Burgess 1878 Military Carbines: .45-70 Before Winchester
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- čas přidán 6. 04. 2020
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Andrew Burgess is an underappreciated arms designer, and his Model 1878 (aka the Whitney-Burgess-Morse) had the potential to be a very serious competition to Winchester. It was chambered for the .45-70 Government cartridge, and unlike the Winchester 1876 Burgess’ design could handle to power of that round. However, a series of misjudgements led to production ending after less than two years. The first problem was unreliability of the lifter mechanism as originally produced. This was a primary cause of the rifle failing the 1878 military repeating rifle trials, but Whitneyville had finalized the production tooling without waiting to see the trial results. Thus the first thousand or so guns shipped to customers tended to have double feeds. In addition, it was discovered that UMC cartridges had very sensitive primers that would detonate in the magazine tube with enough regularity to be a serious problem. This was addressed by UMC offering a special loading for the Burgess, but this was done only after the problem gained some publicity.
The Burgess 1878 was offered as both a military carbine and a sporting rifle, and we have a pair of military carbines to show you today. One is a first model that loads from the top (extraordinarily rare) and the other is a third model with a bayonet lug (also extremely rare). The guns were initially offered in both top- and side-loading configurations, and the side-loading was so overwhelmingly preferred that virtually all the top-loaders were adapted to the side-loading pattern.
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I once owned the rifle version. For about six hours. I bought it at a gun show, set it on my table, planning to take it home and shoot it. I'd paid $1500 for that rifle, and a few hours later a collector came up and offered $4500 for it. He took it home, lol. That was a really front heavy rifle. But very cool. Should have kept it, but I was young and about broke.
If you have 1500 dollars to spend on a hobby you're not broke or you have a gaping hole in your hand haha
Dude was broke because he spent the 1,500$ lmao
@@ColeckZz I know Right!!
Jasper D it's called having poor financial management
4 X your money in a few hours?
I would have sold it, too.
Isn't this the same madlad who created that folding shotgun? Gotta respect this guy.
Indeed
Yes
One of those "this close to being famous" guns.
For some reason, my mind instantly went to "Burgess does what Winchesdont". I hate my life.
Nice
One of us, one of us
Brilliant
"I have this short rifle, but it's not _long_ enough..."
"Why not put an entire sword on the end?"
That what they also did with the 1897 Shotguns. Very impressive.
Modern problems require modern solutions!
might have come in Handy at Little Big Horn....
@@BrassCatcher Not so modern a problem by 1878, around 1800 the British Army introduced the Baker rifle at the same time as they formed 'The Experimental Rifle Corps". The Baker rifle was a lot shorter than the standard Brown Bess musket, and riflemen were required to perform standard infantry tasks when not skirmishing so needed a long bayonet so their weapons would match the length of standard infantry ones when formed in square etc. Result was a 23 1/2 inch bayonet with a wrap around hand guard. Generally referred to as a sword bayonet. Result of this is that to this day the descendants of the original rifle regiments are not ordered to fix bayonets, they are ordered to fix swords.
Jochen Reichl The “trench guns” didn’t have a unique bayonet, they used the bayonet from the Pattern 14 Enfield/M1917 rifle which was quite long since it was for a short rifle (by the standards of the day)
I love how 45.70 government is still a powerhouse of a round today.
Been upgraded by Smokeless powder too, Modern 45-70 uses way less powder for mimicking the performance of Black powder rounds(you can by Ballisticly similar modern 45-70 in smokeless to run in old black powder guns without blowing them up) but modern 45-70, especially the Magnum and +P apparently can see ballistics that are triple or more that of the original rounds ahaha (I just did some quick forum reading for this, Not got any real specific Data to share but it's around. google had a ton of hits comparing Black powder to Smokeless 45-70)
@@vamsterr I imagine the case capacity can give a bit of room if you needed to use some thicker brass or less and slower burning powder to keep old black powder guns cleaner. I've considered picking up a modern 45.70 lever gun. Its a contest between 357 mag to match my revolver for woods/hunting purpose or just go big and jump on the thumping 45.70.
@@InexorWoW wish I could offer advice but I have a spectator interest in firearms lol Australian. Not even sure you could get something in 45-70 here without a collectors permit haha
Now to get a big ass bayonet for my GBL!
@@vamsterr I've heard lever-action are allowed. Maybe you could get a Henry lever-action in 45-70?
I do find it interesting that Australia, a continent where almost every bit of wildlife around wants to kill you, would ban guns. It seems like a bad idea.
