What is the BEST TEAM in League of Legends esports HISTORY? - Summoning Insight S6E45
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- Christian "IWillDominate" Rivera joins the Summoning Insight season finale to discuss the greatest teams of all-time in the history of League of Legends. They discuss over a decades' worth of competitive League of Legends to identify and celebrate the best teams in LoL. Our hosts evaluate teams that peaked at an extraordinary level, such as Samsung White and Invictus Gaming, while also examining the teams that almost managed to walk the Golden Road, including JDG, SKT T1, RNG, and G2. Join us to evaluate each teams' unique aspects, strength of individual players, and fierceness of competition they faced to reveal the best of the best!
HELLO FRESH sponsored this episode! Head on over to www.hellofresh.com/LFNFree for FREE breakfast for life!
Announcing the NEW Last Free Nation culture channel with Thorin, Richard Lewis, and Monte's film club FOUR PLAY. Subscribe on CZcams here: / @lastfreenationculture
Summoning Insight is the longest-running, most viewed League of Legends esports podcast in the world. Each week, hosts Christopher "MonteCristo" Mykles and Duncan "Thorin" Shields break down the most exciting matches from LEC, LCS, LCK, and LPL as well as interviewing professional players, coaches, casters, and journalists from around the world.
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This episode was filmed on December 23rd, 2023.
Come join the Last Free Nation Discord for in-depth discussion across esports: / discord
0:00:00 - Intro
0:03:00 - Ground rules
0:09:15 - Samsung White 2014
0:25:53 - IG 2018-2019
0:36:20 - DRX 2022 (not)
0:40:06 - JDG 2023
0:51:33 - T1 2022-2023
1:06:12 - SKT 2015
1:13:54 - RNG 2018
1:17:30 - Moscow Five 2012
1:32:29 - G2 2019
1:44:10 - Damwon 2021
1:53:45 - EDG 2021 + honorable mentions
1:58:04 - Everyone's picks + closing thoughts
2:11:22 - Discord Subscriber questions
#lolesports
#lolpodcast
#leagueoflegends - Hry
It’s so great to see the enthusiasm from all 3 of them when talking about M5! M5 was by far the biggest brain back then, from what I remember they are so far ahead in the game, they can troll and still wins games.
They were truly ahead of their time as far as understanding the finer mechanics of the game. Took some teams years to catch up even after they disbanded
M5 also known as "I didnt know that you could do that in game!"
I really like the SKT team from 2013-14: They won Champions Summer 2013, went on to win the world championship, then topped it off by having a perfect winter OGN season, not even dropping a game in Champions Winter 2014. On top of that, Faker's peak mechanical level compared to his contemporaries during that run is arguably the highest peak, such that assassins were nerfed, DFG was removed, etc.
They literally were non-existant for majority of 2013. So that really invalidates that, also in 2014, they got their ass handed to them by majority of LCK :D I would actually say 2013-2014 are one of the worst T1s years lol
I blame all of that on t1 management we all saw what they were doing if they played with a consistent roster i have 0 doubt them not being good seeing how they won World one after another@@radekhruby142
@@radekhruby142 non existent when they won Summer 2013 and Worlds? Delusional.
@@hrknesslovesu can you read?
@@radekhruby142 can you math? Half of the year = missing most of it? Actual smoothbrain. Not only that, but they perfect season'd 2013 OGN Winter. So they won 2/3 Korean splits, Worlds and All-Stars... most of the year?
2016 SKT almost also completed the Golden Road just lost domestically 3 2 to KT Rolster.
yeah 2016 SKT deserves way more credit, won spring + IEM + MSI + worlds, they were very dominant.
I also think 2015-2016 should count together really. Core of the team stayed together and so dominant.
I really hate the fact that everytime there's a stupid t1 fan twitter, they just shit on it like it's the entire t1 fanbases opinion.
Their entire persona is based on this for the past 10 years
The fact that there are actually people in this chat unironically implying DRX should have been on a list of Best LOL Teams of all time 😂
Best worlds performance maybe yes. But best team. I highly doubt it. None of the drx members even had a great perfomance the following year.
Maybe best team compared to expectations coming into the tournament, but even that's debatable I'm sure.
@roachdoggjr4648 Agreed. Could also give that to G2 with Hjarnan and Wadid possibly? Them knocking out RNG was legitimately mind-blowing coming into that tournament
@@therainguy0312 Not even close to the best worlds performance, they barely scraped by at every single stage of the tournament and in literally all 3 of their playoff matches there were players on the opposing teams having really big underperformances.
@@sashin2661 You can make an argument for hardest run, considering their opponents.
But I agree with you, they didnt show gameplay related greatness in those games.
It feels a little sus to criticize T1 for being favorites in 2022 but not mention that JDG were HEAVY favorites to win 2023 up til they lost.
it’s mentioned that jdg were one of the largest favorites in worlds history
2022 t1 also were not the favorite for worlds before the tournament began, geng was
monte saying the lpl having communication issues at worlds 2015 why skt was so dominant meanwhile edg won msi literally few months before that
I'm sure you know better than Monte about what was going on in 2015 Worlds
@@cremlindor6607 montes burner 💀
Also meanwhile, 2014 Starhorn Royal Club casually getting to World finals twice in a row this time with two Korean players.
@@DarkCyberElf they were full Chinese in 2013 but yes good argument for 2014
@@cremlindor6607 Monte in that same worlds said Faker was not the main shot caller and Marin was. Tom then refuted that. I am sure you know more than Tom aka the current head coach of T1 who recently won worlds. Response mayo?
Looking back at this episode the preparation is pretty shit. Such a low quality video
Their criterias are all over the place
One team is good because of a tournament but some teams cant be considered because of their performance in multiple
Even they dont seem to know where theyre going
All the classics in this episode. Emotional letdown of KT, hating T1 fans, Hating TSM, Froggen mentioned, M5 shenanigans, shitting on riot's formats, mentioning Korean exodus, and shitting on fan opinions. I can't wait to revisit this in time.
those are the only things they could bring up to the table
cant be bothered to prepare something new
@@eyesonscs7972What new thing would you bring to the table when talking about teams that disbanded 10 years ago?
@@ParallelZuVega none, then why even talk about the same thing over and over on the facade of talking sometging new? even the title is rhetorical WAY BACK IN 2016!
This was really cool to listen to the thought process between this. Super hard thing to do to evaluate all of these teams by accomplishments, eye test, and the context at the time. Awesome job
Amazing episode ty guys for all this amazing content, you three together always makes a great episode!
This trio on historical stuff is my favorite, another great video boys
This was an amazing episode, thank you for this! 🙂
Did we forget when monte and dom said if rhis jdg teamdoesen't win or atleast makes finals , is massive faillure and it will be the biggest choke , this team was by far the most favourite team to win worlds , but they couldn't reach finals , crazy the bias here , but T1 are chockers , when they went to 3 internationnal finals and won one , atleat they made finals , what is Jdg excuse ??
Kind of hard to make more finals when they played one year.
@@F4LCoN13 well T1 did in their first year they made every final
Jdg didn’t reach the final because they met the eventual champion. Imagine if Worlds had an actual good format, like idk, double elim like *the rest of the season in all regions*, we might have seen JDG T1 final rematch.
@@F4LCoN1315skt 17skt 21dk 22t1 all made 4 finals
@@pinkocean310by that logic , we should make a double elimination finals , imagine if T1 vs drx was rematch , do you really think drx would have won that ? We will never know am I right ?
