Freedom From Spirituality
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- čas přidán 15. 02. 2023
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Frequent writing and video at robertsaltzman.substack.com
Depnding On No-Thing FB group:
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The Ten Thousand Things excerpts:
www.dr-robert.com/the-ten-tho...
Depending On No-Thing excerpts:
www.dr-robert.com/depending-o... - Zábava
Excellent pointers Robert. Great sound quality as well, your efforts paid off in the technical department as well. Thanks much!
Your talks are an oasis of intelligence, sincerity and common sense. Thank you!
That is a lovely message. Thanks.
I found myself over the years falling into dogmatic approaches because I started to lose trust in myself because of some experiences I've had in childhood and society programming. It's not all that easy to find your own view, when filled up by all the searching and supposed learning I've done. I find your stance in resonance with where I am at , thanks for the talks 🎉
I have a feeling that at the moment of true realization we will all wonder why we took this thing so damn seriously. Mr. Saltzman included.
Robert, I love these talks. Humble thanks.
I have only just seen this. I have been thinking along very similar lines. In my opinion this is the truth.
nice fire sight chat , this is better than interviews or meetings , right to the target 👌
Thank you dear Robert. I found myself listening without looking for answers or clues, without a need to gain “ something” from your words. It feels relaxing and intimate. Just like listening to a good friend.
You're very welcome, Slavka.
Very beneficial and relaxing chat. Love the outside viewing, and it was just fine as presented. Your photographs included were nice and interesting to see what you see these days. Thank you!
Many thanks, Carol.
I love the fireside chat with images. Thank you Robert. If you make another one, ... wonderful. If you never make another, ... wonderful. Be well.
Nice and succinct! Thanks
Big Thank you Robert. So in line with my experience. 🙏🏾♥️
Very enjoyable. Thank you Robert
Yes, this was very helpful. Thank you for making sense...
Thank you, Robert.
Sounding (and looking) great, Robert. 😊
Thank you, Niall. :)
Thanks Robert.
Thanks again and again Robert…..Before and After meeting you…. The vision has changed for ever
You are most welcome, Bárbara.
What a terrific talk, Robert and thank you for sharing it. I'm convinced that we humans mostly prefer fantasy to reality-be it religion/spirituality, political extremes, conspiracies to even more harmless pursuits of entertainment. It's rare to be aware of this, and exceedingly rare to awaken from these fantasies and be fully present in life.
Yes, Corey. I consider myself most fortunate to have found myself here beyond all explanations, "spiritual" or otherwise, and without the need for any.
@@RobertSaltzman The need for explanations, or seeking a kind certainty in the face of this mystery of existence is a natural impulse I think, but maybe finding too much comfort in the mostly bogus explanations is where we go astray. Or do you think it's mostly escapism?
The point of interest for me, Corey, is that we human animals seem to have sufficient intelligence to be self-aware, including awareness of the fact of death, which naturally raises existential questions. So we have the questions, but not sufficient intelligence to answer them. Some of us can live with that, but most of us rely on supposed "answers" that come from cultural traditions, etcetera. This includes so-called "nonduality," "God," and all the rest. For me, and for a few other people I know, those "answers" are pure fantasy. No one, as I see it, knows the first thing about what "myself" is or isn't, much less about destiny, choice, and all the rest. I feel so fortunate to have somehow gotten free of all beliefs. For me, jere now works just fine without all that bullshit.
@@RobertSaltzman I fully agree that the answers spirituality offer are all BS, as are many other capital-T truths we contrive. I would like to say that I'm "free" of all beliefs, or at least getting there. I just finished reading DONT and have found it very helpful in this process. Thank you.
Gracias Robert ...the feling that i get i to be totally honest with the expirience of my Life ...not acording to anyone else...is not easy but worthy to trait...Muchas.Gracias de Nuevo
No hay de que, Alvaro. Cuídate bien.
Superb. Save us from group think. There may be a path but that is not it no matter how brilliant and evolved the teachers may (or may not) be.
