Joseph Smith's *completely* contradictory first vision accounts | Response to FairMormon
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- čas přidán 15. 12. 2020
- Let's take a look at the controversy surrounding the varied accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision!
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• Joseph Smith's First V...
Joseph tried to join the Methodist church in 1828: The Amboy Journal, Amboy, IL, details Smith's 1828 activity in the Methodist Church. April 30, 1879 p. 1; May 21, 1879 p.1; June 11, 1879, p.1; July 2, 1879 p.1.
Numerous church leaders described Joseph’s first vision as a visit from an angel(s), not God and Jesus:
Orson Hyde, General Conference Address, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.335, 2:170-171
Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, pp.196-197
Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.29
John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p.127
George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, pp.333-334, Vol. 13, p.77-78 June 20, 1869
Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966,Vol.1, No.3, pp.29 - 45.
#zelphontheshelf #fairmormon #josephsmith
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Hellbent on trashing people and then trying to grift money on top of it like ur doing some kind of service instead of having a real job and making a contribution to society 🤣🤣🤣... Talk about delusional lmao... FYI u forgot to hang the crystals 😜
@Joseph magic Underwear Smith keep grifting lol
@@seanpearce8362 😂😂😂😂 so if someone asks for money it’s wrong? What did Joseph smith do for a living?
@@seanpearce8362 well, if you'd actually listen to them, you would know Tanner lost his job due to covid-19. like many Americans he's struggling. And I wonder, do you make hateful comments to other CZcamsrs who have patreon accounts or just the ones who are exposing the TRUTH about the LDS cult/Corporation? You may not think they're doing anything worth a patreon donation, but others DO.
@@shawnbradford2243 👌💯 great response!
I am a 4th generation member of "the church" and stopped attending after I acted on "same sex attraction". I never told my Bishop about it, but I never heard from anyone in "the church" ever again. Years of guilt vanished after reading the CES letter. I ❤ your videos. They make COVID bearable. 🎄
💙💙💙💙💙
Glad you got out 🙌🏻🙌🏻
This is why mormons aren't allowed to do drugs. We'd have a new vision every other day. Joseph Smith wanted to keep that treasure for himself.
Have y’all seen what are obviously fair Mormon crew going to exmormon forums to claim these videos from fair are so good that they’re going back to Mormonism. It’s so obviously them.
😂😂😂😂☠️
LOL wut?
✨ i n c r e d i b l e ✨
and according to them the ex-mormons are the ones who cant leave other people alone? *sips tea*
It's funny cause I watched some of the new fairmormon videos hoping they would change my mind.... they just reflected the back and forth that my own brain has already done. I see those videos more as a childish fight against the makers own conscience, or the "influences of Satan", the conscience is often equated with within the church.
I have to go on a week long church camp in two days and it's going to be rough, so thank you for your videos, they keep me sane.
GOOD LUCK 💜💜💜
FairMormon is *WRONG AND MISLEADING.*
How is FairMormon wrong and misleading?
@@richardholmes7199 Why don't you read the CES Letter and find out?
@@rydersonthestorm7175 The CES Letter jive has been debunked. Google ''Jim Bennett refutes the CES Letter''. Jim Bennett refutes the CES Letter on every point. Also Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. A video debunking the Egyptologists on every point.
I had a vision that said all the other channels are false and Zelph is the one true channel
Seems legit!
If it wasn’t 20 years ago I don’t believe you
Preach!
I prayed and got the same answer. Glory be!
I affirm that I also witnessed this with my spiritual eyes. And actual eyes.
The way they talk about the CES letter as "dishonest journalism" drives me absolutely bonkers. From my understanding, the letter wasn't intended to be this big exposure of the Mormon church; Jeremy Runnels had legitimate questions that he was seeking answers to. Why couldn't anyone just honestly answer his questions? Obviously, it's because no one has the answers without resorting to the malarkey that these FAIR videos are showing us.
CES Letter?? Google ''Jim Bennett refutes the CES Letter''. Jim Bennett refutes the CES Letter on every point. Also Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. A video debunking the Egyptologist assessments against Joseph Smith.
