Biggest Misconception about how E-bike motors work; Hub vs Mid
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2021
- I am not anti- hub drive :) It's just not for me. the only time I would consider a hub would be if it had at least 3,000w but even then the unsprung weight in the back and the pain in the ass of changing a flat in the rear would probably make me change my mind again :) But that is just my opinion and everyone's preferences are different. My background is in motorcycles and dirtbikes, so I tend to like higher powered machines.
- Věda a technologie
I am living in Norway, a country well known for mountains and fjords. After wearing out two hub motors in a short time. Changing to mid motors was the solution, biking in summer and winter with a lot of snow. Both of my mid motors are working well after a clean up and some oil. Thank you for the non nonsense up loads. :)
what modifications did you do?
In Finland`s small hills the front hub work well. In snow its weight give better grip and tires or chain not have excessive wear. It easy to replace or put other wheel.
@@jarikinnunen1718 Yes, in winter the front hub will drag you out of the snow. Anyway, we are all in this for transport and fun. No matter what gear we have. :)
Hmmmm, never heard of Norway, I'll have to Google it. What is a "mod motor", nothing came up in a Google search on that.
@@maxwaters1461 Just a misprint. Mid motors. Norway is a country in Scandinavia, North Europe.
Just wanted to add a note from a senior (64 year old) point of view. My wife and I each have a Townie 7D, with 750 W 48v mid-drive systems that we have had for the last six years. We ride every day about 13 miles with a couple of moderate grades, one of which is pretty steep and all are paved. We have plenty of power climbing and can exceed 20 MPH on the flats, if we so desire (we usually cruise about 13 MPH). We have over 7500 miles on these systems. I just put a new Bafang 750W, 48v on my bike with a 20ah battery which my bike mechanic recommended. Great system. The Townies are solid bikes and we love riding them. Thanks for the video!
I ride a mid drive since 4 years, but before that I had a front hub drive lent to me for a whole summer, so I feel like I have some experience. Mid drive feels superior for ride quality, low center of gravity, less mass on the wheels etc. However it tends to wear out the drivetrain significantly faster. But. The feeling of a front hub was always like a 4WD vehicle to me. Pull on the front while I also pedal and have power at the rear. Felt always like I can take off better than with mid drive. Even on some steep hills you can just change to your lowest gear, start pedaling like hell and add that power from the front hub and have a great sensation of starting power. I mean what you say is only true if you are lazy and dont pedal, then your motor might struggle. When you do pedal in your lower gears and add the power from the motor you'll still be doing great.
I thought that was a great explanation of the difference between hub motors and mid drive motors. Loved your analogy with VHS and DVD, thought that was spot on. Keep up the great work, TY.
Cool video, thanks for posting. I'm over 60 and not in super great health, but I love riding my fat ebike with its hub motor. It is astonishingly fast, comfortable and gets me up all the hills in my area.
When I got my ebike in 2018, there were no mid drives that were price comparable, plus I don't ride in a particularly hilly area with no plans to ride dirt or mountains. I honestly would have considered a mid drive if there had been one to consider, but....
I am totally psyched to ride my ebike. It gets me off the couch several times a week. As a bonus, working on it is a secondary joy I get from it. This ebike has been a total win for me and I would be riding right now if it weren't fkn' raining!
Great honest advice.Went from 1000w hub to 750 watt mid drive .Like two different worlds .Keep up the great ebike themes.
I just wanted to say, thank you for always adding nuance in your explanations.
I'm in Utah and burned up my Amazon hub motor going up a hill over the weekend, I need to upgrade and that's how I found this channel.
Great points Johnny. I live in the SF Bay Area with lots of street hills to ride. Nice gentle hills for the most part but the hub motor on my bike is either at 750 watts or Zero watts. This cycle is repeating every street, up and then down. 750w to 0w over and over throughout the ride. My new bike has 325 miles and something has burned up, hopefully it's the controller and the bike shop is shipping me a new one - good on them. But I see where this is going, thanks to you and others with more experience sharing this info. Pretty clear to me that mid drives are the choice for hilly street terrain and beyond. Subscribed!
I wanted to Sincerely Thank you for explaining in Beautiful Detail the differences between a mid drive Motor VS a rear hub Motor. I’m new to the eBike world 🌎 & was looking for information to educate myself on the differences before purchasing a bike. I was extremely close to pulling the trigger on a $9k Cab Motorworks (Recon) which is a rear hub driven Bike. After educating myself specifically from you & a few others I just purchased a Beautiful, Made in the USA 🇺🇸 Zero FXE Electric ⚡️ Mid Drive Motorcycle 🏍. It just became available yesterday. It’s around $2k more than the Recon but is so much more Motorcycle 🏍 & has such good warranties Etc compared to the Recon. Thank you again. 🍻 👊. I’m definitely a subscriber for life. Stay Safe & Stay Free.
Great video, Thanks! My BBSHD mid-drive that you helped me build just crossed the 1000mile mark and is still going strong. Only thing I've had to replace is my brakes (x2). Thank you for all you provide the community.
That’s great 😀 I’m still waiting for someone to crack that 100,000 mile mark, maybe you?
