Do You Need a Blow Off Valve?
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Blow off valves and turbochargers have gone hand in hand for almost as long as the turbocharger has been in existence.
There are various theories about the requirements for the blow-off valve, including the ability to reduce the thrust load on the turbocharger and prevent expensive failures, and releasing the pressurised inlet charge air when the throttle is closed to help reduce lag or improve spool when the driver opens the throttle.
In this webinar, we’ll do some investigation of our own and analyse what the data shows us using our Mazda Rx-7 fitted with a Borg Warner EFR8474.
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0:00 - Introduction
0:50 - How the data was gathered
01:10 - RX7 overview
03:55 - SR86 overview
06:55 - What does the blow-off valve do?
13:35 - Ball bearing turbos
14:45 - Applications without blow-off valves
15:30 - Data gathering demo
19:05 - Testing issues/limitations
21:15 - Reviewing the data - RX7
26:10 - Reviewing the data - SR86
29:45 - Conclusions
32:05 - Questions
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#highperformanceacademy #learntotune #freelesson #goldlesson #bov #blowoffvalve #efr #borgwarner #fd3s #rx7 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
25:59 I did this on one of my own cars once; fitted a boost gauge watching boost pressure at the compressor cover. There were absolutely no signs of spikes in boost pressure (at least not that the gauge was able to pick up). Pressure just fell away rapidly towards atmospheric. I was running 1.5 bar (20psi).
BTW I've been running the same Kinugawa journal bearing turbo, at 20psi, without a BOV, for over a decade now!
I ran no blow off valve for 3 years and my mother got cancer as a result. Do not recommend.
13:00 Yeah, this is exactly what I try to point out to people when I hear this issue come up. If you have a ball bearing turbo, it's likely not going to matter. But in my case running 28 lbs of boost on a journal bearing turbo, it's best to reduce those axial forces to keep it running longer. No it's not gonna blow up your motor, just might reduce the lifespan of the turbo.
Ive had problems with blow off valves not working properly so we stopped running them and never had an issue with it thankfully. Amazing video by the way.
The best answer is that it depends haha. On low pressure systems (around 1bar) I think it's best to not have one. Especially if you have a cheap bov that leaks and it can cause you more problems with boost leaks. IMO not having BOV sounds the best. I haven't ran a bov for 5 years around 400hp on 16psi on a journal bearing turbo with no issues however my car is just for fun and not in anyway for competition. Like you mentioned Borg Warner puts them on the EFR so the engineers feel that it's important. Also for what it's worth jet engines use air bypass valves to get the n1 Turbine up to speed on low power levels. I think like you mentioned it's dependent on how serious the setup is and what pressure levels are present. Thanks for your videos ! I enjoy fact driven answers to questions like this. Cheers
am happy i watched this good to learn and have knowledge. Respect
🧠Get $25 USD off ANY HP Academy course with this coupon: CZcams25
Enroll now: hpcdmy.co/25offytc - Taz 👨🏻
Lots of good information, def need to watch again :)
I actually grew hate for BOV over the years and lots of the vehicles i had just used a bypass valve but on my high performance car currently in project status i specifically asked for a turbo capable of not using one and i leave it with the professionals (which are hard to find sometimes)
Great presentation!
Great video. I would say this is pretty much THE definitive answer to the BOV question on the web!
Maximum dose factor=no BOV
Bro can I just say, I have been following your journey for a good few years now and I have never appreciated it more right now. You may assume I am going through my own SR20DET build right now. The honest truth is that if I happened ONLY upon your latest, relevant videos, there would be so much that I would just not understand half of the things being mentioned, and I feel smart AF thanks to you guys. Props to you and your team.
We appreciate that and are stoked you've learnt so much from Andre and the teams content mate, that's why we're here and what we hope to do for you guys 😎 - Taz.
It seems to me that whenever there's a massively contentious debate on the internet the answer is that neither side is all that important and the differences are virtually nothing. Only reason I put a BOV on my project car is because it kept blowing the very janky charge pipes off!
