Pilot Makes Tragic Mistake On Honeymoon Flight!
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- An airline pilot made a tragic mistake when he and his new bride were flying back home from their wedding and honeymoon. Costas Sivyllis was the groom and the pilot. Lindsey Vogelaar was the bride. This is the story about the tragic mistake that led to their plane crash.
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I hope others are able to learn from this tragic mistake. If you found value in the video, then you might also learn more from this video where bystanders were shocked seeing a pilot's fatal mistake: czcams.com/video/TfndgMdQ9Cg/video.html
God bless you Hoover , your the realist 💪💯
Condolences to the family.
Hoover, what should he have done? Calculate density altitude and then don what differently?
@@badchoice44he said in the video. Take off away from the canyon of telluride and climb alltitide till u can pass over.
Especially easterners. I have 500 hrs or so but I’ve never operated at an airport above about 800ft ASL. Most of the airports I use are around 200 ft ASL. I understand the theory of DA but actually experiencing how the airplane handles and how it changes your perspective on approach and departure and judging how far you are from mountains you can’t get from a POH.
My wife asks me all the time why I watch these videos you make as she finds them scary and depressing. My response is, learning about these situations and understanding the gravity of these situations will make me a safer private pilot. Just great reminders to think first.
my parents and friends ask me too. I tell them I watch because the aviation industry studies these accidents so thoroughly and make proper adjustments, the videos actually make me feel safer about flying.
Exactly. Life is not fun-and-easy-only at all, it is full of situations we're not familiar with. As much as this can sound depressive, it's a life saver. Knowledge is power.
🤮
Same reason us ladies watch crime videos
I think you are very wise to learn from tragedy so that you are not doomed to repeat it. It doesn't make the tragedy less sad, but at least you can mitigate future ones.
My Dad was an airline captain. Time after time he saw friends retire from the airlines, buy a small aircraft, and then get killed in it. When he retired he bought a radio-controlled airplane, and lived another 30 years.
There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but never bold and old pilots!
I have14,000 hours in regional aeroplanes. I'm not brave enough for what this guy did.
Yup!
Those small planes are typically 50 or 60 years old and do not have the latest and greatest tech that the jetliners have. Kind of ironic that young pilots with great reflexes and acumen are flying the most modern and technologically advanced aircraft. I will call these planes digital aircraft. Yet when they are old, retired and with decreasing reflexes and acumen, they buy these 50 year old airplanes which I call analog aircraft. Your Dad was wise!!
I was not an airline pilot but a successful business owner with locations from Cincinnati, OH to KC, Missouri (including St Louis and other locations within this area).
I bought a Grumman Cheetah AA-5A with a 160hp STC's and flew it company business and with my wife and daughter throughout the Midwest for 7yrs. I am a Commercial Pilot, Instrument rated, aerobatic training in a Bellanca Decathlon 180hp. Really had no close calls, flew IFR in IMC numerous times but paid attention to details, weather, and flight envelope. Turning around or landing ASAP was always an option.
I am an Italian private pilot who flies mainly in the Apennines area (a mountain range, with peaks reaching up to 3200 metres). Every time I have to climb a slope at least a mile before I do 360 turns uphill until I reach the same height as the mountain I want to climb. Furthermore, I almost never fly inside narrow valleys because an engine failure in those situations could almost always be fatal. No one taught me these things, I learned them from manuals, from experience, from common sense and from the mistakes of others.
Thank you for being a 🧑✈️ and being responsible safe smart and kind
Thanks from Oklahoma USA for sharing that
Exactly a couple nice 360s to put you above mountains would be the only way to approach this airport exit
Yep, you cannot count on a piston aircraft to outclimb anything.
Never knew this….”corkscrew to obtain altitude prior to entering a mountain range”…”don’t fly the slope of the range”….
My first instructor cancelled a solo I had because I didn't calculate my density altitude and show her. I was furious because I was training in Florida at the time and never saw why it mattered so I thought I could just skip it for once. We had a long talk about it and she ended by saying "You have a license now but if you go rent in the mountains and burn into the side of one because of something I could prevent, then I can't forgive myself". Never forgot it. As an instructor myself now, if my students try to cut off the AWOS giving the density altitude in the remarks, I correct them every time.
I flew with Costas when he was a student and then got to work with him after he started instructing. He was a truly wonderful individual and a good pilot. I was crushed when I heard about the accident, especially because they had only made their marriage public a day or two before the crash. Living under 200 miles from Telluride and having trained jet pilots flying in and around the Rockies I was doubly crushed as soon as I looked at their ground track prior to the crash. Had he simply called me or several other pilots we both know we might have convinced him to not fly up that canyon.
One detail you didn’t mention is that they flew the scouting flight in the morning and likely had less fuel and baggage in the airplane than during the accident flight. Flying in cooler temps, lighter winds, and at a lighter weight would have made it seem like the second flight should be fine. Since the accident flight was the first leg of their trip home I can only image they loaded up on gas and baggage and then departed for their photo pass on their way out of town. Just tragic that this wound up happening but he is not the first friend I have lost to a simple mistake in an airplane.
I don’t care how many hours you have in any airplane you cannot get complacent and think you “know” what you are doing.
Thank you for this video, you really did a great job with it.
Yep, well said. Sorry for the loss of your friend.
Absolutely right! I have another view here too. Likely loaded up, but didn't they take two extra people with them on the first flight? That would have exceeded their final flight baggage weight probably. Likely carrying full complement of fuel. But the DA conditions and ridiculous winds with ever changing gusts and updrafts downdrafts would have increased later in the day. Increasing unseen danger. Unseen = less likely to appreciate.
Conditions were setup perfectly for this accident. Think about it: It was their once in a lifetime moment, their one chance here at this scene and they did not want to lose it. PIC could have been getting pressure from new wife also. All those other factors that get in the way of good safe decision making. Which one weighed the heaviest in the mind of the PIC? I'm voting kind of a 'get there itis.' They were on the scene of the incredible beauty, they were not going to be there ever again on their Honeymoon, they wanted to document the remembrance of this glory mission. They may have been making production for a YT vid also. Flew their first mission earlier in the day and made it.
