Engine Break-In Myths Dispelled | Engine Break-In Tips And Tricks [GOLD WEBINAR]
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
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Correct break-in procedure can have a big impact on the performance of your freshly built engine. When it comes to the correct techniques and the ‘do’s and dont's’ however, there’s a lot of confusion and misinformation in the industry. In this webinar, we’ll discuss what we’re actually trying to achieve with this procedure and what we can do to get the best results every time.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Welcome
1:25 - Common myths
7:35 - What are we trying to achieve?
16:45 - Considerations
19:35 - Camshaft break in issues
25:05 - ZDDP
27:30 - HPA break in process
39:00 - Questions
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Due to the 2019/2020 global situation, we thought over the next few weeks we'd help keep you guys out there entertained and release some of these otherwise webinars to you for free to help pass the time.
If you're looking to learn how to break in an engine, how to perform engine break in for a race engine, what oil to use during engine break in and what might best be avoided, we hope this helps.
Want to watch the members-only webinar on Engine Build Considerations or Engine Failure Analysis along with over 230 other lessons on engine building, tuning, and wiring topics? Sign up here for only $19 USD a month, start and stop at any time (unlike your gym membership!):bit.ly/GoldMembershipHPA
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#highperformanceacademy #enginebuilding #enginebreakin #goldwebinar #enginebuilding101 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
![Piston Ring Gaps | How They DESTROY Your Engine [GOLD WEBINAR]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/y3nqpZF9wa0/mqdefault.jpg)
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Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy32
50% OFF your first engine building course. Enrol now: hpcdmy.co/offery32
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Welcome
1:25 - Common myths
7:35 - What are we trying to achieve?
16:45 - Considerations
19:35 - Camshaft break in issues
25:05 - ZDDP
27:30 - HPA break in process
39:00 - Questions
Wow what a world we live in. Being able to get a professional engine builder to give us a "how to " on fresh engine break-in with a few taps on your phone is priceless. Thank you so much Andre, much appreciated.
It wasn't priceless
Was to me.
@@jooba67 AYE.....but I spent thousands for those classes over the years. They are excellent.
@@bobbywalter5320 well how much did this guy charge you to watch his video? You may have fell victim to a scammer!
@@tkostang I have a membership at hpa. There is a price... A lot of stuff that is free now was behind a paywall. It's well done
Newzealander for beginners:
"Beer ring" = A mechanical element used allow rotational movement and reduce friction between two parts.
"Heed" = The upper part of an engine, bolted to the engine block. Usually houses the combustion chambers.
"In gin" = The mechanical powerplant of a vehicle.
"Beed in" = To wear mechanical parts together accurately through use.
:D
No you got it all wrong mate. A Beer Ring is the mark your Fosters can leaves on the coffee table from sweat because you couldn't bring yourself to take another sip of the nasty stuff. Heed - that's what my wife gives me. In gin - that's when you drank so much gin you can't walk straight. Beed in - That's what it's called when people catch beads at a Mardi Gras parade.
LOL. Thanx for the dictionary!
@@DivergentDroid Correct... 👌
🍻
you forgot “manurel oil” :)
I thought the beer ring was the mark that the Foster's leaves on your upper lip when you are guzzling it from a big mug🍺
I work at an OEM'er building big diesel engines. Every engine is tested for 15 minutes. 5 minutes of heating up, making sure all pressures are correct, nothing is leaking etc. Then after 5 minutes its full throttle all the way. Cold oil, somewhat warm coolant. The last few minutes are for cooling down. Those engines don't burn a drop of oil. Nothing even remotely in the manual about 'breaking in'.
Its full send from the factory and it works.
High load on rings at idle due to CR and no throttle plate
I do almost the same when I build with moly rings, 20 -50 miles in town, check for leaks, beat on it a bit and gtg, cycle 2 -3 times if iron rings.
My grandfather builds dirt track engines out of his garage for a lot of the guys running in the vintage class at the local dirt track. This is after he was building them for his own car and beating (badly) the guys that paid big money for local shops to build them only for them to blow up halfway through the race season. Needless to say for the first few races every year they are constantly accusing him of cheating and the tech guy is always making him tear the engine down there at the track for inspection.
I’m not sure the specs he builds them to but he assembles them. Starts them up, let’s them run for 15-20 min slowly running it up from idle to around 3500-4000 and back again. Just before he shuts it off gives it a few good redline whacks. Takes them off the stand puts them in the car and takes them to the track for qualifying.
One of his engines finishes top 3 every race (at the very least 10, usually 15 or more cars are in the class) and outside of the random rocker failure or other failure that can happen to any engine being raced (incorrect fueling, timing etc) his engines usually last the whole season. Then when torn down at the end of the season usually just get a mild refresh for security but they usually look like they could easily go another season. One of the guys there is still running one of his engines never rebuilt on his 3rd season and he’s still competitive.
Excellent.
The same is for motorcycles. I know of at least 1 manufacturer who puts every single brand new bike through a full dyno run before it leaves the factory.
