Winchester Lever Action Development: Model 1866
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2017
- While the Henry Repeating Rifle had been an serious leap forward in firearms capability, it was not without problems. The biggest single weakness of the Henry was its magazine. The tube magazine was open to dirt and debris, the follower could easily come to rest on the shooter's hand or anything used as a rest and stop the weapon from feeding, and the while system was rather prone to being damaged.
These problems would all be addressed with the addition of Nelson King's new loading gate idea, which allowed Winchester to omit the exposed follower entirely, solving a bunch of complaints all at once. The new system was more durable, more reliable, and allowed the rifle to be loaded without the awkward manipulation required by the Henry. The King improvement also allowed the addition of a wooden handguard, which was a welcome addition - it does not take very many black powder rounds for a barrel to become uncomfortably hot to the touch.
At the same time that these improvements were being made, company politics were taking shape to end Benjamin T. Henry's involvement with the company. Henry attempted to take over ownership of the company because he felt he was not profiting as much as he should, but he had assigned his patent rights to Oliver Winchester in exchange for his contract to manufacture the guns. As a result, Winchester was able to create a new company (the Winchester Repeating Arms Company) with full rights to the design patents and sideline Henry.
The 1866 rifle, which was formally called simply the Winchester Repeating Rifle would continue to use the .44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, but would be made in a wider variety of configurations than the Henry had been, including carbine, rifle, and musket barrel lengths. It would prove to be a very popular rifle, and opened the path to further improvement, as it put the Winchester company on excellent financial footing.
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Kind of funny how this weapon is so iconic of the American West, yet it was all foreign militaries that adopted it. I just don't picture Turkish or French troops wielding these rifles.
Still the turks got their asses kicked by the front load wielding russo-bulgarian forces in the fifth Russo-Turkish war, same thing happened with the french in the Prussian war. For once the american millitary had the right idea after all. It may have a fast loading/shooting but the range and accuracy was abysmall, rounds can bust your barrel if the gun has overheated et cetera.
Stefan Stoyanov
I think that may have just been because Turkey is Turkey.
@@stefanstoyanov7460 Totally not because of shit tactics and officers. Yup, totally the gun. You can have the best gun in the world and still lost to a fucking rock if you don't know how to properly use it or command your men.
@@Nyx_2142 Propper commanding skill is imperative, true. Fun fact is that most of the Turkish generals were in fact hired western military personnel. This was part of their modernization attempt. And most if not all of them were French! At the battle at Stara Zagora the French commander didn't even bothered to order his men to get in combat formation. He ordered his marching columns to just march against the Bulgarian auxiliary infantry, thinking that they'd run just from the sight of the overwhelming force. Well, it turned out to be the biggest turkey shooting at the time, pun intended. Later on the same idiot decided to pass through the mountain passage of Shipka, occupied by the same 5 000 Bulgarians and 2 000 Russians that humiliated him at Stara Zagora. Probably this move of his was made in order to take revenge on them, otherwise it is nonsensical at best, the Turks occupied many of the mountain passes and he could use them freely to relieve the besieged garrison in Pleven. Long story short, his men got slaughtered again. The winchesters had lower range than the single shot rifles the defenders had, most of their shots were landing on the rocks below, but if they closed in for better chances to shoot, they just were getting crushed below the rocks, barrels and cart pieces l, thrown by the defenders. The battle at Shipka ultimately cost the war for the Turks, their besieged forces in Pleven surrounded after waiting for months to get a relief and the victorious Russian troops marched towards Istanbul.
@@stefanstoyanov7460 thank you for your well written and informative post, i appreciate people like you who actually contribute
I will always love how beautifully simple the internals are on these old lever guns. Simply elegant.
I always thought it was more complex untill i saw his last 2 videos
The Luger wasn't invented until about 35 years later!!!
@@mkfldargfv why you complaining about the people who let him use this rifle? thank you Rock Island Auction for supporting Ian.
@@mkfldargfv I was thinking the EXACT same thing in the last video but decided not to comment because I wasn't totally sure if the luger's action had some unknowns that I may have overlooked
That's engineering, sometimes the simplest solutions work best haha
"Beyond a couple of hundred yards, the bullet has the ballistic trajectory of a brick."