Pretty much as per the video, if you're going to fit a BOV to your car, put it where it is convenient and don't over think it. From my experience there is nothing measurable in terms of performance between the two locations - Andre
Quite a few cars came OEM without a BOV in the 80's and early 90's. The GMC Syclone and Typhoon, Dodge Omni, and Starion/Conquest are first to come to mind
I really appreciate your videos and I apologize if you have already covered my question but I don't seem to be able to get an answer...why wouldn't we divert the compressor pressure (during throttle change to closing) to the exhaust manifold upstream of the compressor to alleviate the reduced pressure there and using a bypass valve in the exhaust that allows the turbo shaft to retain its speed and to return to generating power/boost when opening the throttle... or allowing the shaft to slow down without the pressure/vacuum effects on it in each chamber?
I'm a big fan! Love what you guys do.
Why do you think it is common on a 1jzgte to wear out the rear turbo quicker than the front turbo, when the blow off valve is attached and effectively only works on the rear turbo?
I'm thinking maybe having a blow off valve relieve pressure then gain pressure actually causes shock loading. Where as having no blow off valve, even though you get compressor surge, actually keeps pressure on the compressor wheel consistent, reducing shock loading?
So much misinformation out there on compressor surge! Thanks for mythbusting this.
are "they" implying we are needlesy adding heat soak if we don't run a BOV or if we do? 4:35 I was a bit confused where you were going with that Andre.
Hi, what about those models of turbocompressors that has that inlet outside the perimeter of the compressor? Do that prevent or even eliminate the need of blow off?
i have been wondering about this having ran a non blowoff journal bearing car for a few years now, lovely sounds, but i wiped out the right side of the car and upon disassembly i found a little oil in the bottom of my intercooler. Wondering if there is some oil "pumping" effect against the oil seals from getting on and off throttle as the thrust is going back and forth on and off throttle. Car never has smoked or used oil and the turbo is absolutely fine as far as i can tell.
I have a smart forfour brabus 4g15t as fitted to colt r's why does the brabus not run a bov while the colt does also heard fitting 1 to brabus will throw ecl?
Andre, you missed an important part of information regarding placement of the BOV.
the idea of placing it close to the throttle body is not due to pressure differential it is due to the direction of air flow.
the idea is because the air is already flowing towards the throttle body that by venting it their when the throttle closes keeps the air flowing in that same direction instead of fighting itself trying to go backwards towards the turbo.
people say it effects the response time/ lag of the turbo (not to be confused with boost threshold) when coming off and back on the throttle quickly.
I'm not so sure that holds perfectly true in the case that there's so much positive pressure instead of like a naturally aspirated engine where the pressure waves matter much more.
position doesn't matter in pressurised system as pressure is a constant throughout the system.
Therefore venting through flow, is irrelevant as it will release as a constant because of pressure regardless of flow
Yes!
I'm going to run about 10 lbs of boost what size blow off valve would be best for me turbo gt30 v6 3.5l engine
Can you guys please do a video about turbo over spin, i really cant think its a valid reason, that diconnecting boost pipes, will blow you turbk as it over spools?.
Pls make a video
I've always wanted to know!
Additionally. Seen plenty of 'Bro's with no BOV's have all sorts of issues popping off intercooler piping due to the pressure spikes on throttle close while they're trying to summon the pigeons...
Great Video Andre.
Can confirm I had this issue, but I changed to a much better clamp
You just made my day, they way You wrote it. :D
In my experience, this is usually due to
1) Using low quality couplers that aren't meant for boosted applications, like those marine-style couplers that one can cheaply buy at any hardware store. Even if they have a "4-ply construction" I've found them to be quite weak and when running even moderate boost levels they tend to break apart
2) intercooler piping not having an actual bead roll on the ends to help with the couples from sliding off
3)Improper or poor quality clamps used - No, worm gear clamps should never be used. At the very minimum at QUALITY T-Bolt clamp is the minimum and most cost effective. If you're investing money into a turbo kit, just go with V-band, or Wiggins hose clamps, or Vibrant's HD clamps. Yes they're more expensive... but you won't be blowing hoses trying to push 20+psi
Like you're spending a few grand on a turbo system.... don't cheap out unless you want to be on the side of the road all the time or losing money races.
@@rotor13 I use t bolt clamps. If you're popping those off at 20psi, the bead roll is inadequate or the clamps aren't done up tight enough
So many people not flaring their pipes correctly, if a clamp is tightened to 65mm ID on a 63mm OD pipe with 2mm of squished silicone with a 70mm flare behind it, there's no way that pipes coming off.
