Why It's Impossible to Pitch at Coors Field
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- čas přidán 11. 03. 2023
- Creator: Jordan
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The Colorado Rockies have never been able to figure out pitching, but it’s never been their fault. It is all but impossible to pitch in their home stadium…
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Imagine getting drafted by the Rockies as a young pitcher. I’d cry
😂😂😂
Front offices are smarter than that.
If a pitcher has bad numbers and he's from Colorado, they'll just look at his away stats.
Still, it's pretty unfair, but FO's are smart enough to know that a 5 ERA pitcher can still be really good if he's from Colorado.
Imagine being a Rockies fan like me 💀💀
I’d still love the opportunity and take it so fast 😢
As a college pitcher who currently pitches in Denver, I would KILL to be drafted by the rockies.
Maybe they should try a 6 pitcher rotation with 3 dedicated home pitchers and 3 dedicated away pitchers. That way they don't have to go back and forth making adjustments.
Congrats, you just landed yourself as the GM of the Rocks!
@@shidditiddis ...shit. can I take back what I said?
@@kabby29 you’re the only one who can save them, David.
@@kabby29 Maybe you can try to also find a pitching coach who can teach how to pitch for soft contact while at mile high and build up some good outfielders.
Please David, generations of Rockies fans depend on you 🙏
2:10, its actually the opposite. The magnus effect is what gives pitches their break, the higher the altitude, the less magnus effect there is because the air is less dense.
2009: "I am the lowest all-time Rockies home ERA at 4.41"
2018: "Hold my beer"
Correction, the closest the Rockies got to having an ERA under 4 according to the chart you put up, it came in2018 with a 4.33 eight oints lower than their 4.41 ERA in 2009.
Also, the home-road splits slide doesn't match the full season slide, for at least 2007 which has a full season 4.65 ERA but ERA calculated from the home-road splits slide of 4.31
Something else surprisingly not mentioned here for pitchers coming to Coors in new Purple and Black, is the mental strain of knowing you have elite stuff that results in elite results and statistics, but then seeing your stuff get absolutely annihilated constantly. I’m sure it’s a gut-punching feeling to constantly not give up any runs when you have an impressively low ERA year after year, to then seeing that balloon higher and higher every outing, seeing the home runs leave the field, seeing some less-than stellar defense cost you even further. It’s incredibly demoralizing. That Nolan Arenado dugout tirade video comes to mind. Once that demoralization sets in deep enough, one would start to question the quality of their stuff, maybe make unnecessary or extreme changes, get injured trying to, or further fuel the implosion.
The field dimensions at Coors are a HUGE factor too. Sooo much outfield to cover causes more base hits. Then those base hits turn into 1st-to-3rds the next time the ball is hit.
Well…… what’s the alternative, exactly???? If they had a smaller outfield there’d just be even more home runs……
@@ifbfmto9338 super tall green monster type fences- just think about it, you could make them like the mountains too... Want to hit a homerun at Coors? Gotta hit it over the mountains!
They'll never do it, but it would be awesome and they should!
@@fowcc They’ll never do it, correct
And look at what just happened in the higher elevation Mexico City game, it is what it is 🤷🏼♂️
@@ifbfmto9338 So yeah take the Mexico City dimensions, bring in CF 10 ft, then make the fences varying between 20-30 feet all around. :Chefs kiss:
@@fowcc I mean it’s not going to happen, but it’s genuinely not a bad idea
2:19 the graph says that the lowest era was 4.33 in 2018 not 4.41 in 2009
sorta wonder if this video is put together by an online team at that point. Hard to miss that stat.
@@Parlimant_Strifey yeah, especially since it's just to the left of the year they cited! and Arizona also has very dry air (although not the altitude)
@@Parlimant_Strifey It's still a good video you got to watch for free though. Don't forget that.
@@MrPezdispencer stop white knighting, you are better then that. Nothing is free either, stop eating up that yummy nonsense you are fed.
Maybe its league adjusted better? Why wouldn't they display ERA+ for that though? Pretty sure they just missed it.
