A Nameless Dread: Understanding Psychotic-Level NPD
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- In this episode, Dr. Ettensohn draws on psychodynamic dimensional models of personality development to describe narcissism and NPD at the psychotic level.
Characterized by compromised reality testing, symbiotic object relations, low integration between parts of the self, and the use of reality-distorting defense mechanisms, psychotic-level NPD represents both the least developmentally mature and most severe form of the disorder.
This episode explains the spectrum of personality development, from psychotic to healthy. It then explains the psychotic personality organization in detail, providing descriptions of specific defense mechanisms utilized at this level. Finally, psychotic-level NPD is described.
References:
Berney, S., de Roten, Y., Beretta, V., Kramer, U., & Despland, J.-N. (2014). Identifying psychotic defenses in a clinical interview. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 70(5), 428-439.
Kernberg, O. F. (1984). Severe personality disorders: Psychotherapeutic strategies. New Haven: Yale University Press.
McWilliams, N. (2011). Psychoanalytic diagnosis: Understanding personality structure in the clinical process (2nd ed.). Guilford Press.
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The model of narcissism/psychological delusion you've described here reminds me of Dostoevsky's characters in The Brother's Karamazov. In very broad strokes, Alyosha moves from neurotic (hyper-religious, isolating, and idealizing) in the first half of the novel to a healthy phycology, but only after the death and 'humiliation' of Elder Zosima (the object of his idealization) and him leaving the monastery (his place of isolation) -- his beautiful speech to the boys after Ilyushka's funeral seems to represent this. Ivan moves in the opposite way, he seems to have a effective personal defense mechanism at the beginning, but he eventually experiences a complete psychotic regression -- goes so far as to start experiencing hallucinations of the devil. Ivan swings between a state of psychopathy and borderline, but at the end of the novel he has a chance to regain a sense of reality, but that really is left up to the reader.
I have 40 pages to go…thank you for reminding me to keep reading ! What a great book. I was unemployed and dealing with a narcissistically abusive wife while reading this; spending time in the sun ( Southern Arizona in the fall/winter ) and reading Dostoevsky helped me a lot I believe.
Excellent review👍👍👍
Your compassionate approach to NPD is so refreshing. Thank you.
Having this disorder is genuinely frightening at times - realising how much of life hasn't been truly real or authentic, and that almost all issues with relationships, parenting, friendships and career are due to defective, maladaptive behaviours and actions. The struggle to feel connection, love and inner peace is exhausting, and many of the feelings and experiences enjoyed by others often seem inaccessible. It can be a very lonely existence, even when around other people.
People with NPD don't want to be bad people, or inflict hurt on anyone. But they sometimes do so because of their fear response, self-esteem, and inner anxiety/turmoil that pervades many parts of their lives and decision making. NPDs are demonised for their destructive behaviours, and there's also so much anti-NPD content online - which means trying to research the condition can unfortunately reinforce an already negative self image and feelings of shame.
But when people realise why we sometimes act like frightened or angry children inside adult bodies (trying to navigate a world that is both confusing and scary), then this horrible condition can be reframed as childhood trauma sometimes being re-enacted on others - rather than premeditated, deliberate acts of aggression or hurt. It doesn't make some of our behaviours acceptable, but its helpful to see NPD as a complex disorder of mind instead of someone with a rational brain that wants to cause harm. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde split personality, which the person has very little control over when triggered. This is what makes life so difficult for partners, children and family members, as they never know who they're going to get (and neither do we...).
As a scapegoated child of a grandiose father, I've come to realise I created a false self a long time ago to cope with and navigate life. Despite telling myself I would never be like him, I repeated many of his behaviours and actions - like a computer program on self destruct (along with many narcissistic collapses and a feeling of mortification which is truly terrifying).
I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone, and the hardest part about becoming self-aware is the realisation of all the damage done, the un-reality of much of our life experience, plus the constant desire to go back and do things differently. My longing to go back and have a normal healthy childhood, and re-live adult life more fully with more love and connection is overwhelming (probably not helped by an NPD's propensity to use fantasy as a coping strategy).
Contrary to popular belief, narcissists do feel regret and guilt, and we do apologise. I also think we are capable of feelings of love and empathy, and that many of us are self-aware for a long time - just not necessarily that we have NPD. Many seek help or read books on anxiety, anger or depression as they know something's not right and they want to change. Many also thrive (as I did) well into their 30's before life's challenges and responsibilities begin to magnify the NPD traits and test our fragile defences. The false self is maladaptive, but it can serve us well - until unfortunately it can't cope with the overwhelm any more.
It's genuinely tragic that people with NPD were traumatised in childhood by the people meant to be their caregivers. Then we can often repeat this traumatisation on others, and as a result we feel even more shame, anxiety, detachment and depression when life unravels, and we realise who we are (and what we've done). Medication and therapy can help, and I think healing/recovery of the inner child and true self is the main goal - assuming it isn't damaged beyond repair. Psychadelics are also showing some therapeutic potential for self compassion, connection, and understanding the subconscious thinking patterns (and hopefully re-wiring some of them).
