Third Ave El Replacement Project | Lines That Never Were
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2023
- In this video, we will talk about the IRT Third Ave El Replacement Project, including its history, remnants, and whether the replacement project is needed today.
Sources/Further Reading
timesmachine.nytimes.com/time...
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_in...
www.wikiwand.com/en/Proposed_...
Music Used in Video
Shapes of Things - Michael Lockwood
I think the STUPIDEST decision the city made was discontinuing & dismantling the 3rd Ave el in the Bronx! Now it seems they regret doing it years later!
Robert mosses and governor LaGuardia made a dun ass decision s tairing down the ninth and Thrid Avenue Elevated line down like a dam fool. I'm telling you. Millions and millions of people are still processing about it non-stop and never will be stopped until they get it back together.
Let me tell you the real reasons why they have torn down the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line. One they did not take care of the Thrid Avenue Elevated line property and they let if get it to rusted. All they had to do is to do a complete inspections over haul trestles frames and beams and painting and stations like they do like the 2 5 4 6 7 1 3 M J Z F A . All these elevated lines that's up right now running. You are definitely 100 percent right. Some one mad the dumbest decisions to tair down the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line down. I totally disagree with the lower riderships and the old 8 Third Ave Elevated line making to much noises because that's a big lie.
Well nobody really enjoyed the el as they complained about the noise, it was also falling apart which posed a safety risk. So it made more sense to tear it down.
Here are the reasons the city tore down the Third Avenues El:
1950-South Ferry to Chatham Sq- closed due to the reconfiguring of the Brooklyn Bridge to highway standards and connecting it to FDR Drive.
1953-City Hall Spur- City Hall considered the elevated lines as a blight to neighborhoods and wanted to get rid of all of the els primarily in Manhattan.
1955-Chatham Sq to 149th St - closed and demolished due to Real Estate interests wanting to develop the Far East Side of Manhattan. Once the demolition was complete, property values on 3 Av in Manhattan skyrocketed and development boomed. However, this contributed to further decline of the El and of the Bronx in general.
1973- Bronx portion of the El closed. This was a cost saving measure for the TA. Ridership and population decline in the area along Third Avenue contributed to its downfall. Bx55 Buses replaced this service until 2010.
All during this time from the 1940s to 1955, the TA consistently cut back service along the el in order to discourage riders from taking it, and banked on the Second Avenue Subway and Lex to pick up the slack. The SAS never happened and the Lex remains severely overcrowded north of 86th street. The closure of the Third Avenue El was deliberate.
In the late 40s, "futurist" economists warned LaGuardia that demolishing the ELs is a big mistake and subways would reach capacity in a few short years. They were proven absolutely correct.
I remember the Third Avenue El. I also remember it being dismantled and I was thinking "Why?" Now we got a hot mess with the Bx15. Even when I went back to E163rd Street 40 years later, where I used to live from 3 to 7 years old.
And here I was thinking that a subway extension was necessary. I have been thinking about regional rail with Paris’s RER model and London’s Elizabeth line, but now that I think about it, it would be fascinating to see how some regional rail services could potentially be used in a way to provide important service on 3rd Ave., Corridor. Maybe some local Harlem line services with the regional rail model could fulfill the need for transit here! This could change everything, but would require a change in attitude, which is political
Extend metro north south via 2nd ave and you get a winner
One of the proposals for the 2nd Ave line going to the East Bronx was that it would recaputre the old NYW&B R.O.W. up to West Farms and E. 180 St and a branch would also go east to Throggs Neck and Fort Schyler if memory serves. The Bx55 ended up being an absolute failure, 6 months in. Especially the branch to 161 St that the TA really didn't want to run at all.
You are reporting what I knew about, that is, the installation of the Second Avenue Subway Line to run on Third Avenue in Bronx, that I learned as a teenager during the late 1960s decade. Thank you for refreshing my memory lane.
