Wide or Narrow skis and the American skier
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- Wading through magazine imaging, marketing, public perception when choosing the proper ski for you is not easy! Yet choosing an appropriate ski is fundamental for ski improvement. Considerations to inform your next ski purchase
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I have 4 pairs of skies at the moment. Sometimes i'm ending up with 2 pairs of them at the slope, since the conditions change often over the day. My rule is, as wide as neccessary, as narrow as possible.
This 100%
As a beginner, I ended up buying a 97mm under foot after listening to my friends! Man it felt so bad, couldn’t get on the edge, had trouble stopping it always. It’s like 2 giant snow boards attached to my feet!
Now I went and bought a 78mm under foot. It’s much easier to use them to learn what I want.
I agree with Ms Pickle, may be 5 ~10 years later I might get back on that 97mm.
I'm so glad someone is talking about this. As an Australian skier, I see way too many people on skis way too wide for the typical Australian conditions. So much of ski choice is about marketing and following market trend. Twenty years ago I bought my first powder ski (K2 Apache XP). They were a whopping 78mm underfoot. A few years later I upgraded to a 98 mm Kastle ski and only used that ski for when conditions dictated (i.e. fresh, deep-ish snow). Nowadays, I've gone skinnier (74 mm) and longer. About 70% of the time I'm hitting groomers and for the remaining 30% I just need to work a little harder when I'm off piste. And when mother anture provides, I pull out skis to suit those consditions. Meanwhile I'm seeing stupidly fat skis inbounds in Oz resorts, irrespective of conditions. How are you meant to get any kind of edge on those? Especially on those icy days (and we had more than out fair share of them this past southern winter).
I have worked in the ski industry for 40+ years. I live in New England and ski Loon Mountain in NH. I have lots of skis but Volkl Deacon 84 or Blizzard Brahma 88 are my everyday drivers for our typical conditions. My wide NE skis are Salomon QST 92 and Nordica Enforcers 94 for NE Powder, trees and natural snow trails.
I ski Cannon and Bretton and find few days that are powder ski days, I love it when we get them. I mostly ski Atomic Redster S9(two pair) 68 under foot, others are Head Monster 83, Volkl 98 and a pair of Head World Cup, 66 under foot as an early season ski. I never loved groomers until I start on the S9's six years ago. They hold like glue on NH ice.
So far this season, I've seen multiple people using 106+ wide skis at Loon. Where do you need that much waist on that mountain?
I remember once when an absolutely legendary ski writer and influencer made this point on an online skiing forum that was popular at the time. He mentioned that ski company marketers and ski shops were doing the majority of skiers a disservice by steering them into skis that were wider than what was ideal for what and how they would be skiing most of the time. Oh, man, you should have seen the roasting he got! He was basically run out on a rail. I really think it's true and shouldn't be controversial. Maybe things are getting more sane these days, but boy was everyone attached to their wide skis back then. This was maybe 5 or 6 years ago.
My rule of thumb is, if it hasn't snowed in the previous 3 days, I bring out my Dobermanns at 65 underfoot and carve tracks on groomers. Super fun. My widest ski now is 93 and I can't think of a day in Colorado in the past several years when I really wished I'd had wider. If I move to Utah, maybe ;)
I have skied on a variety of widths of skis for over 60 years. The best days that I have had are on skis 80mm and narrower. That includes knee deep powder on Mt Hood as well as hard ice back here in the East. I once skied on seriously heavy seriously cut up snow on 65 mm racing skis. My level 3 instructor on Mt. Hood who was at least 6’ 2” was on a 170 cm dedicated slalom ski and was tearing the powder up. It was yet another reminder that it isn’t the instrument, it’s the musician. Thanks for bringing common sense back to the people. Great video.
I've skied some fun terrain in deep snow on some Head WorldCup SL, mid-00s, with what I recall as 62mm waist but fairly wide shovels and tails, 170 length for my light 150 lbs and 178cm height. It was a lot more fun than I expected, maybe because I'd skied deep snow on skinny skis when younger.
So agree wit this. It's the technician, not the tool.
It's possible. But it's an awful lot of work! I was exhausted after skiing a 71mm Kastle on a soft snow day last week. But it did help me quit a bit with my technique. I was really forced to unweight the tail and make a very deliberate turns.
When I switched to my 94 mm all mountain ski. It felt like I was unleashed. I love skinny skis but when there's fresh snow i gotta go a bit wider! That may be because I like to launch off every jump in sight😂😂. Skinny skies are not great for that.
Doubtful. Small skis suck in powder
@@maddoc68 Comparatively speaking -- true. But you can't tell me, or anyone else like me, who skied powder on pencil skis from the 90s and earlier, that we had a bad time if we actually didn't. I'd rather have a pair of skinny skis on a deep day, than hike back downhill postholing the whole way. The ugly truth about skiing crud or powder on skinny skis is that the lower your skills, the worse a time you have, and the better your skills, the less your ski width matters.
It's really just a different experience. Ride deeper, even after planing, and more assertive weight/unweight moves are needed, but just a different experience. If you can't have fun doing it, man there has to be something wrong with you! I wouldn't quit skiing if someone made me ski all the time on my 1985 Dynamic VR27 204cm. I'd just approach it a little differently.
I love this conversation. I had a co-worker move to Whitefish and buy a pair of Armada VJJ's like 114 under foot and she's an intermediate skier at best, she just struggled for so long until I finally got her to try my daughters salomon 99's and it was a game changer for her.
My overall philosophy has changed in recent seasons and now my go to ski has 119/70/99 dimensions. Here in the East they are great skis on piste, can get up on edge quickly, and can get the job done in softer snow too. Wider skis are fun and floaty when there's fresh snow or crud and I use them sparingly. But in general I find narrower wasted skis to be much more versatile, especially nowadays with the sidecuts and wider shovels.
