I'm a (long ago) EE who has found himself in control of a 4020A, has not been an engineer since the F-16 program in the mid '80s. and is now needing to to suck up as much Fusion 360 and machining knowledge as possible to make production quality parts in a matter of weeks... and your videos have been extremely helpful! So, I wanted to say thank you for doing this, but also tell you what you may have heard many times before... that you are a natural teacher... should have been a professor somewhere (although maybe you are or have been...I guess I really don't know). It's a gift few people have. Anyway...I make it a habit of letting people know of the good that they do in this world.
Wow! I'm totally blown away by your videos! I am a Computer network IT guy Self employed for 20 years now. I have clients who have had these machines for years. up to this point I have only ever worked a little with the PCs that are in these and working with make sure they can talk to network shares on the LAN etc. More recently they had some failures and I'm starting to get a little more involved. I have an electronics background so am absolutely comfortable jumping into these a little deeper than I ever have in the past. Thanks for all the work you have put into these videos it is excellent information and I'm miles ahead in my understanding of helping take care of the electronics in these machines than I was one day ago and for the past 20 years.
I would also point our LinuxCNC as a major option. All machines sold by Tormach are based on PathPilot (older fork of LinuxCNC). The biggest benefit of LinuxCNC is ability to have full unlimited control of all aspects of electronics in a machine - in an really economical way. And with good motherboard (I use GA-H81M-HD3) bundled with Mesa cards there is no interruption to worry about. Also stepper / servo drivers has come a really long way since 1985. So end result will most certainly give a better real world end result.
PathPilot and the way Tormach controls there machines, combined with price point were the main reasons for not purchasing one. Linux CNC is great for hobbyists but in my opinion it will never be able to compete with a purpose built controller. For the motor drives most machines use 3rd party drives. Fadal used a lot of Glentek drives. There will be videos about motors and drives coming.
Thank you for the answer! I still don't quite understand what are the real world differences are - if you could do a short video about this topic it would be great.
Whoa, my head hurts. Overload of electrical engineer speak, no oil, grease or skinned knuckles involved, Tim another good one. I think I learned something, but I won't admit to my mechanical buddies.
Your secrete is safe with us John ;) I'll share one of our secretes, we kept scraping up our hands on the bottom side of through hole boards, so now everything is surface mount! Problem solved :)
Hello Sir Keep going the world need to learn..All of us around who made thorugh the pandemic would never again take for granted the oppurtunity to learn to make lives better.
Hey Tim, Love your channel! found it after purchasing my first Fadal (1999 3016L A/C) your videos have helped me so much!! Thanks a ton!!! I've purchased a second machine a (4th axis ready 1996 4020 DC with cool power and 10K head) I did however break one of your rules when buying a used machine in that it was not under power. For me the price was worth the risk as this machine was close to my shop and the owner had to sell ASAP. This machine is SUPER clean. Owner claims to have had it in storage for 10+ years unused and that it was only used a few years for prototyping mag parts. I'm guessing there in lies the issue(s) After confirming the transformer config was right for my voltage I threw the switch. The fan power up like my other machine, I pushed the CNC power button and the control does not start. The axis control boards power up and their LEDs are flashing. However the clear relays are not lit and the control panel is not powered. Any Advice? Thanks Kevin
Hello Kevin, thanks for the feedback. I would start checking fuses first. There are a ton of them peppered all over these machines. Make sure all the taps on the secondary of the main transformer are at the proper voltages. Please be careful, if you don't have an electrical background I would highly advise a service tech. There is a deadly amount of power in there, keep arc flash in mind as well.
back when I was in Manchester NH at Lockheed Plant we had many machines - one of them a Fadal with CNC 88 - One of our machinists Roger Levequse had a hobby of board repair and could keep that Fadal running.
I use some of your videos for Fadal training. I used to work for a Fadal Dealer back in 1988 plus we did CNC Retrofits with Delta Controls. I try to teach many machines so that you will be employable in many places. I learned to "learn" other machines and it gave me confidence to approach a new machine with the ability to learn it based on what I already knew. I would always practice safe operation with my #2 rule - "don't break the bosses expensive machine". carry on At-Man....... But I remember my old friend Roger.......
I also have a student who just bought a used Fadal 3016 and is starting his own business while working at the job shop. There is still a ton of Fadal out there and they approached the small shop owner like Haas did back in the day. I had worked at a Big Japanese brands dealer in special projects dept to build turn key. We sold Matsuura and Mori Seiki. Matsuura 500 in 86 that sold for 99K and all of them that came in were pre sold - that's how hot CNC was. So Fadal built a non Fanuc machine to lower cost and wa la.........a big hit
Nice, I love my Fadal, price was right, and when taken care of they are good machines. Always a good approach to not break the machine, even if you own it!
Very interesting. One reason I like Heidenhain controllers so much in comparison to Fadal and others is that all the positioning calculations and programming is done inside the main unit. The encoders plug into the main unit and all the i/o is within the main unit..only wires that go out are screen, operators terminal, analogue command to the drives MPG, limit switches and an i/o cable to the break out board for things such as tool changers and clamps. The advantage is that if the old drives and motors die you can fit modern intelligent drives such as Yaskawa or Mitsubishi and set them to analogue speed mode so they regulate the motor speed only..then use the old encoders which go straight to the main unit for the position loop.
It might be one main box, but most of the older controllers have multiple processors in them. Running that many control loops plus calculate the G code moves is fairly intensive. Even with today's processors many device split the tasks between separate processors.
Another neat thing on the Heidenhain is that programs from the very earliest units will run on the latest models..the controller updates the program and overwrites any obsolete code. Also Heidenhain will do service exchange on all parts within a week..fairly expensive but if the machine is making big money it's well worth it. All the cables can be ordered and are ready made to the part number stamped on the cable which relates to length type etc..Plus all Heidenhain controllers come with conversational programming as standard (Dialog) and the PLC data can be saved to a hard drive as well as stored on EEPROMS on the main board. Each control is designed with a complete test kits for the service techs..to test encoders..ports, connectors and all the pendant keys one by one.. Not knocking the Fadal by any means..it's amazing what the brothers achieved and great to see the control still working and with it being able to be modernized so easily that is just brilliant.