Think that whole discussion on 2019 missed the mark. G2 obviously deserves their flowers-maybe the most creative team ever. However, they act like FPX was good for one tournament. They were 1st seed in regular season for spring and lost to Zoom having the series of his life. They then won summer convincingly again as the 1st seed in the regular season (only losing one series). They then won worlds after having a horrendous group stage by dictating the meta, similar to these T1 teams that have recently gotten praise at the past two worlds. Pair this with G2 completely avoiding the lpl the entire year until worlds finals after the lpl had an insanely dominant 2018, and I think there’s some concern about them actually being the dominant team of that year with different draws.
I don’t necessarily think FPX was some insane team that should be ranked amongst the best ever, but I do find it hypocritical that team was consistently ridiculed throughout the video while the g2 of that year was praised as one of the best ever.
theyre just rewriting history because of their relationships withe the former g2 members
G2 is giga overrated. Their success came off from Korea falling out of relevance due to the changes made to vision and runes reforged. Now EU is back to their home (actually worse since they are worse than NA).
@@Gurpreet-sv5zgg2 also benefited immensely from the remnants of the s8 worlds patch turbo buffing solo lanes and especially sidelane macro, which was paramount to their style
the thing is, you can’t discredit g2’s success with the argument “other teams were worse than them” because that is a point in favor of g2. g2’s ability to adapt to the post s8 macrogame is part of what made them an impressive team.
FWIW neither g2 or fpx are close to the goat team which is 2014 ssw
@@DEVILONBOTHSHOULDERS The difference is S8 directly nerfed how Korea played the game on a fundamental level. As well, Korea never felt the impact of the imports since macro was more important than the micro aspect. Since the game favor hand diff over brain diff then Korea went a huge change over selecting rookies that have the hands.
Worked out quite well for them. Problem with the argument about G2 is they just got worse and worse. Question is do you think it's likely G2 was a "good roster" or just so happens that Korea started playing like a human major region? I am going with the latter.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg the way koreans played league from s4-s7 was already changing by s7 summer (see longzhu gaming)
the ardent buff before worlds made teams revert to the min activity max precision style but khan and bdd’s longzhu had completely dismantled teams playing that style before the ardent buff
*I maintain that topping a GOAT list requires a GOATworthy peak. If you think of teams like you would a fantasy swordsman, and a monster that only the greatest swordsplay ever can beat is coming to kill you, you're going to be really fucking pissed when 3 idiots turn up with a team that averaged 91% of the greatest swordsplay ever over their entire 'life' and never exceeded 94%.*
So, the solution for being the best team ever according to summoning insight is 'get an extremely favourable meta shift, 3-2 a slumping T1 and then get fucked by the same team in worlds semis'.
What kind of argument is 'the stars aligned' even? Korea consistently lost tournaments in Korea for years before this worlds, T1 broke open the worlds meta, it's not like it was gifted to them like MSI was to JDG. "Versus the team that was peaking" like JDG wasn't peaking at MSI. Peaking at the right time, by the way, is a key part of being a great team. Peaking at the right time and beating JDG by being convincingly better than them at all the points they're lauded for in this video is not something that makes JDG look better. And like, talking about the pressure of being a 'super team'? What about the pressure of being fucking T1, there is none greater. Like shit, Dom is backing LPL and JDG so hard purely because of how much he hates T1 super fans, and they're every as bit as cancer to their 'fandom'.
What do T1 need to do, lol? Convincingly stomping the entire LPL worlds qualifiers and winning worlds, and going 5 games with the eventual MSI winners in winners bracket finals in a meta that suited them more than any other team, while slumping, in 2023, AND being the clear best team of 2022 isn't enough to be considered better than JDG who people wouldn't even be talking about if they didn't win MSI? The over all most brilliant run for any roster ever, but not enough I guess. Even if they're obviously bigger benificiaries of the same logic that is applied to JDG to argue that they're GOATed.
:Interlude to shout out to Thorin going on a stupid fucking spiel while Monte tries to establish some ground rules for the list, to ensure JDG can be best team ever in the list despite them doing nothing more impressive than several other teams in this list: Huge effort buddy ✊💦
I also think DWG 2020 are majorly slept on in this list. Does anyone actually think 2021 DWG wouldn't have done better if they remained as they were in 2020? What ever it is that makes a legendary team, that team had it and then some, and definitely had the potential to perform as well as JDG or better, over a longer time frame. As much as people love TheShy, Nuguri on Ornn 2020 was the best a top laner has ever performed, by far. It's just unbelievable how good he was on that champ, his Es were like heat seeking team wide CC spells. That from the pioneer of Klepto top lane ignore CS and just auto the enemy.
So yeah, that's the gist. T1 in worlds actually looked unbeatable, not lucky and carried by circumstance. Hence, JDG can't be the GOAT team.
Yeah it's crazy to me that they think so highly of Samsung White, a team that peaked insanely high for a single tournament (Worlds 2014), when the T1 of this year arguably peaked just as high if not higher for Worlds, and played against much better competition by comparison (could be argued perhaps at least equal competition). The eye test for T1 in 2022 - 2023 versus Samsung White post Dade-PawN swap is also in their favor considering I don't think any team in LoL history has had the raw mechanical talent, pound-for-pound, of all 5 players of this T1 roster. T1's macro was also absolutely cracked during their periods of dominance in the two Spring splits before each slump, so you can't say they're purely a hands team either.
JDG is definitely the GOAT team to be assembled and be instantly dominant (and consistent), and did indeed win one of (if not) the best international tournaments ever held in League history, but the team is just further proof how badly the LPL has been reliant on top Korean talent to stay competitive with Korea itself. After this T1 roster placing 1st and 2nd in two back-to-back World finals though, you can't even boast that the LPL is the best at talent management either, which was the only working argument for their success in years previous.
Awesome video guys, only you could do it! Really enjoy when Dom is present too
Everyone has his/her own perspective on who is the greatest team in the world, so I am not going to delve into that.
But there are problems on some of the Monte's take with respect to JDG's performance at Worlds.
1) Meta shifted during the Worlds in favor of T1
First of all, the game patch did not change in the middle of the Worlds. The same patch continued on from the start to the end of the Worlds. So the game patch was fairly applied to everyone at Worlds. So the more accurate description would be: T1 shifted the meta in their favor while JDG either failed to adjust to it or came up with their own strategy to lead/change the meta in their favor.
And JDG simply couldn't become as good as T1 at this Worlds meta only shows that JDG wasn't as adaptable (as it is one of the indicators of being good at the game) or good as you guys make it out to be.
Note: Worlds meta was changing every week as Keria said. If you look at T1's pick/bans during quarters, semi, and finals, their picks and team comps vary each week. So the meta was not 'shifting' but rather 'oscillating' continuously - T1 simply managed to adapt well to that constantly vibrating meta because their strength lies in having flexible picks
2) Monte is strongly suggesting that 'If this Worlds was double-elimination like MSI, JDG would have (or at least very likely to have) won Worlds.
First of all, everything is probability - so I am not going to neglect the possibility that JDG wins the whole thing. But looking at how JDG was getting stomped in game 1, losing the only chance that were given to them in game 3, and losing game 4 convincingly even playing as a blue side only showed me that T1 was a better team than JDG at Worlds.
Game 3 was more of a throw from T1 than JDG playing well. T1 was leading the whole time until their typical LCK throws happened after their baron. But despite throws, T1 managed to come back because they were mechanically better at teamfights. So I think T1 would go 3-1 again vs JDG in their second match-up (even after considering that this time JDG would be picking blue for game 1 after winning coin toss). If the Worlds were double elimination, I would still vote in favor of T1 winning the whole thing 70-30.
