Hollow Knight is Not a Soulslike
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 05. 2024
- We have talked about Hollow Knight clones, but I also wanted to discuss what genre Hollow Knight belongs too, and why people are wrong in some ways. So join my on a journey to discover how boss fights and lore fit in, and how this metroidvania may have started its own sub genre.
0:00-1:37 Hollow Knight is not a Souls-like....Mabye
1:37-4:45 The shade soul mechanic question
4:45-6:34 Ever Reason why its not
6:34-8:52 Hollow Knights own sub genre
8:52-9:50 The truth about Ultrakill
Thumbnail art by MEBI / mebi96862134
Pokemon Remix: • Game Corner (Remix) - ...
#indie #indiegame #cuphead #hollowknight #art #crowsworn #boss #lore - Hry
Some People wanted a list of all the games I mentioned, so here you go!
Crowsworn tinyurl.com/yckpbjay
Nine Sols store.steampowered.com/app/1809540/Nine_Sols/
Biomorph store.steampowered.com/app/1430220/BIOMORPH/
Rune Fencer Illyia store.steampowered.com/app/1104600/Rune_Fencer_Illyia/
Biogun store.steampowered.com/app/1219240/BioGun/
Rebel Transmute store.steampowered.com/app/1191660/Rebel_Transmute/
Nara Facing Fire store.steampowered.com/app/2087320/Nara_Facing_Fire/
Silent Santicado store.steampowered.com/app/1287930/Silent_Santicado/
Shyftrs store.steampowered.com/app/1899120/Shyftrs/
Scrabdackle store.steampowered.com/app/1578720/Scrabdackle/
Exil twitter.com/MysticClockwork
this is only 10% of all the games coming out somewhat inspired by hollow knight
thank u bro
A soulslike is when you die in a game, and the more you die the soulslikier it is
Until you beat hollow knight on Steel soul so it's no longer a soulslike😌
Steel Soul and Godmaster mode just turn it into Schrodinger's Soulslike.
Nope. You're getting Souls confused with Spelunky.
Rain World is the ultimate soulslike then?
@@waaaaaaah I think Celeste is the soulsiest game I’ve ever played
I think the one thing this video is missing is that its actually dark souls that resembles a metroidvania in a lot of ways
soulvania
I've been saying this!!
It's quite literally the same formula but in 3d, with some minor changes (keys and upgrades are separate objects), and the 1st DS is the best example of this, with all the world being interconnected one way or the other in such a thoughtful way that permits skipping things if you know the ways
Aaaah, I love this game
Vin w man the whole video was him saying hollow knight is NOT like dark souls and as someone who has played the game I can say that it isn’t hollow knight is a metroidvania with dark themes
Does it though ? I never played Metroid itself nor Castlevania but I played a few "Metroidvania" such as hollow knight and I always though the main feature of a Metroivania was the road block you can only overcome by getting new abilities and backtracking in an interconnected world. And you know.. that it's a platformer. If it's true that Dark soul only have an interconnected world, it's almost never needed to backtrack (if you play in the right order that is. And even if you didn't, it's minor backtracking). Even after finding the keys for the various locked doors. There is no ability related blockage except if you count locked door (but lock door are in almost every adventure game ever. It's not Metroidvania related).
If the only thing they share is an interconnected world then it's pretty slim to say it resemble a metroidvania.
Except its not like Dark Souls because it has 0 RPG mechanics or builds a key feature of a Souls game.
The shade system, as well as the bloodstain system, are based on when you die in Minecraft and have to get your stuff. Both games can therefore be considered Mine-likes
best explanation yet, video is void
@@PogobroHornet is void confirmed
@@The_Apex_Of_Predators hornet is alex confirmed
God damn they're both officially minecraft-likes now.
I think when people refer to hollow knight as a souls like they don’t mean the game play is like a dark souls game, but more that the atmosphere and interactions with npcs is like dark souls. Like most of hollow knight’s and dark souls quest lines are completely optional. The stories are also very similar.
Atmosphere of games is simillar because they are from the same actual ganre called gothic.
Npcs are also a lot like Zelda 2 and Castlevania npcs
Story has some simillarities but the moral and the message are completly opposite
@@goldenhorse4823 does dark souls or hollow knight really have a moral to the story?
@@applejacks175 Emm yes? That is kinda the point of every story.
Dark souls is about accepting the fact time has to move on and you have to change or you will end up misserable and stuck in the past.
Hollow Knight has bit less clear moral but litlle there is seems to be about attoning for sins of your predecesors and hope for the future
@@goldenhorse4823 there’s not really a focus on moral’s though
@@applejacks175 Moral of the story is a synonim for the message of the story. And even if you took most literally you could it would still counts since Dark Souls and Hollow knight teaches you how to act in life.
Hollow knight surely isn’t a soulslike, but playing it feels similar to playing a souls. What most people don’t understand is that it’s only the accidental result of some elements being featured in both games
This reminds me of people saying that the bosses in Kirby and the forgotten land are just like elden ring bosses, Which I find funny considering how easy Kirby games are. The only major similarity is that you have a dodge roll. I guess people made that comparison, since the games came out very close to each other.
bruh... those are just 3d kirby bosses where you dodge instead of float above/ under attacks. I grew up on amazing mirror on the gameboy. xD
Let’s not forget about a certain individual that complained that the secret final boss was like Dark Souls.
@@kirby65422 I'm actually curious who said that.