By far the scariest part of the condition is when you begin to wonder if your false self is all you have in life, and whether your true authentic self can be accessed and integrated. The irony is that after years of feeling special and different to others, what we actually want is to be normal and 'ordinary', and feel the full emotions and human connection so cruely denied to us as children.
This channel is a big help, and I'm so grateful for the time taken to create such insightful content. It means a lot that you understand and empathise with the NPDs complex inner world 🙏
@@stevesherwood2944 thank you so much for such an eloquent description
Very well expressed.
It's very difficult to experience lifelong abuse by a narcissist family member, and subsequently a partner(s), when one can see that the narcissist struggles internally, while making your life, and their life, and their children's lives into a kind of hell.
I feel compassion for someone with NPD; and that makes it extra painful when you have to choose to limit contact, and to quit sharing love, and life, and a sense of family with them.
And thank you for taking the time to write all of this
@@flash_flood_area
Yes, it's such a destructive condition for everyone involved. One of the difficulties is that the early signs can often be diagnosed (and treated) as anxiety, depression, anger issues, or something else. It probably takes a while for a narcissist to become fully self-aware they have NPD, and it's often after a life crisis - when the damage has already been done.
Also, the diagnostic tools (whether via a clinician or online) often focus on the grandiose-type traits, which can lead a covert to think they must have something else wrong with them. Narcissism has long been assumed to present mainly as arrogance and extroverted behaviours, but it's much harder to detect/diagnose with covert/vulnerable types. Coverts also rarely follow through with the discard phase of the relationship cycle (as we fear abandonment), so it's up to others to leave us instead (a situation we paradoxically create, yet do not want...).
My heart goes out to you if you've suffered due to someone with NPD, but I can assure you that we're not as conscious or deliberate in our actions as is often portrayed. It's more like a hijacking of the brain, and an automatic response that's extremely hard to regulate. In our Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde-type split personality, the 'Hyde' is always way more powerful than the 'Jekyll' when activated, and the problem is - the more the negative/destructive aspects are dominant, the harder it becomes to be calm/positive/constructive in our reactions (and hence the cycle continues).
I think if diagnosed early enough, then perhaps couples/family therapy can minimise the fallout and reduce the damage. But proper self-reflection isn't something narcissists do often, unless they're in a life crisis/collapsed state (and need to work out why). It's almost like a form of schizophrenia, which much be confusing (and scary) for loved ones.
It's so sad that the suffering this disorder creates (for everyone affected) was as a result of the people tasked with taking care of us, when we were at the most vulnerable and formative stage of development. But then sadly many disorders of the mind are forged when we are young, and don't fully unravel until the stakes are really high - when partners, children, careers, and other aspects of life are impacted.
@@flash_flood_areaWhy would you shun and isolate someone for having mental challenges? Sounds like 1930s Germany.
Once you are done with this series, can you please give a case study of someone who came out on the other side of the psychotic or borderline level of narcissistic defenses? When you have a lot of people splitting that are the victims it's nice to have a tangible example of the success. To show the timeline someone went through to slowly develop their ego would be fascinating and hopeful to people struggling with this in their life.
A new Heal NPd video droped, let's goooo.
Thank you mister Ettensohn
You’re very welcome! 😊
@@healnpd if you haven't already, I'd be interested in hearing you specifically discuss gaslighting tactics in NPD. I am referring to things like, what are they achieving by throwing a person in a state of shock (crazy-making) and how they're perceiving the person's reaction of pain and hurt. One very common thing is "Fake discarding" where it seems things are going very well but the NPD suddenly rages over a small thing (planned) and then tells the person "it's over!" which leaves someone in shock and deeply hurting. The word seems to be that they are doing it to go cheat, but I've spoken to a diagnosed NPD who told me he would wilfully drive around for hours with nothing to do, just to make his girlfriend think he was cheating. When she'd text him, he'd purposely take a while to respond so it would cause her more anxiety & upsetment. I asked him why he did it and he said "just to piss her off." There was a distinct inability for him to see the severe damage being done nor did he know why it was entertaining to do this. For the partner who may be Codependent, or have attachment anxieties, it can be torture to repeatedly put someone through this kind of trauma. She may lash out in anger, send numerous texts/calls, in a fit of anger, believing he's knowingly inflicting pain. He then makes it appear he's giving the partner "another chance". And holds her at a distance using her response to his gaslighting as a weapon to suggest SHE is the problem.
I don't think anyone is giving any real reason why they're doing this and what's the connection to childhood; whether they know they're risking losing the relationship, and how you would get through to someone who is doing this. I'm tired of hearing "You MUST go no contact!" when they themselves don't even understand the patterns. I would love to hear your assessment on this entire dynamic, in any way you're able to deliver it. You really are the best on youtube in this subject.
Found this channel via a Tumblr post, by what I hear those with NPD tend to be quite approving of this channel.
Dr Ettensohn is merely the best.