You took the words right out of my mouth. Their is a lot of misconceptions. Especially when some (not all) compare the power of some hub motors to high powered motors which are designed to take more power. I loved the reference you gave in relation to over vaulting and pushing higher amps generating more heat which causes inefficiency. Keep up the vids mate 👍🏿
I have a 2000 watt hub motor with no gearing and has no issues with hill climbs
I got a 750 Watt geared hub motor on a Rad Mini. Had it over two years and over 3500 miles so far. Here, in N. VA we got a fair number of hills. I would of course like to have a bit more power, but with pedaling I am able to conquer practically all of the local MTB trails.
I live here in N VA as well. Most all the hills we have quite short. Regardless, if you had a mid-drive, you would definitely feel a difference. It is why ALL high end e-mtb's are mid drive. Not saying hub-drive is not good, just that it is more optimal for flatter terrain and speed applications.
@@trekkeruss come on just tell the truth midline Motors are far superior LOL
@@trekkeruss all these Hub motor guys they have to stick up for their Hub Motors because they have one LMAO
Hub motors are fit & forget. Mid drives get slathered in nut & crap. They also have to deliver the high torque of pedal speed - gearing losses.
@@trekkeruss High end e-mtb's are mid drive because unsprung weight is a critical factor. I do mountain bike trails with 30% grades on my e-bike, and my biggest problem was too much torque causing the front wheel to lift. That's with a hub motor.
Great video. Couldn’t agree more with you in this video. There is a big misconception and certainly a lot of misinformation provided to consumers. Most of the big brands try to sell consumers on more wattage which as you explained is not the only factor to consider what buying an ebike. We love to take customers out on test rides comparing a 250watt mid drive vs 500+ hub motors and each and every time the look on the individuals face is that of surprise. A fellow shop owner here on Ottawa has been selling hub motors for years now and we finally got the chance the go for a ride together and his look of surprise after riding a mid drive convinced him in under 10 minutes that the mid drive is the way to go! Thanks for putting out the video and keep up the great work educating people on ebikes 🤛
My first e-bike was a store-bought 350w ebike with a rear hub motor, but after watching JohnnyNerdout's mid-drive is better rant, I went and bought a BBS02 mid-drive and put it on my own Cannondale Quick 4, and OMG, what a difference. I can't even believe it. The mid drive is so much more powerful (granted it is 750w) and so much better to drive. Since it was my own bike, it was already more comfortable to ride, plus the display, the throttle, and the performance is just unmatched. I have become a believer.
😀
Just finished my first ebike conversion using the BBSHD kit and my 14 year old Scott Reflex 30 mountain bike. It's a monster. Love it. Having said that, hub motors are great for smaller ebikes. I also own three Jetson Bolt Pro, and they are awesome for RV/campgrounds. There are some great hub builds/folding bikes that seem pretty cool. Not as cool as my mid drive, but still cool! Keep making the great content!
11 months later... I have a lectric XP Lite (48volt, 300watt geared rear hub motor, 20" wheels) and a DIY Cyclone 3,000w middrive 52volt 21ah, 700c wheels, 7 speed 13T-32T rear cassette, and 44T front chainring. All of JNO's comments are correct especially if compared with the same rear wheel diameter.
But as shown by @Dbf Crell (and my own experience with my Lectric XP Lite), a lot of today's hill climbing geared rear hub motor bikes (like my Lite which can climb 12 degree hills in PAS 3), seem to be able to climb hills (I think) because of two factors: a) smaller 20" wheel diameter, and b) lower ratio gearing in the hub. But then top speed is only 20 mph, or 28 mph. (Top speed on the Cyclone mid-drive is 40mph in 7th top gear, and 0-20mph in 6 seconds (in 5th gear).
I am glad I researched before I decided that I like riding off road to watch for wilde animals (deer, foxes, coyotes, bears, etc) Pennsylvania is pretty hilly and with my bafang 1500 watt mid drive I go up some pretty steep hills...granted my legs are pumping because this is exercise for me, and my cardiologist said aerobic exercise, and biking does it. Built it in october, stopped from mid december till march, and am now over a 1000 miles ridden...I love it!
Way to go, Bro!
Sounds like where I am. Im in Western pa about 60 miles north of Pittsburgh
Listen to this guy -- he REALLY knows what is is talking about! He may have a little GOOOFY presentation style but the message he is trying to convey is 100% correct. I have been a biker for 40-years and also swear by Mid-Drive E-Bikes!
Well said. Electric vehicles either cars etc or bikes are still new to the masses (like me) so it's good to have some straight talk from someone who is passionate about the subject.
Thank you so much Johnny for your invaluable information, highly appreciate it, have a great day, keep it up the outstanding work.
This channel and you JohnnyNerdOut, freaking ROCK!
"Torque Multiplication"
A mid-drive's perhaps most significant advantage is having adjustable/selectable torque multiplication, by driving it's power through the many possible different gear ratios that are available from your rear cassette.
Small sprocket in back = higher speed w/ a little less torque. Switching to the larger sprockets gives you a little less speed but each step multiplies the torque BIGLY!