@@somethin7020 DarkSydePhil
While that's wrong, it actually ends up a testament to how poorly defined souls-like is as a genre, because a game that has almost nothing in common with dark souls shares like a half of it's defining features. Dodge roll, bosses that test reaction and learning of patterns, some doors needing keys/switches etc. Meanwhile the game itself is so different to dark souls no one in their right mind would say they are the same genre
The thing you're forgetting is that Metroid is actually a soulslike
Oh, right wow I can’t believe I missed that
so is super mario bros
i think it's a bit of a logical fallacy to take the individual similarities apart when it's their number and omnipresence that make people compare the two games.
I wouldn't describe Hollow knight as a Souls-like but it does gives a lot of similar emotions to the player, which is what art is all about. It's also an easy shortcut to recommend hollow knight to dark souls players and vice versa. In that sense it's way more appropriate to use the term "Souls-like" for Hollow Knight than for Cuphead or Jedi: Fallen Order imo
I mean like I said for me there are only 2 "souls-like" elements out of so many, so even together it doesnt count, but thats just my opinion obviously its not the only or even correct one
@@Pogobro enemies respawn every time u save and that’s the only point u can change your character
@@Pogobro theres a skill in learning when to heal between enemy attacks, great difficulty, story is scattered across various sources, the players equipment is gathered across the world allowing them to create their own build (though dark souls uses the leveling system a bit more in that regard), fighting bosses will usually involve mostly doging attacks and then waiting for openings instead of just spamming out attacks (more true for the harder bosses in hollow knight). To me the biggest difference is hollow knight doesnt have a leveling system like dark souls does since all upgrades in hollow knight need to be earned.
Hollow knight is a lot like dark souls in my book. The first time i played hollow knight I gave up after an hour and deleted it. Two years later after completing dark souls for the first time I picked Hollow Knight and now I wasn't so afraid of dying. I feel Dark souls took a lot from the OG 2D metroid games, and hollow knight did the same. They are bound to be similar.
@@Pogobro there are way more than two lmao
0:30 - As someone who hasn't gotten past the first 4 maps, seeing you display the whole map just made me realize "wtf was I doing for 4months"😢😂
nice to have some hollow knight content
i think the main source of the fallacy is just from the two games both having gothic themes. beyond that, there’s not much to tie the two games together.
Which is some harder bs. Like do they think Dark souls invented the style of gothic archicteture. Casltevania is right there
@@goldenhorse4823 It's not just the architecture, it's the ideological themes as well. Dark Souls and Hollow Knight both feature old, powerful, *grand* kingdoms and empires, once ruled by beings who were as gods to the common folk, now brought low by a super-natural disease whose causes are poorly understood or combated. Both games feature nameless, unimportant protagonists who rise beyond their insignificant origins to become true monsters, slaying all that stands before them and taking the strength of their enemies for their own. They also share a minimalistic style of storytelling, with themes of mystery and exploration, ] a brutal, unforgiving playstyle with minimal handholding, and feature the forces of light and darkness being locked in unending combat.
Taken all together, and it's not hard to see why people might make the comparison, though I agree that the term Souls-borne is used far too freely nowadays, and probably doesn't apply to Hollow Knight.
@@goldenhorse4823 but did you know that gothic architecture is a souls like?
dont belive me just look at the architecture and souls games. They look so much alike
Fr people just believe that Dark Souls invented the concept of difficulty
I'd say its cause the human build regains sanity points when categorizing things. If you pick up the autistic skill at the beginning of the game u gain even more sanity and an attack buff when putting things into folders and tags
Actually Hollow Knight is a “Paperlike” because the badge system is kind of like the one in Paper Mario.
didnt even consider that damn
I personally would never call hollowknight a soulslike but to me, the world and vibes feels very simmilar and the shared mechanics between the games makes it feels very "soulsy".
Well kinda a give since both games are horror gothic.
I'd say they have a soulsborne vibe rather than being a soulslike
The world/setting kinda, there are a lot of areas that feels like it's inspired by the same setting as Dark Souls (city of tears, white palace, crossroads) and the way the story is told is also not 100% straight forward. Though HK also has visuals and areas that strongly detract from the chalked-out atmosphere of dark souls (greenpath, hive, mist canyon, crystal peak, etc) and the story and npc dialogue is far more legible than any dark souls game (it doesn't rely on item descriptions thank god).
Gameplay-wise the only shared mechanic they have is the shade/bloodstain system and that was also done by MINECRAFT. It's a metroidvania through and through.
I used to hear about people saying hollow knight is like a 2d dark souls but after playing salt and sanctuary and hollow knight that's just not the truth.
The game could be inspired and influenced by it but hollow knight is definitely it's own game. It leans much more towards the metroidvania style than it does the dark souls style, and there are definitely games you could go to if you want the dark souls feeling in a 2D game. The problem with comparing everything to dark souls is it makes finding more genuine experiences closely related to dark souls tough.
agreed 100%
Great video!
What I really like about Hollow Knight is it non-linear approach to Metroidvenia, which is unfortunately too rare for a genre that one of it's biggest selling point is exploration (Looking at you, Axiom Verge)!
I have axiom verge because I got it for free on the Epic Games store, should I play it?
@@erpillar Game is fine.
The main problem I had with it is that every time you get a new upgrade - there is only one true path that opens to you. But, unless you are using a walkthrough, you gonna spend a lot of time exploring and reaching a lot of dead-ends, which required upgrades that you currently don't have, to find that one specific path that become accessible!
In short: it's linear, but not in a direct way.
