Winchester Lever Action Development: Model 1876
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 06. 2017
- While the Model 1873 was a very popular rifle, its pistol caliber cartridge did leave a segment of the market unaddressed. Winchester wanted a rifle that could chamber the larger and more powerful cartridges popular with long range hunters, and the Model 1876 would be that rifle.
Early attempts to enlarge the 1873 action to use the .45-70 Government cartridge were unsuccessful, for two reasons. First, the cartridge in its 45-70-500 infantry configuration was simply too powerful for the toggle lock design that had been the core of all Winchester’s rifles back to the 1860 Henry. In addition, the elevator mechanism used to feed the rifle had to be sized to a specific (and fairly precise) overall cartridge length. The variety of different bullet weights used in the .45-70 did not affect use in single shot weapons, but did cause problems for Winchester’s repeater.
The solution was for Winchester to design a new round for it’s scaled-up Model 1876. This was the .45-75, and it used a relatively light bullet and a bottlenecked case similar to the general design of the .44 WCF from the Model 1873. This bottleneck improved obturation, preventing powder fouling from leaking around the cartridge case and into the working parts of the rifle. This was not strictly necessary though, as new chambering of the 1876 would be quickly added, including the .45-60; a straight-wall shortened version of the .45-70 Government round.
While it did not blow the doors off the factory like the 1873 had, the Model 1876 was a popular rifle with its intended audience, with tens of thousands of rifles sold to men including Theodore Roosevelt.
Cool Forgotten Weapons merchandise! shop.bbtv.com/collections/forg...
/ forgottenweapons
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow
Note that Winchester's modestly-powered, handy rifles ('73, '92, '94) sold circles around their heavy-hitters ('76, '86, '95)... I suppose that most shooters realized that, if you're firing a veritable cannonball, carefully aimed, from long range, the rapid-fire capability of a lever gun really didn't come into play.
Rapid fire with powerful cartridges could be practical for big game hunters who went after dangerous game like grizzly bears. Teddy Roosevelt was very fond of the 1876, and later the 1886 in .45-90 as well as the 1895 in .405 Winchester.
But realistically, how many men were going to do that? Sport hunting dangerous game was very popular in the 19th and early 20th century, but it was still mostly restricted to rich people and some frontiersmen. For hunting deer or black bear the .44-40 was entirely adequate. And most poor farmers simply stuck to whatever guns they had, including caplocks, up to the 20th century. For humans obviously the .44-40 was more than sufficient.
Also, the cartridges that even the big bore Winchesters were chambered in were relatively modest in power compared to typical British hunting calibers of its time. Even the .50-110 Winchester was only comparable to the British .450 Black Powder Express, which the Britons considered suitable for lions and tigers, but not for things like elephants.
I feel like the reason why the 94 did so well was that the 30-30 almost perfectly bridged the gap between the "pistol cartridges" and the honking 40 and 50 cal predator/buffalo/moose calibers. Most people only needed/wanted one, maybe two guns, typically a shotgun and a rifle, the 30-30 was powerful enough to drop a deer but could also deal with larger varmints and other medium sized game. Not necessarily ideal for small or large game but it could do the job, and that's what people needed.
"Only" sold 64,000 rifles. Winchester worked in big numbers.
They were The rifle company back then.
Well, Hugo Borchardt was a Winchester employee around 1876. Though it is assumed the development of the C93 was based on the Maxim machinegun toggle lock I wonder how much influence Henry's desgin had on both Maxim and Borchardt.
Ringo Wunderlich, I wondered the same!
Dude 6
My uncle in Alberta has one of them RCMP 1876 Winchester's in his collection. It's been in handed down through his family. I got to handle it years back. It's really cool rifle.
NWMP. They didn't become the RCMP until the 1920's, years after they got rid of the 1876 as a service rifle.
Still in canada or did it find its way stateside?
@@rogainegaming6924 Last time I saw it was around 20 years back so not sure.
I live in Alberta. Now I want one!
These development series of videos are great
I loved the ones about the SA80.
And I really love these ones about the Winchester lever actions.
Please do more series like these if you ever get the chance.
Winchesters, Enfields....the famous and the infamous. I love the forgotten. The Bergmans.
lol i don't think you need to be so specific... just saying "Ian! Please just keep being Ian and do the things you like!" and the awesome, detailed, quality, and informative videos and series will flow naturally!
