Greetings Sir… Must tell you I have had SOOO Much fun building my bike. Thank you so much for your expert advice and for the components I got from you. Everything has worked out great! You rock Sir! “Madness”
Great video I cycle to work & back every day I don’t drive been looking at hub motors but after seeing this video I obviously need a mid drive instead thanks for the video it really helped 💯
I had bought my used bbs02 preinstall on a big 22 frame bike. After like 2 years I finally swapped it onto a 18 inch frame and it feels so much better. I'm a small guy as well. The motor didn't fit in the bottom bracket I had to use a dremmel to slowly thin it out. I also thinned out some of the paint on the bbs02 as well (maybe that bad idk). But it the yeah took me 2 whole days to do because I also had to swap all the other parts like the drive train as well from my first bike onto the 18 inch frame. I also have a triangle battery and it fits perfectly. Tbh I wanted to maybe get a 16 inch frame but because of the battery I had to pick the 18.
LOL. I did my first conversion after watching that video and of course I bought a mid drive and loved it. Took me a while to realize that since I do food delivery and prefer single speed bikes a hub motor was just fine for me. If it wasn’t for the hills here 😆😆😆
First of all I live in the UK I was born driving a drink shift I've had 3 hub motor e-bikes and since I've got the mid-drive I always look forward to getting on that bike I understand the mid-drive plus I don't go hard on the crank and I have a spare KMC Chain and innertubes so I don't get cort short Johnny 😅
Man Johnny I'm so grateful for this vid!!! I had seen the previous one comparing the two where you called hub motors junk. So being 67 & not riding for over 30 years I began searching for mid drives. But after seeing this one I ordered this monster hub ebike this morning, or rather backordered one. It's a Kepler 52V Electric Fat Tire Bike with great specs (to dumb me). Ever hear of them? There's a cool vid on here by The Junker test driving one & it sure can git it! He said it's great for steep hills too. Appreciate any views you have on this one. Thanks.
@@davestevens4263 Thanks, & yes I am happy with it. At full battery it'll do 40 mph, & at 50% it'll do 20 mph. I've gotten 40 miles out of a full charge with pedal assist, & 20-25 miles on throttle only.
Hey Jonny I have a Stromer st1 and a gazelle Mondeo T9 I know the stromer cost more then the gazelle. But I have noticed is the stromer does better in the snow I think that hud motor weight in the back rim gives it better traction. I still like my gazelle.
One thing I'd add. If you want a step through bike, you probably will need to go with a hub motor complete bike. Good step-through conventional bikes worthy of conversion are very few and far between. There are folks who know how to ride a bike, but for whatever reason have difficulty with the range of motion needed to mount a conventional bike. However, If you're in this group - see if a dropper seat post can do the trick for you before you go researching step-through bikes. One other thing. Compared to a ready-made affordable hub motor bike, a retrofit bike using any conversion motor will be tens of pounds lighter. A lighter bike is easier to lift and to transport without investing in bomber bike racks. Ready-made mid-drive bikes cost more, and good ones cost ton more.
Retrospec makes The Beaumont Plus, definitely worth converting. Brooklyn bikes are even better. There are great Dutch style step throughs out there. You just have to look. They are significant more comfortable and stable than any fat bike (for instance). That is, for anyone commuting, doing rail trails or just hanging out on The MUP's
@@bjnslc oh, you would only find those available at weird shops like mine. Normally people get those on-line and have someone like me onvert them. I was working on a really cool 4 speed coaster brake just today. One of the very last U.S. built Treks. TBH, it kind of bothers me to convert it in to an e-bike because it is so unique.
Mid-drives work better for bad hills and heavy loads. (I have run both at some length.) In such conditions, mid-drives give significantly better performance regarding pulling power (for trailers, or if you’re heavy), hill climbing, and power consumption, especially with real distances.
Yeas, I was terribly disappointed that Greg Lamond went with hub drives on his new line. His market is people that out in the Mike's and th I ugh Johnny disagrees with me, that is where a torque sensing mod-drive really shines!
Well I’ll probably be hitting you up soon on advice & parts to switch my new hub drive himiway cobra to a mid drive. I’m not an idiot , very mechanically inclined but brand new to e mtn bikes . 100% sold on mid drive for better gearing, top speed & torq for the hills in my area . Thanks for you great advice/ video .
just got a SCOTT Sub Sport eRIDE 20. took it for a longer test ride when i got home, and broke the speed limit a few times. speed limit in city here is 50 kmh/31mph. and it's a 25kmh support speed
Thank You Johnny! Aging mountain biker, full-suspension bicycles, living in moraine territory and serious about off-road riding to the tune of ~1K km trail riding a year. Equally serious about chain cleaning and drive-line maintenance so I get a couple of seasons from a 9-speed chain and 3- 4 seasons from cassettes and chain rings. I do have the tools to measure the actual wear in the chain (which don't stretch). Really sounds like I ought to investigate a hub motor to assist with the black-diamond rides that get tougher every year, as I'm getting way too close to 70.
I'd say you want a mid-drive. The hub motor gets no gearing benefit from your MTB's drivetrain. A mid--drive motor does. Even an internally-geared hub motor is a one-speed motor. A mid-drive motor uses your gearing to operate with more torque and/or less power input than a hub motor.
@@bjnslc Sounds reasonable to me, and nicely put into words! I do know how to use the drive train without killing sprockets and chains and keeping that weight out of the wheel would make for better suspension when I think about it. I can still handle the drop-tube frames I have so can avoid the step-through for a few years yet. Likewise I still have the tools from the last bare-frame build so can tackle the build myself. Bloody cold and more snow coming, so can only dream about it for now.
Very fair comparison & good info for the new enthusiast. After much research and a long life to learn... I ride a mid-drive and drive a stick shift;) Wouldn't have it any other way.
@@Geoff9001 We were having a nice polite conversation about propper transmissions until you started using dirty words like sequential shift & CVT;) Both of those are missing an essential third pedal;) I have to admit that the tech for both transmissions is fascinating (and probably superior to manual) but it lacks soul and saps the fun out of a twisty mountain road.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Sorry for being impolite haha. Yeah I test drove a CVT and absolutely hated it myself. Its so boring and takes away the audio(revving) and visual (tach) queues from how hard your engine is working. My 05 Kia doesn't even have a tach but you hardly need it because you can hear when you need to up or downshift. After driving it for 5 miles I pretty much learned what gear is best for what situation. This kia is the $900 I ever spent. Going strong 2.5 years later! Automatic trans with 180k on the dash probably shot by now. Now hopefully I can get 30,000 miles out of this bbs02 :) Its funny how I've spent double on my e-bike conversion. Really considering selling it as I've daily driven a ebike before and its really nice except for the occasional time you need to go 40+ miles. Here in Houston, TX there at least a few times per month I need/want to go that far for specialty electronics stores and I think keeping my car for those trips would be nice. Looking into heavy duty bike trailers now..
I brought a cheap made ebike Hub motor a year back and at first it looked the rhing, for a cheap ebike it looked the works and for a short time enjoyed it. But it tattled and wire to battery - controller kept vibrating lose, could feel great vibration through handlebars when going over uneven roads and got to the stage I wasn't enjoying riding. I would say about 40% was cheap parts and 60% state of our roads. I used a dearer ebike someone had with a hub motor I borrowed and I would say only felt 20% better, I am not saying anything wrong about hub motors as I know a few people who have them and they love them and put up with the vibration of the ride but when one as cycled for years one likes the bike to feel natural a cycling is more then just getting to one place to another. After a while I thought I would take my hub ebike and convert it to an mid drive so brought a kit, I took all the cheap parts off front suspension, cable brakes and replaced with higher quality even put different handlebars and the only parts of the original cycle is frame, battery, back wheel and front tyre and inner tube, it as improved by over 80% as it doesn't vibrate or rattle and had no trouble battery disconnecting and feels as if one is riding a normal bike, it still cost me a £1,000 less then it would of cost buying a ready made mid drive. The person hub bike I used he gave it ago and couldn't believe the difference and is now thinking of converting his to a mid drive. I f yoiu using a cycle just to get from a to b then yes maybe a hub drive will do but if pleasure of cycling it as to be a mid drive for the more natural feeling of cycling.