(another problem worthy of mention is: Their “unique” way of fast traveling - a long horizontal lift)
@@adiveler This game seems prefect for me then, I'll play it
@@erpillar game is decent, boss fights are full disclosure just badly designed, and the combat is kind of pointless. But its got a banger soundtrack and atmosphere
Hollow knight is linear though? Like you only have to follow a certain path to get through the game (Get the vengeful spirit, get the dash, get mantis claw) etc in that order
Imma need a list of all those Metroidvania games you just mentioned are like hollow knight. Some of those looked really fun in a different way
SAME
@@teacupanimates pinned a comment with them all :)
@@Pogobro thanks
The whole souls-like genre was a stupid idea in the first place. No one can actually decide if a game is a souls-like unless it's just a blatant ripoff, unlike metroidvania having actually clear game structure
There are some characteristics that someone could argue are specific,or much more common,to Souls like games.Examples are: a marked increase in difficulty compared to other,similar games, a mysterious world mostly explored through character conversations and item descriptions, death being rather common and robbing you of a resource that is vital for purchases and upgrades, leaving a residue of yourself on death that you can interact with to reclaim your resources,a refillable consumable that restores health etc.
Hollow Knight checks out all those things,while Metroid doesn't.
However, it also works the other way around,with Souls like games having characteristics that were originally mostly found in metroidvanias,like opening shortcuts,bonfires acting like save points and verticality used more extensively compared to a linear world. In my opinion,both genres share a lot of themes so a game could easily be both,as is the case with Hollow Knight.
Metroidvania doesn't have clear game structure either.
@@aureateseigneur5317 you collect power ups that let you clear different locks to progress. This is a defining feature almost no other genre has, and its pretty clear the game is a metroidvania when you see it. Souls-like on the other hand, doesn't really have that. What defines souls-like as a genre? Difficulty? A move that gives invincibility frames? Locked doors that need a switch or a key to open? An interconnected world? These are all things basically any other game can have, and if a game only has a few of these features very common across the industry, then it doesn't make it a certain genre, and if it has all of those, by that point it's just a dark souls clone
@@NoirKirbi Actually tons of games revolve around collecting powerups to clear different locks to progress. What defines a Metroidvania? RPG mechanics? Loot? An open world? Locked doors? Lots of games across multiple genres have this. Like you literally just described a Zelda game in the loosest of terms.
"Souls-Likes" are just Open World 3D RPGs. That's all they are. "Metroidvanias" are just open world 2D Adventure games.
Nothing defines Souls-Like as a genre because it isnt a genre. Im literally arguing neither of these terms are actual genres. Souls-Like isnt a genre. Metroidvania isnt a genre. Its a portmanteau of two specific games people use to extremely loosly describe a shit load of games that are almost nothing like those two games.
@@aureateseigneur5317 The fact that souls likes are a flawed thing to make into a genre is the thing im arguing for, but i still believe metroidvanias are defined and unique enough to be a genre.
No, basic locks and keys don't make for a metroidvania. It's unique abilities and unique obstacles built around them that serve as such, not just basic keys and locks which are common, and there are very few games that have this exact power up and lock system that are not straight up metroidvanias, zelda is more of an exception. Also, metroidvanias are about the opposite of traditional RPGs, most of them never even use numbers, same with open world games, they are also basically the opposite of a metroidvania. Game structure where you collect power ups and clear obstacles is unique enough for a game to be called a metroidvania. While it is true that it's less defined than something like a first person shooter or a rogue-like/lite, it's also hard NOT to call a game like hollow knight or any metroid a metroidvania, because they are distinct enough from others to get that sort of separation.
Like, give 3 examples of a franchise or game that has the metroid power up system that is not considered a metroidvania, because from the top of my mind the only one that really comes up is zelda
Holy batman we are almost at 300 likes
Great video dude. I thought it came from a youtuber with like a million subs. Imagine my surprise. Keep up the quality.
@@thekingofracoons thanks! always trying to improve :)
I think there is a recursive aspect to how you approach the game... You rest at a bench, you go out with limited healing, you face some challenges and then a boss. You'll probably do it over and over until you're able to avoid most damage. This central loop is similar, and I guess that's why people call HK a soulslikey game.
Not really.
That's what you do in Shantae, is Shantae a soulslike?
You go to a save point, you have limited heals, you fight the boss, die, go back to the save point and repeat until you have the pattern down. That's not a soulslike, that's just normal gameplay loop for platformers.
@@BlackSabbath628 ye but shantae is 10 times easier to be fair
@@BlackSabbath628 Is Shantae particularly hard? I consider this loop the "soulslike" loop when it satisfies two conditions: mistakes are heavily punished, so there is incentive to playing the section perfectly, and you risk losing progress if you die. Also, it helps if the resting points are somewhat spaced out, which they are in HK. I really think of Hollow Knight as a game more in the soulslike vein than most metroidvanias. It reminds me of Bloodborne in some ways.
I guess almost every metroid game is a souls like then! You could throw in many other indie metroidvanias too. Things like la-mulana, environnemental station alpha...
@@radiobe4179 You do not have to play any section leading up to a boss in hollow knight perfectly lol.
I'm always very specific: Hollow Knight is essentially a fantasy take on Metroid. There's very little -vania to it.
Bro you wont believe this
Pokemon is now a souls like 🤯
Idk, honestly the video seems to be arguing that the Soulslike genre isn't real, or that a game has to be nearly identical to DS/use it as the only form of inspiration to qualify as Soulslike, both of which are assumptions I wouldn't agree with. Instead, I think we should use a more standard, less limiting definition of the genre.
