What Joseph Smith’s predatory polygamy *actually* looked like (Lucy Walker)
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#mormonism #cults #polygamy - Hudba
53:59
I believe that by “every drop of scotch” Lucy meant what my auntie Kath meant when she said “he got my Irish up,” meaning the arousal of the legendary ancestral Celtic empire resisting temperament, so she’s saying that she felt the heat of the indomitable part of her rising up in outrage.
Thank you so much for sharing this! It always seemed so ironic that we believe the story of a 14 year old boy who sees God and Jesus but overlook the words of a 14 year old girl’s experience with coerced underage marriage
My 14 year old aunt got married when she was 14 back in 1948
@selfimprovement.1925 Okay, but to another teenager or to an adult twice her age?
And lots of men gripe all day about how society exists to keep them from talking about their feelings. Right.
@@unicorntamer2207 also under the condition of damnation threat?
@@selfimprovement.1925 One of my maternal great-grandmothers got married when she was around 14 or 15...her husband was 20.
"Every drop of Scotch" is probably Lucy referring to having Scottish (known as 'Scotch' at the time) heritage - i.e. she's saying her Scottish blood made her brave and defiant.
Ooh thank you!
Came here to say this, yeah, she was Scottish
The Scots are fiery and stubborn people indeed.
I came here to say this.
That was my interpretation as well.
When you read in your ancestor's journal that your great-great-great grandmother was a 14yo polygamist bride... The surprising fact was that both parties didn't want to marry each other, but did so at the direction of Brigham Young.
When people are put under highly stressful circumstances that they can't escape, their brains will literally flip a switch that causes them to become the advocates of the abuse they were suffering. This happens because if you can't escape the pain, you NEED to find a way to make it feel like it was worth something. Because your only other option is to realize that you went through this stuff simply because of someone who wanted to do wicked things, which simply breaks you down to nothing. Your mind forces you to find meaning and purpose in it to keep you functioning, and to protect you. The church actively employs this tactic in the mission field, in the secrecy of the temple, in it's polygamy, etc
I just got sterilized, the best version of that for women which is called a bisalp (bilateral salpingectomy). My fallopian tubes were removed. It was SO MUCH easier than an IUD placement, or any of the other procedures related to my fertility that I've had. The scars are tiny and disappearing fast, recovery was a cinch, and my hormones are completely unaffected as my ovaries and other organs were left in tact. I highly, highly recommend it.
Getting mine in two weeks, so glad to hear this! It wasn't my first choice but for various reasons it's the best one for me.
@@thereseenders6899 It's been the best for me too. The peace of mind is everything. Best tip I received prior to mine: Be sure to keep a heating pad on your shoulder for the first 18 hours after surgery. The referred pain that hits there snuck up on me, and while it's not much worse than strong menstrual cramps, the heat eased it a lot. Good luck!
@@Larissa-eo3pt if it's the same shoulder pain as post laparotomy drinking a can of coke weirdly helps too
I was going to ask if getting one's "tubes tied" would be the female analogue to a vasectomy. Having them removed sounds like it would be far more effective than cauterization.
@@justinwatson1510 It is far more effective, as there's a chance that cauterized/clipped tubes can heal and regain their function. I don't think that procedure (tubal ligation) is done very often any more for that reason.
Maybe this is odd, but it really comforted me when Tanner broke a little, id already been bawling for like five minutes at that point. This shit is heartbreaking!
I cried too, just so distressing to hear her experience and that some members would say it's ok, ShE HAd a SPiriTuAL ExPerIeNce!!! Like, you better believe she had to conjure up one after being threatened!!!
About Sam's question at around 25:00 , not all people who victimize children are necessarily attracted to their victims. Like rapists of all kinds, they don't exclusively target people who they are attracted to, they target people who are vulnerable, who they can more easily victimize, and get away with doing so, because it's primarily about opportunity and gratification, not sincere physical attraction. Usually, predators will have "a type" or a preference in appearance or age, but this often comes secondary to the attributes of a child you laid out, about their ability to successfully groom them. That's also a pattern you can see in Keith Ranieri, who abused and groomed women of many ages, and continued this abuse into children, in part because older, more experienced women were leaving him, he escalated his abuse tactics towards older women he was abusing, and also seemed to begin predating on younger women, for the exact reasons you lay out earlier in the video, the younger the manipulation begins, the harder a time victims have of breaking free.
Also, just a note, the time menstruating people are most fertile or most likely to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy is not immediately after the onset of puberty. Most have irregular periods during this time, and, as they are still growing and developing, they are at greater risk of miscarriage and pregnancy complications, low birth weight, etc.
So true - when you choose someone to victimize by violence you don't necessarily choose someone you are attracted to. It's the same with sexual violence. It's about the power to abuse someone, the feeling of control and importance. Victimizing kids especially is a taboo and breaking a taboo is a special kind of power rush. To be able to groom them and to get their parents to willingly consent to what you are about to do to their child. To be able to get away with the victimization of kids.
Thanks also for the point about kids being easy targets - manipulative people tend to be insecure cowards and a lot of them also are lazy. So kids are easily managable to make them cater to your every need and do so long term.
100% agree. it's often more about power dynamics and control than sexual attraction.