There you have it. This mission just HAD to done. No question about it. They were going to do it.
Don't know that NTSB analyzed it on the PIC mindset and I have not read the report. I'm betting the investigators did not feel necessary to analyze the PIC judgment factors, but who knows. I hope NTSB did more than the bare minimum.
You could be spot on. Good analysis.
It was negligence. Sad but his own mistake and he killed his bride.
@@jarrod1332rip
I'm a retired medical doctor who owned a V35B in the '90s. I routinely flew my family into the Rockies for skiing and hiking. The first time I thought about flying to Telluride for the spectacular views, started to study the charts and plugged the flight into my rudimentary desktop simulator I said "No way!" Place is a death trap.
Yep totally! These 2 love birds graduated from the mile high to the 2 Mile High Club in a tragically expedited scenario!
Yeah oh wow your a medical doctor i know this is random question to ask but do u know about Atopic Dermatitus to slight touch because i have that and wondering if u have heard of that before.
@@M_Lopez_3D_Artist Only an idiot would be soliciting medical advice from CZcams comments. Go to the library and read a medical journal on your condition. visit a physicians office.
They don't call the Bonanza the "Doctor Killer" for no reason I guess!
@@thecaynuck Fork-tail doctor killer
I knew Lindz in highschool, and we were on the same team for a few years. This is such a tragedy. As someone who cared about her, even though we lost touch in our later years, I still wanted answers. Ive read articles about this, but they weren’t very informative. While this is difficult to watch, thanks for providing more details and for your explanations.
Yes he got really lucky, most women don’t wear black tights anymore.
Sorry for your loss.
@@jragon9215 WT F ?
I'm sorry for your loss!
@@jragon9215 and skin tight
I had a friend die in similar crash, a high elevation canyon crash with his instructor. I believe you are saving peoples lives with these videos. Great work.
I’m an ERAU grad. I know him well from his work with the ALPA ACE club. He was every student’s role model: Starting the ALPA ACE club as a student, working hard at the regionals before being one of the youngest to make the jump to the mainlines. We were all so terribly sad when it happened. Such a shame to have lost such a person in such a way.
I'm sorry for your loss. I know how hard it is to lose a good friend to an aviation accident.
I lost 3 colleagues in the same crash, just going for lunch in a R44.
Another example of Social Media distractions causing fatalities.
@@dawhikeyes, it is the equivalent of all those deaths because of trying to make a cool selfie
@@dawhikeSocial* distractions. You can't blame this on social media, they were taking photos to remember their wedding.
The minute you said Colorado, I knew it was gonna be a density altitude issue. This case was sad, but humbling bc it clearly shows that even skilled, respected pilots fall into this trap. Thanks for a good episode.
For me it was as soon as I saw the V tail of the Doctor Killer
First picture in the video
I don't know how old the engine was; did it produce the specification hp?
Colorado and 50 year old Bonanza. You couldn't pay me to get into one of these.
are you saying they deserved it?
That's my friend... miss you Costas. Unbelievably surreal to see videos like this popping up in my home feed... surreal in the worst way. He was truly the best of us... best kind of person. So kind, so caring, never judging anyone. He is deeply missed.
So sorry for your loss 🙏🏻😢
I’m sorry for the loss of your friend. 🙏
Sorry 😢❤
🕯️
Anything to say about the thumbnail of this video? It's pretty distasteful. Also, the channel owner is making a fat buck off of sensationalizing your friends' deaths. Of course you will never see a penny of that sweet ad revenue money go towards their funeral or their children.
I am a skydiver and I have watched many professional pilots who fly big jets struggle to fly a 182 with 4 jumpers on a hot summer day at sea level. Just because they can fly a big jet with lots of reserve power does not mean they can fly the small prop jobs.
4 Jumpers must have been 130 pound Girls.......182 cannot carry 4 jumpers plus pilot unless They are very small.............Paul
Density altitude can get you on a hot day anywhere. We have an airport here in central PA that is not that high but they have a rule about airspeed on the take off roll. Because it drops off at the end of the runway and planes have crashed because they didn't have lift.
@@frederickking1660 My son got his ppl at College Park. Which is your airport, Sir?
@frederickking1660 which airport I'm in Pa
If you are flying 4 skydivers with 2 chutes each out of a 182, that plane is way overloaded.
I lived in Telluride for several years and flew into and out of that airport multiple times..It's not for the faint of heart.The valley heading east from the town over Bridal Veil is very steep, very deceiving..It was a terrible day..He misjudged the terrain and didn't have the power to climb out.
Just a stupid question. Could those little planes benefit from having a Nos system (or KERS) to increase dramatically the power for emergency situations?, it doesn't matter if the engine gets damaged if that can make you climb fast an safe you.
Illegal deviation from type certificate. Not allowed.
@@JP-xd6fm
@@JP-xd6fm For a high performance aircraft engine which includes all turboprops, turbofans, and some piston props, the effect of such a system would be so negligible it wouldn't be worth it to install. For regular piston props, it might benefit from it, but it isn't something most pilots would bother installing unless they specifically wanted it. It probably costs a lot of money, and you really don't want to risk damaging an aircraft engine, especially in flight. The best thing to avoid these sorts of situations is good decision making. A pilot shouldn't put themselves in this position in the first place. I think some bush pilots will install systems like this in their bush planes for short takeoffs and steep climbs, which is helpful for bush flying(including mountain flying), but I'm not sure how much they do that for actual bush flying. I know they do it for STOL(short takeoff and landing) competitions.
@@JP-xd6fm Hello JP, sir I've use the Nitrous system in my race car. Yes instant power and a lot of it. Problem is I blew up 2 engines during my 1/4 run. So using it on any piston engine you can explode that engine, not a good thing AGL and for sure in mountains, IMO.
@@JP-xd6fm Seems way too risky to put on a single engine aircraft. They are extremely conservative with aircraft engine designs just because you can't just pull over to the side of the road if you throw a rod or break a timing belt or something like you can in a car. Which is why the output isn't very high on these engines to start with compared to what you see in a lot of ordinary cars these days.