She was spot on ! If you can only afford one ski or two then 84 to 88 is the sweet spot. We've got to come back to earth and pick a tool for what we do and not what we wish we were doing. Here on the east coast, if you have 2 skis, a true carving ski for icy days coupled with mid fat ski to handled days with destroyed pistes, chopped and crud is gonna cover 90% of our situations
Right on the money -- even here in New Hampshire where there's always a layer of ice lurking --almost no one is on "skinny skis." If you see carving skis now you can bet it's young racers or baby boomers who also compete. On chairlifts I often find myself explaining why narrow underfoot skis work better on ice. They are almost a novelty at this point. I would bet the same ratio as in the Rockies,. And when I said Ice was lurking that was an understatement. Of courseit goes further than the ice -- recreational skiers just aren't oriented to carving. Kinda sad
15 years ago I hadn't been on alpine in 15 years, so suddenly found everyone on Stratton with a helmet on, and "shaped" skis. I was on my late 70s Rossignol SM and Solomon SX boots from 80s. I had heard about the "revolution" in carving. Well, riding the chairlift up, looking down, I saw the exact same windshield wiper and hockey check turns I remembered all the way back. Nothing really changed. And I can carve my ancient skis just fine--it takes more energy though.
That's why I love ski-tests like the one in Sölden - Austria. I had the oppertunity to test 20+ skies in 4 days 🙂
From a Slalom Fisher 67 mm under foot to a Black Crows 120 mm.
PS : Love the methaphore with the Hummer in the city !
The BEST ever! Two experts in ski technique and gear. Understanding the industry and helping the skiers. Tracy you rock!! Deb, you rock!! These are two amazing Pacific NW skiers who know what they're talking about.
My quiver consists of a pair of Rossi E 83's, 176 length and Hero Elite ST's, 172 long and 68 underfoot with a race plate for extra turning power. I'm 73 years old and love groomers. Of course, "groomers" at my home hill consist of hard pack man-made with some grooves scratched into the surface.
East coast pow day 😂
European skier here, on Fischer Ranger 102FR skis, which are great for all conditions, nice & loose, twin tippy with short contact lengths, so I can throw them side to side easily on piste or off piste, but can still carve pretty well if needed.
I had to ski narrowish Head (~82mm) wide skis a couple of years ago, after getting a core shot on my old Rossi Soul 7s. These were certainly more effortless when it came to carving on piste but otherwise felt one dimensional. And hard work on crud or powder. Give me wider skis every day of the week (within reason!).
Thank you
Nice
Great video! Different tools for different jobs, but imo always better to lean narrower. As a kid, I used to ski powder on skinny little things and still had plenty of fun. To the contrary, I've had plenty of lackluster turns because I was on something way too wide for the conditions, when wide skis started to become very popular. Pick a ski for the conditions you're most often in, not the conditions you wish you were in. This past year I moved from Mad River Glen being my home mountain to Snowbird...and honestly, I'm sticking with the same sticks: low 80s for the firmer all mountain days, mid 90s for good snow, mid 100s for deep days, and mid 90s for touring...and honestly, I loved having a performance ski in the 60s-low 70s, but mine got stollen!
Really true -- buy the ski for the conditions you are on 85+ % of the time, not what you want to be on for an ideal powder day etc.
Some of us old folks skied powder on skis with waists in the 60s (mm wise) and equally narrow tips and tails, we just sank a bit more until hauling it. I've had lots of fun on deep days (10" or more) on 88mm waisted skis -- Head Monster 88 '05 era, Elan 888 late 00s. My widest skis are 110mm waist and I don't break them out that often, and never on hardpack. They'll turn fine, they're just overwide GS skis, but the angle created by the wide waist, it puts the hurt on my knees if I need to make a small turn in a hurry.
@@seanoneil277 head monster was one of my favorite skis ever!
@@BoyajianDon I put about 200 days on them before I compressed an edge and cracked a sidewall, and retired them. At that age, they'd grown a little soft but still motored through crud like nobody's business, and still quiet at crazy speeds on the groomers.
Deb, always your videos are so refreshing because they are the correct time, not too long or short, precisely. And the end was marvelous, love. Thanks for this great job you do for us.
The ski industry is driving this madness of wide skis for general skiing. Wide skis are for certain conditions. Ski retailers in general in North America are selling “easy marketed” skis. Selling the sizzle! Europeans have got it together. Way too many ski models being made. Time to cut down on this proliferation. 😉
It’s moving in the right direction. I ride a 84 underfoot primarily in VT and PA. They ride phenomenally for what I do (and can do) on skis. I think a lot of young kids are drawn to wider skis because they want to get into freestyle (I don’t understand it either).
Deb always just spitting facts. I know this wasn’t meant to be an ad, but pickle definitely made me have a more favorable opinion of the brands they represent.
I have worked in New England ski shops for 40+ years. At my shop which is in an urban area we carry models from 72 mm underfoot up to a 105 mm. We have lots of 70 + through 85 beginner through intermediate/ advanced. We Do stock lots of 88-96 advanced/expert models. We get very few requests for narrow high performance skis like Firebird, Thunderbird, Deacons 72 or 76 models. When we have stocked them we ended up selling them at cost at the end of the season. Please keep in mind that although we agree with your assessment the laws of demand drive what we invest our money in our inventory.
Skis are expensive! When you can only afford 1 pair is The reason why they go wider. Plus these 700 dollar ski CLOTHES is ridiculous.
97 underfoot is my daily driver sweet spot 😊
If it would be the industry pushing it then why aren’t Europeans buying it and Americans are? Funny to see 88 advised here for groomers. In Europe we use 65 to 75 mostly on groomers.
