grateful that I never read it
I was never even given this book and I'm so glad. But I always felt guilty for not reading my scriptures because I hated reading
Even having no prior experience with it, I cannot say that I'm a fan of that book. Jeez Louise. My heart goes out to all of you survivors. 💙
Fun facts my first suicide attempt was after reading this book because I thought I was So Unworthy and Beyond fixing
Ahhh that’s so sad :(
@@ZelphOntheShelf well thanks to you guys and Jimmy smile I was able to escape so I appreciate it
Broke but I’ve been dumping pollen on tar and double fisting trauma art and research with my system; I missed the stream but on the last one I either did ask or thought about asking about like, strange dangerous mormon resources people outside the cult would probably never encounter. thank you lovely people 🥰
I’m nevermo but you have both been so helpful with my faith crisis and developing a spirituality i can be comfortable with. Lowkey love everything you do :)
This kind of shit is why I’d skip past hitler to go back in time and kill Constantine
- the trauma response that I’ve heard most from csa survivors, washing yourself constantly and never feeling clean, being both actively taught and denounced as a failure by men we historically know are virulent child predators
Welp
Kimball has definitely Likened the scriptures unto himself and pondered them at length.
At least the Joseph story.
you guys look very good in this one for some reason
Ok, the way that Joseph story is taught, the emphasis is put on the wrong parts. The infidelity is far less important than the fact that the woman is going against Joseph's consent. Which is a reversal of what normally happens, but no less fucked for it.
That is so true! Now that you said that I realize that every time there was a lesson about that there was never any discussion about the fact that he was being sexually abused and that consent matters! For both men and women! Incredible.
He sounds like the Mormon equivalent of Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
I have a theory that most leaders of the church don't have a strong enough grasp of seggs as being consensual to understand the difference between that at SA or r*pe. Explains Potiphars wife and Alma's son corianton.
Thank you for this I needed this I hate him for that book :’(
Kimball was the worst. I remember a conference where he was helped to his seat, and another man next to him would reach over once in awhile to wipe the dribble from his mouth. As this was going on, someone else stoop and read something Kimball had supposedly written the day before. Kimball was mentally gone. It was such a joke.
I once had a Mormon tell me Game of Thrones was tantamount to porn.
So happy to see no thumbs down!... this book was absolutely on my parents bookshelf; it still is. I'm glad I never read it.
Take it and throw it away. You’ll be doing them a favor. I doubt they’ve ever read it if it’s still in the shelf.
@@johnhorner1969 oh they've definitely read it. My mom has probably read it more than once. They have all those trash books.
I remember having to write a mini book report for each chapter of this book as punishment, alongside transcribing the for strength of youth pamphlet from the very beginning to end :-/
Little children know how to forgive each other -- it's not always easy, but it's not always a herculean feat of strength, either.
It's a "miracle" if you can forgive someone you really fucking hate. Pretty sure that's the breed of forgiveness this church runs on.
You'll find forgiveness in the lds church where you find all the other miracles......you won't.
53:27
I love how that guy took a story about sa (because Joseph was her husband's *slave* and couldn't really consent) just into a story about how women bad and seductive. smh
Let me tell you something about this rotten, good-for-nothing book. In 2016, I was raped at BYU-Hawaii but I didn't know it. My mom told me she thought I was raped, but didn't believe her. She referred me to a bishop, who she previously informed she believed I was raped but he ignored her. This bishop had me read this evil, nonsensical book and it traumatized me more than my sexual assault. I documented my thoughts onto a journal, like my bishop requested. When I presented it to him, he accused me of only reading this book to get his endorsement to attend BYU-I, since I waited until the last moment to read it. He refused to give me my endorsement. Weeks later, he finally agreed to give it to me... but not my temple recommend. This church is not true... God is true.
So sorry you went through this 💜💜💜
@@ZelphOntheShelf Thank you, that means a lot
@Dean Martinson I would like to check out that kind of church
@@quantumwasabi that sounds like a really traumatic experience reading this book. No offense intended, but how did you not know you were raped?
@@leahtheanimationfan40 It was an extremely traumatizing experience. To answer your question, I grew up thinking rape was like someone jumping out of the bushes at night and sexually assaulting you. I never imagined it could happen by someone that I trusted and cared about. I told myself that I didn't fight back hard enough, even though I said no multiple times and resisted. Additionally, the church only taught me about the law of chastity and not about sexual assault. So, since I didn't think what happened to me was the definition of rape at the time, I thought I broke the law of chastity.
I had a stack of these books given to me as a member. I used them as a side table.
Well tanner and Sam. Visited the remodel temple in Mesa AZ today. What a great job they did. It another sunny day in the valley. As for this book, it’s a doesn’t help the church mission and not making all to come to temple some day. Keep on praying for better people to help deliver a message of hope and not be obsessed with such a champagne issues.
I read that miserable dreary thing a few months before my mission. Kimball was the prophet (profit) at the time, and I literally thought it was equal with scripture. I felt so much more unworthy and filthy after I read it than I did before. I had to mentally shove my reading of that book into a mental basement and move on. Never read it since that time, never encouraged anyone to read it and now, I mostly remember that Cain is big foot and very tall. 🦧
Years later when I attended Evergreen in Provo, we laughed about this book and what a 💩show it is.
I’d love to see you guy take in ‘Sex is like an Apple’ by Brad Wilcox. I think of it like Miracle of Forgiveness for kids… also fun fact… it was the talk that got purchased by Covenant Books, made into a ‘talk in tape’ and helped really get his name out there as a ‘youth leader/speaker.’ Seriously, just fuck whomever made that purchasing decision. The world might have otherwise been spared the last 20+ years of his ‘wisdom,’ not to mention his rising in rank through church leadership.