I watched Kyle Freeland dominate in 2018. l wish he still pitched like he did
he still has good stuff, but he got pretty mercilessly scouted, and struggled with blisters forcing him to switch from his infamous slider to now a decent curveball as his main secondary.
I went from playing college ball in az with all wood bats (junior college) to playing in the Rocky Mountain athletic conference which is mainly in Colorados elevation this past year and it’s almost an entirely different game solely from the elevation. Team ERA’a went from like 4 in Arizona to 9 in Colorado😂
I feel you in that one, Youngblood, I played in the RMAC 12-15 years ago when composite bats were the thing. Thankfully, my senior year, those were banned but scores were still silly. Those days we had the NCAA leader in batting average and RBI not get drafted but pitchers with 6 ERAs getting drafted. No one respected the offensive numbers the RMAC put up. 😂
Honest question: If we are so quick to discredit hitting numbers at Coors, should we not also discredit pitching numbers at Kaufman Stadium, one of MLB's biggest ballparks? And likewise, why do we not praise Mike Moustakas (2017), Jorge Soler (2019) and Salvador Perez (2021) for their accomplishments "in the ballpark they play in"?
Thanks for doing this video. I'm trying to learn more about the game, and it's history as a late-bloomer. I found this really fascinating.
Pitchers with great seasons at CO should be elevated in Cy Young voting just the same that hitters get dropped for playing in CO. MVP caliber seasons see hitters drop 3-5 spots in MVP voting just for playing at that elevation, but pitchers don't see that same improvement in votes. Jimenez's 2010 didn't see a single first place vote yet his numbers were comparable to Halladay's AND he did it half at Coors!
You forgot about the "hangover effect" of going up high, then low, then high with not enough time to adjust to either.
Very true
For a second I thought you replied to yourself
It's tough but the Rockies just need to be better. Study and draft pitchers who grew up in Colorado and high altitudes. Sign actual offensive stars not aging Ian Desmonds and struggling Kris Bryants. It's pretty simple but they are in Denver for Entertainment purposes so.. 🤷♂️
Maybe MLB should introduce a COORS Baseball which has elevated seams
Go further, have designated baseballs for every 500 feet density altitude up to 6500 feet, whatever the density altitude is that day use that ball
The alcoholic in me thought you were talking about a baseball shaped can of coors lol
A large part of why the pre-2002 seasons at Coors were so insane is because the baseballs they received from the MLB would actually shrink and get harder in the dry air of Colorado. They were the first team to ever install a humidor for their baseballs in 2002 because it got so bad, so now the balls are stored in a special climate-controlled storage room at 70 degrees and 50% relative humidity (which is well above the 30-40% average RH, and colder average temperatures, that Denver sees otherwise).
That alone had a dramatic effect on the scoring at Coors field, but obviously you can only do so much when the pitches don't move like they're supposed to. German Marquez is a good example of a pitcher who's terrible elsewhere (because his fastball is, admittedly, sub-par in other stadiums) but good at Coors specifically because his terrible fastball turns into a unique pitch that batters struggle to hit once it starts to drop even further at Coors, like a fastball with the drop of a change-up.
@@Pretzulkj That's interesting.
@@ChampionsClub2030 nice, someone that understands density altitude. Not understanding density altitude has killed MANY pilots. Hot air is less dense. When it's hot and you're at 6,500 ft trying to get off the ground, you're gonna have problems if you're not accounting for density altitude. But yeah, I like your idea.
Coors Field is the equivalent of 200cc in Mario Kart 8, total chaos
Ubaldo Jimenez had a couple great seasons as a rocky including the best in recent memory in 2010 when he went 19-8 with a 2.88 ERA and ERA+ of 161. Finished 3rd in Cy Young voting behind Wainwright and the winner Roy Halladay who had 21 wins on top of a 2.44 ERA, 8.5 WAR and a completely absurd 9 complete games, 4 shutouts and 250 innings pitched.
Makes you wonder what that year for Ubaldo would have looked like in a normal park. He was absolutely electric at that point in time. That said, Halladay is my favorite player to ever toe the rubber so I'm glad he won.