- Gun Jesus, 2017
Gun Jesus.... :D
All Praise Thy Gun Jesus For He is Great, & He Giveth Thy Information We Seeketh, Forever, & Ever Amen!!!
Praise his prophet John Moses Browning and his revelation in the year 1911.
...and 1885, 1886, 1887, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1898, 1900, 1902, 1903,1904, 1906, 1908, 1910, 1912, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1935. These were all designated models of firearms designed by JMB. There were also others that didn't have a year designation in the name.
Praise be onto the name of the Prophet browning, and his disciple St. Dieudonné Saive for giving us the greatest handgun of all time, the M1935 Hi Power
Just bought a Uberti reproduction of this in .45 colt. It's now my favorite gun to shoot. Incredibly smooth and fast action, excellent accuracy, and best of all it makes you feel like a cowboy.
i need one lol
It’s too bad that the loading gate on the uberti is a turd. How’s your holding up after two years? Did you end up bending it?
@@0_1_2 I have barely shot it. But I have been quite annoyed the few times I have by how stiff the loading gate spring is. I assume that is what you mean? I haven't done anything about it so far other than using the "shotgun method" of inserting a cartridge most of the way in and then pushing it the rest of the way with another cartridge and repeating the process until the last round is loaded. But even then I have had the spring on the loading gate throw a cartridge out once or twice when I didn't have it pushed in far enough. My biggest issue has been due to the gun not having any kind of feed ramp, the semi-wadcutter rounds I have tend to not feed well (it seems to feed fine with the flat-nose ammo though). But I chalked that up to it being a 160 year old design
I never realized how simple the loading gate is on these rifles. It's amazing how it can make such a difference.
For about 20 years I've always wondered how the loading gate worked. it's so ludicrously simple I'm embarrassed to not of figured it out.
I guess that's the virtue of the inventer eh?
I'm sorry, it's a nervous tick.
*not have
+SgtKOnyx I know the feeling
I'll admit I had a few years of ignorance on this too. I always imagined some kind of mechanism, maybe using the lever to lock it in place. Truly a great example of Keep It Simple, Stupid.
thats how i always felt about extractors and ejectors until like a year ago lol
@@Taolan8472 ahhhhhhhhhhhh dont remind me of how Bethesda killed fucking Fallout, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
this is my favorite gun for O'driscoll hunting
Just a few comments... first, you're becoming the pre-eminent resource for firearms history in your own right. The term that comes to mind is "prolific", and I'm happy to report your Patreon account is the best "buck a month" I've ever spent (although I'll still do the same with/for Othias). Keep up the good work. Second, I'm hoping you do get around to an episode on ERMA. Given your attention to details historic as well as functioning/operation of subject weapons, I think you'd do Herr Geipel proud when (not if) you get around to doing an episode on his place in firearms history. Again, Ian, keep doing what your're doing.
Thanks!
Nooo.... Thank YOU!!
WHOAAAA us California boys now have a way of shooting 10+ rounds without reloading!! THIS IS STILL CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY IN CALIFORNIA.
The US should invald, and bring enlightenment.
@@sb-ant6457 Seriously, no. We're quarantine.
@@Grimmwoldds That quarantine is a miserable failure, because the infection has spread.
FuzedBox this comment has not aged well
So true
I love waking up to a new forgotten weapons video.
Original MSR (Modern Sporting Rifle). Lever guns are still just as useful (light , fast, accurate, reliable and tough) today as they were 153yrs ago too.
Is this the Winchester which is called "Yellow Boy"?
Yes.
Forgotten Weapons excellent video! Any chance we will get to see the rest of the biographical history videos of different companies? I was really excited to see the one on colt and would love to see more.
This channel is probably my favorite channel on youtube. although I live in the UK and I don't have too much hands on experience with firearms, I really enjoy shooting. I find the history and development of firearms very interesting, and Ian does a great job of explaining this, and it's easy to see how passionate he is about guns in every video.
All hail gun jesus.
Oh, yes, as an American I understand. The engineering and/or history in firearms design is just as interesting as any use, depending on the viewer.