I know it's a lot longer but would you consider doing a video on Doctrines of Salvation? I heard some batshit things about it on my mission but don't want to read in myself
I loved Tanner's Kimball impression.
Even in mainstream Christianity the view in the 90's (and still in many places) was that if it felt too good or made you too happy then it must be wrong. But if you were miserable you must be on the right track. During my teens I literally thought that I was actually supposed to be unhappy
Christians have a thing for suffering. It's really gross. I guess when your central figure is a literal human sacrifice who was tortured and suffered your whole group outlook gets pretty warped.
Would be useful as a firestarter or to use as a backup to toilet paper. Same with the BOM.
I agree that the 'woman caught in adultery' shouldn't be taught as instant forgiveness from Jesus. Some people get trapped in abusive relationships because they're shamed into perpetually 'forgiving' all the garbage from the abuser on the basis of "you're a bad Christian if you don't". The "don't throw stones if there's any sin in you" being a misused tool to accomplish this. Thus, the abused plays the role of doormat and enabler.
I find forgiveness, trust, judgement etc. being taught in an unhealthy way quite a lot. I can't claim to truly know what any of them are anymore, though. All I know is that they should all be measured and used in such a way to get both parties onto "the most excellent way" - whatever that may be.
Forgiveness must not be permissiveness; 'repentance' should be a process of healing, growing and rehabilitation. Can that be achieved by a flagellating shame-fest?
Appropriate shame equal to the wrongdoing. Fix the wound, don't jab your finger in it and poke around.
*Thus endeth my rantiness for today*
I think true forgiveness is understanding that we are all the products of our genetics and experiences acting out whatever conditioning we’ve had installed in our brains up to that point, but it doesn’t mean not holding people accountable for harming others.
@@ZelphOntheShelf Ah, thanks for your reply. Very nice of you.
I like your definition.
I share those feelings, i think. "But for the grace of God, there go I" - wouldn't i act differently with a different upbringing and script?
I've still got some way to go to fully understand forgiveness though.
I used to hold the book you critiqued as a personal standard, but now find myself unpicking some of it from my personal beliefs.
Thank you both, peace and love to you.
But what I noticed they don't have a problem with white male Mormons dating outside their race or marrying "Lamanites" but the white Mormon women marrying outside of their race is a problem. I've seen that first hand.
I really want more of this content. Please read horrible Mormon books (like the Charly series). pls pls pls
In 1976, a couple of missionary boys showed up at my house.
"You boys want a beer? It's hot out."
They declined.
So, I hit 'em straight out.
"What's this about not letting Black people in your church?"
Hem, haw.
They can be members.
"Yeah, but they can't be priests, huh? What's the sons of Ham bullshit."
They begin to get uncomfortable.
I crack open another beer.
"What's Spencer Kimball got against 'em? He a racist?"
Um, revelator. Prophet.
"C'mon, you guys! Is he a racist?"
I was beginning to get perturbed.
Uh, we gotta go.
Yeah, see ya.
I started reading this a few months ago to hate on it/critique it/see how bad it is but then realized that was a waste of time bc it’s truly so horrible
That’s the pot calling the kettle black
I have an idea! You guys should do a video about remote viewing. I think maybe you guys should learn remote viewing or get someone who is very good at remote viewing to remote view to the past and see what really happened during Mormonism history and Joseph smith. Truth is stranger than fiction…
Could you please cover that mic next time as it's making me have unholy thoughts! 😅
Kimble said rape was murder.
I love how baked the video quality is haha
Ever since your Finnegan's Wake video, all the recent videos, visually are all "fuzzy". This is annoying watching. Can you change that at all -- get back to a better, clearer picture or somehow get a new camera? I think many of us would appreciate that!
It’s because they’re live streams and we can’t afford expensive streaming software!
@@ZelphOntheShelf Got it! Will of course still watch your unique and helpful podcasts!
It was a banned book on my mission (early 2000s)
Every Christian needs an intermediary (or broker) to aid in their eternal salvation, and to confess to.
He reminds me of Frollo from Hunchback. Sexually repressed and taking things WAY too far.
"Always lawyer up before you speak to God." 😂
Haha my mission president told us not to read it while on our mission, he said it’d just make us depressed
This book gives me so much fucking anxiety
My Dad tried to push this book on me.
This is the same who said inter racial marriage is sinful and should not be allowed.
Yes Trauma for me as a teenager/young adult. That book was awful , made me physically sick. I think that was one of the first signs for me God was not involved with the Mormon prophets . Made no sense to me any Universal intelligence would have anything like that said it's creations.
the Catholics told me this!
Menstruation is murder, too--the egg dies because it wasn't fertilized. 😳
How does this work for a woman?
If I remember right my mission president wanted me to read this I didn't tho.
I'm waiting for the conference talk about pegging...
They had something like that in like the 80s or 90s. The leaders of the Church issued a statement that said only missionary position for procreative sex and was quickly ignored
According to that Woody Allen film, it actually is. Only one sperm survives if it leads to pregnancy.
Can u please upload your vids in 1080p plz plz plz
We haven’t figured out how to do this with streaming without buying expensive software! If anyone has any advice…
@@ZelphOntheShelf use OBS :)
When i was a little kid my pet hamster gave birth and than proceeded to eat most of her litter.. apparently that's a thing that happens in nature! Makes the "it's unnatural" argument pretty ridiculous... I've seen what's "natural" and it's not anything to aspire to 😂
i recently saw a mormon share a photo of some birds with a caption like “all nature testifies of the divine role of families.” like, those birds are polyamorous and known to kill their weak offspring….🙄🙄🙄
@@ZelphOntheShelf birds DO famously abandon their offspring if they detect outside interference, i can see why they like birds 🤦