For me it would seem logical the turbo speed would be the same with and without a blow off valve since both the scenarios got a load on the turbo. With blow off valve the turbo is working to push more air through. And without a blowoff valve the turbo stalls and surges. The surges works against the turbo but the stall makes the turbo less affected by the air.
What would seems more logical for me would be to cut ignition and fuel then let the throttle body stay open to let the high pressure air drive the turbo and to be ready once throttle is engaged. (No lift to shift)
But i know that surges is not good for the bearing and the compressor wheel as the collapse of air from the surge could cause damage.
Hey Andre, to get the timeline marks on the bottom of the video you need to have a 0:00 for them to work properly.
Ahh thanks for pointing that out Ben, really appreciate it. I copied it straight from the HPA site without double checking those, fixed now 🤘 - Taz.
I ran my Honda years ago with no blow off valve at about 50 psi with no issues 🤷♂️
ball bearing turbo ?
Hot damn 50 psi. At that kind of pressure I'd expect charge pipes to blow off without a bov. Did you brace the pipes?
@@sLothiC both journal and ball bearing on that car
@@ABusFullaJewz vband on turbo intercooler and throttle body. 1 coupler on each side. Never blew off a pipe.
i wish i could have asked what is the proper procedure for setting the pre-load on an older style BOV that has a pre-load screw adjustment?
@@azza9575 I'm not sure if i know what surge sounds or looks like. right now the bov sounds like dolphins laughing😕
From what I tried if it has an anti surge compressor housing no bov isn't an issue. It doesn't even sound like you don't have one. If you don't have an anti surge comp housing it has a tendency to blow the charge pipes off.
An anti-surge compressor cover helps reduce surge but it doesn't entirely eliminate it.
My HKS ssqv bov lasted 13 years, the spring inside broke and was always open. Replaced it with a NGR Performance bov which is a Greddy clone. Its decent and sounds great. I like how its adjustable not like hks.
I think the bost spike in the race car example is due to the slow opening off the blow off. After all, the boost pressure have to exit the top off the blow of and the engine have to make vacum to open the valve, the pressure spike is quite instant, at least the "shock" peple talking about in the trotle body
The "statich" boost spike whit the blow off is a sum from factors oon how much air is being pumped, how much there is space for the air in the boost pipes, intercooler before the trotle body and how fast will the engine make vacum after the trotle is closed.
An interesting but maybe not so useful test wuld be to use different vacum lines with the blow off valve, if you use a small long line that does take long time to went and compare wit a short big gate vacum line.
Actually I think the only good reason to install the blow off valve as close to the trotle as possible is to get as short vacum line as possible to the valve
A mechanical BOV requires inlet manifold vacuum before it can open so the throttle has to close significantly before it can move, however you can see the BOV begins to open by the time the throttle position is at 60%, so well before it's fully closed. The valve also has inertia which means it can't open instantly. The sort of trend we've shown here would be typical of any mechanical BOV irrespective of its location. We did some testing years ago between ECU mounted MAP sensors which require a pretty long run of vacuum hose through the firewall, vs MAP sensors mounted to the inlet manifold and the difference was surprisingly negligible - Andre
Nah stutututu is life.
STUTUTUTUTUTUTU!!!🔥🐌
And then your compressor explodes. 😀
@@TML34 Almost 10 years on the same turbo and still going strong.
@@TML34 True compressor surge happens under boost, under load, at WOT in a place of the turbos compressor map where its documented to surge. This is what kills turbos.
This is why its VERY important to pick a turbo based on its compressor map and know how to read a compressor map
Not running a BOV/BPV/DV and then letting the compressor stall when the throttle is shut, does not damage the turbo at all. Many people have ran turbos without them for many race seasons, for many miles, for many years and as long as you maintain the car like normal with regular oil changes and such it barely does anything to the turbo. Things like Anti-lag and such are more harmful to a turbo in the long term
One quick question, what about BOV on intercoolers? Any pros or cons to consider?
As per the video, really the location is not going to have a measurable impact on performance so our advice is to fit it where it's most convenient and don't overthink it - Andre
@@hpa101 thank you sir for you explaination.
