MTA Eyes Possible (G) Train Shutdown
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- čas přidán 17. 01. 2024
- The MTA is looking into shutting down parts of the Crosstown Line that serve Brooklyn and Queens with the (G) Train. This shutdown would take place over the summer and would clear the line to help the MTA install its new CBTC System faster.
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#CBTC #nycsubway #mta - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Queens Blvd CBTC (from 50th street to Kew Gardens) took over 5 years to be implemented, and work had to take place during weekends and late nights since it is not a feasible option to run any other service to replace the trains on a weekday. I remember those days riding the E or F home and it was a PAIN. Now fast forwarding to today, the line has become much much better.
However with the G, it is a better idea to actually close parts of the line for 6 weeks. It is definitely possible to utilize frequent shuttle bus service along those neighborhoods on the G line. I have faith that shutdown is worth it for faster implantation of CBTC
I agree with the G shutdown. The faster it gets down the faster the line is fully operational
Agreed.
I don't know if I agree with the G Train Shutdown, Because It Would affect riders who use the G Train in Brooklyn and Queens....
@@KimmyAlburo3287 This is exactly how I feel!
@@meowcammi Me Too! This is How i feel bc the g train would affect riders in brooklyn and queens, and they would waste time getting to their destination...
@@KimmyAlburo3287 10 years ago there was a full shutdown of the Crosstown Line between Court Square and Nassau Avenue for Sandy Repair work. Free shuttle buses were provided. This version of the shutdown will be nothing different.
Hopefully this would potentially allow it to be full length, implement the full Culver Express service and possibly extend it back to the Queens Blvd Line (I’m referring to when CBTC is fully activated)
yeah sadfully no
The problem is with the stupid M train.. The MTA didn't know what to do with it.. If the MTA were to extend the G train back into 71 Continental AVE..it would make the Local track too congested with 3 subway lines running on it. You would have the R, M, and G train running on the same Local track..
By the time that this finishes, the M is gonna resume regular Queens Blvd service. They can’t run 3 lines on the same tracks cause it causes congestion.
@@amazinlion true unless if they go through with QueensLink also the F might end up getting the 53rd St Tunnel permanently while the M solely handles 63rd St.
@@amazinlion EXactly..my point👍👍
I think that for the 6 weeks there should be Shuttle Buses in Place of the G Train of where the work will take place. By the time CBTC is done the G could become one of the best routes in the system and I hope in the future gets longer trains to better handle the crowds as 5 cars are not enough and that would also allow the G to handle local services on Culver on its own and that would beef up the frequency on the G line by a lot by having the F on the Express tracks. Of course I hope for full length G Trains when the R211 order concludes.
I live in Paris, where most lines have at least some sort of automation and 3 (currently) are fully automated and driverless, including 2 that were more than a century old when they were converted.
(Plus 4 new fully automated lines currently being built as part of the huge Grand Paris Express expansion project, and a 5th new line officially proposed a dew weeks ago).
These 2 very old lines, M1 & M4, the busiest of the "regular" metro network, were modified and equipped with new signaling systems and platform screen doors by night. With only a few shutdowns, 1 or 2 days here and there.
After installing some platform screen doors, each and all new sets of PSD were operational in the morning for first services of the day.
So it was mostly transparent fir users that discovered new equipment on the morning...
The results are great, about 1 minute and a half frequency with the possibility to reach 42 to 45 trains per hour per track if needed.
M14, which was built as fully automated driverless from day one is currently set at 80 or 85 seconds between departures during rush hours (42 to 45 tph per track).
Same for the ultra high capacity RER lines (regional high capacity express metro), especially line A, which has a great signaling system that was augmented with an autopilot a few years ago.
Even before the autopilot addition, you could see trains entering the stations before the previous one had even cleared the platform. All that thanks to the super efficient SACEM signaling system.
And of course, upgrades were made almost exclusively by night, with only a small number of separate days of shutdown (usually on the peak of summer holidays during Sundays when the city is pretty much empty of locals).
It was absolutely unthinkable to close the line during weekdays as it carries 1.5 million passengers daily.
In a few months (spring), the first stage of RER E's Western extension will open with the activation of the NExTEO system on the entire central trunk (underground) of this line.
NExTEO is a new CBTC centralized remote autopilot system allowing extremely high frequencies in the core.
It will also be implemented on the central trunks of B and D.
It should allow a goal of 44 trains per hour per track (multiply that by up to over 3000 passengers per train)....