Gotta admit, this was one of the things I came upon after getting more invested in transit mapping and hearing the story behind the loss of infrastructure where it was very easy to be on the side of "yeah, just throw whichever service up the alignment because that's a tragic loss of transit access". I slowly moved away from subway service to something like the City Ticket or other methods used globally for blending regional rail access (under an in-city standard fare zone) to handle the traffic along the ROW. As an addendum to this, I do think that the city needs to invest in better maps/map branding and signage in general to show the relationships between subways, regional rail (MetroNorth & LIRR) and buses as that would make both casual users of public transport and rail fans more awares of where true transit deserts are which could also aid in developing better ideas for expansions versus ones built from the lense of only focusing on one of the modalities of transport around the city.
Edit: Though yeah if the Regional Rail option is chosen, infill stations would be needed to assist riders with their preferred stations along the way.
To go off on a related tangent though that I've had for quite some time when discussing Bronx extensions, what are your opinions on a Throggs Neck version of that 2nd Ave Bronx extension? I feel like letting the (T) be the 125th Harlem Crosstown allows it to snag some key transfers that give it better feeding to the Lex/6th/7th Ave/8th Ave lines and aids Harlem's primary East-West corridor a ton with traffic while sending one or both of the (N)(Q) following some deinterlining for greater train frequency (N & Q both sent on the express tracks up to the SAS; R sent to Astoria, Broadway W locals retired to add more trains to the R service) up to the Bronx along 3rd Ave until East 163rd before going east to Throggs Neck could be a better use of the trunk as it moves north into the Bronx. The borough is starved for good East-West options and Throggs Neck is enough out of the way even with the Lex Av (6) line whiffing it that this could be seen as a multiple birds for one stone kind of deal. (I don't particularly care for which actual lines do what here, this is more to give context to things lol)
Some people of talked about a Throgs neck extension, but I don’t think the people there want it. The built environment of the neighborhood is very. Hostile to transit.
A Subway in East Bronx would be cool. However, I would just let the Q go there since it already has 2nd Avenue service.
This should be an extension of the future 2nd Ave T line
So what you're suggesting is reviving many of the stations along the Harlem Line that New York Central (and later Penn Central) ditched between the 1950's and 1970's.
I think he meant something like that, but yes. It is intra-city after all, so it is necessary. This can be done way cheaper than a 3rd Avenue subway since you are not digging a new tunnel, which can be used for other dead zones like Throgs Neck.
As a kid i recall webster ave was a light traffic street , in vids it seems clogged these days. Living near claremont Park the 3rd ave el was used by us occasionally
Proposals to make regional rail in New York City more like rapid transit have been around for a while. While it might be plausible on the Harlem Division, there are certain challenges to consider. The Metro-North service patterns between Woodlawn and 149th Street are very complex, and adding the Hudson Division down to Grand Central makes them even more elaborate. It would have to be determined if more local trains could be added at The Bronx stations and what peak-hour headways would be possible. If Wakefield was truly to be a terminal for more trains, facilities would have to be added there to turn and maybe store those trains.
You should do a what if video with the IRT taking over the former Whitestone Branch of the LIRR, and extending service to The Bronx over the East River into Throgg's Neck.
I think that the Program for Action proposal was a "red herring," a way to placate The Bronx. Most of the second phase projects were in that category because the MTA had no realistic schedules for building them.Also, it was also not realistic to take two tracks away from Metro-North as both the Upper Harlem and New Haven lines depended on them. A final factor was that The Bronx was rapidly losing population by the early 1970's.
People really can't imagine how barren and abandoned parts of NYC really were during the 70s and 80s. Every block, in some places, was either a burnt out building or the rubble left from a burnt out building.
@@lordmegatron8444 I remember that quite well. Apartment buildings would be abandoned and burned right next to stations on the 2 and 4 trains.
I definitely can see where you’re going with the proposal of integrating the subway with the metro north. While the more popular opinion would be to rebuild the 3rd Avenue El, this option is better in terms of cost and time at least temporarily. You don’t have to pay for a whole line and won’t have to wait years doing so. This is the best way to right the wrong of what happened in 77 with the demolition of this line.