Thanks for the video. Looks like old Fadal controls are more complicated to work on than old Haas controls, although it's obvious that Fadal paid more attention to detail on the neatness of the wiring throughout the cabinet.
LOL, hey a resistor is a resistor. Most likely used for regen on the VFD if I had to guess. I don't have anything against any machine, they have there place in the market. If they didn't they would not be cranking machines out like they do. I find most people that are disappointed in a machine tool had unrealistic expectations going in. Tormach for example, you can't buy one, put a 3" face mill in it, and get mad you can't run it at 100 IPM, 100% step over, and 0.125" depth of cut.
We have an older Haas with 'real' regen resistors and if they ever needed to be replaced, Haas charges over $900 for all of them (super high markup, I know). I think I'd prefer the stovetop element newer machines have just because it would be pretty easy to find a replacement.
That is nuts! No way regen resistors are that much! High quality, wire wound, ceramic resistors should not be more then $100. And that is for 2kw power! You really don't need that much power dissipation for the regen resistors on a CNC. The only time you generate regen is during deceleration, which is a short event. Just look on your existing ones and see what the Ohms are and the power rating. You can order them from many places.
At-Man Unlimited Machining Yes, I know it is nuts! I'd imagine they need to be a specific size to bolt into the cage on the enclosure. Are the physical sizes standardized? Regarding the power dissipation, I'm not sure how much is needed. I know Haas uses them for axis deceleration as well as the spindle. And during the summer, they've gotten hot enough to throw an alarm, so I added a fan on top of the box they're in.
Fadal machines suffered from temperature instability and needed glass scales and chillers to minimize position repeatability errors within .0005, which made them inadequate for machining within +/-.0002, last time I run one was back in 1991, I supposed they have overcome the shortcomings by now, still a decent machine for general light type of work.
Yes, it is not realistic to think they can hold 0.0002". Fadal did make some machines that have chilled screws but they had issues leaking and most people disconnected them. The glass scales are not the best either due to there placement. But as long as you warm the machine up and keep it under a reasonable load you can get pretty good tolerances. Ball Bar testing has shown my machine has a total positional tolerance of just under 0.001". The bigger issue with my machine is the abbe error in X due to the saddle design. You can't really complain much for getting a 0.001" machine with 10HP continuous for well under 20K though.
How about I have a problem with my machine, it is a fadal vmc 3016 when I turn it on, the motors do not activate, therefore I cannot move it before, the same thing had happened, only turning it off and on activated the motors, you could help
Hey man, I'm LOVING these videos. My company just bought an old (1996) 6030 HT and I'm having problem with startup. When I jumper across J2 on the CPU board, it goes into diagnostics and I get a failure on the Test Clocks function. it reads "INT6 -FAILED-" Is there anyway you know of to diagnose this specific problem other than replacing the clock board? Thanks again for all the content!!! -g
Hi, I have a memory corrupted error shown on the screen, In FADAL VMC 4020, i have already done several things such as zeroed memory, SETP completely and backlash due to ZERO-OUT MEMORY settings, I remplace the lythium battery, but still showing this message “Unrecoverable memory error at DE9E” Befare that showed this “Unrecoverable memory error at 2614” And sometimes shows this message “You have a version upgrade or Memory has been corrupted” Memory needs to zeroed Could you help me on this please?
Hi At-Man, i am from Argentina, and i bought a Fadal TRM 2003 with everything working perfectly but the servo motors. I have 2 choices, one is to buy the servo motors and replace them and the other option is the one i am doing is putting all new cnc controller and servos. Since i choose the upgrade path i have a lot of used spares i want to sell because they work perfectly and i wont be using them, do you know someone that could need o sell used electronic in perfect conditions? If you want a video or photos or anything please ask me. If any one that reads this comment wants anything i will ship international, It would be easier if someone buys all toghether: CPU+Power Sources+Controller Cards+Servo Drives+Spindle Drive+Screen+Keyboard+All the HMI cabinet basically: All BUT the servo motors (AC). Thank for all the videos, i bought a Fadal because of them, and because i saw how easy to maintain is. Hope you keep doing them, very nice work. Thanks
Hello, does the machine have a memory expansion board? I already have 2 full sets of boards plus extra drives so I think I'm all set. Send me an email with what type of price range your thinking and I can forward it to a few people, include some pics and dash number of boards. Thanks!
Hey there! love your videos and watch them like crazy tons great info. you mentioned how running a industrial CNC machine on anbrinos and gecko drives is a terrible idea. I just received a free fryer MB-11 bed Mill that they parted out all the electronics on but the rest is complete and in great shape. can you please do a video on explaining what kind of controllers are out there for retrofitting an industrial machine and what types of servos to look for? As well as how to do things like size them correctly I was planning on going with DMM Tech servos and a masso controller board. Id really like to go with a Siemens Sinumerik 840d but they are too rich for my blood.
There is a large market of servo motors and controllers. CNC controllers is a bit smaller but there is a pretty wide range of retro controllers. I just don't recommend putting stepper motors and an open source controller on a larger machine. You will spend more time fixing and tinkering then actually machining. As for drive sizing I would look up the specs of the motors that came on the machine and just duplicate. Sizing motors correctly is actually pretty detailed process. Good luck with the machine!
Hey i have a problem with my 6030 fadal i just bought it and connected leveled and preparer and at the first try i made a circle and a square and they are both bigger than they should say if i program a 3x3 square the actual size is 3.872 x 3.872 So do you have any advise where to start looking ?
We have a 1995 4020 HT with DC and the analoge command signal is used (for the AXIS amps) where you say the CLOCK is going....so maybe u mixed up there something.
I am now elbow deep in this stuff.... See the EMAIL I sent. Once I had to replace the D/A IC on an axis controller board (I guess ESD got it fried somehow)
Thanks a lot Tim! Got the cards swapped this morning. Keep up the great work on the videos, they are an excellent guide to maintaining and understanding Fadal machines. The company I work at uses Fadals exclusively so these videos are invaluable, thank you for creating them.
Why not move to LinuxCNC and Mesa hardware? Also, it's bugging me , and being a former 3D graphics programmer I gotta point it out. Axes == plural, axis == singular, not axee.
