WHAT IS LIFE? #23 Tim Freke and Robert Saltzman
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2020
- Robert is a depth psychotherapist who had an interesting response to my previous episode in this series with Rupert Spira so I decided to connect. We discuss our mutual desire to be radically honest and explore our shared frustration with aspects of the 'spiritual’ world.
In that spirit, Robert asked me to include this message from him with this video: "At one point, I mentioned a Rupert Spira video in which I said that Rupert had intimidated a questioner with false logic. I did see that. I went on to say that Rupert had left someone standing a microphone crying. About that, I am not sure. I may have seen that happening on a different video featuring a different spiritual teacher and conflated the two videos. If so, my sincere apologies." ---Robert Saltzman
Robert Saltzman is a photographer and retired depth psychotherapist and the author of two books on the human experience of awakening, The Ten Thousand Things (2017) and Depending On No-Thing (2019). He lives in Todos Santos, Mexico with his wife, Catanya, three donkeys and a herd of cats.
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#timfreke #robertsaltzman #whatislife #ruperspira #philosophy #emergentspirituality #consciousness #evolutionofthesoul
T!M FREKE
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Two wonderful human beings! Before entering the hospital for throat cancer treatment in May this year, I was able to participate in a meditation seminar led by Tim Freke. The big love I encountered through his (and his wife’s) deft teaching helped power a huge awakening while undergoing treatment. And stumbling onto Robert Salzman’s The Ten Thousand Things during that time as well tremendously helped to put life (I’m Alive!) into perspective. I love these two beings.
I love you too Scott ♥️
Thank you, Scott. Sending love your way.
I am so glad someone is challenging the Non duality industry. You saved me a lot of time. Honesty is so important.
I'm so grateful to Robert, he snapped me out of my 20 year non duality hypnosis, something there woke me out of my trance and realized I was following some bullshit jargon
Wonderful discussion. Taking a position is fine, but being tentative about it, and open to changing your mind is what turns juice into wine. When I am not paying attention I feel like I make choices, but when I pay attention, I have the strongest feeling that I am not doing any choosing at all. It's just happening. The willingness to submit to truth above all else was well expressed my Meister Eckhart: "Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep the truth and let God go." ~ Meister Eckhart
Yes!
A beautiful discussion. With heartfelt resonance and honesty. Thank you for sharing.
Two genuine people sharing some kick ass clarity. Move away Netflix. Thank you so much for getting together and doing this. Bring it on any time. Much Love :)
Beautiful conversation of two wise and humble men. Both are able to put in words what I feel too. Thank you so much. I love you Robert and Tim
Thanks Tim And Robert, loved the open conversation..
My favorite conversation of yours, Tim. Well done. I love Robert. I was most engaged during the bit about agency/doership
Learning is a sign of growth, a sign of life. If we can’t observe growth, a change in environment is necessary.
Really loved your conversation. Thanks for sharing💜
@15:18 - So much is heartfelt and cannot be explained in words. There are things that are well beyond words.
(smiles)
It is striking that for all the wisdom spoken by so very many in the "non-dual" community, there is a glaring lack of simple understanding that is wonderfully common.
Namely, that what IS, cannot be entirely captured into a rigid saying of words, teachings or logical concepts.
And any who stand upon one series of logical concepts, or one interpreted set of teachings, may indeed be "correct" from their point of view, and may most definitely be pointing to the truth...
But they are not standing upon the WHOLE truth, and neither is the angle from which they point o the truth from, the only angle that is pointing to the truth.
So much wisdom.
Yet in spite of this abundance of wisdom, look at how many are set into rigid castes that do not allow them to see or accept the other angles pointing to the same truth.
Not a judgement of criticism, rather, I find it quite wonderful lol
Its like one in Mexico insisting that the USA is due north, while another one in Canada, insists the USA is due south.
And in spite of them both being correct, they debate.
With each one insisting that the other is wrong, while they themselves are right, all the while, both miss the glaringly obvious point.
Both are right, but only from their own point of view.
It is refreshing to see the "middle ground", that Tim speaks from.
Though it seems he is forced to adopt the "Non-absolute" position more often than not, such seems to be a function of balance, rather than a refusal of the absolute.