@@youtubeuniversity3638 NPD and bpds love to wallo in the mud
Healing NDP toward more human is truly a noble attempt. They'll also thank you if they reach the point of experiencing normal life all its natural colorful glory the universe intended.
I was afraid you had stopped making vids and I'm happy to see you and hear your soothing, friendly, methodical voice again.
Your book helped save my relationship, helped save me. I really can't thank you enough, I practically feel like a person nowadays.
@bluecollarmage4512 - I’m still here. 😊 Glad to know you’ve found my content helpful!
Yessss!!! Thank you for covering the psychotic organisation. Love your content and work Dr Ettensohn. I put your videos on when I'm lonely and spiraling and you bring me closer to stability. Thanks for giving me this resource & reassurance
❤️
For all the attention “Narcissists” get online this channel is massively slept on!
What advice might you give to someone trying to become a psychologist looking to specialize in personality disorders?
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. The only way we truly heal is through compassion. Always speak of compassion first. I'm humbly encouraged for the first time.
Any well explained information like this is desperatly needed for all humanity to study.
Very informative and compassionate video. Thank you Mark for your honest and hopeful video for those dealing with developmental issues. ❤
I very much appreciate what Dr. Ettensohn is doing in this video and what he plans to do with future videos. Again he explains things clearly and with authority but always with compassion. He never strays far away from the idea that people can heal despite their diagnosis or their level of disorder.
I worry about this video. I hope he will post the next one soon. I am active in communities of people who either are diagnosed with NPD or feel that they have characteristics in line with the diagnosis of NPD, but I also see a lot of people who still have a lot of misconceptions about what NPD is. I even witnessed quite a few people who self-diagnose in ways that are not authentic or helpful. I think these people are searching for answers, but are obviously not qualified to make that diagnosis of themselves. It seems like what's being described in this video is rare. It seems like this is at an extreme edge of a spectrum of personality organization that is not saying that often. I would hope that in future videos, he will discuss that. I worry that people are going to pick up on some of the things described in this video and say... Yes! That's me. As a person with diagnosed NPD, I recognize that this is not me. Pieces? Small parts? Absolutely. But I am much more interested in his next video when he will talk about borderline organization. Not to be confused of course with borderline personality disorder.
Let's not forget that he's making these videos to not only help those of us with NPD learn about ourselves and to heal but also to educate the public. Like any clinician, to do his work effectively he has to discuss the topic as a whole. Each of these videos is not meant to be the key that unlocks all of our doors and frees us.
I think if you're watching this video and you haven't watched many of his other videos, I would go back and look at some of the videos where he talks about the overview of NPD and the misconceptions about NPD.
While these videos are incredibly helpful and always crafted in a way that makes it much easier for us to understand these complex issues, they are not a license for us to become therapists or psychologists. Watching the video three or four times and picking up on the terminology doesn't mean we understand it the way that he does.
We are at a crossroads. We are at a moment in time that will not likely be seen again as far as NPD is concerned. Those of us diagnosed with this disorder are not only struggling internally with the healing process but we are also living in a world where we are treated like villains and monsters. And this treatment is tolerated and promoted and exaggerated in order to get likes on social media. Or to sell books or to sell tickets to lectures. It is a time for us who have been diagnosed and for those who have legitimate reasons to believe that they may be showing sign as a pathological narcissism or NPD to stand up for ourselves. To force the world to recognize that we are people with a mental illness that does not define us. Our disorder does not determine our fate or our future. And it is a disorder that can be addressed through therapy and from which we can heal. This entire channel is called HealNPD. More than one professional believes that this is possible. This is one place where you can get help and resources if you want to get better.
@artisaline - Yes, the subject of this video concerns the extreme end of a spectrum. I feel that to understand what is happening at the borderline level, we need to know what is on both sides of the “border.” It is difficult to describe psychotic phenomena precisely because it concerns the sort of experience that self structure and identity are organized to defend against. I tried in this video to emphasize that psychotic organization is a place we have all been early in our development, and tried to explain why it can be so terrifying and reality-distorting. As you said in your comment, borderline experience dips down into the psychotic level at times. It also sometimes pops up into the neurotic level. I’m looking forward to making that next video, but I’m also a little intimidated. Fingers crossed I get it right! 🫡 Thanks for watching.
@@healnpd "Getting it right" isn't a risk at this point. There is so much misinformation out there and so much misunderstanding that everything you say and post is helpful to those of us who are seriously looking for answers and for help. Obviously, it's social media and people can misconstrue anything. But thoughtful examination of NPD from the point of view of a professional who has invested a considerable amount of time and effort into understanding this disorder is always going to be helpful. There is a segment of your audience that rightfully has turned to your channel and to your podcast for help during a time when it feels like no one wants to help us. I look forward to the next video, although I realize these videos are not easy to make and they take time.