Im hoping for a Mauser Rifle series
It is always cool to hear about how even back in the day you had so much choice and options when it came to configurating a weapon you wanted and needed for your job or recreation.
I love the full length stock since seeing one on Tom Sellecks Crossfire Trail where he buys a custom 1876 Centennial. Awesome.
Watch Steve McQueen in Tom Horn. Gun steals the show! Mr. McQueen was a U.S. Marine and could shoot.
With all that customization, these rifles were the AR-15 of the old west.
i know Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a trick to get back into an instagram account??
I somehow lost my account password. I love any tips you can offer me.
@Johnathan Jesse Instablaster ;)
@Ignacio Hugo thanks for your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm.
I see it takes a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Ignacio Hugo it worked and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
@Johnathan Jesse Happy to help =)
This has been a really interesting series. Looking forward to more.
Loving these series where you follow the development of a family of weapons. Please keep these sorts of series coming!
I'm glad you got a '73 up there for comparison. You really can't get a feel for how big the '76 really is without the comparison.
The 1876 is one of my all time favorite rifles!
The Winchester Lever Action rifles are so gorgeous rifles. Thanks Ian for your interesting and informative videos on them. I really like your content :)
Rian, thank you watched your series on winchester lever guns..awesome thank you. Worked for a gunsmith has a youth been collecting never sense.Really enjoy your videos. Robert
Hi Ian,
Just noticed you're have 494K subs according to this posting. I'd like to see you with a half a million, so I joined the party. You now haz automatic thumbs up on every vid from this watcher. You offer a quality product and that should be rewarded, in my opinion. The historical depth is *always* fascinating.
Thanks for all your hard work and I'm REALLY digging all of the historical information you bring on each piece. I watch them from the beginning to end, sometimes twice if it's a model I like or have developed a sudden like for while watching the video.
Thanks, Dude!
Winchester’s lever action rifles are the best looking rifles ever made. They’re timeless and built to last many generations. It’s hard to find a pre-64 (model 94) in good shape and at a decent price in south Texas. People down here have been using Winchesters as a part of life since they first came out.
holyshit! im from alberta, super cool to see something from home! nice work Ian
Really liking this series. Always liked the history of these guns.
im loving the winchester videos
Great series. Keep up the awesome work
hello Ian from Italy, thanx for your wonderful videos, I always go seeing when anything new comes out.
I've got one Mod. 1873 and a couple Mod. 1876s - one is in cal. 50-95 Express, early October 1887, great condition and 22" barrel w/ half magazine. It has British proof marks, I like imagining it could been owned by a English officer when in India or Malaysia... those "cat's guns" were sought after by them, and/or professional hunters of thin-skinned game.
Must not to think back to my efforts and sacrifices in order to get it, but so many dozens books/magazines and hundreds photos through the time (and worn eyes ah ah) so I absolutely had to try buying it from a gunshop owner here in Italy. Utterly worth of, of course living in this strange italian universe I can only be a quirky guy dealing with an 'absurd' interest - by now I've got accustomed to that so I'm happy with my guns, and the hell with all other envious blokes...
Regards. Franco.
loving the development series
Great series!
I have one of these 1876, the stock is stamped NWMP. My father bought it in Alberta in the late 1940s for $10. Kind of fun old rifle. Firing pin was broken and a fellow milled a new one for me. I have never had any cartridges for it but my gunsmith says it is in working condition.
Great series. I'm looking forward to the 1892, 1894 and 1895 in the series. Will you be doing a similar Marlin series?
Great vid series Ian!
The '76 is one of my favorites ..it is just a massive piece of history. Maybe not the strongest design, but totally adequate for the cartridges it was chambered in, and certainly adequate for taking big game at reasonable ranges.
Very cool Carbine carried by the Mounties
I like how in the game of Hunt: Showdown, Winfield M1876 Centennial (which is essentialy this very gun) has the same serial number as the Model 1876 from this video.
Why were the original Winchester lever guns never chambered in 45 long Colt? Considering the popularity of the Colt Single Action Army revolver, it seems like a good way to share one ammo pool. Colt made a revolver in .44-40, so why didnt Winchester make a rifle in .45 Long Colt?
Nathaniel good question
Business rivalry primarily. Although you can find a lot of period gunsmith conversions of 1873 Winchesters to .45 colt so it was clearly something the market desired.
Probably because Winchester were a direct competitor of Colts in the ammunition market, and didn't wish to encourage people to buy Colt anything, let alone ammo. Winchester wanted to sell the complete package, rifle and matching ammo - not give Colt a commercial advantage by making a rifle that could use Colt's cartridges.