Hi Pete, Time and cost. I can just plug these boards in and they should work. A retro fit would be a fair amount of work. I'm also not sold on the linux based open source controllers. They are great for a hobby machine but you see very few true VMC's running with them. If I was going to go a custom retro fit route, personally, I would just put an NI compact RIO in the machine and develop the code my self to almost run completely in FPGA. I can close loops in that hardware 10-50 times faster then Linux CNC. I have already been tinkering with the code here and there, just comes down to time.
Well, the Mesa hardware is just that, an FPGA, it's closing the loop and controlling all the drives. They use Xilinx FPGAS and the firmware is open source. Also, I guess we'll find out how that works out when I finish scraping. I did a fair amount of research when planning my retrofit, and that's the direction I chose. The only reason I'm asking is because you've obviously got a lot of time in this, and electrical expertise, it seems right up your alley. This is the board I'm using. Check it out. store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69_62&product_id=300
Yes that is on the smaller end of the Spartan 6 family of FPGA's. Do you have any analog IO needs or are you connecting with all digital devices? What drives are you using? Yes, I have done a lot of complex and large control systems, which is why I would most likely do my own thing if I ever did something. I have a lot of the code already for control. Only the G code interpretation is really needed. The only piece that I don't like about the Linux CNC is that the PC or main controller is still generating the position command data and then sending it to the FPGA. I would really like to see that be done on a co processor or better actually on the FPGA. The issue is you need a larger (read more $$$$) FPGA to handle the trig functions needed to take arc commands and calculate the points over time. I also don't know how well there control code is actually implemented, never dug into it. Almost anyone can do a PID loop now, the trick with machine control is to get all the AXES synced. Then do it at 100 or 400 IPM, not 10 IPM. That is where the black magic of look ahead, feed forward, and all kinds of tricks come into play. Send me an email and let me know how you make out and your user experience. I don't know anyone personally that has used Linux CNC yet.
LinuxCNC's source code is full of code comments like "I'm not sure what this part of the code is doing". I'd trust Fadal over that anytime for any critical execution of code. I've had my fairshare of programming embedded controllers, both in C and plural of asm code (m68, avr, pic, mips, x86 and arm)and the LinuxCNC source code is just a mess. I have a never ending project to clone Heidenhain TNC 155A controller for my Bridgeport. I'm aiming it to be more modern (more CPU power, more memory, more faster). I really like the Heidenhain controller. :) At the moment I'm basing it on STM32f746 processor, a 216MHz Arm(Thumb2) beast and Spartan6 FPGA('s). I think ST will announce a new 400MHz version very soon.
Wouldn't getting it wet do damage also? I would think even just a sealed ziploc could condensate enough to ruin a board, let alone with a wet rag in it.
Hi John, I'm not sure I would try that my self. Static bags and cheap and easy to get. Moisture could end up soaking into any unprotected parts causing parasitic resistance and capacitance issues.
Antistatic bags are pretty easy to come by. If you had to you could wrap in aluminum foil. Damp paper is not a good idea it will cause water condensation on the boards/parts damage the boards and damage. It's important to use the anti-static measures demonstrated in the video whenever handling any boards like these.
My understanding is that that serial port on the communications board (the one that goes to a small PC) on 32MP type systems is actually an RS422 port and not an RS 232 port. Although I see people referring to it in the forums as RS232. Is this correct? or do some board versions have a different type of serial port or are they internally jumperable to somehow not be RS422? I'm trying to bring up a replacement PC for one of these and My understanding is that it has to be an RS422 port to talk to it. And from the looks of the old ISA card that is in the failed PC this is what it was. The what I think to be an RS422 card doesn't exist on google anywhere and has a 9 pin DB-9 female so not a standard PC serial connector. They use this with something called "Fadal Memory Manager" running in Windows 95/98 to talk to the machine via serial.
I would think it is RS232, but I have never worked on a 32MP, just the 88HS controllers. Best way to find out is to measure the voltage and look for termination resistors.
Thanks! I'll also investigate the 88HS systems. Everything over here seems to be RS422. The cards are ancient ISA cards In the PCs and there's NO documentation easily found online for the particular cards. I'[m finding things out as I go and ultimately finding out if I can run this stuff on Windows 7 on newer tiny hardware that will fit in the pendant (as they call it). If you'd like I'll keep you informed and share info. As of new they have to run ancient hard to find hardware. They run a little program called Fadal memory manager in windows 95/98 that seems to do everything they need to make the machine access files on the local computer be them on the network or copied from the network to the local hard disk. I have no clue if this is using some form of DNC or if it's entirely different. I'll eventually have more of a handle on it. Are you at all familiar with the Windows based Fadal Memory manager program? They call it the "penguin program" on the forums because of it's embedded icon LOL.
thanks for all the info, we have a 4020 with a low voltage on 2 resolver lines x,z get .1 volts and y get 1.7 volts, i swapped the motor across x and z and the good voltage follows the motors, the other 2 motors were replaced with ones from another machine but the results are the same, the "bad" motors work just fine on the other machine so i have no idea whats going on, all cards were replaced as well as the amps and power supply and it still doesn't work. any ideas on what it could be? thanks in advance.
It could be a broken wire somewhere. The resolver is excited from the 1060 board, J1, 2, and 3. Then the feedback that your measuring is at each servo card. Could be an issue with the excitation or the feedback. I would start at the 1060 board and see if it is outputting the correct excitation and then work from there.
My question is why not gut the electronics and replace them with modern electronics. Maybe that is what Gcardinal and pete brubaker are talking about. Im a hobbiest. I knew nothing, had little money to finance the hobby, but wanted to make my computer more useful than a gaming platform. So I got a pm 25mv and Mach3. I am learning a lot, but am so dissapointed in accuracy, repeatability, and machining volume. I'd love to marry a VMC for the volume and rigidity and pc based controls with servo motors and accurate scales for positional feedback. Is anybody doing this successfully?
Hello Robert, I would only upgrade to another industrial controller or something I make my self. It is more of a cost issue then anything. CNC controllers are fairly expensive and the original Fadal boards work just fine. PC based controllers are not really a good option. Windows is horrible for not being deterministic and stable, Linux is better, but standard Linux was not designed to be deterministic either. You really need a purpose built embedded control system to accurately and reliably control a machine. I do very complex machine control solutions for my day job. There are very few people that have tried to put PC type controls on a larger commercial machine for those reasons. PC bases systems will mostly work at the hobbyist level, but at the commercial level I need to make the part correct the first time. You don't want your PC based control crashing on a $10,000 casting.