There is documented proof Joseph Smith was a con artist. I don't see why further investigation is necessary after that. How gullible do you have to be to believe a known liar?
@@johnpoole3871 The only "known liars" are the ones who makes these accusations against the Prophet Joseph.
He was in fact a prophet and an honest and virtuous man, and there is nothing in true history that suggests otherwise.
All the character assassins lined up from here to Hong Kong cannot change that truth.
Now, if you want to further examine the word "history" - well I've got a good handle on that discipline, so I don't suggest we go toe-to-toe.
You won't like the outcome..
Just watched a LDS commercial before I got to see this video, so church is paying you. You’re welcome.
Lol 😂 get that tithing back!
Haha
@@moxyismyname5786 lmao yes 🙌
Just went to fairmormons youtube page, apparently they are so open understanding and honest that they keep their comments section disabled haha.
Honestly it’s better to have a video that openly has a ton of dislikes and lots of negative comments than having comments and likes disabled. The latter makes you seem unwilling to accept criticism and just wanting to hide from it
@@craigstephenson7676 yeah that's what I was saying. I was being sarcastic about them being open.
I noticed this too! 🤔
Can we all just take a moment to appreciate how much they researched for this? And they even put all the sources in the description? Love it. Thanks guys.
7 minutes in, and I already feel like there is a missed opportunity for a Mormon gameshow. Vision Stories: Joseph Smith or Contemporary Faker?
I love that your cats sound like actual children. I lost it when Sam shushed Banksy 😂
As a teen convert, the first vision touched me and was what "converted" me. When I found the GT essays and read the one in the first vision, I was done. I tried to hang on but I was so crushed and disaffected that I was done. My foundation crumbled instantly.
Congratulations!
What are the GT essays?
@@Greentrees60 gospel topic essays
@@adriennejohnson4201 heres some more accurate information on the vision accounts: czcams.com/video/cJS85lYL2lg/video.html
This seems so bizarre to me. Giving contradictory details is a normal way humans tell stories. There's nothing disingenuous about that at all.
been waiting so hard for this. love the music and editing on the quotation readings XD it's so well edited. I just watched John Dehlin's fast announcement/ask for help video and then the SLC housewives interview ep. because of the zelph stories. ya'll are doing wonderful work to help the post-lds community and in doing research and information spreading. xo
Sometimes it seems like they’re actually doing a parody of apologists trying to defend their faith. It’s hard to believe they could actually do such a bad job. Then again, I’ve learned to lower my expectations for Kwaku.
I was thinking the same thing. Honestly I could make a better case for the church then they are.
Your final remarks reminded me of an elder's quorum where we were told a story about a mother who had chosen to pay tithing rather than buy her children warm winter coats. A week later, someone happened to give the mother winter coats for the whole family. It was praised as an example of what happens when you prioritize tithing as the most important bill to pay.
It is so interesting how many new sects of Christianity started at the same time in the same area of America.
Yup. J.w's , Christian scientists and seventh day adventists etc
@@markpeter1968 most mormons don't know a thing about jacob cochran. he started a free love community in saco, maine. he is called the "John the Baptist" for Mormonism in saco, maine. the terms spiritual wifery, plural marriage, united order, complex marriage (favored by oneida community), came from cochranites.
after he was jailed, a lot of cochranites joined mormnism. 9 of the apostles were cochranites.
remember the eerie canal joined up the american frontier from cleveland, ohio to n.y.n.y. that is how mormonism came to accept so many different ideas from so many different places.
The only thing going for Fair Mormon and Kwaku is their mental gymnastics game is on another level!
The more I look at ‘The First Vision’ from a Kool-aid sobered point of view the more I realize I spent two years going to peoples door spreading tall-tells... it’s baffling how all critical thinking is discouraged and even lost by members of the church.
😭😭😭😭 i served in your mission! The crazy part is that while I was serving in McLean, my companion and I got home one night, popped popcorn, propped up one of our iPads, and started watching the Joseph Smith Papers (we always used to just find something from the gospel library to watch). Well, right on the iPads we were given were episodes about the various accounts! We sat in silence for a minute, then talked about how we weren’t ok with it, then went to bed, then never talked about it again . . . So crazy! Also, can’t tell you how happy I am to see someone from the mission on here! I have joined various groups like thoughtful transitions and listen to Mormon stories and such but never know anyone! Also, I swear to you our mission was next level gnarly. . . Way more intense than anyone else I’ve spoken to. I don’t know.