Thanks Deb, when ever you speak from you heart and knowledge I jump for joy and see myself saying "yes". Thanks for sharing your experience.
I've grown to love that 88 or so for all around telemark skiing. I have some in the mid 90s that can be fun but the sub-90s are my go to. I am learning so much from you even though I am a freeheel skier. Thank you!
You're always great, Deb. Keep sharing.
I so wish I had found your videos before I was encouraged to buy 92mm skis last spring. What you're saying totally makes sense. I'm a mid-50's skier who hangs out on blue groomers in CO with aspirations to incorporate black slopes, too. Thanks for the great content.
After growing up in a ski shop in Norway I think you're absolutely right. But not only are the skis too wide, but people here buy light wide touring skis with tec-bindings and light soft boots to ski 90% groomers. Skis with little sidecut that makes learning proper carving technique a lot harder.
That said, I really recommend anyone who can afford it to get a two ski quiver(you can always have more) if they plan to ski both on piste and off piste. A solid full camber carver around 80mm, and a 110mm freeride ski with some rocker and taper that tackles both powder and crud.
But there's also quite a few customers that are scared of wide skis, and think they should start skiing off piste on narrower skis before they "graduate" to wider skis. This is also a misconception that will make your off piste skiing a lot harder and less fun. I can't emphasize how much rockered skis did to make off piste skiing easier and more fun. I still remember being mind blown the first time I skied one back in 2009. Hail McConkey!
Great topic, Deb, as always! Even in NE here, all I see at shops are mid-fat skis with crazy rockers. I had to import from Europe to get my 66m-waist skis. No real powder skiing here in NE except for perhaps doing trees at Jay Peak or something. We need more narrower skis because they are more suited to the conditions here.
If you’re looking for a 66 mm waist ski you can easily walk into a ski shop that deals In racing skis. If I wanted that type of ski I would simply go to Rogers or Sport Toma in Lincoln, NH they both stock race skis and equipment. If you go to a ski shop near a major resort you are very likely to be able to get all the major race ski brands. Personally I prefer something like Blizzard Thunderbird 15 WB or Volkl Deacon 72 or 76. Those models are usually available as they are great front side carving skis.
@@thomasmedeiros5722 I know I could find narrow waist skis in the Northeast, but I have to travel some distance to get to those shops that have such skis. I have found I can find exactly what I want from overseas online retailers cheaper and quick. That is how I've bought two pairs of HEAD skis so far.
I’m a Level 3 instructor in Minnesota and ski the Rossi SL race ski here (why would I need anything else here😀) Last March in Cortina, Italy I skied the Rossi Multi turn for the week ( I’m only 5’2” and it was awesome!) I head west to Grand Targhee for the rest of the winter where I pull out my Nordica Santa Ana 88’s or 93’s depending on the conditions. It’s the conditions that dictate my skis. A “girls trip” to Steamboat is scheduled for this March, can’t wait❤
Great conversation. Very illuminating! I was never clear on the ski width issue, but now I get the thinking that goes into it with pros like the two of you.
OMG it’s like old home week… super fun seeing Olin come in last minute! Keep up the great work Deb. Super stoked (and not surprised) that Pickles found a landing spot. Elevate you are lucky to have her!! Two woman super stars!!!🌟
I love your videos! I'm not even a skier, but I look forward to every video!!
Ah, this makes me happy🙏
Thanks for this! I’m just coming back to skiing and these kinds of discussions really help cut through the hype and marketing.
This video is spot on. I'm originally from Europe, have been skiing for almost 30 years now. Primarily ski on the East Coast this days. Have 6 pairs of skis in my quiver: two pairs of FIS SL, one pair of masters GS (all three 70mm or under). Two pairs of mid-70s (168cm and 177cm for different hill sizes), and a pair of 86mm (185cm) for fresh snow, larger hills, or trips out west. The 86mm worked great in Mammoth in May, and I never ever felt l needed skis wider than that. Well, yes, if I were to ski powder in Utah, Colorado, or Mammoth on a regular basis, I would probably add a pair of wider skis for those conditions, but, realistically, almost no one needs skis wider than 90mm for the East Coast.
Deb and ‘Pickles’ thank you so much for helping to break down the hype. Very educational - love this channel.
Thanks Deb! As someone who just turned to skiing after 30 years, this is very helpful. I'm 99% on the groomers so I went with an 80. :) If I need anything more, then I'm going to rent a demo pair.
I completely agree Deb, especially about the "blind leading the blind", the number of beginner skiers on social media (often by "influencers") I see being recommended buy 100mm wide powder skis, when they're going to spend 99% of their time on groomed snow, and barely know how to ski yet is absolutely ridiculous. The hummer in the city analogy is brilliant. I get people are aspirational and want to be those big mountain skiers they see in amazing edits, but rental shops and stores need to be more responsible and recommend them skis that are actually suited to their skiing, and that are going to help them improve so they can actually achieve their aspirations.
Increasingly as well I'm seeing this insane influencer narrative that good ski technique, particularly derived from racing (e.g. carving) will stifle skiers creativity, and they shouldn't bother with it, as if the best freeriders didn't all have racing backgrounds! At best this advice is irresponsible, at worst it's downright dangerous.
I watched your previous video on ski selection before buying my 70mm Rossi Hero Master LT's, which being someone who like to ski fast and carve big turns on hard packed snow are absolutely perfect for me! Before that all the advice I was seeing was telling me to get an "all mountain ski", but as a world cup ski tech a friend put me in touch with said, "all mountain ski is just a marketing term for a ski that isn't particularly good at anything".