They should have marketed the exploding magazines as a feature that offsets the loading issues: if the gun jams you still have a secondary "barrel".
Lever action by Tediadore?
@@TheWolfsnack Tediore. That's how you reload. Throw it at their faces.
Name it a “surprise mechanic of operation”
Designed with a unique powder actuated jam clearance system lol
Jam clearing !!!
This guy definitely has the most interesting career to talk about at a party.
There is a reason he is called Gun Jesus.
If you're ever in southern Utah, I have an 1881 Marlin-Burgess you can check out. In the time between posting this and now, I also have picked up a Colt Lightning 1877, and a Winchester 1907. So you’re always welcome down home.
“Problems with Remington UMC ammo.”
Some things never change.
.45-70, The only government you can trust.
That"d be great on a tee shirt.
I trust .30 Caliber Government, now known as 30-40 Krag!
I trust .30-06 government, too.
You win the Internet for today. Bravo!
Fact
When demonstrating the lever on the first gun, it looks like it's as smooth as any Swiss gun ever made. Possibly optical illusion, but man it looked smooth.
They are very smooth .
I expect the top loader was cheaper? Was there perhaps even a license fee paid for using the King's loading gate?
it ain't an 1800s carbine if your knife is shorter than the gun it goes on
That bayonet makes me feel like buying some goldfish.
Joost van Schijndel The snack that fires back
It's interesting that in the 1870s Berdan priming was considered sensitive, and in modern times Berdan priming is the kind you can bury in a spam can and it'll still work 50 years later.
Interesting tidbit about how technology changes over time.
It's an interesting mechanism. It jams, explodes possibly if you use it.. if it was French Ian would own three of them lol.
Did I miss something, I swear there was writing on the stock of one of these rifles. Did anyone else notice that?
You're right, 1:00 in - It looks like 'Burgess Arm' and something else underneath.. but between the angle, glare and old cursive, I can't make out what that said. My mind wants to read the last part as 'Apex' but that could just be me..
@@Erdanya I'm honestly surprised Ian didn't mention it and show it to the camera. Kinda odd.
I am going to guess it was added later by an owner and had nothing to do with the history of the gun, so Ian didn't mention it.
@@MrYfrank14 i dunno, it's part of the gun and therefore its history.
@@Hawk1966 - not if the last owner's 2 year old did it yesterday.
Or if the first owner wrote his name on it.
The toggle link design is like the drag link on a retractable landing gear. The drag link and toggle link design are "over center" mechanisms. They lock the linkage in one direction and prevent movement of the mechanism until an actuator drives the over center device to the retract position. Or they lock the breach closed until the lever is racked. Over center device.
You appear to have a bayonet that is fitted with a gun.
carbine is a back up for the bayonet.
Those guns are just, beautiful.
The way the action opens is so very organic. It's like a living thing.
Hawk 1966 what
@@MaBoomstick what what? The gun moves more like a living creature than a mechanical device. Weren't you watching?
Almost 2M subscribers, way to go man!
The action opens so... elegant.
Thank you , Ian .
So it jams and then explodes. Wow, I want one.
This is the most interesting forgotten video in a while!
I would absolutely love hearing Ian's thoughts on various fantasy firearms. Like the Bolters from 40K, or the MA5 from the Halo series
I worked in the Conservation Dept, NMAI, Smithsonian. They had a 3rd Model Burgess rifle attributed to Chief Joseph, Nez Pierce.
The previous Hall carbines also had a bayonets. That one is retractable or ramrod bayonet.
IAN do you have "many" lever actions in your collection? Do you have a favorite?
Excellent revue.
That's patent 15,995 for George W. Morse.
Burgess' patents are 134,589 for the 1873 patent and 168,966 for the 1875 patent. Interestingly, Burgess also had another patent issued on the same day as the 1875 patent that looks to be for a trap-door design where the door swings rearward and cocks the hammer while it moves back. That's patent 168,829
Wish they made reproduction rifles of these
I'd still rather have an M1886 Winchester Repeating Musket, but one that has a Yatagan saber bayonet instead of the spike bayonet that they originally came with.
Looks better than a Henry
I would love to own one that can shoot modern 45-70
@@FranzAntonMesmer There is a modern replica of the Colt Burgess , but it's designed for pistol cartridges such as .44-40. It's not quite the same as the Burgess or the Kennedy
oh man that pretty bayonet...
*Heavy Japanese Breathing* Veri Honorabu Raifu.
Man, there's something just so appealing about these older firearms. The wooden furniture, the subtle shine of the bare metal, the mechanics are fascinating also.
