The Journey of No-Crank (Customer Stranded!)
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2023
- This 2010 Dodge Journey was having intermittent issues cranking over until it finally left the customer STRANDED at 135k miles!
He replaced the battery and the starter, but it still refused to crank!
Could it be a failing TIPM?
Let's DIAGNOSE the issue, and save the customer from another expensive Journey of the Parts Cannon... maybe even get it back on the road No Parts Required :)
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Enjoy!
Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Great vid ! The only discrepancy I see with the continuity test is your tapped in behind the plug instead of at the S post which caused you to miss the faulty plug at first, At the end of the Video you used the starter control wire as a ground but when you wiggled the wire the light didn’t go out, Not sure how you confirmed problem that way , would love to see you do a video on explaining your process with maybe a dry erase board , you have a lot to offer the community with your knowledge 😊
This is why I always prefer just using piercing probes rather than back probing. It's simply unreliable on some connectors- and can even short over into other pins too, which can really throw you off (as you've shown in other videos). Piercing probe and a dab of liquid tape= more reliable testing IMO.
Agreed 👍
Had a connector that had chasing my tail. Since then, I have never pierced a wire unless I'm testing from that end of the connector and into the harness. This one connector had green crusties right at the rubber back weather seal hidden in the wire insulation and when I pierced the wire right beside it, it tested fine and replaced a $400 alternator. Backpacking can be done incorrectly based on how much clearance you have but always test at the connector pin as well when possible.
I need some 6 have 2010 journey I don't have power in the ignition coils do you know what it powers up the coils?
Way to go NAPA. A very good reason why an old school parts house is better, they know which suppliers not to do business with by experiences from customers. We have an old family owned auto parts supply store nearby and they immediately stop doing bidness with suppliers who have too many failures. This enables them to supply customers with decent aftermarket suppliers so they don't have to deal with the trial and error issues. Many of the national chain stores simply deal with volume and who gets them the best supply but they usually fail to get the best delivered parts to their customers. SAVE THE OLD PARTS has always been a good idea at least for a period of time until the new junk proves itself. Probably that starter has a lifetime warranty but what good is that when you include the labor it takes to use the warranty.
I approve of this repair...
I wouldn't be so quick to blame Napa, Chrysler starters have always been junk especially in older ones, that distinctive Chrysler starter sound makes me cringe ever since my father bought a brand new 65 Newport, my friends father also had a Chrysler two in fact then another friend had a 70 charger and a 75 Newport, that said I'm lucky to have an armature shop nearby, I've known the owner for over forty years now, he also supplies a lot of shops in my area, unfortunately I don't think there are many around anymore
@Peter-pv8xx I've been a Mopar fan my whole life and have never had starter problems, but then again I don't live in the rust belt which would be a problem for everyone regardless of car brand.
When you said the owner replaced the starter my interest was piqued. May have been wrong but I would have gone straight to the starter to check the wires there. What's great is you always are methodical with tracking down wiring issues. Loved watching this one!
Bad connection at the starter S terminal is very common for Dodges. My wife's Jeep had the same issue. About every six months or so it would not crank. All you had to do was touch the connector and it would be good for another six months. I finally got around to replacing the connector and never had another problem with it.
The smallest part can give the most trouble. I hate those plug in connectors! Older starters had 2 bolt on connectors. The power and the signal, and they worked!
Good one Ivan! You got it!
And the power went uphill both ways! 😁
It's happened to me plenty of times where putting direct power to a faulty pin connection caused the circuit to complete. This could be caused by micro movement of the faulty pin to all of sudden make a proper connection.
These kinds of repairs are interesting. I had a wiring problem on a PT Cruiser and the mechanic replaced a bunch of sensors. I took the vehicle home and did a visual inspection of the wiring to all of those sensors and found where a wired had rubbed through giving an intermittent ground.
I literally threw some heat shrink on that section of wire, secured it with some good zip ties, completely fixed. I took it back to the mechanic and explained it to him.
His response was, well you approved the replacement of the parts, and i did what you asked me to do.
My reply was "you told me what was needed".
He said he didnt want me to come back and th a t his repairs were good.