Nathaniel I suspect they didn't want to put .45 Colt on the barrel just like Colt didn't put .44 WCF on their revolvers and instead put 44-40. Would have been nice if they had come to a gentleman's agreement though.
The rim on the original Colt .45 was relatively small, and there were supposed to have been functional issues with extraction in Winchesters. Standard rim size is slightly bigger now, and tolerances are better, allowing modern replicas to be chambered in .45.
this is just a random thought I had. is there anybody out there 3d printing dummy cartridges? when Ian mentions some of the more obscure rounds I wonder what they look like to scale. extra points if the bullet is removable from the cartridge.if this is something that is available Ian you could film a bunch of videos of you handling the dummy cartridge before hand and add the appropriate one in post production.
Adam H That would be pretty neat.
Most of them you can see images of just by googling, but it would be pretty cool to see 3d printed ones.
Adam H or just find a real cartridge and drill a hole in the brass if its a forgotten cartridge most cartridge collectors have extras to sell
Paul Alexander i could be completly wrong but hear me out. i think it would be neat to see a person interact with a 3d object which would help give scale,assuming all other variables are controlled. if the bullet could be separated from the casing that could also illustrate the volume of the projectile and show real life ratios, my main point is it would be cool to see the scale of cartridges especially the obscure ones without having to stop the video so I can google some still images .
Don't know about some of the more obscure rounds, but the 1876 ammo is still available, as is the brass and moulds. I have one in 45-75WCF and get the brass from Starline Brass for reloading. The 45-60 is simply a cut down 45-70 Government, the 50-95 is also available.
that 1876 NWMP Carbine is about the sexiest looking Winchester lever gun ever. 1886 and 1895 were better guns, but the 86 just always looked homely, and the 1895 is not very comfortable shooting, IMO, with big bore rounds. (the in infantry rounds like the 7.63x54 it's fine). But that full length stock on a rifle with the 1873's proportions in legit rifle calibers? YES PLEASE!
I really like the Winchester series. I look forward to the 86 especially and 95 will be interesting too. I hope there might be a 71 just because.
Ian, I hope you're aware of the legacy you're forging; in 1000 years, when people are using lightsabers, or mind control to destroy one's enemy, and they want to know some history about those primitive, projectile weapons, you're going to be the most available, therefore quoted, source of information.
I'm jealous. But appreciative. Thank you for what you do
The first time I've ever been this early to one of Ian's videos.
In the book " The Troubled Life And Mysterious Death Of Johnny Ringo " by Kevin Hogge among the personal effects found on his body were 1 Colt revolver Ca . 45 , # 222 containing 5 cartridges ; 1 Winchester Model 1876 , No . 21896 , containing a cartridge in the breech and 10 in the magazine .
are there any plans to do the 1887 shotgun? It would give you a good moment to talk abiut the 1-handed reloading Arnold used in Terminator 2:)
Yes, but not in this series.
Thanks for the vid sir.
I'm a simple man. I see new Forgotten Weapons video, i hit like.
lol
me too
the best way to start my day.
Since it mostly is can you have a video on the model 70 pre 64 Winchester?
Hearing winchester reminds me of shaun of the dead
Crow -Bar fun fact: That was a Winchester 1866 'Yellow Boy'
The price estimate on that North West Mounted rifle seems really reasonable to me. As a Canadian it would be really nice to have in my collection. Alas my safe is full right now.
Just curious to know if a lot of reloading was done back at that time or were the cartridges just inexpensive enough to just buy outright?
This is a late response, I know, but there were some people that did do their own reloading. Not with the presses that you see today but Winchester sold a reloading tool and set that essentially looked like a beefy pair of pliers that could decap, seat primers, mold and size the bullets, and also seat and crimp them. Look up ideal hand reloading tool.
@@Sigibrand In the previous video in this series he specifically mentions that it was $5 for the reloading kit, he also mentions that it makes a lot easier for people out in the wilds, primers are the only thing hard to come by away from civilization.
Love your videos, and as an Albertan I want that gun :p
Curious... 'stupid-huge' is a new hotness in revolver niches today, in 1876 or so would it have been feasible to produce revolvers in .45-60?
ya, i know my modern marlin 336 (luckily its actually a marlin and not a Remington...) can use any length bullet
i took my rifle apart not to long ago to clean it.... didnt really seem obvious on how it does it...
but i think an extension on the elevator holds the next round..... and is slightly under tension to stay in contact with the round...
the neck is smaller than the case head.... so it works every time
I love GUNS
Fantastic story!
