Mormonism Doesn't Understand Consent | polygamy, AP exposé, Jeffrey Holland
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2022
- We discuss how Mormonism was founded on a lack of consent and how that ties into the church's response to the recent AP exposé, Jeffrey R. Holland's recent talk on people leaving their missions, and more.
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#exmormon #mormonism #lds - Zábava
An older couple in the ward I was in tried to get me to date their granddaughter. I was 29, she was 14. I didn't.
!!!!!!!!!! 🤮
You obviously don't follow in the footsteps of the prophet.
@@charlesmendeley9823 lol fax
That older couple might have been a pedophile
The baptism at 8 thing has always confused me since I was a child, because the answer is oh they’re old enough to make their own decisions at about 8. And I’m like how so? Even when I was 8 I knew it was such a huge decision yet I was too young for every other huge life decision. Weird lol. When I got older I never could answer my friends question about that😂
This topic needs constant discussion.
I never got a sex talk from my Mormon parents. They just threw a LDS book at me (I recently found out it was written by BRAD WILCOX). It basically went over puberty (can’t remember how medically accurate it was) and said not masterbate.
I feel like I was one of the lucky ones, but I know women close to me who received the same education (or lack thereof) and were in endangered by it. I’m trying to be cautious about how I’m wording this but, if you aren’t taught about consent, bodily autonomy, or sex-you’re not as aware of red flags or when someone has crossed the line, or empowered to speak up about it.
I really hope I’m getting across what I mean-for example (and it’s minor compared to the stories I’ve heard from others), as a eighteen-year-old at BYU, this older student played this weird game of chicken sliding his hand up my thigh. This wasn’t a flirty conversation (far from it to me), I didn’t know him, it was completely out of the blue and unwarranted, we were surrounded by other people. It was like he was seeing how uncomfortable he could make me and see how far he could get before I said something. Of course, because of my upbringing, I was a deer in the headlights and finally, meekly said something to him.
Also while at BYU, my bishop told us this gem in Relief Society one Sunday, “men are the gas and women are the brakes.”
Mormonism is the perfect place for predators and abusers.
And as far as the temple goes, there was never any choice for me. But that’s another long comment, so I’ll stop myself there.
Nooooooo not Brad :(
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to guess that your bishop's "men are the gas, women are the brakes" was framed in the context of praising women. Is that a correct assumption? Because I've heard way, way too much stuff like that in the church from everybody ranging from everyday members to multiple top leaders every damn General Conference.
One of the things that I like about your content is that your rarely attack or criticize individuals who are raised in the church and perpetuate the beliefs further - because they don't know any different and they could literally not choose differently because their whole way of living depends on it.
I remember when I was turning 8 my parents sat me down and hesitantly asked if I wanted to be baptized and if I knew what it meant. When I said yes, it was like instant relief flooded through their eyes. In their minds, they had my consent to go through this gigantic commitment. I actually had no clue what it meant to be baptized, but I knew that they wanted it and I knew that it was 'the right thing to do'. As individuals, they were doing the best they could. They were encouraging me to be the best I could be, but they literally couldn't understand how messed up it was for them to take that as consent. I was 8, but their whole life, their social standing, their acceptance from others, their own cognitive self-worth was riding on appearing like they were good parents and had kids who they had raised well in the gospel. So they took my "yes" as law because it was a lot easier than actually making sure that I was physically and mentally able to consent to what they believed to be one of the biggest decisions in life. The organization that they are a part of had systemically trained them to avoid thinking critically and simply accept what was the fastest path to their (religiously ingrained) desired outcome. I can't hold blame for them as individuals... It's a highly systemic and organizational problem. So I appreciate you pointing out the many and diverse problems with the organization, beliefs, practices, doctrine, and teachings rather than criticizing individuals. I learn something from you guys every time I watch a video!
💜💜💜💜💜!!!!
My sex ed was my dad handing me ‘To Young Men Only’ by Boyd Kenneth Packer and telling me to read it. Needless to say, it caused me to be especially fearful and ashamed when I realized I was gay. On my mission. 😅
Devastating story.
Me too!
Yup. I'm 55 and same story. BKP's horrible pamphlet and realizing I was gay on my mission. Then the Evergreen "support" group and conversion therapy thru LDS Family Services. What a mess.