@artisaline - Thanks for your feedback. It’s important to keep the bigger picture in mind. I can get a bit lost in my concern about “getting it right,” and it’s no help to anyone if that keeps me from producing helpful content. 🫠
@@healnpd this video confuses me if i could fit into this category, which makes me very anxious. as the former commentor said, we are no professionals to self diagnose. but some of us are looking for answers. that looking for answers for me is partly because of the confusion in my daily life and also former misdiagnosis and unsuccessful treatment. i am aware that i see my projections (probably not always) but deep down it is this existential fear that you mention here. maybe borderline level experiences this aswell ? i wish to talk to somebody about this, who understands this. i probably will talk about this concern to my therapist.
but: still, i want to thank you for all the work you are doing here. i guess a lot of people can relate to the pressure of „getting it right“ - i think its also a complicated topic to an audience who is not from the profession. i think its not easy to make, so thank you for your effort again!
edit: some things you mention i can somehow relate to and some i dont experience at all. and the intensity maybe plays a role as well in term of „diagnosing one self with a particular disorder or personality functioning“. its tricky. one should also be aware if ones personality has splits that makes it difficult to see the whole picture.
@fliegender-teppich - I think it's important to remember that psychological experience can be fluid and that there tends to be overlap between adjacent levels. Borderline psychology can dip down into psychotic experience under heavy stress. It can also pop up into neurotic experience when things are going relatively well. Similarly, neurotic psychologies can drop down into borderline level experience, etc. Try not to think of these in a diagnostic sense so much as a range of functioning where a person’s psychology tends to sit. We also don’t leave the previous levels behind as we develop. They remain as layers of experience that inform perception.
My ex was absolutely psychotic. His eyes would grow wide and he would yell at me for hours making allegations of things I “ planned “ to do to him it was frightening for me it badly affected me all the while he was planning behind my back to betray me . I try to have empathy for people who exhibit NPD but when they harm others especially you it’s difficult
Can you recognize where you fall into this personality organization? Before I healed I was between borderline and neurotic. I’ve now evolved into healthy.
@@michellesecrett1 I didn’t have the issue my ex did i thought he had temporary moments of psychosis it was disturbing 😳. This video is highly accurate he would have these outbursts and breaks when he was under stress normally of persecution he is always a victim he always rewrites events to sympathise with himself including him SA me .
@@isobelangeli2053 yes my Exes eyes would get huge like he just stepped out of a war zone and sometimes he would go crazy and there was no coming down until the next day and then the apologies and love bombing would happen again.
@@maleekenworthy same . I used to even think he had multiple personalities .
@@isobelangeli2053almost all SA perpetrators go psychotic and into victim mode when they SA. Truly willing bold purposeful SA peeps are more rare.
Usually the SA perps were in some delusional state of being wanted and desired when they did the SA, and their entire world collapses when they realize they not only weren’t wanted, but that they’re also a grimey disgusting rapist
I’m excited for the next episode. Glad to have you back!
You’re the best. I watch all of your videos regardless of relevance. Thanks always!
I appreciate that!
I was in a relationship with a woman with NPD for 15 years. I stayed 15 yrs too long. Under the spell and manipulations, i fought for her and protected her until our split. Never had anything but love and empathy shown to her. She from out of the gate, began a smear campaign against me that I was an abuser. She is malevolent and tried to kill me with her bare hands, has had other people in works to kill me, comitted arson against my property, tried to alienate our child from me. That is only a drop in the bucket. I will keep it short.
I stayed way too long, as not to abandon our child for the most part. When dealing with NPD/Borderline/ Antisocial Psychopath behavior, it is only a loser for all involved. Pathological liars will never come clean or be str8 with you. Parasitically machiavellian behaviors with control/ power, all that matters over everyone else. It is what they need. They indirectly destroy the good for them as well as they only see the power and control they so desperately need. You, your child or whomever will only suffer by trying to help. Leave it to the therapists. Helping and being successful at fixing her sabotage, only created contempt and rage with a desire to do me in. Be careful
Thank you for explaining in such informative depth what many including myself find confusing about someone we care about.
Glad it’s helpful. Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much.
This was so helpful and hopeful. Thank you Dr. Ettensohn!
😊
Thank you! Already waiting for the next video
Explained simply and well - thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you, I learned a lot about personality organization from this video.
Thanks for watching!
This was so helpful to me in understanding myself. Thank you!
Glad it helped. 😊
Amazing video with a highly detailed explanation! Loved it, thank you!
@annedebackker - Thanks 😊
Wonderful video as usual
Can't wait for the next one on borderline organization!
You just described my older brother to a T. What can a family member do if such an individual refuses to seek help? He’s convinced that everyone needs therapy except for himself.
P.S. Love the channel, love your demeanour and the work that you do. Much gratitude.
I feel overwhelmed and hopeless, I don’t see any resources to help me and I’m not sure if I fall into this category but hearing this kind of information is very distressing. Growing up with a schizophrenic mother has been unbearably difficult, nobody understands the kind of issues and struggles I’ve had to endure. It’s not possible for me to think that somehow my reality tested mind is somehow not accurate. Accuracy is really important to me. I have taken so much care to try to tolerate and get through the unimaginable stress I’ve had to deal with at home. Utter chaos and paranoia from my mom constantly. I also dislike people who are overly humorous and I really hate that so many people get to live their lives in a healthy carefree way while I have to continue to suffer.