+) I would still rate JDG as the best team of 2023, as they were the most consistent team this year. But just of that, we should not be biased toward them when evaluating teams at Worlds. T1 simply was much better team than JDG during Worlds.
+) On a side note, T1 also played really well against JDG during the MSI. But during the MSI, T1 could not adapt well to MSI meta of Kindred-Nautilus and Jayce-Maokai, and (after going 2-1 against JDG) lost 2 games in a row because they lost in pick/ban phase. This is exactly why T1 just gave up on 'following other's pick/ban meta' but instead go with their own strengths - pick strong bot lane champs and play how they used to play well during their perfect runs in 2022 spring in LCK, which shifted the meta at Worlds. This time, JDG couldn't catch up to T1 and lost 3-1, which is much more convincing loss than T1's 2-3 against them at MSI.
Also, on Dom's point of Worlds being over-evaluated. Sure, I agree. Players should not be judged just based on their performance at Worlds. But the Worlds is the most important tournament of the year. It only take about 15% of the entire year-season duration (3 months spring, 3 months summer, 1 month Worlds) but if you take into account the fame, size, and competitiveness, one should 'weight-average'out Worlds to be near 40%. (My thoughts: 40% Worlds, 25% MSI, 18% Summer, 17% Spring)
Being good at the game when it matters the most (in the most important tournament of the year) is what differentiates a regular player to star players and sets the player value. You can see the same thing in football/soccer. Winning a league is important. But many view winning Euros or Champs to be much more important than winning a league. And finally, winning World Cup is the most important thing in soccer because the most number of people watch the game, and the fame and prestige that comes from winning World Cup greatly exceeds that of winning other tournaments. Carrying team in Champs or World Cup is very different than carrying in league games.
So should we look at the team's entire season to evaluate their skills? Absolutely.
But the Worlds should be heavily weighted in the calculation compared to MSI and other regional titles.
So in that perspective, Worlds being overhyped or overvalued is normal (even from a skill evaluation point of view).
If you are considering commerical and popularity standpoint, then Worlds simply outclasses all other tournaments combined
They are just trying to undermine the importance of worlds and how good T1 and Faker perform this year.
They are Second in Spring and Summer, Third in Msi and Champion in Worlds.
Talking about the meta shift is also nonsense, why other teams cannot see how the meta shift before the Worlds starts like T1 does?
Why don't they evaluate JDG with the same standard that the meta doesn't change a lot during the end of Spring to the whole Summer?
JDG is the most consistent team in this year and they might be the best team in this year, but it doesn't mean that T1 is a bad team and don't deserve the praise that people give to them.
I lost it when they acted like game 4 was remotely close , dom a korean hater , thorin doesn’t know fuck about league and monte has no balls just agrees with everyone
Ok if you have JDG as the best team of 2023 who do you have as the best team of all time then?
@@Leemanyiunothing you've said is true. They haven't undermined their worlds win. T1 didn't anticipate a meta shift, they literally changed the way they play botlane because the meta didn't suit them and it ended up being the more dominant playstyle overall. They never said this T1 team is a bad team
Also the meta did not even shift that much between summer and Worlds. G2 for example were already experimenting quite heavily with carry top laners, and more dominant botlanes like Kallista and Draven combinations from LEC Spring onwards. That particular read worked for them at Worlds as well - they just were not able to diversify on their picks fast enough.
The viability of what T1 were doing, should have been clear to JDG for months.
You guys have kept us waiting too long for another video like this. Great content as always.
Lmfao, this d riding is crazy
Best early Christmas gift ever along with the reflections that’s been coming out lately. Fucking banger
2023 jdg benefit from the non carry top meta the whole year why they got exposed in the end 😂
Sure not the fact that 369 can neutralize every lane and the 2635th time JDG went against BLG Bin who’s arguably the best carry top all year.
And Knights champion puddle
@@pinkocean310bins entire champion pool is countered by Gragas lol. Maybe Bin should show a ranged carry or a Yone but he can’t play them. 369 can’t just blind Gragas into Zeus because he’ll get clowned by a Jayce etc
369 lead the LPL in solo kills last year just say you don’t watch LPL and keep fakers dick in your mouth
@@pinkocean310 369 is a great neutralizer if you will. But when the meta needs him to carry, he cant.
this is the moment we get sad, but later down this series we will be overcome with joy
Shoutouts to the longest johns!!
Glad to see monte enjoy their songs~~
The crossover with my favorite youtubers feels great
Thorin's point on social skills was great and i liked Monte's point on discipline and routine / learning, habit building when younger makes it even easier to maintain into adulthood so this advice is phenomenal for younger people
Wooo another great season!
Thorins response to the last question is really well put. Learning how to actually listen to people is a skill that is undervalued. Get out of your own head, stop thinking what you’re going to say next or guessing what they’re going to say next. Also, every single person thinks they matter to the random people, you don’t matter to them just like they don’t matter to you, get out of your own head and relieve your anxiety
Thorin really said that Bin Xiahou Gala Ming are forgotten player ( Wei maybe) ?
Lol thorin 0 credibility, guy has 0 game knowledge and talks as if knows the game inside out
the angle is most people don’t remember that bin and breathe swapped places between msi and summer
1:15:58 isn’t JDG losing to T1 who lost to DRX in 2022 also embarassing? 😏
You really are doing some mental gymnastics with that one.
@@marcrush55 The same mental gymnastics Monte was doing. 🤔
@@marcrush55 that’s the whole point
JDG spending 16 mil to win world's and not winning is the biggest failure, embarassing
Damwon 2021 is better team than 2020 but T1 2022 is dogshit 😂
Thank god I'm not an LPL or LCK meat eater 💀, these 3 arguing that JDG is the best team of all time when T1 literally stomped their competition and them in pretty much the only league tournament that matters is never not gonna be funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
thats the thing, it wasn't just JDG that got pissed on, but literally all of JDGs competition, including the same team they struggled against in LPL finals, got clowned on. but sure, best team of all time played in that same tournament and did not piss on any of their competition to a remotely similar level lol
@@Ps-we3ppMSI shouldn’t matter unless it’s played on 0 ping but IWillCopeinate won’t admit that
@@jackthomas3483 Dom is just malding, cuz T1 won worlds this year and the LPL didnt
@@Ps-we3ppsay you are child without saying 😂😂😂😂 lpl player are crying and just grinding thier ass to just win worlds one time
@@Ps-we3pp Double elimination is something EU does because they are hot garbage at esports.
the whole exedous was such a tragady, if that Samsung episode would have stayed togeather, good lord.
Thorin shouting out Boards Of Canada is something I never expected. Fuck yeah.
Im not even a T1 fan, but these JDG vs T1 takes are VERY disingenuous. 😂
A lot of the arguments they used against T1 you could also use against JDG, but were never brought up.
like what?
Such as...?
@@ThePolarpop 1:05:18 - 1:05:47
Actually insane also that they hyped up SSW so much (amazing team, btw) when SSW lost the entire year to SSB except for Worlds, but somehow when T1 2023 did it (even down to the meta-dictating aspect of SSW in Worlds 2014) it's just underwhelming.
They talk about how a team should be dominant for most of the year , so they pick JDG, but when SKT did it in 2015 (even with shifting metas, compared to JDG's dominance in 2023 where the meta was mostly unchanged for the entire year), Monte tries to discount it by saying the competition was weaker (even mentioning both the LPL and LCK was weaker that year) as if that's SKT's fault. He didn't even notice the inconsistency in that reasoning. If both the LPL and LCK was technically 'weaker', it also means SKT's level was 'brought down' to the level of their opponents, but they still managed to dominate their opponents anyway. The reasoning is just so full of cope. I mean, they said it themselves, a team's dominance should be judged vis-a-vis the strength of their opponents. You can't compare the strength of today's teams vs those of yesterday's because teams will only get stronger year by year, as it is the nature and design of the game itself. SKT 2015 has demonstrated their dominance over their opponents, but they're somehow not as great as SSW 2014 who spent most of their year losing to SSB. It just doesn't make sense. I'm not even the biggest 2015 SKT fan (I was more a KOO fan back then), but by any objective metrics they should take this.
