What is the ULTIMATE Knife? Probably not what you think...
Vložit
- čas přidán 18. 04. 2019
- Designing the ultimate knife is tougher than you may think. In my opinion its the hardest part of knife making. Especially when you are designing a knife around a certain set of parameters, and those parameters contradict each other. Whats most important, light weight, edge retention, blade length, handle comfort, usability, toughness? The list goes on..
About⬇️
Hi, Im Alex, im a knife maker and CZcamsr, based out of southern Pennsylvania and my youtube channel is Outdoors55. This channel started as an outdoor backpacking channel, but quickly grew into a knife/ knife making channel. Everything I do on my channel is family friendly. I primarily focus on knife / knife making videos but occasionally throw in something different. Thank you for watching!😀
#knifemaking #knife #knifemaker #outdoors55
Knife Sharpening stuff I recommend ⬇️
amzn.to/2CnyFjl
amzn.to/2ETD3rN
GREAT BEGINNER SHARPENING STONES For Mirror polish⬇️
(usa) amzn.to/2SOCy9r
amzn.to/2PDqjOs
amzn.to/2PGfbQV
(canada) amzn.to/2AN5J67
amzn.to/2PKaTYA
amzn.to/2JFiBOd
(uk) amzn.to/2AMPB4o
amzn.to/2AM4kg2
Cheaper stones I use all the time⬇️
amzn.to/2EPU2vh
amzn.to/2Cmk1IW
amzn.to/2CkQlMz
Folding knives I recommend
Best value for the money⬇️
amzn.to/2lTFEcX love this knife!
Favorite knife as of now⬇️
amzn.to/2lQfE23
Best cheap fixed blade⬇️
amzn.to/2CND28e
Camera gear⬇️
Main camera amzn.to/2CAnaIA
other camera amzn.to/2CjteBP
Mic amzn.to/2CmZOmj
Other mic amzn.to/2ERSPUq
tripod I don't recommend but here it is anyway amzn.to/2COGboo
Action camera amzn.to/2JFoE5u
These are amazon affiliate links. - Jak na to + styl
"200 g is too much, I have to cut that in half for backpacking."
Me, probably 30 kg (60 lbs) overweight: Oh, I have a problem.
Yes
109 is too much because we need 85 brugh who will notice that while carrying a whole backpack.
@@taitrunkl7086 I am not an expert, but at the military the Sargeant told us that in a long march you notice every gram, it was because one of us wore his big gold Diesel watch before going on a march, and he said if this would be a 40 km march his arm would probably fall off, but it just was a 10 km march so it wasn't that bad. The next thing is that everything too much sums up quickly, depending on what you do you have a lot of stuff on you, and if everything is even slightly too heavy it can sum up to a point where you strongly notice it after a while.
@@Universal_Craftsman Ye but it's still a pair of socks weight we're talking about, I don't doubt that on a long march you should have the least amount of weight on you as possible, but paying another (over) $50 for lighter scales and other lighter steel when you literally already have a great knife just grams over your "limited wight" that was based on feeling not calculations or anything doesn't seem worth to me. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, I mean it's his youtube and his money and it's probably worth it to get 3 episodes out of 1 if he went with that knife, but for real life I don't think it's necessary, with that orange knife he'd be just fine.
@@taitrunkl7086 Your point makes sense off course.
My knife is probably the last place I'd personally choose to save on weight. I want a knife I can chop down a tree with. But the video was interesting. One thing that came to mind to me was that you could probably save some weight by using flared tubing as oppose to loveless bolts. You'd still have a mechanical connection due to the flare, but it would be a lot less material than loveless bolts.
I'm a fan of monster knives and have literally hundreds of amazing big blades. With that Said, over the kast few years I've learned I can do 90 percent of the same work with smaller, easier to sharpen blades, that are much lighter. Now I carry a martinni as my edc , and i do have some moras, I think they are great smaller lighter blades, but the style and craftsmanship of the martinni from finnland wins my favorite knife award, well for lighter knives, I do love my bowies. I'm a big man, work in the woods and live in the mouatins , weight doesn't bother me while hiking, I'm always walking and carrying stuff lol, but my kids and wife don't have that same strength, my sons will, but not yet, so these knives are perfect for them, razor sharp, tough as hell for the size and they are great for craving when your bored or need something made quickly or for fun.