Typically, I've seen Soulslikes defined as:
-Having high levels of dexterity-based difficulty and punishing boss battles (often with laborious run backs) the goal being player improvement through expected, repeated deaths
-An emphasis on environmental storytelling superseding dialogue or narrative storytelling
-A dark fantasy/medieval/gothic setting
-Checkpoints that heal the player, function as warp points, and function as a location to level up/equip permanent upgrades
-A mechanic that allows players to recover lost assets if they can make it back to the location in the world they died.
-An interconnected, metroidvania-like world
-An emphasis on multiple playthroughs to fully experience the game
-Multiple endings based on player performance/choices
-Some form of PvP that allows players to appear in/leave messages in other players' game world
-RPG elements such as stats and equipment customization
If we accept that a game can be a Soulslike without having to copy every single aspect from this list, we can see that Hollow Knight hits 7/10 of these criteria, making it pretty self-evidently a Soulslike. I think you'd have a much better time arguing that calling Cuphead a Soulslike is a cop out, because unlike Hollow Knight it hits almost none of these criteria outside of being difficult.
what have you mentioned was there in the industry and even some of them in the real life before even Miyashit born and got out from his father balls
just say that you can't see no difference because you are a fanBOI
Interesting video. My problem with it is the very first assumption - that Soulslike should have its categorization derived from features in Dark Souls. While that certainly was true for the first games inspired by it, it simply isn't healthy for the development of a genre. Just like Roguelike games doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy of Rogue so should Soulslikes not have to be for Dark Souls. Genres need to evolve with what is best for the genre not necessarily the root game. Now certainly there are features that are pretty non-negotiable as with Roguelike, but the name really should just be treated as "the name for that genre" and not be hung up on the root game that much, because it will harm the development of the genre if we are - this has happened to many genres in the past that took quite a while to shake the strict association with the root game. Certainly a discussion should be had of what the core & secondary features are, but that's a different point.
Ok but you have to accept that the definition of a soulslike should not be expanded to “game that is hard.”
All roguelikes are still like rogue in that when you die/fail you lose ALL progress and start from the very beginning. Some roguelikes bent the rule a bit by only making you lose *some* progress but it’s not so great a difference that it makes the game unrecognizable as a roguelike. All games in that genre share a core gameplay mechanic that they were designed around.
What’s the core gameplay mechanic that Hollow Knight, Dark Souls, and Cuphead all share that they were designed around.
@@yeahkeen2905 Never said that, I literally said there are non-negotiable features and there should be a discussion about what those are but that it's a different point from this video.
@@yeahkeen2905 well if we exclude cuphead from that list we have punishable deaths, focus on learning a bosses patterns other you will be stomped, finding items/equipment around the world that the player can customise their loadout with, and theres also a decent thing about timing your healing properly which some games dont have. On top of that both have a big story that is given by snippets or lore from various sources and also have dark themes.
@@alexgraham4196 punishable deaths exist in any game that is hard, learning boss patterns is something you do in any game that is hard, finding items that you customize your load out with is something that exists in like 80% of all games. Are these seriously your comparisons? Do you think that Cuphead doesn’t punish deaths, require you learn boss patterns, or have you find/buy items to customize your load out?
@@dondashall if it’s a different point from the video then there’s not much point in making it as a response to the video. The video is about whether Hollow Knight should be considered a soulslike.
I just started playing Hollow Knight and fairly early on I kept thinking "This feels so much like a 2D platformer version of Dark Souls". Benches feel like Bonfires, NPCs you find in the world and go back to the hub area, Currency lost on death that you can recover, free form exploration, little initial direction with the story that is slowly told you to via environment, NPC, and item descriptions that you reconstruct yourself. A focus on Boss battles and the part where you are sent to kill specific bosses to unlock the end. Exploring a dead kingdom past its glory days whose inhabitants are affected by a condition (curse vs infection). Hell even Cloth feels similar to Seigmeyer. The whole vibe feels very similar, like Dark Souls is Hollow Knight's past life.
Benches are just save rooms, it exists in all metroidvania before dark souls and hollow knight, the difference is that instead a S marking in the map, it's a bench, NPCs going to the Hub area isn't also exclusive to souls games, "free exploration" and initial direction with story tha is slowly told you via environment is basically super metroid, the only true souls mechanic is the currency lost and recover.
I'd say Hollow Knight is more of a hollow-like rather than souls like and dark souls is more like souls-like rather than hollow-like.
the only thing greater than your wisdom is your content mr Bee
@@Pogobro which is non exixtant, so that means my wisdom is non existant 😥👍
Saying Hollow Knight is a Soulslike is like saying Dark Souls is a "Berserklike" or God of War a "DMClike".
What he is missing is that it all do this together makes it resemble a should like, there were many times plying through elden ring that my brain connecting to hollow knight because they have a similar atmosphere, combat (with the heavy focus on dodging and timing, and that heavy emphasis on “you will die but over and over and over”. I’m a fan of dark souls and hollow knight and i like them for similar reasons, a punishing game with epic fights in a dreary, decrepit, weird and magical medieval world.
Yeah this video is mehhhh
this is nothing like elden ring though what?
@@Pogobro beside the obvious bug world,2d vs 3d world, and lack of rpg elements they have a lot of similarities and are very similar feeling in vibe and fighting style. They are not the same but have a large overlap of features we can’t just act like don’t exist.