We do the same thing for our Tugs at work running EMD's and Caterpillar 3516's, Fresh Rebuild- Top off fluids, Start the engines idle for 5 minutes then hook the engines up to 900 RPMs (for the EMD's) and 1600 for the Cats and let her sit for 10 minutes, Then bring it back down to an idle, Then we'll cast off and actually put a load on the engine and WOT on a push test for 2 hours.
@@human1513 yes, mv agusta !
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I’m a Chevrolet technician and I have replace dozens of pistons on many engines. After each replacement I take the car for a 5-10 mile drive with a few 10-15 second WOT pulls. I’ve never had one come back with any issues. So all I can say is SEND IT!
@@mikeeagle2653 nobody said anything about breaking in a piston… when you replace a piston do you do so without changing rings? Also… where are the bearings located on your pistons dude?
@@mikeeagle2653 what does "breaking in a bearing" look like? As explained in the video, the bearings don't break in. There's a film of oil between them and the rotating part be it the crank or rods. The bearings should never touch the crank or rods because of this.
@@mikeeagle2653 please don't break in any bearings and never tell this nonsense again!
warm it up to operating temps, check for leaks, top off coolant, full send. change the oil at 100 miles and cut the filter open and inspect. No brass, keep smashing the gas.
Reliable, accurate, information!
why that thumbnail? why???
I've always pre-primed the oil pump, did a first-start and made sure all pressures are good while it comes up to temp and the fans come on, shut it down, change the oil, and possibly do a retorque pass on certain fasteners... Then off to the dyno it goes. Build a base tune and flash it in, then start doing pulls and getting VE and fuel dialed in. Within 15 minutes, it's getting the BEANS 🤣 Get the tune dialed in, then fine-tune things like IAC, tip-in, and part throttle drivability... Then it comes off the rollers and onto pavement for a little tune refinement and collecting data. Do another oil change, check lash if it's a solid-roller, and start beating the snot out of it.
yeah +1 for pre priming oil pump
I remember a friend telling me he would lucky if he could get the guy to take it easy for a lap .That was in the late 80,s on a bike
Great up to date info.!
The same is for motorcycle manufacturers as told to me by factory techs, engineers and race team people.
In fact some motorcycle manufacturers put every bike through a dyno run before it ever leaves for a dealership.
In fact old style break-ins can damage a modern engine via for example glazing the rings and cylinders.
The materials used in engines today are much different than used in years gone by.
Even a Toyota dealer told me there is no break-in and mine runs perfectly after 5 years.
Yeah, I'm here because I bought my first new motorcycle, and I can't imagine having to go 600 miles under 4000 rpm, and 1200 under 6000, not exceeding 50mph. My brain tells me to trust the engineers, but my gut tells me that it probably isn't worth it and I should just ride.
I would like to thank you for actually explaining for everything. I feel like my stress about my first break in ever had dropped a lot now that I know what is going on for each step. So often when trying to learn how to rebuild this 289 and 65 Mustang I have just had to hope the grammar less sentence on a forum is what I need to do. Even these manuals I have skip over so much information. Thank you.
Way more info than most! Once again.
Thank you.
BUT. There is always one, or two.
What impresses me most, is your honesty. "no, I haven't used 'that'" or "no I haven't tried that"
INTEGRITY IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS.
ALONG WITH :Hard work. Knowledge. Experiance and..... and..... and.....
Thank you for sharing your experience, time, knowledge and, and, and... with us.
I learn every time! G. B. U.
Remember Where your gifts come from!
Thank you.
Thanks mate! Appreciate the support!
Yep, If you set the clearances correct, Do the Correct honing procedure aka Torque plate honing and or even better bringing the block up to temp while honing, use the correct rings and the correct cross hatch for the rings then in my experience my engines are all sealed up in about 15-20 minutes run time and we start making dyno pulls right after that initial run in, this guy is telling the truth 100%
I've watched videos on youtube of Pakistani dudes building engines with bricks and a welding stick.
All jokes aside, building an engine can be as complex as you want it to be for maximum performance and longevity. Of course all of those techniques you suggest be applied come with a cost that most enthusiasts would rather cut costs on.
I do feel like machine shops are starting to make it more of a standard though and part of the natural cost of building an engine.
This came out just in time for my build. Thanks for putting great info out there. Especially from a true engine builder and not just some CZcamsr.