Totally true. I think it's also important that in patriarchal cultures, what men are taught to value in women isn't personality, or maturity, or emotional connection, or agency. Men aren't taught to seek relationships that involved meaningful emotion connection, it's about what you've said, power and control. Men are taught to see women as property and as signs of status to other men, and in a lot of cases younger women/girls are seen as assets in that way. Heck, we can still see it in our own culture, with the way women/girls are shown in ads/on TV etc, they're valued for appearing young, vulnerable, controllable, and lacking in agency/personality - pretty childlike, but also sexualised, some scholars call it 'paedophile culture'. Older women are seen as harpies, the "old ball and chain", all that shit, because they're not seen as having the same "value" (I hate even phrasing it like that, just so gross and incel-y) as younger women/girls - and older women often have more agency, wisdom, and ability to stand up for themselves because they've got more life experience. Even though most men won't ever go as far as these awful abusers, there's still that cultural undercurrent that teaches them that women aren't there to connect with, they're there to have power over. It's one of the reasons so many straight women are starting to choose single life over relationships, because even after all the work done by feminists, heteronormative culture makes so many relationships with men super difficult for them.
Too many people think that since babies are born everyday, and have been being born everyday for thousands of years, it’s not a big deal. They usually have no idea that the US maternal mortality ratio in 2018 was 17.4/100,000 pregnancies. 660 maternal deaths, 60% of which could have been prevented. The US ranks dead LAST among ALL industrialized countries. America is #1…for maternal mortality.
In developing countries, complications from pregnancy & childbirth are the LEADING cause of death for girls aged 15 -19.
Yes, I think it`s about teenagers being easier to control and to mold, than grown women.
Some of the FLDS literally have meetings when there is a strong-spirited girl and marry her off when she is 14 to have her under control and get her to have children to lock her down in the group and in the life she is supposed to lead.
If you marry them off as teenagers they don`t have the opportunity to develop their seperate personality and are easier to control.
Deciding to not have kids/sterilize: invites contention, people argue, "why not?" bs
"This bloodline ends with me": implies a higher duty, maybe a vampiric curse, absolutely final
I hope when you say this you have an intimidating stare and voice that causes the person to end the conversation and walk away.
Somebody's been watching Bridgerton lol!
I’d be interested in more accounts from these women forced into polygamy, I haven’t gotten into it too much before but it seems really important to hear their voices.
I believe John Dehlin recently did a series on Joseph Smith's wives. They even read some of the women's diaries. He also recomended "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton.
@@mariaperez9301 thank you!
Omg y'all. They had this excuse that unmarried women couldn't own land. But none of these extra marriages were even valid under the law.
Plural marriage is not secular but legal under the First Amendment.
I was born into Mormonism, I had church teachers look me in the face and tell me that
1. Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy
2. that groups like the FLDS didn't practice polygamy in modern day.
I was born in the 80s, so when I was about 16, 17 maybe I had seen news of the FLDS leader marrying multiple women, I don't remember when I learned underage girls were Involved and I had the young woman president tell me to my face that no Mormon church or Mormon offshoot practice polygamy in the 21st century and that I was being damaging by spreading these rumors. This was like in the early 2000s, had it been today a simple google search would have ended it. I feel like my whole childhood, teen years, young adulthood, I was just gaslit by the adults in my lives.
It is funny how controlling members of the church are, I am literally outside in the cold listening to your video because my parents won't let me listen to anything that is contrary to the teachings of the church in the house I also have to use my phone data because they don't want it on their wi-fi. I just barely left my mission early and I don't have much money so I have to stay here until I can leave but they will only allow things that they agree with inside the house I can't even talk about the subjects that I feel are important. It makes me sad to think that my family really only supports me if I agree with their religion if I don't then their love is extremely conditional. It's one of the hardest things I've gone through but I know it's right and it was very eye-opening to know that the people I loved and trusted didn't love me or trust me as much as I trusted them. A really hard thing to go through but an important thing. You guys have kind of felt like my friends even though I have never met you and I agree with what you're saying so thank you for giving me peace through this really hard time.
That sucks, I’m sorry! So glad we can help you feel less alone 🥰💗💗💗
@@ZelphOntheShelf Aw thank you
How heartbreaking. Sending virtual huggss n nurturing encouragement. Many blessings of courage and fortitude, strength and perseverance. It takes guts n glory to step outside the box. Too bad your people don't know that you are never too old to learn something new.
Congratulations on having confidence in your own thoughts and judgment in spite of all the pressure. Sending you hugs.
@@lorinapetranova2607 I really needed this, who knew youtube comments could be so healing. Thanks for the kind words and encouragment I have relly been needing them. Sending back virtual hugs
Just here to say that hysterectomies CAN be done without having to go through menopause 💖
I had mine last year, and kept my ovaries. No babies, no periods, no early menopause, and my favorite... no possibility of cervical cancer. Yay! ✨️
oooh just curious, are you keeping the ovaries for hormonal reasons or other reasons?
I remember this preacher (who had probably never done much in the way of child care because he was too busy being a preacher) saying from the pulpit that 'people see pregnancy as something unwanted, but babies are a gift.' So clueless to what women actually go through-basically trying to make them feel guilty for not wanting to continue a pregnancy. What kind of a God would create people with a strong desire for sex but put a massive sting in the tail in that you cant really decide whether you get pregnant or not ( I mean without any modern medicine) and then if you do get pregnant, insist that you cant do anything about it. Its like a sadistic game where the odds are deliberately stacked against you. Yes I know some people crave and yearn for children, but its ironic that one persons dream is anothers nightmare when it comes to pregnancy. You only have to watch Bridgerton (no spoilers I promise for those who havent seen it yet) to see what lengths some women would be forced go to when they found themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. And back on those days they didnt even know how you pregnant until it was too late,, making it even more unfair.