Great content. Two other things that are often overlooked is how hitters struggle on the road having to adjust to different pitches especially after a long home stand and how the longevity of starters at Coors is shorter then other teams.
Nice video. ONe other note that goes back further than Jimenez and Freeland is Jason Jennings' rookie season in 2002. While he was named Rookie of the Year that year, one could make a legit case for him as a Cy Young candidate, especially by the stats used more back then. Jennings went 16-8 in 2002, but he also had three no-decisions at home where he left with a lead and the bullpen blew it. Especially in those pre-humidor days, that 16-8 and 4.52 ERA should have had Jennings a fairly close second to the Big Unit that year.
Thoughts from a sad Rockies fan...
Basically what needs to happen is either designated road/home starters or the Rockies front office needs to focus on the type of pitchers that have success.
Successful being pitchers with cutters, sliders, and circle change ups as horizontal movement is not harmed by high elevation but can actually be helped, pitchers with 4 seam and sinker combos preferably with low spin rate, and pitchers that throw a curve ball that isn't a hard break but just falls out like a knuckle curve or a 12-6.
We also need to have good outfielders. We have had a lot of premier infield talent which is important because how fast the infield is. However, the same cannot be said for the outfield. Players like Kris Bryant can be a fine enough outfielder for most teams, but not for the Rockies. Bryant said that's it's too hard to do. We throw out guys like Bryant and Blackmon for their offense but they will cost even more runs defensively. You have to have fast outfielders with good range like Larry walker or cargo.
However none of that will happen with the dumpster fire front office and bud black as manager who has no idea how to play in Colorado.
100% agree. It's hard to wear the purple and black.
@@wildsmiley it's harder when most people that wear it (Denver sports fans) will go more for the experience than a competitive team.
Huston Street posted an impressive 3.51 ERA in his 3 seasons with Colorado, which is a bit like saying "that pitcher hits .200, what a great hitter!"
3.50 is actually a pretty good era
Missed the 4.33 in 2018
Ubaldo Jimenez is as good as you can get as a Rockies Pitcher
True
His slider was disgusting in the late 2000s. Near unhittable.
Great video. Coors is a lot more than just a great hitters park, playing there is very different from everywhere else
7:53 I was at that game. Wade Davis scared me then. But now I can look at the facts and see why he digressed.
@james denlea sure?
Bud black’s comments there show that he is a dinosaur. I think a different approach at coors would be a great idea. Don’t know what would work but I think it should be encouraged
The outfield is huge, and OFs have to play deep, all the bloop hits/Texas Leaguers that fall in, plus the infield is hard as a rock most of the year, grounders get through. And cheap homers. That is what kills pitching
100%
I want to see a knuckleball pitcher at coors
I was thinking that too. I wonder if the thinner, drier air would make a knuckleball move even more than usual.
Gotta find a knuckleballer first - they seem to be a dying breed
The Rockies organization just needs to actually invest into a pitching staff for once or their team in general to become playoff competitive.
Fantastic video
I really enjoyed it
I never heard of this
Great job 😂
I had heard of the magnus effect affecting how much a ball sinks, hooks, etc. But wow I didnt realize it was THAT influential. A couple inches difference on a pitch is massive.
edit - Nomo was sooooo entertaining to watch when he first got in the bigs. we'd never seen a delivery like his and it was just fun.
Great video. Subscribed.
I found the game that 3:56 took place on (because I was bored). The game was the Mets vs. the Rockies, April 16, 2013. In the footage, David Wright grounds out to Chris Nelson, who then turns a 5-4-3 double play. The Rockies would beat the Mets 9-8 in extras on a walk-off single by Jordan Pacheco.
I like learning abt science behind sports for no reason
That’s weird because having grown up in Colorado Springs which is higher elevation than Denver, the guys I caught for that had legit curve balls and numerous breaking pitches never had issues with their breaking balls. This is high school/college guys but still. I didn’t realize it was so hard to pitch at Coors field
The difference is those guys your playing with are mostly playing in Colorado. So they don't need to adjust to playing at lower elevations that much.