Your logic is right gearing being better but what about sytems like Falco hub motors that allow the use of up to 11 gear hub systems so you would have all that gearing plus you would be able to use a triple crank giving 3 times the gearing of your Bafang motors that only have one gear at the crank. I have no knowledge about Falco other than what I have seen on their website so any incite would be appreciated. Also, I would be using it on a trike where a crank motor really puts a lot of weight up front (I have some experience with the Bafang motor on a trike).
I'm a bit offended. One advantage of a hub motor is that the bike still works if the chain breaks or won't stay on the cogs. If that happens, you would rather fix it at home, not have to tinker with the derailleur while you are on a trail or street somewhere; assuming you have the tools available and it isn't dark, raining, or otherwise miserable for a roadside breakdown. That goes double for a Type 2 pedal assist bike. Broken chain? Turn on the throttle and ride home on your remaining battery power. With a regular bicycle, or mid-drive e-bike, you're walking home or begging for a ride. Hub motors work fine for smaller motors that won't exceed the strength of the spokes. The only real advantage of a mid-drive is that the mid-drive allows one to use gearing to match the motor speed to the bicycle velocity; however, my Velotric Discover 1 has enough power to conquer the steepest hills by my home in southern California despite having a maximum short-term overload power of 850 watts, so I don't know what you need a mid-drive for. If you want to ride that fast on steep hills, get a motorcycle. The exception is if you're in one of those countries that limit e-bike power to just 250 watts, like Europe -- there's a reason many e-bikes in Europe are mid-drive designs.
I have a Bianchi road bike that's around 20yrs old. It has a 10spd Campy rear cassette. I was thinking of converting it with a mid drive. I believe it has a narrow chain. Would this work a mid drive? Would this chain be more likely to break?
Hey Johnny. My wife bought a cheap hub drive ebike on amazon. It worked well all summer. However towards the end of the summer her pedal assist intermittently stopped working. Her throttle still works but no go with the assist. It's a gotrax with the full aluminum wheels( wheels and spokes are one piece)
Johnny, my first car was a 1988 Honda Civic and stupid 18 yr old me let the oil dry. I bet that car would still be running if I would've given it minimal care. It was so easy to maintain.. I remember replacing the distributor cap with a quick youtube video and 15 min of time. Loved that car and it was so reliable
What about front hub vs rear hub and what about hub motors for open axle vs closed axle (axle through the frame). Are there good hub motors for a closed axle?
“Better” comparison than the last, but calling us hub peeps “old/don’t know anything about riding bikes” was a pretty big fail. People on YT like myself or Vortecks would disagree in that presumption and have years of experience. Overall I think you are an entertaining and likeable duder. I have actually recommended your channel in my videos a few times for people looking into mid-drive systems because I think you’re a good resource. I had my last hub ebike (52v, 35A, 30.5ah 1800W nominal) used for 20,000+ miles commuting and ebike touring stolen in October. I finally have all of my parts to build my new one this weekend. I went with a 8T GMAC geared hub motor and will film the build. The GMAC is the first major tech advancement in hub motors since inception. A geared motor with regenerative braking and 1/2 the weight of a DD motor but still capable of 2000W. I’m not anti mid-drive by any means. I pointed my mom (old and doesn’t ride much) to get a Luna Cycle Giant Roam 48V BBSHD (ludicrous upgrade) and she loves it.
How are you liking the GMAC? Thinking of switching to a high power hub for daily commutes (RH212? 52 or 72v).... I have a luna giant roam (52t front ring, Cycle Analyst&Phaserunner controller) ....its a ripper. Added Body float seatpost & 27.5x2.3" maxxis hookworms. Feels much more comfy😊 Anyways, wondering if torque sensing & Regen might be better for my daily riding, in spite of Vancouver's many hills
Hi Johnny nerd out. I like the channel, hope you do well on here. What’s the best /strongest ebike chain in your opinion? My one has stretched a bit and I’m hoping to get a new one before the rear cogs get wrecked. Currently I have a KMC m4100 10 speed 46… I’ve heard kmc are good (don’t know if that particular one is) the chain has done around 1500 miles. I’m in England so any relevant/worthwhile seller as well. All the best
@@AbuBakr1 yup look at my channel stock bbshd 1500w 52v 35ah custom battery and flying ,or look up bbshd 4kw and you will see an accelleration video 0 -91kmh in one gear 0-70 kmh 7sec,0-40kmh 2sec
Johnny I have a question for you. When I was a kid there was 3 and 5 speed sturmey Archer hubs. Could they be used with a mid drive motor system. Are they strong enough to hold up to the torque providing you use them properly. I thought it would be a good solution for chain positioning
yes, johnny has a video on internally geared hubs, 3-5 speed sturmey archer gear hubs are considered heavy duty and can handle the torque of a BBSHD. shifting under load may be a bit sketchy so be sure to lay off the throttle for half a second when shifting to avoid more wear on the gear hub
The Sturmey Archer 3 speed is typically very reliable and simple but the 5 speed never had the same reliability as far as I remember and much more complex internally. So I would of thought the 3 speed relatively safe but the five speed would be better used in combination with a front hub motor. It's really down to application and many variables though, power of the mid-drive motor, weight of rider, how many hills, how powerful the rider is etc.
I was looking for a middrive bike with a trotttle function but could not find one. So, I bought a hub drive bike and am happy so far with it! And looking on how it would be if one was to add a trottle function to a mid drive, the modifications, and the safety issues etc. I can understand why they did not make it yet.
Wtf you talking ,bbshd throtle only with 52v 35ah custom battery samsung 35e cells 50miles range of hard riding,look at my channel throtlle only drifts and wheelies and its mid drive bbshd over 10000km o the clock
@@madmanwheelies6157 I did not find any mid-drive's w/ throttle at any store on oahu and I really wanted a throttle function. But found alot of hub drives did have the throttle function so I got the Aventon Level which has a throttle funciton. And the level being my first ebike I am very happy w/ the distance and the assistance it gives compared to not having any electric power!:) But some time in the future I will get a mid-drive conversion or otherwise.
@@jayare6872 i have bought mine from aliexpress bafang bbshd motor and have a friend who builds batteries ,have rockshox sektor 150mm fork waiting for 220magura disc and then gonna put gatorbrake 8 piston on front and 203mm magura mt5 rear ,with ft swiss fr560 rim with dt swiss 350 e bike hub thats final mods and its ready for asi bac 855 external controler to give 3kw+ of power 😎😎maybe renthal fatbars and stem and litlle fancy bits
Hi Johnny thanks for the info, wondering if you can recommend what would be a solution if I wanted an ebike that can ride nicely on the road to go 20-30 ks to get somewhere, that can haul a loaded trailer, that can function well on pedal only for if there was no power, and is rugged enough to go across country if roads were blocked and fast enough outrun hangry guys post apocalypse. Oh and that looks nice too - Too much to ask? Curious to see what you say :-)
Isn't there an available electronic display, even just two daylight visible LEDs, which indicate the need for a shift up or down based upon the current draw of the mid drive motor? If not, there should be.
And, add a shift sensor. (First and current, in-process builds in my case.) As for load, some displays (860c, especially) give an indication of load when under throttle, and to a lesser degree, while pedaling. General idea is to use the gears as if *you* were doing the pedaling unaided. Electrification helps when you’ve got too much labor or distance to cover unaided, especially when you’re older and paying the price (in terms of health problems and infirmities) for “burning the candle at both ends” due - largely - to then-undiagnosed disabilities. Being labeled as morally deficient when I could not keep up did not help.
so as a 30 year old who hasn't ridden a bike since I started High School and only casually I should look more at Hub motors than Mid Drives for my first ebike?
Im an experienced rider. I prefer the hub drive. Dont really care for gears, its illegal to ride any faster, than 28mph anyway. I bought the cheapest geared hub drive kit from aliexpress. (Sorry JohnnyNerdOut) Its been staying strong for around 15000 miles so far. I love it, its quiet(less so than a direct drive, but a lot more quiet, than a mid drive) powerful enough for me (750w) and the range lets me go full out on it for an hour straight. Biggest plus vs a mid drive over that time has been the noise. Hub drives are waaaaaay more quiet, even the geared hub ones. Biggest minus? Going uphill (that is literally the only time i pedal) I have geared hub drive for compactness and weight saving.