You guys in the UK can buy certain firearms without a ridiculously expensive license and a year of training right?
That’s at least what I heard.
We in Germany have to go through a 3000€ licensing process which includes the training you need to attend.
Training is definitely a very good thing, but the prices are very problematic.
Also hunting is only allowed in private forests and not everyone has at least 250.000€ laying around to buy a forest.
If you’re lucky and know a person with a forest you can pay him money to hunt in his forest, but having those contacts is quite rare.
Guns and hunting in Germany is still a thing for the rich, like in the old farmer and servant times where nobody was allowed to take anything from the forest.
The United States are so much better where everyone can hunt for food, not only the richest people.
That’s what freedom and democracy should look like everywhere on the world!
Not like here in Germany where it still feels like you’re serving a master, which isn’t a local Lord anymore, but the government that’s suppressing our freedoms.
Before Hitler we could at least own some firearms like in Austria.
Hitler took them away from every German, and all the other following governments loved this idea of Hitler that the people of Germany should have no rights to own guns, for whatever purpose.
Besides the rich of course like always.
I really like the design and the look of the Winchesters, both rifle and carbine. They look pretty simple but are also very nice to look at in their way. But I was not aware that they hold 17 rounds. That was a hell of a lot back in those days.
Loving this series, Ian! As a kid, my favorite western was The Rifleman, starring Chuck Connors as the fast shooting hero. I believe he used an 1892 model Winchester. Can't wait to get to that episode!
Nothing much honourable about Oliver Winchester,having bought out the Spencer business,and sacked the labour force. He wasn't above conning his prospective investors either. But he did make them rich.
I think my favorite recollection of a 66 winchester that I read was by Finn Burnett. He said that in early 67 outside of Omaha,NE, him and another man got into a shootout with some lakota. During the fight one of the natives dropped a rifle. When they went to pick it up it was a 66 carbine. First kind that they ever saw according to him. Goes to show the gun running ring was strong in early 1867
The most intriguing part is how simple, but effective guns like the Henry- and Winchesterrifles can be.
The whole line, beginning with the Volcanic pistol up to to the 1896 Winchester made for imperial Russia makes a small, but very fine collection.
Ian, I love your video's. You must have a Doctorate in Firearms History. Thanks for educating us all.
Hey Ian that's my 1866 carbine I put up for consignment with rock island. Thanks for showing it off.
The Winchester '66 and '95 are my favorite leverguns. Both revolutionary and beautiful guns.
Ian, have you thought of doing a video on the Luger 1906 rifle? I know you wrote an article about it, but it would be invaluable to have actual video of one and its operation. there isn't even one video and only 1-2 images available. Maybe you could try to get access to one the next time youre in the UK, I believe there's one in an Irish museum. (and one may or may not belong to Interarms in Virginia, I read that on the Forgotten Weapons site comments)
RebSike I wanted to ask for the same thing
I hope we'll see this video someday
your wrong
Interestingly Winchester stamped an H on the bottom of their 22 rimfire ammo many years later in honor of Henry.
Whenever i see or heard about this gun ... my thought always is "The Rifleman"
their is a quote out their..from the period...something like...
"no civilian man needs the firepower of the Henry rifle"
its VERY similar to what people say about semi auto 30 round black rifles....
Now what got me hyped for this auction is a pure Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mark III
Loving the deep dives into the development of various weapon systems in multi-video series. Thanks!
Love these development videos. I always thought there was a spring behind the loading gate. Did not realize it was spring steel. Didn't know the full patent and company history either. Sounds like Henry over-reached a little, and Ollie Winchester was pretty shrewd. Great video as always. Thank you
Yep. Patent law protects investors, not innovators. It was true then and even more true now.
Ian McCollum taking over the work Ian V. Hogg started in keeping my interest in firearms well up.
If you are interested in old American weapons and might be anywhere near Chattanooga TN spend a couple of hours, or more, at the Chickamauga national battlefield in Fort Oglethorpe GA. They house the Fuller gun collection which includes over a hundred mostly civil war Era weapons. The collection includes a coffee mill sharps, a revolver rifle and many other unique specimens. FT . OGLETHORPE is just across the state line in Georgia easily accessible to I 75. No cost. The collection is in the visitor center. The battlefield is also a nice day trip.