Since there are 4 tracks on the metro north, the subway trains can use the local tracks and the commuter trains can use the express tracks. The only thing this would change is that Metro North commuters wouldn’t stop in the Bronx or would stop a lot less; which would be convenient for Westchester residents. Anyone going from the Bronx to Westchester can connect at Wakefield and vice versa for those who want to go to the Bronx.
The local stops on this line are already further apart than the other lines. This May not be the third Avenue el, but it’s better than nothing and more affordable.
They should have the T line terminate at either bronx park (Botanical Garden) or Gun Hill Rd (Connecting it to the 2 & 5 Lines)
It could really help the area
That's not going to be easy.
Anyway They are definitely gonna extend the Q T trains to East Harlem and west side 125 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line.@@durece100
There was a real serious talk on exstend the Q T trains 🚃 phase 4 west side after they finish up three stations because it was on the news 🗞️ that they definitely gonna extend the Q T trains across west side to connect to the 1 Broadway line. It would definitely be easier to bring back the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line back so this way it could fit the iRT 8 trains to Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza like they did before. If you think I'm making up false lies I have the prof .
The root cause is that they removed two lines on the East Side (2nd and 3rd Ave) any only replaced it with one line (Lexington). One other question: Do Metro-North and the IRT have the same track gauge?
According to Wikipedia, both are "standard gauge" (4ft 8-1/2in). However, it says nothing I could find about the overall width of rolling stocks.
Things we could have had if we just kept some( not all ) Els. We could have 3rd ave, a line down Myrtle Ave in brooklyn, a 5th ave in bk and if they had kept the 2nd ave line keep the connection to queens plaza, that would be a tourist attraction like the loop in chicago.
The Bronx Portion of the 3rd ave El should have never been torn down.
Exactly 💯% right.
There was nothing wrong with the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line at all.
The fiscal crisis 🤦🏾♂️ that sh*t ruined alot of potential for nyc and commuters, me as a east Flatbush resident I would of definitely loved to see a nostrand and Utica av extension. U know what’s funny, I had my own 3rd av EL vision from Brooklyn to Bronx, I would love to display that but don’t know how
As child born in the '50s I grew up riding the 8 train later name the 3rd Ave shuttle. After the line was shutdown in the early '70s traveling on 3rd Avenue has become a nightmare! One day a former MTA employee told me that there is a subway tunnel running under 3rd Ave. and didn't understand why it wasn't being use. I don't really know how much of his story is true but do you have any knowledge of this subway tunnel under 3rd Avenue in the bronx?
It will definitely cost more than a billion to build underground Thrid Avenue. You have to remember that under ground they have the gas pips and water pipes and sewers and electrical lines under Thrid Avenue. When they first started to build the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line back in 1800s . They were definitely thinking smart no to have the 8 going under ground on Thrid Avenue because you know why because they were smart enough to build a elevated steel structures and concrete structures and they already had the gas pips and water pipes and sewers and electrical lines already under ground. What makes you think that the MTA and the new engineers is gonna be dum and stupid enough to dig under ground on Thrid Avenue and closing the street down for what?. You have billions and billions and billions of people has to live on Thrid Avenue Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx. If they close down the streets on Thrid Avenue and digging under ground for a subway train running under ground Thrid Avenue don't you know that they have gas pips and water pipes and sewers and electrical lines under ground if they even thinking about do that mess the gas pips and electrical water pipes lines could explode. God back and read the history about the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line how was it built.
Regional rail can only work if you can increase the frequencies of Local service from 30-45 minutes to 5-10 minutes which may not be possible since you're merging with the New Haven and Hudson Lines at 149th interlocking. New Haven and Harlem line service already experience delays merging before Wakefield with too many trains would be crossing each other during peak service. MTA would actually have to allow a transfer between MNRR and the subway which would defeat the purpose of City Ticket and MTA won't agree to that. MTA would also need to invest in rolling stock with multiple onboarding doors and realignment to the seating to handle the higher ridership. Plus you would need additional infill stations between 125th and GCT. The cost would probably be just as much as building a new line. The Bronx population unfortunately is going to continue to grow over the years and more public transit options will need to be in place. So long story short this can only work during a short term
Honestly 15 minute headways are more than sufficient for Regional Rail.