They credit G2 so much for their creativity (rightfully so), but when T1 does it back in Spring 2023 it doesn't count.
It's really disingenuous the amount of effort they employ just to try to discredit any iteration of SKT/T1 team. My issue with these three is their gratuitous employment of double standards, but they act as if they have the moral ascendancy over a team's fans and think they're so objective when a lot of their takes are full of cringe-inducing copium.
@@jagonz70580 how can you miss the two main arguments for having SSW so high? It wasn't that they won worlds, it was they had the highest peak ever and changed the way the game is played with their vision innovations. T1 fans really just try to be victims as hard as they can, it's crazy.
@@jagonz70580really tough to hear people not agree that your team is the best of all time huh?
1:05:18 - 1:05:47, that argument can be used fro JDG as well, the second they were not playing their own playstyle they became weaker. at least try to be consistent
For real
JDG could play with other style, its just their teamfight is more renown
@@ftu2021 what other styles
The same blueprint with different champions
@@Lounes378 they could play splitpush, they don’t always rely on tf to win.
@@ftu2021 yeah splitpushing in 2023 happened !!
Check 369 champion pool before worlds and tell me what kind of splitpushing he did
I lost it when
JDG - BEST TEAM IN HISTORY (Chokes Worlds being literally the biggest favorites in a tournament ever)
T1 - NOT THE BEST TEAM due to choking too much
I dont think T1 is the best in history but what is this insane logic?
the irony is, there is video evidence of dom thorin and monte saying "if this JDG team does not win worlds it is a massive choke job and failure, this is the entire reason this lineup was made"
its sad how the intellectual honesty is completely lost because monte/thorin submit and essentially paste doms opinions and way of thinking as their own now
It’s not insane logic lmaooo they had great regular season and playoff performances and lost literally 1 bo5 the whole year.
A single choke in a tournament where there’s not even a losers bracket isn’t fucking comparable to how T1 struggled this year.
@@Dboy112311dude no one spends 16 billion for domestic and msi wins its to win worlds
Even with a lower bracket they wouldve lost to geng(uzi said jdg went0 6in scrims against geng)
,blg and wbg
@@eyesonscs7972 dude they spent that money to win EVERYTHING, and they were 2 sets away from it.
And we saw at this worlds, same as we see at like all of them, that scrim results are not a direct translation to stage, so I don’t put a lot of stock in all that.
Saying they’d just lose to BLG AND WBG also seems crazy to me. We have no idea what adjustments would look like in a lower bracket run.
@@Dboy112311 if your gonna say they were just '2 sets' away for winning it all
here is the list
13skt was 2 sets away(domestic)
15skt was 1 game away
16skt was 2 sets away(domestic)
17skt was 2 sets away
19g2 was 1 set away
21dwg was 2 games away
from winnning it all
so i wouldnt say jdg was particularly special
How is jdg losing to blg and wbg a crazy thing? when blg and wbg couldve also made adjustments and the meta suited them well
Thorin mentioning Fred Again was not what I was expecting from this episode
how they talk about 2018-2019 iG vs how they talk about 2022-2023 T1 and it’s evident it’s clown central.
The fact that they spent the whole T1 section speaking of reasons to “disqualify them” already shows they are a contender. Top 3 in every tournament for 2.5 years straight lol. Their precious JDG couldn’t handle a single meta shift.
Aren't they discussing best team of all time in any given year? I don't recall anyone disputing that skt is the best of all time.
I think their point still stands though. In those 2.5 years they have always choked when it mattered except for this worlds and a few LCK titles, if they do a lot this year i agree fully that they can be in consideration for the best team ever.
@@ewan5421Idk if always choked is what happen. People keep forgetting this but t1 over performing to make final to losing doesn’t mean they choke lol. For example both summer last year and this year in lck, geng was still the favorite to win. T1 just slug their way to final somehow. T1 also has the biggest fanbase so it make it looks like they are expected to win or favorite every time when in reality they aren’t. They did choke vs geng in spring and drx in 22 tho.
@@ewan5421losing to tl is a bigger choke than anything else idc
The problem with mentioning IG is that IG are also chokers in the same vein that they criticize T1 for. Iunno how you can put 2018-2019 IG as a bigger contender than the recent T1 when in their worlds winning year they lost to RNG twice while also being the split favorite(sound familiar?). They also never had to play RNG at that worlds either. MSI happens with them losing to TL in a Bo5(worse than T1 losing to DRX) and then proceeded to have a worse summer split than anything 2022-2023 T1 did. They may have beaten Griffin, but they were never first in their group stage in either of their worlds appearances. While I agree that IG would have beaten G2 given the G2 roster not being very strong vs LPL, it still puts them less qualified than T1.
DWG is pretty underrated imo, 2 games from golden road and extremely dominant worlds win.
U mean Damwon Kia right? It’s important to differentiate as DWG was the 2020 world champion roster while DK was the super dominant team you are referring to who spanned 2021
@@stellachimpson yea what team did u think I meant? The only difference in roster was nuguri, what are u on about.
If you mean Damwon 2020, they were mediocre in Spring so no, they didn't have a Golden road opportunity. 2021 DK also failed at both MSI and Worlds, just like T1 the very next year.
Bro do you really not get that I mean 2020 summer to 2021 DK? Khan is the difference in roster, really dominant worlds run, and 2 games from grand slam in 2021.
I think they're underrated, sue me. T1 didn't win LCK summer 2022 either. So I'd rate them DK higher.
Y'all are tripping
@@LGinux why are you so vexed lmao
Why does it not surprise me that the real, most objective, best team/roster of all time isn't even discussed beyond minor considerations? SKT 2015, like JDG this year, had exactly one Bo5 the entire year they lost (in game 5 due to EDG's excellent draft counters). They absolutely styled on both of their 2nd place opponents (KOO/GE Tigers & KT Rolster) in Spring and Summer domestical finals 3-0, and by Worlds the EDG team they lost to at MSI got run over just as easily in Worlds '15 Groups. They had one of the most dominant Summer splits of any team, and like Damwon 2020 it seemed inevitable (and indeed was) they would win Worlds that year. All that, while Faker (and even Bengi in Spring playoffs and 3 regular season games) was splitting playtime due to Kkoma trying to preserve the team's versatility until Faker had his control mage glow-up in Summer. 2015 SKT had the same quality of JDG of being able to claw back from nearly any gold deficit (in an era without shutdown gold or tower bonuses), and nearly every player could shift their style to fit any comp and meta.
MaRin spent both domestic splits quietly being overshadowed by Smeb and Ssumday, yet clowned on both of them in the two respective finals. He was the reason SKT even made both domestical finals (i.e. Maokai play versus CJ Entus in Spring semis) and Game 5 at MSI, he was undefeatable on Maokai that year and probably the greatest Rumble player of all time even considering his strong competition in that regard. Bengi was the ultimate facilitator of his TWO different midlaners and their unique styles. Easyhoon was still a very strong individual player in his own right despite a more conservative playstyle to Faker, dunking on Kuro in Spring finals. Faker needs no additional glazing for the year he had in its totality. Bang was to SKT '15 what Ruler was to JDG '23 this year, sporting extraordinarily high KDA's and still clutch playmaking when necessary. Wolf was the perfect initiator and was perhaps the only weak point of the roster that year as Bengi had yet to significantly decline until the next year.