I’m team wide ski, I ride Rossignol blackops 118s nearly every day, but I completely agree with what you are saying here. lots of people choosing the wrong tool for the job especially as beginner-intermediates that still need to learn the basics
I ski a 112 Deathwish most days and I'm on the same page.
You are young and strong, and get to ski a lot, is that correct? Even great skiers age or only ski so many days each year, and find that carrying an extra half a pound or more on each foot (or shoulder) matters. Maybe it's not only about skill or learning the "basics".
@@zincfive yes I'm young active and ski a lot, a large heavy ski like I ride would kick a lot of young and fit peoples butts, they aren't for everyone. I hope you don't think I'm blindly recommending "wide" skis to everyone, my comment was more just saying many people don't know how to pick skis for their needs and I think its especially hard for beginner-intermediates. even really good skiers might not know what they want in a ski and that's why we have ski demos!
@@zincfive also for some wide ski propaganda theres a guy at my local area who must be in his late 60s who rides an armada JJ at 116 wide and I have the exact same pair as he does! we are very different skiers but we both enjoy the same ski :)
your views on ski wastes inspired me to go for a 76 underfoot ski. and i love it!
Great!!!
This is a good episode on a subject not talked about enough. The word ‘quiver’ was well selected. I ski the east at a small area where we have great groomers and crappy everything else, so I ski a set of drivers every day. Living out west you get the best of all the terrains so you need a quiver of skis to align with whatever you’re skiing that day. If you’re a tourist, rent for the terrain if you don’t own. Better to spend rental bucks than ruin your day and develop bad habits fighting it.
Deb, the pistes you film on look nothing like the steep, heavy crud where you'll find me in Tahoe (on a good day). Since I don't have a quiver, my new Mantra 102s will be the daily drivers this season. But you continue to influence me to work on technique and get better every day, still hoping to stamp out the stem-christies grandpa taught me in 1966.
Ya, fair enough. The fat skis make many conditions easier so they are a good choice for the proper situation.
Great video ! So many skiers buy the wrong equipment for their level and the terrain they ski.
Living in Quebec, skiing on hard packed snow or ice, my daily driver is 75mm underfoot.
My wider skis, for less frequent conditions, are 86mm and 96mm.
Love my Volkl Yumis in the Midwest. It’s so important to spend a couple of days demoing. Doesn’t cut it 100% out west, but is almost perfect for me there too. Waiting until the snow is good here to demo for something a little spicier. Good info!
Great topic. I'm trying on 4 different ski boots right now to see if anything can replace my old ones, so far not happy. Fought the change to shaped skis, then the change to wide skis, so far I've learned I need at least 5 pairs of skis for different conditions. East coast skiing can vary from powdery snowmaking, to moguls, to ice runs, all in the same day on the same mountain. An all mtn ski in the 88 to 92mm underfoot seems ok, does everything but nothing well. it's complicated.
Ladies, that was some of the best ski advice out there!
I’m 62, male, 6’, 200 lbs. I haven’t skied in 30 years. I skied “straight skis”, 180s- 190s back in the day. Under foot (waist) width wasn’t a thing. Back in the 70s-80s I bought what I could afford, and I mounted my own bindings because I learned from a book. (Imagine not having youtube to learn from! Lol)
All these years later, I’m watching copious amounts of CZcams vids about skiing, and waist width (under foot) is a consideration that wasn’t a thing back in my day.
As best I can tell, you’re exactly right regarding waist width. Ninety percent of skiers spend ninety percent of their time skiing groomers, and other “on piste” trails. Narrow waist skis are far more user friendly in these conditions. In fact, I’m pleasantly surprised that shorter skis are also now appreciated. So much easier to maneuver!
I’d love a set of 88-170-175s to rip some groomers!
Great presentation! 🤙
Yes, great video! I live in New England and I am a L2 instructor. My daily alpine ski is a 68mm SL, my daily tele is 78mm and both handle anything I am skiing here. I have a wider alpine ski for skiing out west with my son, but don't expect to bring it out much for local skiing.
Great stuff. Just picked up a pair of Mindbender 85s for my mom, great to hear that is in the ideal width range! I'll keep skiing my SideSeth 116s though, they're great for that PNW hippy pow ;)
I've never had skis wider than 80 millimeters in my life! Most of my skis were between 68 and 74 millimeters wide. But the fact is that I mostly ski in the Alps on groomed slopes (I enjoy the speed and fun carving).
I also use narrow sporty ski boots (thin socks, size -0.5) with a flex of 100-120.
Hey Deb! I love your channel. We already have good comditions in New England in early December! Hitting Stowe (or maybe Okemo) tomorrow! Let's have a stellar season! Im definitely hitting some rocky mountain skiing this year for sure! Thanks for all you do for us!
Love it. Hope you find that awesome corduroy
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I think Im going to move to Tahoe. I love New England. But I LOVE skiing. Im 48, this is 3rd season, and I want to spend as much time with the sport in the years I have remaining as possible. Im from the deep south. I never knew something as wonderful as skiing existed. You get all the blood-stirring benefits of violent/full-contact sports without the violence. Lol. I woulda dropped football like a hot potato had I known about skiing!
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I kinda like the rough stuff, tbh. I like facing down the danger and fear of unpredictable situations and beating them. I saw a dude in his late 70s yesterday crushing Hayride like he was 18. (Hayride is a double black untouched by any machines). Dude had a beard down to his bellybutton. He is my new hero. It's an incredible sight to see people ski in their 80s with that kind of spring in their knees and spirit for LIFE! Skiing is a spiritual sport if there ever was such thing. The mountain punishes those with no respect for it and an impious attitude towards Nature. Oh! Read the Rime of The Ancient Mariner. I reread it the other day. But think of the Mariner as an arrogant captain of finance...the types who foul our mountains with the stain of avarice and arrogance. They always leave with injuries. We always make it to apres safe, sound & blessed. I can already tell...this is going to be s special season!