Good video we appreciate your advice and time
Anyone wishing to understand more about the piston ring, cylinder liner and lubricant interface should read these academic papers. They may not tell you exactly how to run your particular unit in, as all unit specs will be different, but they will give you a better understanding of what is involved. These are pier reviewed by some of the worlds experts in the field of piston ring, cylinder liner coatings and lubricant specialists so they hold a lot more credence than many so called tuners word of mouth mutterings. Remember, these experts are the people contracted by, and who advise OEM's, Tier One Motorsport Organisations, and many others on how to build and use their recip units. Remember that any recip unit "running in" relies on many factors, such as ring coatings/materials, liner coatings/material, lubricant, temperature, cylinder pressure, texturing, static ring tension, bore out of roundness and others. As a thirty year veteran engine builder with countless hours of static dyno and chassis dyno running and as a researcher I can tell you that some of the greatest myths are fostered by some of the so called engine building/tuning specialists and should be taken with a pinch of salt. This subject is far more complex than you think.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1468087413519783
journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1350650111431028
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000055
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261919318161
asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/IDETC-CIE/proceedings-abstract/IDETC-CIE2011/54846/401/351819
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0954407016686249
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X18305474
www.jstor.org/stable/44724334?seq=1
www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/921453/
I have lot of respect for OEM engineers and they are the best in what they do and study various subjects to very great detail. As oem cars have to run reliably and cost effectively. An oem bearing expert might know a lot about bearings , but he may be layman when it comes to any other aspect of the car. Reputed after market tuners might be spreading a few misinformation out there and may not know the nth polynomial equation for bearing lubrication but he knows what works with his experience of building aftermarket cars. That is the requirement of the industry. The kind of power levels they churn out if it has to be done the OEM way with OEM reliability then every build will be more expensive than a Bugatti Veyron. Even if the ordinary engine builder is to read all the links you put out there he might be stupider than he started. Each industry has its requirements , I would rather you had some respect for the after market engine builders.
Thank for the references.
So what parts of this video do you agree and or disagree with?
Care to actually cite any of those mostly irrelevant and paywalled papers? Anyone who understands the subject knows PEER-reviewed papers are great, but most are not reproducible, and most quantitive and qualitive testing is never published when performed by OEMS. All the aftermarket gets is empirical data. Go try to sound smart somewhere else.
Great video, methodical. Had to let mine idle for 2 minutes to check for leaks and dial in the fuel pressure regulator, top up coolant etc before I go out on the road. Next start (after lockdown) will be on the way to the dyno 5 miles away and 1hr run in as suggested! Great video, thanks!
Thank you for all the information you put in this video, very helpful, keep you the great work 👍
It would be interesting to gather stats on repair costs and lifetimes of cars that were broken in vs. ones that were not - for example, demos.
Maybe engines failing to break in is not that common. If someone installed a rebuilt engine in a vehicle and went out driving on city streets immediately, with all the stops, accelerations, decelerations, and idling at stop lights and stop signs, the engine probably would break in properly.
The only way you could create a problem is driving at a sustained speed for a long period of time such that the rings heated up and scuffed the cylinder walls. With a cast iron engine and conventional oil, I think it would break in eventually no matter what you did as long as you did some varied speeds early in the break in cycle.
Nevertheless, I would follow the recommended break in protocols if I ever installed a rebuilt engine.
@@anonymike8280 there are definitely some does and don't to break in. 1. Prime the oil pump and or pump oil through the engine 2. Do not use synthetic oils. Use "break in oil". Synthetic oils will not allow the rings to seat (found this out myself).
Stats are already out there. No car manufacturer does a ritual break-in...need more evidence? All engines come from the factory with full synthetic oil in the crankcase and had that same oil in it from the very first start...kind of blows that theory out of the water about ring seating doesn't it?
@@justanobserver530I wonder how all of the new Corvette’s ever break in their engines since they come from the factory with Mobil 1? Ah, you have succumbed to yet another myth. Engines will break in just fine with synthetic oil.
@@LTVoyager spoken from someone who's never rebuilt a single engine, so anyone who reads your comment can know you're an idiot. All of the engines today that run on synthetic....do some research before you respond with asinine comments...better yet YOU rebuild a 50s, 60s or 70s engine and break it in on synthetic oil and THEN tell me how I'm wrong, dip shit
As a person who has manufactured both pistons and rings (Repco) the recommended 'run in' was loading the cylinder by using top gear at low speed and running up to medium speed. Then close the throttle (to re-oil the cylinder) and repeat 10 times. Job done!
This is exactly what I was taught by a tech school teacher. Have done this every time, no failures so far.
Top gear may lug the engine. Depends on the speeds you are talking about.
@@jhndijkman that's what I was thinking. Mid gear mid load seems better. Lugging is bad for all gas engines.
@@jhndijkman for small engines they want you to run at peak torque, so running the engine at low speed high gear would do the same. I personally do WOT high gear pulls (keeping RPMs low) for new cars that I get granted they already have some miles but my cars never burn oil.
i fill engine hot water till holds 180 degres start then do drags up to 3 then 4 by the time i get to 11 or 12 times i am takin it till valves float or rev limiter sometimes shut the engine off slow down do it again then let get cold so gaskets set check as many bolts as possible then fine tune cars motorcycles n snowmobils tracktor whatever
-Clearance the bearings and rings
-build it
-add cheap oil
-start it and run for about 10-15 mins whilst checking for leaks
-drive it for about 50-100 miles with alot of sub 5000rpm wot and deceleration in gear
-do this over 2-3 heat cycles
-change oil with correct spec
This is what I've always done without problems and on my high comp b20vtec
I break in very similar. Although i beat on it much sooner than that. Heavy emphasis on the decel in gear!
Without knowing a method this is exactly how I already began breaking in my new 406sbc
Andrea i love it mate, NOT RUN IN, IT'S RUNNING OUT. SO TRUE.
espectacular, gracias Andre!
This literally answered all of my questions. Thank you, thank you, thank you! ❤
Thanks for this. I've been searching for a detailed explanation on this topic for weeks. Beautifully explained
Glad it was helpful and thanks for the support ☺️
EXCELLENT video. Thanks man
Man I didn’t get this update.. glad this came up.