In my experience direct drive hubs are quietest, then the bbs02 mid drive, then bbshd mid drive, then geared hub motors, then all the other mid drives (cyclone, CYC etc) All motors are different depending on manufacturer but in my experience Bafang mid drives are quieter than any geared hub motor I have ridden.
@@JohnnyNerdOut I agree with everything but with the mid drive, the noise doesn't come from the motor, its the chain. My geared front hub drive really doesn't make all that much noise although a direct drive would be quieter. Perhaps mine is actually more quieter than the average geared hub drive or something but im more affected by rattling of stuff on my bike than that. But the chain noise of a bbs02 at full speed, that would be unbearable for those amounts of time.
Johnny, I want to convert my store bought hub motor ebike to a mid drive (once my warranty expires) but I managed to find everything except the rear wheel replacement. having a bit of difficulty finding a (please don't laugh) 20x4 inch cassette and disk break ready rear wheel. Yes, it is all aesthetics but I like how comfortable my bike is. Any suggestions, truly welcome.
Wow that is an interesting conversion, you need to do a youtube video of what it turns out like. I'd have been tempted to keep the rear motor hub and create a weird mid-drive setup with rear hub motor just to minimise chain wear when climbing hills etc. You probably can get a fat bike freehub hub and lace it to that wheel. As ever its a specialist part though so you'll probably pay through the nose compared to more easily obtainable parts. I've had past projects in mind only to find out that the price of the parts I wanted was prohibitive so I decided it just wasn't worth the investment. I'd personally try to copy the characteristics of the bike by getting a used acoustic bike that was similar and then fit a mid-drive motor it could work out cheaper plus you could compare the bikes and sell one of them on after deciding which is better long term.
For delivery around the city, hub drive any day. Lots of stop-starts between traffic lights, no time to shift gears if you want to get that early jump to cross the red light before traffic starts, the one-gear throttle-controlled hub motor does wonders, and puts no strain on the chain. I've literally seen other delivery drivers with mid-drives have to downshift, losing that critical second or two before they could get going from the light, sometimes too late to get that early jump through red. I just thumb the throttle and speed off. That being said, you do need a good powered hub motor for that kind of peppyness. 1000w minimum (I got a 1500w one). And yes, it's less efficient and less torque up hills, but for me the tradeoff works. Obviously not street-legal (especially here in Europe), but who cares. Put a 250W sticker on the hub (rip the 1500w one XD ), drive low-key around cops, and nobody pays you a 2nd glance. Very easy to get around the dumb rules.
@@subjekt5577 And pay for registration and insurance? Fuck that :P If it looks like a bike, drives like one, and has a nice big 250w sticker on it, it's a bike :)
Am 65 and a med drive motor is what I want 1000w full suspension 27.5. I live on the top of a hill and the ⛱ beach is right down the hill about 10 blocks down. Where I have a beach house 🏠. Right on the sand.
hey,ive got a question,ive installed a bbs02 on my bike yesterday,and ive noticed a problem.Whenever i put assistance level more than 6 sometimes,the battery just stops giving power and when i look at the display it tells me "0%" but then slowly gets back up.do you have any idea why?
You have a weak battery or a battery that does not meet the minimum requirements for the BBS02. The BBS02 can pull a maximum of 25A, so a pack capable of a minimum of 50A output is required to be safe.
just checked my battery is normally able to continuasly provide 28A of continious discharge current.I guess this is what happens when something looks too good to be true
Also - some sellers tend to rate their products “optimistically” - as in they say it will manage a given current level over a long term, but the truth is about half of what they say it is (and sometimes less yet!) Namely, if your motor can draw 30 amps at full stretch, you need a BMS that can source *at least* 60.
You know what I don't like? Rim Brakes on an Ebike. I got into the worst bike accident I've ever been in on Thursday at 4:30PM and my friend and I both agreed that bike should go back to normal because it didn't even come with the front rim brake that we added it on. Not only does it only have Rim Brakes but ones that aren't nature. The only factory Ebikes I see with Rim Brakes on them are ones that have 350Watts. I am reusing the system on a new bike with disc brakes and having to buy a new set of wheels for the bike that got into an accident. The front wheel which is the front hub motor survived and the rear one didn't. Mirror that was already messed up broke. Pedal assist which is cheap broke too. Thumb throttle survived and still works but am still getting a new one because I am missing a screw from the accident.
I wouldn't consider a retail e-bike with rim brakes. The brakes are probably the least of your worries. I converted an old hardtail bike with V-brakes. They're plenty powerful (at least if I don't get the rims wet). Good disc brakes are the best choice, but there are bad ones...especially at the lowest price points.
Four-pot disks can save your behind, especially in panic stops or on long downhills with a trailer full of groceries. I have had both of those things happen to me, and I swear by those disks.
Great video. My question is when you say shifting gears on a mid drive, im not sure what that means because I have 11 sprockets on my cassette and 9 on my mid drive. I have noticed my chain getting hewed up a little...I usually ride on gear 3 on the motor and I switch gears as needed on my rear cassette. Am I supposes to down shit the motor and the cassette or just the cassette or just the motor or both? Thanx in Advance..Stay Safe
The 9 is not gears that's just the setting for how fast the motor spins at top speed. You get put that down the 5 or even 3 in the settings. For example on setting 1 out of 9 the motor will cut off at for example 10mph and 2 would cut of at let's say 14mph. Cause remember you don't want the motor to be spinning fast all the time and u want you pedalling to match the speed its turning. Think of the the speed setting as like a throttle 5 would be halfway and 9 would be full. When he says shifting gears he means on the bike manually not the ebike stuff.
The way these mid drives work bbs02 and hd is because they have no torque sensor(some bike have this to see how much force you put on the pedals and use that info to dial the speed as you pedal.) The motor just checks if you pedaling or not simply 2 states pedaling or no pedaling. It does by having magnets to detect it. If you pedal the motor slowly cranks up to a certain speed this is where the assist levels come into play the 1-9 you mentioned. You can also program this with right cable. And so the actual gears on the bike itself is more important if you were on a hill let's say.
I have mine set to 5 assist levels and mostly stay on 4 but use the throttle exclusively. I don't change gear often but if I use pedal assist I normally just start at level 1 pedal till that maxes and slowly increase it if I needed to increase speed I only change gears if theres a hill really.
@@navidmehdi6 I keep mine on assist 1 and just keep changing gears like I did on a non Ebike..I switch to assist 3 for hills and windy days here in Florida
So are there other factors that affect how fast you will wear away your drive train? For example, I live in illinois which is the 2nd flatest state behind Florida, also I don't plan on getting a throttle. Would it last longer? I'm the exact bad example you said in the other video when it comes to gears lol. I have a 7 speed and leave it at 7 and change the power of the hub motor when I need more torque or speed. I was considering getting a mid drive with a internal gear hub mainly so that it's a little easier to start again after stopping (by being able to shift gears when not moving). But I doubt I'd be very good at slowly shifting back up to the highest gear. Do you think I'd be better off sticking with the hub or do you think in this specific case I might not eat through chains that much faster?
@BJ Nicholls as in is my example hypothetical? No its real. I currently haven't broke a chain yet. It's been a little over a year and I think I've done close to 1000 miles. I think even when I go out 10+ miles the max difference in elevation is 60ft.
I found that using a BBS-HD meant not *needing* to shift much as a rule. When my knees started hurting especially bad on some longer rides - typically, after about 25 miles or so - I would put it in the lowest gear I could find in the bike (second from bottom) and just cruise along in the low teens. Supposedly the motor’s most efficient when it’s turning at a good rate, and I generally don’t go much over 15 mph except in emergencies.
I am wondering why we never see any hub motors designed with an internal geared hub integrated into the design? I'm no expert on the subject but it looks doable, albeit more complicated. Has anyone else thought of this or knows why it isn't viable? The only real roadblock I can see, is that possibly internal geared hubs may not be robust enough to reliably handle the stress - or that the failure of either component would require the replacement of both. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.
@@JohnnyNerdOut Wow - that's too bad. I was hoping that - since geared hub motors have one geared set, they could probably fit one or two more. I guess that assumption was inaccurate. Thanks for the reply!