When I was pursuing my ASEL, I talked to a retired United Pilot and told him I was going for a license. One thing that he said has always stuck in my mind. He told me to never fly a single engine aircraft that is normally aspirated at high altitudes in mountainous areas. I've always heeded his advice.
ASEL?
Airplane Single Engine Land
Don’t go to Alaska then.
Orrr over large bodies of water (especially at night)
@@KA-om9oz😅You don't know what you are talking about!
Like they say; the most dangerous pilots are the ones with thousands of hours or very few hours. Always fly a little bit scared. Be prepared.
The same with driving
I've never heard that before but it's so true.
A scared pilot is a safe pilot.
Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.
I sail a sailboat by myself. Every time I leave the dock for open water I'm terrified. It's a feeling that to this day I can't shake. And it only stops until the last dock line is tied and I have made it back.
Your debriefs should be mandatory viewing by all pilots . I have 14000 hours and I’m still learning valuable information from these debriefs.
I evaluate pilots on a regular basis in an area that is considered mountainous. It still amazes me how many I catch who don’t know how to calculate Density Altitude on their E6B and how it affects their airplane. Thank you for covering this story Hoover.
Honestly, even if you never ever bother to do that, if you just circle the airport til you get above the mountains, you almost never have to worry about all that tbh. Why people are so complacent I will never know.
Does anyone still use an E6B?
@@singleproppilot no kidding, that was such a ridiculous comment. Well said.
@@singleproppilotThose who do actually understand density altitude. 😁
@@LTVoyager I understand density altitude in a general sense. The specific go or no-go decision will always depend upon the current local conditions and the loading and performance abilities of the specific aircraft. OPs comment is relevant to me in that I bought an E6B from my flight school, yet never once did my instructor mention how to use it, even though I trained at 3,000 ft MSL, often with density altitudes around 8,000 ft in the summer. Flying a low performance trainer, you get used to just to it being a dog when it’s hot and high. In a Bonanza, it’s easy to get the impression that you have enough horsepower for anything, and you always will… until you don’t. I personally would not take off out of Telluride or Leadville without a turbocharger, but that’s an individual decision. Many pilots seem willing to take ever greater risks without even cracking open the POH to see if the airplane can do what they’re asking it to do. They just roll the dice. Dumb.
My pilot dad told me 50 years ago that the most important 2 things in flying are, the next 2 things. In other words, think ahead and always 'have an out'. That advice applies here and has served me well. I hope it helps everyone that I have passed that advice on to.
I am not a pilot but if I was I feel like that is some Dang good advice..
Was you Dad an airline pilot ?
Understood.
most important thing = DONT FLY because it's incredibly dangerous
Almost seems like they were talking over distracted since he flew almost straight into the mountain at the start of the “cockpit view”
I’m a retired Air Force strategic airlift pilot and I flew into La Paz Bolivia many times, as well as many other challenging places. You become an aircraft commander when you are in your mid-20s, flying all over the world. I remember thunderstorms in South America that would frighten the most seasoned pilot. Cat II approaches into Rhein Main after flying all night over North Atlantic. Air refueling at night or in bad weather when you HAD to get the gas. And then there were wonderful places like Kuwait when all the oil fires choked the sky, Sarajevo when they were shooting at you, and wonderful Mogadishu. But flying general aviation aircraft into terrain is something I will never forget. Your aircraft isn’t a T-38, and you have to know your limits. My heart goes out to the families. These two has people had so much to live for. Thanks for making videos like this.
Non pilots don't understand that every kind of flying has its own discreet skill set, and that just because a pilot has mastered one set of skills in one type of airplane doesn't mean they're safe to fly in others. Mountain flying is one of those special skills. RIP
Yes, the belief in a translation of skills by some kind of osmosis of ratings robs many pilots of life saving humility and curiosity. It certainly is one of the hazardous attitudes most commonly ignored in aviation by professional pilots and insurance companies.
New plane + New terrain = more training... PERIOD. Idc how many hours you have as a pilot. If you're unfamiliar with something new, there's no shame in asking for help & training! So sad, especially being they just got married and were beginning a new chapter 😢. Thanks Hoover for another excellent debrief!
Idc?
@@K1OIK "Idc" = "I don't care"
@@K1OIK idc = i don't care
1964 Beatles were new, not that plane.
Yep. Young, good looking, successful , but also very dumb. Another couple of rich , spoiled, catered to individuals gone 'before their time'
Can't say anything of value was lost.
It seems impossible this pilot, with his advanced training, would end up crashing. Yet another example of the multitude of scenarios one has to take into consideration to fly safely.
Mountain flying is completely different from regular flying. This guy had no clue what he was doing.
Big jet airliner pilots seem to end up in these situations on a regular basis.
@@EngineeredChannelYet there he was, flying around all over God's creation with his lovely fiancé, as if everything was peachy. Then... dead. Makes one wonder how many "experienced" pilots are out there, taking the world by the balls... 😵😵😵
@@mikel2283 Actually, big jet pilots almost never end up in these situations.
@@EngineeredChannel this should be pinned.
This breaks my heart because I have such respect for aviation and pilots. Such a lovely couple. My condolences to their families.
These debrief videos have made me a better driver and international traveler. My situational awareness is through the roof.
As a young man In 1981, I drove my 1970 Pontiac Catalina cross-country to LA. Climbing through the Rockies on I70, I was amazed at how the car's carbureted 400 cu" V8 struggled with the altitude. I also remember how thin the air felt, sticking my hand out the window at times during the drive, and this was mostly around 10,000'. Though not being a pilot, this sad story was very relatable.
Similar story with my 79 Toyota pickup truck. I had an Air fuel ratio guage hooked up on a wideband O2 sensor. It's a carbureted car obviously so all that does is tell ya what your ratio is. Bottoms out at 10 stoichiometric so as I went up the mountain just saw it getting richer and richer until it couldn't measure how rich it was anymore. Could just feel the lack of power as the engine bogged. Was really wondering if I would make it to the peak.