How to adjust the potentiometers on the axis card see www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/tech_docs_1/Maintenance_Manual/Axis_Drive_Systems.pdf. Page 191 for DC or 201 for AC. I have done the procedure with AC cards using blinking leds, it is pretty easy.
At-Man, I am piecing together a 4th axis from spare parts and stuff i get from e-bay. I need to install a overload relay for the axis. i see from your video that you have one on your machine. would you be so kind as to give me the allen bradley number off of it. If i had that number i can get one from e-bay for about 8 bux vs. buying ELE-143 from ITS for $140.00 Thanx , Ray p.s. I am using amp 21 so i would be intrested to know what size heater to use with the amp i am using. , it looks like the amp 6 uses heater w47 and the amp21 uses the W54 ???
as i stated in my previous post i think the amp 21 uses the w54 and the amp 6 uses the w47 . I need the one for the amp 21.thsts why i need the numbers from yours to help me eliminate one or the other
I understand. I knew you were plenty capable and there must be one or a couple of reasons, being as hard to find and expensive as it is. I didn't think of getting sued, I could see for maybe for the processor board but I wouldn't have thought about that for memory especially if you are just using it for yourself. What's the difference between that and hooking up a calmotion you're just adding memory right =) or the difference from doing that and the other recent hardware endeavour? Actually I would think that would be less frowned upon considering it isn't even made any longer, hell the patents probably ran out on that thing long ago anyway LOL. In my opinion Fadal should probably be writing you a check if anything.hahaha That was a great video Tim.
I understand. I knew you were plenty capable and there must be one or a couple of reasons being as hard as it is to find and as expensive as it is. I didn't think of getting sued, I could see for maybe for the OS board but I wouldn't have thought about that for memory especially if you are just going to use it for yourself. What's the difference between that and hooking up a Calmotion you're just adding memory right =) or the difference from doing that and the other recent hardware endeavor? Actually I would think the memory would be less frowned upon considering it isn't even made any longer, hell the patents probably ran out on that thing long ago anyway LOL. Fadal should probably be cutting you a check if anything or at least hooking you up with merch for doing their repair, service and promo vids for them.hahaha anyway that was a great video Tim. Thanks
Thanks Steve, what I did with the probe was for my own use and not for sale. To make the effort worth while with the memory card I would need to sell them. But I really would not waste my time on the memory card, I would just work on replacing the whole processor board with a plug in replacement with modern chips. The calmotion is just a device that talks to the serial port. It follows an industry standard protocol.
That makes sense. Didn't you say something about your NAS talking to your mill a while back? I know it's not the exact same as in the controller but that's pretty cool! I was just kidding about Calmotion, I have one, that thing works really well, never had an ounce of trouble from it.
It sounds like your planning on swapping out the boards? If so why, my experience is if it works don't mess with it, especially on such only electronics. This brings back memories from the late 80's. I use to be a pc board designer and layout. Design many similar controllers, a lot the layout and tape traces. So simple back then! Dave
Dave, yes, board swap is planned. 3 reasons, first I don't think there is any risk to my existing boards by unplugging them from the card rack and plugging them back in. I have a complete second set of boards except the clock board. Second, its a big jump, from a 286 CPU to a 386 CPU. This should increase the number of arc blocks I can process per second. Currently it is around 100. Last, baud rate over doubles, this greatly increases my 3D profiling rates. Right now I can 3D profile around 50 IPM on average, I think this will get me closer to 100 IPM. Makes the machine more competitive. Side note, I would really like to make sure these boards work, then I know for sure I have my old set as a fall back in case I get into a jam.
Hi, sorry best regards from Ecuador I usually speak spanish. Thanks for your videos, these are a good help for us. I had a problem my fadal machine mill circles whith 0,005 inches oval my servomotors are not balanced
Thank you Hugo, here is a link to the maintenance manual for the axis drives. www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/tech_docs_1/Maintenance_Manual/Axis_Drive_Systems.pdf You will find a specific program to run, then you adjust the gain of the servo drives in the upper section of the controls cabinet. You want to adjust all the drives to the same amount of error that is called out in the manual.
That manual is sweet - thanks for the link, Tim. Do you know where I can get schematics of the boards? As an EE, so much easier for me to troubleshoot and adjust using them. Also - having a problem on a 1995 DC machine 15XT with random overshoot in -Z direction of up to 40 mils at high feedrates...at slow I get none. I was thinking about changing out the linear rails (servo, resolver, ballscrew, thrust bearing have all been replaced), but to blind-stab troubleshoot it I don't want to throw $1400 at a set of genuine rails and trucks (like the prior owner did with the ballscrew that was good). Do you know the type of rail so I can cross reference it to a Chinesium rail set? If it cures the problem for a couple hundred (or less) $, THEN I'd get a set from the usual FADAL sources (because there's no way I'd run the machine on that crap). thanks!
I'm a (long ago) EE who has found himself in control of a 4020A, has not been an engineer since the F-16 program in the mid '80s. and is now needing to to suck up as much Fusion 360 and machining knowledge as possible to make production quality parts in a matter of weeks... and your videos have been extremely helpful! So, I wanted to say thank you for doing this, but also tell you what you may have heard many times before... that you are a natural teacher... should have been a professor somewhere (although maybe you are or have been...I guess I really don't know). It's a gift few people have. Anyway...I make it a habit of letting people know of the good that they do in this world.
Wow! I'm totally blown away by your videos! I am a Computer network IT guy Self employed for 20 years now. I have clients who have had these machines for years. up to this point I have only ever worked a little with the PCs that are in these and working with make sure they can talk to network shares on the LAN etc. More recently they had some failures and I'm starting to get a little more involved. I have an electronics background so am absolutely comfortable jumping into these a little deeper than I ever have in the past.
Thanks for all the work you have put into these videos it is excellent information and I'm miles ahead in my understanding of helping take care of the electronics in these machines than I was one day ago and for the past 20 years.
Thanks!
I would also point our LinuxCNC as a major option. All machines sold by Tormach are based on PathPilot (older fork of LinuxCNC). The biggest benefit of LinuxCNC is ability to have full unlimited control of all aspects of electronics in a machine - in an really economical way. And with good motherboard (I use GA-H81M-HD3) bundled with Mesa cards there is no interruption to worry about. Also stepper / servo drivers has come a really long way since 1985. So end result will most certainly give a better real world end result.