@@waynecooper6124 One of the huge benefits of a hub motor is their simplicity, a direct drive hub is literally a motor as your hub there are no moving parts at all except for the bearings on the axle this can give them amazing reliability and long lifespan. Geared hub motors as you say have a planetary reduction system to increase torque but reduce rotation speed and a clutch mechanism for freewheeling. A little more complex but still very simple compared to mid-drive hence the very low pricing. i think it would destroy the simplicity and reliability of hub motors to add gears but as stated there was a 2 gear system but from what i saw in the forums it was not as reliable as a typical hub motor due to the extra complexity.
Pros and cons,mid drive BBSHD bafang usually difficult to handle in traffic have to be treated with respect,chain and derailleur killer but for going up steep hills really fantastic. Hub motors more reliable but unless you get a 3500w hub and a big 🔋 battery ...after 5 chains and 1 derailleur on the BbsHd I would go back to buy a bigger hub and a big battery,more reliable, in any case good video Johnny but as for mid drive until they sort out a titanium chain or put a internal gearbox with a one speed gog on the rear hub then I would go back to a hub. The mid drive motor is not really reliable enough.
I've done many many miles on my BBS02 at 25 amps....never broke a chain, derailleur or any teeth, and reprogrammed with Karl's special sauce is absolutely butter smooth on throttle.
Ran a BBS-HD, and had zero trouble with chains, derailleur, etc. I was pulling a trailer, and riding longish distances. Only real problems I had was getting my trousers caught in the chain and then getting stranded - until it was stolen in March 2021!
Hubs have the ability to be way more powerful than mid drives. a qs273 will destroy any mid drive that comes its way because it can handle any amount of power you throw at it. on 72v 40ah 14,400w I pull 74mph with insane acceloration. Mid drives just cant compare to the limitless power high qualify hubs can handle. I know guys that run double the power I do on the same plat form.
If your into REAL preformance. Go highpower hubdrive. 3k 5w 8kw 10w 14w all the way to 32400w Hubs can handle any of it. Look into qs205 or qs273. Focus more on continuous amps of battery and controller than anything. With the right power you will smash any middrive. (I pull 74mph on qs273) If you want a lowpower ebike thats more of an actual bike and fast for its limits go for a middrive.
ps qs also recently released the first high power 8k mid drive motor. I've heard at REAL power mid drives brake chains like toothpicks and actually manage to be slower than the hub (something about it not being able to push the weight of high power bikes)
Power is not multiplied by gears. Gears change speed and torque in proportion to each other. No power is gained, only lost through gears. To patch a tube on the side of the road, use a rope to hoist the bike up a pole or tree. You gotta learn a couple of rope concepts though. I would rather mess with a heavy rear wheel than a nasty chain. If wattage output is the same, the performance would be the same. It cannot be night and day if both mid and hub dyno the same. If they do not dyno the same, they are not the same power. A $100 direct drive hub motor can eat 7 kW with ease. A $100 hub motor pushed to its thermal limit will power wheelie. It is not like an internal combustion car with gears, electric motors do not work the same as piston engines in cars.
Maybe a better way to think about it is to think of it as leverage. Using leverage gives you a more powerful result using the same power at the source 👍
I knew I’d get some flack for that comment. I just meant that a hub motor is way easier for someone needing motorized transport vs a mid drive. Many people are on the cusp of needing motor transport and Ebikes are a super viable option for that need.
You wouldn't want a mid-drive on a wheel chair, mid-drive motors are much more complicated often with vinyl plastic gears and cogs and sometimes belts, they need to be made exceptionally well to be reliable and still many fail prematurely. You really don't want someone reliant on the motor functioning correctly to go mid-drive. Simplicity in engineering equals safety even if some parts of the specification could be improved with mid-drive motor application i.e. maybe climbing very steep pavements.
The preformance difference is irrelevant when you don't have low power bikes. at a cetain point you literally cant even use a mid drive. My qs273 can handle alot more than any mid drive can by far. The most powerful mid ive seen is 3000w. It cant compare to a 8000w motor that can handle 32400w of power. If you want a low power bike then a mid drive will out preform but the power hubs can handle will far surpass mid drives and be insanely faster.
Not my intention at all. I just want people to make informed decisions. Way too many people buying equipment that is not intended for their needs and purposes and ends up collecting dust. Yes, if you make an omelette you have to crack a few eggs. My intention is not to belittle anyone. Pardon my communication style.
I am 74 and not insulted at all. I have been an avid road rider for over 50 years. I put thousands of miles on my road bike. But now, I am partially disabled and have limited use of my right leg. I chose to get an e-bike with a hub drive and cadence sensor. It’s better than sitting on the couch.
Greetings Sir…
Must tell you I have had SOOO Much fun building my bike.
Thank you so much for your expert advice and for the components I got from you.
Everything has worked out great!
You rock Sir!
“Madness”
Gray Beard, what bike did you convert and which motor? Thanks for commenting.
@@happycamper5900 Jamis Dakar, BBSHD, 52V, 17.5ah.
Great video I cycle to work & back every day I don’t drive been looking at hub motors but after seeing this video I obviously need a mid drive instead thanks for the video it really helped 💯
💯 right changing a flat on a hub motor is pain difficult but i did fix flat..
I had bought my used bbs02 preinstall on a big 22 frame bike. After like 2 years I finally swapped it onto a 18 inch frame and it feels so much better. I'm a small guy as well. The motor didn't fit in the bottom bracket I had to use a dremmel to slowly thin it out. I also thinned out some of the paint on the bbs02 as well (maybe that bad idk). But it the yeah took me 2 whole days to do because I also had to swap all the other parts like the drive train as well from my first bike onto the 18 inch frame. I also have a triangle battery and it fits perfectly. Tbh I wanted to maybe get a 16 inch frame but because of the battery I had to pick the 18.
LOL. I did my first conversion after watching that video and of course I bought a mid drive and loved it. Took me a while to realize that since I do food delivery and prefer single speed bikes a hub motor was just fine for me. If it wasn’t for the hills here 😆😆😆
First of all I live in the UK I was born driving a drink shift I've had 3 hub motor e-bikes and since I've got the mid-drive I always look forward to getting on that bike I understand the mid-drive plus I don't go hard on the crank and I have a spare KMC Chain and innertubes so I don't get cort short Johnny 😅
Man Johnny I'm so grateful for this vid!!! I had seen the previous one comparing the two where you called hub motors junk. So being 67 & not riding for over 30 years I began searching for mid drives. But after seeing this one I ordered this monster hub ebike this morning, or rather backordered one. It's a Kepler 52V Electric Fat Tire Bike with great specs (to dumb me). Ever hear of them? There's a cool vid on here by The Junker test driving one & it sure can git it! He said it's great for steep hills too. Appreciate any views you have on this one. Thanks.
I’ve checked those out & I think you will be happy
@@davestevens4263 Thanks, & yes I am happy with it. At full battery it'll do 40 mph, & at 50% it'll do 20 mph. I've gotten 40 miles out of a full charge with pedal assist, & 20-25 miles on throttle only.
Hey Jonny I have a Stromer st1 and a gazelle Mondeo T9 I know the stromer cost more then the gazelle. But I have noticed is the stromer does better in the snow I think that hud motor weight in the back rim gives it better traction. I still like my gazelle.
One thing I'd add. If you want a step through bike, you probably will need to go with a hub motor complete bike. Good step-through conventional bikes worthy of conversion are very few and far between. There are folks who know how to ride a bike, but for whatever reason have difficulty with the range of motion needed to mount a conventional bike. However, If you're in this group - see if a dropper seat post can do the trick for you before you go researching step-through bikes. One other thing. Compared to a ready-made affordable hub motor bike, a retrofit bike using any conversion motor will be tens of pounds lighter. A lighter bike is easier to lift and to transport without investing in bomber bike racks. Ready-made mid-drive bikes cost more, and good ones cost ton more.
Retrospec makes The Beaumont Plus, definitely worth converting. Brooklyn bikes are even better. There are great Dutch style step throughs out there. You just have to look. They are significant more comfortable and stable than any fat bike (for instance). That is, for anyone commuting, doing rail trails or just hanging out on The MUP's
@@MHH3180 In my experience and in this area, you'll have to look a look hard and for a long time. I'm sure they're more common regionally.