Excellent information! I've been using very similar techniques for 40 years with very good results.
Only just come to this video after pondering about certain procedures and uncertainties I followed on my 4G63. The engine was built by a reputable tuner. You're right that, really, there's a lot of common sense for the customer to apply here. I'm not an engineer or engine builder, but I always found the 1000 mile + run-in to sound like nonsense.
Excellent. I decided to do my own building (engine, transmission, and tuning)
HARD break in. It’s either gonna break or live forever this isn’t the 50s
now i have built Hundreds of motors and just ran them to see if any leaks maybe a few miles and gave it to the customer and always been lucky i guess never really had a great problem... i think as soon as you start it up and run it for a few mins it is a good one... and after a month of running it i think it is going to be a winner...
39:08 Epic time of this Webinar, But this Video is wonderful and full of gold informations.
Thanks so much for all the informations guys.
Always informative and interesting content. It does depend on you speak to. HPA always offer you great content 👍 Aussie Fan 💯🇦🇺💯
Can you make a video about spinning g bearings
Until I saw this, I thought I knew what I was doing. Thank you for the clear and thorough education. I have my own You Tube Channel and will take inspiration from you methods.
I broke in my engine before watching this video, and I regret doing so very much. I had a tremendous amount of blow by for the first two hours of idle after first startup. The moment I started driving it and seating the rings, that blow by went mostly away, but now I get some crankcase pressure. If I had known then what I know now, I definitely would have started driving it earlier. Absolutely top-notch and invaluable information. Cheers.
Better late than never and at least you have a better idea for next time. It's hard to get everything perfect first time around when you're learning, and we're all always learning. Most important fact is that you're out there doing it, seeing what you can do better in the future, and taking it on board.
If you ever feel like you know it all and have nothing left to learn, that's when you should worry 😅 - Taz.
Well articulated. Excellent video. Well done for taking on a difficult subject. I've learnt something. Thank you
Thanks Phil! That's our goal, appreciate your taking the time to comment 😎 -Taz.
Outstanding best detailed explanation I have heard yet. Excellent presentation. Thank you so much.
You're very welcome, hope it helped/helps and thanks for the encouragement 😎 - Taz.
something we always do after an engine build, is turn the oil filter a few turns loose and crank the engine (without spark plugs in it) and als soon as oil comes out of the filter you fasten the filter while you keep cranking, this makes it more easy for the oil pump to get rid of air and you are 100% positive the oil pump is actually working.
Especially on bike engines this will speed up the process of bleeding air out of the channels and the pump.
This also helps a lot on yamaha's, who dont have an oil pressure sensor but an oil level sensor... when you only depend on the oil light this may end in tears.
Great vid! Cheers!
Pre fill the oil filter!
Yes!
Excellent and thorough explanation of a process with tons of hearsay and misconception floating around out there. Your method is pretty much my method, and it has served very well for both an Alusil bore Porsche 944 engine I did (with only a homebrew DIY cylinder deglazing/re-lapping process to boot...Alusil can be super finnicky with surface prep for new rings), and a more conventional Honda B20Z2, both of which broke in perfectly with no smoke or oil consumption. I have a Honda D15B VTEC to break in tomorrow, actually, and a Hyundai Delta V6 engine in a couple of weeks that has reground cams, so also put me at ease on how to balance cam versus ring break in.
Oil.
When I worked a John Deere dealership, a rebuilt engine would be hung a couple feet above it's oil pan and a pressure bottle would force oil thru the galleys. What you thought was sterile would put pieces of gasket, adhesive, metal and whatnot into the pan before cleaning and assembly.
As a Triumph motorcycle mechanic we would run a motor around the block and change oil, run a couple miles, change oil, then maybe 100, and the oil was always showing metal dust, but they didn't have filters either.
Hearing of ramrodding fresh engines for mega power, I had doubts. Many thanks to this video for showing the middle and safer road for that!!!
I build race engines, have probably built over 250 in 10 years. I would really say you need to break it in for at least 250-500 miles, especially before you take it to a race. If all your doing is a street car, maybe you can get away with less. That being said you don’t wanna baby it, you want to get to about 3/4 to 7/8 max rpm sustained. You touch red line but just don’t hold it there for longer than 2-3 second.
Last of all after break in, PLEASE get an oil change, plus filter AND spark plug change, fine metallic material, mostly from the rings will coat and stick to the ceramic porcelain of the spark plug and can and usually cause less than ideal spark and combustion.
One of the biggest factors modern break-in is so brief vs "Old School" is lack of Leaded Fuel. Leaded fuel drastically impacted Ring bed-in during the Muscle car days. a long gentle break-in was warranted. Also very short oil change cycles were in order. Old School methods are todays myths. Now I'm off to have an argument with an older family member as to why you don't have to warm your modern car up for 10 minutes before driving it...