Another Problem with running no Blow Off valve, at least i Heard, is the compresser nut backing off from the shutter of the surge (source: Lademanufaktur in Germany)
Were VL dose pipe setups safe for the integrity of the engine/parts ?
I guess a dose pipe deletes the factory recirc valve? Engines don't care whether is a bov or not :) It makes no difference to the engine components.
@@Kj16V VL's don't have a factory valve, dose pipe is pretty much just a metal intake pipe to replace the rubber one.
Why us a BOV?
So you don't waffle the throttle blade.
This happened to a friend of mine's a couple of months ago.
I'd wager there's something else going on there if you've got a bent throttle blade. That usually comes about as a result of a significant backfire event or something similar - Andre
When ordering a new turbo from Owen Developments in the UK, I was told to remove the BOV that was just before the throttle body as the turbo would be built to motorsport specs with steel cage WRC ball bearings. I ran this first on my EJ25 at about 1.7bar circa 520bhp and now on a new 2.35 EJ22 and expect over 2 bar and closer to 580bhp. This engine has been built for 700bhp+ but will run with this turbo and then upgrade to a larger turbo with the same motorsport spec as I have had no issues. I would always have a turbo built for me than buying off the shelf, as can choose components and have it built to exactly the power levels and boost levels I am looking for.
The big miss here is doing this without a pre-throttle pressure sensor, which is a key point of data. Pressure surge can cause damage to your compressor wheels, so the answer to "Do You Need a Blow Off Valve" is always "Yes, for Safety". The other big miss is that turbo speed and turbo load are not a 1:1 comparison. As turbo speed changes across the pressure ratio the load on the turbine and the resulting back pressure changes substantially. A blow off valve substantially changes that loading to be beneficial for re-spooling once you get back on throttle. "Boost Response" is more than just the pressure. The more piping volume between the turbo and the throttle the more the mass air flow matters for your pressure reflections. Without a logoff valve the air flow just gets dead-headed and converted to random turbulent flow adding heat to your intake piping. For good boost response you want to keep that flow through your intercooler piping at a stable pressure and flow direction without turbulent pressure waves and reflections on transients, and that gets more important as that piping volume increases.
He says that he has a pre throttle pressure sensor.
@@waynes.2983 He specifically says he doesn't on the car he's testing, but goes to a different car for data on that with generic test data.
excellent video Andre and HPA team. it has already been said, but I'll co-sign the same, the biggest high performing cars from the greatest manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, Nissan etc. have used BOVs. i will continue to use them for the reasons you showed here and for the noises they make. i have a Blitz Super Sound that sounds like dolphins laughing. it's the best sound ever next to the turbo spooling💪
Porsche 962, 919 no BOV. Ferrari 126C, F40 LM no BOV. Nissan R90C, R35 GT500, GTR LM Nismo no BOV. SCG 007 no BOV. Toyota GR010, GT-One (TS020) no BOV.
The greatest manufactories don't use BOVs in their greatest race programs.
@@Thee_Snow_Wolf you said "race programs" what about their OEM/public road cars?
@@PANTYEATR1 That's a different kettle of fish entirely. Completely different set of requirements. To the OEMs it doesn't matter if the BOV is leaking, since it won't cost a championship.
BOVs (well recirculation valves really) in road cars reduce NVH to make the driving experience nicer. Also if using a cheaper journal bearing turbo without a 360 thrust bearing, adding a BOV is a form of insurance to ensure that said cheap journal bearing turbo will last 300k miles.
I can't prove this, but it was also said that BOVs help protect turbos from overspeeding, by slowing down the compressor wheel speed while off throttle. Although with the pretty negligible difference in HPA's turbo speed data, I wonder if this is down to the improvement in turbo technology meaning this is less of a factor.
But for an ultimate performance application a BOV seems to be just another thing that can go wrong and a pointless addition. A lot of what is considered absolutely necessary on a road car is immediately thrown anyway on racecars. Lots of racecars won't bother with stuff like water lines on a turbo (even turbos that have provision for it), since it's just extra stuff that isn't really needed.
what did you mean by saying borg warner is a bulgarian turbo
Relevant time stamp please. Not sure what you are referring to - Taz.
With alot of these turbocharger names or models how can you tell by the name the size of it.like 50mm or 62mm etc.i get confused, I'm sorry.