@@bjnslc oh, you would only find those available at weird shops like mine. Normally people get those on-line and have someone like me onvert them. I was working on a really cool 4 speed coaster brake just today. One of the very last U.S. built Treks. TBH, it kind of bothers me to convert it in to an e-bike because it is so unique.
@@bjnslc oh yeah,you will only see them at really weird shops like mine. Generally, people order those two brands on-line.
Trek makes a step through mid drive
Mid-drives work better for bad hills and heavy loads. (I have run both at some length.)
In such conditions, mid-drives give significantly better performance regarding pulling power (for trailers, or if you’re heavy), hill climbing, and power consumption, especially with real distances.
Yeas, I was terribly disappointed that Greg Lamond went with hub drives on his new line. His market is people that out in the Mike's and th I ugh Johnny disagrees with me, that is where a torque sensing mod-drive really shines!
So if you're heavy, have a ways to travel, and face some hilly terrain, middrive shines. That's exactly my situation in Petaluma California. Thanks.
Can't disagree with anything you say. Good, balanced analysis of the difference between the two systmes.
Well I’ll probably be hitting you up soon on advice & parts to switch my new hub drive himiway cobra to a mid drive. I’m not an idiot , very mechanically inclined but brand new to e mtn bikes . 100% sold on mid drive for better gearing, top speed & torq for the hills in my area . Thanks for you great advice/ video .
I have no problem, climbing hills with my hub motor but I like the video. Thanks for sharing.
You must have slight hills. Hub motors do fine on gradual hills. It’s when you get into mountain hills or off road is when you run into trouble.
Thanks! Now you can tell us what e-bikes are absolutely the best in your professional opinion.
Thanks Johnny! Can you do a vídeo how to re-grease the middrive mottor? Thanks!
You gave the exact reason Bike shops refuse to work on an Ebike,unless you purchased it from said Bike shop.
just got a SCOTT Sub Sport eRIDE 20. took it for a longer test ride when i got home, and broke the speed limit a few times. speed limit in city here is 50 kmh/31mph. and it's a 25kmh support speed
30K.... way to go Johnny!
Thank You Johnny! Aging mountain biker, full-suspension bicycles, living in moraine territory and serious about off-road riding to the tune of ~1K km trail riding a year. Equally serious about chain cleaning and drive-line maintenance so I get a couple of seasons from a 9-speed chain and 3- 4 seasons from cassettes and chain rings. I do have the tools to measure the actual wear in the chain (which don't stretch). Really sounds like I ought to investigate a hub motor to assist with the black-diamond rides that get tougher every year, as I'm getting way too close to 70.
I'd say you want a mid-drive. The hub motor gets no gearing benefit from your MTB's drivetrain. A mid--drive motor does. Even an internally-geared hub motor is a one-speed motor. A mid-drive motor uses your gearing to operate with more torque and/or less power input than a hub motor.
@@bjnslc Sounds reasonable to me, and nicely put into words! I do know how to use the drive train without killing sprockets and chains and keeping that weight out of the wheel would make for better suspension when I think about it. I can still handle the drop-tube frames I have so can avoid the step-through for a few years yet. Likewise I still have the tools from the last bare-frame build so can tackle the build myself. Bloody cold and more snow coming, so can only dream about it for now.
Mid drive is better for you, torque sensor required for real MTB experience.
"power multiplication" that's an interesting concept you should patent it!😁
Very fair comparison & good info for the new enthusiast.
After much research and a long life to learn...
I ride a mid-drive and drive a stick shift;) Wouldn't have it any other way.
Exact same here. 5 speed stick is so much better of a drive than automatic!
@@Geoff9001 Old school👍. The norm now is 6 speeds (I've even seen 7). Mine is a 5 as well;)
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Ive seen sequential shift/autos up to 9 speeds! CVT is technically unlimited speeds within a range
@@Geoff9001 We were having a nice polite conversation about propper transmissions until you started using dirty words like sequential shift & CVT;) Both of those are missing an essential third pedal;)
I have to admit that the tech for both transmissions is fascinating (and probably superior to manual) but it lacks soul and saps the fun out of a twisty mountain road.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Sorry for being impolite haha. Yeah I test drove a CVT and absolutely hated it myself. Its so boring and takes away the audio(revving) and visual (tach) queues from how hard your engine is working. My 05 Kia doesn't even have a tach but you hardly need it because you can hear when you need to up or downshift. After driving it for 5 miles I pretty much learned what gear is best for what situation. This kia is the $900 I ever spent. Going strong 2.5 years later! Automatic trans with 180k on the dash probably shot by now.
Now hopefully I can get 30,000 miles out of this bbs02 :) Its funny how I've spent double on my e-bike conversion. Really considering selling it as I've daily driven a ebike before and its really nice except for the occasional time you need to go 40+ miles. Here in Houston, TX there at least a few times per month I need/want to go that far for specialty electronics stores and I think keeping my car for those trips would be nice. Looking into heavy duty bike trailers now..
Johnny you're awesome!
Tell me about changing tires on rear hubs! *Argh!*
I needed to make a special lifter tool to make it less of a nightmare!
I brought a cheap made ebike Hub motor a year back and at first it looked the rhing, for a cheap ebike it looked the works and for a short time enjoyed it. But it tattled and wire to battery - controller kept vibrating lose, could feel great vibration through handlebars when going over uneven roads and got to the stage I wasn't enjoying riding. I would say about 40% was cheap parts and 60% state of our roads. I used a dearer ebike someone had with a hub motor I borrowed and I would say only felt 20% better, I am not saying anything wrong about hub motors as I know a few people who have them and they love them and put up with the vibration of the ride but when one as cycled for years one likes the bike to feel natural a cycling is more then just getting to one place to another.
After a while I thought I would take my hub ebike and convert it to an mid drive so brought a kit, I took all the cheap parts off front suspension, cable brakes and replaced with higher quality even put different handlebars and the only parts of the original cycle is frame, battery, back wheel and front tyre and inner tube, it as improved by over 80% as it doesn't vibrate or rattle and had no trouble battery disconnecting and feels as if one is riding a normal bike, it still cost me a £1,000 less then it would of cost buying a ready made mid drive. The person hub bike I used he gave it ago and couldn't believe the difference and is now thinking of converting his to a mid drive. I f yoiu using a cycle just to get from a to b then yes maybe a hub drive will do but if pleasure of cycling it as to be a mid drive for the more natural feeling of cycling.
Great, informative video. What about making a video on Bafang mid-drive programming and shedding light on that?
There is a link to an amazing article on my program cable page 👍
@@JohnnyNerdOut 17:49
Johneeeeee! Thanks for the tips. I have a 2012 Giant Talon 29er. Is it worth converting it to a street legal mid drive ebike?
i think belt-driven hub drivetrains are the future for mid drive bikes. so much more reliable and longer lasting than a chain.
Your logic is right gearing being better but what about sytems like Falco hub motors that allow the use of up to 11 gear hub systems so you would have all that gearing plus you would be able to use a triple crank giving 3 times the gearing of your Bafang motors that only have one gear at the crank. I have no knowledge about Falco other than what I have seen on their website so any incite would be appreciated. Also, I would be using it on a trike where a crank motor really puts a lot of weight up front (I have some experience with the Bafang motor on a trike).
I'm a bit offended. One advantage of a hub motor is that the bike still works if the chain breaks or won't stay on the cogs. If that happens, you would rather fix it at home, not have to tinker with the derailleur while you are on a trail or street somewhere; assuming you have the tools available and it isn't dark, raining, or otherwise miserable for a roadside breakdown. That goes double for a Type 2 pedal assist bike. Broken chain? Turn on the throttle and ride home on your remaining battery power. With a regular bicycle, or mid-drive e-bike, you're walking home or begging for a ride.
Hub motors work fine for smaller motors that won't exceed the strength of the spokes. The only real advantage of a mid-drive is that the mid-drive allows one to use gearing to match the motor speed to the bicycle velocity; however, my Velotric Discover 1 has enough power to conquer the steepest hills by my home in southern California despite having a maximum short-term overload power of 850 watts, so I don't know what you need a mid-drive for. If you want to ride that fast on steep hills, get a motorcycle.