Curious Wanderer did we ever serve in the same zone? And I know that around 1/3 of our mission has now left the church, that’s including 2 AP’s
@@LoganBeck oh sorry! This is Kathryn Thomson. I forgot about my dumb username haha. I don’t remember if you were in my zone but i remember while I was in McLean we taught a Chinese family together for one lesson as a pass-off.
The sad thing is that there is evidence that it will actually stunt brain health, making permanent changes to the brain which make it harder to make decisions on your own. Basically, the church teaches you to doubt yourself so much that you can't function without the approval of others (bishops, president, prophet, etc). I highly recommend seeking therapy from someone who specializes in cult mind control.
I totally think critical independent thinking is important. For everyone... I don't see it as being discouraged. On a related topic to the first vision, I recommend checking out some of Wayne Mays videos on book of Mormon evidence.
The fact that FairMormon, Kwaku and who ever the hell that other guy is think their videos are funny is insanely stressful. They're so annoying.
They are funny, but not for the reasons their makers think they are. I recommend NEMO's channel in which he takes Fair Mormon and Kwaku's videos apart very carefully, and shows exactly why they are wrong.
For Example: "Fact Checking The CES Letter Is Wrong About The Book of Mormon Translation."
me: watching this video
the Joseph Smith biography on my dads bookshelf: am I a lie to you?
me: yeah pretty much
😹
Kwaku and the “other kid” are the kind of people that you really hope don’t turn up to a mutual friend’s party. So. Awkward.
I know it's beautiful and all, but this is one reason I'm glad I don't live in Utah.
The Salt Lake Tribune had an article on these videos and to sum the article up, ridicule is not the way to approach anyone who has questions and this may make the CES letter viral in mormon circles.
Baloney. There isn't anything more viral already than "the CES Letter." And those videos are incredibly effective in taking down the CES letter.
@@michaelpeterson6174 I would recommend:
" Fact Checking The CES Letter Is Wrong About The Book Of Mormon Translation."
I would also recommend all the other uploads in NEMO's Fact Checking Series.
@@bossendenwoodconvict You know the CES letter has been reduced to rubble when its proponents are in the position of having to crawl onto CZcams to supposedly "fact check" its recent demolition via the Fair Mormon videos.
What these videos have done is expose directly and visually how inept and dishonest and lacking in reasonable factual basis and plain ridiculous the entire CES letter really is.
Why cling any further to it? Many of those who still hang on to the CES letter are kind of like the proponents of the flat-earth theory - the facts were right in front of them and they refused to disbelieve it.
And you would "fact check" with someone who's an atheist and bitterly opposed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? What do you expect to get back?
While we're "fact-checking" - how about the CES letter itself?
Try this:
archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/ces-letter-reply-faithful-answers-those-who-doubt
Over 350 pages of refutation of that 132 page essay, line by line, and this has been out there awhile.
Also go to:
debunking-cesletter.com. Incredible amount of material - videos, speeches, podcasts, diagrams, you name it, taking down the CES letter line by line.
There's a lot of subjects to cover and get one's arms around (the letter was designed that way to overwhelm the uninitiated), but the public is getting there. We're well on our way to depositing the CES letter (whose author has never been able to demonstrate was really a letter even to begin with) in the dust bin of anti-Latter-Day-Saint history.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true, the gospel of Jesus Christ is true, as well as the Book of Mormon and all the revelations in our day. Jesus Christ himself directs His Church today, through a living prophet. It's all true, and anyone can find that out.
@@michaelpeterson6174 Name just one thing that NEMO gets wrong.
@@michaelpeterson6174 Yes, I can tell by all the apostates that the CES Letter has created
Damning for me was that no one at the time wrote about it.... If I thought a guy had seen God I woulda written it down.
are they implying... joseph smith met god and jesus but forgot to mention God? like, the creator of the universe and the most powerful person big boy god? how could joe forget that?
Such a scatterbrain!!!!