SKT 2015 is the only team besides T1 2022 to ever not finish at least 2nd place for the entire year at every tournament, both domestic and international, that they attended. Not even JDG this year could accomplish this, in no small part due to Faker once against standing in the way. All of this they accomplished during a year when China had parasitized much of the talent OGN had cultivated the year previous. It could perhaps be argued that weakening Korea made it easier for Faker to win domestically, but if that's the case, then what about Korea still finishing Top 4 minimum at Worlds in spite of losing nearly every player of their Top 4 teams (SSB, SSW, KTA, CJB) to China?
As a necessary addendum: JDG used two of the best individual players in their roles from Korea and still couldn't overcome Faker and T1 a second time this year, mind you, with a player (Ruler) who has prior experience dispatching them. If anything, the LPL should be way MORE dominant considering the sheer amount of top KR talent they have sapped since 2014. I'm sure they will be as soon as Faker retires and Korea loses interest in LoL as a result, but it is not this day.
Because they were downplaying SKT 15 competition saying the korean exodus has effected that. I would say they would just dominate regardless if the exodus happened or not. MaRin and Wolf and Bang is at its peak.
@@marson28 SKT 2015 lost to an EDG which has the two samsung members in it what makes you think they can even touch either SSW or blue?
Yeah the series which Faker only played 2 games out of 5@@theburden9920
@@marson28 and lost with his undefeated leblanc.
Damn I did NOT expect Thorin to mention Boards of Canada.. it's been a while since I heard that name :(
Some really good advice from that last question. Especially what IWD said at the end, what I myself should have learned way faster. If you know of yourself to be competent, you will be okay.
thinking on this more, I think they T1 rosters were pretty slept on in this video tbh, especially 2013 & 2016 SKT. Also no shot IG should be above 2022-2023 T1, they were way less consistent results-wise, had a less well rounded roster, and they had an easier worlds run.
It is their bias. T1 dominated the whole LPL (maybe not so much JDG) and won over their best team ever. But somehow it is more impressive to them seeing TheShy smashing Bwipo? Wunder? in a year that Korea was so affected by the changes in the jungle. And then IG proceeds to choke out of this world in the MSI of 2019 against NA. But that was not even mentioned, I think. Instead, they mention how T1 chokes (pretty fair) but they at least didn't choke to NA.
@@lmonarkl1158 The did mention IG choking to NA in MSI. This T1 roster is my favorite of all time but I think everything they said was fair. They were pretty lackluster all year until worlds. Which made the worlds run so much more hype and satisfying as a fan. And going through potentially the best team of all time to finally get their first Worlds title was perfect. But you cant be the best team of all time with that finals win %, and like they said if T1 dominates next year then they might be the best team all time
2016 SKT's argument falls apart when you consider that the Tigers were arguably better throughout the year. Tigers dominated both regular season splits, won Summer and still played SKT close in the greatest series ever. So while SKT won Spring, MSI and Worlds, the Tigers have a pretty considerable pound for pound case.
@@karljones7976 "They were pretty lackluster all year until Worlds."
I disagree with this a bit. In the regular spring split, T1 was so dominant they looked like they were the best team in the World by far. Most people seem to forget this because they choked the finals, but that was really the only series in Spring that they underperformed in. Otherwise, they looked great the entirety of the season.
As for SKT 2013, I agree with OP in that this team is slept on in this video. They were so impressive for a rookie team, beating veterans left and right. They were like the non-choking version of Griffin. Although I'm sure Dom won't have that many positive things to say about them mostly because he abhors (and is still traumatized by) Piglet lol.
@@jagonz70580 T1 were good in Spring but they still lost in the finals and when their weird bot picks stopped working they didn't look that good. The reason they won worlds was because the spring meta came back, in which they are gods. I would have liked to see however what would happen if there was double elim and JDG would have played this meta for longer.
When it comes to the "Best team of all time" debate, there are SO MANY criteria like: world titles, longevity (meta-proof or not), win rate (dominance level), etc. Ppl can have different opinion about their pick, but they will never go outside of these criteria.
And then, we have these three guys here decided to ignore ALL that🙄🙄, and come down to criteria like: the eyeball factor, communication issue, choke factor, fundamentals (aka, classis front-to-back teamfight), msi win (double elim ofc)......
No shit JDG is the best of all time then 😂😂. This entire critiria is tailor-made for JDG.
If you heavily weight longevity then the only viable answer is Moscow 5. They're the only team that met a consistent level of success with the same roster over a long period of time aside from that weird Voidle incident that we don't talk about.
So you want to base this on what? Titles won? Context matters
What is this comment, they mentioned dominance and also it seems like you misunderstood the exercise. It's roster's not organizations when they mention team, all worlds winner's have not won with the same exact roster. So things like worlds titles are a moot, also they argued worlds has had less importance than domestics, which is why Faker is untouchable as the GOAT if you remove worlds wins, because he fucking won 10 of them a handful of which were a lot harder to win than worlds. Longevity is also mentioned, which was the biggest knock to SSG. Jesus did you even watch the video?
as long as they are consistent on other sports im pretty fine with the jdg pick. as long as they all consider the 2007 patriots the best team of all time in football, and the 2015-16 warriors the best team in basketball. imo you need to win the big game at the end to be considered the best team of all time, but i can understand the position of someone who thinks jdg and the pats are the best teams ever. as long as they think both are.
I feel like all of the things applying to jdg‘s playstyle apply to 2015 skt only they were even closer to winning everything and were more dominant at worlds than jdg at their msi
also if we go player for player accountikg for skill inflation i feel like 2015 skt is as good as jdg (albeit that faker hard carries cause he was just sooooooooooo much above the rest it‘s insane i mean he do youargue for as 2nd at worlds febiven? bjergsen or rookie who went out in groups? xpeke who was already declining a bit? no one was remotely on fakers level
that game they lost in the finals was also from arrogance imo everyone knows they have the tigers number and they didnt care
it‘s 2015 skt for me
My main counter argument is that 2015 was the year where the majority of teams had either a talent or synergy vacuum due to the Korean Exodus.
The Korean league was easier than ever to win, due to every S tier from season 4 except for faker leaving to China.
Meanwhile China had major infrastructure issues and also had no experience with the mixed language rosters.
Overcoming adversity should matter when it comes to greatness. There was simply no competition in 2015. 2016 was more indicative of the true strength of that SKT roster.
2015 was one of the weakest years ever. Talent was so spread out, even EU looked good at worlds lol :D
Faker missed 8 games, how is that missing 25% when LCK awards is decided upon both domestical and international games? It counts the playoffs too so it's more like missing 15%.
Big KRIT is a good shout Dom, there are a few more modern rappers who i still really like today like Conway. Westside Gunn and JID too
Have you listened to Denzel Curry or JPEGMAFIA. Those are two modern rappers I really love
IG had a crazy ceiling, was super fun to watch them play but I'm weak to Damwon, Canyon was rank 1 in EUW playing top and mid, he is probably the best player to ever touch the game, to me they are the best team.
Canyone being the best player is massive cap.
Showmaker > canyon was just more flashy
Monte really wasn't kidding when he said he listened to all kinds of music huh
@Montecristo if you like Longest Johns then I highly recommend The Dreadnoughts, specifically their album Into the North. It's not acapella, but they have some really nice shanties. Joli Rouge is my fave
Absolutely disagree on JDG being in the conversation. Throughout this entire year, JDG played around Ruler. 369 was placed on tank, missing on engage support, kanavi on aggressive junglers. And somehow they played this style all year long without changing much. Which is why they got beaten by T1 eventually. T1 simply placed a ward in JDG's top jungle and lane crush you and it is game over. In short, JDG is not meta proof. They are just one-trick team.