(Exhales deeply in contentment)
This current climate is WAY funner and more interesting than the older paradigm of a small number of gurus pointing to the absolute, from the absolute.
And I can say this, with one foot in the absolute, and the other in the relative.
Because the absolute no longer entirely consumes "my" point of view, as it did for a time.
And the "I" that has appeared again, no longer views itself as a cancer that must destroyed.
Rather, it is a gift, a wonderful amazement.
For the infinite absolute point of view cannot comprehend relative egos.
Such is non existent to the absolute.
And the relative ego cannot comprehend the absolute.
For it only knows differences, opposites and grades of distinction in linear time.
Yet combine the 2 points of view into a WHOLE point of view... and every point of view can be seen as valid.
Even still, I will argue against rigid, "This is the only way it is" points of views, even though I understand them lol
Tim Freke!
You excite the spiritual nerd in me
(Laughing)
I hear nonduality speakers constantly say words cannot capture reality. I don't like to overemphasize misinterpretations.
well this should be an exciting and insightful conversation - diving right in! You guys made this happen pretty quick after your FB encounter. So awesome!
Whatever is responsible for growth is valuable. No need to move away from this foundation.
Wonderful! Thank you!
I think it was at the 1 hour 14 minute point that Tim called Robert “Rupert” 😂
1:10:42 I think Robert's simply saying that we don't choose our thoughts. Our thoughts simply arise as a response to stimuli, therefore there is no I that can make choices. Choices are made by the brain as a reaction to the moment and the "experiencer" within the body instantly takes credit for the action that was taken. We don't have interests; interests have us.
I like that
@22.44 - Excellent point, Tim.
I loved listening to this conversation. Thank you to Tim and Robert for sharing their experience. Julian
Yes, i love that about you also Tim...you are open minded! yes!
It’s so refreshing to hear from people who didn’t throw out the common sense baby with the dualistic bath water! For those nondualists who insist they know nothing and that time and cause and effect are illusions, I wish I could do a little experiment with them. I’d like to stand in their kitchen with a carton of eggs and say let’s make a bet. If I drop an egg on your floor and it breaks, then you clean it up. If anything else happens, I’ll deal with the fallout. How many do you think would take me up on my bet?
That's a good one! But don't forget "there is no doer" so who will do the egg dropping and who will clean it up? 🤣🤣🤣
@@dibelgelo that’s another one that drives me nuts. Buddhists have been talking about anatta for a couple thousand years. Nondualists say there’s no one here to do anything, and suddenly everyone becomes completely confused. They could explain about the “organism” or bodymind without an ego or sense of self, but I suspect they prefer keeping their followers ignorant and handing over cash in order to continue to bask in the confusion.
@@hansenmarc Exactly. I have a feeling that original teachings were lost in translation or just misunderstood and misinterpreted as they came to the West, where "spirituality" became trendy and profitable.
There is no money to be made from awakened people, they will not buy books or attend retreats.
It’s illogical to refuse to consider Love is measureable and therefore reflects ultimate meaning.
Lovely
yeah i noticed a subtle defensiveness from Rupert; it's because he wants to protect his brand; it's his meal ticket to the life he leads; im sure its a wonderful life.
And on a more light-hearted note, I thought you had brought Ronnie James Dio RIP back from the dead to have a good old chinwag with him ;)
😀
Ah knew there was something about that guy!!!!! I had Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules and one of his solo albums many, many years ago! Great discussion - I believe Tim has a perspective that has a forward path.........it actually surprises me that more aren't standing up and saying similar stuff. They will in time, I believe. Spiritual speakers generally sound like, "we're the best gang in the play ground" and "I'm alright, Jack" and "science is stupid". This isn't love and it isn't wisdom.
Too funny 😂👍
Unconscious choices that we make are our subconscious running us. As we are aware or conscious of what we do or think' we cease to have life 'happening' to us. In the gap between a thought and action lies our power. When we are conscious we harness that gap and cease to be run by our subconscious conditioning. We are then doing without actually being doers.It is a mixture of stillness and movement. In India we call it Shiva and Shakthi metaphorically.
A gem
I realized everyone's perception is unique to themselves. I can't change another's interpretation of their reality.