Actually polygamy (having several partners) can refer to both polyandry (having several husbands) and polygyny (having several wives). But yeah the word polygamy usually refers to polygyny and you made it pretty clear in your video so thanks for clarifying what you meant
Few people realize Joe not only practiced polygyny but caused women to become polyandrous.
you're right, but as an interesting etymological aside, polygamy actually specifically refers to spouses and polygyny/andry refers to partners, like in the *sex way*. and the sex-way version of polygamy is polygynandry, which is a mouthful! though of course, polygyny and polyandry is used to refer to marital practices as well like you said.
Legit put a vasectomy off for years because I was scared. When I finally did it, I realized it wasn’t that bad at all.
I had the exact same thoughts while watching "The Vow" and other series about NXIVM. I thought the whole time about how my 19th century ancestors who got duped into Mormonism would surely have said so many things similar to what NXIVM survivors were saying about their experiences--what brought them in, what initially kept them there, how they were manipulated and abused, how they stayed and suffered because they didn't see other options, etc. Raniere was a modern-day Smith, operating on so many of the exact same principles and tactics. It was some relief to think about the fact that modern technology, communication, etc at least made it so that this particular cult (NXIVM) couldn't perpetuate for as long and go on to damage generations of people.
honestly im really glad that you make this kind of content, i disconnected from the church about 2-3 years ago when i was around 12, knowing of their bigoted views on queer people, but outside of that i just kind of knew there were weird things they believed. More recently though I learned small tidbits of Brigham Young marrying minors, and them being shitty to the natives, which furthered my viewpoint but things like that generally didn’t go into detail, so you specifically naming the victims and how they were preyed on, and showing how mormons brush that aside and hide it from the church, it genuinely can help deradicalize mormons that might be having doubts
When she says “every drop of Scotch in my veins“, I believe she’s referring to her Scottish heritage.
"This ends now!" Lol. Congrats on getting the snip, Tanner! I felt the same when I got my tubes removed! (bilateral salpingectomy, which is a good option for those of us with uteruses/fallopian tubes who want permanent sterilization that doesn't involve messing with hormones. It is, of course, laparoscopic surgery, so it's more invasive than a vasectomy [because of course....], but it's something to consider. My surgery was outpatient and went very quick/smoothly. And I felt so much relief when it was done!)
Could cult leaders' attraction to teenage girls have something to do with "purity"? Older girls/women likely have already had sexual thoughts and desires of some kind. If you can claim them while they are still completely inexperienced, you will be the only man they have ever thought about and you can "teach" them everything there is to know.
Something clicked when Sam talked about sexuality forming in the 'vacuum' of the abuser's influence. Before I started to discover myself outside of the older men I interacted with online, my lesbian friends wouldn't believe me when I claimed I wasn't straight. I eventually figured out that it wasn't that I was attracted to men-- it was that I didn't understand sexuality outside of the context of my groomers' narratives. If anything, my sexuality was like a man living in my brain, telling me how he wanted me to make him feel, and I couldn't express that I found women attractive because I couldn't imagine how someone could be a woman and not be afraid, ashamed, and confused all the time. It'd be like fetishizing their suffering.
I'm okay now. Nobody is destined to suffer, nobody is pre-ordained to suffer. Just made me reflect on how I was personally affected. Thank you for the deep dive!
💜💜💜💜💜💜
I was in college, in class, very nevermo area. In lecture someone mentioned something about Mormon polygamy and I met my first Mormon! She immediately interrupted to tell the class that polygamy was necessary because of all the men who died on the trail. Families were assigned to someone else because those women needed help. I'm sure that's what she was taught and obviously fully believed it. Early 90's, the internet was essentially brand new.
Amazing video so far, and I'm only 12 minutes in... But I had to PAUSE because CARNAL INTERCOURSE?!?!?!?!?! I'm literally dead. I will be going to outer darkness now and forever. I will never, ever recover from that.
Also, we have a sample of a bacon fragrance oil that we absolutely are not going to use because we don't want the smell of greasy bacon filling our little den of iniquity when we make candles...but now I'm tempted to make a limited run "Carnal Intercourse" candle that smells like bacon simply to help that insane apologetic live on in my memory. WTAFFFFFF 🤣🤣🤣
Great idea for a candle
That sounds so awesome, bless you!!!
Aw man. When you were reading her words about struggling, having no mother and father to guide her - I truly thought you were going to cry. How did you get through that with such compassion and professionalism?
I came up in a household of Catholicism and Mormonism while knowing by about age 9 or 10 that I absolutely did not believe, so that was a nightmare and a half, and this whole thing of being made to say “yes” and give yourself away a piece at a time, I have tears running down my face. I don’t care that it’s well over a century ago, my heart cracks and breaks to dust for that little girl.