I wish they just kept all the Els running actually.
I will say while I do want the Third Ave El back, I do feel like the regional rail option is a good idea and you touch on those (the closer stations [I will say personally having the station at 168th is a better option than 167th as thats a direct connection to the Bx35 bus and the Morris and Webster public housing buildings near 169th and 170th streets], the shorter frequences, maybe different rolling stock to accompany the higher ridership like on the subway, and the lower fare costs), but I do feel there is some things I'd like to add.
1) The splitting of the Harlem Line into 2 different services (One that is Local in the Bronx and only goes up to Wakefield and One that is Express in the Bronx [Stopping at only Fordham and any other station between 125th and Wakefield that the New Haven line stops as a way to prevent long delays if something happens from Wakefield to all the way up to Upstate NY])
and
2) The construction of an underground tunnel that replaces the Metro North's 138th St Bridge (I don't think this is likely to happen due to the lack of area for it to return back overground in Manhattan before it gets to 125th Street and I don't think the MTA could afford to make the Metro North underground from where it enters in Manhattan all the way down to 96th street where it dips underground [The Bronx section would be a lot easier to get down however due to it being less developed around the Mott Haven area and]). If they could they would get rid of a delay causer that is not a daily thing but when it happens can delay trains up to 30 minutes, giving less of a reason for Lexington Riders to switch over.
Otherwise this is a pretty good plan which connects the 2 of the biggest shopping centers in the Bronx and serves a transit desert so it would be a big boost to low income riders that are forced onto the mentioned Bx15 and Bx41 aswell as the crosstown riders that use the subway to get into Manhattan or upnorth
That is a fair point. I originally had a station at around 170th St and did not have Claremont Pkwy and 167th St as stations because I wanted the line to have fewer stations to speed up service. But, I then realized the density around the area, and how one station is not enough, so I put a station at Claremont Pkwy and 167th St, so that the station spacing is even. But as you mentioned, 168th St has more density, so yeah, I now think a station at 168th St is preferable to 167th St.
I like the idea of regional rail, because do not understand my Metro North Railroad & Long Island Railroad need 4 tracks in The Bronx & Queens respectfully. The outer tracks in both scenarios can be used for local regional rail service within city limits. The railroads can still used the outer tracks for emergencies because by the FRA it is still considered a railroad so what is the problem with the MTA looking into this?
So yes, regional rail is best because it will be cheaper to convert and make new local stations, the question is should the regional rail lines be only within city limits and terminate within city limits (The Bronx & Queens) or should the lines continue into the suburbs (Westchester, Long Island, etc)?
BTW: "MTA Regional Rail" should be the branding if it happens in my opinion.
I have an idea on the number 2 and 5 there's a connection at Jackson avenue the third avenue El how to connection that's still can be used be used at Westchester and 3ave this is one of the answers to 239th Street
😂😂😂😂 @5:40 you see someone subway surfing on the last car handing 😂😂😂
You also see that south Bronx Thrid Avenue Elevated line is not there anymore. People in south Bronx is definitely suffering without the Third Ave Elevated line and they have the slow ass buses running like shit over there. Millions and millions of people are screaming for this Thrid Avenue Elevated iRT line to come back because it's definitely needed bro .
@@leecornwell5632 I am aware of that and 3rd Ave El taken down like 5 years before I was born. My dad used to ride 3rd Ave El to visit his grandma. I used to live in the South Bronx and it to me was a huge mistake for The El to be removed and torn down
They torn down the Thrid Avenue Elevated line down on purpose. I'm telling you. My Question is this why they did not tair down the 2 elevated line down in white plains road ? But yet they torn down the Thrid Avenue Elevated line down. The bottom line is Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses had fusted the TA workers to tair down the Thrid Avenue Elevated line down because they could not stand for no extra elevated lines to be the way it is today. I totally disagree with the lower riderships. I know you was definitely disappointed when your father told you that they were tairing down the Thrid Avenue Elevated line down.