@@TheFlashHawk Fighting sytles? If you mean combat then no. Hollow Knight in combat is fast and reponsive with much more movement and with totally different healing and spell systems.
Dark souls is slow and weighty with much more build veriety.
Bosses from Hollow Knigt have much less in common with Dark Souls but with Castlevania and other older games with bosses like Galion being an omage to Death from Castlevania aria of Sorrow and Grimm to Dracula,
No eyes as refference to Medusa heads, Ummu as Metroid from Metroid. Bosses also attack differently with lower wind up animations and often use their bodies to hit you since unlike dark souls their body is a hurtbox. Closest to a dark souls boss you would get would be Hollow Knight and pure vessel, False Knight, Meaybe watcher knights and nailmasters while you have bosses like Radiance, Grimm, Marmu, Galliot, Dung defender, nosk and basicaly everyone else that fight nothing like a Dark souls boss
Visualy you could say they are kinda simillar at places but most gothic medival games look simillar and the atmosphere you mention is not from Dark Souls but Angel's Egg.
Hollow Knight at best gives a nod or two to Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1
@@TheFlashHawk “besides the entire aesthetic of both games and the literal core genre that Dark Souls is and Hollow Knight isn’t, Hollow Knight and Dark Souls are actually very similar”
Also the combat in Hollow Knight and Dark Souls is nothing alike.
...I like the Shade mechanic, what's your issue with it?
it doesnt really add anything gameplay wise (lore wise it is important) and in a game about exploring it forces people to backtrack to where they died before they can try a different path
I been having this problem with rogue likes, games can take specific elements from the genre and make something that feels like for example The binding of Isaac but isn't rogue like. With soulslike game is the same, is like there's a spectrum of elements that makes you say "that's like darksouls".
So yeah, the game feels soulslike-ish, the atmosphere, the dialogue, the way the story is conveyed.
Personally I call it a get-lost-vania.
The cuphead and enter to the gungeon comparisons has me confused though.
Also the culture around naming genres is kinda strange, like jazz fusion Vs jazz rock, same thing overall, but jazz fusion came before and nowadays it has a wider definition for all mixture of genres with jazz.
It's aesthetic kind of feels like a soulslike. That's for certain.
yes but dark souls asthetic is just 3d castlevania dark gothic, it didnt invent it
@@Pogobro Dark souls invented/revolutionized environmental Storytelling in fantasy games no other has and combine with its unique difficulty. Most soulslike games Inclusive Hollow Knight took Dark Souls as inspiration.
A quick correction: Hollow Knight didn‘t take Dark Souls as inspiration, though they are really similiar
@@deadmanplays2684 🤦
@@Pogobro so ur saying castlevania is a souls like? I'd agree with that
Dark souls and hollow knight will always be hand in hand for me personally. I started out with DS3 and had to put the game down because I kept getting stuck. It was only after coming back later and completing hollow knight that I was able to approach the game with the right mentality to get through it. YMMV
1:44 I'd guess, in an ample sense a souls-like is a game with punishing combat that places a lot of importance in a specific dodge roll mechanic. That is, for most attacks, you dodge roll in such a way that if the attack touches you while rolling you don't take any damage from it. That way, I wouldn't classify monster hunter, Risk of Rain 2 and sifu as souls-like but I would classify Dead Cells as one.
"this is the darksouls of genre discussion"
I think Jedi fallen order could be considered a souls because it has bonfires in the form of meditation points and flasks in the form of stim canisters and a parry system similar to sekiro but I still think it’s a 50/50 if it is or not
Gothy atmosphere, vague yet deep story, difficult for many, interconnected world, great bosses, and you have to go back to where you died to get your stuff. I understand where people are coming from, but I also think they're two entirely different beasts. People also say Dark Souls is a metroidvania, so who knows if anything means anything by now.
This is coming from someone who would put DS1 and Hollow Knight as my top two favorite games.
U forgot everything respawns and u can only change your character whenever you go to a checkpoint
Those last seconds broke me
Totally not putting this in watch later so I can go and look up and buy some of the games you mentioned part way through the video.
I pinned a comment with all the game names!
This means that The Last of Us is actually the same game as Hollow Knight because they both have infected enemies that act like zombies
i need a video on how ultrakill is a soulslike
its hard and theres a dodge/ bloodborne dash mechanic along with a healing system like rally
@@robrib2682 funny how the game that's inspired by doesn't even have souls in the name
@@robrib2682 i guess thats true, i kinda thought there'd be a bit more than that tho
When it comes to video game genre definitions you either can be expansive or narrow. FPS includes many, many games that all feel extremely different to play. Halo and Call of Duty are FPS's but do it in different ways. The benefits of this expansive definition is that you won't run into a situation similar to calling Cuphead a soulslike. I tend to prefer an expansive definition over a narrow definition because what matters isn't getting the exact definition but a vibe that narrow definitions don't offer. Most times I try to describe a game with a paragraph and not a simple word. Games are complex and no single word can describe a game accurately.
Silksong when
benches are like bonfires because they are the location you can maintain both your inventory and your health, the map is like dark souls not because aesthetic but because its interconnectivity like in ds1
the map works like any other metroidvania, maps in metroid vanias are interconnect, and it works different in dark souls, in Dark souls you don't need a new ability to reach a new area, usually you need to go to a area and open a shortcut to a previous area, in metroidvanias, hollow knight included, you need a new ability that now allows you to reach an area that was locked or unreachable before, like a double jump, ability to break a wall or the ground, teleport, eventually a shortcut can be open, but it's not how progression works, etc, the interconnectivity of a souls like and a metroidvania are opposite things. And the bench is basically a save point of any other metroidvania game, or even any other game that let you to save only on an specific place, that's not a souls mechanic.