In Catholicism there is a thing called “confirmation” that you reach about age 13-15, and I remember sobbing and fighting with my parents because they tell you that if you take that sacrament without truly believing it then you were damning yourself and your family line to Hell and that you might be struck dead by God for it at any moment. I truly believed that my soul was in danger and that I was damning my family and my future children - assuming that I was not struck down for this mortal sin before I ever had them. I so clearly remember my father saying to me, “Why can’t you just do this one thing for your mother?” and I, a crazy straight-A student and the only one of my siblings who was never in trouble (truly a blindly obedient child to a fault), just wanted to scream “I DO EVERYTHING YOU ASK, WHY CAN YOU NOT LET ME NOT DO THIS ONE THING???” And people who have not experienced religious coercion can never understand. I’m nearly forty and both of my parents are gone, and that still continues to hurt me to my core. Every time you are made to say “yes” and told you have no choice because “God says you have to”, it takes a piece of you… and I’m not even talking about child marriage. I probably sound whiny and crazy to a lot of people, what does some ceremony like that matter??? But you guys know - it matters.
I had a very similar experience (confirmed as a Lutheran) without any of the courage to stand up to my family and refuse Communion. Even as I was struggling with losing my faith, I was so terrified that if I was wrong, I was not just damning myself, but others with me.
Then, I realized it logically made no sense, and that they promised me that God doesn't condemn people for the sins of others, but it did little to assuage the guilt and fear.
Much love and healing to you.
You don't sound whiny or crazy, and fuck anyone who tells you that you do. You sound like someone who survived an abusive childhood, and I'm sorry you had to live through that.
Yeah, sounds like you got some pretty poor catechism there - no, the Church doesn't teach that you can ever send your family line to Hell through any action.
@@NGC_290 I’m positive one of the nuns told me that my children would be dammed as well… the priest there said a lot of things, but he’s also one who got caught up in some scandals, so, you know. It may have been a childish understanding of them saying that taking myself away from the church would damn my future children because they would then not be in the church, I don’t know. I just remember the horror and the depth of the fear that I felt during that whole time, it was oppressive and horrible.
@@TheSightOfTheStars isn’t it great when you final reach that point of logic? I very much believed in G-d as a creator or whatever, but all of the New Testament made zero sense to me and I just could not accept it. I was left horribly confused by doing catechism and YW activities and meetings with the local ward, and was just a ball of anxiety about all of it. The fear was literally breathtaking.
Awww tanner so glad your procedure went well and that its been a positive thing, such a refreshing thing to see such responsibility and informed decision making xx
Yay on the vasectomy! I hope by talking about them we can normalize that as an option.
My husband got his done 10 years ago and we got push back. My husband was "interviewed" before the urologist agreed to do the procedure I had to be there and we had to justify choosing sterilization because we didn't have any babies. The urologist asked what would happen if he got a vasectomy and then later regretted not having children. My husband replied that he already spent time weighing his options and that its better to get a vasectomy and regret not having kids than bringing a child into the world and regretting not getting a vasectomy. I loved his response because it highlighted the ridiculousness of having to justify self-chosen sterilization.
Make sure you get your swimmies checked as we now have a granddaughter because he did not .
You guys approach this topic with great care, thank you. I wouldn't have been able to remain so civil while discussing this
Wow, what a powerful video. Thank you guys for doing all that research, I know it must be quite intense to read and recount all that heavy heavy stuff. This video really brings me back to the thoughts I had when the Keep Sweet show on Netflix came out and everyone talked about how disgusting and disturbing it was. The reason fundamentalists live out their religion in that way is because that's how Joseph Smith did it. Even without sex, being forced into a marriage at a young age by such a powerful man would be so scary! Especially back then when women had absolutely no rights and were owned as property by their husbands. I can't imagine what that woman went through. I can only hope more people in the church can hear this message and find the ability to see through their belief in the spiritual aspects of the religion and be able to understand that this is what it all really started with...intense spiritual abuse, manipulation and hunger for power and control. Especially considering the time period where everyone around the country was coming off of the second great awakening, searching for a religious outlet.
As someone who’s worked around a lot of middle-aged men in blue collar jobs, sadly hebephilia (11-14 yo)and ephebophilia (15-19 yo) are very commonplace. I never understood it even when I was 20-21 being closer to the girls ages.
I wondered, from an objective standpoint, if it has something to do with our evolution, seeing as nature doesn’t see age only sexual maturity which unfortunately develops a lot faster than mental maturity. With passing on genes being a major drive in nature this would be advantageous.
With it being so common, I’m sure the power that these cult leaders feel gives them the confidence to indulge in that desire. It just makes me wonder if those men I worked with would do the same with that power/confidence. It’s a horrible disorder that I hope we can learn more about in order to prevent it.
It was a 1-2 punch for me. Really learning how polygamy in the church went down started my faith crisis. Reading the Race and the Priesthood Gospel Topics Essay (and footnotes) ended my belief in the church completely.
So here’s a fun fact… I am the six times great granddaughter of Patty sessions. This also makes my five times great aunt Sylvia sessions. Both of these women were married to Joseph while they were married to other men. The argument for both is that the marriages were for eternity while there first marriages were for time, only. However, at some point, the church at the request of the families annulled the sealings to Joseph and sealed both women for time and eternity to their first husbands.
Guys thanks so much again. Thanks to you I am hearing about things that have been hidden from me my whole life. It all makes since why Joseph smith always gave me a sick feeling even when I was young. I never understood why people liked him so much when the things he did were so different from what we were told to do.
This is horrifying. This poor kiddo! I pray she rests in peace, now.