Favorite series yet! Thanks so much for doing Levergun Genesis. It's almost like you are catering to me personally, first the SA80, then the Winchester leverguns..... could Colt Police Positives be next??? ;) Fantastic as always, keep em coming!
Excellent presentations, very knowledgeable, and articulate. One of the very best gun focused presentations out there
Lever action is my all time favorite rifle. Learning soooo much.! Great series!
Ian, I have repaired most of the guns you show on your channel. I must say your knowledge is incredible. You do an awesome job explaining these old guns
True
Always thought these were oddly beautiful guns, another great video.
Gorgeous firearm, cheers Ian!
It kind of seems to me like they cut Henry a raw deal.
Seems more like he got greedy and shafted himself.
Both of both I think but the lesson henry should have learned was a bit of something is better than all of nothing.
@@seansimpson4472 Or, more cynically, when you're dealing with money men, if you don't let them screw you a little, they're more than happy to screw you a lot.
@@ZGryphon especially at that time
capitalism, baby !
Beautiful rifle! I just got a remanufactured version of this and I'm glad to see it's so close to the original! The saddle ring is missing on the new Winchester M66s, though, I wish they included it!
Awesome video series. The Henry rifle although obsolete is still a fun rifle to shoot and the history of its development makes for an interesting story of engineering and business decisions.
Lately I've been looking into the lever action competitors to the Winchester series of repeaters, like the Marlins and later Savage and Remington. I would love to see some more info on those company's repeaters.
Wonderful video. I have always loved lever guns and have a few of my own. They look beautiful and shoot great. Maybe not the best gun ever, but it is my favorite.
Favorite Forgotten Weapons series yet! Can't wait for more!
I wish on rd2 you could change the barrel lengths of these guns :/
I had to chrome the receiver to make it look more like a Winchester '94
@@1lovesoni yeah that would be a good gun, kinda would ruin all the other guns thkugh lol
Any chance you could do a series on the Marlin lever action development? I'd be interested in seeing what is taken from Winchester and what is original to the Marlins.
I always go back and Watch again. I Have Several of the winchesters in Beautiful Condition. I am a Gunsmith and Have my own store
I frequently restore others Guns. I always try Numeric for authentic part, manufacture my own if not. Funny thing is most problems are not cleaning and oiling. Thank you for the great presentation.
Love these old western type of guns. I hope you can do more weapons from this time period as there just really interesting.
Thank you Mr. Henry for making it all possible.
great video , Ian, I want a lever action so much, cause, the rifleman, wanted dead or alive,etc..
I didn't forget. This rifle has been on my want list for years!
Sehr gute Dokumentation. Viel gelernt über die Geschichte dieser schönen Gewehre. Wir nutzen die 1866, die 1873 sowie die 1894 bei unseren Wettbewerben und Meisterschaften. Greetings aus Krautland!
Great overview of the Winchester 1866 and its history. A couple unusual features on the guns in this video. First, the rifle has been fitted with sling swivels, possibly aftermarket. Second, the carbine has a rifle butt instead of the more common carbine style butt.
Wow, he didn't say "yellow boy" once....
which is very nice
Maybe the sales to the Ottoman empire are the reason why we've got plenty of Lever action guns here in Bulgaria... Our revolutionaries had 2 each.
And don't forget that the battle of Plevna(Pleven), where these guns distinguished themselves with their rate of fire, is also in Bulgaria...
Ironically, and this is the case with many Old West type guns, there are far more replicas in the world today than were ever made by Winchester, and you don't even have to get it in rimfire!
Really enjoying the series
These rifles are just pretty, they look nice and have enough historical signifigance as a collectors piece. id love to own something like these.
Great video. I enjoy shooting history, as our forebearers experienced it. My 60 y/o eyes are beginning to tire (I've had a good run) and am moving into tang sights. Since these were made till 1898, anyone seen original examples of '66s with peeps? I've invested in a few but hesitant to place on my repro.