It really pains me if I really am this way, bc I took so much care and already worked SO hard to develop the right ways to be different from my mom (I don’t think I’m overly paranoid but this video has given me anxiety about this). I’ve had to fight my mom every day on her irrational anxieties and paranoias and it isn’t my fault I picked up a few bc I was hearing her say things and at first it didn’t make sense but over time some of the things she said sort of made sense to me. It doesn’t make sense that this could be a bad thing if it helps one feel better and tolerate extreme amounts of stress. I am so burned out at this time. I really don’t know what else can be done. There aren’t really therapists to help with the personal issues I have been dealing with it alone.
@michelle1813 - It sounds like you've been through a lot. I would expect someone who was raised by a parent with schizophrenia to struggle with some anxieties and other issues related to those early experiences. Try to be patient and understanding with yourself, especially in light of all that you've been through.
@@healnpdthank you Mark, I really appreciate your response. I will try to do that.
People who have/employ a sense of humor aren’t “carefree” as you stated. Robin Williams comes to mind as an example. Be careful not to adapt a ‘victimhood’ mentality.
@@jimstenlund6017I’m not adopting a victim mentality if I have been a victim countless times in my life. I was saying that it’s unfair when I see people who are able to be humorous or have humor bc their situations aren’t severe enough that their humor is literally taken away. Hence if you viewed the video Mark talks about the level of adaptability that these people can secure. I am personally a victim of this. I used to have some sense of humor but these days can’t even laugh bc of just how badly my life has been. Saying that one is Adopting a “victimhood” mentality can be victim shaming for people who really are suffering.
@@michelle1813 I never said you had a victimhood mentality, read my comment again.
thx for your work
looking forward to the next video
Excellent video ! I admire the depth processing of the psychological concepts used in your work!😊 wow!
You're a great educator! Thank you so much.
You're very welcome!
I love this channel! I start almost every morning with one of your videos to set the tone for my day! Can’t wait for the Borderline organization video to drop! Maybe one day I’ll have the courage to ask someone to move their car rather than find a parking spot further away to avoid the confrontation lol 😅
This is fascinating, subscribed
I have an uncle (my mom's bother) who is very kind, but got the brunt of a lot of extreme psychological and physical abuse by my grandparents that the 3 siblings endured. He has lived an almost captive life. (The only place he's ever been aside from their home was Vietnam as a comms tech- during draft times he volunteered as an AF techie to avoid the draft into infantry as there isn't a confrontational bone in his body, and his 9-5 job for yrs. No friends, never a romantic partner, nor even a date.) He's shockingly smart & a curious learner. But because of this severe sheltering, he seems sort of trapped in a mental prison of their insanely dysfunctional "reality". So when you speak of impaired development and the psychotic blur of reality- I can see that in him where he has a very fragile sense of self and is afraid to attempt anything really. His brother is flat out psychotic and out of touch with reality, but clearly took on the NPD mantle their mother had, and is quite malicious, ego-driven, and dark in his alternate take on reality- in fact, continuing the psychological and financial control & abuse towards his brother. They share a home. What I'm wondering, is if there is anything to be said about treating induced psychotic traits as a result of captivity & exposure/indoctrination into someone else's alternate reality of beliefs- especially after so long? Like maybe a Stockholm Syndrome or cult type thing almost. He is 76 now & sadly may never experience life outside that house. Even if my older uncle dies first- I hope I can lead him to help but it seems grim. The part where you mentioned hearing those abusers in their heads really hit home, as I know that's his self-talk 24/7, even without his brother's abuse.
That is so sad :-(
Are you asking on reddit forums? I would start there.
@rachelbartlett1970 no, I'm not on Reddit, and I'd much rather consult a professional at some point, but I appreciate you. Thank you.
wonderful video ❤ im very interested in learning about these developmental levels, so im looking forward to your video about the borderline one as well. i would appreciate it if you added more detailled "grandiose" examples, as im currently working towards deconstructing and learning about mine. thank you for making informative videos for us with npd in midst of all this chaos!
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS POST MORE PLEASEEEEEEEE❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
MORE VIDEOS PLEASEEEEE😊
So enjoyed this video, Dr. Ettonsohn. Is it possible for someone to be mostly in the neurotic or possibly borderline range while still struggling with some psychotic features daily? Like body dismorphia or illness anxiety?
Also, are obsessive thinking or features just a step below the healthy range? I noticed that on the chart you included, but not entirely sure how it works :) would love to learn more. Amazing content!!
Illness anxiety and body dysmorphia are not necessarily psychotic. It varies from person to person. The psychotic quality of an issue has to do with the extent of reality distortion involved. I have worked with people who have both of those issues and would not describe as psychotically organized.