When batteries and motors finally become a lot more available, and somewhat more reasonably priced, I'm definitely converting my small frame, 26" tire Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc Craig's List bike to a Bafang mid-drive Ebike.
Your doing a great job with your tutorials,no graphics necessary.Keep it simple " just the facts as you see them.
Good call and don't underestimate the BBS02 if you want to save money , it's fairly cheap and has plenty of torque.
The 750w Bafang and a 48v battery is
@@madmanwheelies6157 did you buy that battery or make it thanks
In other words, "driving it's power" or transmitting it's power through a transmission.
Fellow Salt Laker. Glad I found your channel. Thanks!
I live in pa. And like a 30 mile radius is all flat ware I live. I have a ecotric rocket, my first e bike and so far, 600 miles, works better than i expected very happy with it. But I cant wait to try your mid drive set up. I'm searching locally as we speak for a nice fat bike. And love your truthful videos.
Great video, felt like two friends just chatting about bikes 👍
I put a 48v, 500w Tongsheng TSDZ2 Mid-motor kit on my Trek bicycle a few months ago. Awesome! Love the torque sensor. Quite and powerful. Not rip your guts out power, but with the standard 42 tooth front sprocket and 8 gears, I have plenty of power for hills while still having as much speed as I need. The "Bionic Legs" effect is real! If I need to go faster, I'll hop on the Triumph, lol.
Never apologize for speaking the truth and wanting to help others. Thank you. 👍
I'm sure that overall the mid-motor setup is superior, but for my needs and money a hub motor is perfect. Things have changed somewhat recently, but in the beginning mid-motors generally did not have throttles. This is really a huge loss of use to me. Not that I rely on using throttle only often, I do not. But when I take my bike out through the trails I am enjoying the scenery and looking for wildlife to take photos of so occasionally I will use the throttle while standing on the pedals to get a better view. I have 3.7K miles on my bike and I have been through water, mud, soft sand and yes, up hills. My take is this: If you are looking to get from point A to point B as quick as possible then get a mid-drive. If you are a bit more casual and don't look good in spandex (and want to save some money) a hub motor will work perfectly fine for you.
Great explanation! Weird analogies are the best.
I have a BBSHD and my wife has a hub motor bike from Decathlon.
I had to change the crank plate on her new bike because she couldn't get up any hills, and would always have to get off and push.
With the much smaller plate on the front she manages much better.
The bike has a lower top speed, but the motor cuts assist at 25kph anyway, so this isn't really a problem.
The thing with hub motors is they're a lot cheaper.
The BBSHD motor cost more than her bike did.
I think that this is great advice. An extra bit of information: if you want to cruise roads at 30mph, 2,000 watt+, 40+ amps will do the job all day. If you want to have excellent performance in all biking situations below 20mph, mid-drive wins
I've never owned one, but from what I understand, hub motors just aren't very reliable. I'm sure there are good and bad ones, but overall, I think mid drives are more reliable.
@@georgeforeman89 I don't think that is accurate. Both styles require maintenance but both should be very reliable- with the edge going to hub motors. Don't push them past their limit and they should last a long time if you buy a quality motor.
Thanks for the insight. A Electric bike is in my future.
Just bought a 10yo Specialized Hardrock for $250, looks in good shape. Pick it up on Sunday and I can measure the bottom bracket, it should be 68mm. Being new to this I want to make sure. Going with the BBS02 kit that has a 17.5ah with samsung cells. the kit is $889 on Amazon. Thx for your work making these vids.
My Tandem has a 750 watt rear geared hub motor and a 350 watt front geared hub motor. My wife and I plus bike are 400 lbs. We go up all hills in Colorado Springs without pedaling if we wish.
What diameter wheels?
2wd hubbies ftw
Haha maybe we’ll get to a point where people will ride hub motors for the nostalgia in the future (playing off your VHS analogy)
I got a bit of a different request for you, and definitely not a demand at all, this channel is an amazing resource. What’s the possibility of you doing a video dedicated to adaptive cycles? Like recumbent tadpole trikes, delta trikes, handcycles etc?
They’re all different beasts, and it can be difficult to weigh the pros and cons with the hub drive vs mid drive and extra parts needed for conversion. There’s very subtle differences with each that can make an easy first DIY conversion (on a diamond frame) into a much more involved, long, expensive and sometimes downright frustrating project on an adaptive cycle.
Love the vids my man, you just give the facts and opinions in a matter of fact way. Something we need more of these days.
I would love to do a video highlighting an adaptive trike, just need to do a conversion on one 😀
@@JohnnyNerdOut haha for sure! Depending on your area there’s probably an adaptive sports association or rental company nearby that could be worked with.
I know from personally experience that tons of adaptive programs/associations are always wanting/needing more exposure, but often don’t have the budget for CZcams vids and other types of advertisement outside of Instagram, etc.
Cheers!
Thanks, good explanation. I started with hub drive, then Bafang BBS mid drive, and now Yamaha mid. I love the Yamaha, but in many ways the Bafang is better, and cheaper, you can easily modify the performance parameters.