I do a ridiculous amount of hiking in the mountains of Western Maine and NH
and the single most significant and noticeable weight change I've ever
experienced was when I went to lighter......shoes. I still applaud your quest
for a light durable fixed blade and I can't wait to see what you create.
what shoes do you prefer? and how durable are they?
i wear boots 24/7 and have always been happy with the protection, stability and durability. im genuinely curious as to what your experience has been.
I live in the Rocky's, I don't know about where you are but when I was in Missouri (Fort Leonard Wood) what they called mountains (Ozarks) we call foothills
@@Trickydickysticky I hear ya. 20+ years sheet metal worker, I wear Caterpillar steel toe boots every day.
@@krknfmkr8919 yeah, i started wearing boots fulltime when i was 14 on my first construction jobsite. never felt the need for anything different outside of football cleats.
im 25 now and haven't skipped a day haha. still it makes sense that weight on your feet lilely drains more energy then weight on your back, bigger tires kill your fuel economy and such...
i cant shake the idea that boots are the right place to "spend" the weight. people definately take their feet for granted.
also, one of my favorite sayings is
"a man should spend good money on 2 things, his boots and his bed. because if hes not in one hes in the other."
There's a Dutch company called 'Haix', they make some of the best boots out there.
I’ve advertised for Mora knives for years, I’m a barber and a customer told me he was skinning a bear next to a buddy and he said he had to sharpen his knife 3-4 times but his buddy never stopped skinning so my customer is a believer now! Lol Swedish metal is very good
Is Mora the same company that makes ice augers? Because thier auger blades are scary sharp.
@@scottyj6226 that makes me wonder now since they are very far north and needing to drill in ice is not rare for them. And Mora makes more cutting tools than about everyone.
I have a Mora cheapo and it's a great knife and I dare say the best knife you can buy for the money. I paid $10 for mine.
@@BobSmith-kd6lq I've searched for years. Have never found anything that competes with a Mora basic for the money. So now I collect them, and make customs for friends and customers.
@@Danielson1818 Nice
I love my Mora Basic, it's my favourite knife regardless of cost, since I'm a UK hunter which is basically just field dressing rabbits, pigeons, squirrels etc, I don't need to baton or start fires etc. So it's literally perfect.
I have been carrying the exact same knife for years - and I've had plenty of knife snobs make comment about it. The batoning is a legit drawback - but I have stopped doing that and begun making feather sticks instead. It works great for that, and I can even start fires with damp wood!
I used to go backpacking with a small cast iron pan strapped to my backpack, and I caught a lot of grief from guys who would spend an incredible amount of money on freeze-dried foods and paper-thin, flimsy cookware, to save a few ounces of weight. But you'd be amazed how they lined up in the evenings to use my pan when I was done with it....
Couldn’t you save the $50, give it to your buddy and have him carry your backbreaking knife for you? Problem solved. You have a nice knife to use, you’re 3.5 ounces lighter and not just a fraction of an ounce, and your buddy is richer and in better shape. I’m really good at problem solving.
My buddies are on to that😂
He can't have his buddies carry his knife. This is a 'hold my beer' moment.
Lol!
@@garrycollins3415 brilliant comments.Lol.
Lol taking off your jacket and leaving it would save more weight
That Mora is awesome, I use them daily
I carried the Mora companion for years when I lived in the pacific North West.
personally, i'm not concerned with the weight of my knife. love that knife ! cool concept though, wish you success.
How about you just befriend a beaver? You won't have to carry it, just attach a leash. It can fulfill all your wood processing requirements!
Up here (In Canada), we simply call this "Proving your citizenship." Plus, if your pet Polar Bear gets lonely, he has a buddy to play with. Aaand if he gets hungry...
I had thought the presenter was Ukrainian. I had no idea Beavers even lived in the Ukrainian
@@davidduffy9806 Hmmm yeah I get your point... Nobody likes paying for shipping
@@ahmedshakir6967 Not a good idea I personally have had many Beavers as friends/companions and it always the same thing, lets go shopping, buy me stuff,where are you taking me for dinner, I want a ring, my mother said....Wholly crap ! You are better off NOT getting Beavers involved in anything.
@@kanehunter23 What about a platypus?