The issue is playing at 5183ft in Coors on Monday, then having to play at 13ft in petco park on Friday.
2:30 "the lowest is a 4.41 ERA in 2009" - and a 4.33 from 2018 smiling at me
You discussed how pitchers' ERAs would change when they moved between the Rockies and other teams. However, wouldn't it be better to look at FIP instead, in case the Rockies happens to not invest in good fielding?
I think the vast size of the outfield has a lot to do with that.
ERA+ would be a better thing to look at instead of FIP imo. Especially since soft contact specialists are perhaps the most reliable thing you could attempt to acquire for part of the pitching core.
First female I've come across talking about sports on CZcams. Fantastic video. Just subscribed. I clicked on this because my buddy from high school is the back up catcher for the Rockies.
You’re spot on. Less friction means less break and also more flight.
Given the problems stem partially from how the altitude affects spin, you’d think the Rockies would be encouraging at least some of the pitchers in their farm system to try picking up the knuckleball.
Finally someone addressed the real issue with colors. Only thing people mention is that the ball goes further off the bat.
Nice video. I feel like Pedro Astacio did well there. He was there for awhile and wasn't terrible. That'd be an interesting deep dive.
pedro astacio never had a full season in Colorado with an ERA lower than 5 🤷🏻♂️
@@gregmonahan Ok. He had some winning years and seemed successful in the world of Rockies pitchers and the point of the video was that a lot of them struggled. They all usually struggle there but he was just sort of an exception.
We might not be good, but going to a game at coors is always exciting
Excellent vid but you didn't even mention the humidor! It was supposed to have AN effect when they implemented it in the early 00s but whether it has or not (and in which way) escapes me rn
It definitely has had an effect to make baseball more normal. Prior to the installation of the humidor, Coors saw just 3 games where fewer than three runs were scored (3-0, 2-1, or 2-0 scores). Since the humidor was installed it's still not an everyday occurrence, but it's not nearly as rare to see a low-scoring game there, and the first three 1-0 games were played in 2005-2006. The first seven years of the park saw an average score of game of 7-6 (7.12 runs for the Rockies vs 6.44 for their opponents. Since then, the average score of a game is 6-5 (5.53 for the Rockies vs 5.49 for the opponents).
Along with "do you wanna pitch good at home or on the road? Pick one", while they're AT coors a 2nd layer to that onion is "are you going to try and induce contact given the cavernous outfield or are you going to try and get guys out on your own?" I think the only way a pitcher could be successful there long-term is someone with distracting pre-pitch movement like a Johnny Cueto or Nestor Cortez, who doesn't rely on a high-spin rate, and is a sinkerballer or someone who naturally induces soft contact. Short of that anyone who goes there is immediately going to see their ERA and other peripherals pop up.
Good point at the end about pitchers deserving more credit if hitters get discredited at Coors. You know what though, Larry Walker and Nolan Arenado both ended up being just fine after leaving the Rockies though.
It’s comforting to know that the Rockies never having good pitching isn’t solely the fault of the pitching staff
I don't follow the Milb close enough but do the Albuquerque Isotopes (CO Rockies affiliate) who also play a mile above sea level have similar ballpark stats to Coors field?
Cricket watcher here. So turning this on its head, are there ballparks renowned for the ball does more for pitchers than what might be considered the norm? Also, what other factors come into play as a whole, which affect break and/or drop? Humidity? Temperature? Cloud cover? Stadium design? (height of stands affecting airflow or currents).
The ballparks where the ball breaks the most are the ballparks that are at sea level, but every ballpark (with the exception of Coors) is at a close enough elevation that pitches behave basically the same everywhere.
Humidity, temp, and all other things you mentioned don't really affect the break of a pitch either, wind can affect a pitch, but since balls with spin on them will always have some type of stability, the wind only really affects balls when the pitcher throws a knuckleball (a pitch that intentionally has as little spin as possible).