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I want to schedule a few lessons with you in like feb/march when I trek out west. Not sure what you charge, but we'll make it work. Domt go easy on me. Yell at me. Train these terrible posture habits our of me. I played football and wrestled. They taught us to stay low snd wide stance. I cant seem to get it out of my balance instincts. Also, I wanna learn to jump. What happened to your tip jar?
Thank you Deb, I went out two days ago cos of watching this vid and one with you and another lady talking about ski width, so I picked up a cheap pair of what I would call beginner skis, 76mm under foot and they completely changed my day, superb!!!!!!! thank you so so much ole lady from Banff!!
Love it!!!!
I got some big fat powder skis this season, and had the chance to try them out already. It sure is different! I can definitely feel the benefits while I was in the powder, but it's going to take some work to figure out exactly how to turn them. Not like my 68s that's for sure. Felt like I was using some different muscles. Thanks Deb!
East coast skier here: My widest ski is 84, my daily driver is 76, and my GS for icy days is 66. Love all three and am happy with my quiver.
Found your videos last year and fell in love with your positive vibes, clear instructions, and informative insight! I was a ski racer all 4 years of high school. I got pretty good at it and got MVP my senior year. Fast forward a couple years and I was in a tight spot financially and had no choice but to sell my slalom and giant slalom skis. All I had left were my somewhat wide all-around mountain skis. Last year I finally had enough disposable income to go skiing again for a full season. And I gotta say, they are a dream in the right conditions, but they don't have any "oomph" on the groomers!! I miss my racing skis tremendously and my goal is to save up enough money to buy a nice pair of slalom skis to have in my arsenal. I spent most of my time on the groomers and practicing moguls, and the wider skis really didn't feel good at all. Listen to Deb everyone!! She knows what she's talking about! Please start on a narrower ski!! It will make you a better skiier in the long run, and when you switch to wider skis you will learn to appreciate the skinnier ones! I miss my racing skis so, SO much and I'm so mad at myself for selling them. But it was either I sold them or I didn't get to eat 😢
Thanks for the comment! Have an awesome season
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Thank you! You are an inspiration ✨ ❤
@@Sqwivig I love your skiing spirit!
I hope you can find some slightly used race skis that you can add to your quiver😊
@@josephgdraper Me too!! The race skis I had before were used and they worked like a dream ☺ I miss them so much 💔
Thank you so much for your content. We (the uninformed and influenced) go down the rabbit hole all the time. This content is exactly what we need. Thanks for pulling me out of that rabbit hole.
I love my 76 Volkl Flairs. Feel better for my knees, feel more in control. Of course I am an east coast (groomer) skier but I'd take my 76's with me out west too :). I have a pair of Black Pearls too but I love my 76 under foot. :) PS Hi Deb great to see your videos again!
Great video!
This is such a great video!
I picked up a pair of Dynastar SkiCross 66's (heavy skis!) on a fire sale at a sports retailer in E. Canada, still in the plastic. (I used to have Dynastar FPS Equipe, (with a pair of Koflach SXL's) that I found far too soft. My boss advised me on these (ski retail.)) The SkiCross were super on challenging and in tame glades, but woe to me on a blue groomer. Mtn Equipment COOP sold me a pair of Rossignol Experience 80's. Very comfortable on the groomers and light to carry around. A circuit skier sold me his Nordica Dobermann GS, which just shone on icy steeps. They just gobbled up that ice. I'm a solid 200lb male, I've been skiing since the early seventies. I really enjoy watching your postings. Thank-you.
I absolutely LOVE Deb Armstrong. She is my Muse.
That being said, as an East Coast skier, Stockli Laser AX all the way!
I had gotten a pair of Atomic XT 3.0's (65 mm) several years ago which were great on groomers, ice, etc. I couldn't ski them in soft snow, crud, etc. so I added a pair of Atomic Vantage 90's for the soft stuff which they handled very well. This past season I got a pair of Atomic Q9.8's (85 mm) which IMO do it all very well. Unless I am able to ski in true powder, the Q9.8's are a great one ski quiver.
Deb, a great topic indeed. As instructors, we need to know our students’ intentions. For example, are they going to skid, carve, or blended turns. So do we need to ask ourselves, are they on the right tool (the right width and length ski) to match their objective? I think it’s a challenge. Wishing you a great ski season! //Marshall
I have a 68mm, 80mm, 90mm and a 110mm ski. Yes 4 pairs for 4 different conditions. My favorite skis are the 68 and 90. They have the longest turn radius and the most stable at speed.
After watching some Deb videos, bought a pair of Blizzard 76s. Nice to feel a real carve sensation but they were incredibly catchy. Tore my ACL after a simple fall and the binding failing to release until the very end. Wish I were on a more forgiving pair of my all mountain skis that day.
My go to ski for the east is a Hart Fusion (177 I believe) and it is 65mm under foot. I have a couple of wider skis (6 pairs total) for deeper snow and crud, but almost always take the Harts.
Eastern US skier here. Was just skiing this last weekend on 134 under foot, and boy, did those skis rip! 134 is total for both skis, by the way.
I was really hoping you were a mono-skier 😂
Ha! I was wondering... 134 on hardpack would tear your knees to shreds!
Right on !!
AMEN! Some very worthwhile influencing. Perhaps a follow-up video to explain why 80-something is good for the masses.
Hello Debbie,
Love your videos. It's a trip to see Lefler as an older dude. I guess that means I'm now old too.