The exception is if you're in one of those countries that limit e-bike power to just 250 watts, like Europe -- there's a reason many e-bikes in Europe are mid-drive designs.
I have a Bianchi road bike that's around 20yrs old. It has a 10spd Campy rear cassette. I was thinking of converting it with a mid drive. I believe it has a narrow chain. Would this work a mid drive? Would this chain be more likely to break?
mid drive lets you use hub gears or a CVT, if you're into that.
Hey Johnny. My wife bought a cheap hub drive ebike on amazon. It worked well all summer. However towards the end of the summer her pedal assist intermittently stopped working. Her throttle still works but no go with the assist. It's a gotrax with the full aluminum wheels( wheels and spokes are one piece)
Check the sensor on the crank. Might be broken.
@@JohnnyNerdOut thanks!
The chain link of the bbhd motor doesn't a cover. Is it dangerous?
Johnny, my first car was a 1988 Honda Civic and stupid 18 yr old me let the oil dry. I bet that car would still be running if I would've given it minimal care. It was so easy to maintain.. I remember replacing the distributor cap with a quick youtube video and 15 min of time. Loved that car and it was so reliable
Hi.
How much is life of a 250w rear hub motor?
How long can it last approximately?
What about front hub vs rear hub and what about hub motors for open axle vs closed axle (axle through the frame). Are there good hub motors for a closed axle?
thanks very helpful
“Better” comparison than the last, but calling us hub peeps “old/don’t know anything about riding bikes” was a pretty big fail. People on YT like myself or Vortecks would disagree in that presumption and have years of experience.
Overall I think you are an entertaining and likeable duder. I have actually recommended your channel in my videos a few times for people looking into mid-drive systems because I think you’re a good resource.
I had my last hub ebike (52v, 35A, 30.5ah 1800W nominal) used for 20,000+ miles commuting and ebike touring stolen in October. I finally have all of my parts to build my new one this weekend. I went with a 8T GMAC geared hub motor and will film the build. The GMAC is the first major tech advancement in hub motors since inception. A geared motor with regenerative braking and 1/2 the weight of a DD motor but still capable of 2000W.
I’m not anti mid-drive by any means. I pointed my mom (old and doesn’t ride much) to get a Luna Cycle Giant Roam 48V BBSHD (ludicrous upgrade) and she loves it.
Dang dude, sorry to hear about your bike. Seriously 😒
How are you liking the GMAC? Thinking of switching to a high power hub for daily commutes (RH212? 52 or 72v)....
I have a luna giant roam (52t front ring, Cycle Analyst&Phaserunner controller)
....its a ripper. Added Body float seatpost & 27.5x2.3" maxxis hookworms. Feels much more comfy😊
Anyways, wondering if torque sensing & Regen might be better for my daily riding, in spite of Vancouver's many hills
I just wish the bbs02 or hd had torque sense or a way to add it.
I have seen videos claiming the 750w motors are the same as the 1000w motors and up. And the diff is just the power pack. Is that true
I got a question it’s a strange one but can you electrify a Surrey bike with a mid drive of course cause I’m not a bafoon?
What happen with the Versys?
How about a mid drive and a hub motor in the front.
Hi Johnny nerd out.
I like the channel, hope you do well on here.
What’s the best /strongest ebike chain in your opinion? My one has stretched a bit and I’m hoping to get a new one before the rear cogs get wrecked.
Currently I have a KMC m4100 10 speed 46…
I’ve heard kmc are good (don’t know if that particular one is) the chain has done around 1500 miles. I’m in England so any relevant/worthwhile seller as well.
All the best
Unless your chain is made of rubber, it won't stretch.
Great advice 👍💯.. UK London 👍.
BBSHD with asi bac 855 and 72v 25ah battery 4300watt of pure mid drive shreding power 1.st gear 45mph 3.third you are gone 4. Up to rocket to moon 😎💪🏻
Wtf are you serious? 🤣
@@AbuBakr1 yup look at my channel stock bbshd 1500w 52v 35ah custom battery and flying ,or look up bbshd 4kw and you will see an accelleration video 0 -91kmh in one gear 0-70 kmh 7sec,0-40kmh 2sec
Johnny I have a question for you. When I was a kid there was 3 and 5 speed sturmey Archer hubs. Could they be used with a mid drive motor system. Are they strong enough to hold up to the torque providing you use them properly. I thought it would be a good solution for chain positioning
yes, johnny has a video on internally geared hubs, 3-5 speed sturmey archer gear hubs are considered heavy duty and can handle the torque of a BBSHD. shifting under load may be a bit sketchy so be sure to lay off the throttle for half a second when shifting to avoid more wear on the gear hub
link is here: czcams.com/video/VRoucNtcfDQ/video.html
The Sturmey Archer 3 speed is typically very reliable and simple but the 5 speed never had the same reliability as far as I remember and much more complex internally. So I would of thought the 3 speed relatively safe but the five speed would be better used in combination with a front hub motor. It's really down to application and many variables though, power of the mid-drive motor, weight of rider, how many hills, how powerful the rider is etc.
I was looking for a middrive bike with a trotttle function but could not find one. So, I bought a hub drive bike and am happy so far with it! And looking on how it would be if one was to add a trottle function to a mid drive, the modifications, and the safety issues etc. I can understand why they did not make it yet.
Wtf you talking ,bbshd throtle only with 52v 35ah custom battery samsung 35e cells 50miles range of hard riding,look at my channel throtlle only drifts and wheelies and its mid drive bbshd over 10000km o the clock
@@madmanwheelies6157
Awsome demonstration of a conversion kit capabilities dude! :)
@@jayare6872 thanks man🙂,what hub have you bought,why cant you fit a throtlle 🤔
@@madmanwheelies6157
I did not find any mid-drive's w/ throttle at any store on oahu and I really wanted a throttle function. But found alot of hub drives did have the throttle function so I got the Aventon Level which has a throttle funciton. And the level being my first ebike I am very happy w/ the distance and the assistance it gives compared to not having any electric power!:) But some time in the future I will get a mid-drive conversion or otherwise.
@@jayare6872 i have bought mine from aliexpress bafang bbshd motor and have a friend who builds batteries ,have rockshox sektor 150mm fork waiting for 220magura disc and then gonna put gatorbrake 8 piston on front and 203mm magura mt5 rear ,with ft swiss fr560 rim with dt swiss 350 e bike hub thats final mods and its ready for asi bac 855 external controler to give 3kw+ of power 😎😎maybe renthal fatbars and stem and litlle fancy bits
Is it possible to have a HUB and a Midd in one bike?? 😜🤪
Hi Johnny thanks for the info, wondering if you can recommend what would be a solution if I wanted an ebike that can ride nicely on the road to go 20-30 ks to get somewhere, that can haul a loaded trailer, that can function well on pedal only for if there was no power, and is rugged enough to go across country if roads were blocked and fast enough outrun hangry guys post apocalypse. Oh and that looks nice too - Too much to ask? Curious to see what you say :-)
BBSHD mid drive
Damn.. I just got the KBO Hurricane.. and of course found your channel afterwards. Curios, is it possible to convert that to mid drive?
Yes!
But CAN YOU BUY a mid drive bike with dual suspension for offroad and trail riding for less than $2000?????
Isn't there an available electronic display, even just two daylight visible LEDs, which indicate the need for a shift up or down based upon the current draw of the mid drive motor? If not, there should be.
IMO you want to shift on RPM, not power. You should always shift under light load to avoid drivetrain breakage and undue wear.
And, add a shift sensor. (First and current, in-process builds in my case.)
As for load, some displays (860c, especially) give an indication of load when under throttle, and to a lesser degree, while pedaling.
General idea is to use the gears as if *you* were doing the pedaling unaided.
Electrification helps when you’ve got too much labor or distance to cover unaided, especially when you’re older and paying the price (in terms of health problems and infirmities) for “burning the candle at both ends” due - largely - to then-undiagnosed disabilities.
Being labeled as morally deficient when I could not keep up did not help.
What do you have for sale
so as a 30 year old who hasn't ridden a bike since I started High School and only casually I should look more at Hub motors than Mid Drives for my first ebike?
Would an internal gear hub make it easier for someone who's new to bikes to not destroy chains?