I know modern weapons are superior in terms of function and quality, but I just LOVE these clever actions, bolt actions...early firearms design is just so rad.
Beautiful Rifles!
Nice. Didn't know much about these. Had they gotten the feed system right, the US Army might have had repeaters starting about 1880. That would have been handy in the later Indian wars. Service time would not have been long, assuming they still adopt the Krag in 1892, but it would have been interesting. Burgess could have seriously outdone Winchester, as you mentioned. Great video as always. Thank you
There are days that I wish I had the money to collect some of these. Ian just keeps taunting me with rare and unique firearms. Thank you!
You had me at "Burgess". You said that the gun handled very well, but the lever action looked kind of clunky while you were opening and closing it. If it had a proper hand-loop on the lever, how smooth would it be to work compared to the 1873?
These have a very long lever throw and with the serpentine lever can be a strain on your fingers depending on how you hold it. They did away with the serpentine lever early in the Kennedy series.
So beautiful!
This guy is just awesome. He invented some awesome guns
I kept waiting for the promised story of the personality conflicts between Burgess and Whitney, and how that affected the rifle's fortunes. Sadly, it never showed up. :(
Social Distancing Bayonet.
What does the carving on the stock (at 1:02 ) say? Burgess ... something?
"Winchester is my bitch - Burgess"
Awesome thanks
I've never heard Burgess pronounced that way, my family has always stressed the first syllable.
I don't know if its an 'Americanism' but one of my (British) colleagues also suffered his name being pronounced like that by our NYC office ...
@@alanfhall6450 Maybe Ian is Canadian?
@@alanfhall6450 the same name can be pronounced differently depending on the family. it doesnt really matter though, its such a minor thing
Reminds me of the mad dash to get militaries across the world a semiautomatic rifle in the early 20th century.
Flannel Daddy & Gun Jesus in the same hour...... oh yeah
What a beautiful set of rifles,in 45/70 to boot
I love this guy
Hey Ian you should look into the RMB93 shotgun. It's a wierd russian pump action shotgun that feeds from the top like a Neostead. Just thought it would be something you could be interested in
If you want a comprehensive study of the Burgess lever action legacy, find a copy of Lever Action Magazine Rifles by Maxwell. Not easy to find and not cheap , but a gold mine of information.
Another good reference and probably easier to find is a book recently published by Dale Olsen : "The Burgess Long Range Repeating Rifle, Model 1878"
Very Cool carbine , just wish that they still made them now. I would definitely buy one !!!!!!!
you didn't mention the trap door on the buttstock? was that a later or earlier addition? Mine doesn't have a rear sight like that... it's more of a spring/low/flush rear sight. I'm assuming I've got a civilian "sporting" version
is it just me or did the bayonet installation sound like a bolt closing on an ar15
Watching that lever retract out was nothing short of a clown act and I can't stop chuckling
Hey Ian, in one of your previous videos you implied that using match heads instead of black powder was a really bad idea, well that got in interested and I came across a video on ammo channel where he used match head in a 38 special. Could you do a video on this topic ??? Please keep up the fantastic work
Afaik match heads have some potassium chlorate which becomes corrosive when burned
He mentioned that in the Confiscated Homemade Poachers' Guns from Zimbabwe video at about 1:20-1:33. He describes it as "an easy way to blow up a firearm." No explanation as to why.
Ian, what was written on the stock?
I've got a G.W. Morse serial 905 but it's in bad condition... pitting on outside of barrel and magazine tube and broken stock. markings are readable though! action is fully functional and barrel seems to be okay. been rubbing oil into it off and on over the years but has stopped showing signs of improvement. Wondering what I should do with it. Anything would help thanks @forgottenweapons
Probably a dumb question, but couldn't you avoid centerfire magazine detonation by using hollowpoint ammunition?
Better still the spiral magazine on the early Remington model 12 pump action rifle designed by Pederson
Yes, of course. But keep in mind, we're talking 1870s and the 45-70 cartridge was relatively new. Back then hollow point ammo was not all that common. Flat point bullets were developed pretty much for use in lever action repeaters to avoid the detonation problem. Once more rifles were developed to handle the big 45's , companies like Winchester offered a variety of loadings that included hollow point or "express" bullets.
very cool
It be really interesting to see how well this gun shoots and operates compared to a evenly matched model Winchester. I am astonished these were not extremely popular.
For Sparring and shooting your enemies
Question was it actually in 45/70 or 45/70 carbine which actually had same case but only 60 grains of powder
You kinda left us hanging with the Mors story. Did he won the lawsuit?