Here in UK, we are restricted to 250W continuous, which is more than adequate for me, I ride very hilly routes and enjoy the workout with just enough assistance. If you want 5000W or whatever, get a motorbike.
the 250w is just a bs lable to please lawmakers if you meassure them yourself and some people did they are getting power outputs of up to 600-650w and like 400w continous
It has been my experience that there are advantages & disadvantages to both types. If you are running a 750 watt hub motor with the same cassette & chainring as a 750 watt mid drive, you are not going to have a huge difference in overall performance. There is a reason you don't see very many 3000 watt Mid Drives & that's because Mid Drives are harder on your driveline & frame. With a hub motor putting power directly to the ground, you don't have the chain whip on gear changes & should you break your chain or have other mechanical problems, you can still use your throttle to get home. Parts replacement are far easier & usually plug & play where mid drives require complete dis-assembly. We have new riders on day trips using both mid drives & hub motors & the ability for customers to get rolling again using just the throttle on the hub motors has saved us countless times having to manually downshift to a low gear. I wouldn't rule out hub motors, just get a good one.
We need stronger chains like motorcycles have or probably something inbetween. Cos that's the weakest link. Cassettes are quite sturdy as they are. There are chains marketed for e-bikes so perhaps those could be used with higher wattage mid-drives like tuned up 3000W BBSHD. With straight out of the box 1000W regular chains are enough and a way to keep things cheap. There's also belt drive instead of chains but dunno about the strength of those.
daytriker🤣🤣🤣" If you are running a 750 watt hub motor with the same cassette & chainring as a 750 watt mid drive, you are not going to have a huge difference in overall performance." 🤣🤣🤣 absolute bullshit!! the difference is night an day between them, mids will out perform hubs massively in every way, hill climbing, load carrying, range you can travel, not to mention weight distribution which helps make the bikes handle and brake better ...... 🤣🤣
@@arronjohnston742 Your complete B.S. is what gives you away as an amateur. Simple physics will tell you that 750 watts is 750 watts regardless of whether it is in a Mid Drive or Hub Motor. Remember I said with the same chainring & cassette. While Mid drives can produce more torque, hub motors do not have the power losses going through your drive line & deliver power far better to the road than a Mid Drive. As for efficiency & range, that comes down to your entire set up not just choosing between a Hub Motor or Mid Drive. We have had both on our Trikes in practical use out on the road so this is from actual user experience not from theoretical reviews n YT. Hub motors for smoother power delivery & high speed - Mid Drives for grunt climbing hills but poorer power delivery & shorter driveline life.
@@daytriker 🤣🤣🤣you have no idea what you're talking about, i know from something called actual experience having built both with thousands of miles on them, mid drives absolutely WILL out perform hubs everytime in climbing ability out right speed cruise speed an mileage handling towing ability hauling full saddle bags ........ i'd rather rake my balls across broken glass than EVER go backwards to a hub 🤮 .... you remind me of an idiot self proclaimed e-bike builder/seller in another video trying to tell a 350lb 6' 4" guy all he needs is a 500w hub 🤣🤣🤣👎👎👎
@@daytriker You’re missing a very simple point, the torque from the mid drive is amplified by the gear that you’re in. In the hub drive it isn’t. You shouldn’t call other people “amateur” when you yourself are ignorant.
Great content .Power and gearing .. Most people don't know a low that low is slow speed , but high power ..but.. Man 2021.. I haven't seen a DVD In more than 5 years..Its in the cloud..
HAHA, I already need to do an update :)
I like to think of it this way. Your hub motor is a helper. With the mid drive, I’m the helper.
If you are a commuting flat lander, and in no real hurry, a hub motor should be just fine. If it’s hilly and you’d like to have some fun, that a mid drive is needed.
An advantage for the hub, much less wear on the drive train.
I'm with you 100%. I have both. When commuting, the hub drive is the answer. It accelerates better and maintains the speed better.
The public should have Hubs Hate Hills or something similar always in the mind before choosing an ebike
@@utubeape 👍TO YOUR EMOJI!
I’m thinking of getting a 20 inch fat tire bike and there are now quite a few options for mid drive for this size. Do all these arguments still apply equally to the smaller wheel or is it less important, and could there be an argument for too much power on the smaller sized wheel? Any advice is much appreciated
I built 750 watt mid drive and 1000 watt hub motor bikes. I live in West By God Virginia. My 16 mile daily ride includes a steep 1/2 mile climb and a 1 1/2 mile long climb ending in about a 1/4 mile 40 degree assault. No comparison. The mid mount climbs no problen Hub drive? Stays in the garage
Ya, being able to gear low with a mid-drive makes all the difference here. (Also from WV.)
The guys over at endless sphere calculated that I need about a 4Kw hub motor to keep from burning it out on these hills with the loads I carry.
I have bbshd 52v 41.4ah 21700 cells on my custom hardtail just the frame left btwin 26"medium frame rockshox sektor fork dt swiss carbon wheels front deore xt hub rear stock no name 🤭 kmc x9el gold chain and 9speed deore xt cassete with 203mm front deore slx rotor centerlock rear 203mm avid g3cs and stock tektro auriga comp brakes 🤣stops good next thing is to put deores 4pot brakes front and rear and maxxis hookworm tyres and the beauty is done 🥰🥰 reached 44mph downhill no problems but need those hookworms 😎😎✌🏻🖐🏻
Fantastic video. Thanks Johnny!
thank you, you have probably saved me hundreds of GBP! I live in a small town, Somerset, UK. The only way out is uphill. it never occurs to me to look at the motor type, ratio nor power. very interesting.