Probably yes. Especially if using a single speed chain
thx for this
have you ever made a vid on handle bars. comfort bars
Not yet 🧐
I switched to hub motor after 2 years because I was tired of buying a new chain every 2 months
Im an experienced rider. I prefer the hub drive. Dont really care for gears, its illegal to ride any faster, than 28mph anyway. I bought the cheapest geared hub drive kit from aliexpress. (Sorry JohnnyNerdOut) Its been staying strong for around 15000 miles so far. I love it, its quiet(less so than a direct drive, but a lot more quiet, than a mid drive) powerful enough for me (750w) and the range lets me go full out on it for an hour straight. Biggest plus vs a mid drive over that time has been the noise. Hub drives are waaaaaay more quiet, even the geared hub ones. Biggest minus? Going uphill (that is literally the only time i pedal)
I have geared hub drive for compactness and weight saving.
In my experience direct drive hubs are quietest, then the bbs02 mid drive, then bbshd mid drive, then geared hub motors, then all the other mid drives (cyclone, CYC etc)
All motors are different depending on manufacturer but in my experience Bafang mid drives are quieter than any geared hub motor I have ridden.
@@JohnnyNerdOut I agree with everything but with the mid drive, the noise doesn't come from the motor, its the chain. My geared front hub drive really doesn't make all that much noise although a direct drive would be quieter. Perhaps mine is actually more quieter than the average geared hub drive or something but im more affected by rattling of stuff on my bike than that. But the chain noise of a bbs02 at full speed, that would be unbearable for those amounts of time.
Johnny, I want to convert my store bought hub motor ebike to a mid drive (once my warranty expires) but I managed to find everything except the rear wheel replacement. having a bit of difficulty finding a (please don't laugh) 20x4 inch cassette and disk break ready rear wheel. Yes, it is all aesthetics but I like how comfortable my bike is. Any suggestions, truly welcome.
Just buy the hub assembly and have a bike shop lease it into your current rim
Wow that is an interesting conversion, you need to do a youtube video of what it turns out like. I'd have been tempted to keep the rear motor hub and create a weird mid-drive setup with rear hub motor just to minimise chain wear when climbing hills etc. You probably can get a fat bike freehub hub and lace it to that wheel. As ever its a specialist part though so you'll probably pay through the nose compared to more easily obtainable parts. I've had past projects in mind only to find out that the price of the parts I wanted was prohibitive so I decided it just wasn't worth the investment. I'd personally try to copy the characteristics of the bike by getting a used acoustic bike that was similar and then fit a mid-drive motor it could work out cheaper plus you could compare the bikes and sell one of them on after deciding which is better long term.
Are the kits waterproof can I ride them in all weathers as I live in LEICESTER England
Water resistant but not waterproof. Rain is fine just don’t submerge
Johnny, That EBike in the background... I think it says "HONDA" on the seat...I assume that's a Mid Drive, not a Hub Drive?
What do you charge for a basic 750 W mid drive? With fenders and a rack
750w starts at ~$415, if we install it the labor starts at $350 fenders and rack depends on quality but figure $50-125 for that.
Have you converted an american BB to a mid drive single speed?
Yes, you need one of these adapters most likely
www.johnnynerdout.com/product-page/ashtabula-bottom-bracket-adapter
What's the Honda bike next to you? Looks scooterie
Mid drive with Rohloff.
But is a 1000W mid drive better than a 5000W hub drive? because cost wise that's the comparison.
Performance wise no. @5kw a hub motor would be more powerful. However @5kw we are no longer talking bicycles but more motorcycles/ mopeds.
For delivery around the city, hub drive any day. Lots of stop-starts between traffic lights, no time to shift gears if you want to get that early jump to cross the red light before traffic starts, the one-gear throttle-controlled hub motor does wonders, and puts no strain on the chain. I've literally seen other delivery drivers with mid-drives have to downshift, losing that critical second or two before they could get going from the light, sometimes too late to get that early jump through red. I just thumb the throttle and speed off.
That being said, you do need a good powered hub motor for that kind of peppyness. 1000w minimum (I got a 1500w one). And yes, it's less efficient and less torque up hills, but for me the tradeoff works.
Obviously not street-legal (especially here in Europe), but who cares. Put a 250W sticker on the hub (rip the 1500w one XD ), drive low-key around cops, and nobody pays you a 2nd glance. Very easy to get around the dumb rules.
Just register it as a motorcycle at that point
@@subjekt5577 And pay for registration and insurance? Fuck that :P
If it looks like a bike, drives like one, and has a nice big 250w sticker on it, it's a bike :)
Am 65 and a med drive motor is what I want 1000w full suspension 27.5. I live on the top of a hill and the ⛱ beach is right down the hill about 10 blocks down. Where I have a beach house 🏠. Right on the sand.
hey,ive got a question,ive installed a bbs02 on my bike yesterday,and ive noticed a problem.Whenever i put assistance level more than 6 sometimes,the battery just stops giving power and when i look at the display it tells me "0%" but then slowly gets back up.do you have any idea why?
You have a weak battery or a battery that does not meet the minimum requirements for the BBS02. The BBS02 can pull a maximum of 25A, so a pack capable of a minimum of 50A output is required to be safe.
@@ricksanchez3628 my battery is a 48v 13Ah isn't enough normally??
just checked my battery is normally able to continuasly provide 28A of continious discharge current.I guess this is what happens when something looks too good to be true
Also - some sellers tend to rate their products “optimistically” - as in they say it will manage a given current level over a long term, but the truth is about half of what they say it is (and sometimes less yet!)
Namely, if your motor can draw 30 amps at full stretch, you need a BMS that can source *at least* 60.
Cant wait to afford a mid drive system to add to my himiway cruiser.. im turning it into a mountain cruiser
You know what I don't like? Rim Brakes on an Ebike. I got into the worst bike accident I've ever been in on Thursday at 4:30PM and my friend and I both agreed that bike should go back to normal because it didn't even come with the front rim brake that we added it on. Not only does it only have Rim Brakes but ones that aren't nature.
The only factory Ebikes I see with Rim Brakes on them are ones that have 350Watts.
I am reusing the system on a new bike with disc brakes and having to buy a new set of wheels for the bike that got into an accident. The front wheel which is the front hub motor survived and the rear one didn't. Mirror that was already messed up broke. Pedal assist which is cheap broke too. Thumb throttle survived and still works but am still getting a new one because I am missing a screw from the accident.
I wouldn't consider a retail e-bike with rim brakes. The brakes are probably the least of your worries. I converted an old hardtail bike with V-brakes. They're plenty powerful (at least if I don't get the rims wet). Good disc brakes are the best choice, but there are bad ones...especially at the lowest price points.
Four-pot disks can save your behind, especially in panic stops or on long downhills with a trailer full of groceries. I have had both of those things happen to me, and I swear by those disks.
Great video. My question is when you say shifting gears on a mid drive, im not sure what that means because I have 11 sprockets on my cassette and 9 on my mid drive. I have noticed my chain getting hewed up a little...I usually ride on gear 3 on the motor and I switch gears as needed on my rear cassette. Am I supposes to down shit the motor and the cassette or just the cassette or just the motor or both? Thanx in Advance..Stay Safe
The 9 is not gears that's just the setting for how fast the motor spins at top speed. You get put that down the 5 or even 3 in the settings. For example on setting 1 out of 9 the motor will cut off at for example 10mph and 2 would cut of at let's say 14mph. Cause remember you don't want the motor to be spinning fast all the time and u want you pedalling to match the speed its turning. Think of the the speed setting as like a throttle 5 would be halfway and 9 would be full. When he says shifting gears he means on the bike manually not the ebike stuff.
The way these mid drives work bbs02 and hd is because they have no torque sensor(some bike have this to see how much force you put on the pedals and use that info to dial the speed as you pedal.) The motor just checks if you pedaling or not simply 2 states pedaling or no pedaling. It does by having magnets to detect it. If you pedal the motor slowly cranks up to a certain speed this is where the assist levels come into play the 1-9 you mentioned. You can also program this with right cable. And so the actual gears on the bike itself is more important if you were on a hill let's say.