@@olly-kaithat's terrible. Hugs
I never realized how coercive it was for my mission office to hold onto my passport. However, in retrospect there are still ways I can think of getting around that issue in the country I served in. Like threatening to report myself to immigration. "I am a foreigner and my ID was stolen" Such an act would endanger the working trust of the church with that country's govt and they would be more likely to send you home.
Growing up I would get called out by my mother for sitting comfortably at HOME because my legs were spread too far apart. And she would openly say that it was because my dad and brother were home. Was told this as young as 12 years old.
Horrific Holland clip. Made me absolutely sick. Thank you for exposing that threatening coercive rant.
I felt safer saying I was unworthy to go on a mission than to say I don't want to go on one because I didn't feel I could go tell people about a church I wasn't sure I believed in.
My parents were very gentle about trying to convince me to go, but they kept saying “it’s such a great opportunity that changes you in these ways”
And I thought, “oh… so all the ways that living by yourself for the first time changes you? You could get those benefits by moving away for college, getting your own apartment, traveling by yourself… there are so many ways to get the exact same benefits you’re describing!”
I’m not going. I’m leaving the church and they know now. Looking forward to getting a helix piercing in May!!
One of the things that I love about my sister is that she is (at least now) very much supportive of my niece and nephews making their own decisions about their lives. Of my three nephews only one has chosen to go on a mission and when the bishop asked her about it, she came right out and said that it's their choice to go on a mission or not. She actually went into the meeting my youngest nephew had with the bishop in case she needed to fight to back up her son's decision not to go. When the bishop asked why he wasn't serving a mission, my nephew said that he can't serve a mission for a church that has such distasteful policies regarding the LGBT+ community. Major props to my nephew for standing up for the LGBT+ community and to my sister for supporting her son.
Samantha, Tanner, I love you both so much! You've been a huge part of my deconstruction. You are both so beautiful and wonderful and I'm very glad to have found you both in the digital ocean. :)
💜💜💜💜💜!!!!
I've been wondering why as an English agnostic I'm so fixated on exmo content but this video reminded me of how my stepdad, who went to a normal-ass English church, gave my mum shit for letting me wear things around the house which showed any possible sideboob or where nipples could be discerned through the fabric, from about age 12 onwards. My mum stood her ground as best she could and their marriage was only 5 years long but that's probably gonna stay wedged in my psyche for a while
I agree with you, Tanner. I always thought it was insulting to men as well as women to say that if a female were to wear "provocative clothing, a normal male just wouldn't be able to control himself!"
You KNOW the video is good when it brings up multiple personal anecdotes lol
On “You can’t suppress human sexuality.” I remember watching Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame with my father and sisters as a kid, and during Hellfire, he used that as a “teachable moment” to tell us why every other church is wrong, especially the ones who tell their clergy to stay unwed, that gods design is for everyone to be married in the temple, and that’s why he made us humans desire companionship and suppressing that is unhealthy. I think you can guess what his thoughts on me marrying someone other than a cishet man are🤔
he- I- how do you misconstrue the meaning of hellfire that badly
truly lost in the sauce ig
Thinking about how when I was almost 8, I told the bishop that I didn’t know if the church was true, and I didn’t really want to get baptized until I knew and he responded with “well, may as well try it, right? If it is, you’ll already be in” and my ever curious brain was like, “eh, fair point.” Considering this was the only option I’d ever had at that point and the only option I’d be allowed under my father’s roof, I really wish I knew to just hold firm to not getting baptized.
Once I was, and for years to come, it was, “why would you get baptized if you didn’t have a testimony? You obviously felt the spirit at some time. You must just already believe so firmly that you don’t think about it, etc.”
!!!!!!!!
My parents wouldn't sign the consent form for sex ed. I sat in the library with 2 other mormons those days.
The only talk about consent was my mom telling me I should do whatever my husband wanted whenever he wanted even if it hurt. And I should always pretend to like it. Luckily my husband didn't feel the same way but it could easily been different.
No sex ed leaves people vulnerable to abuse. Mormons don't care because they don't believe it's possible for a mormon man in good standing to be abusive. It would be nice if church leaders were just connected to actual reality.