@@felipeemanuel5790 not only did you completely ignore my point about WHY the bench is the same you only mentioned the save function but it serves more purpose than that but you also completely ignored the actual point of what the interconnectivity entails from dark souls to hollow knight it's not just that per area it's connected but the entire game is interwoven from beginning areas to later areas like a web almost while most metroidvanias are very linear in progress with lots of back tracking to areas not through shortcuts but actually reprogressing through an area but backwards so you can go to an area that was previously inaccessible while in hollow knight you can go anywhere from almost anywhere else in the map with little to no back tracking, like going from the fungal wastes to dirt mouth through idk I think you mentioned it at some point? Oh yeah shortcuts!
Soulslike is what game journalists use when they cannot think of an adjective to describe the game
No, judging from things like the comments section of this video and threads on reddit and 4chan, it's way more than just game "journalists" throwing the word at anything that's even somewhat hard and has a dark atmosphere.
I saw a review of Metroid Prime Remastered that mentioned the save rooms being "Soulslike". Nothing means anything anymore.
Depends on what you understand as “Soulslike”.
You play as voiceless character of no renown in a world on brink of ruin with the “good” god being dead. your goal is to save the the kingdom. There is a plague that causes people to go insane and become undead. Tragedy is one of the main themes. Although the main goal seems noble the main characters can be considered good or bad depending on the perspective. Every character quest is optional. After death you loose all your money (the comparison with Zelda is not to far off but it is closer to DS as in DS you use your “exp points” as money and the comparison with Minecraft is to far off because in MC you loose all of your items and exp and they may disappear with time or fire) and you can reclaim it back if you can get back to the place of your death without dying. The Boss fights and exploration are one of the most important things in the game.
So for me it is a “Soulslike” game but that doesn’t mean that HK is a cheap knockoff and it’s not unique or that it’s not beautiful, just that it is similar to another good game.)
Does anyone really call Cuphead a soulslike? I remember one journalist calling it like that back in 2017 and everyone repeating after him as a way to mock video game journalism, but that's it.
not anymore, but it wasnt just one journalist, it was a bunch of content creators, even Matpatt at one point
It would be nice if you added links to the games you showed. I couldn't figure out the name is the one you showed last and it looks really interesting!
damn thats my bad I thought I copied them to the description
Exil , not yet on steam. For me it's the topdown game at 8:12 that I can't find
@@Ovnidemon Pogobro pinned a message with all of the links to the games he showed there.
The one you're looking for is called Scrabdackle. It's also easy to search up on Steam
(My job as a Scrab-fan has now been accomplished. And I shall vanish into the night once more...)
the true Redpill is that Dark Souls is a metroidvania, clearly it's a Caslevania Symphony clone
In the end they are all just Zelda likes.
Fr I hate it when people call every game a souls like. I’m a big fan of souls and for me it just shows that people don’t understand that dark souls is more than just difficulty and dodge roll. It completely cuts down everything that FromSoft made into: difficult game where you dodge and manage stamina. This is doing disservice both to the soulslike game and dark souls itself.
the four pale kings knights are literally the knights from dark souls whose names i forgot
also the way to get to the boss room lol
if you are talking about "finding the 3 things to open the path to the ending" thats a trope that has been in games since they were invented, dark souls did not invent nor even popularize it
@@Pogobro Of course not, but im not saying that either. Someone might take inspiration in Hollow Knight's shade system not knowing about Dark Soul's Retrieval. It's not about who made what first, it's about where the ideas are taken. I think Dark Souls is a pretty big inspiration for what Hollow Knight is
i haven't watched the video fully yet, but what i think is: calling HK souls-like is like calling a puzzle game FPS shooter just because in two places in the game you need to use an old flintlock pistol to shoot a chandelier or something to open a passage. Like, it's just a small little mechanic (granted, very much essential to speedruns of the game, but 1 small mechanic nontheless) I'm, of course, referring to our shade that holds our geo.
I thought that Blasphemous resembles a souls like metro the most but now that I've played it i don't agree too much
What's the name of the game at 8:12 ? I hear sprang tackles but I can't find any game like that. (I would also like to suggest that you add the name of the game in the description or in subtitles. I lost 15 minute looking for shyftrs because of the weird name)
thats scrabdackle sorry haha, added a list of games to the top comment
I think the reason people find it similar to Dark Souls is having to go to where you died to get a currency back, as well as the lore being defined but cryptic. If I remember, the devs worked on the art and gameplay first, and then invented the lore around that, rather than the other way around.
You almost got me on the Ultrakill part
I can't find the game shifters. Could you give me more information about it?
I remember i accidentally cheesed the lost kin fight while using defender's crest and glowing womb lol
Isn't Dark Souls Monster Hunter's-like?
You forgot to mention Ender Lilies when you mentioned games like Hollow Knight
I thought that it was a "souls like" because of the possibility of losing all your geo on death and that's it.
6:14 Damn dude you didn't have to murder the unskilled
Souls like Metroidvania and rogue lite/like are really just misused way too often.
does that one part in fungal wastes near leg eater count as a poison swamp? because poison swamps are a requirement of a souls game
“Dark souls” Literally just means “Nightmarishly hard”
It literally doesn't
Man i didn't expect to watch a HK video with Pizza Tower music on it. Good stuff.
just wait till my next video, literally pizza tower with hollow knight music lol
The game provides a little of a challenge.