I don't get why LPL fanboys place SO MUCH credit on how well a team can teamfight. To them, teamfight is EVERYTHING you need to judge if a team's good or bad. I personally watch a shit load of LPL and I do enjoy watching great teamfight, but never once did I believe that is the only way to win games. Btw, JDG is NOT the best teamfighting team ever. They are the best front-to-back teamfighting team, which is just one teamfight style out of many. If everyone are forced to play this style against each other, then maybe JDG is the best ever. But there are so many other winning strategies like poking, flanking, lane rushing, etc. If you want to the best, you gotta at least master a few of them so that you don't look like a fool when meta shift comes.
Great episode as always. but for what it's worth to the 59:27 point Monte made - "can a player win MVP with 25% games missed?" It did happen in the NBA but basically once - Bill Walton won his lone MVP in 1977 with 58 games played (70%), he broke his foot and came back for playoffs. Embiid last year also only played 66 so exactly 80%, Bob cousy won with 64 (78%) in 1957 too. So ye it's rare but technically possible to win MVP with so many games missed (not anymore in NBA now tho cos they just have introduced a lower bound of 65 games, so basically 80%, to be eligible). but Faker shouldn't win lck player of the year ofc, chovy was better whole year bar only worlds. the case in traditional sports does exist tho.
It's such a stupid conversation. Of course there is a strong argument to be made for Faker. No player demonstrated a higher value for his team than him. You can cope all you want, but a player can't show much more value than bringing a team from bottom 2 LCK to World Champions. Individual skill (though at worlds he was prob the best mid) is not the only way you can be a valuable player.
You can always say stuff like "well we dont know how Geng would look like without Chovy" which is a dumb argument. Most valuable player is something we can by definition never know. So we choose the player who has *shown* the highest value for his team. And for Faker, we have the information on what his team looks like without him, and we can infer how important he is. He showed, even if partly by absence, more value than any other LCK player this year.
The argument against Faker is that he wouldnt deserve it if you think that rather than about who is the MVP the award should be about "best individual play"
Chovy and GenG didn't do well in MSI either, not just world
To be fair, players are far more likely to be subbed out for a rest in traditional sports than in esports. It can be possible to give it to Faker, but not when he's not remotely the best player on his own team in the vast majority of the games he did play.
@@rocketpower3957 Aside of K'Sante, there's not a whole lot positive to say about Faker's MSI either.
JDG was paid and expected to win the world championship yet they didn't. They won and lost vs SKT in the two global semi-finals. They did not achieve the golden road and did not show dominance over Korean teams in their 4-5 best of 5's globally. They cannot be considered the best of all time unless you are talking about LPL domestically.
is there a fucking arguement about this topic when T1's won 4 times????
Because through the years the players changed except for Faker. If you wanna say the "greatest org" then yea its SKT, but an individual 5 man lineup is different.
Jdg is still the best team ever coz there is no double elimination in worlds according to Thorins mindset.
yes because all 3 skt and1 t1 teams are composed of 5 different players. you think if t1 just took OK BRO's 5 players for 2024 that team will be in the goat team conversation? get a grip
Mate, you are embarrassing our people. Please get a grip.
They're discussing 5 man lineups, not orgs. They literally state that at the beginning
Great content. Thank you.
On the topic of M5, it's pretty cool that Darien and Diamondprox still stream league
BEST CHRISTMAS GIFT EVER!!! LOVE THESE TYPES OF EPISODES!!
There's little more than half as many teams in MSI than Worlds.
Playins are pretty much identical, Worlds has one more bo5.
13 vs 22 teams.
Worlds has Swiss stage with 20 bo1s & 13 bo3s. And a normal single elim playoffs of 7 bo5s.
MSI has no Swiss and just 14 bo5s.
If Worlds got rid of Swiss, a double elim could work.
Swiss can have a maximum of 59 games (if 2-1) while 46 games (if 2-0).
7 extra bo5s can give us 35 games.
The format to MSI was nice. The patch was bs compared to what teams played in spring.
For 2018 RNG, I also think their group stage performance was very suspect and that the writing was on the wall even ahead of the G2 match. They lost to both C9 and Vitality, and nearly lost to C9 again in the tiebreaker.
1:01:01 Well, Dom has explicitly stated that he does hate T1, there is a clip of it from his stream somewhere.
Ofc I don't think Monte and Thorin are T1 haters though.
Idk about you but if a fan base wished death on my fiancé I would hate them too ngl
@@omarjafar846 wdym a fanbase , was it a few fans on twitter , i think punishing the biggest fanbase in lol for some twitter users sins is a bit much.
@@omarjafar846 calling a few fans fanbase? Nice logic dude
@@omarjafar846 I never said he doesn't have a reason to hate them, I'm just pointing out that he DOES in fact hate T1 despite what others might say because he even stated it himself.
That being said, I also don't really like it when people group all T1 fans together like we are all crazy, T1 has a lot of extremely over the top fans with disgusting behaviour but all of us aren't like that.
If him hating t1 influences his decisions that should be objective as an lol expert and an industry insider, it should be rightly called out and criticized. These talkshows does not exist for him to wail like a kid.
39:53 well it could compute given those mix, doesn’t work as well for taking other teams into account
I feel like the title should be "who is the best roster" not the best team. For the best team there's not much debate
Then the title would be what is the best organisation??? What are you even talking about, team makes perfect sense
THANK THE LORD I NEEDED SOME DOM IN MY LIFE
Imagine Thorin stating that never considers t1 to be the best (I am not saying they are or are not. I am just giving an argument) is because they are fcking finals. But then considers jdg to be the best team not just this year but the best team ever. Who wasnt even able to reach worlds finals.
Yeah I think that is an argument but the contexts of each final is different. Last year MSI, they showed up as THE favorite, and lost in the finals. Then in regional 2022 summer playoffs, even if you say T1 was fighting GENG for 1st, the latter absolutely spanked the former in finals. Still, T1 came into worlds as one of the favorite, and probably 90+% favorite for the finals, only to lose to 6th seed regular LCK. People believed in the DRX cinderella run, but they didn't really think they'd take T1 there. Then in 2023, you can pretty much disregard their summer for this conversation. In spring, even though they were a disappointment to their regular season, they fought well in both playoffs and MSI, but they were never clearly the best team. They lost in 4 finals (2022 MSI, 2022 summer and worlds, 2023 spring) where they were in contention to be champions and turning their narrative around. But they choked 2 as the favorite, and the other 2 they weren't even the clear favorite. I think these losses docked their place in this conversation massively no? That's not even mentioning this year MSI and summer btw. As for JDG, they pretty much played the real finals against T1 anyways. I don't think you can watch how Weibo played in the finals and say, yeah, they played better than JDG against T1. That's just a random seeding without double elims problem.
@@nguyentri3608 for the DRX finals last year. During worlds T1 was not the heavy favorites to win the tournament it was GenG. Drx defeated Geng in semifinals. Finals came and what we usually see during finals it is just pure stomp so in everyones mind. Higher seed would just stomp the lower seed. That is why T1 was the heavy favorite. Not because they are the best team coming into worlds. They are the favorite even though drx was completely smurfing worlds with the current meta in their favor. Did T1 choke during finals? Nope drx played better. T1 was overconfident which they even confirmed during interviews. They underperformed during finals and thus pay for it. What you could consider choking is LNG and GenG performance in quarters.