My brother had a one year old 1979 Ford econoline 150 van we moved to Denver from Ohio in 1980 we had only been there a couple weeks had not gotten engine adjusted for altitude. We was driving up pikes peak he had gas pedal to the floor we were going 10 mph wouldn't go any faster. Engine had no power.
@@doug3819we were* not we was
My Dad owned a '68 Pontiac Catalina with the same sized engine, 400 cu V8. It was powerful for a large heavy car but he always had a problem with overheating.
LOL in 1982 I drove cross country from WV to Santa Barbara, CA and when I got near Denver and started going UP HILL I thought my Cadillac was going to die! I stopped at a shop in Colorado Springs and the mechanic told me nothing to worry about....my EASTERN car was not set up for the western Mountains.....
Again, another crash analysis that presents the pilot and victims sympathetically. It’s easy to bring our emotions to a debrief where the consequences were so tragic, but you, unlike most other CZcams crash investigators, do a superior job maintaining the humanity of the pilot despite mistakes that seem easily avoided in hindsight. Your accident analysis videos are simply the best. Thank you.
You can see how much he cares about the people making mistakes. He's not there to judge, just help others avoid making the same mistakes.
That's all well and good, but it's entirely irrelevant. What matters is that the analysis and findings are ACCURATE and THOROUGH, not that they are accompanied with tea and sympathy. To the extent that any such analysis is softened and smoothed over to the extent that it camouflages the lesson(s) that need clear and direct explanation, then the analysis isn't helpful. I'm not saying that's the case here, only that you're distracting yourself with an aspect of the video that is entirely irrelevant.
Hoover, this is about the saddest video I have ever seen. I am your new "student", Charlie. ....A young couple just starting out. An excellent pilot, not yet ready for the mountains. Thank you for this very enlightening video. God bless them both.
Good job on this video, very informative. I'm not a pilot, but I worked on aircraft in the Air Force in the 70's. As part of the training, we learned a lot about lift, airspeed, thrust, all the basics of flight... But watching this video about mountain flying really makes me realize the enormous difference compared to "regular" flying. We've been to Colorado a few times on vacation, and I even noticed the difference in how my drone flew at higher altitude in thinner air.
When I was in the Army in Colorado Springs, I flew as a medic in a MEDEVAC unit. I assisted in the recovery of many victims who died as a result of flying in the mountains with little or no experience. It was sad and difficult work. I'll never forget those scenes.
I thank you for your service and bravery. I never could handle it. 💖
You’re really good at describing the events in ways that make sense to people who aren’t pilots. Thank you, Hoover.
Thank you for truly doing a great job teaching us about the conditions and the risk factors. Great work!
Hoover. You're a blessing to this space. Thank you for what you do.
Mr. Van Stiffler, Ground School Instructor, told us in class to “stay way clear of mountains”! That was in 1985 which was so very true then as it is today, and will always be. He also gave us a pearl of his wisdom: “The 180 degree turn is the BEST safety device”.
180 degree turn can also be the reason why you dieee. Don’t do things just because someone told you to. Do what’s best in your situation
I don't think I agree with Mr. Stiffler... In my opinion it's not about staying clear of mountains (would have been impossible as a pilot living in Switzerland anyway), but to apply safe tactics flying in and through them. This also leads to the other 'wisdom' he gave you: Yes, a 180 degree turn can be a life saver - it just depends on when and in what situation you decide on that 180 degree turn....
As Hoover already mentioned: Never ever fly in the middle of a canyon - and never ever approach a pass perpendicular for that matter. Always have enough 'surplus' altitude above a ridge or a pass and take downdrafts into account. And, yes, the effects of density altitude can never be under estimated. Greetings from Switzerland! Charles
I interpret the "180 degree turn" remark not as technical advice but, rather, as "If you're flying into danger turn around and go back"
@@DoudD I agree - the nuance is in the word "safety" rather than "emergency": I always think of the old adage "never try to fly back to the airfield if you are in trouble on takeoff" - and even that won't apply in every case...
if i see danger i turn 360 and walk away. life policy.
One of the things you learn (or relearn) when being checked out for mountain flying is that Vx and Vy are specified at sea level. Vx increases with altitude and Vy decreases. They converge at the absolute ceiling. A normally aspirated airplane at 13000 ft density altitude is close to its ceiling and Vx and Vy are nearly identical. Even a minor deviation in airspeed in either direction is enough to reduce climb performance, and that's if you know what the ideal speed is to begin with. Throw in turbulence, downdrafts, navigating adjacent to terrain, and a spike in load factor and stall speed associated with a turn... Well.
In all honesty, it's just better not to be there to begin with.
Thank you for sharing this!
It blows my mind the intricate knowledge needed for specific terrain ... then that changes in the blink of an eye to new challenges as you fly. I enjoyed your post!
Yup. I did the first half of my PP training in Colorado Springs (00V) and Jeffco. In a 160-horse 172 with two big guys on board, DA and severely anemic performance is always the first consideration.
All of this. And while those climb airspeeds are converging, the TAS is increasing with density altitude, which increases runway required, increases turn radius, and makes climb angles shallower for any given IAS when compared to ops at lower DAs.
Did this flight with my very first CFI before I moved across the country. It was a farewell flight and we planned on getting dinner in Telluride. After watching I feel kinda blessed. When we landed there was no one around and there was some bad weather coming in. We looked at forecasted weather and it looked bad. We decided to skip dinner and just head back to Utah. There was cross winds in opposite directions on each end of the runway. I'm not very religious but my CFI said a quick prayer before takeoff. We took off toward the mountain because the wind was slightly favoring that side. Probably the sketchiest flight I've ever been on. The terrain on takeoff felt so close. It felt like it was engulfing us. We managed to climb enough and do a choppy turn heading back out west, away from the mountain. We were tossed around by updrafts and downdrafts the entire flight. Finally got back in to Provo Utah and found an American Airlines plane that had diverted in to Provo due to weather. They don't fly in to Provo. We taxied and saw a bunch of worried instructors waiting for us to come in. At the time I remember feeling cool that I did those landings and takeoffs and put the crab method in to real action and an AA pilot pussed out but not us, we sent it in our little DA40. Now looking back that was idiotic. I'm very grateful that everything worked out and I learned exactly where limits should be set.