Yep, I break in my own engine after I rebuild it and I warm it up, check vitals and cycle from low to high rpm for five times each, check vitals and re- torque the bottom end and all external fasteners and put it on the street. No failures or serious problems other than leaky valve cover gaskets, oil filter leak couple if times but no other problems . Straight and round bores are a rings best friend and after that ,run it normally. All of my engines were big block Mopar and sportbike engines which were and are daily drivers. Good engine cleanliness, correct assembly and a good machinist are the key to good ring seal.
excellent information, thank you for the time.
Our pleasure mate - Taz.
Andre is the GOAT tons of helpful info 👌
That's his goal! Glad you found this and gained some help from it too 😎 - Taz.
Love all your video. Definetly going to sign up for your courses. Wanted to ask your opinion on gapless rings ?
ZDDP was discontinued in modern engine oils because ZDDP destroys catalytic converters.
It’s readily available in the US for pre catalytic converter vehicles.
Great video andre
Vlavoline VR-1 is very high in ZDDP and is a mineral oil! my VR6 loved it for 10k miles.
This was really great, with there was more information about rotaries and break in but I understand that we are far and few.
We're working on more rotary content. Building won't be this year, but tuning will - Taz
it sounds like rotaries may need the break in due to all the different seals and whatnot that they have relative to a piston engine. the vargas brothers seem to think so although im not sure how well acquainted with the science they are and that could likely be wrong.
Thank you for these awesome videos. Super informative and good info.
Assuming apex seals = compression rings, Do you use the same procedure for a rotary engine break in?
I don't build rotary engines so I can't advise you from experience. There isn't a hone pattern as such on a rotor housing but I would still expect the apex seals and side seals to seat or bed over the first hour or so of operation. If in doubt then I'd consult a rotary engine specialist.
On new engine builds I take the oil cap off, pull the timing belt, hook a hand drill up to the oil pump, and spin it til I see oil in the head for about 5 minutes. Then timing belt on and fire engine.
I had a question - I started an engine rebuild and life got in the way (had to do a job move, etc), the engine has been on my engine stand for a couple years now. I used a permatex assembly lube back then, should I disassemble the engine again now and start over with the crank, etc to re apply the assembly lube??? I haven't put the rods and pistons in yet. Just the cam and crank and the crank is torqued down. Engine is old school Ford 352 FE bored .030 over. Going into a 1967 F100. Not a race truck but I don't want to hurt it at start up either. Thanks, love the videos. Clay
Why does the oil filter not filter out the ring debris before it gets into sump and so back round through the oil system.?
Thank you Andre, great video that came just in time for me as I am just about to break in my fully built 2jz. Was debating about how many km should I do on the road before strapping it on the dyno.. the fun part will begin sooner I guess 😁 cheers
You're welcome. Glad the timing worked out!
Awesome video, the only time I change my break in process is in ring material black steel vs chromemoley
I feel better watching your video. Being a little anxious and amatuer i bought my 406 SBC n/a as a longblock and installed myself.
#1 should I have used break-in oil even though Tri-Star engines recommended conventional 10w/40? (I'm fine there... engine oil is perfect)
#2 I did prime the pump with a drill so I'm fine there with 70 p.s.i.
#3 I TOOK IT OUT AND DID A FEW BURNOUTS, but it's a 2,850 lbs S10 pickup with a 4:10 gear so it spins super east on the street, I drove it about 15-20 minutes circling Telegraph Rd and Eureka on open headers yesterday. Fun as shit!
I'm going to take it easy and cruise it varying between 2000-4000 rpm in 3rd gear and let the rings seat some more...
awesome video, I just wished the people asking the questions watched it too
I think one of the most overlooked things is the very first oil change I feel like the engine should be run for just a few miles and then get an oil change to get rid of all of the metal and other contaminants that happened to be there during the engine building process
I'd agree, and this is covered in the webinar.
that's why god created oil filters
@@AnissaEx All engines I've seen have some type of filter bypass, the filter doesn't catch everything.
@@jeffreydurham5342 Probably why they don't want high revving until that first oil change.
Use a good quality oil filter, replace it immediately, as you replace the oil, after that initial break-in. It's imperative, that the filter be a fine enough mesh, that it filters particles larger than the film thickness of the oil.
I’m building a fresh hayabusa turbo engine but also going to be using a MegaSquirt ecu for the build. Would you recommend I get the ecu running on the original engine first before rebuilding so I can seat my piston rings properly once the rebuild is done? I don’t want to have any chance of engine damage because the ecu isn’t programmed completely for the first run/break-in.
How would you guys tackle this usually?
Excellent advice as usual, used to work with an ex Cosworth guy and they would throw Vim into the stacks of the DFV to bed the rings and get lots of exhaust sparks .have you tried dry fitting the pistons and turning over by hand for a few rpm ?
Had an old Mercedes on Bosch k massively over fuel and bore wash after 15 minutes , smoked like a train , perforated map diaphragm was the cause
Turning over by hand unfortunately won't do much useful in terms of bedding the rings. We really need combustion pressure in behind the rings to force them against the hone pattern.