PathPilot and the way Tormach controls there machines, combined with price point were the main reasons for not purchasing one. Linux CNC is great for hobbyists but in my opinion it will never be able to compete with a purpose built controller. For the motor drives most machines use 3rd party drives. Fadal used a lot of Glentek drives. There will be videos about motors and drives coming.
Thank you for the answer! I still don't quite understand what are the real world differences are - if you could do a short video about this topic it would be great.
Your Welcome, I will add that one to the list, it has become a long list though, might be a bit.
VERY WELL DONE! For a Tool & Die it is like drinking from a fire hydrant. It is so well explained. Thanks
Whoa, my head hurts. Overload of electrical engineer speak, no oil, grease or skinned knuckles involved, Tim another good one. I think I learned something, but I won't admit to my mechanical buddies.
Your secrete is safe with us John ;) I'll share one of our secretes, we kept scraping up our hands on the bottom side of through hole boards, so now everything is surface mount! Problem solved :)
Hello Sir Keep going the world need to learn..All of us around who made thorugh the pandemic would never again take for granted the oppurtunity to learn to make lives better.
Hey Tim,
Love your channel! found it after purchasing my first Fadal (1999 3016L A/C) your videos have helped me so much!! Thanks a ton!!!
I've purchased a second machine a (4th axis ready 1996 4020 DC with cool power and 10K head) I did however break one of your rules when buying a used machine in that it was not under power. For me the price was worth the risk as this machine was close to my shop and the owner had to sell ASAP. This machine is SUPER clean. Owner claims to have had it in storage for 10+ years unused and that it was only used a few years for prototyping mag parts. I'm guessing there in lies the issue(s) After confirming the transformer config was right for my voltage I threw the switch. The fan power up like my other machine, I pushed the CNC power button and the control does not start. The axis control boards power up and their LEDs are flashing. However the clear relays are not lit and the control panel is not powered. Any Advice?
Thanks
Kevin
Hello Kevin, thanks for the feedback.
I would start checking fuses first. There are a ton of them peppered all over these machines.
Make sure all the taps on the secondary of the main transformer are at the proper voltages.
Please be careful, if you don't have an electrical background I would highly advise a service tech. There is a deadly amount of power in there, keep arc flash in mind as well.
Thank you! I will start there.
10+ years unused, the battery must already be dead. You need to do memory procedure.
back when I was in Manchester NH at Lockheed Plant we had many machines - one of them a Fadal with CNC 88 - One of our machinists Roger Levequse had a hobby of board repair and could keep that Fadal running.
That is the plan! Swap out the bad one and repair hopefully.
I use some of your videos for Fadal training. I used to work for a Fadal Dealer back in 1988 plus we did CNC Retrofits with Delta Controls. I try to teach many machines so that you will be employable in many places. I learned to "learn" other machines and it gave me confidence to approach a new machine with the ability to learn it based on what I already knew. I would always practice safe operation with my #2 rule - "don't break the bosses expensive machine". carry on At-Man....... But I remember my old friend Roger.......
I also have a student who just bought a used Fadal 3016 and is starting his own business while working at the job shop. There is still a ton of Fadal out there and they approached the small shop owner like Haas did back in the day. I had worked at a Big Japanese brands dealer in special projects dept to build turn key. We sold Matsuura and Mori Seiki. Matsuura 500 in 86 that sold for 99K and all of them that came in were pre sold - that's how hot CNC was. So Fadal built a non Fanuc machine to lower cost and wa la.........a big hit
Nice, I love my Fadal, price was right, and when taken care of they are good machines. Always a good approach to not break the machine, even if you own it!
Very interesting. One reason I like Heidenhain controllers so much in comparison to Fadal and others is that all the positioning calculations and programming is done inside the main unit. The encoders plug into the main unit and all the i/o is within the main unit..only wires that go out are screen, operators terminal, analogue command to the drives MPG, limit switches and an i/o cable to the break out board for things such as tool changers and clamps. The advantage is that if the old drives and motors die you can fit modern intelligent drives such as Yaskawa or Mitsubishi and set them to analogue speed mode so they regulate the motor speed only..then use the old encoders which go straight to the main unit for the position loop.
It might be one main box, but most of the older controllers have multiple processors in them. Running that many control loops plus calculate the G code moves is fairly intensive. Even with today's processors many device split the tasks between separate processors.
Another neat thing on the Heidenhain is that programs from the very earliest units will run on the latest models..the controller updates the program and overwrites any obsolete code. Also Heidenhain will do service exchange on all parts within a week..fairly expensive but if the machine is making big money it's well worth it. All the cables can be ordered and are ready made to the part number stamped on the cable which relates to length type etc..Plus all Heidenhain controllers come with conversational programming as standard (Dialog) and the PLC data can be saved to a hard drive as well as stored on EEPROMS on the main board.
Each control is designed with a complete test kits for the service techs..to test encoders..ports, connectors and all the pendant keys one by one..
Not knocking the Fadal by any means..it's amazing what the brothers achieved and great to see the control still working and with it being able to be modernized so easily that is just brilliant.
Thanks for the video. Looks like old Fadal controls are more complicated to work on than old Haas controls, although it's obvious that Fadal paid more attention to detail on the neatness of the wiring throughout the cabinet.
I have not seen an older Haas cabinet so I can't really comment on that. But the Fadal is not bad at all.
LOL, hey a resistor is a resistor. Most likely used for regen on the VFD if I had to guess. I don't have anything against any machine, they have there place in the market. If they didn't they would not be cranking machines out like they do. I find most people that are disappointed in a machine tool had unrealistic expectations going in. Tormach for example, you can't buy one, put a 3" face mill in it, and get mad you can't run it at 100 IPM, 100% step over, and 0.125" depth of cut.
We have an older Haas with 'real' regen resistors and if they ever needed to be replaced, Haas charges over $900 for all of them (super high markup, I know). I think I'd prefer the stovetop element newer machines have just because it would be pretty easy to find a replacement.