Love my 76, in 45.60. Still shoots great, an orginal
I am going to assume that the difference between the 2 bullet weights for the 45-70 is greater than 38 spl and 357 mag. I have fired a Uberti 1873 with both without issue.
From what I gather from watching this series on Winchester, the Winchester rifle after 1873 was the AR-15 of its day. Would that be a fair assessment, due to its customization?
Z M that is essentially what Karl from InRangeTV (Ian is part of that channel too) says about Lever actions in general.
GODOFGUITAR2112 *Karl
I think my phone autocorrected that one on me, thanks for letting me know.
GODOFGUITAR2112 No worries ;)
I wish he did a video about the material used to make these rifles
I have that rifle on top. Only different. 1876 45/75 round barrel rifle. My GG Grandfather bought in new. Still runs. My son is the 5th generation to shoulder that monster.
Can't wait for the 1894
How popular was the Marlin 45-70's? I have always loved lever action rifles. Something about the action and the calibres really makes me happy. Just like toggle lock's like the Luger.
Well, it is still being produced today, so I assume it's a good, usable weapon.
Both you and Karl have commented on how sharp the sideplate was on the Henry and I believe the 1866, did Winchester ever make a change to make them a little less user un-friendly?
Considering the history of these, I'm surprised they are not worth a lot more!
Truewest magazine has alot of black and white photos of people with Winchester 1876 rifles and Winchester 1886 rifles. Also a couple photos of people with Merwin and Hulbert Revolvers.
There is something I would like to know (and maybe it would be good for a follow-up series). How did the development of 'pump action' guns affect 'lever action' development and why does it seem like pump ultimately won out over lever especially in the Shotgun world??
By the time repeating shotguns were desirable, Browning had come up with a pump action that he felt would be better for shotguns, but Winchester insisted on the lever action, so he slapped together the 1887, before going on and designing what would become the 1897. Were it not for Browning's contract requiring that design, lever action shotguns probably would never have happened in the first place, so it's less that pumps won over levers for shotguns and more the lever shotgun was something made out of spite. Might be why every single 1887 reproduction I see on CZcams is a finicky mess.
So why do you think pump rifles never really becomes a thing is it purely because bolt action felt better in a rifle?
From what little I've been able to find, the only pump action rifle of the day was the Col Lightning and it apparently wasn't as reliable as the lever guns it competed against, which can be a major factor in the success of a gun.
As for bolt action vs pump in a rifle, I think it may have largely been because of two things. The first is the development history. By the time the Colt Lightning came about, the slide-action was a mere 40 years old compared to the bolt action, which was around 70; the first bolt gun, the Needle Rifle, had been in used by Prussian armed forces for about 50 years and the action had seen many improvements since.
The second is, I think, the fact that at this point, World War 1 is a mere 20 years from kicking off, but there have already been hints at what's to come with the recent unification of the German Empire and the arms race between them and Britain over who had the better navy. And since WWI would eventually become trench warfare, the relatively recent slide action rifle was probably seen as problematic compared to the bolt action and it's pretty easy to see why: if you rest your rifle on the edge of a trench (or anything, really), a bolt action only requires the shooter's dominant hand to move in order to operate the bolt, whereas a slide action requires moving the off hand to cycle the action, which could mean moving the rifle off point of aim; not really a good thing if you're trying to lay down a volley, which was standard practice at the time.
Of course, I don't know for sure and all this is mere speculation on my part, so take it with a grain of salt.
Clifford Bryan john Wilson locking strength was somewhat of a problem
As Dubsy mentioned the locking strength in most pump mechanisms isn't very impressive. Most pump rifles tend to be pistol calibers, usually relying on a single locking lug. A bolt action, however, can be more easily scaled up with beefier components and more lugs to handle full-sized rifle cartridges. Another advantage of a bolt action (with full size rifle cartridges) is primary extraction. The lever on a bolt gives the shooter a lot of leverage to extract a fired cartridge, while a pump mechanism would provide little mechanical advantage.
We now see the dust cover working but still hoping for the walk through on how.
The dust cover rides on a pair of rails on the top of the reciever and there is a little hook on the top of the bolt that opens the dust cover when the lever is moved forward to let the ejected case come out. It is only closed manually.
Good job, yet again...