The old familiar tale of the inventor getting screwed and the shrewd and unscrupulous business man reaping the rewards
When firing black powder cartridges, particularly, in the Henry rifle's the combo barrel-magazine system it becomes quite warm/hot to handle by hand. The First Model Winchester (M-1866) rifle's cylinder-style closed magazine tube with wooden forearm solved that very issue for the shooter.
Thank you Mr. Ian McCollum!
I love this series !
Really enjoying this series, thank you. (My wife will not thank you though, as I'm sitting here binge watching these instead of getting the housework done!)
Just another comment or two, on Henry's design..... He (Henry) was a contemporary of Hugo Borchardt, who (Hugo) had spent some time here in the US before returning to Europe. Is there any truth to the belief that Borchardt may have been inspired by Henry''s toggle action to develop his C93? If that's true, then Borchardt may be the father of the toggle action pistol, but Henry would then be the grandfather. And, as regards the problem of the magazine follower on the 1860 Henry (the "Henry Hop" you call it).... I wonder what stood in Henry's way to develop a wooden forearm to enclose the offending follower in its travels... and shield the shooter's hand from a heated barrel in the process. Looking at my own Winchester 9422 (same general idea), there would have been other ways to deal with the problems of the original tubular magazine slung under the barrel obviating the need for the King's patent loading gate. 20-20 hindsight I suppose.
Wish today's so called Henry company would add the King's Loading Gate.
Well both Uberti and Winchester manufacture replicas of this particular version of the rifle. I have a Navy Arm/Uberti Henry 1860 and honestly I'd rather save the extra money buying the italian replica. It's just as smooth and is a fraction of the price.
You got your wish, they introduced that a little bit ago
Finally they have
They do. You just have to buy specific models that have it, and they're generally more expensive.
@@N-i-L Note ... this comment and thread is 3 years old. Yes, Henry listened.
I legit just searched for this, and a new video came up. Wow.
thank you very much for that Video i love lever action rifles
Thanks for the vid sir.
I remember the 1866 in Hell on Wheels, I loved Cullen Bohannon.
Great show
Call me crazy but you should number this series of videos.
Starts at 1860 and goes up so they're kinda indirectly numbered
Of course you commented this 2 years ago and have probably figured that out
And yes, very nice. But it is good that at the same time the lower tube can be opened in front to be loaded from there or if there is a blockage to pour the cartridges on the ground or in a box.
I can’t imagine how big this rifle was back then most rifles were single shot henry rifle aside and Spencer’s rifle this rifle was a game changer.
love watching your videos, a lot knowledge and information, and to me you don't have an annoying voice either
Heck it i'm in mood for history. I just wanted a video about any of the winchester rifles because red dead redemption. But yea i need to watch the whole playlist.
I have 3 original Winchesters rifles 1873 ,1886 and 1894 and a Uberti 1866 reproduction my favourite is my original 1873 saddle ring carbine model 1
I don't know if the Winchester 1866 or Henry 1860 rifles are 'forgotten'. While they aren't as big as the 1873 model, they were fairly well known and very popular at the time. I heard somewhere that the .44 Henry rimfire round was still being produced as late as the 1930s even if the rifles themselves had ceased production decades before.
Those French soldiers who were issued one of these in 1870 must have felt invincible.. what an amazing weapon!
When you talk about the safety you did not mention that there is a trigger block safety that is released when the lever is squeezed against the stock/ frame. At 14:32 on your video you can see the pin that sticks down out of the frame. If I am correct this 1866 has the same trigger block safety as the 1873 has. When you grip the gun ready to fire you are squeezing the lever against this pin and releasing the trigger block safety.
I wondered how this got passed over, too.
Early 66s did not have that out if battery trigger safety. That "pin" you are seeing is just the hammer spring screw protruding a bit. That safety wasn't added until the 73 was introduced.
I wonder if any modern 22 rimfire rifles have dual firing pins. That seems like a good idea to increase reliability. Especially with some companies marketing CCW rimfire options.
However, Henry 1860 also made a closed charge cycle. Because only the front parts of the tubes are directed upwards in a vertical position and the lower tube is opened in front and the cartridges are released and they fall quickly, it is loaded faster by pressing through the front door of Winchester 1866
The toggle link made them so smooth, yet, they were inherently somewhat weak. The trade off, though, was in the designs favor because of the smooth, rapid function. The primary use of the rifle did not really require a massively powerful cartridge.