I was a teen in the 90s in the height of purity culture and I still deal with the damage in my 40s. I personally think the people teaching those things know how damaging it is especially to women and they just don't care. They're willing to harm a woman's ability enjoy sex in her marriage as long as she gets married as a virgin.
Oh god, I’m so sorry! Chilling advice from your mum 😬
I was that guy who turned my nose up at ANY church criticism. Clearly they were wrong and uninformed! It didn't matter how valid, I just never believed in anything else. I think I would have listened to various adults I looked up to if they had a different take but, of course, they mostly agreed with me 🙄
Now outside-looking-in (Hallelujah!), and I understand why people think that way. Frustrating, naturally. Guess the message simply needs to be continually broadcast in the hope it gets picked up eventually; took me years, for example.
Thanks for this episode! I read Holland's words at one point but hearing them is absolutely chilling! So awful! I'll have to check out your recommended reads 👍
50:30 Wow, crazy to learn that about Josh Duggar not hugging siblings properly, then later SA'ing them.
Good work helping protect "perfect victim children from a Murray suburb", from Jeffrey Holland!!
I never thought about how much they make women like children. But yeah. I don't understand how I misunderstood how suppressed I was in the young womens program and everything. I'm so glad I left when I did. I feel like I unknowingly dodged sooooo many bullets.
And I came from a house hold where tank tops and basket ball shorts were too problematic for my dad to see on his teenage daughters.
!!!!!!!
Am I the only person who is totally creeped out that Mormons have to talk to the bishop about their sex lives, even when minors/teenagers? Euuuwww!
NOPE, it’s horrifying
And you just know that The Bishop gets off on it afterwards.
@@mylesmarkson1686yep, that's the truth
My bishop asked me about masturbation before I knew what that was/you could do that. I was 12. I was terrified for the next few weeks that I had done something wrong that prompted the spirit to tell him to ask me that.
I made out with a boy in middle school. He tasted like eggs and it was actually pretty nasty, but I felt intense guilt and shame for it for months (it wasn’t even that long, probably like 30 seconds) and I beat myself up for it for like 4 months until I told my bishop.
I left a decent relationship because it escalated too quickly and I felt intense guilt and shame about it. I confessed to my bishop then too.
Needless to say there’s a reason that purity culture is the thing I have the biggest issue with. I always felt unsafe in those interviews and never once thought “hmm maybe this is all BS and Joe the general contractor from down the street doesn’t have a psychology degree so I shouldn’t be telling him anything!” Because I thought those men were ordained of a god, I just put up with it because “that’s the right thing to do.”
REALLY SPICY HOLLAND CLIP, YIKES. (accidental caps lock) thank you for making this. good video
Absolutely adoring the "day 3 of an action film where they're stranded on an island" fits
Interesting point that so many medications are tested primarily on men. I wonder if that's why SOOOO many common over the counter meds for pain, digestive issues, etc. are unsafe in pregnancy.
I was never Mormon--I was Church of Christ, which is another, less bad (but still bad) can of worms--but I can relate to so much of the BS that you're talking about in this video. Being raised "female" and being told my body was for other people, victims being blamed for their/our own assaults, never really being taught about consent (until a sex ed class in high school, which still used the chewed gum and duct tape analogies and was overall really bad), and also "choosing" to be baptized at the age of eight. That last one absolutely horrifies me to this day--like, if either church was true, why would they allow 3rd graders to make commitments that would dictate the entirety of their mortal and eternal lives? If it's true, why can't it wait until you're old enough to make an informed choice? I've tried to bring this up to my mom and just got the "his ways are not our ways" canned response they always give, unfortunately.
But I digress! Point is, even if I was never Mormon, your videos have still been helpful over the past few years as I deconstruct a lot of the things I was taught. (Really, the only weird CoC thing that Mormonism didn't *also* do was the "no instrumental music" thing, which I realized was nonsense even when I was a teenager still in the church.) Plus, it makes for great listening while drawing! Though then, I might miss the cute sleepy kitty in the background, lol
I was having a bad day and seeing Zelph on the Shelf upload brightened my mood :)
Awww 🥰
Completely unrelated, Tanner's current hair/mustach combo looks like the cute highschool boys from my church youth group when I was in elementary school in the late 90s, but also a little like a WWI soldier. He needs a horse and a metal bead choker to finish the look! Exploring your style outside strict religious boundaries is really freeing.