I resonated with this a lot, Robert. It was beautiful. I agree with almost everything you said, although I still don’t find the entire world of spirituality as bankrupt as you do, only certain versions of it, but that list keeps expanding. I would point out as I have before that nonduality is an umbrella term that includes widely divergent approaches including Chan (Zen), Taoism, and Advaita Vedanta to name a few. I think you’re really talking mostly about Advaita (folks like Rupert being the contemporary versions) and also folks like Jim Newman who are not Advaita and who are not talking about “everything is consciousness” but they are splitting in a different way by denying the person etc. But anyway, I really loved this talk. Thank you and I hope you will keep it up. 😎👍
To me, nonduality means no splitting. It means the sense that everything is an interdependent whole that can't be pulled apart. Taoism, Chan, indigenous cultures all have this sense of things, as I think you do, too. Nowadays, when people tell me they are into nonduality, I ask what they mean, because they might mean very different things.
Thanks, Joan. Good to hear from you. I appreciate the points you raised. This is a good opportunity to clarify my perspective on "spirituality" for you and others who may read this.
Clearly, some people who consider themselves "spiritual" want to engage with others not primarily to make money, but to share something they feel has helped them. I do not consider such people to be corrupt. I save that word for the profiteers in the business who dedicate themselves intentionally to increasing the flock of followers to whom they can then sell things: retreats, online courses, seats closer to the stage or other forms of special access, even figurines of themselves or jars of the sand they have walked on like Mooji. You and others have tried to tell me that there is something good about some of those people. I don't see it. They are hypnotists, not "teachers."
However, that does not let the sincere, noncorrupt teachers off the hook. From my perspective, many of them are deceiving their students unintentionally. As soon as one of these types utters the word “Truth,” he or she is lying. Beyond the obvious fact of being a species of animal life here on a small planet in a vast universe, we humans have no access, I say, to any “Truth” about who or what we are. Speculation and conjecture, yes, but I have no interest in that.
Very rarely, I come across someone who can discuss these matters without claiming to have the keys to the highway, and that is the one percent (or whatever percent) whose ideas are worth hearing because they presented with a humility that is both fitting and accurate as well as establishing a sense of equality, not hierarchy, between the speaker and the listener. You are someone like that.
Yes, “nonduality” includes various metaphysical points of view, not just one, and I am generalizing in a way that may leave out certain worthwhile ideas, but until lately, one did not often hear Zen Buddhists using that word, nor Taoists, nor any other serious thinkers. As I have documented, until the early 90s, that word was hardly used. Then, through intentional marketing, it became a shibboleth and attention-getter-a word that could make a “teacher” out of anyone who babbled it. I have been posting CZcams videos for years. Recently, I used the word “nonduality” in a title for the first time. That video got double the usual number of views, and triple the number of comments, many of which came from “experts” trying to correct my misunderstanding of the dogma which they said was “Truth.”
If the idea is that every molecule in the universe affects every other one (metaphorically, that the flapping of a butterfly wing in Africa could precipitate a hurricane in South America), OK. Even the most hard-nosed physicist would be open to that perspective, and I am too. But there is nothing “spiritual” about that idea. The so-called spirituality enters the picture when that view is felt to be encouraging or warm and fuzzy, as if learning it somehow relieved the tragic nature of our human lives that end most frequently in loss, suffering, illness, and death. When “nonduality” is used that way-as a stand-in for “God”-that’s just religion, for which I have no use at all. If you think it’s not just more religion, the zealotry of its believers argues otherwise.
The way I see this is simple. The possible nonduality of the universe has little to do with it. Even if a nondual universe were proven somehow, not just conjectured, or, on the other hand, shown conclusively to be an erroneous belief so that all things are not interdependently connected in some way, which is certainly possible regardless of what you or anyone else likes to believe, I, Robert, would be in precisely the same situation as I am now.
Jerry Katz (Mr. Nonduality) interviewed me years ago and asked me about nonduality. Here is what I said:
"Yes, Jerry, there is nonduality. There is also "not nonduality," and "both duality and nonduality," and "neither duality nor nonduality." At the heart of the matter, there is just what is, so-called nondual or not." I don't think Jerry liked that answer.
I find myself here without knowing what any of this is, including “myself.” To not know is, I say, the situation of all human beings, but most of us cannot stand the emptiness of that, so we fill it in with distractions and entertainment, including religion and so-called “spirituality,” which claims to have answers to ultimate existential questions, but doesn’t.