Absolutely the original "Assault Rifle".
Let that be a lesson to people, greed screws you over.
thanks Ian just want more (cowboy things).
Man... give me one of these in 45 and I would be in love
Great video 😊
I had an interest in Wild West Rifles since I was about 15 years old
Ian will you back that Kickstarter of playing cards with old west firearms on them and a full size cartridge picture?
Growing up in a time when cowboy movies and television shows were the norm, every kid knew about the Winchester. How many do today?
Just the kids who played Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 like myself.
The Lancaster Repeater
Was there any practical difference between the round and octagonal barrels?
Winchester rifles were great rifles and iconic by merit. These were the working rifles being rugged and reasonably accurate. While not sniper rifles. they had a maximum range of about 300 yards. A good shooter could hit with accuracy at about 100 yards . Their durability and easy maintaining made them the TImex of rifles.
6:50 I think you said Henry twice when you meant Henry and then Winchester
Oops.
Forgotten Weapons I recently saw something called a "Pirlot Brothers Winchester Copy" from, I believe, the 1870's. I would love to see your thoughts on one of those if you ever get a chance. This one was marked 44cf.
TheGoldenCaulk I
These videos are amazing. We all knew exactly what you meant and had no doubt about your knowledge, in fact I learn things each time I watch one of your videos Ian and I’ve been a collector for many many years. Sharing of knowledge makes the hobby that much more fun. Happy Fathers Day.
I own a Winchester Model 1866 Kings Improved Level Action in 44.40 WCF. I would love to know its history. The one I have looks in better shape than the ones shown. If you want I can send you some photos of it as well as part of the serial number. Thanks for the video.
Is there a difference between rounded or octagonal barrels besides cosmetic?
Basically, the octagonal barrel is somewhat heavier and more rigid, which some people like. Other people like the feel and handling of the octagonal barrel. For sure, it is easier to lean an octagonal barrel against a table edge than a round barrel, something that would be important to many people who are intending to carry this thing around everywhere they go.
Thanks.
Emilio Moreno One of the biggest differences is the way octagonal will heat up slower, and the bigger area for heat dispersion. Especially helpful after doing a "tube dump".....lol.
As Othias in his EXCELLENT series, C&Rsenal, during the war, everyone was producing what they had, and the North had to produce A LOT of rifles. After-wards, the down-sized military was out west where EVERYTHING had to be packed out. And the government was spending on "more important things". (I'm trying to be delicate.) The 'PTB' didn't want the troops to have multi-shot rifles in fear they'd use it too fast.
Edit: I am amused that the cavalry ring dates to the middle ages. Good ideas last the test of time it seems.
What I have always wondered: why did the military worldwide not see the potential advantage of the lever repeating mechanism as opposed to the bolt one? It is so much faster and u can stay on target that it nearly becomes a semi automatic rifle.
For example, those Winchesters carbines would have been the perfect weapon in ww1 for all strom- and assault units.
Any ideas?
The short range of repeating rifle cartridges was not ideal. Plus bolt action rifles were easier to cycle in the prone position.
@@WindowLickingDeer Yes, probably. well, there were more powerful cartridges designed for repeating rifles later on. But the last point really seemed to be the reason. Unflexible military thinking. If a ak47 can be shot in prone position it shouldnt be much of a prob for a repeating gun either.
A classic looking gun.
I had the privilege of handling an original 1866 saddle ring carbine yesterday at the gun show. If that old girl could talk... amazing piece. The gentleman wanted $6k for it and it was in worse shape than the one in front of you. One day I’ll find the perfect ‘66 for me.
Question: Is the finish we see on the carbine's lever, hammer and 'safety' a product of the casting process (they look like cast iron), or instead what they have become after corrosion? I can fully understand those parts having a rough finish for the time but, there again, the finish on the brass parts is so smooth that it suggests they may have machined smooth, flat-planed parts for the 'black' metal parts of the platforms.
You are correct when you say corrosion. Originally it was hand finished smooth casting.
Vince, thank you very much for the response and answer.
Are you going to someday do a video on the model 94?
Will you be covering the 94s?