Correction: Tapir ;)
@@jamybailey a cavalry of tapirs would be pretty wild
Purity Culture messed me up…bad! Over 15 years of marriage later when I quit Mormon fears and became adventurous; I was scared my husband would think I was being slutty. He assured me he did not; but I resent the church so much for all that brain washing and the constant retraining and reassuring I have to go through now at 40
I have read suggestions that John C. Bennett helped Joseph with abortions. It would be an interesting episode.
Your setup aesthetic is still calming and beautiful like a very good river rock
Lowkey need sam to decorate my house
“Protect this child I just made up! Real children have already Disappointed Me” actually throws up
I know the victim abuser cycle is super complicated and layered and nuanced this does not detract from that
I wish we as humans talked about how people’s brains can sexualize&fetishize traumatic experiences as a way to deal with them, and then how to reconcile with that, get it out of your sexuality as an adult, or learn to have a healthier relationship with your sexual self.
Coulda used that. My brain did some funky shit with a lot of body dysphoria changes and self harm romanticism. We have the means and material to study these things about humans and I hate that we don’t. We could’ve known all this for years
Not me quoting a perverted j. smitty in my high school yearbook 😬
I had NO idea that’s where it came from. Barf.
Hey you've added a new level of professionnalism. Congrats! And congrats on the new apartment! Thanks for another great video.
so about 31:41, I really appreciate my seminary teacher. I do still go to seminary despite having left the church because my teacher is genuinely a great guy and will teach things in class like finances and psychology (which he teaches at a college level as another job) and college and stuff that i dont think hes technically supposed to teach? but he's great and knows I'm not a member anymore and resepcts that and like, still genuinely loves me more than my parents tbh.
His daughter turned 8, and he gave her all the information, I think even some psychology, and was like "okay this is up to you. You dont have to do this if you dont want to, okay?" and when she was hesitant to get baptized, he was like "okay! if you change your mind let me know"
thats how it *Should* be if it should be done at all. Like when asking a kid to make a big decision, thats how it should be.
It makes me feel sad when I think about how this great guy, great father, great teacher, and like, only trusted adult figure in my life is in this church with some wack practices and is potentially a cult, ESPECIALLY because he's a psychology professor!
Said it before, I’ll say it again, I love y’all and you being such joy to my world. Thanks for being your awesome selves.
Ps. Tanner, new haircut? It suits you well!
Hell yeah Come As You Are is sooo good. Quality video you two!!
This is SUCH an important topic, when Keep Sweet came out and everyone talked ab how disturbing it was, all I could think about is that that's exactly how Joseph Smith ran his polygamy ring so if ppl think it's gross now, how would they feel if they were watching JS do it rather than Warren Jeffs??? How can you comfortably follow a religion that was built on that? Of course it's cuz they choose to remain ignorant and believe that since it happened so long ago, we have no proof it was this way. Even tho we definitely do have proof.
I'm also so glad y'all touched on the temple too, I discovered y'all when researching the temple ordinances when my sister was ab to get married and I was so disturbed by the way they don't tell you anything until you're in the throes of all that. Great video y'all, thank you for all the info and discussion!!!
Love seeing you guys together 💖
Thank you! You are always a delight ❤️
I love you guys, your content brings so many great thoughts and topics to the forefront. Thank y'all for everything you do.
I remember asking how the Plan of Salvation made any sense with the idea of agency, genuine curiosity, met with anger- as usual with genuine questions
I attended a public high school in Utah and was surprised that abstinence only education was all that was taught in "sex ed" though we never got any actual education on sex or consent -- literally in the whole class the only thing I was told is don't have sex until marriage, and teachers scaring us with the danger of STDs if we did have sex. Makes it clear now why so many people (guys especially) don't seem to understand that consent is necessary, because they were never taught in school or by their family
I grew up in Washington, where I bet sex ed is pretty good, but I was removed from class on the days they covered it.
Wow!