I just did a rebuilt on my 5.9l magnum heads and I didn't do anything on my cam & lifters
Or crank and so on. When I put the
Lifters back in I did put 105 part lubricant grease on them and on the camshaft and on the distributor gears and on the Rockers as well. My question is can I just get by with just dumping 5 quarts of oil and zinc all over the Rockers camshaft and down the oil galleys and let it drain down to crankshaft before I button everything up and then start it without having to Prime the oil with the distributor which I'm not looking forward to. Thank you much for your time love to video thanks for your patience and help
I found that in most cases where the flattappet camshafts dont bed-in right is because theres some that use the thicker assembly lube to lube up the whole lifter sides and all and that can become so sticky the lifters cant rotate correctly. I apply ZDDP additive with 10/w/30 in a small handheld oilcan to the lifter bodys and put the assembly lube only on the bottom of the lifter and the camshaft lobes only.I also lube the camshaft bearings and cam journals with ZDDP additive and 10w/30 motor oil as I always prime my oil pumps before start up and use a Moroso dry start eliminator pressurized oil can at start-up....
Nice work
FYI, it's been my experience that most engine builders are using way to much oil on piston rings. For my NASCAR and aircraft performance racing engines, I use 3 drops of oil on each ring and very thin film on the cylinder, piston skirts, and oiling pin, using rubber gloves. Then to dyno
turnin wrenches on leaf blowers for mommies garden is different than modern day high performance engines. shut the fuck up if you don't know shit and stick to garden duty
Thank you I recently had oil mixing with my coolant mls gasket I retorqued the head and has seem to went away
You may want to change it soon
after a rebuilt and right before the very first engine start , I always use pressure remote oil feed , using the oil pressure port. I usually inject 2.5 ltr of oil , this will prime all the engine , oil pump included. on tha first start the engine will have instant pressure. the tool I used is an DIY one from an water filter. is equipped with manometer , air pressure regulator , air trigger controll and for oil fittings I use the ones for a oil pressure test kit.
Yes, that's a valid option and one that many use. If you run a dry sump pump then you're even better off as you can remove the belt and drive the pump manually to achieve oil pressure prior to startup. The reality for most people though is that removing the spark plugs and cranking the engine on the starter is absolutely fine and you won't do any damage provided the engine was properly lubricated during assembly.
@@hpa101
This doesnt apply to rebuilds or engines modified for high performance ce use but production engines are tested in cells for oil pressure, ignition timing, cam sensors if any, vacuum etc. All drilled oil passages are washed with high pressure. Plus on aluminum blocks and heads oil passages are gun drilled using a high pressure coolant. If the coolant flow is interrupted at all during the gun drill process the gun drill will seize in the hole. These holes can be drilled 300mm deep or more in around 20 seconds. The odds of machining debris inside a production engine is extremely low today. In the past with cast iron engines that's a different story.
Breaking-in removes the tops of the hone peaks as the rings bed-in, and cylinder rings, cam shafts, lifters, and valve guides 'lap-in'. I've seen engines torn down with high mileage that still have significant hone marks, as the honing also provides valleys where oil lubricates long after break-in. Yes moderate loads and varying the rpm is the best approach for break-in for the first several hundred miles. Yes, an engine breaking in generates more heat from all the friction of new parts 'bedding-in'. Avoid breaking in at highway speeds on very hot days. Could over-whelm your cooling system, and your oil's ability to lubricate.
With all modern engines having much tighter tolerances than older motors, it's always wisest to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for break-in. Early first oil changes are a controversy. Some see it as cheap insurance to ensure minimal oil contamination from break in. Others see it as the premature removal of the manufacturer's break-in oil, to a waste of time and money. I think changing after the first 3000-miles as not harmful, and cheap insurance. Oil doesn't break down, the additives do. OEM oil filters should be able to remove any particles that could cause wear, so there's minimal risk.
As to not using synthetic oils for break-in, I believe Corvette engines come from the factory with synthetic oil, but I'm not sure if they are a synthetic break-in oil... GM has used a lot of racing R&D and experience on their premier brand so they should know what does and does not work...
I think it's a mistake to put your credence on anyone's 'personal experience'. No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. 'What has been shown to work' for one builder could be different than 'what has been shown to work' for another builder, so all advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
"No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. "
You are right, but Toyota for example built your 2jz for 200hp or so in a road car, not 600, 1000, 2000hp or more for circuit, drift or drag etc using aftermarket parts like your local independent builder will have done 100's if not 1000's of times (depending on the specific shop and engine).
Modern engines are certainly coming from the OEM with less headroom than older ones for sure however, and the gain or salt comment is bang on noting that also applies to the OEM if you are not keeping within their specifications and parts lists... ;) - Taz.
interesting, I may need to revise my break in procedures for rotary engines.
🤣
A question about loading the engine on the dyno. You talked about loading it for 2-3k rpm 10-30 procent throttle for 10-20 seconds then cooldown the rings and then run again for about 15-20 min. Then gradually go for something like 4500 rpm 60-70% throttle for about an hour. In this last case, where we run for higer load for an hour, are we running this without cooling down or are we doing it for a few seconds and then cooling it down like in the first case ?
I went to school with a kid from the McMillen racing family. He told my autoshop teacher that they hard break in all their engines for about 15-20 minutes.