🤣
Calholli; After being treated as you were, I expect you don't ever WANT to go back to that mechanic! I also expect you aren't going to recommend him to other people with car problems. I hope you got all your OEM sensors back from him so you can re-install them when the aftermarket junk sensors he put on fail.
Your approach and convergent problem solving method is flawless. The only way to be more efficient in your process is to apply the experiential knowledge of the customer information, "the starter was replaced". Then you could have suspected a damaged or poor connection at the starter and jumped there to eliminate termination issues at least do a quick visual and plug and play test. Great diagnosis as always, I always learn someting.
Yep.. Split the chain in half and it will tell you the direction.. Split it in half again, and repeat. That's the quickest way to narrow down to where it is.
Good call Ivan, if you just bent the tabs on the connector it will come back for sure. You made it better than OEM.
👍👍My first thought was a neutral safety switch - good logical steps, didn't see this one coming 😀I didn't know they were putting those kind of connectors on starter motors.
That's what is messing our 2010 up. Same issue with a caveat. Gives a huge solid "CLICK" when we try to start it, and then won't even try to turn. (3 garages blamed the starter and then the TIPM.) Turns out when it does this-we just put the transmission into "N" and then back to "P" a few times. It'll start every time.
We know the NSS is going wonky in the transmission- And that's where they put the stupid thing. Inside the Transmission! It'll cost a fortune to fix as it's ripping the front cover off the transmission, hamming out a roll pin...removing the switch. To access that assembly due to rust and crust is where the $$ comes into play..
Great way to track down and find a problem Ivan! Good work! 🔥
Many thanks to ya’ mate ! I’m getting a lot out of your high quality coaching / videos .
Absolutely love watching your videos Ivan they give me even more determination to specialise is auto diagnostics even though I work for a company. I love it. Learned so much of you. Keep those videos coming. Thanks again
I don’t know how you don’t go nuts finding these issues!
Nice job as always dude!!!! 👍👍
Great diagnosis Ivan! I have a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan, that had the exact same issues, and I went through a very similar diagnosis process. (Thanks to you and Eric O's Diagnostic help). Turns out I had an inconsistent ground at the TIPM. ( I also have other electrical gremlins going on with the radio at times). It's got 268K miles on it, and I don't like throwing a lot of money into it at this point. I solved the issue by making a ground strap out of 4 gauge wire and running it from the Battery Negative, to one of the starter bolts on the block. That was a year ago, and have never had the issue come back. that was about a $10 fix. Diagnosis is so much better than a parts cannon.
Ivan, the adventure continues! Thanks for Sharing! 😁😁🙂
Great find and NPR fix, Thanks for sharing! That's one of the most frustrating things when it starts working before you can narrow it down, good job on getting to the bottom of it👍
Excelente trabajo master todo muy detallado y echo Profesionalmente 💪👏👏 Saludos desde república Dominicana ❤ seguimos al tanto con sus videos de Diagnóstico
I had a 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan with exactly the same problem. It didn't have the fancy female spade connector assembly, just the connector in a plastic shell. The contacts had opened, so squeeze them together to fix. I also found the stud where the battery connects to the starter was loose, so I would experience partial power loss to the rest of the car. Tightening up the nut, fixed that issue.
Soldering a crimp on connector causes other problems. The solder wicks into the wire a short distance. At the transition from solder in the wire to no solder is a weak point. The solder free wire will flex but the solder will not. The wire will break at this point due to vibration. It's better to snip off the plastic insulator (after crimping) and add self-sealing heat shrink that goes from where the plastic was, to well past the end of the terminal (like 1"). This will provide a strain relief and keep the wire from breaking at the solder junction.
Thats why I only buy "naked" connectors.
@@_RiseAgainst I like "naked" connectors too xD
This is nonsense. Without the solder, the wire will just bend at the crimp. The best is naked crimp, solder, and shrinkwrap.
@@mikemurphy7519 I think that was the TLDR
@@mikemurphy7519 The weak part of the soldered terminal is the transition where the solder stops being wicked into the wire strands. This is what needs strain relieved, or it will break.