Not to mention I'm a supercharger guy anyway
Different companies use different naming schemes. Like garrett for instance with say a gtx4088, gtx is the model line, 40 is the frame size and 88 is the exducer size of the compressor wheel. Precision in the other hand with like a 7675 use a 76mm inducer on the compressor and 75mm turbine wheel. So when someone says they're running 80mm turbo for instance it's generally referring to the inducer of the compressor wheel.
@@scootbmx01 but again that helps slightly but it does what for power potential or boost pressure.would a larger inducer and smaller turbine wheel be better for lag or what.in your example.
i apologize for my ignorance
@@MLK_Sold_Black_america_out simple physics. More mass = more lag. Bigger turbos are more laggy, the way turbos have gotten so good is efficiency, that is (like your superchargers) being able to flow more air for a given size. Turbine housing size, turbine wheel size and compressor wheel all affect the lag of a turbo. But generally speaking, all other things considered equal when you gain in response you'll lose in top end. You can get say a gtx35 and gtx40 to make the same power (to a point) but the gtx35 at say 25psi might only take say 15 from the gtx40 to make the same power because the gtx40 can flow so much more for a given turbo speed. The trade off is the gtx35 will be faster to spool. Now the other thing is the more you compress air the more it heats up so the gtx40 would be more efficient
@@MLK_Sold_Black_america_out generally you size the turbine wheel and turbine housing size for your engine combination and then size the compressor side based on power goals.
@@MLK_Sold_Black_america_out Smaller turbine wheels on larger compressor's will result in better spool from that size turbo, but limit the maximum flow capability of the turbine side posing and restriction at high rpm when the engine is flowing the most amount of air. Also a larger compressor wheel will slow down the shaft speed meaning the turbo isnt spinning as fast to make the same boost, however this is an issue if the turbine wheel is small and spinning slowly and cant get the air out of the engine quick enough.
- Larger Compressor wheel is boost/psi potential and Larger Turbine wheel is less restriction/cost to make power.
I think Idealy you want a turbine wheel slightly larger than the compressor wheel meaning it's not posing a restriction and will let your top end thrive (PTE), then if you want more boost or power you just go a bigger turbo. BW EFR however is the opposite with large compressor wheels and small turbine wheels, they spool very fast and can make a lot of boost, but power is limited by the small turbine wheel making them fall over at the top end. I am running a BW EFR 9174 on a 3.4L, I make 300kw by 3000rpm, 650kw by 6000rpm, 665kw by 7600rpm but i fall off to 630kw by 8500rpm due to the turbine restriction I just spoke of. Larger cams and larger rear housing didnt help as much as i would have liked, so i've gone back to the smaller housing for the transient response.
Avoid the need for a BOV by :
A: running the throttle plate Pre turbo 🙃, like the old F1 cars or even a mid 80 Dodge 2.2. (But then you need a positive pressure oil seal....)
Or
B: Anti-lag (and this just destroys turbochargers...)
So... Just run a BOV. OEM's have done the research, so they wouldn't be putting them in (since they cost money) if they didn't have a functional purpose.
Jordan
OEM's know what is best for an OEM application, even then, arguably 😅
Agreeing with Andre or not, you can use them as a guideline, but not gospel once you start changing things so best to shy away from the OEM applications and instead look at motorsports applications - Taz.
The functional purpose is NVH. There is no need for a BOV. To quote spydertoph:
Here is some food for thought,
" Here's the thing: Pressure is irrelevant. It seems a lot of people don't understand HOW a turbo actually generates pressure.
The compressor wheel NEVER sees PRESSURE.
A turbo compressor is not just a spinning wheel, the compressor also has a diffuser volute/scroll as well. The wheel does NOT generate the pressure. The wheel imparts massive VELOCITY to the air which the diffuser scroll THEN turns into higher pressure as it slows that air back down again (Bernoulli).
Now reverse the process. A diffuser with air moving backwards across it becomes a nozzle with pressure on the inlet and velocity on the outlet. There is no pressure at the outlet, thus the compressor wheel NEVER sees pressure, only air velocity. That air simply pushes against the air coming off the wheel, causing airflow across the compressor to stagnate and some air to leak back past in the gap between the wheel and the housing.