If you see the R62AS rolling signs they have the 8 10 12 13 11 9 rolling signs in there. God does not like pride or ugly. That's the reason why they have the 8 signs on the R62AS. I definitely feel sorry for the south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx Thrid Avenue Elevated line because they don't have no Thrid Avenue Elevated line anymore and they are definitely suffering without the Third Ave Elevated line.
Matter of fact my whole entire family road the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated before they torn it down and they were protesting about they did not want this Thrid Avenue Elevated line to come down. They showed it on the News 📰.
Well they paid the price for it with the overcrowding of the Lexington avenue line
If there was a way to bring back the Third Avenue El I would terminate it at 204th st. Why? I would extend a Concourse line to Third avenue as the tail tracks at 205th St are just short of Third Avenue and make that a transfer point and a transit hub. You would still have a transfer with the 2 and 5 at 149th and now you would have a new eastside westside connection at 204th
11:45 “Tre-MOUNT”? Not tryna hate here but like- my guy, It’s pronounced “Tre-MONT”
Still a great vid tho lol
Good Bring the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back where it was. If they don't bring the 8 trains back let the 5 or the 10 trains to Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Queens plaza connecting to the 7 N W trains.
I'll keep it in mind, thanks!
@@techtransitassociationyou welcome brother man.
He speaks better than most New Yorkers. And his pronunciation is actually correct.
The 2nd Avenue subway should run under parallel Webster Avenue instead of Third Avenue.
That would be pretty wasteful, because Metro North is a block away from Webster Ave. Implement regional rail on Metro North and call it a day.
Why does it have to be under?
@@techtransitassociationthat can work too.
@@techtransitassociationWhile I' do say I wish that was never torn down and went to Fordham plaza, although regional rail may good it of course this really doesn't nesscary stop Bx15 riders on 3rd Avenue bit, I would say only a few but most riders from the Bx41. However, I'm not on key if it would flow for metro north as Express service sucks and it's much worse than the 6 and 7 Express trains. So building more stops may get things even more worse, it's like removing the b train from weekends on Brighton like it's going to be bad. Other than that n
Equipment can be the same metro north cars, the same cars can be converted to more subway use, longitudinal seating , but having a crazy pricing scheme to charge Bronx riders one price and Westchester commuters price according to distance from GCT, where service terminates for all rich and poor. Some might actually drive into the Bronx to get a cheaper ride, as people did when the third ave line was in use. There were 8 hour meters at the Fordham station, they took the el to 149 for 2 or 5 trains. No more parking lot or elevated. How long before Westchester drivers figure out they have a cheaper option for commuting to the city.
What about 138th Street, 176th Street, and 170th Street
At some point the 4 train in the Bronx needs to be replaced
Why?
@EndlessEarthProductions because it will require to much maintenance and try riding it its over capacity in the Bronx
Interestingly enough I used the map and made the 8 & 10 go through the 3rd avenue el but underground instead…
Under ground is definitely not gonna work. You know why I say that because first of all. When they had a vision right. They already had the gas pips and water pipes and sewers. The smart thing they did is to build the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line instead of digging under ground and wasting 20 years getting the 8 Thrid Avenue shutting down third Avenue for what. Where it's definitely cheaper to rebuild the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line back over again.
What makes people think they are gonna digging under ground on Thrid Avenue and having the 5 or the 8 trains run on the metro North railroad lines and removing two train tracks so the 5 or the 8 Thrid Avenue running on park Avenue to 138 street Grand concourse hell no.
@@leecornwell5632 you make a good point
I really like how you went in depth with explaining thr history and remains of the 3rd av EL but the problem with Rail is that whos gonna pay almost 9 bucks for a quick ride to Manhattan and back i dont think this idea will be possible but MTA should bring back the (V) going from Co-Op City to 2nd av via the Lower Portion of 3rd av and the Upper Portion of Webster until Gun Hill and transferring with the (2) and going Via Gun Hill but as sadi before this is near impossable because of Inflation tho the 3rd av EL was gone at the wrong time.