I bought a new 2019 370Z with the VQ37VHR engine and was careful in the break-in process. I have used the recommended Nissan Ester oil, high in Molybdenum, throughout with a Fram Ultra synthetic filter, both changed every 3K miles. I did an early oil and filter change at 200 mi, 600 mi and 1800 mi. After that, I went to a normal oil change interval. For the first 1K miles I kept engine revs below 3500 and only used gentle acceleration, with varying engine speeds and loads for periods that didn't exceed 1/2 hour. I waited until the oil temp would get to 140 degrees F before taking off and keeping the revs not over 2K until the temp would get to 180 deg F. Between 1K and 2K miles I gradually increased acceleration levels and allowed engine rpm to max at 4K for brief periods. I continued to baby the engine until I got to about 5K miles. Now at 15K miles I use barely 1 oz of oil per 1K miles.
A couple of things I'll mention here. Your technique is probably similar to how the majority of people treat break-in - maybe in your case you've taken things a bit further with additional oil changes (which I'd say are a great idea). This technique isn't necessarily going to end up with terrible results, or an engine that consumes oil. The saving grace is that modern ring materials and honing techniques make it very difficult to actually make a mess of bedding the rings. That being said, in my opinion you've basically spent around 4800-4900 miles unnecessarily breaking in your engine when you could have been enjoying it instead. It's never a bad idea however to keep the rpm and load low during engine warm up though. Being a little more aggressive on the break in process also has the potential for improved ring seal which can result in improved power, not just a reduction in oil consumption - Andre
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
The car has about 57K miles on it now and shows no discernable oil usage on the dipstick at the end of my 3K mile oil change intervals; I'm using the same oil, filter and warm up practices. One thing I did do is to go with a taller filter that offers about 50% more filtration area, as an attempt to reduce the slightly greater pressure drop that occurs with this particular filter because of its higher than normal filtration efficiency.
My exhaust tips show minimal amounts of soot or any other kind of deposits on the insides of the pipes, indicating to me that the engine is burning cleanly. One thing I do that may be helping is that I run a mixture of Redline SI-1 complete fuel system cleaner in the ratio of ⅓ oz per gallon of gas. This is for additional cleaning and lubrication of the upper cylinder area. I did pull one of the spark plugs and dropped a borescope into the cylinder to inspect the top of the piston, which was devoid of any deposits except for a darkening of the aluminum surface. The spark plug looked good, despite the richer fuel/air mixture that I'm running. Taking off one of the throttle bodies, which I had to do to get access to the spark plugs on one of the banks, showed very little gunk downstream of the butterfly valve.
I think this is a testament to the improved materials and techniques you mentioned that modern engine builders use as opposed to what I was familiar with back in the 60s and 70s. @@hpa101
Great info Andre.
I recently bought my first new car, an 86. Never dreamed I would buy new but have spent _my entire life_ thinking about exactly how I would break in a new engine if ever I had the chance!
I logged oil temp, manifold etc. from the first drive to know exactly what to do. Used most vacuum possible, little load. Revved it out fully when appropriate very early on.
It hasn't used a drop of oil and a relative has had two Subarus in a row with the FA20 that have gone on schedule at the dealer due to losing litres per few thousand k's.
I have BRZ, what oil do you use?
@@saulespino2510 Castrol Edge. Test results have come back very good.
when built mine the rebuild company (PAI) told me to load the engine straight away. when i asked them how they told me to use a dyno and break (well i dont have that) so they suggested hooking another car or large trailer up and dragging it under heavy throttle for a couple miles... not sure if 'seating rings' really matters but i borrowed a friends trailer with a loader on it and drove around with that when i pulled it out of the garage for hte first time
46:30 It's also worth noting with old American pushrod V8s, you can remove the distributor and drive the oil pump directly using an electric drill to prime the engine. There are tools made exactly for this purpose.
I don't trust the cheap Amazon ones. Junkyard 4.3 or any size small block distributor cut open works and it's made for our motors so I like them better.
@@406MenaceRacecar I bought a proper tool from Jegs for my Windsor. It's made by Melling Engine Parts.
well that was a long watch but very good info.. obviously a lot of experience with fresh motors.. So much bad info on the web about this subject and nice to hit one that pretty much knocks it out of the park for accuracy..
A couple side notes on "flat tappet" cams... "flat" is relative, lifters are actually "convex" ground so refacing is a process that is really "iffy".. buy new.. Cam is also bathed in a lot of "splash" from crankshaft and drain down from engine valley.. (this is in fact a problem on the new "Hemi" motors from Mopar.. cams are running too dry and self destructing... Is the main reason for the 2000-3000 RPM process.. get oil up there...
"most" racing oils are high in ZDDP additive package but lack detergent packages.. I like them for break in before going synthetics...
You do know that the "authorities" will be here and then bring up Cr and DLC coatings.. blah blah blah... more things change, the more it stays the same... find info specific for your build..
Driven brand break in oil is excellent
Only break in I've ever done was a short run at about 2500rpm, not idle, when using solid lifters, hydraulic non-roller, and that's only because it's recommended for lifter seating on the camshaft... roller lifters don't have such a recommendation... outside that, I only changed oil after about 300-500 miles, then ran the engine as I desired......