Interesting comments towards the end. Ive often wondered why people with kids always seem to have a problem with the fact that I never wanted any. They would always try to change my mind or make me feel guilty about it (yeah, not gonna happen!) I wondered if it was because they were jealous that I had the foresight to know it wasnt for me but they only found out the exhausting reality once it was too late. I remember a mother of seven saying (loudly over the screams of her children) that if people knew what it was really like then no one would do it. Yep-that would be me then! Watching what she went through was one of the reasons for my choice! I know that you do get to have this amazing connection with your kids (hopefully!) but far too many people go into it blindly thinking it will be all fun days out and cuddles and then find that its about tantrums and chores, never having any time to yourself, and giving up your dreams. It can even wreck relationships and sex lives, so I really dont see how people can think they have the right to judge others for making a very rational informed decision. Some people are amazing natural parents, others arent, so it certainly isnt selfish to know that youre not cut out to give a child the life they deserve. Sorry, a bit of an off topic rant but the whole thing about people being jealous of others choices got me thinking.
I seriously love your videos. I was never in the LDS faith but I am an ex religious person. It bewilders me constantly to think just how wrapped up in everything we used to be, and blindly, readily accept and defend anything that people challenged. I can't wrap my head around it anymore. It feels like our former selves are so distant and strange to ourselves now. I hope you guys are doing well and enjoying your holidays. Always a huge fan. I hope this video reaches people who need to hear it the most who have already been questioning the topic
Same here. I didn't grow up Mormon but I was raised LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), which is a similar kind of evil in many ways. I think most churches have that lurking within. It's awful the things I was taught to believe about women, abuse, and free will. As a kid I really did believe that God controlled my every move, and I couldn't really be sure if I'd come out a good person or designed to "teach" and "strengthen others". It'd keep me up all night crying wondering just how much control I had. Couldn't imagine if I had a groomer thrown into the mix, though the Lutheran Church is crawling with them just like any other church. Ugh.
This was so well done, I'm showing this to my TBM , it lays out the abuse and coercion so well, thanks y'all!!!!
I tied my tubes in Sweden and it was free. And my husband had nothing to say about it. No need in Sweden to have their signature.
Tanner breaking down 47:19 is so valid, her experience is so demonic
You guys rock! This episode is so insightful. 🧡
When I was a kid my parents always made it sound like Joseph had a handful of widows assigned to him to take care of and that was all it was. They also claimed God kept telling him he had to and he refused and argued with God because he was so in love with Emma.
To this day they just say “everyone was being sealed to everyone in those days. None of it matters as long as there’s a living prophet.”
The fact that it all proves there has never been and is not now a living prophet is not something they would ever consider.
You guys are like my exmo Mom and dad🥰 love you guys
This is such helpful information!!
…whenever I bring up the pain this issue causes me, my husband and family look at me like I am evil and contagious !
Well done! These type of videos are the most interesting, of all your content.
If they are 100% true. No one here was there when it happened.
@@selfimprovement.1925 Did you even watch the whole video? They read her journal. Journals are one of many things that give us a hint into the past. They also read court testimonials.
Ya, it's easy to dismiss history that's inconvenient, isn't it? Why study history at all if it's easily dismissed as 'No one here was there when it happened.' I guess Jesus Christ was made up too by your same pointless logic.
Why don't you 'Self improve' and go read those journal entry for yourself? You might learn something.
Tubal ligation, uterine ablation (which can also reduce heavy period symptoms!), and non hormonal IUDs all decent options for those with uteruses! (Some people have great experiences with IUDs, others have very unpleasant ones, but they definitely are worth considering for most people looking for long term birth control!) Also a bummer how often these procedures are denied to young women over concerns about "regret" or are only given to people who already have children.
Glad someone else mentioned tubal ligation.
As someone who has used (non-hormonal) IUDs for decades, I am astonished to hear that people think that placing an IUD is somehow a more serious procedure than a surgical procedure like a vasectomy.
@@chansonexmo not more serious, just, as they have been getting more exposure and they are being discussed and suggested more, many more people are coming forward with their personal experiences of negative reactions, displacements/rejections, less than stellar care during placements, etc.
They're certainly wonderful option, for many people, but they're not sterilization, they're a long term birth control internal device, meaning that there's a larger time span over which people can experience issues, may need to have it replaced, etc, as opposed to (if what they want is to never have kids) have a single experience that will give them that outcome.
Never mind the fact that IUD insertion is done generally, without anesthesia, and may actually take longer than a vasectomy procedure. Getting a wart removed counts as a surgery, not all surgeries or non surgical procedures are created equally, and the risks and benefits of each, to the person receiving the care, need to be evaluated. I don't believe anyone has said that it's more serious, only that, it's not the best option for everyone...
I just watched "Undercover: Sexual Harassment - The Truth" on Channel 4 here in the UK. It said over half of girls have experienced public sexual harassment while wearing school uniform (ie indicating they are likely 16 or younger). The presenter googled 'school girl uniform' and got sexualised outfits whereas when she googled 'school boy uniform' they were regular school uniforms.
She also created a dating profile as an 18 year old using pictures of herself at 18 and got men in their 40s and 50s messaging her explicit messages and sending unsolicited explicit pictures.
She also pretended to be drunk and alone (as an adult this time) and had 2 guys follow her back to her hotel.
And the fashion industry often hires teen girl models to wear clothes aimed at wealthy older women. Noami Campbell was in British Elle (primarily aimed at women aged 20-40 I think) at 15. Kate Moss was scouted at 14 etc (not equating modelling and sexual harassment of course).
Dark :/
I was definitely catcalled in school uniform 🤮
Really great episode, thank you!
