EPISODE 90 - Tomboy at Tavistock: Ellie's Desistance Story
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- čas přidán 6. 10. 2022
- Quick Notes:
Ellie was a gender nonconforming 90s kid in the UK. She became a patient of what came to be the Gender Identity Development Services (GIDS) at Tavistock. She was seen at the time by Dr. DiCeglie, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, and the GIDS founder. Ellie describes her psychological treatment with him and her decision, early on in life, that medicalization simply was not an option. She tells us about her family life and coming to terms with being gay in her teens. Ellie is now married to her wife and living happily. But she also talks about gender dysphoria being something she, and many lesbians, simply learn to live with. She offers some fascinating insights about the way technology is used, and social media, in particular, can mimic a kind of schizophrenia experience, with too many competing voices and opinions influencing the minds of teens today. She tells us about being featured in a BBC2 children’s program as a kid, and you can see the CZcams video of this segment in the show notes. We also discuss the book Hannah Barnes has written, soon to be published, for which Ellie was interviewed. If you’ve ever wondered about the desistance literature and hoped to tie a more human, personal story to the statistics, then you’re going to appreciate this discussion with Ellie.
Links:
● BBC2 Short Film: • My life aged 11...gend...
Extended Notes
● From as early as two years old, Ellie rejected dress clothes.
● Ellie has a theory that her sister’s ability to get attention played a part in her gender dysphoria.
● Ellie thought life would be easier if she was a boy and only hung out with boys.
● Why does being a boy or a girl matter?
● Ellie’s mother was a nurse who was treated for a genital condition (DSD) when she was born.
● Ellie’s mother took her to GIDS at Tavistock to treat her gender dysphoria.
● DSD is caused by a recessive gene.
● Ellie’s parents were freely naked in the house and on vacation at nudist beaches.
● When approached with the idea, Ellie thought of medicalization and surgery as a ridiculous option.
● Ellie was treated by the doctor who founded GIDS at Tavistock.
● Some doctors are in the business for status.
● Entering puberty Ellie did have one influential female friend.
● Ellie’s doctor provided a Watchful Waiting period.
● Buffy the Vampire Slayer offered Ellie a glimpse into the idea that women could be superheroes and embody their power.
● Everyone naturally has a relationship with their gender.
● The thing, Ellie says, she desired from masculinity is to have height. Surgery couldn’t provide that.
● Gender dysphoria is not static. It is constantly changing.
● Ellie had unrequited crushes on straight girls but her first sexual encounters were with men because that is who approached her.
● Romantically Ellie is interested in women, physically she considers herself bisexual.
● Ellie considers social media to be a drug.
● Ellie was interviewed extensively for Hannah Brown’s upcoming book about the Tavistock Clinic.
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Visit rethinkime.org/ and genspect.org/ to learn more.
For more about our show: linktr.ee/WiderLensPod.
It chimed so well with me. As a 14-year-old in the 90s I was very often asked if I were a lesbian or there was something wrong with me. I was neither. I was a gender non-conforming young girl who was raised by an extremely misogynistic father and a narcissist mother who hated the fact I was young and good looking... I spent 3 years in grunge shirts and jeans, believing I couldn't be a woman, because I played bass, loved drums and had political ideas of my own. At that stage they were crap- I was only an adolescent. Now i am 45, married and coupled with an equally deranged jazz and metal freak. I still have political ideas, and I think they've somewhat matured. Or so I hope.
Another example of how gender dysphoria is a coping mechanism for adverse childhood experiences. Add in some biological factors of an individual w/ higher risk for psychological dysfunction and it’s a perfect storm. It’s exactly why hormonal and/or surgical intervention are inappropriate (and unethical) for treating someone w/ gender dysphoria. Cosmetic surgery doesn’t treat root causes of psychological conditions! I’m glad this person made it through GIDS in one piece!
From the notes, excellent point:; "Some doctors are in the business for status." This includes some of the "pioneers"
Loved this interview, thank you Ellie. I have a very gender non conforming young teenage niece who loves sport , plays rugby , does different sports everyday . I worry about her in the modern world because there seems to be so much pressure to conform or transition (maybe I am over imagining this is the case because I am so absorbed in the subject) I hope she can grow up with a healthy attitude like yours.
Thank you Ellie, this was such a great interview! I especially liked your take on the boundaries and now that being gay and lesbian is so much more acceptable in society (as it should be) that new boundaries are being sought. When I talk about this with friends (I have a gender questioning teenage girl who I think has ROGD so I do talk about if often!) I’ll say I feel like it’s the new rebellion; the new way to ‘find yourself’ and to detach yourself from your parents. I remember Stella saying in one interview that it’s like: ‘I’m so different from you that I’m actually a boy’ and that really hit home to me as I feel lots of my daughter’s actions are driven by this. I’m finding the teenage rebellion so difficult but listening to this podcast and to Benjamin Boyce (thank you for him btw, he’s great, I’ve really enjoyed listening to his podcasts too!) has helped me understand her more but also myself too and I hope it’s made me a more reasonable parent ha ha! Thanks again, I look forward to every podcast, I really enjoy listening. This should be a resource for schools, for sure
Hannah
Really interesting and the BBC film too! I agree with Ellie that more nuanced understanding is needed and often the truth lies between two points...Thank you Ellie, Stella and Sasha.