23:37 The reason why the 1832 account is so condemning for Joseph since he only mentioned Jesus is because of how _disruptive_ of a vision it would be to have seen the _Father_ AND _the Son_ as two separate beings! It would definitively falsify the god concept that pretty much the entire Christian world had had at that point!
The other point to make about the 1832 account is that it is Joseph's _own personal journal._ He has ZERO reason to fudge the details of his encounter! He's not being persecuted for writing in his own journal. If anything, THIS should be seen as the most honest recounting of the event and the standard we look to for accuracy since he has no incentive to warp the story! The 1838/1842 account is _plagued_ with incentive to have the story reframed and embellished!
edit: Also, to say that he had to explicitly say that he only saw and spoke to Jesus and no one else for it to be an issue fails to address to things.
1. If the Christian version of god IS CORRECT, and Jesus visited him, then OF COURSE he wouldn't need to say that there was no one else, _because there could be no one else!_ Jesus is GOD!
2. His description is _exactly_ what we would find if Joseph DID have a Trinitarian view of god. There would be no need to specify that there was no one else because he's operating on the assumption that there COULD be no one else!
edit2: Goddamn! Every time I go back and listen to or read Mormon apologetics, it always leaves me unimpressed.
When FairMormon uses classic gaslighting tactics 🤭
Kwaku:
“Ex-Mormons just like to make up problems”.
LDS ppl who are questioning and looking for reasons to stay:
“YEA, of course they do!!!” 😄👩🦯😌
Ex-Mormons:
“But these are ARE problems and your arguments are didn’t actual debate my poi-”
FairMormon & crew :
“shh you just can’t stop lying because even though you have morals, you aren’t bound by any institutionalized religious fear-based laws that make you have morals or else you go to hell so you won’t feel guilty for lying about the church so you don’t actually have morals.”
15:30 that's exactly it. The CES letter comes across as pretty well intentioned and professional, so I can't help but cringe when FairMormon has these "epic take down" style videos about it. It just feels like a child throwing a tantrum over something they don't like.
Edit: Hey also, if you guys see this, would you maybe consider doing a video about the new(ish) come follow me lesson plan? Church leaders have encouraged families to basically have this sunday school lesson manual to accompany scripture reading and I'm noticing a lot of it feels like just apologetics? Like a lot of the lessons are basically like "this verse seems like a contradiction to another verse, but let's explain why that's not true!" I haven't seen anyone talk about it yet and idk if I'm being dramatic or if it's worrying to other people as well. Love your content!!
I want them to see this comment so I'm trying to get it higher up so they do 😊
That Banksy, such an attention seeker.
The differing accounts of the first vision was the second thing that got me doubting years ago!! The first was the church not helping to protect my kids from abuse!! My life is so much better now 13 years later!
Look at all these dope effects! Love it
* *DOUBT* *
33:42 - I like that Kwaku’s idea of history is that Joseph Smith (1820s) was hanging out with “Mayflower people” (1620s). It’s this level of historical awareness that allows a person to believe that Jews sailed to America in 600 BC.
You're responses are so much more thought and include so much more information lol. FairMormon's responses are pretty much just like "YOU IDIOT, IDIOT!"
I still feel like those two guys need a lesson in how to construct a well-researched argument. I feel like they could benefit from an English 101 course with my old professor. Their arguments just sound so poorly worded and constructed and they lean back so hard on the asshole attitude that its like trying to listen to a middle schooler defend their daddy's political belief with no prior research done.
And yall still handle them better than I ever could've for that reason
24:46
Not surprised Kwaku is so deeply in bad faith that he can't even be consistent about the narrative of JS's lack of literacy with the very organization he's supposed to be representing.
How embarrassing for him.
This is the best way to watch Fairmormon's videos. It's best not to watch them directly so they don't get the view counts. Not to mention that they have turned off comments.
I would recommend the Fact Checking series by Nemo. He fact checks all FairMormon's uploads.
In that way you can watch them without increasing their view count.
For example: "Fact Checking The CES Letter Is Wrong About The Book Of Mormon Translation."
I love how calm you are.