I grew up in Arizona where in junior high it was abstinence only based (so effective 🙄) and even then my parents pulled me out. When I was in highschool, we had another sex ed section (thankfully not abstinence only based), and I managed to get away with not telling my parents so I could go.
When I was a teenager I told my bishop that I had been raped multiple times by a boy in our ward while we had been dating. I told my bishop this because didn't feel worthy for a calling. He proceeded to tell me that I had committed the second worse sin possible. I couldn't take the sacrament but I had to watch the boy who abused me bless it. I had to go to Sunday school with him. I had to go through the shame of my peers knowing I was unpure but still respect the priesthood authority of the one who abused me. Not to mention I only understood it was rape because a nurse told me so after asking about my sexual history.
I’m so sorry, that is so unbelievably awful 💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
I paused the video and watched "Keep Sweet and Obey" . Holy cow... I was not aware that there were that many people involved in it 😵
12:01 Love all your videos, and this is a great topic. Just for your information and to expand upon why trials weren't done for women, there was a lot of issues. A big one was because of pregnancy effects "In 1977, the FDA issued a guideline banning most women of "childbearing potential" from participating in clinical research studies. It was only lifted in 1993. The main reasons for excluding them was bias; the assumption that there were no significant sex differences in regard to medication response, and therefore no need to study women separately; concern over having to adjust for women’s fluctuating hormone levels; and concern over reproductive effects.
Edit: Just wanted to add this comment because I know some toxic people try to turn on the idea that it’s all about just “preferring men/misogyny” and I think having the data is super important because this topic of trials and medicine as a whole not being properly done to be inclusive really has hurt so many people. Even a female heart attack looks different from a male heart attack, it’s crazy
In my absolute joke of a sex-ed class (it was like a 3 day 3 hour total seminar), they didn't use the "chewed gum" metaphor. They instead went for the also garbage: a person (although the class was all girls so I assume they meant more "a woman") is like duct tape, then they preceded to stick it on to and rip it off stuff until it didn't stick to anything and said "that's what happens to your ability to connect to others". That DID stick to me for an uncomfortably long time lol.
Edited to add a colon for readability:)
!!!!!!!! 🤯
Hey i was taught the same thing! My family was recently taking about the chewed gum metaphore and how messed up it is. But when I mentioned to my family the duct tape everyone got quiet and was like: but it does kinda work like that...
Oh. Okay then.
@@alynareading5448Oof that must have been really awkward (・_・;) I have similar problems with mine haha.
I hope that in the future that people can let other people enjoy sex with multiple partners at the same time or one after another and it not be considered this morally bad thing.
@@thegoodcookie8904 that would be wonderful!
Oh my gosh. I hate that metaphor so much. As someone who has had multiple sexual partners I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with that metaphor. I think that having multiple partners has allowed for me to understand myself, my needs, my likes and dislikes, and how I communicate with and am triggered by others. I think having multiple partners has been so so so so so helpful for me. It's also allowed me to develop an understanding of my standards and expectations. I am so much better at communicating with a partner, being clear about my expectations and needs and consent. I hate the duct tape metaphor so much. I can only imagine the damage that would have wrecked on me if I were told that during my teen years. I am so sorry!
ironically my mormon step grandfather also has a time share...
My family wasn't super avoidant about talking about sex, but we were opted out of school sex Ed once we were in public school (had been in a Catholic school the couple years before, and before that, home schooling)
Late to the comment show here, but wanted to say that the Stake President didn't give that speech in a vaccum. There was a push that came down from at least the area authorities to reinforce that men don't have a choice, because rates are dropping. Confirmed with my active, nuanced Stake President friend.
👏🏻
I encountered the church's idea of consent when I went through the temple the first time in the 70's. You know what I mean.
Thanks for saving me thousands in therapy. BTW: Did JR Holland want to tear the curtains down to hog-tie the missionaries? Squeal now real nice "weeeeee, weeeeeeeeeeee"
Good discussion;
marcus
I was afab and, while I wasn't Mormon, I did grow up in a fundamentalist Christian church.
I remember a staff member told me I had to get new pants because mine were too tight, showed off my body, and made the boys look at me. They said I wouldn't be allowed back until I did.
I wasn't even 10 years old.
:(
In the question of consent, what about a change of mind, during...