I just want to let you know that you were the guy who made me spend the extra €€ and get a mid drive instead of a hub motor bike I was eyeing at. Best purchase ever!
I usually try to spend as much time as possible trying to research every aspect about something before making the final decision. Nobody had compared the mid drive and hub motors the way you did. And it made even more sense when I started thinking about it.
Thank you!
Awesome!
In a hilly area the mid drive makes most sense with shifting the gearing to fit the application. Gears are quick to shift. I am convinced.
Thanks mate for differentiating the Hub with mid drive
Thanks - good clear info!
Just this summer we did a family holiday to the west coast and hired e-bikes over the golden gate…
I loved it and have been trying to research e-bikes since.
As you have said, there’s lots of info out there but little that properly explains the fundamental differences between the motor types - I’ve been going round in circles.
Fairly sure now though to get mid drive.
I’m a larger bloke that’s kinder paranoid about getting an e-bike that’s nots quite powerful enough.
Also want full suspension but not a mountain bike body position ride if that makes sense. Wanting a more relaxed ride position…. do you have any current suggestion in mid to late 2023?
Thanks for info. More pics of parts will help w explaining. 👍🏽
i appreciate the information. i am about to pull the trigger on something very soon. but this kind of reminds me of my hobby level rc cars/trucks/planes/drones. none of them have transmissions, they all have crazy torque from the moment you say go. obviously this is a power to weight ratio equation. electric motors tend to not need a transmission as their torque curve is flat across the rpm range, unlike say a internal combustion engine, which has the most torque at certain sweet spots in the rpm curve. i do get the point, it sounds like most people that are using a mid mount motor are under sizing their electrical motor applications and perhaps counting on a final drive line ratio to make up for the lack of power, to keep it legal. it make sense now that i am thinking about it more. i'd rather still have a huge hub motor, but now i am curious if it will climb as well as i was hoping
Hi I have got the ebike bug bad and have been trying out everything available and agree with you entirely the only thing you don't mention is rider wight I've built a hub drive for my grandson 36V 250W ( very little lad 8 years old )and it is amazing up the steepest of hills and it never goes rung I'm very heavy and love my bafang centre drive but the drive train needs lots of up keep ... keep the good work up ED
My first ebike was a hub drive bike and while on flat surfaces it was great, but like you mentioned, hills sucked. I sold that and bought a mid drive eMTB and wow what a difference. That thing will climb a wall. Riding trails has become so much more fun since I don't have to push up steep grades anymore.
1 item you left out was the loss due to the extra gears in the mid-drive. Hub motors are direct drive on the rear wheel, where as the mid-motor has to go through a series of gears and chain to get to the rear wheels. And interesting experiment would be to have the exact same motors (wattage and torque) in the 2 bikes and do a side-by-side comparison. The loss due to the extra gears may surprise us.
I have done that. Check out my “why hub motors suck” video 😀👍
I am new to E-bikes, but it took me only a couple hundred miles to learn that what Johnny is saying is exactly right. Luckily, I live in Dallas, where my hub drive works fine on the flat trails. But my next bike will be mid-drive for sure.
I thought you did a great job exsplaining the difference, if I had watched this video I would of gotten a mid drive on my himiway cobra . Soo 3 weeks in now & im gonna convert it to a 1,000 bafang mid drive, I live in a hilly area & the 750 w hub does not cut it . All good it’s the learning curve . Thanks man & I subscribed
Lol I use my rad rover for hunting and tearing up hills. I'm only 150 lbs though and in decent shape. Things eats em up for me even fully geared up with a blind and chair strapped to the back on top of my loaded saddle bags and rack. Usually will have at least 20 lbs of bait strapped to the front rack too. Also not an old man so it's pretty easy.
You are right , I have a geated hub drive bafang 750w runs 1440w max .I usually adjust it to between 750 to 1000w dependent on my route. running 1500w on geared motor is just a waste.I am itching for a middrive frey bike maybe.
Love your work
My first ebike that I build myself back in 2010 ...mod my mountain bike and put a front 1000w hub motor gearless(as there none at that time, at least I had no knowledge of them anyway), it could climp me from standstill to 45% hill without an issue ..the controller was massive, the batteries I use back then were 4x 12v SLA 7Ah, it was a BEAST of power
Hey mr. NerdOut, I want to build a fat tire bike with full suspension and mid drive 750hd or whatever that Bafang chunky butt is called. What would you tell me if you had the chance?
I don't know anything about hub motors but I ❤ my BBS02, which was recommended by your dog 😉
u do a great job of explaining your points!! I prefer dvds
Maybe let the dog talk more, but the 18% grey background on this one was spot on.
Anyway, this is a big improvement over the pin wheel rockets we were trying back in the 60's on our stingrays. Think grass fires.
So for the bOOmers, make a Mid Drive that loots like the plastic Varoom (Matel???) with the sound feature ...