Yep... I grew up a Steamboat local through the 80s. I was a teen competitive skier. A career choice took me out of the mountains and skiing and later I returned to skiing much older and after skis had major tech changes. I later moved to WA and skied weekly Alpental, (many runs down "Debby's Gold," et al) Soqualamie or Crystal. I had never experienced snow like in WA, including the regular 3 ft of mashed potato snow. Like in Jaws 1, when the main character first sees the shark, my first big snow storm in WA I said to myself, "I need a bigger boat," trying to keep the sticks afloat. And through those years skiing in WA, with its plethora of funky conditions I learned a lot more about skis than was ever an issue growing up in CO where a normal exceptional pow day is less than a foot of fluff. Through experimentation and relearning the trade in a different region I ended up with a quiver. These last couple years I'm back in Colorado.
One thing no-one talks about is how hard it is physically to hold an edge on firmer snow with a wide ski than a narrow. It is purely physics. As you and most better, yet albeit lesser than Olympic skiers like myself know, wrenching over a fat ski and holding it on edge takes a helluva a lot more muscle than a narrow ski. I see tons of Colorado skiers skiing the normal packed conditions on fatter skis, fighting chatter and having to skid J-turn. And then there is skiing bump runs... Fat skis just suck in skied-out bumps. And IMO, the things are not only exhausting in the wrong conditions, they are dangerous on the knees. Especially for older skiers. They just aren't the right tool for everyday use. When the conditions warrant, oh hell yeah I'll take a 115 underfoot, or even a 95, etc, they are amazing fun in the right situations, but for the 99% most days on terrain accessible via lift, an "ALL MOUNTAIN" 85 underfoot is more than a bigger boat. When I ski with my niece and nephew who live at the base of Shawnee Peak in Maine, I'm even wishing for less. But it isn't just the influence crowd selling the big mountain skis, its the industry. The industry sells that once in a blue moon, (and that's if your local), dream knee to waist deep pow day.
Thanks for posting this vid that IMO a lot of folks would be well-advised to see.
Love it
I own three types and the narrows are great especially for cali! Obviously terrain is part of it. Backcountry skiing is usually deeper so pow it out. Just talk to other skiers. Thanks for talking about this.
So true, but tough to parse what wide means if you grew up with 65 mm skis. I remember when I got my first wide 84mm skis and what a difference they made in terms of being able to handle inconsistent soft snow. I still keep a pair of 63mm slalom skis sharp, and they get a lot of use when the base is firm, but the 64mm GS skis have largely been replaced by my 91mm all mountain skis. The combination of similar stability (if not edge bite) and a user-friendly 17m turn radius make for a fine groomer ski when I get tired from making 150+ turns per run. They also do better as the frozen base melts out in the afternoon, as often happens in much of New England. I'm sure there's a place for a 80mm carver in the quiver, but with a touring ski and a floatier, driftier ski for deep days and the woods, it just hasn't made its way up the priority list, even if I probably would ski it most often of all. The math works out after all: one 63 mm ski until lunch + a 91 mm ski in the afternoon / 2 skis = one 77mm daily driver.
Appreciated the comment about: "led astray". This reminds me of other sports (bicycling & tennis) where the advancement of technology is driving consumer choices that may not be appropriate for "average" skiers. Tracey a bit diplomatic? ; ) Thanks for pushing back on the hype.
I ski Midwestern slopes. Haven't missed a season since I started in 1976/77. Recently I went from 73 underfoot to 80. Next time I will probably go narrower again. I just find 80s a bit slow edge to edge. They are probably a bit better in soft and cut up snow but I don't get much chance to ski that stuff.
Love this video. I just bought a pair of Line Pandora 94 skis at the end of last season and am anxious to try them out when I go to Sun Peaks, B.C this season (last year I demoed a pair for half a day). My previous skis were 84s but I wanted to try a little wider to see if it helped me float a bit on the crud that develops as the runs get skied out. I will still be taking my 84s for the days that are a little icier as the Pandoras are fairly light and I am not sure how they will do on a groomed icy run. I have only been back skiing for the past few years and only do it while on vacation (usually a month a season), so am slowly learning what works for me and the level I am at, but there are still days where I think, hey, I could do that and then have to come back to reality, lol. Love your videos Deb!
The Pandoras are an interesting example here. They are wide by European standards,moderately wide by Eastern standards, and a fine everyday width by Western standards. However, because they are so light weight, they don't have the best suspension for inconsistent snow, so they can struggle in the late day crud. They are amazing in the woods and bumps, because you can get them to make just about any turn even when the snow is packed. On-piste, they carve short turns fairly well for a midfat, but they do have a speed limit above which they get squirrelly. The lightness and deep sidecut alleviate many of the issues with wider skis but they introduce other issues. It's always a trade-off. That's a great ski to have in your quiver. There will be days you long for something skinnier and sturdier, but it sounds like you already have that ski.
@@phrides Thanks for sharing your take. This is what I have right now but I'm in the market for something narrower while I'm still building the fundamental skills. I'm glad to keep them for when I'm more confident to ski more variety of terrain.
I ski an Armada 92ti, but only ski west coast and mainly Whitefish MT. An all mountain ski that can sit on powder as well as ski the groomers is perfect for me.
Really good and important advice Deb. Could you also talk about the impact of wide skis on knees when used on groomers? Thank you. Greetings form Europe. Your content is AMAZING.
Thank you🙏🙏 love the feedback😉
Another issue is way too many ski shops are selling the Look Pivot for wide skis. Unless you are truly skiing deep snow/powder your knees will not suffer too much. Skiing most piste conditions with a Look Pivot mounted on lets say any ski width fromm 95 - 122/125 is not only killing your knees and probably your hips, but you have to over-compensate in so may areas. Get yourself a somewhat higher elevated binding perhaps like a Attack13 or Knee Binding! Just my own personal opinion.!