A properly crimped terminal will have a strain relief created by the plastic sleeve if it has a sleeve (which works OK in low vibration environments).
A good quality 'naked terminal' has two crimp areas. One is to crimp on the bare wire to make an electrical connection and the other is to crimp around the insulation to form a strain relief. You need the proper crimping tool for each type of terminal to crimp it properly.
The biggest issue with crimped terminals is people trying to crimp them with pliers, or dikes, or a vice, etc. Or trying to crimp a sleeved terminal with a crimper for 'naked terminals'.
We all get into the situation where we need to terminate a wire without the proper crimper, or all we have it solder on terminals. Either will work but you have to add the heat shrink as a strain relief.
So much fun to watch. Thanks Ivan!
On starters- once you verify that the relay and fuse box are good: I always jump straight to the starter itself, because 75% of the time it's going to be right there at the end of the wire. Either corroded or broken off of the connector, bad connection or simply a bad solenoid, etc. That wire is usually thick enough that: I don't think I've ever seen one broken. (except right at the eyelet at the end). Edit: Oh, you did but it tested fine at first; and sent you on a goose chase. It's always frustrating when that happens.
Your video was amazing, so well done and I’ll be able to find my issue from that, many thanks for it and your good humour cheers R
Ivan that was pretty dang awesome work!!!
Wow, that was tough situation finding the broken wire which wasn't that. Bad pin fitment! I probably wouldn't find the problem!! Great job test and diagnose it! Great job Ivan! I would throw that away lol. Hahaha
My 2009 journey was the same.. i had to delete the harness plug and put an eyelet connector as well.. probelm solved.. great video!!
While installing the piercing probe you fixed the problem, the back probe never made connection. When you plugged the harness back in the factory wire is what started the vehicle not the jumper. It's all variables in the diagnostics process. Good job figuring it out!
Glad you can see the bigger picture and make a repair which is more reliable than OEM. The stealership could never do this.
A variation of the green crusty. Very good catch on this diagnosis. I was confused. I was for sure it was an open circuit as well.
Work on cars fifty years and you still won’t see it all.
The red clip being broken should not have caused that. Either the first lock was broken so it was not engaged enough to make connection.
Either way your repair was the way the factory should have built it to begin with.
This was a very easy to diagnose problem. I know you slow it down to demonstrate to novices how you logically approach this diagnosis. Thanks. It helps young techs develop a sence of direction when they approach an electrical problem.
I had a problem with one of those junk Chrysler connectors on a PT cruiser starter. I eliminated the problem as well.
Bless Ivan, AWESOME 👏 video. Absolutely AWESOME 😎 Thanks 😊
Hi Ivan,
Most likely when you connected at the starter it tweaked the connector into making contact when you first started to get the car into the garage. Great it was almost an NPR. You did replace that connector with a ring terminal. Shame the started crapped out after two weeks.
Agree, connecting the probe "fixed" things.
Genius diagnostic.
Your getting to be a real blood hound finding the bad connections Ivan. Your getting pretty good at understanding where to look for problems logically following the schematic. I’m impressed
Just love those new "quality" parts from Napa. Had an alternator from there start overcharging after about 2 months and damage an Odyssey battery in the process.
I usually see it the other way, the battery goes bad and then the alternator starts overcharging. But I agree there all junk. 👍
One confounding issue-- That is like a 20 amp circuit and you were using like a 2-Amp test light. If the greenie crusties are like 10 Ohms or so, the light will mostly light but the circuit won't pass enough current to pull in the relay/solenoid.
Fair enough-- but the light was going all the way out, so it was still useful in this case.
If a 2A test light lights up brightly, the circuit will easily carry 20A :) Don't pay attention to the LoadPro guy and his resistance values haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Sorry, I'm an electrical engineer. Not to put too fine a point on it, a wire on a 2A test light that is "bright" could be dropping up to 2 volts or so. That would be a wire resistance of up to 1.5 Ohms or so. Which can only support about 4 Amps while dropping half the voltage. Doesn't quite pass the smell or Ohm's Law test. A starter solenoid, especially a rusty one, would need more than 6 volts to pull in firmly. You had the right intuition but not quite quatitatively close enough to be 100% sure.