Did you ever think about telling whether or not the different guns could be shot? And whether or not cartridges are still being made?
To me , that would be information that I would need to know before I placed a bid...
Thanks and keep up the good work. ...
I'm sure you could custom make ammo if you had to, but I think guns this old would be bought purely for collectible value. If you wanted to shoot a lever gun, the recreations are much cheaper and come in much easier to find ammo
GODOFGUITAR2112
Yes,, I undestand where you are coming from, and museum pieces are too nice to shoot. But it would be nice to hear about the availability and history of the cartridge. Back in the day, I used to reload and shoot Damascus shot guns. Possibilities are what I was wondering about. ..
Thanks for the reply. ..
your job so interesting :)
you should cover the model 71
Great videos - and very interesting! However, you talk of pistol grip stocks. How on earth do on fit a pistol grip on a lever action? Or am I misunderstanding something?
In this context, pistol grip means just a slight curve instead of a straight wrist.
@@ForgottenWeapons Ok, thanks, makes more sense than a M16 style pistol grip... ;)
Keep up the great work, and thanks for the reply
What if they made the elevator longer, but made the forward end cut diagonally. That way, with short cartridges, the second one that crept back would slide off the diagonal cutoff forward (back into the magazine tube)
Link in the description? Those were the good days.
How many was made of this?
Winchester 1876: The Search for More Muzzle Energy.
I've watched you talk about Winchester Lever Actions every day for the last (4?) days. Same time tomorrow?
A 50-95 cartridge? Did it come with a muzzle brake and recoil compensator?
It wasnt actually all that powerful, because despite the large powder charge and caliber it used a rather light 300 grain bullet. It had to use such a light, short bullet because the Winchester 1876 action could not accomodate a longer cartridge length. Recoil wise it should be comparable to the .45-70, which used a heavier 405 or 500 grain bullet.
For this reason the old Black powder loads included the weight of the bullet, 45-70-500 and such.
At any rate...how about 19.25% ? Loving this video series.
Can you still fire these today ?
My uncle would love to have that mounted police rifle I hear he has an impressive collection of Winchester rifles (maybe he even already has one).
so, where does John Moses Browning come into the picture?
Not until the '85
What about the .50-110 wcf?
Not in the 1876...
The only rifle to have a film named after it.
45-70 was also long enough for the lever and toggle would have as made the action too tall.
The 76 also came in 50-95 .
Hey Ian, are you also going to be covering the 1887 and 1895 as well?
When you pick up this gun you are holding history in your hands.
The 1876 was also called the centale model
I handled one of these monsters in Idaho nearly fifty years ago. It would not only take down a deer, but the deer behind the deer.
Best rifle manufactured until STG 4. Intermediate cartridge, high capacity, decent rate of fire.
“The Centennial”.
I would like to have a reproduction to shoot and an original w/a 28” octagon barrel or longer, 30” or 32”, chambered in 50-95.
These were essentially the AR platform of the late 1800's
epic
You have return'd! :O
Glad to see you back.
First spef Fan you created an account just to comment spef's comments?
INSPECTEUR JOHNSON possibly.
Entropy_ nope.
Didn't Winchester also make lever-action shotguns? I seem to recall something about the stagecoach riders using 10 gauge lever actions. Sure would be a formidable weapon....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1887/1901
1887 Model Winchester Shotgun
Thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you!
gosh winchester really took henry's mechanism to the bank
cool a mounty gun, would like to have it if i was in a position to buy guns
1886 next?
Sorry auto mispell... Ian
Why are guns so interesting to me?
The U.S military up to this day is still analyzing the military value of those rifles...
This was the type of rifle in the Tom Horn movie, wasn’t it?
Yep
the Calvary Version was 350 gr. The infantry was 405. call your buddy Karl with any questions...
The variation in the .45-70 loadings were not the bullet weight, but in the powder charge. It was 70 grains for the infantry and 55 grains for the cavalry. The change from 405 grain to 500 grain bullet weight were applied wholesale for both infantry and cavalry loadings, with the powder charges staying the same, when the US govt decided to go for the heavier bullet for better long distance performance.
he should showcase the cartridges along with the guns.
I think if I moved to USA and bought a rifle it would have to be a 76 or a 73. At least, the first one would be haha
Bo Zo it seems like a great hobby, and doesn't seem any more expensive than cars as a hobby! I live in Australia and its certainly possible to get a gun licence but it requires a lot of effort
Ami the only one who caught the Freudian slip....lolol