Hey Johnny. Are mid-drives still good at hauling gear up hills?
I have a question about cassette ratios. I have a bafang 750w, and changed the front sprocket to a 32 tooth, because of large hills around my house. Do you have suggestions on how I can 8ncrease my top speed while maintaining the lowest gear ratios. I have a 8 speed but am thinking of creating a custom cassettes with maybe 6 gears to keep the chain line optimal. Any suggestions or resources?
You should be able to swap out the cogs in the rear to suit your needs. Keeping the 11t will keep your top speed and then just add larger low gears to give you better hill climbing. You might be able to go bigger up front actually if you also go bigger with your low gears
@@JohnnyNerdOut thank you! Love the channel.
At 8:10 you definitely have the "KNOW HOW" just keep doing what you are doing, pounding away at what you know is the right way to go.
Why does fixing a flat on the rear wheel have to be done taking off the wheel? I changed a flat on my hub drive just by taking out a portion of the inner tube, where the puncture was.
Just to add @Rafael Mejia, as you suggested, there's better chance of also locating and removing the sharp object that's probably still lodged in the tire's carcass.
Just hope no one does what I did which was hunt for it by running my bare fingers up and down the inside of the tire to try to find it. Got a nasty blood gushing gash cut on the tip of my index finger. That was just #1 of two stupid things I did - #2 was a later incident when I tried looking around the street for something to push a piece of glass back out. I was looking for a small rock, but not finding one, I instead hastily used a piece of plastic bottle cap that had been run over by a car, I pushed against the plastic piece and the glass went right through the plastic... Now I always tote a small flathead screwdriver wrapped in cardboard...
I am currently enjoyed using a direct drive hub user, it has less maintenance especially on chains, brake pads and capable of engine braking that cant be done by a mid drives. Yeah you are right about mid drives. But there are pros and cons between the two.
My 750w mid drive (and 1000wh battery, and bike, and etc) is on its way! Very excited!
In this video you talked about gear shifting in a mid drive, how does that work? Is that some sort of internal thing you can do with the speedometer menu thing? Or is there a manual switch you have to move on the motor? Or is it like a normal bike gear shifter?
Regular bike shifter. You can adjust the power from the display as well.
Great question. I was wondering the same thing aswell. My mid-drive Ebike is in the works right now
@@JohnnyNerdOut Okay, thank you very much!
Thinking about how to convert my Rans screamer recumbent tandem. How would a mid-drive work with my bike? Was wondering if the front set of pedals could be used. The motor would have to be on the right side. Could the wires be reversed, and the motor run backwards? How about a video on converting tandems? Otherwise, it's a hub drive.
What about a Stromer ST5 or ST3 on hills? Are they still powerful enough?
The good thing about physics is that it doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it's still physics!
😂🙌
I agree!!!!
Great explanation 👍
Hey Johnny, what front cog and rear cassette gear raito do you like to use for your Bafang mid drive 750w builds? I am 185 lbs. Thanks!
I like 42 tooth front (Lekkie) and 11-36/44 in rear
What do you recommend, 1000w hub gear motor or 750w Bafang BBS02 ? I live in a plain area, but I still want speed !!!
Depends on your riding experience/ wants. If you don’t like changing gears, go hub. Sounds like either would work for you. Keep in mind I do consultations to really dive into peoples backgrounds and needs to really put a finer point on which bike/system would be best 👍
My little Lectric can put out about 1hp (~800w) for a short time (48v x 19a). One HP means 550 ft-lbs per second. In other words, 1 HP can lift a 550lb weight one foot per second. It's certainly true that a mid-motor can do its thing through an extreme gear reduction, but the fact remains a hub motor consuming 800W can do the same "lifting" as a mid-drive--as long as hub rpm's are kept up.
So both motors can do the same amount of "work," but only if the rpm's are comparable, and here the mid-drive setup can deliver far better gearing for steep slopes.
@richard iredale - I have both the Lectric XP Lite (20" wheels, 48v, 300-720w motor),and two mid-drives (a Cyclone 3,000w and a Bafang BBS02 750w, both 52v on 700c wheels). See my reply to @ivanh3. The Lite can also (remarkably) climb 10-13 degree hills remarkably well but note the 20" wheels. Those same hills (and steeper) can be conquered by both middrives, but the later can also reach 40 mph and 30 mph respectively (and yet the BBS02 bike is about the same weight as the 45 lb Lite). Also by eing able to really gear down on the mid-drives, both the motor, controller and pack are much cooler and less stressed on the mid-drives. Also better range when motor is working in its optimal rpm and current draw (both allowed by user selectable gearing of the mid-drive).
You did a great job of explaining. So thank you for that. I think I will try to change my RadCity to a mid-drive. It's a direct-drive hub, but I sure would like more torque. Should I just completely get a new rear wheel rather than carry around that extra weigh of a wheel with a motor that is not being used?
It would definitely make your handling and performance better if you get your wheel rebuilt with a standard hub 👍
I'm having trouble finding the answer to a basic question about mid-drive eBikes: if you have a mid-drive with a throttle, can it move without pedaling? In other words, is there some kind of ratcheting/freewheeling mechanism in the chain ring that allows the motor to spin it while the pedals aren't moving? Or do you have to always be pedaling to keep up with the motor?