@@healnpd thank you for the reply. Looking forward to the rest of the videos in this series ☺️
Do you believe NPD is a secondary defense (higher functioning) against BPD?
I don’t think the relationship between bpd and npd is linear in that way. I think there is some overlap, and the vulnerable experience in npd can be very similar to bpd.
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I didn't quite understand the concretization thing, you kinda only gave a fictional example that I wouldn't know how to apply to reality, but apart from that it's a great video!
Do you think that extreme Contagion OCD leading to taking over the lives of loved ones could be an attempt to enact omnipotent control? [I have in mind someone with many markers of NPD]
@jasonramsey3993 - Not sure about that, but I do think that symptoms of mental illness are often overdetermined (meaning that they are driven by multiple issues simultaneously) and also accomplish multiple functions.
@@jasonramsey3993 literally YES
If someone has all or most of the psychotic symptoms but they are somewhat willing to recognize that they have NPD and go to therapy what are the chances that they will improve and how long do you think it would take for them to no longer qualify as NPD? I realize this is circumstantial based but I'm wondering if there is a broad time frame if the person is willing to put in the work. I would say it's not super severe but moderately in most of these areas. She just recently (about a month ago) became willing to admit it and go to therapy.
I appreciate the insight so I have a better understanding of what to expect and if I want to keep allowing my boundaries to be broken if there is little to no hope of change.
Realistically a few decades
Be careful and be on your toes.
I do tend to have some of these, mostly in response to fear and stressors that i have from early childhood. I can defintely see a realistic perception later as i am detached from the situation, but, unfortunately, when put under duress, due probably to early trauma, my perception of reality is somewhat distorted. Can you please refer me a resource, or plan, course to read up on and understand how to develop better ego functions?
me when i got fired and went on a downward spiral
I think the different levels of organization can be understood from a neuroscience perspective as differences in cognitive development and functioning, which are significantly genetically-biologically determined.
It would be wrong to assume that a higher level of functioning is due to more effort invested. Its the other way around: higher functioning probands have to make less effort to achieve the same or better results than lower functioning ones.
For example: being sociable and empathetic and agreeable is natural to them, while it‘s challenging for those with a more neurotic / psychotic / antagonistic / avoidant inclination
This model is not based solely on cognitive development. It is looking at cognitive and emotional integration, distress tolerance, and self image. These factors are rooted in both genetics and environment.
I WANT NMORE MORE MORE MORE VIDSSSSS
Could it also be possible that the mind was at a point mature and developed, but rather bc of too much emotional stress later on, that causes it to dysregulate? Ie stress burnout, going thru trauma 100 times daily, etc
Can you do vids on bpd too
Is this generally from O.Kernberg? Isn't 'Neurotic' a bit of a misnomer, why was it called 'Neurotic'. I thought being/acting Neurotic is generally bad? Or what am I missing?
Thanks again for the videos! It is awesome that you explain all this stuff in an accessible and simple way.
It’s from multiple psychoanalytic traditions - mostly ego psychology and object relations. The term ‘neurotic’ was used to identify the kinds of issues that Freudian analysis was focusing on. These are mostly depressive- and anxiety-based problems having to do with the mind’s attempts to conceal its own motivations from itself.
If anyone wants some music, listen to Reflections. I swear this music has most of the lyrics, and THE SOUND of it is so dissconant and abrasive, it's the only way to translate those dreadful feelings out if the mind.
8:22 I wonder what led to "Psychotic" being used for both left and right there.
@youtubeuniversity3638 - The term psychotic simply means loss of contact with reality. Psychotic disorders are formalized syndromes that include some psychotic component, whereas "psychotic organization" is a personality configuration in which the individual tends to distort reality in response to emotional distress or perceived threat. Numerous discrete mental disorders could be layered on top of the underlying psychotic organization, which might give them a psychotic flavor or quality.
@@healnpd Noted, thank you.
So, if I'm understanding right, personality disorders are basically adaptations made by the mind to deal with [Insert Bad Things]?
@youtubeuniversity3638 - They are defensive adaptations, yes. Reality doesn't do whatever we want automatically; others can't read our minds and understand our thoughts, feelings, and intentions completely; people leave, die, or reject us; distressing experiences happen and leave us with pain, sadness, fear, or anger; etc. All of these represent problems to which our minds must adapt in order to function effectively in the world. Personality is the collective term for those adaptations.
@@healnpd Thank you kindly.
I am somewhat suspicious with the idea of a "healthy" person as it can get somewhat normative. With that i stay with Lacans criticism of what was thought in his time as an "healthy" developtment by post-freudian. With that in mind, i see with this idea from psychotic, going through boderline, de defenses organize diffrently with different levels of stress and defensive reactions, from an more desperate and furious reaction, to and more coordinated one. I can somewhat see it in myself and my work on my boderline/npd traits, as i somewhat am able to deal with paranoid episodes (non-psychotic) today, when i stop and ponder, acknowlaging my scared and terrorized little child iner-self and can access the situation and what angered me far better than a few years ago, and take a more structured action against agressors, disrespectfull, exploitative persons, or situation where i didnt got what i expected. It was hard. Some boderline/npd people can get in an corrective and normative posture when they try to get better, specially when the individuation from the Other was extremly corrupted and sabotaged. It was hard to go beyond this corrective impulse and even begin to form an boundaries percetpion and the notion that i have the right to enforce the boundaries, especially with the prime caretakers that are the prime abusers from the first place. Sorry for this excessive digression.