That is nuts! No way regen resistors are that much! High quality, wire wound, ceramic resistors should not be more then $100. And that is for 2kw power! You really don't need that much power dissipation for the regen resistors on a CNC. The only time you generate regen is during deceleration, which is a short event. Just look on your existing ones and see what the Ohms are and the power rating. You can order them from many places.
At-Man Unlimited Machining Yes, I know it is nuts! I'd imagine they need to be a specific size to bolt into the cage on the enclosure. Are the physical sizes standardized? Regarding the power dissipation, I'm not sure how much is needed. I know Haas uses them for axis deceleration as well as the spindle. And during the summer, they've gotten hot enough to throw an alarm, so I added a fan on top of the box they're in.
Fadal machines suffered from temperature instability and needed glass scales and chillers to minimize position repeatability errors within .0005, which made them inadequate for machining within +/-.0002, last time I run one was back in 1991, I supposed they have overcome the shortcomings by now, still a decent machine for general light type of work.
Yes, it is not realistic to think they can hold 0.0002". Fadal did make some machines that have chilled screws but they had issues leaking and most people disconnected them. The glass scales are not the best either due to there placement. But as long as you warm the machine up and keep it under a reasonable load you can get pretty good tolerances. Ball Bar testing has shown my machine has a total positional tolerance of just under 0.001". The bigger issue with my machine is the abbe error in X due to the saddle design. You can't really complain much for getting a 0.001" machine with 10HP continuous for well under 20K though.
Great video I didn't know about the static electricity. Very informative I would like to know how an encoder works. Just a thought!
The intro is killing me. Lol
Another great one Tim!
How about I have a problem with my machine, it is a fadal vmc 3016 when I turn it on, the motors do not activate, therefore I cannot move it before, the same thing had happened, only turning it off and on activated the motors, you could help
Hey man, I'm LOVING these videos. My company just bought an old (1996) 6030 HT and I'm having problem with startup. When I jumper across J2 on the CPU board, it goes into diagnostics and I get a failure on the Test Clocks function. it reads "INT6 -FAILED-" Is there anyway you know of to diagnose this specific problem other than replacing the clock board?
Thanks again for all the content!!!
-g
Hi, I have a memory corrupted error shown on the screen, In FADAL VMC 4020, i have already done several things such as zeroed memory, SETP completely and backlash due to ZERO-OUT MEMORY settings, I remplace the lythium battery, but still showing this message
“Unrecoverable memory error at DE9E”
Befare that showed this
“Unrecoverable memory error at 2614”
And sometimes shows this message
“You have a version upgrade or Memory has been corrupted”
Memory needs to zeroed
Could you help me on this please?
Hi At-Man, i am from Argentina, and i bought a Fadal TRM 2003 with everything working perfectly but the servo motors. I have 2 choices, one is to buy the servo motors and replace them and the other option is the one i am doing is putting all new cnc controller and servos. Since i choose the upgrade path i have a lot of used spares i want to sell because they work perfectly and i wont be using them, do you know someone that could need o sell used electronic in perfect conditions? If you want a video or photos or anything please ask me. If any one that reads this comment wants anything i will ship international, It would be easier if someone buys all toghether: CPU+Power Sources+Controller Cards+Servo Drives+Spindle Drive+Screen+Keyboard+All the HMI cabinet basically: All BUT the servo motors (AC). Thank for all the videos, i bought a Fadal because of them, and because i saw how easy to maintain is. Hope you keep doing them, very nice work. Thanks
Hello, does the machine have a memory expansion board? I already have 2 full sets of boards plus extra drives so I think I'm all set. Send me an email with what type of price range your thinking and I can forward it to a few people, include some pics and dash number of boards. Thanks!
Hey there!
love your videos and watch them like crazy tons great info. you mentioned how running a industrial CNC machine on anbrinos and gecko drives is a terrible idea. I just received a free fryer MB-11 bed Mill that they parted out all the electronics on but the rest is complete and in great shape. can you please do a video on explaining what kind of controllers are out there for retrofitting an industrial machine and what types of servos to look for? As well as how to do things like size them correctly I was planning on going with DMM Tech servos and a masso controller board. Id really like to go with a Siemens Sinumerik 840d but they are too rich for my blood.
There is a large market of servo motors and controllers. CNC controllers is a bit smaller but there is a pretty wide range of retro controllers. I just don't recommend putting stepper motors and an open source controller on a larger machine. You will spend more time fixing and tinkering then actually machining. As for drive sizing I would look up the specs of the motors that came on the machine and just duplicate. Sizing motors correctly is actually pretty detailed process. Good luck with the machine!
Hey i have a problem with my 6030 fadal i just bought it and connected leveled and preparer and at the first try i made a circle and a square and they are both bigger than they should say if i program a 3x3 square the actual size is 3.872 x 3.872
So do you have any advise where to start looking ?
We have a 1995 4020 HT with DC and the analoge command signal is used (for the AXIS amps) where you say the CLOCK is going....so maybe u mixed up there something.
You are correct, that is for the analog to the drive amp. The clock of the resolver comes over the backplane. Sorry for the confusion.
I am now elbow deep in this stuff.... See the EMAIL I sent. Once I had to replace the D/A IC on an axis controller board (I guess ESD got it fried somehow)
Hi sir hope ur fine
My cnc 88hs machines keyboard is not working can u give me the solution.
Dose the machine recharge the battery to keep it working? tks.
Hey Tim, where should I hook up the ESD wrist band on my maching? I'm swapping amplifiers and I'm not sure where to hook it up.
Any chassis ground works. There was a bonding ground wire between the door and the cabinet I just clipped it there.
Thanks a lot Tim! Got the cards swapped this morning. Keep up the great work on the videos, they are an excellent guide to maintaining and understanding Fadal machines. The company I work at uses Fadals exclusively so these videos are invaluable, thank you for creating them.
Awesome, your welcome!
Why not move to LinuxCNC and Mesa hardware? Also, it's bugging me , and being a former 3D graphics programmer I gotta point it out. Axes == plural, axis == singular, not axee.
Hi Pete, Time and cost. I can just plug these boards in and they should work. A retro fit would be a fair amount of work. I'm also not sold on the linux based open source controllers. They are great for a hobby machine but you see very few true VMC's running with them. If I was going to go a custom retro fit route, personally, I would just put an NI compact RIO in the machine and develop the code my self to almost run completely in FPGA. I can close loops in that hardware 10-50 times faster then Linux CNC. I have already been tinkering with the code here and there, just comes down to time.