The ultimate knife is always going to be a custom made knife to suit your particular needs :P
Or a box of unopened moras
Man, I am super excited to see what comes of this project. I just finished my woodelore clone and the difference in weight to my previous backpacker is incredible. I can’t imagine a completely usable knife under 3oz. Good luck brother!
I mean .... Throughout the indigenous world over, the tribal people usually carry 3 blades of varying sizes. Their life is in nature all times and they almost always carry a small knife. The western ideology of knives is silly at best.
Hi, I see this is from 3 years ago. Do you still have the knife. Did you sell it? How big was it? Do you have a video on your channel about making it? I looked, but couldn't find one
I have a chest full of knives. The MORA #1 was my EDC for a few years before I went to a multi tool. Shape as hell, cheap and worth it. I still use that MORA at least once a day.
I decided to reduce weight in my backpack by removing other items which I could do without and keep a decent knife on my utility belt and a decent bedding also.
But, but....my snivel gear!
But.. but.. my cast iron skillet.
You can still skeletonize the handle after epoxy. Maybe 5/16" to 3/8" holes. Three or four would help drastically reduce the weight.
I have thought about that. I may use carbon fiber tubing to fill the holes. It would definitely cut a couple tenths😀👍👍
Great video man! Looking forward to seeing where you go with this 👍
Seems I ventured down a rabbit hole... this is turning out to be complicated 😂 Thanks for watching my friend 👊
@@OUTDOORS55 this is a pretty steezy vid thanks for sharing dude
I'm rooting for, and heckling you at the same time.
I love how much this guys loves his knives.
I know right, it made me subscribe
@@Gin132456 same
That's very true. Mora basic carbon is the knife. Got them three.
Moraknive sells blade blanks. I just ordered one and am going to make my own handle for it. No idea what kind of steel it is, but I just want to try and make the handle as my foray into knife making.
If it's stainless, it's 12C27. If it's carbon steel, it's UHB-20C which is a European version of 1095 with a bit of silicone added in which gives the knife a bit more flexibility.
@@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies silicone? like, the polymer?
@@benjaminb1319 Sorry, that "e" should not be at the end. Silicon, the element silicon with an atomic weight of 14.
@@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies lol that was what I was thinking .
@@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies and the atomic mass of silicon is 28.09, atoms are far too small to find the true weight.
I few ideas came to me watching this! Taper the tang, use carbon fibre or aluminium pins and maybe wood is a lighter handle material? I was thinking about beech or birch for handle scales.
I really enjoyed this one - thanks for talking us through the design stage.
I’ve been using a morakniv 4.1 inch for a few years now, and it has not disappointed. Retains its blade, even after many uses, like woodcarving and general cutting
excited for this project. you might want to consider leaving 1 or more diagonal pieces of metal in the center of the hollowed out handle to add some rigidity. like a truss bridge. contouring your handle even more than the prototype might help as well. my concern with thinner stock is that you want a wedge shape to separate the wood while batoning. a thin knife will have a tendency to get stuck. perhaps you can get away with a thicker stock knife that is less tall to save weight (meaning from cutting edge to spine). maybe with a scandi grind?
Daniel Boone would laugh at the term "light weight gear".
Daniel Boone lived in a harsh reality and never laughed at terms. He never laughed, but might have lifted his eyebrows.
I really like this. Incredible attention to detail, copious amounts of knives, and you really know what you're talking about.
love this video. I'm working with knife design myself so I love this challenge you set yourself
Okay, you have my full attention. 😲
This is something I've thought about before, so, can't wait for the next installment! 👍
Same here. Im already dreading the wait or missing it when it comes out
Happy to hear of your plan to go much thinner! I just bought a knife from a small, up-and-coming custom maker. It's 0.072'' thick CruWear with a scandi grind. Even thinner than a Mora basic. I haven't used it much yet, but I'm really excited to try it out. Seems perfect for my normal hiking/backpacking use.
I hear excellent things about the toughness of CPM 1V. Maybe look into that?
I want more of this! You’re definitely into it
As some others have said, tapering the handle a bit, adding some jimping, and maybe removing part of the scales in the center where you cut the steel.
Generally, I would say that "I want a knife that does a thing and meet a certain criteria, and it also happens to be an interesting engineering puzzle" is a good enough reason as any to make a knife.