@mltiago - Agreed. Some versions of the model presented in this video stop at neurotic organization. I decided to use the healthy level because I want to emphasize that narcissistic personality styles are not intrinsically “bad.”
@@healnpd thanks for the essay, hope that my observations didnt came as to harsh
@mltiago - Not at all. :)
Extremely long rant no need to read, but please be honest with me if you do! Be truthful I need to hear it
Hi, I feel like I relate alot to these and it really scares me. Is there any way we could have a chat? I have a tendency to not be able to able to asses the levels to which I have them. They can be extreme but i am also aware of the fact that my mind can play tricks and try to understand the situation. Like the examples you mentioned aren't something I relate to very often, but it can happen, especially when its an experience I haven't had before. I try to contain it because I believe it is my mind playing tricks, but I still can lose myself sometimes. In fact it is happening right now as I've recently entered my first romantic relationship. It vas gotten easier over the past weeks and I am able to regulate and understand the other person and their pov better, but I still understand the burden I may have placed on her when my anxiety goes overboard, which it has gone. And especially after I read up on npd and have been struggling immensely with the prospect of having it. And also projecting it onto other people which has lead me to almost villainising or at least be doubtful of people I don't want to be doubtful of. And even worse with myself. It is causing extreme stress and its really making my days difficult. It makes want to go back to whats familiar and safe and where I know myself and the people around me. I keep most of it i side as I feel these feelings are absurd and that my paranoia is just that. I can be extremely grandiose and feel very smart or handsome or it can completely flip and make me feel hideous or stupid. Im very aware of it just being a fluctuation, and unlike what people typically say about narcissists, I don't think I'm trying to feed myself or my ego. Sometimes with new people I do mask too hard and I feel like its an automatic response, but its less with people I know and trust. But it is big, and I've been talking to some friends about it and asking what its like to be on the lther side of me, and nobody has bad things to say about me, but I know its more complex and something happening internally. For example im scared to speak my mind because I subconsciously believe people dislike me and see all my faults and therfore im kind of wakting for the day they unload it all onto me and say everything i hate about myself, that especially happens when I don't people please. Im trying to protect myself but I feel fake and dislike it. Its like no matter how well someone knows me they don't know those negative parts about myself that I can't incorporate into the image of who I wish I was. I struggle to believe in the love people have for me or the value I bring and honestly for the longest time I saw myself as more of a social servant just trying to keep my head low and give people what they want, while internally congratulating myself for my social iq or my servitude. I dont think anyone would call me arrogant or entitled as I don't really display any of those out of fear. I don't think I am very entitled to be fair, but maybe there is some entitlement there I haven't adressed. Constructive criticism is fine for me and I am ok with getting tips on how I can do A or B better. But when it comes to who I am I can try to overcorrect my mistakes and beat myself viciously for them. I feel egotistical and arrogant and feel like those are negative traits so I try not to be, but I go too far in the other direction. Im sorry for this long rant, but I really need help and I'm not quite sure how to go about it. And self regualating is fine but it's nlt working in soothing my own inner image of how bad I am, and it doesn't lessen the anxiety I feel. Especially in unfamiliar territory's.