Also the argument that ow these team are favor means they should win 100% the time. So why even play the game if that is the mindset? Upsets also happen during tournament just like what happened to wbg and thats why we have an abbysmal final. The quality of gameplay in jdg vs t1 was alot better. But does that merit them to be the best all time? Like seriously best all time but cant even win worlds. In my eyes if you should be the best team all time. Most if not all your series in worlds should be sweeps. T1 manage to worlds with 1 or 2 losses for the whole tourney. But yeah jdg is better.
But then again I think I am the one who is dilusional.
@@therainguy0312You are kinda coping tho. That like saying t1 this year wasn’t heavy favored vs wbg cause geng/jdg were consider favorite before the tournament. T1 as the tournament went on was favored vs drx by a lot. Eye test and team quality all point to t1 being a better team. However drx was definitely a bigger challenge for t1 due to being their main scrim partner, Zeka was the best player in the tournament even before the final, and better drafting/run than wbg.
JDG vs T1 was the finals tho
@@oreoyo5639 they are heavy favorites when they faced wbg because they defeated every team that is favored to win worlds except for Geng and geng never even made it past quarterfinals. Ofcourse they would be heavy favored. They defeated all the "stronger team", they are dictating the meta and they are fighting a team who isnt meta favored and just got lucky with swiss and draws thats why they got to the finals. So whats the point of comparing the finals last year and this year. The only eastern team that wbg beat is blg. While need to claw their way into finals and did beat decent teams.
Once again better team/favored team wont always mean that you would win 100% of the time. So where is the copium? Was I sad that t1 lost? Yeah but then again its not like they got destroyed like wbg did. It was a good finals and I do think drx deserved the win.
Those people who are saying that keep on saying jdg is the best team all time or that t1 only got worlds because there is no lower brackets are definitely coping.
I love that DRX gets a (not) LOOOL
What is with the griffin roaster ?
They looked unbeatable but I don’t fully remember why it failed.
I think it got labeled as choking but can’t remember
Griffin dominated right from the start (Summer 2018 -> Summer 2019) but were stopped by the two Telecom companies wielding super teams. Amazing that by IWD's own description of the "ideal" team, Griffin fits it exactly to a tee. And yet, apparently, like this current iteration of T1, they are "chokers". Except that T1 has been in 5/6 of the tournament finals of the last two years, whereas Griffin only managed only three domestic finals (all of which they lost) in a row yet never made it farther than Quarters in international events.
Notable that JDG 2023, the de facto best team in the world, still only made it as far as the previous year's roster at Worlds despite the massive upgrades in the carry positions, losing to the same team (T1) both times. It's almost like JDG is just Griffin 2.0, except rather than developed talent that made it so dominant, it took the greatest Korean ADC of all time and the Chinese Chovy to finally give them the level up only for Faker to assert dominance two Worlds in a row with the same champion.
During worlds 2014 I specifically remember Monte saying something like “if you think Samsung White is good, wait until you see Blue - they’re better”. The format was strange in that we didn’t see SSB play until like day 5 and up until then, although SSW looked very dominant, Monte still had a lot of faith in SSB.
He predicted White to win.
Well Blue actually WAS better before Worlds, they kept on beating White domestically
This is so funny. Or tragic. Monte never said that, in fact he said SSW would win it all, and you just blurt this blatant falsehood out there. Yet people upvote it because it reaffirms their lowly bias.
@@CountCocofang I kind of vaguely remember him saying that as well. I could be wrong. he definitely predicted white to win, but I remember him saying something along those lines.
@@pandapo7542 LoLWorldChampionship does reruns of all Worlds in their entirety. Season 4 re-aired from August 28 to September 1. In the very first desk segment that Monte was on he said SSB has beaten SSW repeatedly but SSW is stronger right now and will win it all. That is literally the opposite of saying "SSB is better" or anything similar.
great vid, sad to hear it wasn't well received, commenting for algo!
I agree Chovy is the best mid, potentially the best player in the world but if you make the narrative that T1 can't be the best team because they lost all these finals but then excuse Chovy because he only disappears in some big games you contradict yourselves. Personally I don't think that either T1 or Chovy are the best in the world but definitely have the potential to be maybe next year.
Also can't make that argument and then put SSW, who literally never won a single other tournament, ahead of them
@@david7996 I personally agree with SSW over them since they were unbelievably dominant
It’s not a contradiction at all. Chovy is the best mid at the moment and modern t1 has had many moments where they were the best team in the world, it’s just that they fall short when you look at the all time list. This is also true of chovy, who falls short of the absolute best on the all time mid laner list because of his finals struggles. If you added a clutch factor to chovy he’d be in the convo with people like rookie and faker
Why is this contradictory, they don't argue Chovy to be the goat.
@@stamatisarvanitidis2430 this t1? Maybe, but tbh both were extremeö, dominant and belong in the conversation
2015 skt was more or at least as dominant
Very poor quality video, Im not even a T1 fan or what, but it when you talk about SKT 2015 and T1 2022/2023 you seem to forget to say why they were very good and on this list... You just try to explain why they aren't that good lol
Can a team that has never won a 'single' worlds be in the contest?
I don't think so. I don't think JDG can get a chance.
its 3 lpl copium together doing the show
So in your argument, 2022 DRX is in the contention over 2019 G2 and 2023 JDG, despite winning nothing all year except the last tournament.
@@nguyentri3608I wouldn’t say they are the best team ever but it was the most insane tournament run from a team ever.
@@nguyentri3608no but a worlds title should be a minimum, because that's the end goal for everything, that's the most important title of the year
They are arguing best team in any given year of all time. Not best team of all time. Take your copium elsewhere
I think JGD can be classed as best team ever and at the same time not depending on what you value. For example, when you look at team fights most people will say JGD is the best team ever, but I don't agree. JGD were the best front to back team fight team, but as soon as the meta shifted their team fighting got significantly worse it's the reason why they lost to T1 and looked shaky against KT. Most of the year front to back team fights were the meta, until worlds. So, can a team be classed as the best ever if they are amazing at one type of gameplay which was the same for the entire year then as soon as it changes, they looked demonstrating worse? just a thought? I would still rank them very highly.
It's JDG
@@Seven-xl5zw No No No, JGD was the one winning Worlds, and JDG lost to T1
@@edwardwongliupepelutivrusk1262
The team is called "JDG" not "JGD" that's what I'm saying
"So, can a team be classed as the best ever if they are amazing at one type of gameplay which was the same for the entire year then as soon as it changes, they looked demonstrating worse?"
Their answer is in the same video, although I don't think they're aware of the inconsistency in their reasoning. See 1:05:18 - 1:05:47 , they basically destroyed their entire argument for JDG.
@@jagonz70580nah they're consistent, consistent in hating on non LPL/non-KT teams
Tsm taking a game off of ssw was like when when the KD warriors went 16-1 in the playoffs but instead of Lebron and kyrie having one of the best games of their lives it was dandy and pawn fkin around
If JDG won they could have cemented being the best team to be ever constructed. Losing at the most important tournament out of the 4 matters there resume has to be discounted. Maybe it just bad luck or they folded under the pressure but ur season has to be discounted just like how the Warriors 73 win season were. Just like track athlete losing at the olympics would. When you know certain event is the pinnacle of your sport that moment matters to your legacy. JDG for that reason can not be the greatest team ever.