No worries, I never claimed to be an English major ;) I get other words mixed up as well.
Well, the Mesa hardware is just that, an FPGA, it's closing the loop and controlling all the drives. They use Xilinx FPGAS and the firmware is open source. Also, I guess we'll find out how that works out when I finish scraping. I did a fair amount of research when planning my retrofit, and that's the direction I chose. The only reason I'm asking is because you've obviously got a lot of time in this, and electrical expertise, it seems right up your alley.
This is the board I'm using. Check it out.
store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69_62&product_id=300
Yes that is on the smaller end of the Spartan 6 family of FPGA's. Do you have any analog IO needs or are you connecting with all digital devices? What drives are you using? Yes, I have done a lot of complex and large control systems, which is why I would most likely do my own thing if I ever did something. I have a lot of the code already for control. Only the G code interpretation is really needed. The only piece that I don't like about the Linux CNC is that the PC or main controller is still generating the position command data and then sending it to the FPGA. I would really like to see that be done on a co processor or better actually on the FPGA. The issue is you need a larger (read more $$$$) FPGA to handle the trig functions needed to take arc commands and calculate the points over time. I also don't know how well there control code is actually implemented, never dug into it. Almost anyone can do a PID loop now, the trick with machine control is to get all the AXES synced. Then do it at 100 or 400 IPM, not 10 IPM. That is where the black magic of look ahead, feed forward, and all kinds of tricks come into play. Send me an email and let me know how you make out and your user experience. I don't know anyone personally that has used Linux CNC yet.
LinuxCNC's source code is full of code comments like "I'm not sure what this part of the code is doing". I'd trust Fadal over that anytime for any critical execution of code.
I've had my fairshare of programming embedded controllers, both in C and plural of asm code (m68, avr, pic, mips, x86 and arm)and the LinuxCNC source code is just a mess.
I have a never ending project to clone Heidenhain TNC 155A controller for my Bridgeport. I'm aiming it to be more modern (more CPU power, more memory, more faster). I really like the Heidenhain controller. :)
At the moment I'm basing it on STM32f746 processor, a 216MHz Arm(Thumb2) beast and Spartan6 FPGA('s).
I think ST will announce a new 400MHz version very soon.
You can transport static sensitive board's by wrapping board in damp newspaper and placed in a zip bag.
Wouldn't getting it wet do damage also? I would think even just a sealed ziploc could condensate enough to ruin a board, let alone with a wet rag in it.
Steve just Steve I said damp.
Hi John, I'm not sure I would try that my self. Static bags and cheap and easy to get. Moisture could end up soaking into any unprotected parts causing parasitic resistance and capacitance issues.
Antistatic bags are pretty easy to come by.
If you had to you could wrap in aluminum foil.
Damp paper is not a good idea it will cause water condensation on the boards/parts damage the boards and damage.
It's important to use the anti-static measures demonstrated in the video whenever handling any boards like these.
My understanding is that that serial port on the communications board (the one that goes to a small PC) on 32MP type systems is actually an RS422 port and not an RS 232 port.
Although I see people referring to it in the forums as RS232.
Is this correct? or do some board versions have a different type of serial port or are they
internally jumperable to somehow not be RS422?
I'm trying to bring up a replacement PC for one of these and My understanding is that
it has to be an RS422 port to talk to it.
And from the looks of the old ISA card that is in the failed PC this is what it was.
The what I think to be an RS422 card doesn't exist on google anywhere and has a 9 pin
DB-9 female so not a standard PC serial connector.
They use this with something called "Fadal Memory Manager" running in Windows 95/98 to talk to the machine via serial.
I would think it is RS232, but I have never worked on a 32MP, just the 88HS controllers. Best way to find out is to measure the voltage and look for termination resistors.
Thanks! I'll also investigate the 88HS systems.
Everything over here seems to be RS422.
The cards are ancient ISA cards In the PCs and there's NO documentation easily found online for the particular cards.
I'[m finding things out as I go and ultimately finding out if I can run this stuff on Windows 7 on newer tiny hardware that will fit in the pendant (as they call it).
If you'd like I'll keep you informed and share info.
As of new they have to run ancient hard to find hardware.
They run a little program called Fadal memory manager in windows 95/98 that seems to do everything they need to make the machine access files on the local computer be them on the network or copied from the network to the local hard disk.
I have no clue if this is using some form of DNC or if it's entirely different.
I'll eventually have more of a handle on it.
Are you at all familiar with the Windows based Fadal Memory manager program?
They call it the "penguin program" on the forums because of it's embedded icon LOL.
Please do, I can make some videos if you take some pictures.
thanks for all the info, we have a 4020 with a low voltage on 2 resolver lines x,z get .1 volts and y get 1.7 volts, i swapped the motor across x and z and the good voltage follows the motors, the other 2 motors were replaced with ones from another machine but the results are the same, the "bad" motors work just fine on the other machine so i have no idea whats going on, all cards were replaced as well as the amps and power supply and it still doesn't work. any ideas on what it could be? thanks in advance.
It could be a broken wire somewhere. The resolver is excited from the 1060 board, J1, 2, and 3. Then the feedback that your measuring is at each servo card. Could be an issue with the excitation or the feedback. I would start at the 1060 board and see if it is outputting the correct excitation and then work from there.
thank you, i will check that out.
My question is why not gut the electronics and replace them with modern electronics. Maybe that is what Gcardinal and pete brubaker are talking about. Im a hobbiest. I knew nothing, had little money to finance the hobby, but wanted to make my computer more useful than a gaming platform. So I got a pm 25mv and Mach3. I am learning a lot, but am so dissapointed in accuracy, repeatability, and machining volume. I'd love to marry a VMC for the volume and rigidity and pc based controls with servo motors and accurate scales for positional feedback. Is anybody doing this successfully?
Hello Robert, I would only upgrade to another industrial controller or something I make my self. It is more of a cost issue then anything. CNC controllers are fairly expensive and the original Fadal boards work just fine. PC based controllers are not really a good option. Windows is horrible for not being deterministic and stable, Linux is better, but standard Linux was not designed to be deterministic either. You really need a purpose built embedded control system to accurately and reliably control a machine. I do very complex machine control solutions for my day job. There are very few people that have tried to put PC type controls on a larger commercial machine for those reasons. PC bases systems will mostly work at the hobbyist level, but at the commercial level I need to make the part correct the first time. You don't want your PC based control crashing on a $10,000 casting.