There are parks known for being pitcher parks for another reason though, large dimensions will make it harder to hit home runs, and stadiums that are right on the ocean will have fly balls fall quicker because of their humid marine layer. An example of a very pitcher friendly park would be PetCo Park in San Diego, it has probably the strongest marine layer of any stadium in baseball and flyballs just can't seem to make it out of that place.
@@nickmanville900 Thanks for the detailed reply. I mentioned those factors to get a sense of how it contrasts to cricket ball behaviour.
I will say that games at Coors field are really fun to watch
Commenters on Rockies hitters: "Well you, see they were only good because of Coors Field"
Me: So Freeland should have won the Cy Young in 2017 since he pitched half the time at Coors?
Them: "No, that's not how it works"
Why not focus on bringing in denver born and raised pitching staff? Surely they'd have an advantage
I feel like they should have balls with more raised seams at Coors. It won't eliminate the discrepency, but it would make pitches move a bit more
This topic is also why they switched their AAA affiliate to Albuquerque. It’s a dry air environment higher than Coors with an even bigger outfield
Lifelong Rockies fan. I remember watching their first game when I was a kid. Even got to go watch them play at the Broncos old Mile High stadium before Coors. I got to see games at a few old stadiums. Giants at Candlestick and Braves at Turner and Fulton County in the early 90s. Anyways, Coors has ruined a lot of pitchers careers. Tough to find good pitchers when no one wants to pitch there. Rockies need to go after more locally raised guys like Kyle Freeland. They seem to have more success pitching at altitude🤷♂
who'd think, locals who grew up in the altitude, practiced and played in it their whole life, would be better at playing in general than guys from outside lol.
Some of these stats are very nitpicking. Yes coors field is harder to pitch at. But Wade Davis was old when the Rockies overpaid him and his velocity and spin rate dropped drastically and he was no better on the road. He was awful his last two years home and road. Tyler Anderson ERA in Colorado was way higher because he walked a ton of batters when he was with the Rockies and after maturing and cutting down on walks his ERA dropped.
But the altitude isn’t the only reason it’s harder to pitch at Coors. Should have mentioned it’s the biggest outfield in baseball by a ton which means that balls that are usually outs at other stadiums turn into singles and doubles at Coors field.
Also should mention this is why Rockies hitter splits are often so drastically different. Every other hitter in the MLB sees pitches at home and away move identically, Rockies hitters have to adjust to how pitches move literally every time they go home or go on the road which is a challenge no other hitters in baseball have to face.
This makes Hideout Nomo's no-hitter so impressive.
Hideout? You mean Hid K o
I give my money to ubaldo Jimenez he did his damn thang at Coors. I get it tho not many pitchers that are ace type or at least a solid 1 or two don't want to go there. Why? Because of Coors reputation, it's a launching pad short of NASA sending a rocket or a shuttle into space ..
Jimenez and Francis are legendary Rockies pitchers.
@@Parlimant_Strifey thats right. How can I forget J.francis. the original lefty wise short of m. Hampton.
The girl commentating is awesome! She needs to do more videos
This video does not even touch on the fact that the ball travels further off the bat at Coors than it does at sea level. To mitigate this effect they made the the fences extra deep, probably 20 feet farther than what would be considered standard. But a larger outfield now means there is more ground that the fielders need to cover so they have to play a little deeper and more bloop hits will drop in in front of them. The only thing they can do to change this is to put a big bubble over the stadium and pressurize to down closer to sea level like an airplane cabin.
This video doesn't talk about hitting because it's a video about pitching. 😂
Making the stadium a pressurized dome would fix the problem but it also would be outrageously expensive, not even a franchise as rich as the Dodgers would do something like that.
2:10 magnus effect is reduced as you increase altitude. Not increased. Imagine you were in vacuum. There would be no air to push the ball so there would be no magnus. The ball would have initial velocity and gravity only.
That's a voice made for literature.
They should set the rotation up to where only certain pitchers will be pitching at home and others will only be pitching away
I don’t know much about baseball in general but couldn’t the Rockies keep pitchers designated strictly for throwing at home and certain pitchers for only away games?
"you have jacob de grom now" Oh do we?