@@Ps-we3pp go ask JDG how it feels to win the pinnacle tournament of the year then and not some worthless tournament that no one should care about
@@TheTdg97 The importance fans put on tournament doesnt change to fact that worlds format is garbage as fuck
I like the narrative of jdg but they ironically lost in team fighting and clutch moments what if's aren't real and g2 got probably one of the luckiest runs ever along with drx i know its a troll when they say worlds aren't important
100% agree with Dom. Texas bbq destroys Korean bbq. It's great for hanging out with people but the food is very average
Felt like every time t1 get to final, faker will take out Gods and play in front of the team and be like “don’t you dare let riot make 3rd video about me losing at final”
Well we are getting hyped about g2 being once in finals of worlds... That fucker was how many times in finals? 6 times? And he won 4 on top of that.
SKT 2015 and 2013 winter ogn are the only correct answer
Dom is super based for the BIG KRIT take.
37:27 imho that langye’s just saying words, redundant almost, the point is in sufficiently constructed arfument
The year is 2030. Team 1 (formerly known as T1) celebrates their 8th title, with faker once again silencing any doubters claiming middle aged men cant play at the highest level. The closely fought 3-2 win prevented underdogs Good Luck Have Fun Gaming from completing the Cinderella run, being the only chinese roster to feature only 2 world champions on it. As the Brazilean crowd celebrated the famous final at the Maracana, meanwhile in some dark and dimly lit room in an undisclosed cold and wet part of Britain, there sat an angry ginger bloke. He is inexplicably wearing a thick trench coat indoors despite having central heating, and is cursing at his monitor. Notepad up, he begins to write his 17th thinkpiece this year on why the worlds format sucked and we should all stop having fun. Discord rings, its time to join his third podcast of the day. Excited, he has already mentally prepared his opening monologue, but feels a tinge of sadness when he realizes that once again his arguments will fall on deaf ears.
JDG doesn’t have longevity and a world title. T1 has Longevity and world title, dominance. 2world Final and 1 win, 18-0 split. They still have 1more year.
Yes but JDG also don’t have the multiple chokes T1 has had
@@omarjafar846yes and jdg couldnt even make worlds finals after spending 16m
@@omarjafar846JDG don't get to choke in final as long as they dont make finals, right?
@@omarjafar846JDG choke 2022 and 2023 😂 just because JDG didn't play at Final didn't mean JDG didn't Choke as LPL #1 for 2022 world and 2023
@@omarjafar846 not winning world title is a choke for someone’s goat team. For me they didnt choke cause they aren’t greatest of all time.
Any version of t1 not bring the best incomingggg
My argument against jdg is other teams are being hit cause of the meta they play in, like the current T1 roster. But JDG, THIS is the only year we’ll ever get to see them. THIS is the only meta they’ll ever play together. They may have played the best league we’ve ever seen, but only for a year. In a way like, they’re the modern version of samsung blue. Won everything but when it came to worlds, just didn’t make it.
"best league" is subjective when it's in clown fiesta region called china.
Alright boys this show is no longer unbiased and analytical one , so what now we have dom that hate Lck/T1 and super biased towards lpl , thorin just a bot that get fed lpl biased opinions , and monte as we know has super dogshit opinions and goes with the show , this shit is getting real bad , Dom on The T1 side didn't mention how strong their record 19-2 at world vs the the so called best reging in the world that has the "godly" team Jdg , and he mentioned how this eduration team of T1 is a meta one trick , but in the span of 2 years somehow forgot they won spring 2022 after going 18-0 with a compeletly diff meta , and went to worlds 2022 finals with a complete diff meta , somehow Jdg that was abusing the shit out of zeri and tank toplane meta this year , when they played against T1 this worlds with diff meta got shit on ,
thorin and the eye test. name a more iconic duo
SKT w Marin and Koo Tigers were both really good teams.
I'd argue that no team could beat the Marin Skt team. They were so good. The meta was so nice for them aswell.
Ig lost to na half a year after winning worlds, they were fraudulent as a team being propped up entirely by their solo laners
I also think that REAL Italian food is not very heavy… Just the Americanised version of it is
SKT from OGN Winter 13/14 was the most dominant team ever.
Agreed. Sure, the level of play isn't as impressive by comparison but no player at any tournament has ever come close to the gap of dominance Faker had in that single run.
Anyone who hasn't heard big krit gotta go listen to 4eva is a mighty long time. 90 minutes of straight fire.
Reading comments about league is known to cause brain damage so I figured I'd comment on music instead.
No team was near 2020 DWG peak. JDG has the consistency, DWG has the peak
That's not even remotely true.
Yep people forget what dwg did all summer and worlds they made every team look like bronze
@@georgesmith6242 2020 Damwon dodged the (at-the-time) 2nd best team in the World (Top Esports, who won the Mid-Season Cup) because Suning upset them. They don't have anything like the resume SSW in 2014, SKT in 2015 or even IG in 2018 have in terms of Worlds runs because they didn't even dispatch another main contender. 2020 G2 was noticeably weaker than their 2019 dominance, and had the bot meta not quite literally fell into Damwon '20's lap, BeryL and Ghost might not have been able to cross the threshold to a worlds victory.
@@DarkCyberElf Choke esports would’ve got railed by DWG 2020 stop coping
T1 smashing the entire LPL honestly makes JDG's domestic titles a lot less impressive.
what does that make GenG's domestic dominance then? Every LPL team is shitting on GenG internationally now.
Geng was shit at international comps for a long while. Its almost as if its their team colour. Geng losing to lpl teams is nothing close to t1 winning every single lpl team.
T1 only chokes vs lck teams so I wonder what wouldve happened if they faced any during worlds
It’s almost like T1 smashed the LPL during one tournament, with one meta. You cannot compare the teams’ form at that point to say that’s the true strength of the teams the entire year. What about the fact that LCK teams couldn’t even make the finals of MSI.
@@user-rz5kp8np1s cope and seethe LPL frog T1 just speed ran your whole region literally embarrassed every Chinese team they made the millionaire JDG roster disband 😭
Cry more T1 owns LPL
Crazy that this just dropped - I was just thinking about a video idea for this duo yesterday:
I would love to see y’all rank the top players historically from each of the major reasons. Something like a five man 1st and 2nd team by role only for what those players accomplished in and for that reason specifically (so only Rookie’s accomplishments in LPL for example).
I think you three have been around long enough to fairly give credit to players who were dominant before most people really watched league. Hope you consider this for the future!
Trio*
Region**
If you go on their channel I believe last year they did a role by role, goat players discussion with dom that is like 3+ hours long 😁
@@slimthug166 That’s actually one of my favorite videos! I just think it would be interesting because some of those players on the list (Flame, Impact, Rookie, Ruler, etc) have had multi-regional success and very few western players were even mentioned (which is warranted). Just curious who they would say are the best ever in NA and Europe and some of the Korean China players may be interesting when accounting for multi-regional successes.
The part about JDG communication is wrong from what I have seen/heard. Ruler is the only one that doesn’t speak chinese.
JDG has to lose some points for choking if you consider pre tournament expectations and even quotes from content creators, "if this team does not win worlds it is a colossal failure." They only lost 1 bo5 but it was the mpst important bo5 and they essential lost to a seed in the dark horse realm if 5-6 range pretournament rankings. Anyone would have had jdg, gen g and lng over t1 and most likey BLG and KT over T1 too. T1 was second seed off of point and they just scrapped by KT who kind of inted their drafts. It seems like it was mostly kanavi choking but to be honest JDG just as whole just wasnt quite the same. JDG was still incredible and the best team this season i just have a hard time giving best of all time to "chokers" like the current argument against t1
Hasn't Brady won an MVP after a 4 game suspension tho?
"Pick a top laner that can play weakside"
369 became invisible in 3 games.
no worlds jingdong lol best team?
What the fuck