Yes it will power you without moving the pedals. It has a freewheeling crank.
Would like to know where a differential gearbox would be used. To my knowledge they are used to split a drive between two wheels, whereas a bike is straight motor to one wheel.
crazy question Johnny. can i fit a mid drive to my existing hub motor ebike? ....yes.....BOTH?
Yes you can. You will need two drive systems though. 2 batteries and 2 controllers unless you have a crazy powerful battery and controller that can power two systems
Can you recommend a good 750w mid drive motor for a build? What's a fair price?
Bafang bbs02. Depends on market price but around $450
Nearly 2000 miles on my bbs02b trek 7.5fx since April. Hg400 12-36 cassette and kmc x9e ebike chain working so nice!
Sounds very nice! I too have a much older, but all alloy Trek similar in appearance to your bike. No rust or wear, looks like new, and a large frame as I am 6'3" tall / 190 lbs.
I've been thinking about making it an e-bike with Bafang bbs02 mid drive motor. Did you convert it yourself?
Easy or Hard? Where do you ride? I don't commute because I work from home, and near retirement age, so I'm wondering whether or not I would use it much. No where I have to be! lol Does look fun as hell!
Any advice? Tips?
Thanks! 😎🤘
Hi Johnny if I'll be doing an ebike conversion from a traditional one, which frame material should I be looking for - alloy, steel or chromoly?
Unless you plan on using a super high powered system (over 3k watts) I wouldn’t worry about it. Just don’t go with carbon fiber.
@@JohnnyNerdOut thanks Johnny. I currently have a fat ebike with 500w hub motor. Could I swap it with a 1000w hub motor from AliExpress, assuming that my stock controller is rated @ 2000 watts?
@@nickojohnodtujan2795 yes. However you might be putting a lot more strain on the motor that wasn’t designed to handle it.
Could you give us a good setup for something mid-drive that you could put supermoto tires on? Or maybe fat tires? I ordered a dual hub drive motor but I’m thinking about cancelling my order to get a Sur Ron. Mid drive and the motor can handle way more power than with stock.
HAHA, you're all good
You are so right, I put a trailer on my 500w hub drive bike, and even a slight hill makes it seem like there is no motor at all, I now want to switch to a cassete with more teeth for the top gear, but then that makes the motor pointless, I wish I knew what you have explained before I bought my bike
Thanks for great thinking! all DC motors won’t work well in low speed ( speed drop 0 -> Am go sky heigh), and the power connector is simply clip on and will be killed fast on heigh electric current, thought my idea was old fashion and no longer true on fancy hubs, very happy to see you speak out to public. Hub drive die in few month on hill area, that’s half prize of mid drive.
Price
Controller will control amps.
@@difflocktwo , thanks, so i was wrong & amps won't go hi, then still won't get max power in low amps, still not good hubs in low speed right?
@@chigao4698 every application needs the correct motor. if you need high power and low speed, you need a big motor. or you need expensive gears. many electric scooter and skateboard use hub motor. hub motor is good if you choose the motor to match your needs.
How much resistance do we have to overcome on a mid drive? My hub drive has so much resistance it is impossible to use as a non-motorized bike.
I’d say 10% added resistance on a bafang bbs02 mid drive
👍 I did the same thing. Rear hub motor. HimiwY cruiser. For logging roads, very steep hills. Yea it's fun,, yes it is pretty good,, but it's not what I need.It doesn't have enough torqe to be used as a atv. now I'm figuring on a middrive kit to put on the himiway to get me were I want to be, quietly as possible.
Himiways are good very good for hilly blacktop roads, or smooth dirt and gravel hilly roads, but off road hills,,,,I push alot, and burn the brake pads up quick going down
How does the rambo megatron hash out with your discussion? By the way I love this channel thank you for having it !!
This is good info man, I sold my single speed MTB and bought a 2020 Trek EX5 full-suspension bike with the intention to get a BBS02 or BBSHD and battery from you. My only concern is that I'd need a bigger (more expensive) battery would be need to power the BBSHD, but I like the idea of all that power....tasty.
The number diff
750w. 1000w
Max 1500w. 1750w
32-48v. 48-52v
Good luck on your decision
Well I've got a Rad Rover with a geared rear hub motor. It has 750 watts I live in southern Oregon it's very hilly. One of the other things I like about this rad Rover is the fact I have a throttle on the right hand so if I'm going through say a creek bed with large rocks I don't have to be pedaling in order to get power to the rear tire I can have my pedals at the highest point for clearance over said rocks where is my friend with his center drive motor has to be pedaling the whole time. I'm an experienced Moto guy been racing dirt bikes most of my life. And while everything you say is correct my friend and his wife just went out and bought two giant mid drive bicycles for about $9,000 each. And like you said on the steep stuff with being able to change the gearing they work great but my bike cost $1,400 and on the faster stuff there bikes can't keep up with mine. I also own two zero electric motorcycles.
Don’t tell them this, but they got RIIIIIIIIIPPPED OOOOFFF!😀
Find the lightest normal bike you can buy and slap a BBSHD on it and enjoy.