My great grandpa was 39 when he married my Grandmother who was 14. It grosses me out! If you look up the average ages of marriage for that time it was early 20s to mid 20s in 1910.
!!!!!
My husband had his vasectomy a couple years ago, and I was so surprised how easy it was. Literally a 15 minute procedure, and he felt back to normal a couple days later. Our insurance covered the whole thing. Way easier than giving birth.
"You're invoking Saudi Arabia right now?!" - It really amazes me how some folks, especially when motivated by faith, will suddenly be able to justify the complete opposite of what they normally would. When the US Men's World Cup Team changed their logo right before the match with Iran, to support the protesters, one of my extreme Evangelical coworkers went on a ten minute rant about how horrible that was, because "protests have no place in sports," and blaming Kaepernick and Black Lives Matter, for ruining sports forever. How unfair it was to Iran, etc. This same woman, literally days before, had gone on a rant and called me a liar to my face, after I said that no, I don't think every Muslim is a possible terrorist, after 9/11.
So she managed to do the mental gymnastics in days to go from "every Muslim is a potential terrorist and if you don't admit that, you're a liar" to...vehemently defending the Islamic Republic of Iran, because black people calmly asked not to be murdered in the streets, and therefore all protest in sports is bad.
The equivalent of a vasectomy is a bilateral sapingectomy or tubal ligation! They are more involved than a vasectomy but still a generally easy recovery for most people
Congrats, Tanner!!
I've been in a few debates with TBM's lately on polygamy. No matter how much evidence you throw at them they won't believe it or have an excuse that Joseph didn't do it. Its really crazy the mental gymnastics they do
I actually looked at most of the evidence and it is not reliable at all. I think we also have to look at the fact that Emma, and all his children (including his oldest) have been completely against polygamy and say he didn't have multiple wives and the RLDS church was staunchly against polygamy from it's founding. The other thing to think about is that many of the wives that are purported were sealed to him by Brigham Young after Joseph's death. It doesn't make sense that there are 2 secs of a religion that split at the same time, and 1 says it didn't happen. Joseph also said it didn't happen.. but the other side (that clearly accepted polygamy) is saying and bringing evidence of 33+ marriages that happened in less than a year time (b/c the revelation about polygamy happened in July of 1843- and he was assassinated in June of 1844.. while running for president.) It is also interesting that Joseph didn't have any children with anyone except Emma.. and they had 9 children.... but none of these other 33 supposed wives had any children with him... and most married very soon after his death and became immediately pregnant by their husbands. There have also been DNA tests that disprove any relation to Joseph Smith when it has been claimed. (Even just reading this information off josephsmithspolygamy.org/
@Jeannette Kincaid the Mormon church says he practiced polygamy on their website. They acknowledge it. Is your church lying?
@jpenir I am inclined to believe e the women.. but the LDS church claiming he did and all the evidence coming from LDS Mormons that were pro-poligamy when his own statements and the entire RLDS branch (and his family) say he didn't, does cast some doubt. His son did go west to interview women who made the claims and by the end of his life, he said he could not deny for sure (so he was swayed by so.e of the women's stories.) I am just saying the proof that is often put forward comes from the most baised of sources (the polygamy practicing branch of his church after his death.)
@Jeannette Kincaid so in order to believe he did NOT practice polygamy you basically have to say all the women lied, the church is lying, and Mormon scholars are lying. Its basically a grand conspiracy. Just doesn't make much sense to me. Too many women wrote about it in their personal journals. Too many other people attached to these women (relatives, friends, etc) said it happened. You basically have to believe hundreds of people got together to lie and the church is in on it. Not likely.
@jpenir believing there is a conspiracy within the LDS church...isn't really that hard to believe. The entire religion is built on one to begin with. But, the accout of Lucy walker is compelling, and as I said, I am inclined to believe it.. but most of the marriages make 0 sense..since many were already married and then sealed to him after his death by Brigham young..who also married many of them....when that branch of followers were pro polygamy and having a story to support that view that shows the original prophet took part in it...then legitimizing your behavior when you are already doing questionable thi gs like marrying other members wives, etc...doesn't seem like a huge stretch. But I think b k we also have to go back to the things they said in the video that many times people who are being abused then take active part on becoming abusers. That can also mean they take on the narratives that are being repeated to them. The same importance placed on Lucy to marry Smith, would have been the same importance placed on her to uphold that story by another prophet/abuser/ groomer to uphold the backing to polygamy. I just wonder why JS would adamantly deny practicing polygamy while he was allowing others in the religion to practice it and there was an entire schism on the church around polygamy with one side adamantly denouncing it and his involvement in it. The LDS church has been involved in many conspiracies and hiding truths.. not sure how this seems unfathomable.
Hello and welcome to my table top thank you for content
A group of scientists have been studying Joseph Smith's face for almost four years, and are publishing a report soon!!
Ooooh
sam- watching this video i was drinking that exact same kombucha as you- was it lavender?? also to both of you, great work, what a powerful video!!
Yes!!!!
I don’t know why the Mormon church thinks Joseph Smith not having sex with his plural wives makes those marriages less bad. No one can deny that Joseph Smith was asking women to break the law of the land by becoming a plural wife. We have written evidence that he was pressuring women to do something they found repugnant and that he threatened women who rejected him. And for every woman he took as a plural wife, he was potentially denying them the opportunity to meet a man and fall in love and have a happy life of her choosing. Also, if Joseph did not have sex with his plural wives, or sex that could lead to conception, he was also denying these women the opportunity to be mothers. All this in addition to all you discussed regarding consent etc. Not having sex with a plural wife does not make the plural marriage okay.