Sorry, but I don't think you know what regional rail is. Regional rail decreases the price to $2.75 and includes more frequent service. Of course, we would need fare gates, infill stations, and other supporting infrastructure, but that is cheaper than, say, a new subway line.
Also, regional rail is doable. Recently, the LIRR lowered the price to $5 within city limits. There is no doubt that they can go further and lower it to $2.75. Other cities have done regional rail, like Paris and London, they are hugely successful. In NYC, we pride ourselves to be the best city in the world, so we better walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
@techtransitassociation Your right in a sense but we are talking about the Bronx your plan could work if the Transit System as a whole has the same pay, Look at the transit systems in Japan even tho their served by different operators they have the same pay for Buses, Subway, and Rail and could get transfers by that. Since the main topic of the video is based in the Bronx, In Merto North you have to pay $9 while in LIRR the pay depends to where your going ($3 - $15) By all means I'm not saying your wrong but MTA is still in a debt crisis and won't lower pricing instead it will raise it, Plus not even half of the people Living in the Bronx is going to take Rail as they can just take the Subway as it's cheaper and serves more local areas.
@@BronXLimited All of the things you said here are doable. Unification of payment options is doable. Lowering the fares on Metro North is doable. You might argue that the MTA is in serious debt, but they are doing accessibility projects, planning to do Second Ave phase 2 and IBX, and CBTC installation. It is all about the political will. For refrence, the Triboro RX wasn't even on the radar until Hochul made it a priority. Now, money is being poured into studies on this new rail line, which could be reality as early as 2030. If there is political support for even the most obscure projects, then it will happen.
Finally, let's use your argument of money. The Third Ave subway, if rebuilt, will cost significantly more than Regional Rail on Metro North. We are talking about $10 billion versus something that can cost a few hundred million at most and could be done in less than 5 years. There is a better way, which is regional rail on Metro North. Once again, regional rail WILL LOWER PRICES TO $2.75 WITHIN CITY LIMITS. That is something that will be comparable to a subway, and yes, people will ride it. Just to give you a comparison, in Paris, 1.2 million people ride the RER. The Elizabeth Line in London, which is advertised as a commuter rail line and is integrated into the Tfl system, sees 600k riders daily. That is three quarters of what the 7 carries. This shows that regional rail, if done right, could be implemented successfully.
Cut fares that’s not an argument
@@BronXLimitedthen cut fares stupid
NYC needs to create a version of the Overground that London has. The best thing to do is create a new rail network with turnaround at the City borders with Westchester and Nassau. The regional rail should have turnstile stations and trains staffed with just one conductor and engineer. Frequent service and a slightly higher fare could help reduce the subsidy needed to run such a rail system.
why?
@@EndIessProductions Because City residents put up with the noise of trains going through its neighborhoods without getting decent affordable service from those trains. And separate operator within the City could cut the costs with rational staffing that would allow more frequent affordable service in areas not served by the subway or by are served by overcrowded lines.
8 train 2.0
The IND lines would not work because it's to big to fit At Gun hill road. The iRT would definitely fit on the Thrid Avenue Elevated line at Gun Hill Rd. Keep bringing up the iRT Thrid Avenue Elevated line back every single time. Just bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line back. They better not let the subway run on the Metro North line because it's gonna cost a lots of problems. Between the metro North and the subway line s . They can not turn the subway to metro North because the iRT lines is to small. Just let rebuild the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back where it was.
The subways would not work on the metro North because it will definitely cost a lots of confusion. Leave the metro North railroad alone and bring back the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back between Gun hill road where all the stops that the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line. All they have to do is to make a middle track s for the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line to make Express stops . The first stop would be Frordam plaza . East Tremont Ave and 149 street Thrid Avenue Elevated line connecting to the 2 5 trains and 138 street connecting to the 6 Pelham line. After 138 street Thrid Avenue they could definitely dig a hole tunnel so they could definitely run under ground to third Ave or fourth Ave Manhattan through Queens plaza connecting to the 7 N W trains. The second Ave subway line is definitely planning on running across west side 125 street and then 137 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line.