You don't need to be religious to belive in Jesus. Glory to God.
@@laurac9857, are you saying that Christianity is a sentiment or an ideology?
Airline pilots and military pilots make great airline and military pilots. If you do not fly a lot of general aviation, that experience does not always transfer over.
True statement coming from a former airline pilot and flight instructor.
Mountain flying is it's own thing. People NEED to get lots of mountain time with an INSTRUCTOR
This. I'm an aviation claims adjuster and airline pilots and military pilots who buy SEP aircraft are very risky. Moreso military pilots who have little time in pistons. I have more stories that I can put here but one was an F18 pilot who bought C-185 and flew it down to California from Alaska. His girlfriend was waiting for him at the airfield, and he did a carrier landing and flipped it upside down in front of her, totaling the aircraft. Jet aircraft have a lot of power, NA pistons you gotta respect.
airline pilots and military pilots make great airline and military pilots? i don't understand.
@@jdotsalter910 When getting my ratings at a flight school we had a very seasoned US Marine F-18 pilot come in to get his twin piston rating. We all thought he'd be the guy to be in and out in a day because of his vast experience in military jet flying. Suffice to say he had to take his check-ride 3 times to pass. We could hardly believe it.
Even looking at the simulation with mountains made me nervous. My husband and I lived in Arizona at 7,050 feet elevation for 20 years. Our home airport had a main runway of 8,000 feet. People would come up from Phoenix for a weekend and then go to leave in mid afternoon when it was hot. If someone was around when they were refueling, they’d be advised not to top off their tanks and advised which direction to turn so the terrain dropped away from them. Too many times we’d watch a plane use up the whole runway and sluggishly gain altitude while we watched holding our breath. Our plane was a Globe Swift. Whenever we were heading somewhere we’d travel light and leave early. I’m sorry about the loss of that young couple.
Wait a minute, you actually had a personal runway at home? That’s incredible. That must have been expensive? I didn’t know people could actually buy things like that.
@@MannysVisionStudioI think she meant her ‘hometown airport’ and it sounds like she’s in Flagstaff. And yes, millions of rich folks have runways at their homes. My dad helped one of his buddies build a runway for his small plane on his ranch in Las Vegas, NM.
@@Kaitlin_Elyse oh wow that’s too cool, I had no idea. Are you and your family from the Vegas area? I used to live there in the late 2000’s. Great place to live.
Does your father still make runways for people?
@@MannysVisionStudio If you have the money, you can do anything. And I’m talking Las Vegas, NM. High up in the mountains. Not Nevada. That was just a favor that he did for a friend, not what he does for work, so no lol.
I've been to Telluride and visited Bridal Veil Falls from the ground and that canyon and those mountains are no place for a non-turbo (single or twin engine )aircraft except perhaps in the most favorable weather and density altitude conditions. Such a profound tragedy for a young couple just starting out their lives together.
The falls can now be renamed to Mourning Veil Falls. 😥
Yea I agree. A 60 year old, normally aspirated single has no business being up there. Simply no margin for error in the mountains with that aircraft.
This seems a good place to ask this question that's been rattling around my noggin, why buy such an old plane in the first place? Wouldn't you want something contemporary and state of the art? Especially for a flight from FL to CO? With those mountains. I get that there's a nostalgic appeal to old cars and stuff. I don't know, just doesn't sound smart.
@@johnjones3813Probably the same reason people are driving around in older cars. They are more affordable and even if it doesn't accelerate as well to get ya on the freeway it still gets you to work.
@@johnjones3813because you can buy a bonanza for $70k and the plane you're describing costs $2M
A Colorado friend of mine, now deceased, had over 20,000 hours of experience flying small aircraft in the Colorado and Wyoming mountains. Despite his decades of mountain flying experience, he refused to fly in or out of Telluride airport. He called the airport a "deathtrap." I've driven over the 4WD trail over Ingram Pass (commonly known as Black Bear Pass)--the canyon where Bridal Veil Falls is located. "Experienced" or not, any pilot attempting to fly up that canyon in a small aircraft is making a very possibly fatal mistake, especially if the pilot is not an experienced mountain pilot and is flying when ambient air temperatures are warm.
I was a mechanic for a fracturizing company in the Rocky Mountains and even our turbocharged engines suffered greatly in the altitudes we operated at even making it necessary to assign more units to achieve the results we needed. My supervisor always said “ you have trouble breathing so do the engines “
I have visited this airport and it’s one of those if you mess up you’re probably dead. We were trying to fly there on a 172 with 180 hp and there is to peaks you have to fly through to get to that airport and when we got within a few miles of it, our plane started rapidly descending and then ascending because of the winds so we went ahead and turned around and not risk it and drove there instead. It’s definitely a sight to see in person.
Excellent decision making👏🏼
Ive done that flight many times but only in MSFS 2020. I chose a Citation and did many weather options. Tough terrain. I think skiing is overrated. Being a real pilot I’d have to have a real good reason to go somewhere like that.
We fly in rivers of air, especially in the mountains. Getting low power airplane mountain training is rare, but possible. The result of normal IFR type maintaining altitude in deserts and mountains in rough air is that we lose both altitude and ground speed over time. Try on course thermalling. Pitch up in updrafts for tremendous rates of climb. Pitch down in down drafts to both not stall and to fly through them quickly. Strong downdrafts, 2-5 thousand feet per minute, do not slam us into the ground. We could stall and fall however. If we pitch down and accelerate to Vmc, we will hit compressed air at around 200' AGL with a jolt. Of course your choice to turn around was a good one. We must respect terrain and have a down drainage out at all times. Hydraulics, ridge lift, is another place the wind is our friend. Telluride airport was not there when I was instructing in C-140 at Monte Vista, but we were able to cross high passes with low powered airplanes using wind energy.