How to adjust the potentiometers on the axis card see www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/tech_docs_1/Maintenance_Manual/Axis_Drive_Systems.pdf. Page 191 for DC or 201 for AC. I have done the procedure with AC cards using blinking leds, it is pretty easy.
Hello Yevhen, that procedure is to adjust the pot on the servo drives, not the card in the card file rack.
At-Man, I am piecing together a 4th axis from spare parts and stuff i get from e-bay. I need to install a overload relay for the axis. i see from your video that you have one on your machine. would you be so kind as to give me the allen bradley number off of it. If i had that number i can get one from e-bay for about 8 bux vs. buying ELE-143 from ITS for $140.00 Thanx , Ray p.s. I am using amp 21 so i would be intrested to know what size heater to use with the amp i am using. , it looks like the amp 6 uses heater w47 and the amp21 uses the W54 ???
I can check, do you know which heaters your looking for by number?
as i stated in my previous post i think the amp 21 uses the w54 and the amp 6 uses the w47 . I need the one for the amp 21.thsts why i need the numbers from yours to help me eliminate one or the other
Mine has a W51 heater in it. But that heater is more dependent on the motor that is being used.
ok thats fine , can you give me the allen bradley relay number it looks like a bov -4
maybe a cov
Tim, What prevents someone like you from making your own added memory board?
Three things, Time, ROI, getting sued for some type of copyright or patent infringement.
I understand. I knew you were plenty capable and there must be one or a couple of reasons, being as hard to find and expensive as it is. I didn't think of getting sued, I could see for maybe for the processor board but I wouldn't have thought about that for memory especially if you are just using it for yourself. What's the difference between that and hooking up a calmotion you're just adding memory right =) or the difference from doing that and the other recent hardware endeavour? Actually I would think that would be less frowned upon considering it isn't even made any longer, hell the patents probably ran out on that thing long ago anyway LOL. In my opinion Fadal should probably be writing you a check if anything.hahaha That was a great video Tim.
I understand. I knew you were plenty capable and there must be one or a couple of reasons being as hard as it is to find and as expensive as it is. I didn't think of getting sued, I could see for maybe for the OS board but I wouldn't have thought about that for memory especially if you are just going to use it for yourself. What's the difference between that and hooking up a Calmotion you're just adding memory right =) or the difference from doing that and the other recent hardware endeavor? Actually I would think the memory would be less frowned upon considering it isn't even made any longer, hell the patents probably ran out on that thing long ago anyway LOL. Fadal should probably be cutting you a check if anything or at least hooking you up with merch for doing their repair, service and promo vids for them.hahaha anyway that was a great video Tim. Thanks
Thanks Steve, what I did with the probe was for my own use and not for sale. To make the effort worth while with the memory card I would need to sell them. But I really would not waste my time on the memory card, I would just work on replacing the whole processor board with a plug in replacement with modern chips. The calmotion is just a device that talks to the serial port. It follows an industry standard protocol.
That makes sense. Didn't you say something about your NAS talking to your mill a while back? I know it's not the exact same as in the controller but that's pretty cool! I was just kidding about Calmotion, I have one, that thing works really well, never had an ounce of trouble from it.
Thanks! Have you ever come across 6d boards? Wouldn't mind having a spare.
I have not, I just have -4 and -5 boards
Looking video allready....
Wow that was a INFO BLAST!!!!!
Now that´s way to get views for video,,, I hav to look video at least 10 to get it :-D :-D
Great video Tim !! Thumps UP
+Hippo That's nothing! Did you see the Renishaw vid? Pretty sure that one will stay above my head forever.
LOL, thanks guys, everyone keeps asking for detail, I aim to please!
It sounds like your planning on swapping out the boards? If so why, my experience is if it works don't mess with it, especially on such only electronics. This brings back memories from the late 80's. I use to be a pc board designer and layout. Design many similar controllers, a lot the layout and tape traces. So simple back then! Dave
Dave, yes, board swap is planned. 3 reasons, first I don't think there is any risk to my existing boards by unplugging them from the card rack and plugging them back in. I have a complete second set of boards except the clock board. Second, its a big jump, from a 286 CPU to a 386 CPU. This should increase the number of arc blocks I can process per second. Currently it is around 100. Last, baud rate over doubles, this greatly increases my 3D profiling rates. Right now I can 3D profile around 50 IPM on average, I think this will get me closer to 100 IPM. Makes the machine more competitive. Side note, I would really like to make sure these boards work, then I know for sure I have my old set as a fall back in case I get into a jam.
dear At-Man, could you help me, my fadal machine has the servos¿ motors desbalancing
Not sure I understand what your asking about the servos?
Hi, sorry best regards from Ecuador I usually speak spanish. Thanks for your videos, these are a good help for us. I had a problem my fadal machine mill circles whith 0,005 inches oval my servomotors are not balanced
Thank you Hugo, here is a link to the maintenance manual for the axis drives. www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/tech_docs_1/Maintenance_Manual/Axis_Drive_Systems.pdf You will find a specific program to run, then you adjust the gain of the servo drives in the upper section of the controls cabinet. You want to adjust all the drives to the same amount of error that is called out in the manual.
That manual is sweet - thanks for the link, Tim. Do you know where I can get schematics of the boards? As an EE, so much easier for me to troubleshoot and adjust using them.
Also - having a problem on a 1995 DC machine 15XT with random overshoot in -Z direction of up to 40 mils at high feedrates...at slow I get none. I was thinking about changing out the linear rails (servo, resolver, ballscrew, thrust bearing have all been replaced), but to blind-stab troubleshoot it I don't want to throw $1400 at a set of genuine rails and trucks (like the prior owner did with the ballscrew that was good). Do you know the type of rail so I can cross reference it to a Chinesium rail set? If it cures the problem for a couple hundred (or less) $, THEN I'd get a set from the usual FADAL sources (because there's no way I'd run the machine on that crap). thanks!
I've been serving only fadal CNC for 28 years. Please leave the service information to the professionals.