“ITS A SOULS LIKE GAME!”
I know that the last part about ultrakill is probably a joke but if it isn't I'm mailing you a bisexual lobster in a suitcase
Im interested
@@Pogobro it will be there in 2-17 business days, prepare thyself (I have also packaged a pocket minos prime in there)
@@erpillar
THY END IS NOW
@@VoidBornHuman PREPARE THYSELF
Every time i've used the soulslike to describe Hk is when i wanted to talk about the map being conected in a "similar way" to DS, but i kinda realise the term souls like is being used in a really wide range and only to compare one or two of the mechanics of the game, for example when people say cuphead is soulslike usually is because of the difficulty and iconic bosses, i can agree in the bosses but not in the difficulty since cuphead has options of difficulty.
What pisses me off the most is when people call hollow knight souls clone and say it's bad because it's not so much like dark souls, dude it's not even supposed to be a souls like don't treat it like one, it doesn't have rpg system or 5 thousand unbalanced builds because it doesn't need to
I thought devs had some inspirations from the first dark souls but knowing that only one of them played bloodborne I don't think that was the case. Although as a big dark souls fan, I do think that hollow knight perfectly catches the feeling of first dark souls and only the first one. Always discovering something new, going from bench to bench, opening shortcuts, making builds(although at the end it's always quickslash, strength, mark of pride/shaman stone and fillers), deep obscure lore and the battle mechanic (for some reason) remind me of my playthrough of dark souls
I think soulslike term is a nothing burger right now and it should really die out since what made dark souls such a good game are million different reasons that were well made, from lore to gameplay. When people use it, you can't tell what specific part of dark souls' features it has. Maybe it's the difficulty, maybe it's deep lore, maybe its one single NPC that just snuck a cheeky reference or the guy never played dark souls and just wanted to throw that in. It means nothing, LITERALLY
on a side note, I just noticed that if we switch names dark souls and hollow knight, it would fitting for both games lol
Souls-like as a subgenre is just way too loose and vague. It entirely consists of features and mechanics that aren't unqiue in the slightest
I think that we must compare the gameplay first, and plot/lore similarities should go only after we labeled the game soluls-like to check if it is a full souls-clone.
First, the infamous save and respawn system. This is the main feature of souls games which are all about dying a lot but getting things done. It could be divided to three parts: bonfires, estus flasks and bloodstains.
1) Bonfire checkpoints have two key details. First, they don't actually save your progress, at least, not all of it: if you collect an item or beat a boss and die, they will remain collected and beaten. Though I'm not familiar with a lot checkpoint-based save systems and having to backtrack after any significant action can be too obviously annoying (but there are games which require this). Second, bonfires restore your character upon saving, but respawn all common enemies. Some checkpoints don't restore, others don't respawn enemies, but in Dark Souls if you decide to backtrack and heal, you have to start the area all over except for the aforementioned permanent things and unless you do it, no enemy would respawn.
2) Estus flasks are consumables, usually healing, which are restored for free, but only upon visiting a bonfire-checkpoint. This way the game chains you to them even more since you have a limit on how much you can do before respawning all the enemies. Of course there can be variations like them being a usual consumable and bonfire only refilling the chararacter's inventory, like blood vials and bullets in Bloodborne or spirit emblems in Sekiro, but let's not talk about that (because it's bad).
3) Bloodstains are punishment for not trying the same thing over and over, since you lose something valuable where you die and can't just go somewhere else to grind and return stronger. Or you can, but at best you're going to lose the money you earned before that death if you die again, and at worst you will lose something completely irretrievable without collecting the stain, like mana cap in Hollow Knight.
So now about combat. It can vary, it varies even in FromSoftware's games despite their love for copying themselves, but since souls-like is about dying a lot, it must also fit that idea. A souls-like combat would never be about gloriously and awesomely defeating hordes of enemies like in God of War or Devil May Cry. It will never allow face-tanking and button-mashing. It should not be won by some trickery or numbers. Souls-like games aim for making you memorize every single move of every single enemy which requires, you're right, dying over and over.
What of these can be said about Hollow Knight (everything, but some will be wrong)? It definetely has bonfire checkpoints and bloodstain in one of its worst forms. But it doesn't have estus flasks. And its combat is surely about learning attacks by dying to them, but I'm not sure if there should be something more specific than that formula.
let me say the biggest argument: if you go to steam and read the game labels it says souls like xd
A souls like is a game with a door saying : "does not open from this side"
The same thing has been happening with the term roguelike used to label any game with permadeath for as long as I can remember when even a pretty primitive game like Rogue is so much deeper. May as well call any shooter a CoD like or any fantasy adventure game Skyrim like at this point.
Soulslike is just a pretty unhelpful term in general. It really limits creativity and puts people off playing games that they would enjoy.
100%
when the journalist can't pass the tutorial level, it's souls like
"third worst stars movie-" opinion automatically dismissed
you said playing lords of the fallen feels like playing darksouls and thats why its a souls like but it actully feels like playing darksouls2 sotfs but everything was covered in honey, weighed as much of a feather but took the same streangth to use or swing as a 1000lb weight on the end of a stick
lmao I didnt want to get that specific but we were ALL thinking that
@@Pogobro good just wanted to be specific
It's because you lose all your money and you have to go back and pick it up again.