That's not gonna happen to run the 3rd Ave line where the metro North runs at hell no. What's gonna definitely happen is this they are gonna rebuild the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back I'm telling you. Like the mayor Eric Adams said south Bronx definitely needs Transportation besides the buses and that's the gospel truth. The Thrid Avenue Elevated line should of never been talking down in the first place. . The reason why they have torn down the Thrid Avenue Elevated line down is because of the governor LaGuardia and the old president Robert mosses could not stand for no extra elevated lines to be the way it is. Those two selfish evil bastards did not want this Thrid Avenue Elevated line to be running today. That'has nothing to do with the lower riderships . The bottom line is Governor LaGuardia and the old president Robert mosses had fusted the TA workers to tair down this Thrid Avenue Elevated line down. When you get a chance search up for governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses the old president.
@@leecornwell5632 Oh boy, where do I begin with this.
Firstly, Eric Adams promotes austerity measures, and that has been shown with him cutting school budgets and picking the worst project in Queens (Queensway), meant to obstruct actual transit expansion. So, I wouldn't expect to see him even entertain the idea of running more trains, much less building out a whole new elevated line from scratch, because he is going to claim that the cost is "outrageous" or something.
Secondly, if he had to choose between regional rail integration that would cost maybe a few hundred million dollars or a whole new elevated that can cost upwards of $10 billion, what would he pick? Regional rail, of course. Plenty of cities have done regional rail integration, like Paris and London, so why can't we do it? We are supposedly one of the greatest cities in the world, so we better walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Regional rail would achieve the same outcome, have a rail line on the Third Ave region of Bronx, and with infill stations at 149th St, 167th St, Claremont Pkwy, and 183rd St and trains running 15 tph, you achieved the same outcome as a full Third Ave subway.
Finally, La Guardia was never governor, nor was he even alive when the Third Ave el was torn down. He was mayor from 1934-1945, the el ended service in 1973, and torn down in 1977. That is more than 25 years between when La Guardia stepped down and when the el ended service. Even then, in the 1939 IND Second System, the Third Ave el in the Bronx would still exist, while the portion in Manhattan would be replaced by the Second Ave subway. Those plans of a Second Ave subway, the crumbling el, and community opposition was why the Third Ave el ended service. It wasn't because supposedly, La Guardia and Moses struck a deal to starve South Bronx of transit access because all plans show subway after subway after subway being proposed in the South Bronx that was going to replace the Third Ave el. Robert Moses on the other hand, was kicked out of power by Governor Rockefeller in 1968, five years before the el ended service.
@@leecornwell5632 You keep saying "Thrid" instead of "Third" & I've been shy to mention your mistakes. I didn't want to offend you.
Metro North needs their capacity. And they covered under Federal Railroad rules.
I can't see why a new elevated structure can't be built. We are not talking about Manhattan here.
Reverse peak service is already horrible and Metro North can stand to run 10 tph more. If infill stations are reopened and have locals on aMetro North make all of those stops, congratulations you created a Third Ave el at a cost less than $1billion. If you want the el back, have fun spending $5+ billion for new tunnels into Manhattan, then plus another 8 miles of el. I don't know about you, but I will take the cheaper option so that we can use that $5 billion and spend it on other extensions. Again, it is more feasible to convert the railroad into regional rail than to build an entire new line from scratch. This is NYC, not a Minecraft world.