I think it being dry in Denver would actually lessen the effect of the high altitude.
great video
I’m not saying coors doesn’t have an effect but doubt changing team is a major reason for getting better stats I feel the pitching coaches are more impactful
Flat pitches and flyball carry, sure, those hurt. What's often overlooked is outfield acreage. More singles fall in, more singles stretch to doubles, more doubles stretch......
the 2018 era is lower than the 2009 era sitting at 4.33
I don’t know how they could do it, but the Rockies could have 2 sets of starting pitchers, 1 set specializing in throwing at Coors Field and another focused on pitching on the road.
If the Rockies ever want to be competitive, they will have to do something. I don’t know if maybe a dome would work to combat this or what, but they will never see success putting the most important part of baseball in the worst situation possible. Championships are won on Pitching I don’t care how good the offense is
DID YOU HAVE TO KEEP QUOTING TREVOR BAUER?!! This loathsome Toad needs to be completely forgotten, not quoted!
Daniel Bard re found himself though at Coors Field people seem to forget that.
Maybe the Rockies should try having a "home rotation" and an "away rotation." They'd probably have to have a lot of extra pitchers to avoid tiring them out in lengthy homestands and road trips, but what alternatives do they have?
Honestly not a bad concept but adding 5 more pitchers, means 5 less bench/bullpen spots so it would be tough. I think a controlled dome of some sort would be the only option if that would even work idk the science behind it
Being a good pitcher at Coors is different than being a good pitcher at sea level. I.E. Jeff Francis, Daniel Bard, German Marquez, Kyle Freeland and Ubaldo Jimenez
Ubaldo jimenez is the only guy I can remember that was a cy young candidate I believe it was 2010
post 2020 degrom doesn't mean much. Those 10 games a season he pitches aren't going to do much. He's arguably the best pitcher when he's healthy, he's just not been healthy. He's got the stat line to look like the best reliever though.
Great video! We need more women in sports, including here on CZcams!
I've been saying it for years, the Rockies need a road staff and a home staff. Pitchers that ONLY pitch at Coors and guys that only pitch on the road. It's the only way.
U then need 10 starters and only have 3 roster spots left. Not humanly possibly
@@zachfedyk4740 Cause what's been done the last 30 years clearly is working for the Rockies...Need to think outside the box. It can be done.
Its also why pitchers in Colorado have a bigger drop-off after they leave to another team
Rockies need pitching for just at home and some for away. Probably very expensive though.
Just had a terrible idea
Build an underground stadium for the Rockies ☠️
Nice vid
Ubaldo Jimenez was prolly the best rocky pitcher. Maybe freeland
I wonder if an indoor stadium would be any better for pitchers or if they’re just screwed regardless as long as there’s a team in Colorado.
Indoor stadiums wouldn't make any difference, unless they intentionally pressurized the stadium to bring it up to standard sea level pressure. However, that would be incredibly expensive and impractical.
@@nickmanville900 Coors already has humidifiers so it's really not that much of a stretch. The MLB just has to allow it at that point.
My brain is tingling
This video oversimplifies the issue but is true overall 😂
2:30 2018 👀
Ubaldo never won one? He had a pretty dominant I think like 5 year stretch
The heavy air
I think Nomo's No No will forever be the only No hitter to be thrown in that stadium
Isn’t Arizona kind of the same thing? Sure they have better results but don’t they have the same issue?
This seems like a relatively solvable issue if their ownership gave a shit; invest in developing a scientific strategy. If Bauer can dump his own money into scientists assisting with pitch mechanics and Orgs can hire chemists to create the best sticky substances for baseball, this owner can invest in doing the same but for combating the magnus effect. But they’ve made it very clear that they don’t give a shit and that they’re more than fine putting out a crappy product, to the detriment of their fans and fans of baseball in general. You could turn Coors into a fucking hitter’s nightmare if you wanted.
I threw a perfect inning at coors tho. Totally not against high schoolers
Hideo Nomo of the Brooklyn Dodgers 🎉😅
The league should raise the mound at Coors
A 6 man rotation would greatly improve their chances
Wait, Texas didn't have a Cy Young winner??