In the face of all that jabbering, I find myself here, without knowing anything “spiritual” about the human situation, without having any way of finding out, and without needing to know. That is what I mean by “awake:” a mind free of hope and so-called “faith,” free of other people’s “Truths,” and free of speculation and conjectures that cannot be put to the test.
For the benefit of those who read my comment, I just want to add that I’m not against people making a living as spiritual teachers. And I have a deep appreciation for SAND and the Waking Up app and Eckhart Tolle’s work and many other people and things that Robert dismisses. But he and I don't have to see everything the same way.
I do deeply appreciate Robert’s willingness to not know, to be fully present to the pain and vulnerability of life, to not indulge in escapism and magical thinking, and to see clearly the raw actuality of this moment-whether beautiful or ugly, scary or comforting, however it is. I appreciate his willingness to hang out in the cemetery, literally and metaphorically, and to be naked (metaphorically), free from the protective layers of belief. He has challenged me in ways I appreciate to see where I may be off the mark. We don’t agree with each other on everything, but we agree on a lot. I'm very glad he's here, doing what he does.
Enjoying the talk so far and grateful for this sharing, five minutes in. Have to say though, I almost prefer the audio on the other vids! 😅 It comes through a tiny bit choppy due to the mic switching on and off as you speak. Also a couple of the images interrupt the flow of the recording. Other than that, it's lovely. A very peaceful listen and a heartfelt, excellent conversation.
Metaphysics is the most general attempt to make sense of things.
-AW Moore
Hey Robert, I'm so happy to hear you have freedom from that type of existential fear. If I'm hearing you correctly, we have to be able to in some way stop trying to escape, and that happened for you..... "But how we arrange that wanting, you don't think we can"......so sounds like to me coming from this video is if it happens by some type of whatever (some people have called it Grace), it happens but if not, kind of stuck in the loop of trying to escape?
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.
Hi, Chris. This is a question that comes up often in one form or another. I said I would do another video if people liked this one. Apparently, they do, so I will strike again soon while the iron is hot. When I do, I will begin by replying to you specifically. Until then, be well.
🙏
I was happily surprised to hear you mention Zappfe. And how about that, ive visited to TS once years ago. Thanks for sharing.
I wonder how you’d handle “The Conspiracy Against the Human Race” by Ligotti, as well as Bakker’s “Neuropath”. Two books in that same dark realist vein. I found them disturbingly convincing. The latter one psychologically toxic in it’s neuroscientific message.
Hi. I had not heard of "Neuropath." Ligotti was influenced by "The Last Messiah." My own perspective is not as dark or pessimistic as either of Ligotti or Zapffe, but I do recognize the tragic sense of life that seemed to have gripped both of them deeply. Perhaps I have taken it a bit further than either of them. I feel neither optimistic nor pessimistic. What is, is, including, in my view, that we humans are animals, not gods-to-be.
Isn't your lose in taking pictures an escape?
Hello Robert , I am currently reading “Depending on no thing”.
would you say that you are simply an atheist ? In the sense that you don’t believe in a God, you don’t believe in life after death or in the soul, or in karma, etc…..
the only difference between you and a regular atheist , is that you try to live fully in the present moment.
please correct me if I am wrong.
I am not an atheist. I simply have no interest in any of those items you mentioned. None of them has any relevance at all to my being in the world, and if I imagined that one of them did--life after death, for example--since no one who is alive can possibly know anything about that, what is the basis for "believing" in it, anxiety reduction by means of self-deception, or you just like the idea, or the Bible says so, what?
@@RobertSaltzman thank you for your answer Robert. I understand you don’t want to be labeled as an atheist because it might be incorrect.
but that leaves me a bit in the dark. because when I read or listen to you, I have the impression that you are exactly that , an atheist.
I know quite a few of them in my family and they all say the same things as you do.
I really doubt that, William. Very few people talk like me, and certainly no atheists do.
It's not that I don't want to be labeled as an atheist; I am not an atheist. An atheist says there is no god, no life after death, etc. I am not saying that. I am saying that I have no interest in speculation that cannot be backed up factually. I have no beliefs about anything metaphysical and no need for such beliefs.
@@RobertSaltzman that’s a much clearer explanation! thank you
Yup, Emperor's new clothes - Emperor's new religion - Emperor's new philosophy, same old crap.