If I read your interesting comment, and realised the truth of what you’re saying for the first time in my life - you would have changed my interpretation of reality. 🙃
Hey Tim I happened to just now stumble upon this video and I’m about half way through and I’m thoroughly impressed. I’ve now subscribed to your channel and will check more out as soon as I finish this video. I want to ask you, what are your thoughts on Nisargadatta Maharaj? Thanks a lot and looking forward to getting to know your work more.
Side note, I live in Perú and work at an Ayahuasca retreat center. I really have grown tired of much of the spiritual games people seem to play (have to include myself of course). It seems to me that the Ayahuasca experience greatly benefits from some form of professional psychotherapy or analysis as an adjunct to the ceremonies.
Nisargadatta was a huge influence on me 30 years ago. Now I no longer agree with much he says, but I am grateful for the role he played in my evolution. (I hear you about the Ayahuasca).
@@TimFreke1 I have noticed this more than once, Tim, you are kind of, sort of evasive when it really starts to matter. If you are where you tell us that you are, that you have discovered new insights and all that, you should be able to be more articulate and less vague. So tell us, Tim, where don't you agree with Nisargadattah. Where was he wrong? Be specific and precise. Avoid the vagueness.
@@GeertMeertens If you want specifics ideas please do me the honour of reading my books such as Soul Story which lay out my ideas in detail. Also I am not claiming to be anything special. I am exploring ideas I find attractive and rejecting ideas I no longer find work for me. And I have been exploring spiritual experience all my life so unsurprisingly I have some experiences that inform my life. With regards to Nisargadatta ... I would say the biggest disagreement is that I don't see the individual self as an illusion to be dissipated. Also he doesn't have an evolutionary perspective.
@1:02:45 - time only exists as a human construct/marker. There is only ever the present but we use time to chart our progress for human development or relational purposes. We can frame it according to how we choose to interpret states.
Agreement and disagreement work together!!
@38:00 if a ship’s material is replaced 100% is it the same ship? Yes Only in form, I would still recognise it as that ship.
Same cannot be said for a human our bodies change 100% as does form. Even I cannot recognise a picture of myself as a 2 year old as me only in the fact I was told it’s me and I have a picture
Was Robert referring to Tim's conversation with Rupert Sheldrake or Spira during this video? Thanks.
Rupert Spira
Tim talks we are the universe as if it’s more than just the gas & rocks it is. The universe has a possible purpose! What does that mean? Is implying the material universe has some kind of mind or is it God.
Tim, can you please point me to your book that explains the idea of a "trans-scientific spirituality which transcends and includes sciences"?
Check out latest book Soul Story. I don't mention the term in this book but it is what I am exploring there. I am working on a new project using the term 'trans-scientific' right now ... literally as I write this. 😀 Subscribe to my channel to hear when it arrives (or better still my newsletter) timfreke.com
The Tao of Triggers Broom
Do you think God/Universe is infinite? Tom Campbell says it's finite.
I don't equate God with the universe as synonyms Logan. I'd say the potentiality of Being has no limits (which could be said to be infinite in that sense). I would see the universe as the limiting conditioning of that potentiality.
@@TimFreke1 Oh ok, thanks, Tim.. I heard Tom Campbell say that the LCS (Larger Consciousness System) was finite. I was surprised because the common term used in spirituality and religion to describe the evolving God/source/consciousness is infinite.
Truly a great and inspiring conversation! 🙏❤️
I'm glad you got to see this, Joan.
Well, as you know, I was invited to be a part of it, but I bowed out, mainly because of Internet connectivity problems I was having, but also in part because I felt the two of you would have a more powerful conversation without a third person in the mix, and now I know my intuition about that was correct. I thought the two of you were great together, and as always with both of you, I was left with much to reflect on. I suppose it goes without saying, but I loved the honesty, the openness, and the love that was so palpable from and between and within you both. A truly beautiful, thought-provoking (in the best sense), and inspiring conversation. I love you both. ❤️❤️🙏🙏👏👍😎
Direct observation vs philosophy
solipsism wins
@@Jesse-fk3xc How so?
@@keithoyoung34 its all thats verifiable
First twenty, twenty-five minutes... very good. After that, useless, convoluted, unnecessary speculation that many "spiritual" and "non-scientific" people (including me) do on the Internet 24/7 365 days a year. A golden opportunity wasted in my view. In my view, Mr. Tim Freke seems to be not at all comfortable with "not knowing". This discomfort with "not-knowing" is common for about 90% of the "spiritual" people.