Well explained video and very neede.
I use a cyclone 3000W. Wanted to ask about using a IGH 8spd for dirt riding which do you suggest and not too expensive
Thanks for replies. 😄👍
The only one that can handle it would be the rohloff. You can try the sturmey archer 5spd and only use 1&5 under load
I'm thinking of geared hub motor in front MId drive motor and automatic transmission, can you give me some input on these idea or Am I crazy.
Not crazy. Just insane. Why do you need AWD?
I'm leaning toward a 750 or 1000 watt mid drive. I am pretty rural and would mostly be riding on rural roads. What determines legality of wattage. I'm in Illinois. What I have found online seems ambiguous. Is 1000 watt legal? Would a cop even check wattage if pulled over.
In Illinois I believe it’s 750. Only New Jersey and Oregon are 1000w. I would double check my statement though as things change a lot.
I have a CSC 20 inch fat bike. You can do what I did and add a 1000 front hub motor to a retail ebike that already has a hub.The motor and battery were 500 dollars. I have dual motors--dual batteries and dual controllers. I have some vids on here and unless you do something really dumb--the cops will not mess with you.Mid drives are a lot more money--require constant shifting and put a LOT of extra wear and tear on the chain--sprocket. Also if something fails you have a long walk/ ride home,I have 80 to 100 mile range--I pedal 90% of the time--and I can climb the steepest hills with just the 1000 front hub motor with ease--20 to 28 mph up steep hills--34 on a flat. Putting no strain on sprocket or chain--and if one of these systems fails--I have the other system to get me home--I would have to have 2 catastrophic failures to turn it into a walker.Having AWD means there is nothing I can not do--anything from flat pavement to a motocross course,.Also the 1000 watt hub is connected straight to the battery--throttle only--so I have all the power 100% all the time.I did mine complete for 2200-2300 total price and can outrun even the dual motor grizzlies. I also have a 48v 20 AH battery connected to the 1000--so I have plenty of range and power just on that one motor when I need it.BTW I can not use the 1000 until I am at 10 mph--or the tire will spin.
@@khronin I'm 65 years old and like tinkering with motorcycles, old cars and as a young boy bicycles. The thought of upgrading my hub drive e-bike,after 600mi of great fun,has interested me in maybe upgrading. My Himiway Cruiser could use a front 750watt hub as well thanks to your possible suggestion. Being 65 with a weak knee and my need for more power could change rapidly visiting new trails in other states for example. I can't peddle endlessly anymore or I don't want to.
What displays are compatible with the Bafang BBSHD, BBS01, and the BBS02 that operate on a 750W motor ?
Tons, I only have a fraction of the available ones on my website. I have a separate video going over the different displays.
All the geared Geared Hub motors I am familiar with have a 5:1 actual internal gear reduction . Most midrives are 9:1.
Where motors can change also is the motor coul winding itself. They can be wound for more low end torque with resultant lower top speed. The more turns of winding per stator arm, the greater the starting torque and the lower the top speed. Some hub motor brands like MAC offer different motor windings. 6, 8, 10, 12. Fir high power motors like qs direct drive motors I think the windings go down as far as 3t.
I agree that if a mid drive is available, get it, for the average person who just doesn't know.
Although I happily use both.
"Motor coil winding "
Great info review
I agree with you 100% geographical location plays a big part, I live in Brooklyn New York I don't need a mid drive My 750 watt Hub Motor motor works just fine around here, but if I were to go somewhere with hills and aggressive trails it would be mid drive all day long, and like my grandpappy used to say you don't send a boy into do a man's job.🚴♂️💨👍👍✌🤙🤙👋👋
Yep, exactly!
I live in San Francisco with a lot of massive hills.I have a Juiced Bike Rip Current model with 750 watt hub drive motor. It actually gets up the hills pretty good. A physically fit rider could get away with a hub drive motor here. But of course if I had more money I would get a mid drive to cruise around with.
Great content! You do an amazing job at explaining each subject that you cover. I have learned so much already from your videos. Now I want to concert my hub drive to mid-drive. I am just wondering if it will work with my bike or not? I am on my second Rize bikes blade. 500watt bafang hubdrive 42v 17ah I am in Canada and ride all year., even the snowmobile trails. I am just over 12,000km or 7500miles on this blade in 10 months. How would the mid-drive do in the deep snow? Would the chain skip on my cogs from snow pack? And would the motor be okay in those elements of cold and packed full of snow? Thanks again for the great videos! Its a lot of work these videos. I have a youtube channel myself and it's overwhelming with questions at times.
i think it depends on the gear you are in if it is a higher gear (small cog in the rear) then the chance of it skipping are higher than if it is in a lower gear because then there are just way more theeth meshing whith the chain
Hi thank you for the compliment. Do you currently own a Blade?
There is a Blade i just found the other day on the internet. It's posted on reddit, its a yellow Blade with a 3000watt cyclone mid-drive kit that will fit fat bikes. The motor looks pretty crazy on the blade and it is a stupid crazy power motor.
I think you explained everything pretty well, the last thing you’d need to have happen is having your crayon snap in half while trying to draw the differences between mods and hubs. What’s the pup’s name?