@@techtransitassociation
3rd Avenue and Webster are duplicated heavily by the MNRR Harlem Line, I don't know about you but there is an opportunity to use the existing line to bring transit service in the area. Currently the Harlem Line stops at Melrose at 162nd Street, Tremont at Tremont Avenue, Fordham at Fordham Road, Botanical Gardens at Bedford Park Blvd, Williamsbridge at 233rd Street, and Wakefield at 241st Street. There are some neighborhoods that are bypassed at all due to no station there and others see paltry headways, Perhaps if stations were built in Morrisana at 168th Street, Clairemont at Claremont Pkwy, Belmont at Either E 180th or 183rd Street, and Norwood at 204th Street (all holding 8-car trains), rearrange Harlem Line service so that there would be a local service between Mount Vernon West and Grand Central (making all stops while service at Westchester and Beyond would go express to Mount Vernon West (as is the case sometimes), and even lower Metro North fare within city limits to $2.90, you could have expanded service within the 3rd/Webster Avenue corridor for a fraction of the cost of building a new subway line. The Bronx Metro North stations could see increased service. For 3rd Avenue and the parallel Webster Avenue corridors specifically in the long run I would propose converting all Bx15 and Bx41 LTD, SBS and local bus service routes into frequent LRT service which would feed into the Hub and even linking those routes to a Light Rail metro area into Queens as for the Bronx LRT service on the 3rd Avenue corridor would only be making LTD stops to Gun Hill Road then it would operate along Gun Hill Road to all of the sections in Co-op City Blvd while LRT service on the parallel Webster Avenue corridor would be making local and LTD stops to Gun Hill Road and then would operate along White Plains Road to Wakefield (possibly even further out to Westchester County).
For the Bronx I'm proposing SAS service via Prospect/Controna Avenues, the corridor is service by the Bx17 bus and currently has no nearby subway service (at least on the northern end), having the SAS routed via Controna Avenue could help bring better access to the Bronx Zoo and even to the little Italy neighborhood as a whole.
(This is meant as a longer term plan to replace the Dyre Avenue Line nothing to be taken seriously).
timestamp 5:40 is nuts
Exactly. The Thrid Avenue Elevated line definitely needs to run by it self again like they did before and not running on the Harlem metro North railroad line. He should of starting off at Gun Hill Rd white plains road Bronx right under neath the 2 5 trains and then curve to 200 street and cross over the old new York central metro North to Webster Boston road Clearmount Avenue Bronx 13:32 13:32
Why put the subway line on the Harlem metro North ? That's gonna definitely cost a lot of problems. They minds well better rebuild the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back where it was and don't enter fear with the metro North. The metro North railroad is fine the way it is and just put the GoD dam Thrid Avenue Elevated line back and just call it a day. It would definitely be cheaper to build the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back up instead of running it on the metro North Harlem line it doesn't make sense to run a subway line on the same exact tracks on the metro North railroad lines run . They could definitely do better than that.
That would be to much for the metro North railroad and cosing delays on the metro North and the subways Just rebuild the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back up and leave the metro North railroad Harlem line alone because it's definitely gonna cost a lots of problems I'm telling you. The Harlem and the Connecticut metro North is running smoothly and taking care of business and getting people to point A to point B with out no problems at all. What they definitely need to focus on is rebuilding the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back up.
@@leecornwell5632 I already explained why the Third Ave el is not worth bringing back, especially when there is already a cheaper option: regional rail integration.
@@techtransitassociationWe disagree with your proposal. Third Avenue is the retail of the area. While the Metro North as I remember back than is surrounded by housing projects. This is not an area that people want to be at. Plus, there is a major hospital on 3rd Avenue.
I wonder what was going through his head when he decided to put that comment to shame, and how he decided to feature it in the video
10:18?
@@techtransitassociationyes
@@techtransitassociationthe MTA wants to Tair down the white plains road line and the pelham line due to weak structures 🙃
@@R188Fleetwhere'd you read that shit 😂
I think that it was foolish of them to tear down those train lines, especially the 3rd Avenue el! How can you build new trains and subway tunnels, but you can't reinstall new tracks ⁉️ Clearly, someone has been bought off! If they would have kept those train lines NO ONE that lives on the east side and the Bronx would be complaining, the subways should have been built for extended service towards Queens and Brooklyn!
But metro north has taken the 8 trains place now