I would have expected the government to say the patent was seized as an act of war.
now get lost.
Does He (Ian McMullen) have an FFL?? If so what type, because he seems to have weapons shipped straight to him?
Does anyone know if Whitneyville armory did something similar with the polishing of their own proofmarks on their other guns? I have a Whitney 32RF pistol that has the markings so fair I need a hand lens to clearly see it.
I imagine this would have been quite popular with the soldiers. If the kinks had been worked out that is.
A repeating Gun then put a long ass saber...
Can't get any better than dat
It's kind of fun nearly all American celebrity or inventor have some involvement in firearms.
Karl going to pick one of these up?
That's what I was wondering.
I wish!
Ouch.. "Estimated Price: $6,500.00 - $9,500.00".
@@InrangeTv I mean, if I could afford it... I'd buy it for myself, that looks like a really interesting lever action, sorry Karl...
@@InrangeTv So between a 76 or one of these, which would you have gone with in a combat scenario?
How about the marlin .45-70 rifles?
Anyone else get so engrossed in the videos that you forget to hit the thumbs up?
I try to remember and hit it before I start the video but sometimes I forget.
CZcams needs an auto thumbs up option.
It seems rushing a gun to market before it is ready is the one constant in the firearm industry.
A great idea that almost works is not a great product.
Test, retest and test again.
So many things have gone wrong moving from the prototype to mass production.
You would have thought Whitney of all people would have understood that.
hey ian can i order you book to germany ? i want to buy it but i'm not sure if i can order it from germany ?
Bur' jes. First syllable gets the emphasis.
I always pronounced it "BER-jis."
Well stop it.
So did I (in general, not for this guy), and I am married to a Burgess.
*immediately searches history between Whitney and Burgess
Fun fact, every time Ian says patina, Mark Novak mutters "it's deferred maintenance" for no reason whatsoever
i own one of each burgess gun i got them from passing them down in the family and my lastnames burgess
This gives me hope the my universal m1 will be worth its weight in gold some day xD
What's the most expensive gun Ian has handled?
Fg42? The Kings lorezini? Perhaps the confederate sniper?
@@offdeadeye88I’d say Colt Walker
Why would anyone think the top-loading version would possibly be more popular? Not only do you gotta have the action open but the magazine is also WAAAAAY down there. The type butterfingered like me would constantly mess it up and have loose rounds lying around the wrong way down in the action. And even if you didn't struggle with that I claim it would be really slow. Loading from the bottom on an open action I could maybe see. You'd have the loading lever kind of in the way but that might not be quite as bad as having to stick almost the full length of your finger in the top while holding a round between your tips and pushing it in the right hole (context, people!)
Long story short: As @marvincz, I think it must've been some way of saving money/avoiding patent infringement; otherwise I can't see anybody reasonably coming to that conclusion
勉強になるよ
Seems to be a case of the customer not always being right. Should have stuck to the top loader.
So Remington UMC was just as bad in 19th century as it is in the 21st.
that bayonet on the carbine has to be the most ridiculous thing I ever saw and it must be awkward to carry and shoot the carbine. but, I would still love to have it.
a spear wth a carbine back up.
Stabbing at enemy on foot from horseback requires a longer bayonet. Cavalry typically did not fix bayonets until actually charging into melee where rifle was just used as spear. Revolver was used instead as melee firearm.
How is a saddle ring used?
Well, it was a carbine, therefore used by mounted troops.
It's the attachment point for the single point sling used by cavalry when dismounted.
So faltou a legenda em PT BR.... (Only the Portuguese subtitles were missing.)
Is the Evan's repeater from red dead 2 based off this weapon?
no there is a evens repeater google it was another repeater
So its a sword you buy with an extra gun attached.
Hmm, people only wanted the side loading version? Henry are you listening???
Where did he the idea the cavalry needed bayonets on top of swords? Did he think we needed lancers?
Military and Logic don't mate.
3:58 o.O
Weapons are one thing for us to do it you don't go to work cause of the virus just clean ur guns go planting in ur back of front yard work out play with ur kids if you have any and you should play with ur brothers these you can do at home!
Blowing fingers off of your customers isn't something a gun manufacturer is going to survive.
Can you rewiev Croatian APS-95 assault rifle?
Great fuel for my all-nighter fire
is it the same Burgess who made the folding shot guns?
Good catch
what is a saddle ring ?
That's the attachment point for a single point sling, and it's unique to cavalry guns.
That’s legit, I wanna see some lever *actions* in *action*.. pun intended