@@michaelaronson5507 I ride a very heavy 118 wide ski with pivots most days, I personally don’t feel like there is a significantly larger strain on my legs or knees skiing a groomer than any other ski I’ve been on. In a situation where I’d be fighting a ski I could see a low mount height and wide ski being more effort and straining but personally I don’t feel that I have to fight wide skis to carve a turn on groomers or move how I want
@@michaelaronson5507I work in a ski shop. We don’t carry Look binding’s because our customer base doesn’t fit the demographic that would justify stocking them. However we have lots of skiers coming in to have us mount Look Pivot bindings. They are usually younger Freeride and park oriented skiers. When I am on the slopes I notice that the Pivot is definitely the favorite binding on twin tip park style skis in NE. The Pivot bindings have become popular bindings to have. Kinda like all those people who wear Air Jordan Basketball sneakers and never step on a basketball court.
@michaelaronson5507 Hmm the pivots have a lot of elasticity so they are to me and many a great binding. I have them on all my skis that don't have a system binding. Although I haven't seen it you could in theory put pivots on a plate, and plates do help some with edge angle. But I haven't heard people complain about pivots being hard on the knees, is it just the lack of a plate that makes you say that? Or is it the ramp angle of the pivots (which is one of the lowest)?
Hi Deb. I thoroughly enjoy your videos. I have learned so much. I noticed you were questioning your ski pole length during your video on mogul skiing. What are your thoughts about using adjustable- length poles? I have been considering the Play Snowsports poles out of Australia. I learned about them from a video with Paul Gellie discussing pole length with Paul Lorenz, the owner of Play Snowsports.
Thanks Deb and Tracy! (I corrected the name, must have been a flashback to the Kelly Timmons discussion about boot fitting) I bought my last pair of boots when Tracy was still at Sturtevants in the old location in Bellevue WA. I have a pair of 72mm Dynastars (shaped skis with demo bindings more than 10 years old) that I might put some newer bindings on. My current skis are Volkl Kanjos that are 84mm under foot that have camber under foot and tip and tail rocker and I have enjoyed them a lot. They replaced my Volkl AC50’s with demo bindings I got during Sturtevants progressive sale. It’s hard to find narrow skis in a lot of shops I go to in Seattle.
So true! I went to a shop in Seattle specifically because of the reputation of the boot fitter. End of season and they were selling me on a great low low price for boots, bindings and skis. I was inclined to go with a waist in the 80s but they were insisting we don't need to go under 90 in the PNW, and the deal was too good to pass up I thought. After one season, I'm now looking for something in the mid or low 80s, because I think that really meets me where I am in my skill development. But for sure, I'm glad to have the 94s for way it's dumping right now in the Cascades! It's not a true powder ski, but I'll keep it in the quiver for the time being.
have 85 mm waist skis for the Taos groomers and I love them
Heading out to Breck in January and want to go narrower this year. I want more performance on turns! Moving from intermediate to advanced skier. 5'8" 155 lb male. Recommendations? Usually go 155-158 length.
I put the bent 120’s back on the shelf and bought the sensible 100’s. Thanks ladies!
Ha!! Love it. Where do you ski. Must be awesome
On a whim last year i went to Ski Trucker in salt lake city (an awesome place to by vintage ski equipment, a huge warehouse full)
I bought a pair of PRE skis ( a K2 brand) from the 1980s just to see if I was crazy or did older skis actually perform better?
In the bumps and when i want super quick turns this is still an awesome ski (albeit with now a very weird looking shovel)
Tried it is heavy carved up snow (certainly not powder by utah standards) .... helicopter yard sale.
I love these skis but they are dangerous off piste because we are spoiled with skis like Armada Declivity, Volkl Mantra etc.
I ended up going with a black crows camox freebird with Salomon shift mnc bindings for backcountry. My thought was to have a variable condition ski but I’ve found it’s too lightweight and not stiff enough for the east coast ice and low snow conditions. 96mm waist. Back to the quiver of arrows and a car full of different pairs for me.
Glen used to shred moguls on DH boards! That says it all! Every ‘debutant `wants to master off piste, carving, short radius, long radius….
Learn how a ski works and drive it accordingly! There are sports cars, 4x4’s, tractors…All have a purpose but they all move you forward.
You can change your tools but if you don’t have the skills they won’t work! Go to the hire shop and try them all….😁
I was buying Atomic Cloud Skis, full camber and debated between 68 mm and 75mm. The 75mm is labelled Atomic Cloud 75 WB (Wide Body). I went for that and it is great, however I learned on "long skinny skis" when I was younger. The 75 WB is great for most terrain and mainly on piste although if I buy a new pair of skis in future, might go to 68.
Love that someone shared this video in our local FB group today!
Love it. What’s your FB group?
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong the White Pass Ski/Snowboard group!
Thank you. I've been skiing for 59 years. I ski hard, fast all day. I've raced.
I like and have always skied on a narrow waist. My favorite ski is 110/71/97, 187.
I can ski on any snow, any condition. I wouldn't ever go wider than a 88 waist and ONLY in a deep powder ski.
I will admit My family is from Austria and I ski that style. I began as soon as I could walk. Imagine the Austrian or Swiss Interski demo team. It's a distinct style.
But I can ski the deepest of powder or the hardest pack, The best in a cut I've come to love.
I learned on wood skis, with bear trap bindings and segmented edges, lace up leather boots and wool socks. I remember duct taping cardboard to my forearms and shins, before plastic was used to attack gates. If you can ski a black diamond you can ski anything. Parabolic skis for me felt like power steering, and allowed me to ski longer each day since I wasn't pushing to make the straight edge ski arc.