Here are some MYTHS:
1. ZOMG! the compressor wheel spins backwards! That's bad for ur turbo hurr durr.
Reality- The turbine requires a steady flow of super-heated exhaust to drive the compressor. If it takes, say, 200hp worth of fuel (ENERGY) to do that, how is a stream of comparatively cool, fuel-less air going to have enough energy to stop, then reverse the direction of a wheel that's not even designed to harness energy in that direction? The ONLY thing that slows down the turbo is shutting off the turbine side. Or sticking your hand in. I recommend the former.
2. That ch-ch-ch sound is your turbo speeding up and slowing down!
Reality- That ch-ch-ch sound has nothing to do with the speed of the turbo. Seriously, think about this using what you learned in high school physics for a minute. If we've switched off the driving force for the turbo and it slows down, how is it going to magically speed back up again? It's not. In reality, the sound is related to the airflow equalizing across the compressor in both directions. The wheel is spinning with the energy of your engine's flywheel near redline. It really couldn't give two sh*its which direction less than a lb of air is moving across it.
3. I don't want to ruin my expensive BB turbo!
Reality- ball bearing turbos are even less affected by these conditions than journal bearing turbos are.
4. Garrett says I need a blowoff valve! They make turbos, so they should know!
Reality- Garrett is a business partner of TiAL. TiAL sells blowoff valves. Advice from someone telling you that you should buy something when they have a vested interest in selling you that thing should always be taken with a grain of salt.
5. Drag racers and Time attack cars use blowoff valves!
Reality- That's because they're not real race cars. REAL race cars don't use them. Champ cars, Turbo-era F1 cars, IMSA GTP cars, LeMans cars- None of them use blowoff valves. The Porsche 956 (which won LeMans several times) used a pair of K27 journal bearing turbos producing upwards of 700hp without blowoff valves. Why did they run without blowoff valves? Because keeping the induction system sealed was worth whole seconds per lap. Blowoff valves make the car slower.
6. Those cars didn't need to care about turbo damage because they were race cars and they changed out the turbos all the time!
Reality- 1 race at LeMans is equivalent to the abuse an average street turbo would take over the course of about 200,000 miles. Porsche and Mercedes have both won LeMans with turbo cars. Toyota, Nissan, and Porsche have all won the 24 Hours of Daytona with blowoff valve-less Turbo cars as well.
Seriously, if you can find a documented failure of a turbocharger that can be directly attributed to not running a blowoff valve, I would love to see it. In the 7 years I've been searching for such evidence, I've come up dry."
@@hunterhach7533 *drops mic *
That thrust bearing is 270 degrees, not 180...
Have you ever found that a fast acting big BOV close to the turbo causes the turbo to actually spin up too quickly and blow up ?
Do you mean overspin the turbo when coming back on the throttle because the BOV is still half open and therefore spins off its head to reach desired boost pressure? Or do you mean it needs to spin more than it would against boost pressure because it has to refill the pipes with air first? This shouldnt happen regardless of BOV placement. The same air pressure will be released from the chamber (compressor wheel to TB) during BOV operation, and the same air will need to be replenished at exactly the same speed regardless of BOV location.
I think it would be more a setup issue in terms of BOV spring pressure or vacuum line source location not being ideal for your setup. If the turbo spools up so quickly it exceeds its maximum rpm before the chamber is up to pressure either your piping is way too big or your turbo way too small, I couldnt see a turbo not filling up the pipework before reaching maximum rpm...? Unless you have a leak somewhere.
Dose or die
I look at you as my godfather man i love you
Sorry for all the missed birthdays! Cheers for the love 😎
BUT CHOOOCHOOOCHOOOCHOOOO
Each to their own but sounds so shit to me. Like something I would have wanted when I was 13.
Smaller turbo at higher boost definitely need a bov, larger turbo low boost can deal with no bov....
Why? Data?
@@denniswiese8886 because small turbos needs the bov sound to not be laughed at by the bigger turbos. Source: trust me dude 👍
What what is considered a small turbo??? Bc I got a 6262 lol
It's more so about the a/r (area ratio) and the restriction from that.. change from a 62 ar to a 1.06 and tell me how much later you soool
I got .83 ar
Because, tchu-tchu-tchu-tchu-tchu and retard the surge in high pressure set-up.
No, but yes, but actually no.
yeah nah, but nah yeah is the local scientific terminology - Taz.