I was not raised religious but my mom made a big deal about me not wearing a bra or wearing a bikini, some of it was cuz I was “fat” which still not great but some of it was because it made me too sexy.... at like 10...
May I ask… why was breaking the “do not eat…” command necessary for the “be fruitful and multiply” command? I’ve never heard of that conundrum. I’m a non-Mormon Christian, so maybe the LDS Church has a slightly different explanation of those commands.
Essentially the lds doctrine is that they wouldn't have had knowledge of how to have sex without eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Yes, it’s only taught in Mormonism and I only just realised this, a few months ago.
You should check the Gilgamesh epic. The Adam and Eve story is plagiarized from this work of literature.
Tanner looking yolked!
yoked=💪
yolked=🍳
As soon as I heard the word tanktop, I immediately remembered putting on a white tank top after showering and my mother told me I couldn't wear it. I think she mentioned my stepdad but this was years ago so my memory is a bit fuzzy. She is also a mormon btw
😬
@@ZelphOntheShelf I do remember her having a problem with the tank too because it was white and probably because I didn’t have a bra on as well
People from the Mormon church I left (which it was not easy for me to break free from them.. because there was many who were practically stalking me..) but anyway, many from the one I left always brought out a major red flag because they downright want to victim blame and say it’s the girl’s fault if she is sexually assaulted/raped…. 😳😳👿🤛🏽
Tbh.. there are still some who keep trying to contact me. I once asked someone… why is the church Not viewing me as an ex-Mormon and an apostate? You know I have had my membership removed. However when the 2 senior sisters told the bishop I ripped up my “temple recommendation” card… they call me saying “we know you left, but the bishop wants to meet with you in his office Jennifer. Alone.” 😳😳(No worries. I did not go see him.) I’m not falling into any of their traps. Not again. 🙅🏽♀️🙅🏽♂️👿🤛🏽👿🔫
This is maybe not the takeaway from this video but what on earth is 'murmuring'
the mormon sin of complaining/grumbling
Is polygamy the correct word to use: It’s only men marring a lot of women. Not the other way around. Do you have a better wording option?
So in the context of a CZcams video, is it consensual to deliberately manipulate my will by manipulating the CZcams algortishm? I don’t have info on your intent. Can you give me the info?
Is your will being manipulated by us Jeremy? Sorry to hear that, sounds like something therapy could help with!
Also I WISH we knew how to manipulate the algorithm, that would really help us out!
You could try using Noam Chomsky’s ECP (empty category principle).
I am on Invega for schizophrenia, which is a serotonin and dopamine antagonist, so I am able to build resistance any unconscious or conscious manipulation.
Kitty is adorable 50:00 -- ff.
" The Church doesn't know shit about psychology "
marcus
Santa is true 😂
Of course he is. I read it in a book once.
Tbh does it even matter if 'at the time loads of middle aged men were marrying chidren'? If you are a religious leader who's claiming to be inspired by God and setting an example for people to follow for all time you can't really go around blaming copying other people for your actions. Otherwise you have to admit only some of what you are doing is God-inspired
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I have a specific thing against Jeffrey Holland, considering his stupid fisherman talk got me, I thought it was so wise and whatever the whole "do you love me?" Like, yikes.
The way i had to wear a bra every damn day in my home as a child to not "tempt" my brothers or dad was disgusting! My mother had me terrified of all men from a very young age! The sad reality was she was the one sexuallizing me more than any of the men 😞
Im a trans man too so the dysphoria was terrible
My brothers walked around in just underwear and nobody said anything about that! It should be okay to just let everyone be comfortable but i was the only female and i was the only one being told what to wear
🤮
💗💗💗💗💗💗
oh my, will Elder Jeffery Holland DoucheCanoe never quit ?
marcus
It’s better to get married and have kids when your young. I wish I was Mormon and did that when I was younger.
Here we go are you ready for Heaven? Have you ever lied, stolen used God's name as a curse word (O-M-G)? According to God's law, you're guilty. But wait, God loves you, he made a way out. God so loved the world that he gave his son (Jesus death on the cross) that whoever believes in him will not die but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Please think about it. Repent/believe before the rapture. Jesus died for you,live for him. Love U