Maybe you should find out more before commenting my friend. Take a look at my book The Mystery Experience. I'll past the first paragraph of another of my books below for you.
“Life is a Mystery. A Mystery so awesome that we insulate ourselves from its intensity. To numb our fear of the unknown we desensitize ourselves to the miracle of living. We perpetuate the nonchalant lie that we know who we are and what life is. Yet behind this preposterous bluff the Mystery remains unchanging, waiting for us to remember to wonder. It is waiting in a shaft of sunlight, in the thought of death, in the intoxication of new love, in the joy of childbirth or the shock of loss. One minute we are going about our business as if life were nothing special and the next we are face to face with profound, unfathomable, breathtaking Mystery. This is both the origin and consummation of the spiritual quest.”
Excerpt From: Tim Freke & Peter Gandy. “Jesus and the Lost Goddess”. Apple Books.
@@TimFreke1 Pretty, lofty words, but a lot of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. More can be interpreted by how people actually energetically carry themselves.
There are no choices or Free Will except as an illusion
Determined Sapolsky
from what you’re saying, your opinion has no value because it was determined - but I choose to write this reply so my opinion has value because it is not determined by lower levels of causality 😎
@@TimFreke1 not my opinion! Its paraphrasing the book Determined by Sapolsky. I suggest you read.
@@BubbleGendut my comment is simply an argument against what you’re saying with this quote, my friend. And it’s an argument you can’t choose to counter because you have no choice.
Everything is physical!! Including emptiness. How emptiness expresses itself is in temporary material form, the mystery is we believe we created it, enjoy the ride or don’t.
I love Robert's work.
It’s a bit of a myth that non-doership, and not-knowing are “Robert’s work” This stuff is as old as the hills.
Tim, at about 50 min you claim that we can take a stab at consciousness IS but actually if you pay attention you simply explain what is does and a theory about its purpose. But you didn't actually try to explain what it is. To do so you would inevitably get to the question of WHY. Why would there need to be the Phenomenon of experiencing. why is there the experience of subjectivity.
I suggest we need to understand the whole of existence as inherently relational (as in relational physics). So systems are interacting as subjects and objects from the atoms all the way up the levels of emergence to living lifeforms.
The 'hard problem' of where subjectivity comes from doesn't arise with this view. And conscious experience can be understood as a very emergent level of sub/obj relationship. Systems read each other and interact on all levels. On the biological level that has become HD processing ... what we are experiencing right now.
Why? Because when the senses emerge there is so much information being taken in, most of which doesn't matter much ... so systems evolve the capacity to focus on what matters and process that in higher definition. And that's what you are doing now focusing on reading these words.
@@TimFreke1ok yeah, that’s is a very fascinating thought and way of seeing it. Still though, it’s just incredible that it exists and somehow the crazy thing is that no explanation can pinpoint the immensity of the fact that something exists. It’s like you can continue asking the question until eternity, what are the subject - object relations, like what they really are. It’s so incredible. Anyway, thank you so much for your answer and your fascinating thoughts and contemplations. Will surely listen to more of you talks :) 🙏🏻
And it’s so fascinating how our relations to eachother, as in this conversation as well, and the relation to all matter, the way you hold a cup etc, is an emergent reality of the relatiion of two atoms or two cells. But still though, this might just be an apparent reality, a visualization of the true reality which has connection as a fundamental quality, and that somehow spawns this whole play. Hmm, very fascinating. Again thanks
@@jojjeboy no I don’t think that problem arises if the universe is understood as intrinsically relational because the experience of consciousness is seen as a emergent development of what intrinsically exists
It does require that we start thinking in traditional materials terms though which could be hard to do at first
The idealist solution of conscious being fundamental is a solution to the materialist problem which from this perspective doesn’t exist
@@TimFreke1 ok, But even if I do understand the universe as intrinsically relational, which I do btw. I don’t see the connection between relations and the subjective experience. For example all of nature is relational to itself all the time, but do we assume that every plant has a subjective experience? Kind of hard to grasp this over chat unfortunately..