I wish more people would ski thinner skis. Its easier to shift from edge to edge.
And yeah, a thinner waist is more European.
Great topic! Everyone who wants to improve their skiing should spend time on a narrow more technical ski and search out (for those of us in the West) firmer groomers and get really proficcient at skiing. Being on a Masters race ski or a great carver (under 80mm) is like a different sport with wonderful sensations.
Once you can make a ski like this sing you can apply those skills to anything wider or more rockered and will typically favor a more technical precise, skiers ski.
The development in ski-construction is tremendous and also in Europe we have more and more skiers who prefer wider skis for all circumstances you may have over a day or week of skiing. The „one for anything ski“. Maybe not 86mm +, but wider than in the last years. I bought the Atomic Redster Q9.8 with 182 cm, 85 mm in the middle, but a radius of 15 m. And this thing is so much fun - also in icy conditions. As well as the Völkl Deacon 84. So, we still don‘t buy that much Pickups, but also wider skis 😉😂
I have 92’s for Midwest & West. I do what I want.
I prefer a narrower ski and ski a 66 underfoot day to day. I have an 82 which is wide enough for most situations. Thanks Deb for the information.
Agreed. I love my RTM 84s, but when it’s “firm”, I prefer my 65 under foot slalom skis.
Absolutely agree. Ski mainly Vermont on Kastles 83 underfoot. Love it
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!
Well said. Exactly right.
In Québec and I start the day on a 78mm Carving ski with metal and later move to a 82mm rockered and softer ski. I would like to get a 90+ mm eventually, but there's not much days for those here.
It comes down to... New Skis, New Boots, New Jacket, New Bloomers, Same old turns.
I find my wider 104’s more versatile and just more fun to ski on than the narrower skis i usually leave at home..maybe it is slick marketing or I just that I have more confidence on the wider ski ??
My last pair of Volkl's was a hot pink P9 RS in a 205. They were happiest pointed straight downhill; they had a proclivity for speed....
🤣🤣
Getting first tracks on the corduroy and laying it over, for sure, then grab some narrow GS skis, like in the videos, but for us mere mortals that sleep in and end up getting a bit of groomed up top, then drop into a bit of cruddy icey bumps and then find the side of the run near the tree is the softer stuff and then find slush and a bit of ice in the shade (all on one run!!) then perhaps a narrower ski is not all it is about - I love some nose rocker and a bit of width up front to push through the varied terrain... Some amazing skis out there that carve and float and do the work for you...could be 80 or 100 underfoot ... thoughts??
Yes, yeah, and yup. You guys nailed it. I teach alpine and telemark in Vermont. New tele skiers show up with rentals far too wide (98 +) for learn to lessons. Not in any way ideal. I ski mostly on 88 or narrower. If 10” plus then i go to my 102’s. Hey , it’s Vermont.
Living and skiing exclusively in the North East I was recommended a set of Nordica Speedmachines by a local shop and felt they were perfect for me. I noticed they were really heavy and since then always try to buy heavy skis but have never found a pair as great for me in our typical conditions as those. Any suggestions, open to any brand and willing to pay more if it's worth it?
To illustrate your point a number of years ago I noticed the skiing magazine was 80% about off trail skiing. I almost never do this and therefore canceled the magazine because it was not appropriate for where I ski and how I ski. Are they still in business?
For me, an eastern and European skier, I moved up from 69 to 74 mm.
Hey Deb, good to see you back. Always liked your class.
Where do you teach, if I want to schedule a class?
Skistrong in Taos for advanced and expert. Skistrong in Steamboat for intermediate and lower intermediate
As a midwest skiier I think its hard to figure out a good "daily driver" for trips out west. I've got my 70mm 13.5m radius skis for midwest and a 95+mm for pow days, but the 88mm i plan for all mountain feels like the worst of both worlds rather than the best.
Tricky to demo skis in conditions similar to what I'd be using them in since I only get out west 4-7 days per year. Id love to grab head e titan or fischer curv gt's but the cost is tough to justify when ive already got the 88mm underfoot skis and id realistically be on them less than 7 days per year. Hopefully moving to somewhere less vertically challenged soon though and then ill figure out what I really want in a more versatile ski (maybe something 78-84mm, stiff and with like 16m radius)
So right Deb. !!!
Ive been skiing for almost 50 years. I've tried wider. Tried skinnier. For certain runs I absolutely love the wider. But for the whole day, I like skinnier. 85 mm underfoot or a little less. 88mm max. I like to use length to get the float rather than the width. I ski moguls, trees, steeps, pow, and then groomers to the bottom. So I prefer something easy to turn, relatively light, length for stability at speed (I'm heavy, 250). So balsa, poplar, aspen, and some metal in the core. Technique allows for powder days. I always have a good day😊
This year i bought a pair of skis that were geared towards the intermediate skiier that does groomers. I didnt go for a twin-tip with a massive rocker, because i had to be honest about 100% of my skiing is resort/lesiure with a focus on not getting hurt xD
What did you end up with? It sounds like I might be looking for something similar.
A pair of Redster q6 - very forgiving, and was surprisingly good on ice @@istrala
For me it all comes down to how many skis you are willing to own, that is, the size of your quiver. I have three pairs of different widths: 88, 94, 117. The 88s are great on hard pack groomers; the 94s are a lot of fun when playing around on tracked out snow and crud; the 117s are heaven when the snow is knee deep or more. Sure, you can make a narrow ski work in deep snow, but why struggle when a fatty works so much better? Anyway, if you are shooting for a one ski quiver, go for the narrow ski. If you have the luxury of picking from multiple skis, mix it up.