I enjoy watching the pair of you give your opinion, but also the respectful way you two interact. It’s fantastic modeling for us all. Maybe that’s a bit of a hold over from your past? I know you both have worked hard on becoming the best you, and I don’t mean to diminish that, but being in leadership roles you learn quickly that all eyes are on you. (23 years with the girl scouts as both a member and a leader. First time someone picked up “fuck” because of me was a hard row to hoe.)
But if I were making a video with my BFF there would be way more gay jokes, “your mom” comments, and inappropriate behavior.
I love your content and the positivity you bring to your videos!
Thank you!
Awww, thank you so much! Such a nice comment :)
Ex Adventist here! It's so interesting to see how similar our religions are watching your videos. Ellen White actually promoted veganism later in life so there are whole hierarchies around diet in the church. Some people eat kosher meat but it's seen as weak/more lenient. It's a whole mess of spiritual moralization of food. I remember begging God for forgiveness for accidentally eating shrimp at a buffet 💀
I absolutely adore that room!
Because he contradicted himself this proves he didn't *really* contradict himself has to be the biggest galaxy brain argument of all time.
31:36 In Fawn Brodie’s book there’s evidence that Joseph Smith would tell followers that the first vision occurred when he was 16 years of age. Then JS changed it to 14.
Really appreciating the volume of content at this time of the year especially!!
Calling out Kwaku is my sexuality and y'all do not hold back! Love this and you guys
Sounds like harassment to me...
@@prettymermaid2117 sounds like you don't know how to take a joke to me.
Don't get so butthurt about me thinking it is hilarious to call out a hypocritical mormon apologist after i was severely abused by said church and many of these apologetics were reasons give to me.
Don't give me that "oh that sounds like harassment to me" shit. I literally made a joke about Tanner and Sam calling out Kwaku and his shitty apologetics turning me on. That is in no way harassment. Do you laugh at people who have been caught telling huge lies for a super long time and they tell you an insanely extravagant story to try to to get you to believe it? I'm absolutely sure you do.
You may not do it publically because that would tarnish your 'perfect mormon persona' but i know what it is inside the church. I know how mean everyone is behind closed doors and how fast rumors spread about someone who may have broken some sort of violation of the strict and unspoken contract that is part of mormon culture. I lived it for 18 years, I know what I'm talking about, I know you do too, along with almost everyone else who has watched this video.
Maybe you should try finding some way to relieve yourself other than by making false claims on a channel that has almost exclusively unapologetic ex-mormon content, where the comments are a place to talk about the abuse the mormon church inflicted on us and the stupid stories that so many of us didn't realize were absolutely insane for decades.
Try loosening up and maybe try to understand jokes when you are on an ex-mormon content creators channel. If you were trying to be funny, you really missed the mark. I do hope you escape the brainwashing and gaslighting you are subjected to everyday to feel like me making a sex joke about have a shame kink is harassment.
Ok bye. Don't come back plz thanks
@@prettymermaid2117 no
Great job on this one! I’m really enjoying your responses to these FAIR videos.
I love that your response videos have considerably more views than their actual videos.
A couple months ago I was talking to my mother abt the contradictions of the first vision accounts and she had me come in to tell my (extremely TBM extremely aggressive) father why I thought it was bullshit and I was asking why Joe wouldn’t specify that (in one of them) “The Lord” in the first part of the sentence meant God but “The Lord” in the second part of the sentence was Jesus (bc the church’s gospel topics essay said that it “could OBVIOUSLY be assumed that that was his intent” which is some of the biggest bullshit I’ve ever heard in my life) and my mother was trying to tell me something abt how it was just the way they talked back then and I was asking over and over again /why wouldn’t he just SPECIFY/ and my father informed that I was “making a big deal out of an anti Mormon nitpick and this conversation is over”
????
HOW is that a /NITPICK??/ THIS IS THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR ENTIRE FUCKING RELGION???
Great video as always! 💕
I must say... I f love your videos. Your videos helped me to finally leave the church fr. I was scared Cause I felt so alone.. I also felt like my whole life was taken away from me. But since I found your videos on YT I realized I wasn’t and a lot of ex-mo go tru the same thing.
Also, big s/o to Jimmy snow, he’s awesome too.