Should they not have built an airport in such a dangerous area? I mean, if the margin for error is that bad?
That should have been not exceed Va in the dive through strong downdraft in rough air (last post). The airport is built with the safety of the mesa in mind. We can stay level in low ground effect until cruise and there are no obstructions to cause us to have to give up life giving airspeed in a pitch up. Down drainage egress to the west makes all this possible even in a tailwind. Every drop of rain and every melted snowflake has down drainage egress either to the Pacific or Gulf of Mexico in those mountains. This is a critical consideration everywhere in the mountains, but especially on takeoff. Again, normal ACS techniques are not adequate here.@@johnjones3813
We flew a Cessna 210 (normally aspirated) in & out of Telluride in the late summer a few times. Density altitude was a huge factor in our planning. We never took off with full fuel, and we planned our departure for just after sunrise, with cooler temperatures. By delaying their departure until after that first flight, and by refueling (did they top-off?) these guys definitely increased the challenges they were facing. Add to that their desire for some spectacular photos, and the outcome becomes tragically predictable. We think of this beautiful young couple often. Your debrief was beautifully done.
I’m not a pilot but an aviation enthusiast since I was young. These videos are excellent and the best on CZcams. After watching hundreds of crash investigations, I would never fly in the mountains with a normally aspirated engine. I’m so sorry for this young couple who were just starting their life together.
Thank you so much for your help 🙏 , surely this will prevent tragedies like this from happening again!
Thanks, Hoover, for making these situations understandable for non-pilots.
You bet!
I love listening to your debriefs. So knowledgeable. Thanks.
Retrospectives are always valuable.. Lifelong learning.
Love your posts. We can all learn from the mistakes. You are fair and balanced. Appreciate your posts.
Another example of your comment to the profession A+!
Early in my Flying life I took a Mountain flying class based in Knoxville,Tn. KDKX Island Home Airport. How blessed I was to experience the Smokey, Southern Appalachian and Cumberland Mts all before 100hrr TT
Ironically my Instructior was a grad of Embry Riddle Daytona and spoke of the draw backs of learning at Sea Level.
Thanks Sir
So sad. Thanks for sharing.
That was so desperately sad. Thank-you for your insights.
You’re doing a great thing here Hoover…..any pilot, young or old will be learning so much from your videos that may one day save their lives 👍🏻……This story is such a tragic, unnecessary crash killing two lovely young people with so much to live for, very sad….. if any of their family are reading this post, I’m so sorry for your loss 😢
Thank you, I have watched a few other channels “kind of” doing your same reports…your style is my favorite…the right blend of empathy, compassion and “criticism” and lessons intended to be derived from said criticism. I am 50YO…and have always had a love for aviation as my Great Grandfather and many of my Maternal Grandmothers uncles worked for and with Northwest airline in multiple capacities. My interest started when I was 7-8 when Great Grandpa “Wally” brought us to a family day in MSP where we got to tour a Northwest Airlines Hanger and see multiple planes in various stages of maintenance…the day ended with being able to board a plane that had just returned and meeting the pilots and sitting in the “pilots seats” of what I am assuming was a 737 type of plane…your military history is one of the largest reasons I consider your credibility a both above most…the military has process and manuals for nearly EVERYTHING…from how to fold you shirt and make your bed to overhaul procedures for a Blackhawk helicopter…processes and documentation are the ONLY way to learn how and to continue to fly an airplane. This is what I have learned from watching you , Dan G, Patey’s, T Palmer…just to name a few. I still hope to someday achieve the dream of flying and if I do it will in large thanks to people like you, teaching the right way. I feel like the common thread from most small airplane casualties is too much pride and self created urgency 😢
I don't care how good of a pilot you are, I am NOT getting on a small plane like that!
Yeah, me too. I would not be comfortable on the small civilian plane as well. Many of them are very old and modified many times too. The plane they were fly is 50+ years old at the time of the crash. I know professionals will say that doesn't matter, but I feel that the older plane will not respond or climb like it once did before just due to the many hours its been in flight.
Flying in high altitude terrain without a turbo is crazy. I've flown the T210 and P210. Having sea level manifold pressure at 20,000 feet is an incredible feeling, and a huge safety factor.
Early 90's I was a private pilot but driving a souped up turbo econobox loaded down to ski bum in the Rockies climbing up out of Denver on i70. This big American SUV driver (with his wife) thought he'd show my little rice burner what was up by gunning it. As I was coming from a flat Midwest plain state I learned then just how much difference a turbo makes.
What a tragedy, such a young couple, just married and a whole life together.
Thanks for the detailed video, it somehow hits harder knowing of these small crashes compared to an airliner crash.
Putting a face to the victims of a crash really makes you empathize more than unnamed faceless 100 people who die in a major crash.
Good video!
Accidents, in this case FATAL ones, show no prejudice or favor to newlyweds
Thanks for the video, extremely well done!
I would feel very safe flying with you. ✈️ Thank you for making great content!
So sad. Good job on this debrief Hoover, I couldnt agree more with it.
Good job on the general coverage of mountain flying problems, Hoover, but just a few more specifics. Mountain flying in small airplanes is mostly maneuvering flight. We actually have more horizontal space available limitations, generally, than vertical space available limitations. Wind management is important, especially for orographic lift, but down drainage egress can be more important. That is the reason for the local advice to take off down drainage. Vx and Vy join around 8,000 DA or so, but I think he was wanting to do a box canyon turnback for the photo opportunity. Something not taught in flight school that I emphasize in small airplanes in the mountains is when pulling back does not produce wanted climb, try pushing forward on the stick. In all maneuvering flight, airspeed and not altitude, is life. The basics of the canyon turnback are to fly up the ridge downwind of the valley or canyon. This provides both ridge lift, often much greater than what the small engine will produce alone, and positions us for a turn back using good wind management. By turning back into a headwind component, we reduce ground speed and reduce the radius of turn given the same bank angle. And finally, use the potential energy of altitude. The target of the turnback is not the opposite canyon wall. The target of the turnback is the bottom of the drainage. Turn at whatever bank is necessary to capture the bottom of the drainage in the pipper (windscreen) and release all back pressure on the yoke. Yes, dynamic neutral stability will cause the nose to pitch down just as it was designed to do to prevent stall. Make energy management use of all that vertical space available toward the drainage, not the opposite wall.