@@georgegonzalez2476 in the real world its usually all or nothing... Have never come across a green crusty that would have a "bright" 4A light but fail to carry a 20A load 🙂
There are cases where voltage drop testing is necessary, but this case was either "good" or "open" circuit where a volt meter was not necessary 👍
I think I see what happened with the continuity test at 9:21, whoops! No wonder the test light didn't light 😅
i just spotted it lol good eye
Day one was definitely a different methodology.
Great diagnosis
You are the man. Great Job
Not only did the parts cannon backfire, but now their old good starter was sent back to India to get repainted, slapped with a new sticker and resold again to you at a reman price. The new reman starter died so now you have to cbange it again and have it warrantied at the parts store. Rinse and repeat until you by luck get a reman starter that lasts more than 2 weeks.
It's a fix, but we'll have to wait 13 years to see if it is more reliable than OEM---the OEM connector DID take 13 years to go bad, assuming of course the issue in the first place was the connector and not the Owner damaging the connector when replacing a dead starter.
Something tells me there won't be much left of that car in 13 more years of salt belt use.
I take ALL of my alternators and starters to my local rebuilder that has been in business 30 years, he does a thorough job , been burned too many times by parts store junk that's " refurbished " in Chiiina or Mexico despite the lifetime warranty .
That symptom was due to the intermittent nature of the issue. It could be bad one second, then shift just enough to be 'good' for the next test probe. Seen this with intermittent problems in home computers, forever! You are working on a computer system on wheels, so that makes it even more so. As shown (?) by your deep breath during a pause in the action. It's all good, Ivan!! Tear 'em up!
I hope you put shrink wrap on that end ,with those crimping and the location it will get the green crusty,but you very good job finding the spot 😊
Fixed nice connection
Paused at 15:10 I've seen a number of these where the signal wire connector on the starter just couldn't make a reliable connection. It's best to just replace it altogether with a good old fashioned eyelet connector.
Edit: I just finished watching. You must have done this before, eh Ivan? LOL But at least they won't have that problem ever again. Nice job.
Nice work Ivan, All things point to a rust-belt connector issue, IMHO.
Great vid as always, buddy
Dang, Back in the old days we never got junk parts. Now everything is made of chinesium.
Thank clinton and obama for sending usa manufacturing overseas
@@nickmalone3143moron, you can thank people wanting to buy the cheapest commodities. You seriously have no idea.
Maybe if American manufacturers would lower their prices, people would not resort to buying cheap Chinese knockoff parts.
@@wernerdanler2742 Yeah, and pay their workers the same the Chinese pay. Oh, wait . . .
Chinesium is not fault...you factory and traders needed that kind of quality to feed consumer society!? Also they use for that purpose AGING TECHNOLOGY.
Got to feel sorry for the owner who replaced the starter, he was almost there.
Thanks for demonstrating the logical fault finding process, broken wires, which this was not, are often very hard to find.
Dude you really need to start your own pay channel. You are super good.
Awesome video
Speculation, but what I think happened is: The starter WAS bad, maybe someone tested the starter plug with a stupid Power Probe and SPREAD out the contacts, and /or, they bought an aftermarket starter with a thinner blade pin and the starter plug was making false/no contact. Then they assumed it was something else. What I would have done is stress tested the wire and put like 2 headlight bulbs, make sure the false contact could take the current. Also maybe a thermal camera might pinpoint the weak contact. A high resistance contact would emit more infrared heat.
Usually when someone changes parts, I start diagnosing at the changed parts first. You would have done this faster if you started probing for voltage at the starter wire.
A solid fix of the problem. Today’s vehicles have hundreds of connections and this is a labor intensive effort when the vehicles are manufactured. If the UAW folks had to crimp and screw in each connector it would slow down the assembly line and cut into profits. I doubt you would ever see an original spade connection on a new vehicle.
Same thing happened on my 2012 grand cherokee I even changed the starter for no reason, its a chrysler problem, I just changed the connector.
Interesting journey here.