I have mine set to 5 assist levels and mostly stay on 4 but use the throttle exclusively. I don't change gear often but if I use pedal assist I normally just start at level 1 pedal till that maxes and slowly increase it if I needed to increase speed I only change gears if theres a hill really.
@@navidmehdi6 Thanx for the info and your time.
@@navidmehdi6 I keep mine on assist 1 and just keep changing gears like I did on a non Ebike..I switch to assist 3 for hills and windy days here in Florida
So are there other factors that affect how fast you will wear away your drive train?
For example, I live in illinois which is the 2nd flatest state behind Florida, also I don't plan on getting a throttle. Would it last longer?
I'm the exact bad example you said in the other video when it comes to gears lol. I have a 7 speed and leave it at 7 and change the power of the hub motor when I need more torque or speed.
I was considering getting a mid drive with a internal gear hub mainly so that it's a little easier to start again after stopping (by being able to shift gears when not moving). But I doubt I'd be very good at slowly shifting back up to the highest gear.
Do you think I'd be better off sticking with the hub or do you think in this specific case I might not eat through chains that much faster?
How often do you eat through chains, or is this hypothetical?
@BJ Nicholls as in is my example hypothetical? No its real.
I currently haven't broke a chain yet. It's been a little over a year and I think I've done close to 1000 miles.
I think even when I go out 10+ miles the max difference in elevation is 60ft.
I found that using a BBS-HD meant not *needing* to shift much as a rule. When my knees started hurting especially bad on some longer rides - typically, after about 25 miles or so - I would put it in the lowest gear I could find in the bike (second from bottom) and just cruise along in the low teens. Supposedly the motor’s most efficient when it’s turning at a good rate, and I generally don’t go much over 15 mph except in emergencies.
I am wondering why we never see any hub motors designed with an internal geared hub integrated into the design? I'm no expert on the subject but it looks doable, albeit more complicated. Has anyone else thought of this or knows why it isn't viable? The only real roadblock I can see, is that possibly internal geared hubs may not be robust enough to reliably handle the stress - or that the failure of either component would require the replacement of both. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.
I don’t there is enough physical space for a hub to fit both a motor and a transmission
@@JohnnyNerdOut Wow - that's too bad. I was hoping that - since geared hub motors have one geared set, they could probably fit one or two more. I guess that assumption was inaccurate. Thanks for the reply!
@@waynecooper6124 there are hub motors out there that have 2 different sets of gear reductions though. Not the same but it’s a two speed
@@JohnnyNerdOut That's interesting - I'll look into that and see what's cooking!
@@waynecooper6124 One of the huge benefits of a hub motor is their simplicity, a direct drive hub is literally a motor as your hub there are no moving parts at all except for the bearings on the axle this can give them amazing reliability and long lifespan. Geared hub motors as you say have a planetary reduction system to increase torque but reduce rotation speed and a clutch mechanism for freewheeling. A little more complex but still very simple compared to mid-drive hence the very low pricing. i think it would destroy the simplicity and reliability of hub motors to add gears but as stated there was a 2 gear system but from what i saw in the forums it was not as reliable as a typical hub motor due to the extra complexity.
Buying anything is an experiment in experience .. mostly the first purchase is the wrong choice
Pros and cons,mid drive BBSHD bafang usually difficult to handle in traffic have to be treated with respect,chain and derailleur killer but for going up steep hills really fantastic. Hub motors more reliable but unless you get a 3500w hub and a big 🔋 battery ...after 5 chains and 1 derailleur on the BbsHd I would go back to buy a bigger hub and a big battery,more reliable, in any case good video Johnny but as for mid drive until they sort out a titanium chain or put a internal gearbox with a one speed gog on the rear hub then I would go back to a hub. The mid drive motor is not really reliable enough.
I've done many many miles on my BBS02 at 25 amps....never broke a chain, derailleur or any teeth, and reprogrammed with Karl's special sauce is absolutely butter smooth on throttle.
Ran a BBS-HD, and had zero trouble with chains, derailleur, etc. I was pulling a trailer, and riding longish distances. Only real problems I had was getting my trousers caught in the chain and then getting stranded - until it was stolen in March 2021!
Hubs have the ability to be way more powerful than mid drives. a qs273 will destroy any mid drive that comes its way because it can handle any amount of power you throw at it. on 72v 40ah 14,400w I pull 74mph with insane acceloration. Mid drives just cant compare to the limitless power high qualify hubs can handle. I know guys that run double the power I do on the same plat form.
Did you talk to a guy named Greg lately?
Haha, ya but I talk to a lot of people every day😀 last initial M?
@@JohnnyNerdOut
Oh man yeah that's him , I apologize , he's...extra sometimes.
good guy , he's loaded but super cheap
If your into REAL preformance. Go highpower hubdrive. 3k 5w 8kw 10w 14w all the way to 32400w Hubs can handle any of it. Look into qs205 or qs273. Focus more on continuous amps of battery and controller than anything. With the right power you will smash any middrive. (I pull 74mph on qs273) If you want a lowpower ebike thats more of an actual bike and fast for its limits go for a middrive.
ps qs also recently released the first high power 8k mid drive motor. I've heard at REAL power mid drives brake chains like toothpicks and actually manage to be slower than the hub (something about it not being able to push the weight of high power bikes)
Power is not multiplied by gears. Gears change speed and torque in proportion to each other. No power is gained, only lost through gears.
To patch a tube on the side of the road, use a rope to hoist the bike up a pole or tree. You gotta learn a couple of rope concepts though.
I would rather mess with a heavy rear wheel than a nasty chain.
If wattage output is the same, the performance would be the same. It cannot be night and day if both mid and hub dyno the same. If they do not dyno the same, they are not the same power.
A $100 direct drive hub motor can eat 7 kW with ease. A $100 hub motor pushed to its thermal limit will power wheelie.
It is not like an internal combustion car with gears, electric motors do not work the same as piston engines in cars.
Maybe a better way to think about it is to think of it as leverage. Using leverage gives you a more powerful result using the same power at the source 👍
Lol at "basically considering a wheelchair"
bike shops by me will never work on any ebike. They just do not to work on anything with a battery.
Cyclone no chain gard
5:18 🤣
“If you’re thinking about a wheel chair … get a hub motor” @5:18
Hmmmmmwhat
I knew I’d get some flack for that comment. I just meant that a hub motor is way easier for someone needing motorized transport vs a mid drive. Many people are on the cusp of needing motor transport and Ebikes are a super viable option for that need.
You wouldn't want a mid-drive on a wheel chair, mid-drive motors are much more complicated often with vinyl plastic gears and cogs and sometimes belts, they need to be made exceptionally well to be reliable and still many fail prematurely. You really don't want someone reliant on the motor functioning correctly to go mid-drive. Simplicity in engineering equals safety even if some parts of the specification could be improved with mid-drive motor application i.e. maybe climbing very steep pavements.
Shameless promotion!! What's the number again?
The preformance difference is irrelevant when you don't have low power bikes. at a cetain point you literally cant even use a mid drive. My qs273 can handle alot more than any mid drive can by far. The most powerful mid ive seen is 3000w. It cant compare to a 8000w motor that can handle 32400w of power. If you want a low power bike then a mid drive will out preform but the power hubs can handle will far surpass mid drives and be insanely faster.
I agree. But for the purpose of this video I was talking about e-bicycles. In most places anything over 1000w is no longer classified as a bicycle.
@@JohnnyNerdOut oh I see lol my bad 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Bull crap! Removing the rear wheel with a hub motor is no big deal. I done it many times, and I'm no mechanic.
Insulting older riders, got it. Wheelchair get a hub motor? Typical millennial arrogance
Not my intention at all. I just want people to make informed decisions. Way too many people buying equipment that is not intended for their needs and purposes and ends up collecting dust. Yes, if you make an omelette you have to crack a few eggs. My intention is not to belittle anyone. Pardon my communication style.
Did you end up getting a wheelchair or a hub motor? Sry I'm just joking 😅😭
I am 74 and not insulted at all. I have been an avid road rider for over 50 years. I put thousands of miles on my road bike. But now, I am partially disabled and have limited use of my right leg. I chose to get an e-bike with a hub drive and cadence sensor. It’s better than sitting on the couch.
I just buy a normal bike and tie a rope to the automobiles. I call it a "hitch drive" 🫡