The fairmormon video gave me second hand embarrassment 😬
Imagine missionaries having to memorize every version of the first vision in the MTC oof
Fair’s rebuttal painful to watch, thank you for the thoughtful commentary.
Love the editing in this haha
You guys are doing a great service, mormon apologetics are frustratingly deceptive
I love the editing!
YES!!!! This is the one!! Thank you so much my loves.
Kwaku and the white kid on FairMormon are soooo childish I get extreme second-hand embarrassment.
EXCELLENT job unpacking this! You two rock! 🤣
Man I love listening to you guys speak!🙌
Right away I get a kick out of the idea that a 14 year old boy tells an insane story and when people don't believe him he's "persecuted."
The thumbnail and editing for this video are fantastic
My biggest shelf breaking moment! Reading the 1st 2nd 3rd drafts of the first vision. And the translation in a hat moment 😆
Does anyone else get Nickelodeon vibes from the FairMormon news show? Do they think they're speaking to children?
Just watched Fairmormon's video about the process of translation of The Book of Abraham. The one where they say that Joseph Smith could translate a ramen packet into a Scripture. They also call few people "Nazis" for saying things similar to Brigham Young's rhetorics, while being silent about Young. I tried to leave a comment, but... SURPRISE! The comments are closed and you can't see the number of likes/dislikes. So brave!
always love seeing these two beautiful people on my lunch to get my mind off work and on to the manipulation the mormon church engages in 😂🙃
My entire thought when it popped up!!!
:) :) :)
Love the thumbnail! I’m sure the video will be great too💜
The lighting effects had me laughing too hard
thanks for covering this, i wanted to know what they talked about but didn’t want to give them views. thanks 🙏
These two guys remind me of the news reporters from Saturday Night Live. It's hard to take them seriously.
Keep up the good work
God bless you two for what you do. ❤️
It's kinda sad to watch them try so hard. When I was a believer I remember avoiding coming across as arrogant because "I knew the truth but others didn't" hahaha at least I tried to sympathize with others or just ignored what I took as attacks because that was the "Christ like thing to do". Even as a believer I always viewed the apologetics as sort of pathetic, angry Mormons who didn't know how to answer to or deal with "the opposition". 😂😂😂😂😂 I guess I was on my way out and didn't even know 😜
Where could I find out in the LDS scriptures, where the different first vision accounts are?
Is there any way you’d be able to sell a print of your CZcams thumbnail for this vid? It’s so iconic and is perfect pass along card size!
I’d buy a whole set of pass along cards if you all designed em by the way 💖💖💖💖
Oooooooh
@@ZelphOntheShelf like imagine this in a set with other iconic pass along card moments re-enacted by y’all!!! I’d ride bikes and pass them out 💖😆💖
mow MOWW? mow MOWWW?! 😿
I can’t stand people who present their arguments so smugly like Fair and Kwaku do. It feels far too similar to the way the Shapiros do. It also shows just how confident and unwilling to rethink their views they are.
Your content feels like a breath of fresh air in that you guys actually talk like normal adults and have normal conversations.
I can't believe people actually join to this cult! I recall in my young 20s I went to one of their churches close to my grandma's house in Paraguay. There were 2 very handsome elders a tall blond American from Utah and a dark skin complexion Argentinian. When they started telling me the story of joseph smith for some reason the Argentinian started crying and sobbing. It felt so faked and forced. I was trying not to laugh cause everything was so farfetch. After telling me the story of Jesus in America and all that racist crap, they asked to me what I thought about. I didn't want to sound rude cause after all I went there. So I told them that there narrative was so different from everything I was taught before as if there was another continent between South America and Africa which only they knew about it. Also being gay helped never to join any cult that purportedly ostracised me even more. Lol. Love your videos btw!!
Question. What was the purpose of the angel Moroni repeating the same message to Joseph Smith?
I hate to be mean, but even if I were mormon, I would be annoyed by fair mormon. Their presentation style is so inauthentic.
Pls turn on cc! ty :)
I just realized that I personally know one of the hosts of this show...... and I don’t know how to feel about.
Sam you are so pretty and your room is such a vibe. I love your outfits.