I have been out of the church for 19 years and was aware Joseph had underage polygamous wives, but to hear a detailed firsthand account from one of them and how awful the experience was...first thing to touch me emotionally about shady Mormon history in a very long time.
Bilateral salpingectomy (fallopian tube removal) is a permanent, one-day procedure (Main recovery restriction is, "Don't lift anything heavier than a cat for two weeks.") that m a y also reduce the risk of ovarian cancer. In most blue states, it is covered under insurance. ( I don't know whether that is a state-by-state thing.) The approval process is a bit tedious and DOES vary by state/region, but the childfree community on Schmeddit maintains a list of providers complete with personal reviews.
Congratulations Tanner for being a REAL man and doing your part to help curb over population. Good truthful comments. Does the Assoc. For Voluntary Sterilization still exist? Anyways. Hugs n blessings. I got fixed after a second cesarean. NO ONE should suffer through death defying pregnancy when drs are extensively involved. Many blessings for a more sociologically healthy country. Yeah Tanner!🎊💐😁🤗💙🌸🦋
"He was my Husband Sir! " -What do Husbands & wives do Sir once they are married?
I'm sure I'm not the only one but it's so ironic that because I've been watching these videos the algorithm has both auto-played actual mormon religious videos after yours AND I've been getting WILD ads.
Most recent being "Extra-dimensional channel & councilor, accessing your arcturian consciousness"
hahah wow what a microniche you’ve wandered into
Okay, I feel I must comment, as an anthropologist with more than a passing interest in the Oneida Colony. They were NOT "just fine." Really. It was not okay and did LASTING damage to the young women in particular. I agree that openness and honesty is really important, but please do not discount or trivialize the fact that, even in the Oneida Colony (where polyamory was common), there was a markedly high rate of sexual predation towards children...young girls in particular.
hi sally, tanner here! thanks for the clarification. i certainly didn’t mean to imply that everything in the community was unproblematic. only that they practiced openly without federal intervention. thanks again for the comment, as it is a very important note.
My grandma's grandma was a polygamous wife. And my grandma told me about it. She disapproved.... And was a jack mo. She married a Lutheran.
I have known for years that Joe had multiple wives, because one of them, Desdemona Fullmer, was my ex-husband's great-great-aunt.
Why’s is so disturbing now a days when it has been done since the beginning?
because he lied about it and the church continues to tell a different narrative
I’m currently reading “Kingdom of Nauvoo” and it’s bonkers what Joseph Smith was doing all the while preaching the exact opposite and courting secular power. Tale as old as time I guess
You are so right that polygamy can never be just or truly consensual in a patriarchal society- there is way too much power differential not to mention manipulation of making it so the women can’t go to heaven unless they do it. There is just no way in a patriarchal or religious situation where I can see it being truly consensual. By the way, I’m so glad I found your channel- I appreciate the way you both look a things through a lens that does not make things binary and black and white, but for seeing things as being a bit more complicated than that
where can we find these journal entries or accounts from these young women?
www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/References.html
@@ZelphOntheShelf thank you so much! 🙏🏼
This video is wonderful and comprehensive, I want to share it with some people who question my questioning of polygamy. Can you please tell me what Tanner is reading from to get all of this personal information about Lucy Walker? Many thanks
www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm
@@ZelphOntheShelf thank you ❤️
This kind of makes me wonder how Mormons would look at JS if he had just been another guy in the cult/a higher-up instead of its creator and original leader. Like, he did more or less the same shit, but on a smaller scale since he would've had less power and cachet. I'm sure the answer would still be very depressing. Especially considering the denial about Jeffs.
Edit: I'm sure Sam is aware of this (and I didn't read the rest of the comments before posting mine), but we do have tubal ligation and bilateral salpingectomy. They are both typically outpatient procedures which don't affect AFAB people's hormones the way hysterectomies do. However, unless you've had kids and/or are over a certain age (my PCP said 35), they are difficult as hell to get. It sucks ass!
36:47 Starts talking about Lucy Walker. I loved all the talk before it though!
Can you talk about the miniseries A Friend of the Family? It's about the Jan Broberg case and very Mormon influenced.
On the “every drop of Scotch in my veins” could be referring to her heritage of being Scottish’s. It might also be a reference to fire or mettle, such as in an internal power
Thanks!
awww thank you so much!! ❤️🙏
A parallel topic with pedophiles and child sex abusers is the propensity to perpetuate a cycle of abuse. The abusers themselves were more than likely sexually abused themselves. The abused become the abusers and the cycle continues.
I thought I was subscribed to you on Patreon but I wasn’t! All fixed now :)
Yay!!!!
No dating till you’re 16. But 37 year old Joseph marrying 14 year children is fine because times were “different” back then. Also, God never changes. But we don’t do that anymore. But don’t question God, are your seriously questioning God!?
-Some Mormon, probably.
My 14 year old aunt got married that that age. Her husband was 22.
@@selfimprovement.1925 Her husband is a pedophile. That’s so tragic.
@@selfimprovement.1925 Gross. That's bad.
@@starringer5621 yes it was. Just saying girls were married at young ages. Still happened around the world and it’s terrible.
I got a total hysterectomy (kept my ovaries). The recovery takes a few weeks but best decision I ever made.