Great episode although I do disagree with one point that was made. Ellie said the boys don't experiment with bisexuality due to a stronger, societal homophobic response, but I don't think that's true (not entirely anyway). I think it's mainly due to the differences in the way that males & females experience sexual attraction. For men, erotic targets are much more clearly identified, definable, and concrete and it's often a visual stimulus (eg. breasts, butts, thighs, etc.). Female sexuality seems to be much more nebulous & fickle, especially in younger women who have little to no sexual experience. With the changing societal attitudes towards homosexuality, it's really not surprising why so many young women are now identifying as bisexual. Part of the reason is due to social incentivization, but it's also because young women just don't have a firm grasp on their sexual preferences yet. I think Stella said in an episode that she thinks the concept of "sexual orientation" is something that is derived more from the male perspective, and it really doesn't map on to the female experience quite as cleanly. I think that's probably true. My teenage daughter recently told me that nearly all of her female friends are bisexual and the rest are lesbians. All of them identify as LGBTQIA+ in one way or another. These labels seem to add more confusion than clarity for young women. I think they're looking for a category in which they can fit neatly into, but the truth is that they don't really fit neatly into any single one.
interesting interview, i'm glad Ellie escaped Tavistock apparently unscathed. mercifully i was born in 1963. i too was/am gender non-conforming, though not as strongly as Ellie. there's a picture of me dressed in a cowboy hat and holster at 3, i played a lot with my brothers toys, and my greatest wish was to play hockey (Canadian). i still remember very clearly the thrill of getting my first hockey stick for my birthday and the absolute devastation when somebody stole it. people saw me for who i was and were fine with it apparently. they just let me be who i was and with no labels that i recall, though as i got older there were occasional pointed comments from my mother. e.g. "why can't you sit down like a lady", when my brother and i ran into the house and flopped down on the couch. i complained that she never said anything to him. for special occasions i wore dresses and can't say i hated it but the last time i did wear one i was mocked by a nasty woman as i walked down the street--i was doing it my way and she literally turned and laughed and pointed at me, like it was a reasonable thing to do, until her friends stopped her.
yes, i'm gay and i do wear sports bras but mostly cuz they're the only ones i can get made of cotton--they're comfortable. i get mis-sexed a lot, and i used to be bothered by it because it's rather jarring and annoying because i am frustrated by the narrow ideas people have about how a woman, or man, should look. trans ideology only reinforces this narrowness--the last thing it is about is accepting people as they are. the homophobia, misogyny and other self-serving rationalizations that activists use to coerce adults and trans children is completely appalling and unforgivable, so many of us can have no tolerance for that "reasonable" place somewhere in the middle on this issue
Excellent interview. Really really interesting and an important conversation. Thank you
The video of Ellie really reminds me of my sister.
She hated the dresses from our Nanna, she loved sports, she wanted and got to have her hair cut short and wear practical clothes (I think she associated boyish looks/clothing with being able to get muddy and get involved in more adventurous games), she found the girls' toys boring and there was a mean bossy clique in her primary school class. Her best friends were boys. I also noticed that Ellie really wanted to distinguish herself from her girly sister and I think my sister had been told by other kids that girls are weak, girls can't play football etc. so she made a point of rejecting everything feminine and being associated with the girls at school. The only exception was being allowed to play female team sports. Unfortunately upon getting to secondary school there weren't any available (which shows how much we need to protect female sports and young girls getting access to sport).
The words/actions of my sister (I want to be a boy/wanting to be the third brother) would certainly be considered signs of being trans nowadays. I'm glad that the ideas of changing pronouns let alone puberty blockers weren't in common consciousness at the time. When puberty hit and the pressure to continue "presenting" as a boy eased naturally (because no one was reinforcing it or repeatedly asking her about it) it was naturally pushed into other pursuits as her understanding of becoming a woman showed as Ellie said that she didn't need to be a boy to be and do what she wanted.
Thank you all for this conversation. I'm not entirely sure if the term "desistance" accurately applies here: Ellie never socially transitioned; she was always seen as a girl by her family and friends. I view her story as one of coming to terms with herself as female and deciding to continue living as such, despite her persistent (though significantly reduced) gender dysphoria.
Ellie's psychological treatment with Dr. DiCeglie appears to follow the most recommended approach: he didn't push her toward any particular decision, but instead helped her comprehend the outcomes of transitioning and recognize that she can lead a fulfilling life as a woman if she chooses not to transition. Her mother's lifelong hormonal treatment for Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, as well as her mother's experience with genital surgeries as a child, may have contributed to Ellie's understanding of the challenges associated with undergoing such treatment herself.
Ellie's story made me think that sometimes there isn't a single correct choice. Nowadays there are many young people driven to transition, and while they could have lead satisfactory lives without undergoing transition, they may be content with their choice. On one hand, they confront health, social, and personal complexities; on the other hand, they do not experience gender dysphoria any longer. They might not come to regret their decision, just as Ellie doesn't regret hers. I may think that accepting one's biological reality and prioritizing overall bodily well-being is of high importance, but others might hold different sentiments. As long as they are making a thoughtful and informed decision, this might be a reasonable (though complicated) choice.
Thanks for sharing your insightful comment. Indeed, there are usually many ways to lead a satisfactory life. We just think people have the right to know that transition isn't the ONLY option and reconciling with your body is entirely possible for many.
@@widerlenspodhave you encountered a discussion in this channel about social reproduction theory
Ellie, very interesting detail is that you had Lenin in your house as a child! ;)
It was a gift but my father is keen to point out he is not a 'fan'. He just found this portrait of Lenin atypical & my uncle had brought it back from visiting Russia.
@@Ginger1509 Your short movie is great.
Please can we have some male desisting stories ?
Yes definitely. Check out Ritchie's story, and stay tuned for Calvin Lunt and a few others coming up