Wish I’d have known of your shop years ago, had a 2008 Dodge Caliber that had starting issues dealer had it for 2 weeks they did get it to start but the. Told me it needed a new TIPM for $1000. Said no give me the car back an tried checking the harness in front of engine because my wife had hit a deer and it pushed the radiator back into it, only had limited time to work on it because of having Togo to work myself. I did wind up getting a reman - Dorman TIPM from rock auto at a fraction of what the dealer wanted and it was very easy to replace, It did not solve the electrical gremlins we wound up trading it in to get away from it ! Would have brought it to you !
I like and admire your diagnostic techniques .want to know where you buy the head mount light please let me know
Good job😊
when we go to Mars you are chief engineer 100%
I might be wrong, but it looks like you tested for continuity on the Yellow/Violet without a power source - using the test light like it was an ohmmeter. Even if there was continuity, both sides of the test light would be at the same potential, and nothing would happen.
Bingo! Yes I connected the wrong end of the test light 😂
I do home electric I had one call and a neutral wire had no continuity replaced it worked fine took the wire home removed the insulation copper was still intact solid wire 14 gauge beep tested it with my meter had contact move wire lost contact but was still one piece
Many older cars had a single spade connector in the solenoid that would loosen with vibrations.
Opps; Checking continuity with power 9:29 through pierced starter wire lit test light but from no potential wire until keyed to start test light will not light.
As always I love the methodologies that you employ. One question; when you poke holes in wires do you real the holes up with something? Otherwise I believe you are asking for corrosion at each of those points.
It could be a bad crimp at the connector. I've seen where the crimp was done wrong and it sheared the wire.
Ivan -So funny, 1. different starter, different battery, diff ignition switch, different etc!! People just throw things at the wall--let's see what sticks!!!!!!!!! Different tires, check the radiator, fill the tank, new wipers, take the tint off the drivers window. Parts is parts.
Good job
had this issue on my 07 grand cherrokee corroded connector cleaned and dialectric greesed it never had another problem
Nice job. I just had my share of bad parts from 2 different supplier's 5 calipers bad from the box. Spend hours of redoing the same job over and over. Dealer OEM fix the problem. I'm done with reman parts. . Supplier's need to get it together. Lifetime warranty is nice but the time spent on a jobb for no reason is unjustified.
OMG! My mom had this issue on her 08 Wrangler (among 100 other issues). This drove us insane for years until she finally got rid of it. Absolutely no one could figure it out.
We had the exact same issue on my son's 2008 Dodge Avenger RT 3.5L. His starter was shot and had to replace but the connector for solenoid had to be pushed in very hard to lock in place. It seemed like an intermittent no crank.
I always check that connector first on any no start that the relay clicks...
Nice to-the-point diagnostic. Even being a relatively simple circuit, it still had a trick up its sleeve :-) The repair should last as much as the original connector (if it wasn't damaged by the person who replaced the starter). Did I see wrong, or when you checked for voltage at the starter, you had the bulk connector unplugged? I think there was no voltage bypass at that time :-)
Lol) a few years ago I solved exactly the same issue in the way you did. Might it be a common problem 🤔 I bet costumer was happy to know there was no parts required 😁
Like always good video Bill N LI NY
Enjoy your diagnosics. One thing though. I don't see how you function without a lift. Wouldn't that make your life so much easier?
I was surprised that you didn't test the continuity through C117, before pulling it apart.
99% sure. 24:47 time frame.
The problem is at the starter wire conector is crusty or broken at the backside of the wire.
I would have started testing from the starter backwards after i swaped the relay and looked at the fusable links or fuses as you call them either works 40 amps is high current 40 amp blade style fuses in a car are not used often a glass fuse would melt the solder connection inside the fuse older cars used a wire rated for it capablity to burn out by current draw so the rest of the system didnt melt. 650 cold crank amps from a car battery can melt any copper wire in a car if it shorts to ground causing it to heat to red hot setting the plastics on fire.
So a fuse stops it by buring out before the wires can get hot enough to glow red hot.