And woman can do tubal ligation that doesn’t affect hormones. You could also laser the lining of the uterus along with it.
A total hysterectomy usually means having both ovaries and uterus removed.
The wives were being traded like Pokemon. If they had already attained celestial glory marrying JS, there's no need to be passed to other men. One of the whole points of the church (or so we are told) is to take care of its members. There isn't a rule you can only be taken care of if you're a member and married. Women = property, and there's no way around it.
What you said about repressed gay people and unhappy mothers being the most hateful against people who do what they want? That's where the phrase "misery loves company" comes from. "I'm miserable, so you should be too. "
I'm fairly sure Shakespeare made a point of showing disdain for child marriages. He points out in R&J that Juliet is only 13
“Joseph Smith HORROR mansion-CZcams”
Glad you went with the snip and mentioned what women are expecting to do. I got my tubes tied without a second thought and the recovery was a nightmare (sorry if TMI everyone but it's probably good to know, it's like I was on my period for like a year and I had a newborn since that's when they like to do tubal ligation.) It took me a couple years to stop being totally miserable and my husband could have just gotten a simple procedure without even going under.
💜💜💜
No one will tell you. CZcams: Joseph Smith horror mansion.
Just sayin… my 4th son is post vasectomy “natural reversal” where the vons deferens scar tissue touches & a sperm can get through. I had my tubal ligation afterwards. 😳
Congratulations, good on you for getting sterilized! I'm so unbelievably envious
I've never been interested in sexually pursuing younger guys, even when the other guy was over 18 and literally throwing himself at me. I think the biggest age gap (with a younger guy) in a sexual relationship that I've had was 6 years when I was in my mid 30s. I can't even imagine what would have to be wrong with someone to make them want to get married to someone so much younger... Like, what are you going to talk about with them? You would be closer to a parent than a partner.
It's nigh impossible to connect meaningfully as equals with way young partners. Conversations about interests and hobbies and stuff are superficial. Deep conversations inevitably take on a mentor/student or parent/child role, because the younger person just has so much less life experience. No amount of "you're so mature for your age" can make up for the fact that they just haven't spent as much time on the earth being a human.
Plus lots of people who had to "mature early" are victims of neglect and abuse who needed independence to survive, so most of their experience is learning to read their abusers, which, turns out, translates very badly to living in the outside world. They are hyper experienced in one aspect of humanity, and woefully under-experienced in everything else, and need a therapist, not a romantic partner old enough to be their parent.
@@FrogsForBreakfast you're absolutely correct, and I hope this is something you've picked up from reading and not life experience.
Not relevant but it may have been the notorious Brigham Young who said taking a wife was as trivial as buying cattle (paraphrased)
I had my tube clipped and burned then later a full hysterectomy 3 years later due to health issues.
It’s so stupid that people even have the gall to call these marriages or “polygamy.” You cannot have a true marriage with a child. You have a victim. I’m fully supportive and engage in polyamory, with consenting adults, and it’s a beautiful thing. This? This is disgusting and I hate that anyone tries to downplay this history at all.
My great great great great grandmother was married at age 13, about to turn 14, and she died shortly after giving birth to her 14th child, ten of them lived to adulthood.
Wow
So sad...
scotch
verb (used with object)
to put a definite end to; crush; stamp out; foil:
to scotch a rumor; to scotch a plan.
to cut, gash, or score.
to injure so as to make harmless.
to block or prop with a wedge or chock.
noun
a cut, gash, or score.
a block or wedge put under a wheel, barrel, etc., to prevent slipping.
I could almost swear, based on a lifetime of reading novels written during the Victorian and Edwardian eras, that anything “Scottish” used to be called “Scotch” and personality traits strongly associated with the “Scotch” were something along the lines of stubborn and fiery- perhaps (I’m guessing) because of some association with red hair, or perhaps because of the many uprisings against English rule. Every drop of Scotch, I think, meant every ounce of obstinacy or rebelliousness she had, probably linked to Scottish heritage.
I also think that in the 1830s Scotch was still just being called whisky, but possibly by the time she was writing in her 90s, it was called Scotch. I don’t think they talked about being tipsy in that way, though. I think she would have been more verbose about the alcohol’s affect on her if that were the case
What source are you reading from? Her journal as a young child? As an adult? How long after did she write about it?
Polygamy is multi spouses, polyandry is multiple husbands and polygyny is multiple wives
According to the dictionary, polygamy is not gender specific. It can be used for multiple wives or husbands.
Polygyny is men having multiple wives and Polyandry is a wife having multiple husbands.
Also. I think it’s kind of weird that exmormons mention “polyandry” as a problem with the church. Women should be aloud to have more than one spouse, especially if men are. We should describe Joseph Smith marrying other men’s wives behind their back in a different manner.
Lol Tanner @1.03!!😅
Polyamory is also not forcing people into it unwillingly, or assigning women to men for the practice, or abusing kids, or raising people that it’s their only option. It’s all of the “other” things attached to polygamy in a fundamentalist context that make it evil.
30:12 polygamy is "the practice or custom of having more than one wife or husband at the same time." It's not necessarily patriarchal, it applies to women having multiple husbands too. "poly" many, "Gamy" marriage. Polyandry is one woman with multiple husbands, polygyny is one man with multiple wives, but they are both types of polygamy. The '69 musical _Paint Your Wagon_ with Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin plays off the idea of polyandry in the old west