The real problem with energy management mountain training is that it violates most of the normal flying mountain training rules. No we are not going to meet altitude above and vertical distance from terrain rules to best manage natural energy. Vx and Vy climb profiles are not relevant given the greater thermal and orographic lift available in the mountains. Trying to maintain altitude will cause a net loss of both altitude and ground speed if we pitch down in updrafts and pitch up in downdrafts to maintain altitude. Acceleration level in low ground effect on the long runways in the mountains will equal at least 50% of the piston energy available in small airplanes. Ridge lift or thermal lift can easily equal three times the POH max rate of climb. ACS cover none but should cover all small airplane energy management techniques, especially in the mountains.
This reply needs to be pinned. The main point is not only that you must fly along the side of the valley, but the side that gives updraft and that is the same side that that one one makes the 180 you will turn into wind to reduce the turn radius and thus have the best safety margin to avoid the other side of the valley and keep clear of the down draft.
Also some very good aviation advice to use the down valley altitude to maintain aircraft performance in the turn.
Very interesting
The principles behind the energy management turn, the 1 g turn regardless of bank angle, are from Stick and Rudder. The law of the roller coaster . The airplane cannot stall itself. A pilot pulling back on the stick is required to stall. With zoom reserve airspeed we can climb wings level with or without engine. With potential energy of altitude traded for airspeed we can bank as much as needed. From resulting dive we can climb wings level back to near start altitude with or without engine. Airspeed for altitude, bank steeply or not while releasing back pressure, nose goes down to maintain trimmed airspeed, level wings on target, pitch back up to near start altitude. Power is none to fifty percent of energy used.
Great advice. So if need be, a max rate turn or 1.5g, or 2 g can be executed trading reduce performance with altitude. It wasn't included in my moderate mountain flying reviews. Also need to bear in my too close to the ridge line of the pass and there might not be as much clearance and any potential wind coming through the pass can be a down draft, so execute reverse option early.
Also if one is in clear skies, lower in the valley circle a couple of times to gain sufficient altitude rather than try to gain altitude climbing up the valley.
Energy management defines the flight in the hills .
Rip beautiful couple. Hope you are happy in heaven.great informative video. A reminder that even with the most experienced professionals, you just never know. Each day and moment is a gift.
Or hell
Thank you for bringing this to us.
✈️ This channel is by far the best aviation accident analysis content on CZcams or anywhere else. Your explanations are easy to understand and interesting to follow. Keep up the good work Hoover! ✈️
Awesome! Thank you so much!
I'm learning a lot of things. Truly interesting.
And there are a lot of great comments from viewers.
I have seen this on other channels, but your deeper explanation makes more sense now. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
I think you explain everything very well..good job sir
RIP to the young couple. I appreciate learning the points on each of these videos. Keep up the good work Hoover! I didn't think that the altitude would have such a great effect on the aircraft's performance.
Hey man, as a helicopter pilot that primarily operates in the black hills of South Dakota, I appreciate your insight and knowledge in these videos. Like most viewers, I had no idea this crash happened. These videos (of older crashes) are a good idea. Glad you got the CZcams problems worked out.
Hoover, your channel is so important to pilots and aviation geeks like me. Thank you for all you do. We can all learn from your debriefs. Much love you to❤❤
Thank you so much for sharing these wonderful videos! I find them very interesting.
Love how you phrased the new information.
It’s always hard to press the “like” button, on something this tragic, but I appreciate your work on these videos. Great intel and insight. Another point, you didn’t mention (or maybe I missed it) was that they fueled up prior to the second flight and might have been heavier than on the first? Not sure how much fuel they took or how much different their TOW was compared to the first flight after removal of 2 pax. I’m sure the DA was higher as the sun got higher. What a sad deal. Condolences to the affected families.
Think of it as not liking this story, but preventing the next one by boosting the algorithms.
@@mofayer amen. 👍🏻
Or think of it like this... you are not liking what happened, you are liking the effort invested behind the scenes to bring this video to you.
You press like because you like the quality, information, presentation, editing, anything about how creator made the video. Not because you like the outcome.
But I understand your sentiment, since it will instantly stimulate the algorhytm to show you more crash investigations, still, seems a shame not to reward the creator for his effort with something that will bring more visibility to said video.
It was worth your attention, it could be to others.
Thanks Hoover for sharing your insight and expertise ✈️ ✌️
Just subscribed. You explain everything very well. I love your channel
My heart breaks thinking about the last moments of this young couple. They look so happy and great people too! Even I am speechless without knowing them! VMC to IMC in the Slovakian Tatras took the life of my good friend just 10 months ago.. May your soul guys fly happy!
Vodka Fan, I very sorry for you're great loss! Take care, may they rest in peace..
So sorry to hear that. May they rest in peace.
so crazy. In the prime of their life, just fell in love. Just married. all that work they did in high school-etc.....for nothing. very humbling.
An excellent debrief as usual. I think an important lesson to be learned here is just how difficult mountain/bush flying is even for experienced pilots. What really matters is not the thickness of the logbook but the relevant experience to accomplish the mission at hand. Being skilled in one area of aviation does not mean you should go out and fly all missions. The first thing he should have considered is even flying into that airport/area without a turbocharged airplane.
Excellent - fascinating - gripping- I’ve watched two of your videos, and although I don’t fly, I found myself gripped by your explanation and commentary !
Nice work Hoover. Sad story indeed, but it helps other pilots see the dangers we all must recognize. 🙏
I remember when I flew out of Truckee, Ca in the High Sierras once, it was very frightening to me. Truckee sits at a high elevation and due to the high mountain peaks that surrounded us, I knew there was almost no room for the slightest error. Now, these are pilots that fly in and out of there all the time, but it was still frightening to me.