My bet is the spade connector off the starter has wire corrosion on the wire side of the conector from road salts if you wash your car after every snow storm and i mean totally wash it you knock most of the salts off everything, even the wires. Salt electric power and water make the right mixture to cause copper to corrode and build up the green crusty stuff.
Yes wash the car outside under neath and motor areas. You need to get all the salt off the car.
Whoever put that starter on, “killed” that connector! But I’m not blaming anyone.. those damn Chrysler connectors are a pain in the ass to get loose even with the “lock/unlock” feature.
Chrysler and dodge are notorious for bad earths due to the coating they put on the earth terminals . I haven't seen many with the actual connector issue , I would have have done the same repair , but no solder. Crimp is fine in a hot cold vibration environment.
Are you going to be in lower Michigan anytime soon? I have a 2016 transit 250 that won’t let the air come out of the a/c vents. Works on floor and defrost though.
The problem with any of today's cars wiring harness is these stupid plastic fittings or connectors they go brittle and brake off when you try to pull them out. nothing like the old great eye terminals, old school technique still the best.
Now that's my boy :-D, i would have powered the starter first Because i don't trust starters.
Or lights..or anything that annoys me lol.
Back feeding is fun, ok ok ill put a 5 amp fuse in the wire lol.
I have trust issue with back probes sometimes.
You asked where we would begin. I would begin with live data and check if the computer is seeing a start command from the ignition switch. If it is, that means.... that I should have started with the wiring diagram, because without knowing where the switch goes first, I haven't learned anything useful yet. 😂
It's very strange how a dedicated circuit wire color changes color(s) as it migrates through and in-line connector. Can someone from Chrysler tell me why?
To seal your eyelet fix, you could shrink on a long piece of dual wall heat shrink, large enough to seal the connection at the starter around the starter nut or bolt. Then seal any left over gaps with Grote Ultra-Seal to keep water out.
I can't believe a Chrysler product with 130k would have any electrical issues. They usually have such good wiring and electronics.
What u think about the foxwell scanner
swap relays, check the neutral safety switch.
24:20 My guess is the connector that actually bolts to the starter is broken internally
It’s all the logo 🤔😏😅
Could you have used a trace signal and just used the receiver down the harness until you loose the trace?
what type of relays do you use in dodge Chrysler jeep USA, China, Korea.
Aftermarket starters rebuilt in some Mexican sweatshop, with crappy parts made in some worse sweatshop in China! They are always in a nice fresh box/ and spotless on the outside of the unit. But lurking inside ... Hmmm?
Of all my issues with my 17-year-old caravan 3.3 it is like 70% cheap after-market starters that just crap out at the most inopportune times!
Tows are not cheap, even with CAA. You only get so many free ones. I always keep a hammer & a rubber mallet in my vehicle to bang the crap out of the unit at issue before I cry, uncle. Sometimes it actually works. Sort of like kicking the tires, but a little more violent!
Sometimes it just pays to go directly to the dealer, buy one from them and keep your fingers crossed.
Good sluth Ivan. You had me on the edge of my seat, or underneath my caravan 'looking' sweat pouring from my brow. Will I be next?
I really enjoy all the nasty snags you are brave enough to tackle. Two thumbs up sir.
17:22 You broke a golden rule of diagnosis. NEVER unplug a connector on a questionable wire. If the problem is corrosion at the contacts or a high contact resistance, congratulations, by moving the connections (Unplugging / plugging) you rub them together and disturb the corrosion - the fault temporarily vanishes and you end up confused. Piercing probes either side of the connector would reveal the issue which can then be corrected. Not saying that was the cause of problems in this case, but it can leave you chasing your tail.
Installing the probe close to the starter wiggled the wire and restored the connection haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I saw, drives you nuts when you accidentally 'fix' the issue mid diagnostic lol, or the act of unplugging / plugging a connector provides a temporary fix. The way I do it is test light at the relay or any fixed point if possible then do a wiggle test at the points I'm going to introduce the piercing probes. If the light comes on then I know wiggling the wire at that point restored the connection and I can focus there.
Yes it should work
you forgot to run that starter wire thru the radio and the abs module
2 wks for a replacement starter !!! Darn !!