With a 30 second minimum separation, 20 to 40 seconds of dwell time, and 10 to 20 seconds of buffer, in a 80 second cycle. But with the possibility of reducing separation in stations to only a few dozen meters.
CBTC systems, or their predecessors, are fantastic to offer very high frequencies and solid operations while improving safety.
So for New York's subway, it's about time!
And better to have a few days of shutdown during a low ridership period than to continue having to cope with service reliability issues and congestion.
This is not a surprise, I expected the summer to be used in order to get their signal modernization done.
It’s also not the first such shutdown for the G. You may remember, service to Queens was suspended for a large portions of 2013 and 2014 to make repairs to the Greenpoint tubes after Flood Waters damaged the tubes under the Newtown Creek.
So this shutdown will be familiar now, since they are modernizing the Crosstown lines.
I was at 21st Street station on the G train nearly several years ago, and the conditions along the southbound track were so bad, I would've welcomed a shutdown.
As someone who lived near the G for 14 years. I'm pretty sure this shutdown is probably worth it
Definitely, it will speed up the CBTC installation process.
Hot take: making 5-car G trains more frequent will happen sooner than getting 10-car G trains.
MTA doesn't need CBTC to make the G 10 cars. (To be fair, MTA also doesn't need CBTC to run G trains a little bit more frequently.)
It really comes down to how many trains we have. One good use of CBTC will be to manage merging conflicts at Bergen St. If G train schedules matched F train frequencies (the F *is* more frequent), that would still be a 40% capacity increase for the short term, while only requiring 25 more cars for service!
I do not advocate for full-time Culver Express until both the F and the G are reasonably frequent. Hotter take: Culver Express only makes sense with a deinterlined M train. Only by running the V into Brooklyn will the Culver Express be frequent enough to be a standalone thing, after which point the CBTC-equipped G train can be fully deinterlined as well and be able to run at max frequency. (As such, capacity at not only Essex St but also at Jay St-MetroTech would be doubled.)
For the G Train have the CBTC installed there and you should run longer trains because you have to run to catch your train will result in more crowding
Not enough trains to use full length
Thats the best way to get things done is to have longer shutdowns. Unfortunately thats in certain people's nature to complain.
I think this is the way to go with Crosstown CBTC. Unlike QBL, which is a trunk line with four (currently three) routes, and serves major neighborhoods of Queens while indirectly serving both airports to boot. The G can afford to be shut down, even if most Brooklyn to Queens trips will now ultimately require Manhattan.
Now, for 8 Avenue CBTC, I wonder if a similar type of shutdown could occur. The 7 Avenue Line is only a block away, and generally parallels the line. Imagine 6 weeks of A and C, via the F and D between Jay St and 59 St, the B fully suspended, and the M terminating at Essex full time (maybe make it go to Chambers?). The Q could also get extra trains, and every other one can run express on Brighton. It’s a fun thought..
Not to mention the E sharing with A C F to go from 2nd Av (it’s new terminal to QBL.)
Cool idea! It'd be an interesting couple of months but worth it.
For 8th Avenue, I do it is better to do the work two tracks at a time, with some construction barriers separating the work tracks with the ones still in active service. For example, the local tracks could close first and all service is redirected to the express tracks. This would last for a specified period of time. After that, the express tracks close and the service moves over to the local tracks.
9th or 10th avenue buses will need to be free in the interim
Me and my friends have been talking about it in a group chat. I hope the mta does something about the lines very soon so we could have much faster service and efficient ridership.
Would it be a good idea if there was a special E service that extends the E line from World Trade Center to Euclid Avenue or anywhere that passes Hoyt-Schermerhorn or Bergen St? The E does have a connection at Court Square and it could be a very good possible alternative, similar to the M getting extended to 96 St - 2 Av. There may be a problem about the capacity in the Cranberry Tube but, just comment your thoughts on a special E service.
Will it be fully installed after all three closures though? I thought not, but I could be wrong. If it’s finished after the summer time closures, that’s awesome. But if it’s a year of those types of closures, then I’m not sure if it’s worth it to remove service that way if it’s still going to take so long.
We implemented ATC in Toronto, and we dealt with 15 years of early closure and/or weekend closures. Now that it's fully implemented there's no increase in speed and they've cut headways.....just a warning.
From time to time you have to shutdown a line for even months to get major improvements done but those will last gor decades that is important.
Hope all riders have good alternatives to choose from.