Thank you for sharing this!
Thanks for another great breakdown, Hoover. I know very little about aviation, but you're very good at explaining things thoroughly in ways that non-aviators can understand.
46 YR Telluride resident and 50 yr Pilot here.
Yes this was a photo shoot and the pilot badly screwed it up.
We call it " Kodak Courage" People doing stupid sh*t for a photo.
Another problem not mentioned by Hoovers very good report here is:
With the increase of True Airspeed comes a increase in Turn Radius.
The pilot SHOULD HAVE climbed several thousand feet higher if he insisted on doing this pass at Bridal Veil Falls. He Should Have left his wife on the ground.'
Then
Came in high and made the pass with plenty of energy [ speed + height } descending into the frame.
Rookie mistake, can't believe he took someone else along for this stunt much less his brand new wife.
There are several mountain flying maneuvers you have to have in your bag of knowledge to fly around in the high mountains, obviously this guy was way short on Mt flying time and high altitude skills.
I walked up to the crash scene and it was god awful, I feel for San Miguel Co search and rescue sheriffs Dept and family's involved, all for a picture!
There is this software called PHOTOSHOP
Way safer and easier.
Nick Kennedy
N 400LS
N 3817E
N 67 AE
STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION, BOZO!!!
Excellent comment. Thank you for being straight up about this tragic incident. You were there. This is your terrain, having a lifetime of experience with the nuanced weather conditions. You are the one to tell the story accurately.
In short, the cause of this tragedy? Male ego and it's expression of self-centeredness
@@higherresolution4490 Your last sentence ? I'd instead call it 'bad airmanship', and anyone can stray into it, but how far ?
Yes, that's why there are mountain flying courses. Good comment.
@@higherresolution4490, you have a problem with men?
Thanks Hoover. Another great video that is understandable to the ones with aviation interests and for the ones who are in aviation from student pilots to ATPs. It’s a video for anyone to learn from and hopefully, will save someone someday.
It's disheartening to witness yet another instance of a seasoned pilot succumbing to a critical error. As imperfect beings, none of us are immune to mistakes. Density altitude doesn't get enough attention by many pilots.
Disagree. Saying experienced pilots don't know that the higher you go combined with atmospheric conditions effect plane performance & characteristics is absurd to me. Dont buy most of these CZcams videos: "Experienced Pilot dumb, me smart. Look. We have data. He flew into the ground. Look! Says it right here. We have the data, ALL of the data.... oh wait. Maybe we do NOT have ALL of the data. Sick of these youtube videos. Me smart, pilot dumb.
@@jaredkinneyjrCan you be quiet? Like honestly, you’re rambling about absolutely nothing and nobody cares.
@@jaredkinneyjr Actually, I agree with you 100% regarding many of the CZcamsr's attitude. Pilot Debrief is an exception to me. He's respectful and doesn't deliver in a preaching way, as you put it, "Me smart, pilot dumb".
I bet those two thought they were indestructible, the Universe taught them what's real.
@@Danuxsy In my opinion, there was something weird about them eloping, too.
Sad. Thanks for the video
Hoover, thank you for your service and for these very informative debriefs. The simulation views were are great addition.
Thank you for doing a more in-depth analysis on this tragic incident.
Another Awsome video Hoover! Well done. Also, I'm glad you're keeping your videos in this 10 to 12 minute time format!
great video, expalined so much throughly
Hey man, i’m a learning student pilot and wanted to say your videos are super helpful to give me things to think about in terms of avoiding and dealing with catastrophic emergencies. I fly out of KARB in SE MI so I don’t have to deal with much terrain at all, but this was still super informative!
I used to work at Telluride airport. One of the most beautiful airports in the country. Also one of the most challenging. Even in the best of weather conditions.
I also heard that they were up there for a photo shoot on their way ‘out of town’. Heading up that canyon in a non turbo aircraft is a scary scenario. The mountains surrounding
T-ride are upwards of 14,000’ and will humble even the best of the best. Super sad story.
I live in Colorado and did my flight training in Boulder. Pretty much my instructor told me to stay out of the mountains. Later, I began taking a mountain flying course (not actually flew) and learned a lot, especially about box canyons, rising terrain, and as I recall, flying up the middle can also set you up for rotary turbulence, as the wind blows over the mountain and cool, it falls down the slope on the other side, then pushed back up the other side of the canyon. In the middle, where the air is falling on one side and rising on the other, you are essential flying through a horizontal vortex. Also, one needs to be aware of which side you are on, the rising air or falling air..... I determined, based on everything I learned and was told, to stay away from the mountains. It's just too risky.
Sounds wise.
Thanks again Hoov. Spot on in the aftrmath as usual.
You truly do an amazing job on these videos. Watching some similar type videos leaves me confused. However, your explanations are clear, concise and very informative. Great job!! I appreciate your time and efforts in the making of these videos.
Very tragic indeed, Hoover. This is a story with such a sad ending, especially for a young couple just starting their lives together. Thank you for the analysis--flying in the mountains has to be an additional challenge, even for experienced pilots.
Tragic. Very careful performance planning is required for this airport. A long list of potential threats to contend with. Great video. Thank you for sharing. Cheers.
You are absolutely amazing at explaining aviation! I would want you as my pilot each time I fly. Love your videos.
A valuable video, well documented for those who venture into high altitude terrain. Such a sad story about two lovely souls.
Living in Colorado my entire life, I think people take too much for granted here sometimes, and they want to “perform” risky behaviors, and never stop to take into consideration the terrain & how unforgiving it can be.
I the mountains around Telluride, you usually only get one shot.
My sincere & deepest condolences to all who knew & loved this couple. 🌹🌹
I am a student at the Epic Flight Academy in New Smyrna Beach, FL which is just south of ERAU. Yes, this is very busy airspace we fly in, but we have no terrain to worry about. Thank you for making this video.
Love Aviation thanks Hoover
Looking forward to your excellent videos 👍😎✈️🛩🛫🛬