Very true, that said you probably win more weight reduction by having a good shit being going on the hike.
Take a look at the construction of the scales on the dpx hest original, they're slightly smaller than the tang itself (surprisingly comfortable) and they've been hollowed out for storage. Could shave a bit of weight that way. And I've seen some designs where the tang tapers off towards the back, likely for balancing but also would shave some grams. Good luck with your diet!
Can’t wait for the next video. Thanks Alex!!
Always doing great stuff man. Love your content! Keep up the good work
I've had a mora robust for a while and the only thing I would change about is adding just a little bit of length, looks like your ultimate knife is pretty much what I'd want out of mine as well
I love my Mora Robust. If all you want is slightly more length, then they also make a thicker version of the Mora Companion. It's called the Companion HD (heavy duty). Less than $25.
@@Danielson1818 Yep , the HD is no less than a fantastic knife , and it is plenty strong enough to baton on . In destruction tests it does as good or better than many much more expensive knives .
I can send you a carbon fiber plate from the aircraft plant I used to work at, it's about 12x12x 1/4" thick
(just creamed pants)... (wishes it was sent to me...) yeah...
Sign me up too
I would make you one and me one,,, ole fart Jimmy
@Toni Niemi the replacement blade knives are extremely awesome for that
The reason you used to work there? Because they were coming up short on supplies?
Not finding the perfect knife for me personally is exactly why I started making knives. Watching your journey has helped me immensely. Thank you.
Thanks for taking the time to watch! It's always appreciated 👍👊
I can't wait to see where this goes. Very cool project. The toughness testing should be fun. Good luck!
What about a tapered tang? I'm also thinking about using a light wood. It would be a lot cheaper than carbon fiber and maybe even lighter.
Balsa wood is light but can be dented with a bit of pressure with your fingernail so...
@@ssunfish there are a ton of good choices for this. Balsa is not the wood to use for that regardless of weight. Don't understand why you even mentioned it
I was about to say something about tapering the tang but it would be harder to make a the scales though.
@@ssunfish There are tons of ways to just make a durable shell around the soft wood.
How ya gonna stop the tang from wallowing out the balsa internally?
I'm all for designing your own knife, and I know you'll do a fantastic job, but I myself personally wouldn't be able to tell or physically notice the difference of 5 ounces in my bag. I'd happily carry the larger knife no matter what kind of hiking or camping I'm doing.
I sell some hiking stuff at my store and and the lengths people go to in order to save a gram of weight is astounding. Squirting toothpaste dollops onto wax paper then letting them dry. I guess all the water in the toothpaste is too heavy.
I agree with you honestly but I think the idea is three items that are 5 ounces less is basically a pound --- so if you take 5 ounces off 9 items you've lost 3 pounds - and my pace is 64 steps per 100 meters--- so that is 3 pounds EVERY step or 192 for all the steps in just 100 meters. Again I DO agree I just carry the weight but then I just camp and do short hikes out to my locations in minimal mountainous terrain
@@mikemcg3921 i had no idea people count paces and such. To me that's too serious, I'm not hating byt that is news to me.
@@Arthurian. I'm not sure he does count paces, lol. I was a surveyor for years and it takes me 36-37 steps to go 100 feet. That's about 115 steps for 100 meters. Accomplishing that in only 64 steps seems unrealistic, unless he is 10 foot tall.
The online knife community is very obsessed with knife weight. They see very small knives like a Spyderco Native, para 3, and even the lil native or dragonfly as monstrously bulky weapons of war. I think they eventually want all knives to have hollow plastic handles and blade geometry like a box cutter razor. It's almost as if they despise durability. And of course, many of them believe that if the knife breaks for ANY reason it's because you were using it wrong. Lol
Great work. Looking forward to the next steps
Such a cliffhanger!!! Cant wait for the follow up video!!
How much for the orange 1084 prototype?
My Mora 2000 lives in my haversack, for day excursions, it's maybe just a packet of chewing gum heavier than your specifications. !! Lol,,,
If you can nail down your parameters, I'll buy one, for sure,, (but only if it's stainless,, 12C27 ?),
ha ha,, can't wait for the next installment,, cheers,,,,
I like the Mora 2000 a lot, best Morakniv IMO
Criminally underrated channel. Maybe try G10 pins instead of brass. Drill countersunk lightening holes above the grind line?