Is that background castle from dead cells?
good eye
For me term "soulslike" describe games that put priority on fight mechanics - to win boss fights you cant rely on luck or RNG - only on your own skill. You need to understand fight mechanics in order to win boss fights. You need to understand specific fight in order to win. You cant just challenge boss and win without preparation or choosing tactic. Bosses like NKG or Radiance are really hard but at the same time fair and beating them require to skillfully utilize most fight mechanics implemented in game.
At the same time I would argue that games like cuphead are not soulslike cause they rely more on the skill then utilizing fight mechanics.
Epilepsy warning for 4:03
I used to call it a soulslike because i didn't know what metroidvania's were
Your points are valid but I still believe it can be considered souls like. Cause while stuff like just being difficult, having a dark/Sombrr ambiance, convoluted story narrative and/or depressing/epic music doesn't necessarily make a game a dark souls like- Having a combination of all of these does.
"Not every game that's hard is a souls like" true and that point goes for all of the key dark souls traits. But you gotta look to all the games traits as a whole not individually. Hollow Knight has way too many similar traits to not be considered a souls like AND a Metroid Vania. Cause at the end of the day- Being souls like or meteoidvania doesn't mean you have to be a literal carbon copy of these games. HK is a hybrid so it fits both categories.
Good video tho!
The only thing about HK that is soulslike is on death you lose your Geo and your magic is halved until get Shade back.
Best take I've heard about this, great vid, got my sub and like
thanks :) any feedback critique is welcome, still learning how to make better content lol
machine you much embrace the dark souls
Them be fighting words at the end
so ultrakill me then
@@Pogobro gladly
Full discloser, I consider myself a metroidvania fan, not a soulslike fan. I don't even like most soulslikes. Plus, genres exist to sell games... not for actual game scholars to debate the influence of games on each other. And yeah, it's a double edged sword that sometimes help says, sometimes hurt sales because you could associate them with a game that you dislike. Also mad respect to you, I agree with a lot of things you said too, just not the full picture.
But I think Hollow Knight should count as a soulslike. It would be one of the only ones I do like. Here's my humble opinion on why I disagree with you.
You didn't present a solid standard. It's not a tangible standard to say a souls like is merely whatever reminds me of dark souls. You need actual parameters like: RPG, Mele Combat, Soul-Based Economy and upgrading, Punishing Death systems, Open World, in a post-apocalyptic, grim medieval setting, with a focus on really tough enemies and boss fights. Now, with that definition, the circle of things that would fit would shrink massively! Which other genre do you know of that has SO MANY parameters? Genres usually take 2-3 parameters from the games they are based on. When you were listing Hollow Knight similar games, you even dropped a topped down view on us for god sakes! So you have a selective standard!
My point is, Hollow Knight fits the bill in like half the things that define a souls like. Plus are you really telling me Sekiro is not a souls like? Because if so, then yeah... your definition of a soulslike is really too strict. You're defining a carbon copy of souls games as the genre at that point...
because thats what a soulslike is tho, Salt and sanctuary is a carbon copy of dark souls, hence why its called a soulslike instead of belonging to any other genre. Same with lords of the fallen. Like if you wanted to say Hollow Knight has souls like elements, I would agree. But calling it a soulslike is just wrong when it has so many differences
@@Pogobro Mad respect to you dude for making the video, and for standing by your word. I guess the crux of our argument, is where you draw the line! Your line is at a carbon copy, my line is at having like 3-4 of the souls like elements. At the end of the day, my understanding is that all genres are a lot more feeling based than parameter based. Like Metroid and Castelvania don't feel exactly the same either, but we think they both belong to a mutual genre.
soulslike is when people find the game to be difficult, completely ignoring the existence of any dark souls mechanic or stuff related to it (?)
There's so many subgenre of genres that Hollow Knight can be considered a souls like metroidvania. Labels are sometimes subjective and shouldn't really be taken so seriously especially if there is the word "like" after.
"not every game is dark souls you just suck" - some guy idk lmao
What does souls like even mean?
At this point it is just a game having a roll dodge, dark atmosphere and death penatly
Dark Souls world is interconnected like a metroid game world, so is Hollow Knight world. You open shortcuts, collect keys and connect previously disconnected areas. Shade is the same mechanic as bloodstain. Healing didn't remind me of souls games, since you don't get your heals restoret at the bench. Lore is told obscurely just like Souls games tell their story.
The reason people compare Dark Souls to Hollow Knight is because both games are metroid likes with the same currency retrivel system
its a super mario-metal slug-megaman.
-Good video. 👍
- 2:10 okay someone didn't play in give me god of war mode lmao.
- at first glance the title of the video confused me because this game literally has the souls like tag in steam and is one of the first things you find if you go into the souls like category 😅
-I played both GoWs on give me god of war so not sure what that means
-steam tags are worthless, they literally have dead cells as a metroidvania
@@Pogobro if I remember correctly Dead Cells *is* technically a Metroidvania
@@VoidBornHuman nah, Dead Cells is a roguelike, it has very slight metroid inspirations, like upgrades, but its not a set map nor is there any backtracking, and exploration is randomised.
@@Pogobro ah shit yea now that i think about it you're right
Steam tags are set by users on steam. I wouldn’t go to them as a source.
My favorite game - Exanima - is commonly called QWOP Souls. I just dislike that anything tough or is medieval themed just has Soulslike slapped onto it.
I have a feeling that the people dont know what the word "souls-like" actually means... OR EVEN GIVING IT A PROPER MEANING!