Hypothetical if you were to shut down a line altogether, how long would it take to get the CBTC done on the whole thing?
I would say maybe 6 months?
@@MysticTransitDoes that time also consider doing other work on that same area aside from CBTC installation, such as track replacement and whatnot?
If they need to shutdown the G to finally get CBTC done, its fine by me. They need more reliable service
But this 6 week shutdown isn’t going to get it ‘completed’
I don't use the G train but I think the way the MTA went about it was actually genius
If the MTA publishes statistics on how the installation of CBTC improved frequency and reliability on the 7 and the L, G train riders may be more willing to accept the short term inconvenience.
Aren’t the 7 and L lines both basically fully automated? Or is that not really what CBTC is.
It is taking so long to install this stuff. I guess I’ll be old when they put it on the Brighton line lol
what about the 8th ave CBTC?
Shut down the G and get rid of parking spots on Marcy and Union avenues for 6 weeks for buses to use them
Manhattan Ave is kinda the biggest pita portion of it imo
Interesting
So if the G shut down does that mean the r160 go back to the (N) (Q)?
I say keep continusly working weeknights and shut down the G train on Weekends from Court Square to Hoyt Schermorn (it's easier to transfer to the A train to get to the F train at Jay st.). The streets that runs along the G train are very Narrow streets. Having Shuttle buses will only add to bus congestion in certain busy neighborhoods.
The narrow streets didn’t stop the MTA from fully closing the Greenpoint Tunnel for a full rebuild in 2014, so why is it stopping them from doing another shutdown now?
They're going to have to stop all but truck parking on Greenpoint ave if they are going to temporarily replace train service with bus service.
I think you mean Manhattan Ave?
@@RacksonRacksonRibss Yes, sorry.
Good ill stop riding the G soon
I get the point about getting the work done faster, but since Greenpoint proper doesn’t have any other subway service I think it’s the wrong way to go for that area. Weekend and late night shutdowns over a longer period would be better
This is not the first time a full shutdown of the Crosstown Line has been done to an extent. 10 years ago, G service was suspended for much if the summer between Nassau Avenue and Court Square for Sandy repair work, and they did provide shuttle buses for continuing travel north of Nassau Avenue. Shuttle buses will again be provided here.
@@TheRailLeaguer yeah but after Sandy was an emergency situation and I think it should be avoided outside of emergencies like that. The G also had way lower ridership 10 years ago
@@mmrw Still not a valid excuse to not do a shutdown on a line that still has low ridership. That hasn’t changed much in 10 years. There’s nothing wrong with doing a full line shutdown two (or in some cases, three) tracks at a time, and quite frankly, there needs to be more of these full shutdowns.
And besides, much like weightlifting to lose weight, there is no gain without no pain.
@@TheRailLeaguer bro have you even ridden the G recently? It is not low ridership at all and it’s really packed during weekdays, especially the part between Hoyt St and Court Sq that would be shut down
@@mmrw Yes I have ridden the G recently and ridership is still pretty low relative to the rest of the system.
Ridership on the route (and much of the system) drops off during the summer time, which is when this closure is taking place. Nothing wrong with extended line closures for a few weeks at a time. They’ve done this before outside of Sandy work, so it can be done here too. Not a big deal.
thats a good idea for the g train getting cbtc
A shutdown is very inconvenient but there is no gain without some pain. If they want to get the CBTC installed as fast as possible, a full shutdown is the best way to do it to get it done. They should’ve done that with the Culver Line (F) in Brooklyn. CBTC on the L and 7 lines has improved on time performance to over 90% on each line.
There would most likely be 24 hour shuttle busses
This isn't related to the topic of the video, but I think that the MTA should extend the (G) to Coney Island either as a Culver Local to supplement full-time express (F) service or as a Culver Express, running alongside the local F.
Not enough cars and too many congestion that causes delays at coney Island
@@user-zh2vw2qv9y Yeah I just feel like the express tracks between Jay Street and Avenue X are being wasted with the very limited 4 (F) Express trains each day. Maybe the (G) could terminate at Avenue X?
@@taxesv1nce142 The area south of Church Avenue has faster alternatives so there is no need for express service or a G train extension between Church Avenue and Kings Hwy.
@@TheRailLeagueragreed there is no need for that since that is why some F Trains end at Kings Hwy to reduce congestion at Coney Island.
Let’s hope this can make the G go via QB
Umm you do realize there’s a shutdown that’s literally impossible
My school is in the shutdown zone
1:34 you made some typo error is 2024 now!