This is awesome, can't wait to see this unfold 🤘
Okay so I'm a lazy slob but a morakniv robust would seem to come close enough to me to meeting your standard and they are cheap.
Have the 511 and love it... Ended up buying the kansbol great knife.
@@chrissexton6634 I agree it is a great all around knife.
once you get your mars station knife figured out.. kickstart the sucker cuz I want one. ;-)
The first knife with the orange handle is beautiful
I'm not a knife person, but I have repeatedly come back to Mora and Spyderco over the last 20 years. They are generally a good value for what you are getting. Not much more I could ask for. It is reassuring coming to knife channels and them being commonly used.
Hollow grind would take out more material than a convex
Yea, I was thinking the same too
...Not good for batoning
Right, I have no clue why he says convex would shave off weight... It has more material than even a flat grind. The reason his convex is lighter is just because he also increased the primary bevel height up to the spine
love the idea. sounds like a great knife. For me though, id rather save weight elsewhere over my knife. This is coming from a guy who carries a kukri though lol
Asa Holloway same here
The kukri gives you a irl style bonus
I totally agree with you on the paracord only handles speech. Haha.
I use the Mora Classic no. 2. I love that for camping. Feathersticks, battoning kindling, etc...
I made my own bushcraft knife because I couldn't find anything like it.
It has 4.5" long, 3/16th" thick 1095 blade, chisel grind, full tang, and a hole in the center of the blade 1.5" from the end. Weird, I know.
Why it works for me:
- It can cut, whittle, skin, batton, strike ferro, and do anything any other knife can do, just about as well.
- However, It can also function really well as a chisel, and be added to a quick bushcraft hand plane.
- The hole at the end is great for cutting small dowels, or even wire.
- The hole mates up to a hole in the kydex sheath that lets me flip the sheath and pin it with a dowel, giving me handles at both ends of the knife to act as a really good draw knife.
It has really changed my bushcraft game.
Make a walking stick knife. Then the weight won’t be a issue. When hiking or in the woods you can’t skimp in a good knife and pistol
Hollow carbon fiber pins are not expensive, and much lighter than your brass pins !
Well done brother. Looking forward to the next installment.
Great video and looks like your having a lot of fun with this one.
Idk... My 45 is a lot heavier and I happily carry that all the time.
Right, don't give us lame excuses about why you need a light knife with a solid handle, just tell us how to you'd make one.
@@johnwamsley1896 It is funny how time makes a fool out of one... I started carrying my 22 cause it is lighter and has more rounds... I would take everything the lightest possible now...
How well does it make a campfire? (like a good knife can) ...different priorities I guess.
Don't be scared homie!
@@dirtysouthbushcraftandmma9784, BINGO!. The video is about making a knife that works for hiking and camping, not about being so afraid that one feels he needs a large caliber firearm at his side. ...thus my question about his big gun whittling wood into kindling. Some of us go hiking all the time and rarely carry a sidearm or long rifle.
Excellent video my friend, that's food for thought or is it fool for thought.?Just buy a Mora companion knife that's all I use hunting or fishing or hiking and a black plastic sack and Butchers twine.I leave all my rifles and my huge knife collection in the gun room,i just subbed.Stay safe.
The companion doesn't fit the design parameters i set in the video. Its not about the mora. It's about designing a knife to fit a specific use and specifications. Hope this helps make sense of this video 🙂 Thanks for the comment! And the sub! It's always appreciated 👍👍👊
I really like the first test blade. Nice job.
Makes me think of the story of the guy who was the first guy to make it across the Atlantic Ocean and he cut PARTS OF HIS MAP OFF TO SAVE ON WEIGHT
Taper the handle to shave off a few grams of weight
Sameone wtf🤨
@Sameone that's super irrelevant. Why does your body shape have to do with how light you want your knife to be?
@Sameone Weight moves weight.
TheCooperman666 actin and myosin fibers move weight. Fat is part of the weight that is moved.