Hi im back, my opinion swayed the other way again so maybe I can provide more context. Like for example when I said I saw myself as a social servant, it's more like I don't believe I'm capablw lf truly living amongst normal people and that I see myself more as something to be picked up and played with and have fun with, not someone to take seriously as a friend or partner, I'm trying to change that by opening up and bekng honest and not people pleasing too hard, but it is hard to beat the negative thoughts telling me I'm awful and don't deserve it lr is too afraid to try because I'll be rejected. It feels very much like a tug of war inside me. I have that narcissist inside me wether it is a narcissistic mood or whatnot, it feels like I'm two people, the other on the other hand cares extremely deeply for people. Having kinda regulated from the space I was in I feel like I can see it more clearly, maybe I'm delusional now tho idk. I feel extremely deeply about not hurting others and have through my whole life struggled with guilt. I don't want to hurt others. A friend asked me if I wanted to hang out just now and I said yes and apologized that I'm bad at inviting out, because I don't want him to feel like he has to put the work in, and am telling him I'm working on it. He said I'm good at inviting out and do it plenty, but I honestly cannot remember since my memory is pretty much clogged all the time, and now I'm like "damn, I made a mess again". I've also seen some things about how narcissists choose partners based on more materialistic or "feeding" grounds, which isn't something im very concerned with. I can feel myself get heavy again, I had a thought that sent me spiraling again, I'm hoping that writing as it is happening can prevent me from entering the space. Snap I actually have a lot lf thoughts running, I can feel my mind shutting the other stuff i was thinking down and disregulating. Anyways sorry, thought ut was interesting that it was happening right now. Im getting dizzy from it. Ok its cool just gotta remember what i was thinking. Ok i dont remember all, but basically two people and I don't really know which is the real me, the person that tends to come out is the kind one, and is basically how people view me (not saying I don't have character flaws that are very apparent, but it's not really relevant) in many ways it also how I see me, but there is anlther part of me that I keep locked in that im ashamed of. I can struggle with emotional empathy, often not being able to access feelings of joy or sadness for others. That doesn't mean I want bad for them, I want good for them and will naturally accommodate because I want them to feel good, but it isn't always available to me, it depends. When my girlfriend cried I had to stop myself frlm crying myself, but then when anlther close mate of mine got a girlfriend I didn't really feel anything, i thought good for him he deserves it and has so much to give and I hope it goes well, I just didn't personally feel the joy. But then when a other friend got in his first relationship I felt really happy for him as it something I has meant alot to him. He also deserves it and I believe he is so good bf material. I feel it deeper with even though I have the same stance for both and is closer with the first friend I mentioned, idk why I guess I just figured it was more likely to happen with the first idk. Other times when others say sad things I accommodate because my natural drive tells me to do so, even though I don't really feel sad myself. I don't know if im projecting onto myself because I dont have all the facts or really understand the meaning of them (i swung back again) or maybe now that ive kinda gone down again my mind is more rational and open thinking. Honestly maybe thats the problem. Maybe im a narcissist that had to retreat back to my safe space and believe this about myself. Or maybe I get tunnel vision and viciously beat myself. I have really bad memory, and my mind will hyper focus on the things that I really fear. I do that often and live in extreme stress because of it, which I think is indicative of a narcissist. I'm svinging back and forth now, I think it's because as I write memories for and against are clashing like crazy. And I can feel my body growing heavy and light based on it. My head dizzying and then clearing, it is not this bad usually, these swings happen a few times a day, not an hour lr a minute. I have honestly no idea, so much is floating around and I can't grapple it truly. I feel immense guilt to all the people in my life for it. They deserve better and I am wondering maybe what is best for me amd the people in my life ks I take a step back, I don't want to hurt the people close to my heart. And I keep trying to understand. Not knowing is really the hardest part of it. I hate that I don't know if im seeing my own toxic truth and breaking out of my safe space, or doing the opposite and putting myself in a danger space to make sure im not there. I have a tendency to believe the worst case until proven otherwise, and usually I am proven wrong, but still, even if i am or not it is unfair to people that I should wallow in the state I am in right now. This second guessing my relationships and intentions is not fair to them. Too many people have shown me too much grace and kindness when I struggle to do basic things or when I say im sorry a million times, or act stupid. I feel like I act too much like woe is me, even if I don't mean to, it's unfair and I hate how im not able to be there for everyone the way they are for me. They're good people why am I dragging them down, they'll dl better without me but I dont want to lose them either. I'm deeply selfish, and I have very little character.
@tarjeisellevoll257 - No need to be scared. Nothing about you has changed because you watched the video. You just learned a few new concepts. Whatever was true about you before you kew these concepts remains true after learning them. Regarding your questions, it is sometimes difficult to assess personality organization even after multiple sessions. Try not to think of these as discrete categories with clear lines distinguishing them. They are more like clouds that sort of overlap at the edges. Also, all of us have a psychotic core at the center of our personality, because it represents the earliest way of experiencing. Therefore, all of us can temporarily regress to psychotic experience under enough stress. When assessing these issues, we tend to look at where a person spends most or all of their time. Psychotic people can pop up into the borderline level when things are going well, and borderline people can dip down into the psychotic level under stress, etc. The presence of psychotic issues in a person isn't really sufficient to determine personality organization. Instead, we look at what's absent. A psychotically organized person will lack many of the capacities that a neurotic person has, combined with a clear tendency toward reality-distorting defenses. Hope this helps. Just remember that growing and healing toward better functioning is always possible.
@@healnpd thank you. First off I'm very sorry about how messy and long it is and I really appreciate that you took time to read it, I know some things may have been over explained, I just wanted to make sure you had as much context as possible. I get what you mean, I really also hope I'm just going through a stressfull period right now. I'm committed to growing and changing so I can't thank you enough for giving me the reassurance that it's possible. I hope I'm just swimming around somewhere, and I've been far more stressed than usual and manage any ill symptoms to a point where it would probably be inconceivable to anyone but me that there's some negative aspects. But I don't think I'm seeing it fully clearly. I'm sure everyone to some degree has some tendencies, and I think maybe I should be kinder to myself instead of relentlessly attacking them. I've got a lot of work to do, and the ruminating I've been doing and the obsessing, isn't helping. Thank you, sorry for over explaining
When you're accused of being a psychotic, delusional conspiracy theorist. After years of no one believing you, it all gets proven true. Ain't that a kick in the butt?