He's illiterate but he read the bible...what?
Don't forget he had his special rocks and a two gallon hat! LOL
Carl Jung said that fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt. Methinks the Kwaku doth protest too much.
Can relate
Thank you guys for getting a proper microphone.
You can thank Jimmy Snow!!! :)
@@ZelphOntheShelf Then I thank you, Jimmy Snow, wherever you are! I love the content these guys produce, and I am happy they are stepping up their production game.
@@BrianMillsMFA you should check him out, he used to go by mr atheist on youtube. Does a lot of videos, especially atheist and exmormon videos
I laughed when he said a con man keeps his story straight, and facts never changes... You know what never changes, the truth. Have you ever watched a police/detective interviews, where the person who committed a murder, will keep changing the story and/or facts to get the police/detective to believe them.
"The church doesn't hide things." Ya know, if I knew about the seer stone growing up, I would probably still be in the church/it world have taken a lot more than just that one fact to shatter my shelf. Just sayin.
It's problematic when Daniel Peterson or these Fairmormon kids try to portray the multiple accounts of the First Vision as a continuing narrative.
It's normal to have multiple people give varying reports on a car crash, but when you have ONE person providing varying accounts, it would be an obvious dismissal in a court of law. FairMormon's convoluted answers are very misleading and dishonest. It may help a generation of youth laugh off the cognitive dissonance, but it will be problematic for the church in the long run.
The music I’m dying 😂😂
this should have been an online debate!
I recommend the upload:
"Fact Checking The CES Letter Is WRONG About The Book of Mormon Translation," by Nemo.
There are many channels that Mormons label "anti-Mormon,"
but Nemo's channel is something else!
It's "anti- KWAKU, " and appears to be the ONLY channel specifically created to take Kwaku and his
friend's claims apart . This is done by playing their uploads, freezing them whenever they make errors
(.i.e every 5 seconds, ) and explaining what the errors are. For example:
Straw man arguments, out of context quotes, avoiding evidence, adhominem attacks,
blatant falsehoods, appeals to popularity and testimony bearing.
An excellent channel.
This thumbnail makes me smile everytime I see it 💖💖💖
I love how your cat always sounds like a child. "MAMA?!"
OK Kwaku. You say the 1832 account has no account of being attacked by Satan. Well, go back and watch the 1976 film 'The First Vision' that I was shown over and over again as a youth in the late '70s and '80s. This was a film produced, sanctioned, and approved by the LDS church. I was shown this film as a youth dozens of times...especially when I was in the teachers quorum (same age as Joey Smith when he had the "Vision"). Fast forward to minute 10:14 of the film. When young Joey is kneeling to pray, he says he was seized upon by some power and his tongue was bound such that he was unable to speak. He also says thick darkness gathered around him and it seemed that he was doomed to sudden destruction. Well...in Mormondom, that power would be Satan. It certainly wasn't the Holy Casper. The church clearly conveys the narrative that ol' Beelzebub himself was trying to stop Joey Boy from speaking to Elohim and receiving the wonderous Vision that launched Mormonism. I was taught this as a lad in Sunday School, Priesthood, Seminary, home evening, etc. my entire life. You may be right that the 1832 account doesn't specifically speak of Joey being attacked by Satan, but this is something that was absolutely taught to the youth.
I have recently finished the book of mormon I was like wtf its a mixture of 16th 17th and 19th century english, either god was strange, or Smith made it up, well I am going with the last one...
talking about gospel topic essays, ces letter, fall of the book of abraham. which of the above do you think had the most influence on you quitting the church? for me it was book of abraham.
I love the vibe of this video, I feel like I'm at a sleepover with you guys lmao
Awww
That's a great thumbnail
26:47 could imply all of those things though.. what are you saying?
That's it! Each account doesn't work together. The Lord doesn't work that way because he is truth. It's either Joseph Smith saw two personage's or one personage it can't be both.
Right?!? And in another account apparently he saw a whole host of angels! He either made this all up, or he was majorly tripping on something.
I remember teaching and being taught that it was so essentially important that God the Father and Jesus Christ were two separate beings, that they both came to convey this truth to Joseph Smith in the first vision.
giving this video a like!