**heavy breathing and watching with interest**
Lol😂 i will make one under 3oz, i will!!😂
Hey Alex I really like that first prototype. That is a great idea for an ultra light and very capable knife. I would not complain at all about the weight either but I’m still interested to see what you come up with. Great video! 👍🏼
I agree 100% on the weight. When I first started on hunting, I geeked out on specs of my shot gun and wanted to have the best with me but I learnt quickly that after a few hours walking in the rainforest, the weight can feel 2-3x the actual weight. That adds up when you need to carry your animal back, it's crazy. Now when I shop, I see first is the weight. It has to be some of the lightest I can find and the specs would be secondary. As long as it doesn't get lots of complains, I'm good to go. I'd get a light knife too when I'm walking that long and far
@outdoors55 can I have the prototype 😐
IKR, some of us ain't as worried about that 1 ounce 😂
First comment. Nice vid Alex. Can you do a vid where you show how to convert a v edge into a convex? Thx
Very cool project! Putting the work in to make the ideal design is worth it for sure. #greatness
Looking forward to seeing what the super knife winds up looking and cutting like...
All depends on intended use, there is no ultimate universal knife.
I've got it a Bladeless knife without a handle.No,no don't thank me your welcome.
The Mora might look like something the cat dragged in, but, don’t forget that it was designed for the Swedish army. We used it in extreme conditions and cold weather, abused it, batoned it, splinted wood and everything that you can and can’t do with a knife. And it held up. It endured the torture of nordic mountain ranger service. It looks like a toy but it does what it was designed to do. It’s a light, versatile and virtually indestructible knife which is unbeatably cheap to produce in mass production. Bam💥, Swedish FMV (Försvarets Materielverk) did it again. Brilliant engineering.
I used to go backpacking for around a month more or less every summer. However I definitely didn't hike 15+miles every day, I didn't even hike every day. When I found a nice spot near a nice trout hole or a waterfall swimming hole I would spend 2-4 days enjoying that place and that was the best thing about having no schedule, phone, or companions for the trip. That 25-30 days of relaxing, solitary, self reliance and freedom made the rest of the year much more tolerable and kept me in a much better place mentally. Anyway people who spend their vacation behaving like a drill instructor was barking at them make me confused and suspicious.
Eat your Wheaties. And hike with dehydrated water in your canteen. Ha.
Steven Wright: " I was going to buy some dehydrated water, but I didn't know what to add...."
Love the edits, full value
I actually got to the end and wanted more
Thanks for the education!
No pain No gain...carry the Heaviest Knife ALWAYS! 💪🏼
I absolutely love the first knife you've made!!!!....and it's orange!!
You got me hooked with this proyect!
Amazing to see handles that weigh more than my city backpack knife.
I totally agree with all this extra paracord stuff like boot laces and all that I feel the same about messing something up for some cordage.
I love my Mora. Super sharp and cheap. You can beat the crap out of it and not fret about it.
Incredible places you hike to.
Alex, you don't have to explain it to anyone, if you want to try and make it, good luck, I'm with you all the way!
great project cant wait to see it
Ahh geeky knife video…exactly what I was looking for!
I'de love to buy one of these from you once you're finished.
congratulations on this entertaining video. you are getting better every time. i am a big fan.
Great project!
Great vid. I like the Mora Basic handle. I would start there. A lite comfortable handle that really fits your hand. Yes I know everyone is a critic.
excited to see what you come up with.
Dude you’re super funny. Killing it. Thanks for the vids.
gosh, i can't believe how interesting this is! i must be a knife geek, but it wasn't endlessly fascinating. i think i must have the illness. i learned a lot. thanks.
"Rest of the world"-measurements.
Appreciate you are including these! 😂
Mora is the best, inexpensive knife I’ve used. It’s a good value.
I understand your design challenge, bu tat 76 I'm to damn old to start worrying about weight now never did even think about weight until I started watching you tube . When I was taught about living in the out doors staying for a few weeks or more in the mountains weight was just not talked about we just took what we needed and dealt with it . I't's for the young to deal with ounces not me but we really like your knives and the way you make your video's stay safe out there . Happy trails
Best info in this video is the fact that many internet "maps" are wrong and could leave you very sorry as well as crippled or dead.
Make sure, when relying on a map for your drive, ride, or walk/hike, that you have a real map and not just any old map printed from a website.
I was in Payson, AZ and finding a reliable map was not so easy, but it must be done.
Many people suffer for want of proper guidance or A MAP.
Another example: People who watch CNN, MSNBC, and 99.9% of other media stuff are using maps that are designed to mislead and trick. Many will suffer and die for the lack of a true map.