Pretty good.
But the zddp issue is with the catalytic converter.
Yes. Eats cats like crazy. That’s why the 80’s engines ran so long with exceptional mpg until the cats clogged
How about break in rpm during initial start up with a new cam and at same time having to bleed the cooling system on subaru ej257?
Just wondering what the pressure difference is across idle vs revs for an NA engine, regards bedding in piston rings from combustion pressure. Boosted applications are obvious in their difference, but what of NA and how does that change across natural compression ratios or different intake setups like ITBs vs single?
Very intresting video!
Any tips to break in the engine block at the bench?
Sledge hammer?
Nikasil has been around since the 1960's, Mahle developed it for Porsche. Only recommendation I've ever seen was from Kawasaki motocross bilks, use 400 grit wetordry.
I'm breaking in a motorcycle (well, it's a scooter :) right now and am doing it very much like what you're describing here. I've already had my first oil change at 200 miles (stayed with a mineral-based oil). When could I switch over to a quality synthetic? Thanks!
On the idling note. There is a diesel mechanic on YT that found that the trucks that spend the most time idling have polished cylinders allowing lots of blow by. He had a costumer bring in a very clean low mileage dump truck that was consuming huge amounts of oil. The guy he had bough it from said it was is good condition because it sat idling (more than usual apparently) while waiting for loads to hual. Basically the outside of the truck was great, but the engine had to be rebuild.
Yes, that's very true. There still seems to be misconception in the diesel world that idling is acceptable and even desirable which has never been true. Just don't beat on it or put significant load on it until your oil and coolant are up to temperature
Hello.
Great information - thank you very much!
Still this leaves a question for me.
Will the use of oil with ZDDP in it slow down the bedding in process of the piston rings?
Greetings.
Martin
No. You don’t need extra ZDDP for new engines. It’s for already worn, about to wear, and race engines that WILL wear rapidly in use. Think of ZDDP as bondo. It fills in the gaps of metal imperfections in the engine when wearing begins.
Motul 300v for the win. I run that stuff in my regular motorcycles
We'd break in 14:1 race engines for about 30 minutes. never had an issue. Of course they only had to last a month.
Basically just a single heat cycle and then some brake loading cycles when back to temp.
i just built an engine and im glad i stumbled on this, makes me feel better cause im gonna go out and beat it lol
I have a theory about oil usage on Honda engines.
I've done a lot of work on Honda B and K series engines over the years and some will use maybe 1 litre of oil per 1000 miles and some won't use a drop. Both can be used the same, on the same oil and have similar mileage. Both can make similar power. Both types are really common.
My theory is that the ones that use oil, followed the manufacturer break in period of however many thousands of miles, and the ones that don't use any were beasted from day one. I can't prove it but it makes sense. It's almost always ring failure when they start smoking too, usually gummed up oil rings.
On a Subaru motor, in this case a SOHC motor with roller rockers, (stock rebuild--not forged) is it necessary to run straight grade detergent free Zinc oil? Or will a multigrade conventional (non synthetic) oil work fine?
i thought only pistons with "gas ports" used combustion pressure to aid the ring pressure ... its a small notch put in the top of the ring groove to alow the gas to get in there this is paired with special low tension rings
23:10 in there by immediatly after the startup, bring the engine RPM to 2500, you mean like really just after turning on the engine rev it up? like with cold start temperature? or you need to let it idle for a moment or a minute or two to get some temperature and then rev it to 2500 RPM?
Great video and info, thank you.
I have very little knowledge mechanically and this is exactly what I did breaking in a new motorbike I brought in 2015. Read that sitting at the same rpm was the worst so used a “hard break in” method used on race dirt bikes. Used varying loads with acceleration and de- acceleration over a range of gears and rmps progressively increasing the throttle. Not practical to do on the road out of the shop as your rolling on and off the throttle but I did this for the sole reason of maximum compression by seating the rings to the cylinder bore wall.
high quality mineral oil is okay for a turbo engine break-in as well?
What sort of oil would you use if you was just replacing rings and big end bearings?
Nice to know I've allways done it the correct manner, and most good engine builders use this technique, as I've understand. Only addition, is that when running in NiSiC ("Nikasil") coatings, you really need to be even quicker and more brutal from the get-go. Also if possible, if the engine coolant can be circulated and heated and oil can be heated, so the engine is at working temp faster, this will also aid the rings to seat to the bore in its form where its mostly going to opperate, from the get go, especially if the block is bored and honed at operating temperature.
I haven't had the pleasure of working with nikasil coatings which I'm not unhappy about :)
Nothing more stressful than a new cam break-in on an all new setup motor back in the carby days.
Better hope your jetting/valve/spring guesses were close enough for you to dial in 6 different screws while trying to constantly vary RPM
Not something I have had to personally bite my nails over but I can appreciate the work! - Taz.
What are your opinion on a boron additive to the oil? For break in, but also for normal use?
As a general rule I don't use additives. I'm not a chemist so I'm not in a position to advise and I like to think the chemists developing the oil know more than me. About the only additive I would advocate (as it's well understood and proven) is zinc or ZDTP which can be particularly beneficial in flat tappet cam break in.