You forgot QBL and Culver line
M to 96 st or 145 on Weekends
Why they shout down
They really should have finished it before but also they shutdown the G train line which is kinda sad.
1:30 Huh, this video is almost 5 months out of date! Why did you bother posting it at all, then? (It says 2023 instead of 2024.)
The G is getting cancelled and shutdown dude?
NOOOO NOT MY PRECIOUS G TRAIN!!!!!!
1:30 I assume you meant 2024 ... 😉
Is CBT really the reason trains run every 10 minutes rather than every 4 minutes. I thought it had more to do with ridership than infrastructure.
No. The G Train’s Frequencies have more to do with the Equipment available rather than ridership. Right now there aren’t enough trains available for the G to run 10 car trains, hopefully that changes in the future.
The G isn't garbage the trains are kinda horrible in Brooklyn bossman.
Why don't they just run the G train in peak hours and shut it down the rest of the day(s) and replace it with a shuttle bus? They compromised with the L so they can do the same to the G.
Also rip the iconic r68 G train, gone but not forgotten 🙏
In this case, it’s faster to do a full shutdown. Ridership is lower during the summer months.
Shut it down, fix it and you’ll get better service!🇺🇸
As someone who lives on the G and relies on it as my only option, I think straight up closing it for any extended period is ridiculous. I would much prefer they do the work late nights even if it means it takes longer. Shuttle busses are not a suitable replacement for anything beyond one or two days of maintenance.
Agree. The shuttle busses take 5-10x as long as the G in some of those more congested areas.
That statement of extended closures being ridiculous isn’t true, given that a decade ago G service between Nassau Avenue and Court Square was completely suspended for tunnel repair work following Hurricane Sandy. And guess what? The world didn’t end for six weeks. It can be done again.
@@TheRailLeaguer But the point being that a 6-week shutdown wouldn’t complete the project. Just would speed it up a lil bit. It’s already closed all night on weeknights. I’d almost rather they shutdown for a few months and get it entirely done than this weird ‘6 weeks’ just to still have a lot of work in front of them and still be closed all evening weeknights etc.
@@RacksonRacksonRibss I agree with you on the few months closure, but I was referring to the original commenters comment on the extended closures being ridiculous.
@@TheRailLeaguer Got it. Have a good day, friend
Noooo I ride the G
its ok they will be replaced with Bus service. So its better than nothing.
@@electro_sykes argh
@@electro_sykes ye I guess
😂😂😂😂😂
Really a lack of maintenance is to blame for signal failure. CBTC is really overrated in my opinion. The block system worked in the past and can still work if it were run properly.
Not overrated at all if the L and 7 saw over 90% improvements on their line
Not really. Auxiliary Wayside Signaling has its perks but nobody manufactures those systems anymore and fixing/maintaining that equipment in house becomes really expensive over time. So implementing CBTC on lines with the oldest Signal Equipment makes more sense in the long run. Not to mention, thats less equipment that needs maintenance out in the field under CBTC.
@@dubreil07 Still not up to '90s levels.
@@CaptainDripp Actually there are several manufacturers including Safetran whom the MTA has bought from.
Not really true since CBTC is not overrated and the block system is no longer working, even with better maintenance. Besides, CBTC is essentially block system 2.0, but with a more dynamic block system. Other cities have something like this, so why can’t NYC?
It’s also worth nothing that CBTC is up to 90s level.
Andy Byford wanted to have a system of overnight bus routes so the system could close overnight for repairs but you know, Cuomo had to step in and fuck that all up.
closing the subway completely overnight would be terrible, but his Fast Track of shutting down one train line instead of one track at a time was great.
They stopped providing replacement busses on the (F) line a long time ago so until they can figure out replacement service on this needed crosstown service NO SHUTDOWN
The thing with the F shutdown is that there are viable subway alternatives nearby, namely the Brighton Line. Quite frankly, many people living along the Culver Line south of Church Avenue have opted for the Brighton Line anyway since it’s much faster. As a result, they didn’t need shuttle buses, though quite frankly, they could’ve waived fares on the B35 between McDonald Avenue to the Church Avenue (Q) station.
Other than that, there shouldn’t be any impediment to shutting down the Crosstown Line a few weeks.
@@TheRailLeaguertrue but for the G Shutdown we are going to need shuttle buses for those 6 weeks. That’s the best ideas because we can get it over with.